No, I specifically want humans to be neutral and without any frills.

Legend of Grimrock 2 has pretty cool fantasy races. Humans are boring (extra experience, wow so cool). But the other races are for instance ratmen, that increase a random attribute per level up Insectoids with extra thick scales or minotaurs that gain extra strength for each skull they carry.

>>3839232
I guess maybe for you the Imperials of Elder Scrolls would be a good choice. My point isn't that they should have something zany or wacky about them, just something that they do better than many others.

Imperials in the Elder Scrolls series are supposed to be far better than any others when it comes to diplomacy, trade, or military strategy; while maybe not as individually strong as the average Orc or as agile as the average Khajiit, but coud run rings around them in negotiations or in strategy.

I guess the problem is that in all their wisdom the Elder Scrolls decided we needed
>humans (commerce, diplomacy)
>humans (strong warriors, aka notorcs)
>humans (other strong warriors, aka notnotorcs that are black)

>>3839242
>3 types of humans

You forgot that Elder Scrolls also has
>Elves (good at magic
>Elves (good at magic, and bows)
>Elves (good at magic, dark skin)

>>3839226
>does anyone else feel it's a bit boring when humans are treated as generic everymen in a fantasy setting?
nope, just you.

>>3839226
That translates to versatility. Humans can do anything, compared to other species which are overspecialized.

>>3839242
I don't want humans to do anything better than others. I want to specifically play as the race that has no advantage and overcome every challenge regardless

>>3839285
>overspecialized

>>3839242
Technically redguards are not human

>>3839299
Yes, that is the last word of my previous post. Did you have a point?

File: perdido-street-station-fa(...).jpg (67 KB, 588x828)

67 KB JPG

>>3839226
>also generally curious to hear of well executed examples of either generic fantasy races breaking their mould, or of actually unique fantasy races that can't really be traced back to Tolkein's frontrunners.
Not /vrpg/, but give Perdido Street Station a read.

>>3839226
When you characterize humans differently you are going to upset both the left and the right.
Which is kino

>>3839285
You’re drunk again, Heinlein

>>3839345
>dude, it's a human but it has a beetle's head on it and i fuck it
this marxist was abused by its parents

>>3839226
humans are the baseline race that we use to make comparisons to other fantasy races. it would make no sense to not make humans the average one.

>>3839226
No, I think it's based.even better if they get something like "grit" or "curiosity" as a special trait.

>>3839226
I like settings where they don't even bother to have a bunch of playable subhuman races, and instead do everything with stat spreads and classes.

I think it's so cool how Humans have pretty average stats in Wizardry, except for piety, which is very low. What strange, interesting commentary. I've always loved that.

>>3839620
Eh. I kinda like it when there are a bunch of demis that can't be classes that are exclusive to humans.

>>3839242
Actually, having different varieties of humans is a good thing you seething jew. What you want humanity to be is rootless, cosmopolitan bugmen (see: Imperials) that are entirely inseparable from one another, carrying zero intrinsic traits that put them apart from the rest of the faceless mongrelized herd, when in reality it couldn't be any farther from the truth. Race is both biological, as well as spiritual.

>>3839641
>this post in response to that post
U wot m8?

>>3839643
>I guess the """"problem"""" is that in all their wisdom the Elder Scrolls decided we needed

>>3839226
>generic everymen
>classic wow
Don't you mean BiS everything? Except mages and locks because pink short niggers

>>3839658
>Don't you mean BiS everything?
Only in PvE. Diplomacy OP. Orcs are the master race in PvP

Since humans can fuck everyone, most people are humans. Humans are average because the average is human.

>>3839226
Humans
>industrialists
>mass producers, many in number
>good ability to absorb new information, tech etc, and turn it into a winning strategy
Clever, brilliant and scrappy up-and-comer humans are my favorite

Preferably with a small amount of ruthlessness and lack of sentimentality

>>3839665
Perception and higher hit rating are pretty nice tho

>>3839679
>>industrialists
>literally just the most recent trend in human history
>humans in fantasy are just whatever fits my framework of the "ideal" (read: employable) cosmopolitan 21st century male
Extremely soulless and insipid.

