Also I don't know I was rewatching the SNES scene vs Reborn scene on Vyce's death and I'm not a big fan of them adding that Vyce calls for Denim. SNES never mentions it. SNES voice acting sounded way more raw too.

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>>3847725
Many of these older SRPGs, like Tactics Ogre and FFT, suffer from being extremely slow and poorly paced, often with damage sponge enemies as well.

Unicorn Overlord, Midnight Suns, Fire Emblem, Fallout Tactics, Valkyria Chronicles 1&4, Mechanicus might be more your thing.
Or Jeanne d'Arc if you want something similar to FFT and Tactics Ogre but a little quicker.

SNES, PSP Reborn are all mechanically different. But the missions are all the same, routing enemies. And slow because you can't skip animations. With that said I think Reborn plays the best

>>3847729
>Many of these older SRPGs, like Tactics Ogre and FFT, suffer from being extremely slow and poorly paced
Is this like when zoomers can only play games on 3x speed while listening to a “video essay” on the other screen?

>>3847732
>>3847729
FFT was workable though since you can get into some autistic grind and get rewarded for it. Tactics Ogre feels like an absolute slog because EVERY battle feels like a damn slow ass wait for the enemy to come, okay they're close enough. hyperfocus the boss and hope to god I can kill them off before their healers crit heal them and I run out of people to throw at them.

I really like Tactics Ogre story but my god I'm getting small snippets because those battles take fucking forever.

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>>3847732
Anon, a generic story battle in Tactics Ogre with you fighting is painfully slow.

>roughly around 15-20 units in a battle
>every unit activates, probably does some active skill to boost a stat, waddle over, play some attack or spell animation
>everything is followed by constant pauses
>units constantly go over a pickup on the field where they stop, play the animation, the stop, then continue their turn
>enemies are damage sponges, taking 3-4 or more hits to kill
>fight is further dragged out with enemies healing with magic & herbs, constant passive skill activations, enemies running away, etc
I grew up playing games like these and I have replayed Tactics Ogre multiple times. That doesn't change how absurdly slow it plays.

Do you think chess would be better if it took 10 seconds to move a piece one you or your enemy decided to move it?

The issue with TO is its maps. While beautiful, it just takes so many turns of doing literally nothing until you can start interacting with enemy units.
It's especially hard for melee units that get stuck one behind the other, not being able to just move past even their own allies to get an attack in.
I've only played the PSP version and besides that and undead enemies being a slog I didn't find the gameplay that bad. The AI moves fast enough I guess and the menus were snappy.
The real issue PSP had was with unit planning and building because holy shit what were they thinking with that kind of skill grind and material grind for crafting?
I immediately just started making my own version of the game because it was pretty obvious I was going to end up with a team full of Ninjas with shortbows and Archers otherwise to protect my sanity.
I think it's pretty fun if you remove most of the useless fluff that bogs the PSP version down, but if we are comparing vanilla then Reborn is more streamlined for the casual gamer.

The TO battle pacing issue would be fine if the game was shorter, had faster progression and fewer filler battles. Big battles are fine but they have to feel impactful.

I don't understand people who lump Unicorn Overlord with those other turn based SRPGs
>>3847729

>>3847754
You are overlooking the fact that people have preferences.
There is Battle Brothers and Fire Emblem whose number of units are so long that a single fight can take hours. And people have no problem; it simulates a war in turn based presentation.
Yes it's a slog if you are expecting a bite-sized SRPG - but that's not what they are aiming for.

>>3847725
I prefer SNES/PSX
PSP is almost identical to reborn with less QoL and even more obnoxious class leveling system, although you no longer have the hard 4 skill slot limit.

>>3848029
PSP had 10 skill slots but a bunch of them are things that used to be innate in the original or got folded into gear in Reborn.

>>3847995
Because Unicorn Overlord is similar in many ways to FFT and TO and I shouldn't need to make an obvious list for anyone that has played the games.

>>3847997
Except what makes TO combat a slog isn't something intentional. Pauses, slow animations, frequent turn interruptions is all unskippable and happens for every single unit on the field. That alone doubles the duration of the fight for no benefit to the player.
Then you have other stuff which severely slow the game's combat and pacing down.

>>3847732
Cope squaresoft slurper. Tactics ots ogre now and goyslop fantasy tactics runied jap srpg's forever.

