Why did Square abandon ATB for Final Fantasy X?
Because it was time to shake up the formula before it grew stale
>>3834886Because CTB is simpler to design and balance.There's a reason they went back to ATB for X-2, and it's because they finally figured out how to get it right after all their previous failed attempts.
>>383494013 is also an ATB game>>3834886the real question is why have they never been consistant since then? If FF16 and 7r shared a battle system it would sell more copies of both.
Because ff10 is shit
>>3834886X is ATB with weighted actions and pausing in during choices
Because ATB is just a worse version of turn-based combat
>>3834974ahhhhhh fuck you dude im thinking of clive with the 7r menu and it's feeling like extremely ludokinographic. fuck fuck i wish they did this. they should go utterly bananas with crossover shit for 7r3. just throw any pretention of this being any thing other than "final fantasy ultimate" right out the window. "everyone's here" approach where you can basically recruit the entire dissidia cast each with their own 7r style movesets. you could balance it by just making their weapons not have materia slots
>>3834886>Why did Square abandon ATB for Final Fantasy X?They wanted people to play X more strategically, instead of rushing through decisions with ATB
>>3835203>they should go utterly bananas with crossover shit for 7r3. just throw any pretention of this being any thing other than "final fantasy ultimate" right out the window. "everyone's here" approach where you can basically recruit the entire dissidia castThe entire ff7 “extended universe”, beyond the PSX original, was a terrible mistake.
>>3835049>X is ATB with weighted actions and pausing in during choicesYou just described something that already existed before - ATB.ATB always had weighted actions via the casting time you'd need to wait out after queueing up an action. The characters didn't just sit there mumbling or assuming a battle pose for nothing - that was the time cost you paid for using stronger spells or attacks.The "visible" ATB only tells half of the story, and this secondary queued action ATB only started to be shown in subsequent releases of IV, as well as FFX-2 where it was more formalized.
>>3834886FFX just uses FFT speed-variable turns which is what ATB really is with a coat of marketing bullshit. FFX was just them turning off the bsery
>>3835301totally agree which is why they should retcon it all in the most hilarious way possible, a mega all-franchise cross over that btfos every lorefag
>>3834886Because ATB was always a garbage system. Literally everything wrong with the gameplay in 4-9 comes from how it destroys the pacing and tactics.
>>3834886ATB has always sucked. any turn based game where you can't get up for dinner during a boss fight is shit.
>>3834974>the real question is why have they never been consistant since then?Even though FF games are immediately recognizble even without being called as such (for example, Bravely Default is a Final Fantasy game due to many iconic trappings) they try to avoid mainline entries from being considered "Final Fantasy #.5" by remixing a recognizable formula.
>>3835321Difference is that in CT systems you can't just wait, you must take action.
thank fucking god ATB is dead. that shit was annoying. your combat sucks if I'm fighting the clock and the clunky menu instead of the actual enemy.
ATB is awesome. I was disappointed X didn't have it, but the CTB system is still good.
>>3834886Because as FFX proves, turn-based is better. In fact, FFX has one of the greatest turn-based combat systems ever.
>>3834886ATB is inherently trash. The speed stat still affects how fast you get turns. The only difference is that unlike a turn-based mode, you'll waste those turns while enemies attack you while you're navigating a massive spell menu. FFX-2 had some interesting mechanics tied to ATB, but the system is total fucking garbage. It's actually slower than a standard turn-based combat system.
>>3839308trouble finding the button to pause it?
>>3839438>. The only difference is that unlike a turn-based mode, you'll waste those turns while enemies attack you while you're navigating a massive spell menuYou're aware that basically every ATB FF game has a wait mode that freezes time when you're in menus, right?
>>3835049>>3835321ATB already had weighted actions/speed variable turns. different spells had different cast times. For example, I used to play FFIV (GBA) and meteor would take an eternity to cast while flare would come out faster than the average 4chinner losing his vcard>>3839308pause button exiists anon
>>3839441That turns it into inferior turn-based combat with extra steps, where you still waste turns as your full party simultaneously gets theirs, and the enemy keeps jabbing at you while in between menu navigation. There's no argument for ATB being anything other than a poorly-designed gimmick.
>>3839445>goal post movingOkay whatever, I'll follow along. The idea behind ATB is that it makes battles more dynamic by forcing you to be aware of what you're doing and to have an element of time to them. Will their action bar fill up and let you use an item before x character dies? Will you have enough time to fire off a spell to kill that enemy before it gets another attack in and thus kills your guy? It's up in the air.Now I like pure turn based more as well but to pretend ATB is pointless and that players don't play different depending on if it exists or not is just stupid and pausing in the menus doesn't take away from anything I listed above.