>>3839242
TES also has

>humans (magic)

in the Bretons.

>>3839240
A game like skyrim?

We can only compare ourselves to animals, and compared to animals we're not really the best at any one thing except long distance running. Sure, we're the most intelligent, but in a setting with other intelligent beings that isn't exactly unique.

>>3839700
In FFXI the humans are industrialists because they inherited the sin of apathy from the god of death so they subconsicously invent shit to make their lives easier.

>>3839249
>Elves (good at magic, and bows)
Are Bosmer good at magic? I don't remember them getting bonuses to magic skills. They're more about alchemy, I think.

>>3839963
Okay that's kind of based wtf

>>3839955
Humans are the goblins from Warcraft. We are tool users and no animal does it like us. We can even invent our own extinction.
>>3839963
>sin of apathy
>make life easier
Hope that's a mistranslation.

>>3839226
I mean D&D used to give them a free feat a lvl 1, that's something.

>>3839404
>it would make no sense to not make humans the average one.
Xelee Sequence

>>3840066
In AD&D, before feats, humans were always the most powerful race with no class or level restrictions.

>>3839700
>industrialism
>recent
Fucking tard
The trend of humanity across all of history has been of ever-increasing complexity and capacity for humanity to leave a mark on nature.
Giant marble quarries, roads, fantastic works that spring up over a comparatively short amount of time is par the course.

There's a line that goes through ancient Egypt straight through modernity.

Making humans the guys that innovate, "desecrate nature"

>>3839700
>>3840105
Regarding the last part of your stupid ass post, making the audience identification race (humans) somehow flawed or weak or destructive is a good idea from a drama- and worldbuilding standpoint.

It creates tension. It's also a good counterpoint to balance loving elves and so on.
Tolkien made his orcs industrialists, but I think for a modern human, it fits better rp-wise that we are a "fallen" race.

File: 0C689FC4-A381-47D2-A56B-D(...).jpg (334 KB, 2048x1074)

334 KB JPG

>it is the lot of humans to be untermenschen barbarians without a large state
>corvée labor is a modern concept
Pic related was built with Stone Age tools

>>3840117
>stone age
The Nahuatl were late Bronze Age.

>>3839226
I feel like races should be classes.

>>3840124
Super simple ass tooling
Barely any metal as far as the eye can see

>>3840069
Eh, elven sleep immunity was pretty invaluable back when that spell didn't have a save, and multiclassing was generally way better than dual-classing.

>>3840067
Xelee Sequence is an "everything is shit, existence is utterly pointless in the grand scheme of things and humanity is a meaningless dot in the universe before a war between two universe-tier powers destroys all life" series. Of course we don't matter there.

>>3840134
No multiclass is as good as getting to a high level much faster, which also happens to make you immune to sleep, not to mention they could dual class. Humans were straight superior to everything else.

FFL/SaGa 1 is set up so that humans are the only class that can gain stats by purchasing items (i.e. strength potions, agility potions, health potions). Because money becomes retardedly easy to get about half way in the game, a human can easily become overpowered. There's also a glitch where humans can keep gaining stats beyond the maximum limit, so humans can also be exploited to be stronger than literally everything. But humans are nerfed because they can't cast spells - if that matters.

>>3840148
Dual-classing fucking sucks, you're essentially turning yourself into dead weight until you reach your old level.

>>3839226
No I'm fine with it. I only play human.
I do take offense to the fact that other species are called "races" and shitskin are considered human.

>>3840298
Yeah, you get carried until you catch back up, it's just an option humans have that others don't.
Multi-classing sucks in AD&D, you're essentially dividing your XP.

>>3839242
>humans (white romans)
>humans (white french)
>humans (white nords)
>humans (black north African Muslims)
I know Bethesda nuked Aztecs out of the lore to make Cyrodiil generic fantasy Europe, but it's kinda crazy that Asian people just don't exist in Tamriel.

