Are arpgs the sub-genre that developed character building the most?
>>3848585Are you afraid of making a declarative statement?Why?
>>3848585Literally just FF10’s sphere grid. A fucking JRPG.
>>3848585>developed character buildingHaving tons of filler +1% shit isn't character building, it's padding.
>>3848585poe? surearpgs? nah
>>3848723>arpgs? NahWhat else then?
>>3848735roguelikes and its not even close
>>3848585>>3848594This. I'd say Pathfinder and D&D 3.5 have decent character builds. If you play on the hardest difficulties you'll see a lot of similarities in what builds take to survive, but you can do a lot of different shit with races, classes, feats, spells and sub-classes. Even more so with mythic paths in something like WOTR or epic levels in NWN.
Having a bunch of pointless bloat does not a good character build make.
>>3848585>choose between a gazillion different powerups that are all the fucking same except like 10 of them are 2% better during this patch according to calculations so don't be a pleb retard and follow the reddit build guide.WoahSuch depthMy meager brain cannot comprehend the depths at which those RPGs go to offer customization options
PoE, and other ARPGs, legitimately have a lot of build options, but, they aren't really just builds in the sense of character development. They are builds in that you have to farm for the gear to complete them for inordinate amounts of time. That shit really ain't "RPG" at that level, it's gamba and trading simulation.
>>3848585Anyone has interesting link about arpg gamedev? Loot tables and drops, how to design stats and abilities, balance, etc?
>>3848585It's not really about developing the genre, because the genre more or less got streamlined to appeal to as many people as possible, so games that truly delve into that kind of thing are fairly rare because its more complication for casual players. My dad is pretty casual and usually his complaint is games being too complicated, like he doesn't want to spend a huge amount of time learning how to play or build characters or whatever, he just likes things more straightforward and less "cluttered".
>>3849013*contAlso poe2 is a good example, there's a lot he likes about it, and then a lot he doesn't. The skill grid is overwhelming for a lot of people, and for more dedicated casual players, they just get discouraged because they're always wondering if they're doing something wrong with so many choices available to them.
>>3849014PoE's skill tree gets a lot less overwhelming, at least in poe2, when you just stop caring so much about being efficient and take the things you believe and/or think are useful for you at that moment.Unless you pick an absolute garbo skill or don't know anything at all about multiplicative inc damage sources you should be fine, at least for the campaign and early mapping.
>>384901397% of PoE players follow a build guide.Not because of the skill tree, but because of patch notes and balance changes and new items making you have to follow everything very closely to keep up. PoE is trying to be a "lifestyle" game, because they want people fully addicted and engaged on multiple levels even apart from playing the game.
Anybody have a good theory build for a Diablo 2 Resurrected character they haven't seen yet? I want to try something new. I'll look to try something myself but I'm wondering if anybody out there has a build idea. I know the game is so old and has been done over and over so it's not likely but sometimes theory crafting is fun.
>>3849053Well yeah, but he doesn't know that, and maybe he'll learn someday, but as he plays right now, he mostly just likes the mindless killing and farming and whatever. He doesn't take it seriously and doesn't really have any interest in learning more about it. So yeah, it's his problem, but that's a lot of people, and they don't really see it that way.>>3849054Probably. I don't follow a build, things just kind of make sense for me. My dad is pretty much the same way, doesn't care about builds or whatever and just plays for fun, hour or two randomly throughout the week. He'll get pretty far in the game for a casual player, will maybe even stick around with it longer than I normally would, but he puts way less effort into knowing anything about the game outside of what he learns just while playing.
>>3848856digging for d2 and poe dev interviews or conferences are the best you'll get (and they're pretty plentiful; the diablo guys have never shut up about their own game and ggg is still active)arpgs aren't really that developed of a genre desu there isn't a ton of games for the genre despite their popularity and there haven't been a lot of developers interested in making them. the two big ones have been iterated upon so much though im pretty sure you could just reverse engineer their design process if you tried hard enough or have enough experience in playing one you likethat's what last epoch and torchlight infinite did at least and they're the most popular games in the market right now. so was poe before them
>>3848856Look up exilecon panel talks and chris wilson's channel, they had a ton of content related to PoE development.
