Hit things.

Give them abilities to affect the tactical situation. Grappling, tripping, disarming, pushing, pulling, stunning, etc. then you can also make hitting things more interesting, like sweep attacks or conditional crits.

It's really a dearth of imagination on the part of developers, or obnoxious devotion to making casters the stars of the show, if all fighters can do every round is hit thing. Every single study of combat in history involves maneuvers to put opponents in disadvantageous positions rather than just trying to whack them harder, and this was especially true when armor got really good and having a dominant position to be able to deliver a killing blow was imperative.

leap hundreds of feat in a single bound, climb cliffs faster and better than a mountain goat, holding breath underwater for hours while swimming and fighting. any sort of epic feats of toughness and strength are viable.

>>3866586
>superhero capeshit
That's literally magic, anon. It's literally magic even in those stories.

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>>3866484
odd techniques and perhaps fighting game inspired combos.

>>3866597
it's a just game bro, chill out. it's all for fun.

>>3866484
Notice how this isnt a problem for action and tactical rpgs?

anyway give them a horse

>>3866484
I'd like an RPG that has somewhat forced party composition of like 4 fighters and 1 mage, with the mage being vastly more tactically critical for anything than any of the fighters. But the fighters have complicated rules for blocking and interception that make them as interesting as a unit of 4 for facilitating and protecting the mage as the mage itself.

>>3866484
Make it a tactical game where tanking, strength, size and hand-to-hand melee abilities have tactical significance. Emphasize the group-level tactical decisions more than first-person gimmicks.

>>3866698
I'd do the opposite, were I to ever replay Dragon's Dogma, I would do so with a martial main character, and three custom sorceress pawns to sit in the back and spam triple meteors and shit

>>3866484
In a world with magic, if you want to fight strong threats you also need magic, period. What lots of fantasy series do for non-magical classes like the "fighter" is having him use a legendary sword he got after being blessed by the goddess, alongside a magical bow he got as a reward from saving a village of elves, an invisibility cape he got from the corpse of a wizard he killed, a ring he got from fulfilling a prophecy and so on. At this point your fighter is another flavor of a spellsword except without MP.

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>>3866830
>In a world with magic, if you want to fight strong threats you also need magic, period
Wrong.

Equipment and superior combat ability. If you just tack on special abilities, then you're making them casters that don't use MP. Base a fighter's variance on their equipment, which dictates fighting style, and you don't need special abilities to add flavor. Tactics and strategy comes from positioning and fighting style (equipment). Magical equipment further enhances this idea. You need to let fighters use everything well enough, though. No gatekeeping basic equipment use. Fighters shine when they are low micro blenders or juggernauts, buffed up by the team and their magical equipment. Leave the micro intensive stuff to thieves and casters or you'll end up with players getting burnt out by too much micromanagement.

>>3866830
>In a world with magic, if you want to fight strong threats you also need magic, period.
No, you hire an assassin or a bounty hunter, aka someone who can stealth and use poison or traps.

Give them the ability to pin down enemy mages and force their tongues into the mouths of those mages to prevent spellcasting

>>3866830
>in a world with magic
Interesting start
>You need magic, period
False, when the caster is out of spells (vancian) or MP (most good games), suddenly you can just fuck him in front of his friends.

>>3866906
And make all enemy mages females

>>3866912
Well, if they're high enough level they basically become an infinite fount of magic, so that doesn't work anymore.

>>3866484
By role-playing.

>>3866906
>Give them the ability to pin down enemy mages and force their tongues into the mouths of those mages to prevent spellcasting
Interesting start
>>3866914
>And make all enemy mages females
Ruined it

>>3866484
D&D "solved" this with Battle Master.

>>3866484
Might and magic dark messiah solved this ages ago. Make combat fun and engaging simple as.

>>3866914
Women are not rational enough to be trusted with magic.

>>3866698
Its an SRPG but Langrisser has individual generals, some of whom are mages, and from there you can deploy simple units like warriors around them so you kind of create the dynamic you are describing.

what's even the difference between magic and non-magic attacks in most games?
one you're pushing a button "cast" a "spell" that does 10 damage
the other you're pushing a button to "throw" a "punch" that does 10 damage.

>>3866570
SPBP

>>3867020
>video "games" reduced to button presses
Whatever will we do?!?!

>>3866914
Wrong. Men are the incarnation of fire and air, the incorporeal spirits. Women are the incarnation of water and earth, the physical, the corporeal.

>>3867120
Women are meant for healing: water and earth are healing elements.
Fire and air are killing elements, and are suitable to men.
A woman should only be using healing magic channeled through the infinite love and wisdom of Allah.