>>3834886Because the ATB system in FFIX was dogshit.It's clear devs were were bored of it and ready to try something else. And yes I know that X was in development before IX was released, but I'm sure they knew what was happening with IX, internally.>>3839382Right.CTB systems also don't have the dynamic where you're meant to use feel/intuition to estimate how much time you have until something happens, eg a state change. EG if you queue up lightning now, will Kainazzo gather the water before your lightning spell lands? You can wait until he gathers the water, then queue your lightning, but if you do that, he'll probably get off a Big Wave. Or you can cast ice and hope he doesn't gather water before spell lands and use the next wizard to stop the big wave. It's all based on the flow of battle and how time feels to the player.In a CTB system, you'd just look at the turn order and plan accordingly.
>>3839448nice to see someone on /vrpg/ actually understand ATB for once.
>>3839445That's like saying speed chess has no merit. Thinking fast is different from thinking and different people enjoy either or.
>>3839448Everything you listed could be done in a turn-based system, and it would have the added benefit of not needing to wait for a bar to fill up before you're allowed to input commands.
>>3839690>Everything you listed could be done in a turn-based systemNo, it wouldn't.The intuitive nature of real time and perception of its passing simply cannot be replicated in a turn-based system. In ATB, you can make predictions based on this intuition. Because it is intuition, decisions can be made quickly on the fly, leading to a more kinetic experience while including an element of skill and risk that would not be present without the active time element. In a CTB system, either you hide the turn order and the CT bars, turning the risk into a mostly-random guess, or you show the info which eliminates the risk and leads to more plodding, deterministic decision-making.
>>3839437It's the only menu based combat system I actually like for being a menu based combat system.
>>3839445>There's no argument for ATB being anything other than a poorly-designed gimmick.This is such a sweeping generalization. Also, your use of "poorly-designed" explain the elements of the design that you dislike and use examples and how you would fix it. If you cannot, then it's not a matter of the design, it's your personal taste. ATB was used in what, 6 games? I won't say it's implementation is perfect in all of them. Haste for example works differently in various games. I think 7 actually utilizes ATB the best, since the game pushes for a cinematic feel. With active timer count downs going at various points. Being able to hold your turn while the enemy acts has advantages. Such as continuing to get hit, since it can charge your limit break even more. And there's other various materia combos. None of this works outside of ATB.
Finally giving this game a chance for the third time and this time I want to finish.Are the Celestial Weapons and Sigils (and by extension, the superbosses) worth the absolute tedium they are? I've heard horror stories of what it takes to makes a single character stats and getting these weapons powered up.I mainly want to experience the game to finally say "I played FFX".Does X-2 have tedious stuff in it too?
>>3839794>Are the Celestial Weapons and Sigils (and by extension, the superbosses) worth the absolute tedium they are?No.I mainly want to experience the game to finally say "I played FFX".Play FFX. Finish it. Enjoy it.
>>3835321Nope
>>3839734>Such as continuing to get hit, since it can charge your limit break even more. And there's other various materia combos. None of this works outside of ATB.You can continue to get hit in CTB. Other examples?
>>3839806other examples? Im not one the saying ATB is poorly designed. Point out its flaws. I like CTB as well, so I am not about to pit the two against each other. However, you should damn well know what you just said does not work the same. You cannot simply continue to get hit in CTB in the same way as in ATB.
>>3839794>Celestial Weapons+ Sigilsif you really like the game and want to see your characters become overpowered and do big damage, yes, but only Wakka, Rikku and Tidus's are what really matters, Auron's and Yuna's are is relatively easy, Wakka's is very tedious due to blitzball, Tidus' can be done under 5 mins or weeks if you're unlucky. You don't need to bother with the rest. I have not finished X-2 so I can't say much, but apparently it's very easy to miss 100% and it requires you to follow a guide if you want to, I'd call that tedious.
>>3839794FF post-games / superbosses are almost never worth the insane amount of grinding they require desu.
>>3839809>Im not one the saying ATB is poorly designedNeither am I. Do you have other examples or not?
>>3839794>Are the Celestial Weapons and Sigils (and by extension, the superbosses) worth the absolute tedium they are?Finish the game first without grinding, at least. I never did the optional stuff.