>>3848029
Thw snes/ps1 versions are way less aids at the end of the day, I will admit

>>3847997
I never even mentioned unit numbers. I was commenting on how terrain traversal and unit engagement worked.

>>3848215
>Because Unicorn Overlord is similar in many ways to FFT and TO
Nope, they are barely similar, the only thing similar was you can play with generics and Japanese, and the Ogre Battle connection

>>3848223
>Except what makes TO combat a slog isn't something intentional. Pauses, slow animations, frequent turn interruptions is all unskippable and happens for every single unit on the field. That alone doubles the duration of the fight for no benefit to the player.

Literally every other clunky TB JRPGs have these problems. And there are lots of them.

The only SRPG that doesn't have slog problem is the GBA/DS/3DS Fire Emblem games since you can skip animations and dialogues seamlessly

>>3848284
Then you fail to realize that it is a universal issue among grid based Japanese SRPGs not named Fire Emblem.

>>3848304
>Then you fail to realize that it is a universal issue among grid based Japanese SRPGs not named Fire Emblem.
This part was quoting from this:
>>3848284
>I was commenting on how terrain traversal and unit engagement worked.

>>3848302
>similar setup
>similar structure
>similar recruitment process of characters, building an army, customizing, class inheritance, etc
>both tactical rpgs
You have to be legit stupid to not see it and as such an utter waste of time to interact with further.

>>3848304
>Literally every other clunky TB JRPGs have these problems. And there are lots of them.
Yet some are not even remotely as much of a slog. A fight in something like Jeanne d'Arc takes like half the time than in TO.

>>3848317
>similar setup
stupid
>similar structure
even more stupid
>similar recruitment process of characters, building an army, customizing, class inheritance, etc
stupid to highest degree
>both tactical rpgs
you are truly stupid

>>3848319
>A fight in something like Jeanne d'Arc takes like half the time than in TO.
Because Jeanne d'arc has less amount of units & unit variety, more OP skills, less complex damage & armor systems

>>3848330
None of that is why TO is so slow in combat. If you actually stopped and looked at all the things that eats up time in combat, it's things tied to constant interruptions with unskippable animations that take too long.

>>3848302
>young man leading a resistance with their family and friends to free their country by building an army of generic and recuitable characters using a class and gear system to level up units as multiple classes and use unlocked skills with new classes in tactical battles
>no similarity

>>3848333
>None of that is why TO is so slow in combat
But that plays a part. Amount of units and different type of skills they can execute will add up
Unit variety as well, in TO you have bulky sponges either due to their armor types or the amount of HP they had
Where is this in Jeanne d'arc?
> things tied to constant interruptions with unskippable animations that take too long
Jeanne d'arc has long animations as well

>>3848335
oversimplification of TO

>>3848339
>no you see if it isn't 1:1 it's not similar
>a green apple is not like a pear despite both being green, growing on trees, being fruit, etc.

>>3848336
I like the level of mental gymnastics you go through to excuse pacing and slowness issues away in the combat with "no dude, it's just soooo deep" and being so stubbornly narrow-minded you won't budge from this position. Nevermind, I'm dealing with someone with the mental maturity of a toddler that will die on his hill.

>>3848354
It's OK to admit you don't want to debate in good faith and just want to force your own opinions, saar
Also nice to see someone is on their high horses for no reason.

all i know is this shit is too fucking slow holy fuck. i wish I could AI through the rest of the game but you can't even make your units OP as fuck so you're stuck doing it normally unless you want a dead crew

>>3848355
>"argue in good faith"
>"force opinions on others"
You did the exact opposite of good faith and demonstrate narrow mindedness, learn some self awareness.
You disregarded everything I said to handwave it away because "it's so deep". Even literal animations which has absolutely nothing to do with depth. THAT is your level of delusion. Then you, like all narrow minded people do, cherrypick specific examples while ignoring everything that doesn't align with what they believe.
But telling a narrow minded delusional person that they're narrow minded and delusional is a catch 22.

Sorry for assuming you were a rational open minded adult, I won't make that mistake again.

>>3848304
There are games you can press a buttonpress to hyper fast forward or skip entire enemy turns. Tactics Ogre doesn't have that because it was old and was never fixed. Tactics Ogre isn't even very deep or complex. Most of it is grinding and build autism.

