The undefeated RPG formula
Based and Diablo pilled
Maybe. But consider
>>3840275>NO STAIRWAY
lacks an open world
>>3840275They made this game its called makai toushi saga
>>3840269I prefer a number of dungeons rather than just one.
>>3840275Isn't that just every Diablo-clone and their acts?
>>3840275This is just Diablo 2
>>3840275Checkpoints are gay.
>>3840269name seven (7) games
>>3840275SaGa 1?
>>3840414>he doesn't know
>>3840275One day...
>>3840304Don't you see it's segmented, retard?
>>3840446those are floors dipshit, not different dungeonsIn order to be separate dungeons travel between them has to return to the overworld level, there can't be continuous connection because then it's just a different part of the same dungeon
>>3840275Based SaGod.
>>3840269>RPG>diabslop
>>3840484ever heard of Wizardry little one
>>3840467In Diablo 1 you unlocked new entrances as you progress, each of which lead you to specific depth. Technically having one large segmented dungeon with different entrances for each depth is no different than having "separate" small ones, except that the latter makes the game simpler and gay.
>>3840269It's good business. It's a bit dangerous if no adventurers turn up to feed the monsters, but no risk, no reward.
>>3840276Traps with anti-gravity shafts.
>>3840506The town springs up around the dungeon and lasts until it's conquered, not the reverse. It's like a mining town.
>>3840499That's what picrel reminded me of.
>>3840275Mashin Hero Wataru?
>>3840414Wizardry 1Wizardry 2Wizardry 3Wizardry 5Ultima Underworld 2Wizardry Gaiden 1Wizardry Gaiden 2
>>3840499those are shortcuts, it's not the same.
>>3841257What makes "separate" dungeons so different mechanically then, the fact that they're not interconnected? Also worth mentioning that in Wiz 1-3/5 you've had elevators.
>>3841265Nta but usually separate dungeons have different goals. The one big dungeon in Diablo has the same goal in all sections, go deeper until you reach the bottom
>>3840275
>>3841346what other goal can a dungeon have other than "reach the bottom" or "kill the big bad guy at the bottom"?
>>3841966Find a lost npc or treasure?
>>3841966Be a passage between two towns?
>>3841966It was there.
>>3841265One thing is that accessing the dungeon itself can be part of the game when you have more than one and a world connecting them. Exploration becomes more than "go down".
>>3841265Consider the traditional structure of an RPG (/tg/). In the large majority of systems, and the more important ones historically - we find that the structure is vertical, with distinct levels that each have their own functional ruleset for play, as well as ways to move up or down to adjacent levels. The lowest regular level of play is the combat. Above that is the level of the dungeoncrawl, and further above that is the hexcrawl (or another system that functionally provides the same purpose). You traverse wide areas over large scales of time in the Hexcrawl to find a place of interest, once inside the place of interest you expolore and investigate what's inside through the dungeon crawl (acting in the range of minutes and hours), and upon coming into contact with a hostile the game moves to the level of the combat - with very specific rules and measured in seconds. Of course, the dungeoncrawl level can be skipped in some instances (a random encounter found while in the wilderness goes straight into combat from the hexcrawl), but the different levels are very distinct, and functionally serve to direct the purpose of the game -> you as a player want to kill monsters and get treasure (and exp), you find treasure and combat with monsters through dungeoncrawling, and you find places to dungeoncrawl through hexcrawling. When taken to apply to video game rpgs, and the relevant Question here - the important thing is that separate dungeons necessitate interacting with the game on the "Hexcrawling" (here more often "World Map") level to transit between them, which separates the instances of the dungeoncrawling level of play.
>>3842028Is this what they're teaching in video game theory now? No wonder modern games suck so bad. Imagine explaining this, in this way, to normies.
>>3840269Light Crusader (Genesis/Mega-Drive)
>>3842028The post above yours says the same thing in two sentences. lol
>>3841185Especially since any decent RPGs mentions the "dungeons" has having a previous function before they became infested with monsters.