>>3849155>Probably. I don't follow a build, things just kind of make sense for meAh, you play at a very low level. Yeah, you can have fun doing virtually anything in any game.
>>3848585No, because ultimately all the choices boil down to different ways to kill shit in different ways. The best RPG’s provide you different answers to a a problem
>>3848591it's called a leading question
>>3849180It's called being a pussy.
>>3849178i generally quit around level mid 70's
>>3849205That's what averagely skilled hardcore PoE players reach in like 10 hours. Just be thankful you don't get addicted and can ignore most of it. Horrible game.
>>3849213Hardcore players reach it in 5. Most people can achieve a 4 hour or less campaign time without studying layouts
>>3849218I'm being overly generous, hence averagely skilled, and I haven't played in years, I'm sure it's getting faster and faster.
>>3849179Name a better game then
Nioh 2 is the best diablo-likejust leaving this here
>>3849358Pathfinder: RoTR
>>3849526*raffs*
>>3849528YWNBAW
>>3848585I like ARPGs when the number bloat is stripped back and the action is either more involved or less involved than standaerd games. For example, I love ToME4 and FFO: Stranger of Paradise, they both have ARPG style loot, lots of classes, and skill trees, but there's not as many useless "+2% fire damage while dual-wielding" skill tree paths and they're either less active (ToME is turn based) or more active (Stranger of Paradise has more involved combat). I can't stand regular ARPGs like Grim Dawn and Diablo.
>>3849530>A Troon-Haunted World, by Dr. Anon Sage-an
>>3849110I was thinking of making a thorns paladin that used conversion to create minions. It sounds terrible but might actually be able to complete the game with resurrection's buff to thorns.
>>3848595What I wanted to say. I'd rather have 20 skill tree entries and 10 artifacts that give me like 50 options for character builds, instead of> +0% when the dev is gay, else gain 0.1 health, this effects only works once in a lifetime.
>>3848585the lowest form of level up perks is like this, just +3 attack speed type shit, very uninteresting.
>>3850387AFAIK all modern games go this route. If not, they would have to think what exactly could be implemented. A skill tree should have few skills and plenty of customization. Maybe even sacrifce vit for higher mag and the like.
>>3849540My nigga. This is my main complain about ARPGs, they focus on the specticle and not much else.>You can blow up 10 billion mobs with this one buildYeah thats cool and all but isnt it just losing its prestige due to how standard it is? It would be cool IF it was challenging to do and IF it was a very niche thing and not the main focus of the game. Mobs in Diablo and its clones are simply sentient punching bags that are in your way towards the large sentient punching back that drops decent loot and it feels so unappealing it hurts. Why couldnt ARPGs copy Dungeon Siege instead? This was the best way to do ARPGs and yes while it does seem a bit mindless, i'd rather have a squad of 8 auto-attack a squad of mobs and wreck havok than use a single guy and spam a single ability to melt 10 billion mobs that give no experience or good loot so that i go to the next area and do the exact same thing for 3 hours.And to segway off of that, i would love it if you or anyone else here got any recommends with ARPGs similar to Dungeon Siege, miss with the mob-balls and skill tree-- no skill mazes.
>>3848778You kids are gonna have a lot of fun when you discover GURPS. It's dangerous to go alone, take this: https://gurpscharactersheet.com but you'll have to sail the high /tg/s if you want to get a link to the buried treasure books.
>>3848780What, you aren't vigorously masturbating at the thought of +1% hp???!
>>3852918>i'd rather have a squad of 8 auto-attack a squad of mobsYou played Dungeon Siege like a retard.
>>3848594Isn't this just +3 Str + 1mind and some skills inbetween?
