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What's the most immersive RPG of all time?
>>
>>3847151
Morrowind
>>
>>3847151
Morrowind.
>>
>>3847154
>>3847155
Why?
>>
>>3847161
it's one of the few games that, during the tutorial section of the game (ie the first several hours), does a really good job of establishing that the player is an unwanted stranger in a foreign land. it does this by organically tying the gameplay mechanics to the pacing and plot. you suck at combat, nobody likes you, you have no money, and you have to work your way up. it's a struggle, nobody holds your hand, but yet everything feels earned afterwards. The ultimate end result is that the player now feels comfortable with the game mechanics, with the setting, with the NPCs, and overall how the world game world works. it's at this point that the player feels fully immersed and at one with the game.
>>
>>3847151
Kingdom Come 2
>>
bg3 cos its most reactive
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>>3847192
I have never played a more immersion-breaking RPG than bg3 because of how railroaded the game is, there’s so many choices you can make that the DM just goes “lol no” and overrules you. It’s literally “but thou must!” tier. The reactivity is an illusion that shatters simply by redoing the same conversation and picking different options.
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>>3847219
give an example
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>>3847318
>give an example
In act 1, refuse to recruit Shadowtart. You can't, the DM will teleport her to you in a goofy cutscene, because she has the MacGuffin and the plot can't happen without the MacGuffin.
In act 1, try to blow up the red dragon by casting level nine barrelmancy. Nope, plot armor, DM says fuck you he survived.
In act 2, go down the road towards the Absolute's army encampment, hoping for a cool bigass battle. The DM teleports you to the lair underneath moonrise towers, and makes your character say "I should have known better!"
In early act 3, kill the Emperor when he is first revealed to you. The DM flips the table over and ends the game, because fuck you.
In late act 3, attempt to cross the bridge to the big bad before it's time. The DM teleports you back across the bridge, because how dare you.
>>
>>3847322
Do you want to experience a story, like an adult, or do you want to play in a sandbox, like a child?
>>
>>3847322
>In early act 3, kill the Emperor when he is first revealed to you. The DM flips the table over and ends the game, because fuck you.
This is the only one of your examples that doesn't make sense. He's the only one stopping the brain from controlling your mind. No shit the game ends if he dies.
>>
>>3847322
>In act 1, refuse to recruit Shadowtart. You can't, the DM will teleport her to you in a goofy cutscene, because she has the MacGuffin and the plot can't happen without the MacGuffin.
How would you have handled this without getting rid of the MacGuffin completely? Having you find it without Shadowtart somehow?
>>
>>3847151
Daggerfall
>>
>>3847151
Fallout: New Vegas on Hardcore mode with some basic mods
>>
>>3847432
A game isn't immersive if it needs mods to be immersive. It has to be immersive without mods.
>>
>>3847333
Just have her die when the ship crashed.
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>>3847329
>Do you want to experience a story, like an adult, or do you want to play in a sandbox, like a child?
We are all familiar with the conceit of "the story requires [thing] to happen, so it occurs in a cutscene outside of the player's control". It's far more immersion-breaking to pretend to offer the player a choice, but then to immediately reject and override the player's choice. Hence, "but thou must!"
>>3847332
>This is the only one of your examples that doesn't make sense. He's the only one stopping the brain from controlling your mind. No shit the game ends if he dies.
He's not doing that, Orpheus is. It's all arbitrary and logically inconsistent, anyway. For example, if you don't recruit Jaheira and do her quest, you can end up fighting Minsc in the sewers, because he thinks you killed her, even though it was a doppelganger. Setting aside how retarded this is after the events of bg1 and TotSC, if you attempt to spare him by knocking him unconscious, he gets up and attacks you again, and if you knock him unconscious a second time, he dies. The Emperor remarks about how he can't save everyone and couldn't afford to extend "his protection" to Minsc, even though if you had recruited him, that's precisely what happens.
>>3847333
>>3847485
>How would you have handled this without getting rid of the MacGuffin completely? Having you find it without Shadowtart somehow?
The writers backed themselves into a corner through successive rewrites of the plot and characters, and Swen admitted in an interview that he was unhappy with the forced nature of the MacGuffin, to his credit. Hence the goofy cutscene I mentioned was required, because that was a last ditch effort to force the MacGuffin into your party, in the event the player repeatedly rejected Shadowtart.
As the other anon mentioned, you can simply kill her immediately after the prologue, and the MacGuffin will attach itself to you, instead. Picrel: Successful parasite removal.
>>
>>3847418
>>
>>3847151
Skyrim or Morrrowind. Oblivion too, depending on your tolerance for goofy jank.
>>
>>3847333
>How would you have handled this without getting rid of the MacGuffin completely? Having you find it without Shadowtart somehow?
Why does the Astral Prism even need to be tied to SH and/or the Emperor? Very little about the thing's origins even makes sense, and it really feels like the writer(s) forcibly tied SH and the Emps in order to give them some of otherwise straight up absent plot relevance.