>>3840313
Where do the katanas and wakizashis come from?

>>3840312
I'm not a fan of multiclassing, but I do like the shorty saves. Those things are fucken lit.

>>3840321
Dwarf Thief is good, true.

>>3840325
Imagine playing a dwarf that isn't a fighter, a cleric, or perhaps a fighter/cleric if you're feeling adventurous

>>3840326
You aren't following the discussion.
Go play a Dwarf fighter, cleric, or fighter/cleric in Pools of Darkness and come back.

lol

>>3840314
Akavir, the Elder Scrolls equivalent of Asia.

>>3839404
This.

File: file.jpg (207 KB, 1024x1536)

207 KB JPG

>>3839226
In Street Fighter, we got Ryu.

Ryu is the quintessential character, because every other character is made in relation to him. Whether their range is bigger/shorter, their fireball slower/faster, their anti-air weaker, their hitbox and hurtbox size, etc. Ryu has all the tools available to a character, he has them on a normal level to be a template to everything else.

Humans are kinda the same in RPGs. We know what humans are like, we got a lot of references. So when some description goes "This race is physically strong." it will mean they have it stronger than average. And where does that average lie? Where the human's do.

>>3839226
idiot. it's because we're human and that is the baseline for everything we do. when it comes to fantasy, the defining traits other created species will have will obviously make them more "interesting" because it's something we can't do. we know our limitations, and we design fantasy characters that either compliment or contrast our strengths/weaknesses.

>>3839226
Humans should be the best at everything. Other races can at best match humans at a single attribute, but they will be way worse at everything else.

>>3840434
>Humans are kinda the same in RPGs. We know what humans are like, we got a lot of references. So when some description goes "This race is physically strong."
My argument is usually that if you're doing it this way you're doing it wrong.
Humans can be physically strong.
They can be strong, smart, fast, agile, tall, short, devious, honorable-- and so on.
A fantasy race should have traits humans can't have.

>>3840533
>agile
Eh, we're actually not fast outside of very extreme circumstances and even then we're only fast in the form of sprinting.

>>3840583
yeah, a cat is agile, and a human is no where near a cat. we're kind of fast, but we're not faster than a bear, which is generally described as being fat and lazy as fuck, and definitely not generally known for fast, or at least not their defining characteristic, and yet they are faster than us. Some of us can get pretty strong, but that strength, even at its best, is laughable compared to a gorilla.

>>3840583
>Ackshually
Obviously, there can exist super-human levels of any trait.
The question is, do the fantasy races balanced to your videogame actually possess any of those truly superhuman traits? Or, do they just have a minor adjustment to their stat distribution? If they mostly fall within the same range of humans, it's not really worth defining a whole new race for it.

>>3840606
>Obviously, there can exist super-human levels of any trait.
nta, but "superhuman" is just the wrong way to describe it, realistically, because what is achievable by humans is still significantly less than what a specialized animal could do.

>humans = orcs or skaven
This is the way

>>3840630
Pointless nitpicking about semantics aside, the question is whether a game actually models the difference in strength between the strongest possible human and a bear or gorilla, and whether there's a race that actually possess that level of strength in a balanced way.

If your hypothetical "strong race" is 15% stronger than a human, the fact that gorillas are 1,000% stronger than a human isn't really relevant to the debate.

>>3840665
Superhuman is a pretty wild difference, imo, between what is and isn't possible. If humans are not better at something than an animal, than I would assume superhuman means something well beyond what the animal is capable of. "As strong as a bear" is different than being fuckin Superman. To say that super-human levels of traits exist is downplaying the significance of what a superhuman is, which is something completely fucking unrealistic.

>>3840665
>>3840681
Also I think the only "superhuman" quality we can currently manifest is an insane level of intelligence, and I think thats a fine line between being absolutely batshit because of the limitations of our brains/bodies. So unless we develop some sort of genetic engineering, we're not going to get better at anything than our current limits, which would normally be used as a basis for our imaginative creations.