is it possible to mane an RPG with true narrative choices without sacrificing the quality of the game as a whole?
>>3833769No
Maybe when AI gits gud.
>>3833784Why not you stupid bastard
>>3834008Putting side from how ill-defined 'true narrative choices' are, predetermined writing can only offer so many choices. and distinct paths. True reactivity like from a live DM that can accommodate derails, failures and handle them with established gameplay systems is not feasible. You either lower the whole size/scope of the game significantly to the point that the progression and impact of the choices you make as an RPG matter very little or lower the production values of anything that is not writing significantly.Most likely both.
>>3834014/thread
Some of New Vegas's quests are surprisingly in depth and account for things most people wouldn't think of doing even in their second or third playthroughs.
>>3833769>mane
>>3833769Of course you can, as long as you invest the necessary resources.One thing that makes it very, very costly is voice acting, even with a silent protagoinist, although that will obviously be a lot cheaper than having a voiced protagonist.
>>3833769>>3833855You kids are gonna have a lot of fun when you find out about virtual tabletop platforms and tabletop RPGs like GURPS.
>>3834159>GURPSI have the OG Munchkin set with the OG expansions. Such a fun game in college. On the contrary, I'm probably never gonna get into tabletop shit because that requires "friends". If I had ones that could play games with me, then I wouldn't be here.
>>3834014>not feasibleCertainly not with the way games are currently being made.
>>3833769yeah but you need to be comfortable with the idea of developing large swaths of content they will not see.
just once I'd like to see a game implement route 0 where you just fuck off and do nothing the game asks you to, and the world keeps getting worse as you do. Just for shit and giggles.
>>3834374>large swaths of content they will not seeFactually incorrect. Completionism is a disease.
>>3834378agree with you, but thats why i say its just something you have to be comfortable with. because the gamer who will see it all is out there and he's your customer for a game like this.many games want to offer moral choices but arent actually aware of the completionist. they only comprehend the normgroid, so the paths end up being virtually identical because the normgroid needs to feel like he saw all the content
>>3834375They will just do a Quest for Glory 2 and have the world blow up after some days
Just take the skeleton of the Stanley Parable and make a serious game out of it instead of a meta-narrative redditfest.
>>3834380>thats why i say its just something you have to be comfortable withYeah. I got you, anon.
>>3834375thats a new game plus route in soul nomad. you just say "fuck your call to action I'm going to fuck shit up with the powerful cursed sword you gave me" and you proceed to do that
>>3834332There are literally hundreds of communities around the internet where people are "looking for group" to form a group of people to play tabletop games with.... You have only yourself to blame for your isolation. It's 2025.
players don't want choice anyway
>>3834008Not as stupid as you, as he knows. Games are shit for a single reason: funding is scarce and suits demand high return.
>>3834014Not him but maybe if you design a game like a sim and strategy game with unreliable actors at base and then drop player in. So failure or success of ''narrative choices'' (whatever that mean ffs) just mean change of actors and new directions.
>>3833769Define narrative.Reality is that gaming is a poor medium for large-scale, epic and thoroughly written stories because it's going directly against player's agency - the most important part of any game ever.Best you can get are some silly RNG-based story engines with thin layer of gaming (think Dwarf Fortress or lol The Sims) or games that focus on giving player tools and environment for emergent narratives and pretend-play (rogue-likes, blobbers, simulations with rpg elements).
>>3833769No. You try to do too much at once, specific parts of the narrative become underdeveloped and a mangled mess comes out. Fallout 2 proves that well.
>>3837640>because it's going directly against player's agencyExplain.
>>3837779>be bg3>successive waves of writers re-write story into convoluted nonsense>present illusion of freedom of choice, within a narrative framework that requires heavy railroading to function>illusion of freedom of choice crumbles if player makes choices contrary to what is necessary for plot to happen, to the point of "but thou must!" or the DM handing out arbitrary game overs>player agency disrespected out of necessity, because the devs painted themselves into a corner, and the plot would otherwise fall apart>profit>???
>>3833769we did it decades ago
>>3837779You can't write a compelling story while giving player nearly absolute freedom to choose what and how they gonna do. I mean, in theory you can but in practice you would literally need to take into consideration everything that player can do at various parts of the game and write dozens if not hundreds of scenarios for every edge case.What if player will ignore all main and sie quests and instead spend next 120 hours roleplaying as a baker in random town? Or a fisherman? Or a prostitute? What if they nearly complete the main quest and decide to retire into a hut in the middle of nowhere? From player's perspective all these choices are equal if not greater than killing Yoh'Mam, The Immortal Lichlord and his 12 henchmen (one of them is cousin of your wife's ex-boyfriend and priest of fallen angel of doom preparing ritual of end of the world in secrecy) and it's you job to give them interesting stories attached to them.
>>3838221>What if player will ignore all main and sie quests and instead spend next 120 hours roleplaying as a baker in random town? Time limits. At a certain point, the big-bad evil washes over the world and destroys everything.
>>3838221you just follow the fromsoft design pattern that they have successfully used to give the player a robust sense of choice with minimal overhead since literally fucking evergrace: all the plot happened already, protagonist is a janitor of some sort cleaning up the remnants
>>3838240Isn't that just Romancing Saga basically. You're free to fuck around and then BAM! ELDER ONE!
>>3838240Yeah, because people definitely aren't seething about even most generous time limits, like the one in Fallout 1.