>SH must have the Prism because she's the one who stole it
She also got captured somehow and then the tentacleheads somehow did not find it on her person, while having her in their total control and confinement, and it did not use it's mind-control disabling properties to, say, unthrall the mind flayers that were implanting the party. Also, the Emps said he found and stole it first, which is how he's inside of it. So, apparently, the Emps stole it, got unbrainfucked by it, hid himself inside - at which point the Prism itself was at don'tthinkabout and then SH stole it form dontthinkaboutit, which lead to her capture on the nautiloid.

>Emps must be in the Prism because it protects you from enthrallment through him
Except for the Emps himself, who somehow got freed from his enthrallment just by the prism itself, with no smooth operator inside of it.

The whole thing is messy, the writing really suffered from devs plainly giving substantially more attention to their pet characters and their arcs at the cost of the main plot. Even when they are done really well, like Raphael, they still end up sticking out of the game's narrative like a facial tumor.
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>>3847176
>nobody likes you
Only if your character is a low personality incel
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>>3847662
Outlander
>>
>>3847151
elin
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>>3847662
No bed here for you, n'wah.
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>>3847620
>She also got captured somehow and then the tentacleheads somehow did not find it on her person
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>>3847151
Gothic or Morrowind
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>>3847461
if no mods id still say NV on hardcore mode. it gives you the feeling of barely being able to sustain yourself at the beginning but becoming a rich high roller by the end, and you get to choose if you want to be a cowboy, soldier, gladiator, tech gunner etc. its so immersive it turns people into troons.
>>
>>3847791
>you get to choose if you want to be a cowboy, soldier, gladiator, tech gunner etc

Is that really immersive though? To my that's not different then a D&D game where you can be a fighter, wizard, sorcerer, thief etc. It's just different types of combat classes.
>>
>>3847151
Gothic 2.
>>
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To add on that, Morrowind has the most immersive navigation: There are no quest markers and you must look at the directions that your character wrote on the journal or look at signposts for directions.
Morrowind is how TES should be like but they dumbed down and simplified everything.
>>
>>3848047
I unironically love the fast travel system in Morrowind. It's a lot of fun learning the boats, the silt striders, the teleportation routes, and getting around the map that way. And it feels great to be jumping around the map as a high level character with maxed out speed, acrobatics, and athletics. Oblivion and especially Skyrim are a big let down in that regard.
>>
>>3848060
i know that feel bro. 20-30 hours into the game, and you have all the travel options memorized. and then you say to yourself "I know this island like the back of my hand, like I've been here before in another lifetime."
and then your mind is blown.
>>
>>3848047
>There are no quest markers
Just like in any other proper computer RPG. Is moronwind the only fucking game you faggot played?
>>
>>3850365
>t. hasn’t played a cRPG in the last 20 years
>>
>>3848060
>Oblivion and especially Skyrim are a big let down in that regard.
skyrim, definitely

but oblivion?
oblivion is the best unintentional snowboarding/skateboarding game that was ever made. carving down hills with max speed and athletics is GOAT, and actually takes some skill/nuance

as for getting back to that morrowind lunacy of being able to leapfrog all over the place, thats actually an ez fix
>custom spell
>fort SPD 100pts on self 2secs
>fort acrobatics 100pts on self 2secs
>feather on self 100pts for 2secs
then you can cast that and blast off of any weird geometry if you time your jump/spell right
i remember me and my buddies used to have this sick line in the imperial city. you could blast off the little stairs in the streets, land on the roofs, then use to roofs to gap over the streets to other roofs
>>
>>3847151
Fallout 1. I hate beginning as a tribal in 2.
>>
Ive found myself being more immersed in fuckin survival crafting games like Enshrouded. Building my house, setting up my kitchen, cooking food for buffs and doing some alchemy for my health potions, sorting my loot, crafting my new armour and making sure i have enough firewood and raw materials to set up camp, rest and recuperate in the middle of bumfuck nowhere on the side of a mountain at night before i go into cave and fight a boss.

