So this is it, right? This is where the genre peaked?Nothing, not even from the rest of Cave’s library, comes close to the tightness and expertise on display with Ketsui.
>>12550472>tiny misleading hitbox for your ship and the bullets>crippling slowdown>little ship variety with minor changes between them>autistic, restrictive, artificial score system>giant clouds of bullet vomit that are highly restrictive of movement and routing>giant screen-wide player shot that gives little incentive for pointblanking or even positioning>zero stage hazards>stage backgrounds plays no to minimal role in gameplay; could just be replaced by a black void and barely lose anything.>no powerups or resource management; even bombs are primarily only ever used as a reactionyep, must be CAVEslopNo, Ketsui is not best of anything. Play an actual shmup for once in your fucking life you fucking faggot, something like Rayforce, or Raiden II, or Sonic Wings, or Darius II, or 1944.
>>12550472All of these CAVE games are just the same recycled asset flip garbage, DP and DDP were labors of love and innovations for the genre (for better or worse), but at least they had passion and care behind them, then they just regurgitated and churned out the same shit year after year with just some new nonsensical score system. Look at Toaplan how each game plays distinctly different and then compare that to CAVE where each game is just a shitty reskin of DDP.
>>12550610>little incentive for point blanking>in KetsuiWeird bait
Hijacking this thread, what's a good shmup for someone who never played any?
>>12550625Touhou 6
>>12550625Mushihimesama is approachable Gradius is a classic and very fun (and the punishment for dying once is basically a restart so it teaches you survival)R-type is very cool and almost like a puzzle game with controlling both the ship and the little option force ballDarius has some amazing boss designs (mechanical giant sea creatures)Rayforce and Raystorm have excellent soundtracks, incredible dynamic camera angles for their time, and aren’t super hard for beginnersDodonpachi DOJ is a classic and probably the most recognizable Cave game (bullet hell)
>>12550625Here's the official /shmupg/ approved list, accept no substitutesGOOD SHMUPS FOR BEGINNERS (BEST VERSION NOTED):>Armed Police Batrider [AC] (emulation)>Batsugun [AC] (emulation)>Blazing Star [AC] (emulation)>Daisenpuu [AC] (emulation)>DonPachi [AC] (emulation)>Darius Gaiden [AC] (Cozmic Collection)>Gate of Thunder [PCE] (emulation)>Gradius 2 [AC] (emulation)>Gunbird 1 [AC] (emulation)>In The Hunt [AC] (emulation)>Jamestown+ [PC] (Steam)>Out Zone [AC] (emulation)>Raiden 2 (original rom version named easy" in MAME) [AC] (emulation)>RayForce>R-Type Leo [AC] (emulation)>Salamander [NES] (emulation)>Sine Mora [PC] (Steam or PS3)>Soldier Blade [PCE] (emulation)>Sonic Wings [AC] (emulation)>Tiger-Heli [AC] (emulation)
>>12550657Why is Sonic Wings always recommended!!! Is it a good game!!!! Is it a good series!!!!! Is Sonic Wings Special a compilation title or should I play 1-3 and Special!!!! What the heck!!!
>>12550625Star Parodier for the PC Engine CDI think it's a good choice for a complete beginner because it's on the easy side but it's soulful
>>12550658It's right there, Sonic Wings 1 for AC (JP version)
>>12550730But the rest of them?
But isn't Alice a woman's name?
>>12550737They're good too, they're vertizontals and have more focus on scoring over survival. I just prefer the raw feel of the first game and it's a lot better at teaching fundamentals to newcomers.
>>12550657this is a terrible list
>>12550864You are a shitter retard with no clears. Your opinion is not relevant.
>>12550867I am a shitter my only cave clear is DFK BL, but even I wouldn't recommend half of these games for beginners and im going to give you my opinion anywayWhy Batsugun instead of specifically Batsugun Special for a noob? and shouldn't you note that they should be doing Normal Course on Batrider? Why Jamestown and Sine Mora? They aren't terrible games, but neither one are very traditional in a shmup sense. Zeroranger, Angel at Dusk, or even Gunvein would be a better indie choiceDonPachi is a weird Cave entry point, sure it's the first Cave game and an important shmup to play, but this list is a list for beginners, Mushi, Futari 1.5/BL, DFK or Deathsmiles would be much better choices. desu no idea on the older horizontal stuff, they are probably fine idk
>>12550915>I am a shitter my only cave clear is DFK BL, but even I wouldn't>I am a complete retard with no experience and no skill but here's my opinion That's not how this works. Being a retarded shitter doesn't give your opinion more credibility, it gives it fucking zero. Your opinion is irrelevant, now shut the fuck up and get some clears shitter.