>>3867402
>Allah
Stopped reading here. Opinion discarded.

>>3867406
>you stopped reading at the end
Thank you.

>>3867077
I don't think you understood, or perhaps I just worded it wrong.
In a lot of rpgs the only difference between an attack and magical attack is a name or animation. It's only magic because the game tells you it's magic.
If you want a pure fighter character, how do you want to actually convey that when most rpgs have utterly barebones combat mechanics to begin with?

>>3866484
The Dark EYe (basically german D&D) did this thing were warriors and soldiers were separate classes cuz it included negative traits. A soldier is disciplined and thus less prone to act violently out of the blue like a warrior would, who'd be essentially a thug. You'd have to give strong RP reasons to make you choose one over the other (all crpg versions of TDE suck becuase of it)

>>3867445
>In a lot of rpgs the only difference between an attack and magical attack is a name or animation.
Name three.
In any of the RPGs I can think of, there are numerous differences.
>Damage type (fire, holy, blunt, slashing, etc)
>Resource cost (Mana, etc)
>Effect radius

>>3867470
since all these distinctions actually exist, what's op's issue?
sounds like pure fighters with interesting mechanics are already a thing

>>3867477
I responded to an incorrect claim about there being no objective differences between melee and magic.
FagOP is complaining about melee characters specifically not having enough choice.

>>3867623
>FagOP is complaining
That's quite the projection.

>>3867631
Wrong, it's a purely objective assessment.
OP did not bother thinking for more than two seconds about the topic before posting the low-effort bait. It's an old tale, predating the spread of AI. But OP, cocksucker he may be, is at least not completely braindead like 3867477, who fails to understand the most basic shit and posts anyway. This typical of /vrpg/, which has always been infested by people with severe mental handicaps.

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>>3867721

>>3867020
physical defense and magical defense
Next question please

Fighters are cunningly brutal, and hit you when you’re looking.
Mages are brutally cunning, and hit you when you’re not looking.

>>3867721
If it was objectively true, then you would be able to point to the exact words used that establish complaint, but you haven't even done that and you can't.

>>3866570
You underestimate the importance of positioning and equipment usage. Positioning is inherently vital.

>>3867758
>>3867997
Can you retards try posting on-topic?

>>3868253
>posts off-topic about others posting off-topic
Based retard.

>>3866484
If the setting's grounded? Be yourself.
If it's magical, you use magic.
>Actually, a fighter with the strength to swing a greatsword like it was a butter knife is NOT magic!
lol

>>3868260
This is just fantasy shit, so I am going to accept it if someone calls me a faggot, but fighters can be useful a lot sooner than spellcasters since swords never run out of uses in most RPGs.

>>3868274
>but fighters can be useful a lot sooner than spellcasters since swords never run out of uses in most RPGs.
Well that depends on the dev.
Some will give warriors totally-not-mana or stuff like rage. Other as you say will go venetian and have the mage become a walking pile of bones after some spellcasts while the warrior is all good to go.

>>3868419
>Some will give warriors totally-not-mana or stuff like rage.
Stamina actually makes some sense. Rage building and similar is mostly just a gamey gimmick.

>>3866484
They use mana, but you could remove it and the Etrian games are still a festival of cool fighter gameplay.

-Moves that only trigger if allies get certain skills off
-Delayed payoff moves which tie you into a single future turn where you want max de/buffs
- Time limited berserk mode where you burn your own HP to attack
- Moves that steal or regen HP for other frontline allies
- Low accuracy moves which always hit if the enemy has a certain status
- Moves which change your stance [buffs] after use
- Moves that act at the end of the round and debuff your defence till they land

>>3866484
I'm doing it in my game with what I call Combat Arts.
Every weapon type starts out with a natural attack that's middle of the road for everything. But you can also learn or create your own combat arts for each weapon type.
So maybe you make one that takes more time to do, and does more damage. Or you can even try making one that just does more damage just as quickly as the natural attack, but at the cost of more Stamina.
You can also give your combat arts different effects like Disarm, Stun, Confusion, Intimidation, Armor Break, Bleed, Stagger, Weakness, and so on.

>>3866570
>Give them abilities to affect the tactical situation.

Not just personal abilities but inter-personal abilities. Fighters have been through terrible shit and done terrible things to survive in combat, and should be able to understand what any sort of fight, from a bar room brawl to open field warfare actually requires.
What causes a squad of men to rout from the fight, what causes the middle leadership to abandon their loyalty to their superiors, what depths of stupidity and neglect the royalty can enact which causes a revolt among their own people.