>>3852918>Mobs in Diablo and its clones are simply sentient punching bags that are in your way towards the large sentient punching back that drops decent loot and it feels so unappealing it hurts.zoomie got filtered
>>3848585PoE tree is textbook example of fake depth. It's ridiculously massive but in fact there's only a few interesting keystones with everything else being +1% to base stat. Most of the "theorycraft" is settling on what stats you want and assigning their increases costs based on distance like you're some fucked up servitor tasked with doing pathfinding algorithms.
>>3853062I think so, too. It's vast, yet empty. Would you say that fake depth or illusion of choice works better than actual depth or choice? Viewed fom a benefit - cost - ratio standpoint.
>>3853062PoE's build depth isn't from the skill tree, really, it's from the itemization, skill gem system, and tree combined. There's a lot of depth and room for creativity when taken as a whole. The problem is that it's a live service game, so it has to constantly be changing for change's sake in order to keep people addicted and therefore so much shit gets lost or bloated or power crept or nerfed and creates a game with no foundation.
>>3853062Hard agree.
It's kinda funny how much FF7 and FFX influenced PoE, considering most of its playerbase probably aren't into jRPGs.
>>3853057>explain how the shtick of the game is to breeze through pointless mobs as fast as possible to reach a bigger mob without much thought>"lol zoomer"You really need to get checked anon
>>3853208>breeze through pointless mobs as fast as possible to reach a bigger mobThis is most video games. Not everything has to be cerebral.ARPGs are, at heart, just an optimization problem, so it's not what you do, but rather how efficiently you do it.
>>3853225Thing is, Diablo 1 was more methodical with its progression and while there is mob balls you need to go through, there was at least some weight into all this with staggering, movement speed and so on while Diablo 2 goes balls to the wall with flashy abilities and mobs that only serve as speed bumps towards your way to the big baddie. I dont say make every ARPG slow as fuck, im saying that there needs to be a balance in between methodical combat and specticle, or maybe its just me who wants something like that but the genre is already shaped differently so i must live with the pain.
>>3853230I just play roguelikes when I want something more methodical. For better or worse Diablo clones are a slot machine genre now and pulling the lever faster is always gonna feel better.
>>3853232Roguelikes are decent but they lack the RPG aspect altogether and its all about the thrill and the builds with a bit of bullshittery sprinkled on top which is fine of course but not what im looking for.
>>3853237>they lack the RPG aspectNot really, since they are themselves RPGs.
>>3852918Anything that copies Diablo is an ARPG slop.Look into Torchlights.(not anything past 2) They did the ARPG right even though the number bloat is still there.
>>3855829We used to call what are today called “ARPGs” Diablo-clones.
>>3855831Heh, you could say it's the FATE of the genre.
this is truly a genre for bugmen.
>>3852918>spam a single ability to melt 10 billion mobsScreen-wiping really ruined the genre.
>>3848778Nah. I play (too much) PoE1, as well as Pathfinder games. CRPGs do not come even close to PoE in terms of character building. That is fine, because you can't really have a story, along with so much character building freedom. Funnily enough, it's not that weird to compare their character building. While Pathfinder games are more obviously "auto battlers", where the result of combat is determined beforehand, this same is true of PoE(1). In that game, you do content as a test of that character, and especially in hardcore mode, you have to account for a lot of differing modifiers and ailments, which makes for engaging character building and itemization. Couple this with SSF and you have, essentially, a really satisfying roguelite.
>>3850384That only applies to PoE2. PoE1's skill tree is really strong. It was made much weaker for PoE2, so that new players do not suffer from "wrong" choices as much.
>>3849213>>3849218>>3849219Not really average. I played the recent league start. It had a boss race with meaningful rewards in HCSSF, so decent amount of players. I was top 100, when I was >80, Ben and the like were 90, around 9 to 10 hours after league start. EU servers shat the bed, so I started around one hour later.
>>3848585>arpgsnot rpgs>but muh sub-genreno such thing>but but...what is an rpg without an a then?that's right, it's an actual rpg
>>3856574>not rpgsStats dictate performance of character so yes they are.>no such thingHoly retard.>what is an rpg without an a then?Disco elysium.