>>3838374>Yeah, because people definitely aren't seething about even most generous time limits, like the one in Fallout 1.I only recently learned that they patched out the second time limit in FO1. Cowards. That was what made the water caravan an interesting choice.
>>3838221To be honest with you, it only takes a little imagination to think of what could happen if the player does X, Y or Z. You don't need an endless number of paths. Having only like 5 or 6 and tying them together would be more than you usually get my a factor of about 5 or 6 times. The problem is that studios aren't allocating resources to the writing or the gameplay. They're pumping all their money into graphics, VO and marketing.
>>3838174Great example, anon.
>>3838973Thinking of what would happen if the player does something is trivial, but actually having the game react to it in a meaningful way isn't, especially if prior choices need to be taken into account. Focusing on that means you need to heavily limit the scope of the game in other regards, like how the Way of the Samurai games offer a lot of choices and freedom, but they take place over the span of a few days within a small location.>>3838374It is a shame that so many people have a negative knee-jerk reaction to time limits. I think every RPG I've played that had them in some form was improved by their presence.
>>3838374Little bitches gonna bitch
>>3839237>but they take place over the span of a few days within a small locationI'm...ok with that?
>>3838374Just do Groundhog DayIt has been done
>>3838174>>3838974>Implying
>>3833769>an RPG with true narrative choicesyes, definitely. it's a basic reputation system where if the player becomes a "liar" by choosing deceptive dialogue options, or a "failure" by failing quests that have time limits or survival requirements, then it becomes very easy to modify the story by pruning branches.you didn't save the shop keeper's son in time, and you didn't even bother to recover the body? he'll hate you and kick you out from your shop. ta-da, narrative choice.is your character aligned with evil? when the shop keeper kicks you out, you can have the choice of attacking him; then a further choice of forcing him to submit and sell you items at a discount, or to steal from his shop while he's unconscious, or to kill him outright.of course it's easier to type this than to actually do it, but that depends on->without sacrificing the quality of the gamethe phrase "skill issue" comes to mind. really, if you can't manage to add a few branches and keep the game at the same quality, you might be an idiot. the above stated example could be done in RPG Maker for fuck sakes, it's literally just a matter of effort/time.the one case where it actually would be difficult is in making a high quality 3D game because the fidelity of everything "has to" match with things like voice acting, textures, and animations, etc etc... unless you do the smart design work before hand, and make a lot of it modular or easily scripted.and you know, work within your fucking bounds.> "the investors want more ray tracing in the graphics!"> why> "JUST DO IT!"> ok here's an image to show the investors> (the image is identical to the version without raytracing)i don't care if you're giving me your money or not... don't tell me to add useless graphical shit to my game, non-devs.
>>3833769sure, it's definitely more expensive to develop, and a lot of the branches you're developing will never be seen by a given player
>>3833769Already in progress
>>3833769Why not?Even small changes in the world based on player choices add so much depth to the game and it's not that hard to do.Developing standalone storylines can be expensive and time consuming, but it's possible without losing quality. (witcher 2)World states are the trickier part. Here you need a framework that allows different groups and factions to occupy the same location based on player decisions, but nothing that hasn't been done before (kenshi).The simplest solution is to open or close paths and shortcuts of the story based on previous player decisions.Say you helped a merchant and at the end he hides you from pursuers, allowing you to skip a big and hard stealth part, or turns you in if you robbed him but didn't get caught right away.Usually the big changes happen towards the end of the story, where you don't have to rebuild the whole world and it's more about defining the ending.There are also slides at the end, like in good Fallouts, where you get a total of your previous decisions for settlements, factions, and cities. Not as cool as seeing it live, but better than nothing.And also small, unusual decisions, like "what if I shoot the hostage myself" after which all the bandits run away in horror, and you hunt them like in some slasher with the thoughts Holy shit, they really thought about this! (fallout 4)Not everything should affect the long run, but if each situation has at least a couple of solutions, it means a lot to the player.
>>3840822Sensible chuckle.
>>3833769I don't see why not
>>3833769yes
An actual choice system would mean you're losing 50% of the content everytime you make a choice.That's assuming a binary choice. If you have three options, then say goodbye to 66% of the remaining content, etc.
What you're looking for OP would be Shadow The Hedgehog with more rpg mechanics.>>3837620So something like Rimworld?
>>3833769What's those true narrative choices you speak of? Does Age of Decadence have them and does it suffer from them?
>>3845157>be Larian>claim there’s 17,000 ending permutations in bg3>release game>there’s like 3 or 4
>>3845221but you see, there are like 10 throwaway lines that make different combinations between them in those!
>>3845153>can't figure the mystery early>can't prevent the tribunal>can't kill anyone who isn't scripted to die some freedom
I like this thread. Never really thought about it, but "choice" as a primary mechanic is actually a very bad idea for gaming, and art in general.Remember when Hollywood let the entire internet "choose" a movie, script, casting, plot, etc.? We got the forgettable faggotry of>Snakes On A PlaneTherefore, letting the audience make decisions isn't a good idea bcuz the audience is retards who can't enjoy what they claim to want anyway.
>>3845594Midwit take
>>3845594It's more like the audience will choose a joke because they know, deep down, that voting doesn't matter and that those in charge of the system will do what they want to regardless.
>>3833769https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJJaGSV75y0Yes if you have some or all of the follwing: - a lot of money- smaller scale- don't consider stuff like graphics and voice acting as part of the quality of the game so it's not a problem if they don't exist or aren't as good