>>3841966escape the dungeon>i literally can't with Grimrock bcuz I hate spamming mouseclick games, but it's a cool game design
>>3841966it can be a journey of self discovery
>>3840307Diablo II doesn't take place in Heaven you asshat.
>>3840275SMT IV and IV: Apocalypse have that exact fucking thing.
>>3840439Qrd/explaination?I think this is that SAO tower that at the top lets you exit the game or?
>>3841966Find the amulet of yendorDestroy Arsenal GearAchieve theosis
>>3843811No they don't.
>>3844359technically IVA does, there is that fiend dungeon that you can progressively dive deeper into with each run. i dont think 4 really does unless youre counting the stratums, but thats only the very first act of the game
>>3844677That is 1 (one) dungeon, not the entire game. The first Megaten Seems to better align with this image by the way.
>>3840269looks like shit, what game?
okay, its a good start, now lets take stock, what are the services in the town? weapon shop, magic shop, repair man, and sleep place? okay, now, fuse repair shop and weapon shop into one, now lets make two weapon shop dudes, one magic shop dude, and hide them in the dungeon, and let's put an upgradable copy of the sleep place where ever there's a tough challenge coming up, also in the dungeon. now get rid of the town. yep. gone. start the player in the dungeon.
>>3840275Not a fan. Every time I enter a late game hub I consider dropping a game.
>>3840275It needs more levels
>>3840269>>3840275For me, it's when the dungeon serves as a nexus to access multiple worlds/dimensions because it's the only thing that exists simultaneously on every plane. You get plenty of exits but taking them would probably be a recipe for an existential crisis
>>3841966A source of natural resources important to the local economy which is only fleetingly available before a new wave of monsters repopulate it from its depths.
>>3840414Angband
>>3840269
>>3840269Yes, but only if the dev remembers to tell players Contra Dextra Avenue.
>>3840276>DENIED!
>>3840269ok but how do you return to town without making it tedious or immersion breaking?
>>3840484You just showed how shallow is your knowledge about history of rpgs. This framework is basically as old as rpgs are and was rediscovered dozens of times because it's just fun.
>>3848107Magic and magical items.
>>3847593dumb jewish fairy tales
>>3848107Convenient shortcut hatch after the boss room.That, or make dungeons small enough to not be annoying to backtrack through.Maybe the majority of time in the dungeon is going down side-paths so the main one can be escaped quickly.In my game, I'm giving the player an item called a Blink Stone that will teleport you to the previously attuned shrine point. There's one in each town, and outside certain important points. You can also use items or spells to teleport you to other places. Anyone can use an Escape rope to skip backtracking, but you'll be interrupted by enemies you didn't kill, and time still passes in the meantime.
>>3848107Give the player a spell that warps them out of the dungeon, BUT don't give it to them at the start. Have the player have to backtrack in the early parts of the game when it's not too tedious and the trek back is tense since they're low on resources, then time it so they learn the escape spell around the point when the trek back is long enough to feel tedious and since the player didn't start with the spell it feels like they earned it and the game isn't going easy on them by giving it to them.
>>3848107Usually it's a warp item. Sometimes there's warp checkpoints within the dungeon as well. If you're running low-fantasy and warp magic's no good, shortcuts to shorten return trips can work, or just say fuck it and go wizardry style, make the assholes walk all the way back, "tedium" be damned.
>>3848107you're not supposed to go back. The Dungeon™ isn't a field trip or your grandpa's moldy basement, it's a cursed pit of horrors many of whom enter won't survive to tell the tale. not only should you not be able to return to the town once you enter the dungeon you shouldn't even be able to keep playing the same save file after dying. that's why Rogue was such a revolutionary game as it's the only real dungeon crawler that truly evokes the feeling of embarking on a deathly quest with no way back.
>>3848517Wizardry had an elevator, though.
>>3848546perfect example of how "revolutionary" does not always equal "good"
>>3848546>that's why Rogue was such a revolutionary gameThat's also why the gameplay model was essentially completely dropped once the novelty wore off. It's only seen a resurgance as of late because people finally have attention spans so short that playing an RPG with zero continuity where you never have to remember what you were doing has become a legitimately marketable concept.