>>3839734>ATB was used in what, 6 games?Chrono Trigger also.
>>3839734>I think 7 actually utilizes ATB the best, since the game pushes for a cinematic feel.I think 4 is the best. Although the least polished, it's also the one where the the devs clearly had the most passion for the (then-fresh) idea and where you get the most emphasis on the ATB-specific elements given the relatively barebones ability spread and the 5-person party.If I had to tierlist the ATB combat specifically (taking into account both the engine and the content):S: (none)A: 4, 7, CTB: 5, 6, 8C: 9>>3839806>You can continue to get hit in CTB.It's not the same at all. There's no CTB game (at least, not an old-school one) where you can just wait in the exact time increments you want before doing something. And waiting isn't implicit, you have to pick "wait" at each turn as it comes up to take damage. This is way more tedious than just doing nothing and letting the enemy keep attacking.Do you really just not fucking know how the FF7 combat system works at all?I notice that you haven't responded to a single one of my posts about the ATB/CTB distinction, because I carefully articulate the role of the real-time element. You just keep going after other posters who don't take the time to spell out in exhausting detail the exact difference between the real-time version and the charge-time version. You incorrectly claim it's the same thing then ask for more examples like a smug faggot.
>>3839837So no examples then.
>>3839842Wrong. Multiple examples given in the thread are valid including the one I just explained.Being retarded isn't funny.
>>3839837>S: (none)Bro, your Final Fantasy X-2?
Trying to play through the final fantasy games right now. Loved 5 and 6. HATED 7 and 8. Haven't tried 9 yet. Playing this one for 2 hours....I should hate it. It's cheesy as fuck and tedious, but it's also kind of endearing in its own way. It's like playing in an Nsync video or something lol. Also graphically it's some black magic that they pulled this off in 2001.I prefer the turn based system. ATB is like being stuck in traffic. You have to pay attention but you spend most of your time just waiting for shit. It's stupid. Other than some of the dungeons in V none of the games even require you to fully understand it. FF games are so easy you can kind of just bumble through them with a few potions and call it a day.
>>3839448>moving goal postsNo. The "idea of ATB" does not represent reality. It's turn-based with extra steps. It is and always has been a gimmick.
>>3839922>just blanket dismissing every point with 'no!' The autism is strong with you, huh?
>>3839932I find that ironic. This "blanket statement" is entirely accurate. ATB is turn-based with extra steps. The idea of ATB doesn't represent what the execution of it is actually is. It's a dogshit system and it's never been good, hence why they dropped it. You, ironically, are showing signs of autism.
>>3839946This is you btw
NTA but ATB is just trash. It's just turning fast menu navigation with a dpad into something with gameplay relevance. If the games with it weren't always so easy that it didn't matter and you actually had to navigate dpad menus quickly as a skill test that could end in death and time wasted people would see it for what it is.FF X-2 style "ATB" where you can at least pre-select actions while other things are happening is just the most basic rationalization of ATB to try to make it a sane and coherent system. As traditionally implemented ATB was never anything more than a gimmick to artificially increase a sense of engagement from dumb kids.
>>3839922>It is and always has been a gimmick.Correct, it's a gimmick with specific effects that lots of retards ITT like you fail to understand or appreciate.
>>3834886Why did there need to be a reason to "abandon" ATB? Final Fantasy is an anthology series, so there's not an overwhelming reason for each game to have the exact same gameplay. I don't see why there had to be any kind of "philosophical" justification for the change beyond "we wanted to do something different."It's not like ATB would have significantly improved the game. The game's problem is that the random encounters that are really easy and take forever due to the slow unskippable animations. Replacing these will a smaller number of more difficult encounters + allowing the option to skip or speed up attack animations would have made the game a lot more enjoyable for me. As it is, I've only really enjoyed the boss fights since that's the only time I've needed to use my brain.
>>3840020I haven't played a JRPG without a fast forward button set in like 20 years
>>3840165That just means you've played TB games on emulators for 20 years
>>3840181Yes?
>>3840165Based. I feel like the super slow animations are one of the few aspects of older games that actually didn't "age well." It would have been really cool to watch them when I was a kid back in the 2000s, but the novelty has faded.
>>3839827Other examples of what? What are you saying and hoping to have clarified if you're not the one that said it's poorly designed.