Bethesda games where the only thing your character does is fight shit, eat an entire store worth of food you bought for a pittance and then travel the road for 16 days straight is never the kind of immersion i wanted, i needed more
>>
>>3847322
>In early act 3, kill the Emperor when he is first revealed to you. The DM flips the table over and ends the game, because fuck you.
this makes perfect sense retard
I did this on my first playthought because I wanted to find if they had balls to end game. they did. also emperor tells you like 10 times before that about him being only thing protecting you. I wanted to find out if hes lying cos I felt being gaslit into trusting squid lying fuck hard.
>>
>>3850378
There were almost no RPGs released in the past 20 years.
>>
Deus Ex if you consider it an RPG.
Otherwise, The Witcher 1
>>
>>3847318
The bullshit underwater prison and not really being able to go against gortash when first fought the fucker literally teleports out even if held and he has some literal forcefield that makes him almost impossible to touch.
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>>3847322
So you basically tried to break the game just to break it and then are mad the devs prevented this. Good job.
>>
>>3850521
I agree, and Oblivion and Skyrim are two of my favorite games. What made me immersed in Oblivion was AI reactivity, which at the time was incredible. Skyrim had such great graphics for the time that just having a bow and going hunting in the tundra felt immersive. But even then I thought, man, I wish I could like, camp or build something out here, in an immersive way. Not just pay an npc 10k gold for a floor plan. The fallout 4 settlement system was not immersive.

Another thing I liked about Skyrim was crafting made sense from a resource collection perspective. If I was out in the world and I saw a bronze bar, I didn't need to check my recipes to know if it was useful, it's obviously used to craft bronze gear. I enjoy that, a logical and intuitive recipe system. Not saying there wasn't other jank, I'm just pointing out the positives.
>>
>>3847926
yes, its immersive because it changes not just combat, but who your companions are, which factions like you, which missions you choose to do, which perks you have etc. its not just changing clothes, it changes the whole game. in dnd you choose a class but you're going into the same old dungeon.
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>>3847322
>deliberately going out of your way to ignore the entire arc of a well written purposeful campaign
If people try this shit in my tabletop games they don't get invited back. I'm not wasting time with a bunch of twelve year olds
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>>3850794
>bg3
>well written
Bait used to be believable.
>>
>>3850794
Yep it's a red flag for people you don't wanna hang around with
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>>3850794
NTA, I never got into tabletop gaming, just didn't have a friend group into it. But I get what you're saying. It must be the worst playing with "clever" people who purposely act obtuse and annoying as fuck. "Well technically....." and they say something that isn't technical and is completely retarded.
>>
>>3850794
I’m somewhat sympathetic because I have been in tabletop campaigns where one or more players was fucking around, at the expense of the enjoyment of the the other players and the DM.
However, someone fucking around in a single player game, and someone fucking around in a cooperative multiplayer game, are fundamentally different. A person fucking around in a single player game isn’t impinging upon the enjoyment of anyone else.
>>
>>3850844
It's hard to program 8000 different options for players. Most paths will heavily overlap with each other, or the times the player can make a big difference will be very few and at those times maybe a larger change can take place, typically at the end of the game. Him just noticing someone has an important item and going "Well I'll exclude them" is not a worthwhile option to give a player. It's similar to people being mad Bethesda doesn't let you just break quests everywhere on a whim. "Why can't I just kill the fucking emperor right away and then have the whole game world adapt and react to that?" Because that's RETARDED AND DOESN'T MATTER.
>>
>>3847176
Absolutely none of that has anything to do with immersion.
>>
>>3850853
NTA but yes it does. Also your post is a conclusion, with no supporting evidence, giving about a 95% chance you're not worth listening to going forward.
Establishing that the world doesn't like you and that you don't belong is very immersive. And through actions, beginning to belong, is also rewarding and immersive.
>>
>>3850844
>However, someone fucking around in a single player game, and someone fucking around in a cooperative multiplayer game, are fundamentally different.
How you play alone does say something about you.