>>3848358
>Even literal animations which has absolutely nothing to do with depth. THAT is your level of delusion. Then you, like all narrow minded people do, cherrypick specific examples while ignoring everything that doesn't align with what they believe.
You really call that cherrypicking when you didn't came with any specific detail in your claims? Plus came with extra insults that absolutely wasn't related to the discussion.

And then you still try to act like the bigger person for some reason.

>>3848359
>Tactics Ogre isn't even very deep or complex.
You're wrong, at least compared to most SRPGs. If you're comparing it in terms of map design with Fire Emblem, yeah TO is weaker. FFT & TO pales in comparison to Kaga's series in terms of nuanced gameplay and story integration.
>Most of it is grinding and build autism.
You're right about this, but that is what most people want in terms of complexity in SRPGs. Clever map design is only in Fire Emblem

>>3848365
>You're wrong
Cool opinion and rant fanboy. You didn't even say shit about the skip function.
>but that is what most people want
Wrong again, you think everyone thinks like you and everything you think is true.

>>3848309
>Then you fail to realize that it is a universal issue among grid based Japanese SRPGs not named Fire Emblem.
No idea what you're trying to argue at this point. That I should have expected enemy engagement to have that many empty turns because that's what they were aiming for with the design? Am I getting your argument right?

>>3848369
>Wrong again, you think everyone thinks like you and everything you think is true.
Says the one who takes things at face value, no literacy at all. You dont even propose your own take, hating things without any reason
>>3848375
But Im not even trying to argue anything, this is literally every isometric SRPG out there where the downtime is watching the AI making movement

>>3848378
>But Im not even trying to argue anything, this is literally every isometric SRPG out there where the downtime is watching the AI making movement
Well I definitely think FFT with its smaller maps didn't have that issue. Maybe it would be as simple as raising all unit's jump tolerance by 1 to make it more bearable in TO. I always felt that was the limiting factor much of the time. Maybe also allow everyone to wade in water and the ones that could don't have their movement restricted. Anyway I was talking about something very specific I noticed while playing TO.

>>3848378
>Says the one who takes things at face value, no literacy at all. You dont even propose your own take, hating things without any reason
I said
>There are games you can press a buttonpress to hyper fast forward or skip entire enemy turns.
what did you say? That's right, fuck all.

>>3848382
>There are games you can press a buttonpress to hyper fast forward or skip entire enemy turns.
What am I supposed to argue with this statement?

>>3848385
You ignored it for a rant about nothing while the point you missed is that the skip features show you don't need to stop the game for your ebin complexity. You the pretended everyone else fucked up while you paraded on your high horse. Do I need to see every single animation, every time some tard unit picks up pointless pickup and shit? No I fucking don't. So they are not needed for your ebin complexity, fanboy. None of the slowness is.

>>3848391
>You the pretended everyone else fucked up while you paraded on your high horse.
That other guy, or maybe it's you, is the one on their high horse. Nowhere did I claim FFT/TO sloggy way of presentation as superior. I'm just pointing out that the problem is universal in isometric SRPGs
>So they are not needed for your ebin complexity, fanboy. None of the slowness is.
The only thing I see is an anti-fanboy here. No fanboys were present.

>>3848393
Why does your fanboy ass keep ranting about shit no one is talking or cares about.
>I'm just pointing out that the problem is universal in isometric SRPGs
Except they aren't as I demonstrated and you failed to say shit about. Learn to take a fucking L you fanboy drone.

>>3848395
>Why does your fanboy ass keep ranting about shit no one is talking or cares about.
should I buy you a mirror?
>Except they aren't as I demonstrated and you failed to say shit about. Learn to take a fucking L you fanboy drone.
You demonstrated jack shit. You are just annoyed for some dumb reason.

>>3848397
>should I buy you a mirror?
I entered the thread saying there are skip features so you don't need to show every single shit. I never moved from this point. You rambled on about everything but this. In case your clown ass didn't get the memo, this is you drooling on the floor about how you absolutely have to show this shit and that every single other game like it not only needs to show it, but do. You're fucking wrong.
>You are just annoyed for some dumb reason.
A fucktarded fanboy that plugs his ears to everything he doesn't like walking about about the amount of cocks he took this morning? Yeah, who would like a person like you.
Do you need to show and animate every single thing? No. Are there games that allow animations like this or even turns to be skipped? Yeah. Until you prove this shit to not be true, talking about how hard the """"complex""""" Ogre dicks you take makes is shit that isn't relevant. Take the fucking L and fuck off, no one likes you and thinks you're a fucking tard.