>>3839837It's been a while since I played FF4 and wasn't that into it, so I just don't remember aspects of it use in ATB too well. 7 I specfically recall lots of things that happened "in real time" and battles not pausing that. As well as haste, slow, and stop magic being heavily used in it. I was one of those people that actually utilized berserk characters. The Lucky 7's thing is also insane.
>>3840270Most 2D rpgs never had this issue and if they did would usually be due to hardware or dumb/failed programing reasons. Its when everything went 3D is when things started to slow down. This is why classic or classic styled dungeon crawlers are so much faster than normal rpgs. They don't rely on attack animations, hit animations, victory animations, or any kind of animation. Loading screens from entering and leaving a battle + a slow as fuck results screen even when you ran away from battle or maxed out your levels. All the things that slow down battles the most and are common in rpgs. Fast forward is a band-aid that can't really fix this unless games start offering x100 fast forward or better yet, just skip.When you enter a battle in a dungeon crawler, its like flipping a light switch. You're already ready to select your commands and do whatever. Everyone was too busy gawking at pretty graphics to realize how slow these games were getting.
>>3842003>Everyone was too busy gawking at pretty graphicsOr in other words, enjoying the video part of a video game they had bought and popped in their playstations.Maybe old men who have emulated games for 30 years have a different perspective. But honestly, if you can't take your time enjoying a video game without fast forward, maybe it's a sign to try something else.
>>3842075Striking a balance between spectacle and the speed and responsiveness of gameplay has always been important. For example, playstation games in general were criticized for high loading times, compared to previous generation consoles (and the N64). Square worked very hard trying to reduce the burden and disruption of loading times in FF7. They did a great job, although the load times (eg between zones) are still worse than previous FF games. This is a legitimate complaint although most find the delays a worthwhile tradeoff in return for the large number of beautiful, pre-rendered zones.If a game wastes a player's time due to developer incompetence or laziness, there is no excuse. Drooling retards babbling about "attention span" have no valid point. One can have a debate about the tradeoff between spectacle and efficiency. In FF7, the Bahamut animation takes about 30 seconds. That's a long time, but the animation is really cool. But if you've played the game 10 times that spectacle may start losing its appeal, hence fast-forward.But there's no debate about delays for no reason at all. In FF9, there's a lot of time in the battle where there's just nothing happening. The player is just waiting for no apparent reason. There's nothing so obviously better about the FF9 battle system that would justify the delays. Eliminating them is an absolute improvement with no downsides or tradeoffs.
>>3842310Yea. There's a sweet spot for sure. FF7 is carried away with the summon animations. They are amazing. Still, there's a reason FF10 allowed you to skip them. You see it once, you don't need to see it over and over. You can always turn it back on to watch it again. 10 is one of the last FF games with incredibly well done battle animations.
>>3842310All within reason. When someone starts complaining about basic animations, I start wondering what's wrong on their end.Especially on a game like FFX, where the animation and accompanying audio are excellent. Snappy and satisfying. Honorable mention to Shiva's design and animation.Of course if they play with fastforward, that's gonna ruin the animation and audio, which is a shame, but not everyone appreciates these qualities.
>>3840007The only game in the entire series with "specific effects" other than just being a gimmick is FFX-2 and that game is dogshit. It's a gimmick combat system for retards. Different for the sake of being different. It wasn't an evolution. Just a gimmick. That's why they stopped making games with ATB. FF7's ATB system in particular doesn't even work properly as your speed stat makes poison tick faster, unintentionally, and makes your barrier wear off faster. Garbage jank.
>>3842407>play ff7>use big guard>big guard runs out in 2 secondsWOW MUCH AMAZE
Examine?
>>3842560Brap
>>3842407that's a whole lot of seethe and one cherry-picked irrelevant nitpick.>>3842410and that's just a lie.ATB was a decent gimmick for its day. You just aren't smart enough to understand why and this makes you rage for some reason.
>>3834886ATB sucks, I am playing 4 right now, I WAS using it as intended but then the snake head hands boss was killing me a bunch. Went to wait mode and wrecked his shit. Same with the other ATB gotcha bosses. ATB active is for people that like Dork Souls, real RPG chads prefer turn based. FFX was the best iteration of combat in the series until XII came out.
>>3842585>ATB sucks, I am playing 4 right now, I WAS using it as intended but then the snake head hands boss was killing me a bunch. Went to wait mode and wrecked his shit.>ATB active is for people that like Dork SoulsSo, you're saying ATB is too hard for you and you need more time to decide your actions? That's nice.