Don't want to go with the best flow and narrative for your own entertainment?

Maybe you're bad at it, and can't recognize good avenues and opportunities?

More of a disagreeable personality? A mindset of rejecting ideas and expectations?

Not a good look bro, sorry
>>
>>3850867
NTA I think it’s fine to do crazy shit in a single player game. But if all you do is seek out invisible walls at the edge of the map and then go “what the fuck, why isn’t this trash game infinite” you might just be a retard.
>>
>>3850750
>So you basically tried to break the game just to break it
>>3850849
>Him just noticing someone has an important item and going "Well I'll exclude them"
I find it interesting that you leap to imputing the least charitable motives for a player choosing to not recruit Shadowheart. What if she's obviously an edgy cleric of an evil goddess and a lawful good character wouldn't consider associating with her? What if the player is themselves a cleric, and doesn't want another one for balance? What if the player already has a full party of custom party members, and isn't interested in recruiting any of the "origin characters"? This is similar to Larian's attitude, they're obviously a bit miffed if you don't want to play as, or with, their donut steel OC.
As to the rest of the examples, why wouldn't a player in a cRPG try to slay the dragon? It's an adventurer staple. In DOS2, you could "kill" two dragons in act 1. They survive and fly away, but the game acknowledges the player's accomplishment, and you get some sweet magic loot as a reward. In BG3, nothing.
Why wouldn't the player try to have a sweet battle with the giant army the game's been hyping up? Perhaps out of a desire to do good and save the world, perhaps out of a desire for loot and XP. You can even sit on the cliffs above the camp and lob fireballs at the enemies walking around, with zero reaction. If the plot requires it to be an unwinnable battle, then hell, just let the player fight an unlimited wave of high level enemies they'll eventually succumb to.
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>>3847151
KCD1 because of the atmosphere
>>
>>3847184
>>3847192
>>3847219
>>3847432
We don't tolerate liking those games here.
>>
>>3850741
Funnily enough I've played both of those and absolutely love Deux Ex but... Witcher 1? You've lost me there.
>>
>>3851163
The castle tutorial is meh, you need to get to the proper act 1. One of the most atmospheric games of all time, not just RPGs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5tf0x0jazI
>>
>>3850854
Your supposed counter-argument is "x is indeed very immersive" lol.
>>
>>3847176
Only a disingenuous nostalgiacuck millennial would think Morrowind is especially unique for depicting a zero to hero tale in a RPG. Even worse is when he tries to downplay all of the other factors that ruin immersion (i.e. static NPCs and game world, broken game mechanics, no *actual* roleplaying)
>>
>>3850761
>it's different to a D&D class system 'cause I says so
>>
>>3851164
I know nigga I've finished the game and 2
>>
>>3851190
Well it's possible that you just have no taste and liked Deus Ex despite that.
>>
>>3851166
Oh look, another empty post, proving my 95% claim correct.
>>
>>3851195
I liked the Witcher 1, faggot. I'm just wondering how it's the MOST IMMERSIVE because that's a big claim.
>>
>>3851235
What can you name that's MORE immersive?
>>
>>3851251
>be me
>Christmas Day, 1998
>boot up Half-Life
>do physicist things
>mfw they're waiting for you, Gordon, in the test chamber
>ohshit.bat
>find a rope ladder hanging down from the ceiling
>sweet
>climb rope ladder
>mfw it wasn't a rope ladder
>>
>>3850853
>>3851167
i see that neither of you guys understood what i was saying. the point is that the immersion comes when the player no longer feels like they are interfacing with a game or are burdened by mechanics, but instead feel like they are directly interacting with the game world and npcs using the rules established by the setting.
>>
>>3851261
You probably mean to say that a player is new to the setting, so it's fitting that the world treats the player character as someone new to the setting
>>
>>3851261
I completely disagree with your arbitrary definition of immersion.
>>
>>3851292
>I completely disagree with your arbitrary definition of immersion.
NTA, but let's hear yours, since his is just about textbook. Same principle as suspension of disbelief.
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>>3847184
Be serious, the shitty combat is immersion breaking.
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>>3847192
Not even the most reactive WRPG to come out this generation, that would be Weird West.
>>
>>3851251
Morrowind?
>>
>>3851653
No. Savage.
>>
>>3847151
Everquest and there isn't a close second.
>>
>>3847151
1. vtmb
2. deus ex

POWER GAP

3. diablo 2
4. gothic
5. fallout

POWER GAP

6. morrowind

POWER GAP

7. arcanum
8. gothic 2
9. diablo
10. darklands
>>
>>3851834
What a blessed taste. Personally, I'd take Gothic 1&2 up a bit, but you do you.
>>
>>3847151
LIFE!
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>>3851874
Shitty replayability
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>>3847176

>it's a struggle, nobody holds your hand, but yet everything feels earned afterwards.