>>3848401
You are projecting, all of it
Nobody is shoving TO on your face, you are imagining all of it in your head, schizo.
Oldfag schizo who thinks his big insults and words mean jackshit.
You love cocks so much that it sucks off your attention span, there are your "10/10 porn rpg maker games"

>>3848403
>keeps rambling about nothing because nooooo big baby is never wrong about anything
You were wrong. End of story until you prove this shit
>Do you need to show and animate every single thing? No. Are there games that allow animations like this or even turns to be skipped? Yeah.
and before your tard ass says b-but why do i need to do that it's because you fucking said it had to be shown and said other games didn't skip it all to pretend it's not slow or a problem
What a fag

>>3848408
>Do you need to show and animate every single thing? No. Are there games that allow animations like this or even turns to be skipped? Yeah.
>and before your tard ass says b-but why do i need to do that it's because you fucking said it had to be shown and said other games didn't skip it all to pretend it's not slow or a problem
I don't understand what you were talking about. Quote me, please in what you disagreed with me on

>>3848411
Is this the point in your epic tard story where you claim no one, including you, talked about how slow Tactics Ogre is and where you talked against everyone how it had to be slow because of complexity and every other games does it? Ebin.

>>3848416
"TO is allowed to be slow because it is more complex"
I don't necessarily claim it like that, I'm actually agreeing with you especially this one statement,
>Tactics Ogre doesn't have that because it was old and was never fixed. Tactics Ogre isn't even very deep or complex. Most of it is grinding and build autism.

But I also still think it's more complex than most SRPGs - even though it all boils down to build autism - I just think the systems are more detailed and fleshed out than most of them. Yes call me a fanboy on this one if you disagree - or at least provide an SRPG more complex - that is not older than it.

I still prefer FFT though - most of the complex things in TO are not that interesting to play around, just fun to theorize.

op here why are you people so fucking autistic

>>3848475
First day?

>>3848475
>people
It's just one tard people feed replies to. Those tards should always be ignored otherwise you end up with +200 posts of tard wrangling.

>>3847725
I played the Advance versions before I got into the original I think those were pretty fast paced and had a variety of fun side quests.

>>3848475
That one guy who hurl insults all the time to show that he is an oldfag

>>3848726
>act like an idiot
>get called an idiot
what a shocking turn of events

>>3848788
Touche

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>>3847725
Had the same thoughts after picking this up waiting for FFT
For better or worse, I zoomed zoomed to playing Triangle Strategy instead and it's been 10x more enjoyable while feeling like it's scratching the same itch
...besides build autism. Because the game is on rails as you can get. But honestly having 30+ generics that all have equipment and skill slots you can (and should) modify wasn't worth the squeeze for me even if it's clear TO is by far more ambitious, mature, and probably better designed.

>>3847725
Tactics Ogre is a game where I like nearly everything about it aside from its gameplay. The PSP version is okay in the sense that you can just use Archers to overpower everything. I don't have any experience with Rebirth but from the sounds of it, it doesn't sound much better. There's a fan mod called One Vision based off the PSP version which sounds interesting as it aims to make all classes useful but I have not played it. SNES/PSone might be the route to go.

.. in One vision mod:

I'm at the start of Chapter 2. What sort of skillsets i should be having on my characters?

Also, is this the point where i should get myself a Beastmaster? I'm guessing i'm going to need it later in Phorampa?