>>12550915>Why Batsugun instead of specificallyBatsugun SP fucks the hitbox to a little tiny pixel like every other bulletslop game out there with level design that was never designed or balanced for that, so to compensate it adds a bunch of bullshit suicide bullets to later loops (plus the color palette is just ugly). Batsugun is a much more complete experience, SP is like a shitty romhack.>shouldn't you note that they should be doing Normal Course on BatriderIt's for a beginner, not a retard. The test menu rank trick is plenty enough to make the game reasonable without completely neutering half the experience.>Why Jamestown and Sine Mora?Because they're two great indie shmups that play distinctly different, are trying new things with the genre while also nailing the fundamentals, and have a lot of accessibility options and various game modes instead of just autistically reciting methods, so they allow you to much more organically learn the game. Bonus is they piss off poser faggots who only play CAVEslop and think that all shmups must conform to the narrow standards, ie (You)>but neither one are very traditional in a shmup senseAlmost like the list is meant to offer a wide variety of shmups to allow a beginner to learn the fundamentals and learn what style they like, and not just be a list full of churned CAVEslop and CAVEslop clones. >DonPachi is a weird Cave entry point, sure it's the first Cave game and an important shmup to play, but this list is a list for beginnersAnd DP is one of the easier CAVE clears? There are a million lists out there sucking off every CAVE game in existence and acting like they are only shmups that exist, this is meant to explore the other 99% of the genre, and even DP, and to an extent DDP, is of the old CAVE style that feels distinctly different (and most people skip right over them)
>>12550967It takes an OUNCE of understanding shmups to realize that list of is shit, anon. >>12550993>Batsugun SP the first bullet hell>"bulletslop">Jamestown and Sine Mora>nailing the fundamentals>DP because it doesn't quite feel like a cave game yetI thought I was supposed to be the retard
>>12551032You are the retard, yes. Everything you said there was wrong.
>>12551039You can call me a retard all you want, but if this is the opinion you're shoving down potential new players throat it makes sense why you guys don't have a general anymoreI know you're likely pushing 40 but people are enticed by bullet hell,"Caveslop" and 2hu, not normie reddit shit like fucking Jamestown. You don't need to include Gradius, they already know what it is. You don't need to cater to bullet hell entirely, but at least acknowledge it exists and give good on ramps for it.
>>12551049>shitter retard with zero clears who only plays CAVEshit>dood people (read: me) only care about CAVEshit, you should just make your list nothing but CAVEshit like every other shitty generic list!!By the way, Gradius is way more niche than almost any fucking CAVE game. >give good on ramps for bullet hellAgain, you imply that all roads lead to bulletslop, as if it's inevitable that anyone who plays shmups could only ever want to play bulletslop and that any other shmup is just a stepping stone to eventually playing exclusively shitty CAVE games and CAVE clones, because that's how **(You)** got into shmups and (You) have zero experience or context with classic shmups. There are hundreds and hundreds of great classic shmups from arcade to console with high skill ceilings, unique gameplay, fun mechanics, great boss designs, satisfying score systems, killer art and music. Expand your fucking horizons instead of just playing the same fucking shitty generic regurgitated reskinned CAVE games, holy fuck.
>>12551070I'm not even sure how to respond to this since you're comprehension is so low.>shitter retard with zero clears who only plays CAVEshitI've mentioned 3~4 non cave games (which I have 1cc'd btw) but you guys hate cave so much for some reason insist that anyone that mentions cave only plays cave>By the way, Gradius is way more niche than almost any fucking CAVE game.What the hell does that have to do with anything?>Again, you imply that all roads lead to bulletslopDear god, you really are retarded. My ENTIRE POINT was that bullet hell is what gets most people interested into the genre in the first place it is the first stepping stone. How is that so difficult for you to understand grandpa? Classic shmups are cool, I agree, but people aren't going to dip into the genre for Gradius or R-Type anymore.
>>12551095>you're comprehension is so low.>What the hell does that have to do with anything?lmao, zero self-awareness, nothing going on in that big ass skull of yours>My ENTIRE POINT was that bullet hell is what gets most people interested into the genre in the first place it is the first stepping stoneAnd your entire point is wrong. People think bullet hells are just the defacto shmup experience and that there is nothing in between the very unforgiving, extreme power-loss, memorizer checkpoint shmups like R-Type and single pixel hitbox bulletslop late CAVE games. That list is some of the best of classic shmups of different styles that are also accessible while not being baby tier, force you to learn the fundamentals of shmup play in order to clear them, and allow you to find which style you prefer. CAVEshit and its derivatives are only one small subgenre that somehow got propped up as representative of the entire genre by shitters and posers with zero clears. (You) yourself even admit you have ZERO fucking clears outside of a single fucking CAVE game, and yet you still have the audacity to act like you have any credence to talk on this. Fuck off retard.
>>12551109I am 100% right on this and it's not even close anon. The proof is literally right here: >>12550625
/vr/ is so insanely casual and full of disinformation now, not even reddit is this cringe
post clears shitters
>>12550610>>giant clouds of bullet vomit that are highly restrictive of movement and routingyeah
CAVE enjoyment tiers>FunKetsui, DOJ, Esparade, Mushi Futanari>Okay but a little mindless DFK, SDOJ, Espgaluda 1/2, Mushi>Kind of boring Deathsmiles, Donpachi, Dodonpachi, Akai>Too stressfulDangun Feveron>Nah don’t botherPink, Pork, my anus