Are you talking about Gothic or Morrowind?

Also Caius literally holds your hand and invites you to sleep in his house lmao

>>3847192
>>3847612
>>3847184

holy hell this board is full of redditors
>>
>>3847151
>most immersive
Probably Morrowind.
With Skyrim I felt like I was exposed to scenery flats a bit more, the cold environment not being a factor also made it less immersive than Morrowind.
Not that Morrowind had a mechanic for it, but it was centered around environments where it was less important.
I don't know about Oblivion or Daggerfall.

The slow speed of Diablo 1 makes it pretty immersive too, I think it's the only hack'n'slash i'd actually call immersive.

I think bg1+2 are better rpgs, and bg1 is fairly immersive, but not really a contender for most immersive.

I don't think any jrpgs could be seriously considered contenders.
>>
>>3850890
>Why wouldn't the player try to have a sweet battle with the giant army the game's been hyping up?
That one can be explained by the fact that the game necessarily has to abstract in order to portray larger groups.
How could the game possibly portray your group fighting hundreds if not thousands of soldiers from ketheric army.
Even rendering that would be disastrous, let alone actually waiting for everybody's turn to be over. So the Devs basically said "look theres no reason trying to show how this would go, just trust us there's way too many for your group to defeat"
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>>3854161
>That one can be explained by the fact that the game necessarily has to abstract in order to portray larger groups.
>How could the game possibly portray your group fighting hundreds if not thousands of soldiers from ketheric army.
>Even rendering that would be disastrous
Why was it necessary to render the army camp on-map to begin with? It could've simply been a plot point talked about, but not shown, if they were incapable of doing it justice and fully implementing it. Surely depicting it in-engine as a dozen tents with a few dozen enemy models, rendered and milling about, which you can literally get within fireball range and toss ineffectual AoE attacks at, without the game noticing or responding, is the worst and least-satisfying compromise that they could've made.
Why even offer the player the choice of "do you want to go down this road, Y/N? Lol too bad you can't." Imo, presenting the player with a false choice that they aren't allowed to make, is far dumber and more immersion-breaking than simply not offering the player a choice in the first place.
I'm certain that I'm not the only player among millions who tried to do half this shit I listed. Players have been testing the bounds of what a game will allow you to do within the confines of its systems for as long as there have been games. And overall, my biggest gripe as I went through BG3 was that the game actively fought against my suspension of disbelief, by the number of times it pulled shit like this.
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>>3852432
>I don't think any jrpgs could be seriously considered contenders.
Dragon's Dogma
>>
>>3851834
Diablo II was immersive, and I feel like that's a huge reason 3 and 4 suck so hard. Especially 4. They add in all these mechanics and systems that don't at all belong in the Diablo world. It's all designed to keep someone addicted longer. But because it's so heavy handed I don't get addicted in the first place and am just repulsed. I shouldn't have to learn 10 new systems the moment I walk into town. I should only be concerned with driving my axe through a demons head, and everything should intuitively aid in that process. Everything should be built around that. Also they name everything extremely epic at like lvl 2. Whatever happened to like, having a rusty dagger at the start. And then being proud to find an iron sword. Now its "Dagger of the ancients" "Demons scourge" with 80 different properties on it, and it does 3 damage.

A bunch of retards took over that project.
>>
>>3854246
>A bunch of retards took over that project.
3 was made by the WoW team, the D1/D2 devs had fucked off by that point. 3 made me swear off Blizzard games forever.
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>>3851267
no, i meant exactly what i said. immersion is when you feel like part of the game, and no longer feel like someone playing a game.
>>3851292
what's your definition?
>>
>>3852432
>the cold environment not being a factor
with the survival mode it now does. turn HUD off and roleplay away
>>
New Vegas modded.



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