>>3842582>and that's just a lie.It's not. ATB is a tacked on gimmick that is at odds with how the combat system in FF7 works. Above the slowest possible speed, which contradicts the gimmick's purpose, your timed status effects and buffs will be speed up to the point of the casting animation taking longer than the effect stays active. Play the game. You're adamantly defending something you don't even have surface level knowledge about. Embarrassing.
>>3842633ATB gives battles tension, which was a core part of FFVII. Sure, there are some details that weren't done perfectly, but what's really embarassing is spending days (weeks) ranting about how much you hate a system that was in like 6 games total and not even the one this thread is about. I'm sorry you have to set it to "wait" wah-wah.
>>3842650>ATB gives battles tension, which was a core part of FFVII*mashes X to win 90% of combats*
what is the practical difference between meters filling up and not showing a predicted turn order in a variable turn based game? assuming the game gives you the capabilities to avoid wasting in game time menuing, it seems like there is none except presentation.
>>3842769What
>>3842771I can't explain it more clearly. If a turn based game does not have a fixed turn order (it changes based on selected action and stats) and you do not see the predicted turn order- what is the practical difference between expressing that as meters filling up over time before a turn fires? you're effectively deciding the turn order in the same manner, you're just expressing the resulting turns in a different way. or so it seems to me. I don't really get arguing for one abstraction over the other, besides maybe ATB is dopamine-coded for lack of a better not-retarded-zoomer way to put it.
>>3842772Do you mean..What is the difference between having the turn orders for everyone visible vs. having meters for when player characters are ready to have a turn?
>>3842769ATB is inevitably going to have some down time, which I think is the major argument against it. You can simulate everything it does in a turn-based system if you're so inclined, but then you can just jump between turns without waiting.
>>3842769Humans have an intuitive sense of time passing. You can estimate the time between events. There's a rhythm. This is not possible without the active time element. Dopamine has nothing to do with it.
>>3842650There's no tension. It's a gimmick. ATB breaks the mechanics the game was designed around. Tacked on trash. Inherently.
>>3843024>You can simulate everything it does in a turn-based system if you're so inclinedNot really, like >>3843029 said it fundamentally changes things. You can simulate aspects and get something like FFX, but it will never be full the same.I don't have anything against ATB or turn-based, both can be great depending on the game and implementation.
>>3843024ATB having the speed of the player issuing commands being another variable in the turn order can be detrimental too.FFX is enjoyable because you can potentially plan a few moves ahead according to a consistent turn order. Pulling off a larger strategy than attack spamming is satisfying.Now if a multiple turn strategy falls apart because the speed of selecting menu options shifts turn order, that's a bummer. It can be argued that's a challenge, but I will argue it's unsatisfying, and that it's more important to give players the joy of pulling off strategies reliably.ATB seems like a compromise between action and strategy, and for me it's rarely worth it.Chrono Trigger utilized ATB better with enemies moving about, maybe becoming a prime target for certain attack patterns or AoEs. Dual Techs, being able to swap character turns. Accessories and speed tabs giving some control over your party's turn order.
>>3834886Because they wanted to go back to a decent system.
>>3839701>No, it wouldn't.Yes, it would. You're basically just describing tb with the turn queue off, everything else you said is basically marketing talk
>>3844394>You're basically just describing tb with the turn queue offNope, that's not what I'm describing. But this board has never been known for having the sharpest tools in the shed.
>>3839439>>3839443that's not what I said. Turn based means you take your turn. I have always despised ATB. I bought the chrono trigger bundle thing on PS1 and after all the hype seeing ATB I knew I would hate it and i did.
People aren't even actively talking about the systems anymore and are just being subjective. I think it's obvious if you've played 8 or 9, they didn't know what else to do with ATB. It really adds nothing to 9 and was done cause it was the series standard. I very much applaud them for doing CTB in 10 and would love another game that utilizes it. The CTB system is genius.
>>3845255>I very much applaud them for doing CTB in 10 and would love another game that utilizes it. The CTB system is genius.The system itself is great, and the devs did an amazing job making the most of it.You can play LOTR: the Third Age and see that a game having the CTB system isn't enough to make the combat good. FFX stands above as just a really well-designed, high quality game.It's unlikely we'll see the likes of FFX again. It comes across as a game developed by people who had the experience and had perfected the formula.
>>3845255Mana Khemia has a very similar combat system, and does a pretty good job with it.
>>3839859honestly never played itdropped the series a few hours into X because the cutscenes were boring me and there wasn't much freedom to explore and play