>>3850292
The game is pretty freeform regarding the classes you need in your team to be fair. if you have two healers on your team + a couple of item users you can pretty much get away with any configuration -- from cheesing it out with Ninjas and Archers to having a bunch of Knights and turtling it up. One Vision is a bit less grindy than the base game, and even less if you use cheats for experience gain, so play it as you go and worry about min/maxing until Chapter IV and when you can do the New Game+ where you can time travel and jump between routes.
For skills, I would recommend:
>Tame.
Promote someone to Dragoon as soon as you can and learn Tame if you want to get dragons early and auction them for extra income, items in the store and a headstart to recruit Deneb in Chapter IV with her special class. Dragoons can help you deal with dragons and beasts quickly, so keep an eye on skills like Dragonslayer/Beastslayer and Draconology and Teratology
>Field Alchemy I + II
Don't rely on Presance alone to heal everyone. Have three or four frontline characters with it if you need to deal with a debuff quickly or use Mending Seed in a pinch if the computer is ganging up on one of your characters. Canopus is really useful with this one.
>Knights
They can't only heal status and not HP with light magic in the OV mod but their skill Aegis is useful if you want to heal someone in a pinch with a bit of HP + Fortitude before a Cleric can do it. Phalanx (the rename for Rampart Shadow in the mod) is useful if you can deal ranged damage with other characters.
>Wizards and other magic users.
Go with Dark for the debuffs. if you want to pick from the other elements, choose Ice magic because, in the mod, that school lets you use a buff for Resilience (magic defense) and a debuff to burn TP off enemies.
Hope it helps.

>>3849623
Does it actually make all classes useful?

Also I played Reborn and didn't find archers OP, but maybe I didn't try for that hard enough. The game is fun either way. I know some people dislike the card system and I wish they remade it without that but gave you the option to playthrough with it as well. There's no reason they can't do that.

>>3851082
Reborn nerfed the archers :/

>>3847725
Literally every fight is the same or rather there are three fights:
>vanquish all (easy)
>vanquish overleveled leader (medium)
>vanquish all overleveled units and watch the chasm, but dont use ingame mechanics for necessary upgrades (hard or rather tedious)
That's all.

>>3847731
>Reborn
Buggy hell

I played all the older games that are like tor/fft including the two aforementioned.
Gungir, hoshi, vanguard aso..
Are there recent games that are similar enough? Lost Eidolons veil maybe or king Arthur trpg?

>>3851151
All of the TO versions have their share of issues. the most relevant bug in reborn for most of your gameplay is that 2h weapons don't offer their magic damage bonus, but mages were generally better off going 1h + shield/dagger anyway since it makes them less likely to die.

>>3851367
Shields are op, but there aren't many armor options in general for mages, armor like helms and shields.
The worst bug or class of bugs is the botched armor and elemental system.
>2h weapons
The way I see it, all 2h weapons boni don't work, not only for mages, but for other classes, too. Same with the stat boni for the off hand weapon. A ninja won't get double Str boni for two swords. That's likely the sole reason why they fucked this up, so that ninjas aren't too strong mid game.

>>3851375
I have never seen bonuses in plural like cactus.
Anyway the worst bug is defense types not working as intended.

>>3851436
That's what I'm saying. Armor aka defense types and elemental defense and attack boni. Armor not giving any boni. Worst part is that high water defense gives you flat % damage reduction TO FIRE.

>>3851515
I misunderstood. This shit has so many bugs or at least misleading names and UI it's hard to keep track.

>>3851522
I guess it's due to balancing reasons mixed with incompetence. The level caps are anything but fun. It's not even 'difficult', just slow and tedious. They could've remade the game entirely, but what we got was a sloppy remaster.

>>3851532
Level caps + easy fast way to reach them is just idiotic.
If they wanted something like a level cap then just balance an encounter for level 5 and put a level cap at level 8 or something with NO extra way to reach it fast. That way a player that wants to grind (or finds a cool way to do it fast) can do it but they will never stomp the encounter.

>>3851535
>NO extra way to reach it fast
Either this or have something like milestones for individual levle up, like kill 25 knights to unlock level 10 or so.
>Level caps + easy fast way to reach them is just idiotic.
1 forced training, lol

>>3848280
The way you choose to communicate is insipid and uninspired. Please don't say anything at all instead. Thank you.