Fighters should understand these things better than magic users can, because they were spending time among the people instead of on journeys of discovering ancient knowledge. While the magic users can cast a spell to enforce loyalty as through a charm or hex, a fighter should be able to speak to what already exists within someone's heart and either embolden it to do an insane feat of courage on its own, or to crush any resistance and force the opponent into a defeat before the fight had ever begun.

Magic Users create magical fear within the opponent by artificial means. (pouring more liquid into a container until it overflows)
Fighters exploit and amplify existing natural fears in the opponent. (the enemy fears wolves? wear a wolf skin, move on all fours, howl in the night, savage a corpse to make it look eaten, etc)

>>3866570
I shall tactically use my enemies as human shields

>>3866484
movesets tied to weapons and maybe some combos like a fighting game, jank and all. If you look at fighting irl, there are all sorts of opinions on how to fight the best, tekken, street fighter, and soul calibur were able to make that interesting, not sure what the hang-up is.

>>3866484
You just put other bells and whistles on them. Give them a special trait. Special techniques that don't rely on MP. Their gear and itemization can make them stand apart. Most importantly you have enemies that are tougher for him but easier for others because of what he lacks and you make enemies that are easier for him but tougher for others because of his strengths. You make sure that either nobody else encroaches on his niche in the party or if they do they're not as good as he is.

(Have to be extra careful not to steal spotlight from main character. Like for example Maxim in Lufia 2 is a little badass who is stronger than Tia when she joins up. Not only that, but at the moment you get Insect Crush, Maxim can dominate the many insect-type enemies that are around him. To further make him feel like a powerhouse, the IP attack on Insect Crush is an AoE attack against all enemies that usually wipes the screen early game.

... and then Tia starts getting useful spells. Maxim does have MP and magic, but he's the weakest spell caster in the game. Moreover the predominate majority of enemies are weak to fire spells and Maxim lacks the ability to any fire magic. Eventually Insect Crush's power falls off and Maxim never really gets another weapon to really make him stand out. Sure, you can get end game gear early in the Ancient Cave, but you can slap those weapons on multiple different characters, Maxim's not unique. On top of that you start getting Guy and Dekar who're pure melee fighters with no MP or magic whatsoever... and they're powerhouses that outscale Maxim's damage. Maxim begins to feel worse as his shortcomings get more highlighted.)

>>3873279
>not sure what the hang-up is.
RPG combat is turn-based (or at least "decision-oriented") and abstracts those details. You can definitely implement "weapon movesets" in a turn-based system but I pretty much guarantee you have never thought deeply about what that would actually be like to play.
>But ARPGs
A hybrid genre and the combat element is specifically the part that isn't from the RPG side.

>>3866484
Let you swing the weapon in many different ways

>>3871729
Cool it with the antisemitism

>>3866484
mechanically?
some sort of special movement technique specific to that class

writing-wise?
idk theres so many well-worn stereotype pitfalls you could accidentally fall in trying to make an interesting fighter. definitely stay far away from the tired old cliches of "revenge" and whatnot

>>3866484
Why can't they have MP? I'm assuming you mean magic points or mana points. Why shouldn't characters have limited resources they have to manage in order to gate their access to their special abilities? Whatever that resource is called. If you don't like it being called magic points, call it whatever. Stamina. Power. Energy. Whatever. By the way, that's what "mana" means, you know...

>>3881624
It's very clear from context in the OP "no MP" is supposed to be synonymous with "pure fighter" which means no magic.

There are essentially three major archetypes for an RPG with fantasy combat: Fighter, Rogue, and Mage. The Fighter relies on combat skills and physical prowess. The Rogue relies on wit, cleverness and will to break rules. The Mage employs supernatural powers. There are additional secondary roles, like Leader or Thinker (strategist, scholar etc), but those rarely rise to the level of a class archetype.

So a "pure fighter" by definition cannot use supernatural powers. You can give them a resource like stamina, but to be a "pure fighter" this resource cannot be used to invoke supernatural powers.

The reason this debate happens is because so often, tactical decisions RPG combat revolve around use of supernatural powers. Mages (and Priests/Clerics/etc) often have an array of dramatically different combat options to suit different scenarios. A good player is rewarded for using the best spell at a given time and place. Meanwhile, a fighter's options are is comparatively narrow: use weapons and armor skillfully and powerfully to defeat the opponent in direct combat.

Lots of ideas in this thread for ways to handle this.

>>3881751
Based. Leave the magic to those fruity ass elves lololol dumb bitch elves

>>3881726
That's not obvious at all. Your entire comment and the OP absolutely fucking stinks of D&D. Fix that shit. Go take a fucking bath. Fucking fix that shit, then you can maybe be allowed to sit and listen. Quietly.