>>3848107the adventurers never actually return to the surface but (You) as the one who hired them get to send them supplies every now and thenyour income isn't derived from loot (which hasn't been brought back to town, obviously) but rather bounties from the floor bosses they defeat, which (You) get to collect from the guild or the kingdom in their stead. also your character's business model is that you spend like 20% of the money from a given bounty on supplies and pocket the rest - it's not like they'll ever come back to claim their half anyway
>>3848965>That's also why the gameplay model was essentially completely dropped once the novelty wore off.You do know about the genre it founded, right?
>>3840307Dang, good post.
>>3848997I'm not in favor of never coming back to town. The town should simply update with your progress to further build immersion (RDR2). However, I very much like your idea about loot not coming shitty weapons. D4 broke this concept so hard with endless fucking shit thrown at the player I had to stop playing. Especially when they seemed to build mechanics to recycle weapons. It makes you feel like a trash collector, a garbage man, instead of a warrior. Weapons should be interesting to the user, not a wave of shit to dig through. So I'm on board with this. And to add to that, what is so fucking bad about vendors just having good shit to buy. Like ya, explore, kill, that's cool. But it's fucking fun going to town and seeing some epic armor set that is actually worth buying. Like at some point we decided vendors only sell shit and I don't like it.
>>3849372>zangband
>>3848107no. fuck you. you get out the same way you came in.
>>3848107The one thing extraction shooters got right is making the way out as dangerous, if not more.
>>3840499Themed branches and shortcuts do not another dungeon make.
>>3843825its the original world of SAO that the crazy dev traps everyone in
etrian odyssey :D
>>3848107>returnyou camp in the dungeon. there's no returning until the task is done
>>3852309>gelatinous cubes eat your waifus while they're sleepingHUH WHAT NOW ANON
>>3848107Like a boat?
>>3848107
>>3847593That isn't an RPG!
>>3848107Different game but I think the OP model is trash anyway, how Zelda did it wasn't bad.>>3850785That is ideal and I would like to see more of it, though.
>>3848677>>>>>>>using the default portraits
>>3841182Sounds gay
>>3840269Which RPGs that are not Dungeon crawlers even follow this formula?
>>3852519Zelda 1 the games RPGs should strive to be. With the exception of the combat, that is not RPG enough, of course.
Any games with the sense of despair and danger as in Fear & Hunger? Doesn't have to be edgy.
>>3852932Are there RPGs that don't have dungeons at all?
>>3848107Finding and building shortcuts
>>3840275i can't think of a single game that does this, i think you may have invented a new genre
>>3840269I can't draw, but imagine the giant underground dungeon but with no surface entrance. Instead there are a dozen mini dungeons that all connect to the megadungeon somehow.
>>3853760It's the first SaGa on GameBoy. A couple people in the thread already got it.
>>3853761and then your character sees daylight for the first time in the true ending
>>3853757Nigga, the sort of Dungeon in the picture of this very thread is a megadungeon.
>>3848107elevatorfloor bosses hold keys
>>3852933labels are retarded bcuz Zelda 1 was technically "Metroidvania" before either Metroid or Castlevania existed.>all labels are for retards no exceptions>all labels are for retards no exceptions>all labels are for retards no exceptions>all labels are for retards no exceptions>all labels are for retards no exceptions>all labels are for retards no exceptions
>>3840269I actually hate this usually. You're cutting out the frigging adventure!!!
>>3857250Adventure is a separate genre
>>3857250the adventure is the dungeonthe dungeon doesn't have to be stone corridors; it can be a self-contained world with tons of different biomes
>>3841712w-what is that game. what is that... thing
>>3849784i somehow ended up playing zangband in like 2005 as my first ever roguelike, i dont think it was even popular still. no idea how i even found it but damn was it cool
>>3841966Reach the warmer depths of the earth to escape cold when sun disappears. Reach the top of the tower to jump off (kys) after you defeat you mental baggage demons along the way... Maybe it's a soldier climbing tower levels to get a good vantage point for laser guidance or lighting some beacon of gondor equivalent or some shit. Really you can do almost anything.