>>3851375
>>3851436
>>3851515
>Weapons
2H Spellcasting bonuses in general dont work. Weapons generally only ever apply to themselves on use, except for shields due to their nature but you'd still carry an offhand option if they offer utility via specials or other things. Eg. 1H Katana + Bow Ninja were generally superior than Dual Wield for their ability to cripple enemies during the hardest parts of the game.
Btw ranged weapons feel like ass because the additional gear pieces that everyone gets by default tends to make them get memed on by their damage formula not being adjusted from psp when you had less gear. If you're strong enough to beat the damage scaling floor, then you'll do real damage.
>Armor
For whatever reason, it checks the defensive type that matches your equipped weapon. So if you use a slashing weapon, equip +slash gear. However, that only actually matters at the point where the gear curve flattens, since the other stats are more relevant.
>Elemental Wheel
This one is tricky.
STAB works, aka Fire with Fire gets a damage boost
Weakness works, aka Fire does more damage to Ice
Instills are a flat % damage on your attack and add whatever element you picked as a resist. This leads to stuff like Fire units running Instill Lightning for Water Resist.
And you get penalized for using abilities of an element you're weak to. For example, using Water attacks as a Fire character does less damage.
I know a lot of people complain that using an off element spell, eg Lightning as Fire should still deal SE damage on a Water unit, but IIRC in the original versions (SNES/PSX/Saturn and even TKOL since it uses the same system), you'd generally avoid using off element shit for offense because primary element (and terrain) were the most important modifiers.

Ruecession wrote a pretty detailed mechanics guide about what works and how they interact. Most of the issues dont actually matter until very late into the game when you get into bleeding edge optimization.

>>3851535
>>3851624
>>3851532
If you dont spam training, you're not going to ram the level cap outside of Chapter 3 when you're frozen as enemies steadily move upwards and Chapter 4 during the dungeon spam.
Level Caps exist to help stat growth autism since MP is the only stat that cant be charmed, and a lot of classes are useful but suck to actually grow in when they messed up Agi/Avo as stats (but those were always jank even in OV due to positional floors).

Which reminds me, they have all of these classes and the only generics that matter for growth for humans (and hawks) are Warrior, Swordmaster, Rune Fencer, Witch/Warlock, Lich and Vartan. You can cope with Necromancer if they come with it by default too but its not a meaningful upgrade on Witch.

>>3847728
>SNES voice acting
lmao

What finally broke me was making a character, forgot the class, but like a Mage Knight mix. And it had a move like confuse or something. I was like, alright, cool, I can use my brain a bit. This will be fun. Then I notice it shows chance of success for the spell. It was literally like 1%. So 1 out of 100 it lands. Fuck that shit.

>>3852560
>SNES to Saturn
Stack Dex
>PSP onwards
Stack Int/Mnd. Add Spellstrike.

Pure TKs have always been bad at landing ailments via magic. However, if you use 100% hit rate skills such as Fearful Impact, any status effect that's applied as a side effect of your melee weapon will always proc. Eg. The def down greatswords in Reborn or the stun weapons in OV.

On the PSX version of TO, how do you change classes?
I have a bunch of base warriors/amazons at lvl 5 but who have +60 dmg but can't change classes.
I keep reading about class marks but none of the stores sell them. I assume there are stat requirements but I can't find any guides on whether classes have stat requirements.

>>3854255
PSX TO don't have any classmarks - only attribute (STR, DEX, VIT, etc) and alignment (L,N,C) requirements
Try checking the info on the enemy classes you've not unlocked, it should reveal the class change requirements
Or if you are time-constrained go to this wonderful fansite (not mine):
http://luct.tacticsogre.com/academy.html

It's really frustrating how I'm playing the PS1 version of Tactics Ogre but all the guides I find for TO are for Reborn. So a bunch of gameplay mechanics are completely different.

How do the recruiting skills work in One vision mod?
So if i get a Beast tamer, i can train the skills to recruit beasts and dragons. If i change the class, can he learn the other recruiting skills? Can i put pretty much all of them to one character?

>>3854506
you could go look for the SNES version since that and the ps1 are the same. might have better luck that way

I want to like TO but I'm not really a fan of any of the game systems they have in play for any version. The closest one that resonates with me is LUCT but I dislike the fact that levels are tied to the entire class, not units, and level scaling makes it show no mercy towards your recently level 1 classchanged heroes

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Still one of my favorite characters in all of gaming.

>LUCT
SNES/PSX/Saturn
>Wheel of Fortune/Unmei no Wa
The PSP remake. However the west decided for whatever reason to use the original subtitle.
>Reborn
The modern remake.

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>kill this beastmaster's griffin
>everyone on my entire team gets debuffed to deal shit damage
>start immediately getting raped