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>>3866830
>if you want to fight strong threats you also need magic, period

>shoots you in the heart from 600 feet away
Nothing personnel, wizard.

>>3866484
The classic Fight command is now a tab where you can choose different kind of stuff for free. + Special Attacks that activate by RNG or thanks to a condition being fufilled. For Example, if up to 3 enemies are adjacent to each others, when attacking with a polearm, you do a wide swing that strike the 3 enemies at once. The special attacks are toggable in and out of combat so that you don't "fire" them by accident.
To balance things out, your remaining HP directly affect your hit/parry chance, and your character need to learn how to fight before having the entire Fight command and the special attacks.

>>3866484
What makes a kickboxer better than some rando in a bar fight

>>3881912
The ability to actually hit something meaningful instead of flailing your arms?

>>3881754
What possessed you to make such an empty and pointless, yet rage-filled post?

>>3868419
>Other as you say will go venetian
Power Word, Blind sucks though.
>t. I'll see myself out

>>3881963
Seems pretty clear from the context of the conversation. Scroll up, anon.

>>3883106
Still waiting for you to make a relevant point.
>inb4 nta as if it matters

>>3866484
Ideally, you give them a moveset or tactics that allow them to do things other classes can't. I think a good example is the newer Dragon Quest games that give warriors skills that make them useful and unique, like forebearance, double up, and the cutter abilities. They can do massive melee damage or ignite their melee weapons with elemental damage. My DQ2 remake fighter does about 1,500 melee damage on an unbuffed boss while my mages can barely hit 300.

I think the Magic Knights in FF3 did that well, too. They couldn't cast spells, but their swords could be ignited to have spell effects. Of course, this path makes them more a gimped mage than a true warrior, so..

>>3881925
One valid point. In 5e magic can miss alright.
>>3883128
That's so Japanese.
>he doesn't strike with his sword, he enchants his sword and then strikes with his sword.
Basically attacking with a sword + magic. Hardly the best thing imaginable.

>>3883142
Oh, so your problem isn't actually with game design, your problem is one of setting design. Those are ENTIRELY different things.

Basically, the problem you're having is that you want a real actual human guy with a sword to somehow be significant compared to people who can reshape reality with their will. And that's just fucking stupid. You can't have it both ways. Either accept that the premise you've constructed for yourself necessarily means that dumb regular guy with a sword is irrelevant or else accept that game design isn't limited by your ridiculous arbitrary notions about setting conceits.

Your problem is that you've defined "magic" in such a way for yourself. Hercules was "magic" because he was a demigod so all his feats of strength and might were just magic. Achilles was "magic" so his invincibility and epic skills as a warrior were just magic. Aragon was a half elf, so him being able to survive a fight with orcs while killing like a dozen of them in that tomb in Moria was just magic...

It's a game, dumbass. The characters do whatever the fuck the game lets them do. They hit stuff really hard? Cool. Is it with an item named "sword" or is it with an item named "fire bolt"? Does it matter? Only aesthetically. And aesthetics are subjective. Only you can decide for yourself what you find aesthetically acceptable. You have to choose that. No one else can choose it for you.

Let me know if you're still having difficulty getting over yourself.

>>3883124
You're the one with the burden of making a point, anon. The ball is in your court.

>>3866597
Not magic, just "jump good"

>>3883144
>sword to somehow be significant
Pretty sure that fighters can hold up with mages in combat
Other than that: not all mages are skillful.
>reshape reality with their will
Not how magic works in any setting I can think of rn

>>3883144
>that's just fucking stupid
Got cut off by auto ffs. It is.
>fighter is irrelevant
Not in a single setting I can think of. Especially in 5e they are monsters. This is the true problem. They are melee mages, much like the magic knights in Ff3. In 5e fighters get like time jump. In the earlier editions they had hp, while mages had spells. Nowadays mages in 5e are pretty beefy hp wise. 5e is the pinnacle of apoeasing fans.
>Hercules was "magic"
Exactly.
>Does it matter? Only aesthetically
Disagree. It matters on a thematic level. If you are interested in lore and world building, feats and the like boil down to metal damage vs fire damage and that's boring. It should be more than just aesthetic. Who says that mages have to have offensive spells at all? Players. No one wants to be a heal bitch without a way to sling damage around. Thematically it might be fun if mages are defensive only or if there are eunoch shield bearers, huge and pacifist. Since 4e fighters have magic, because fighter enjoyers complained that they can't do shit except bonk or with sword during combat. Tg ey wanted to use more dice each round.

>>3883145
The point is already made. Mechanics have been described and even with explanation on why they are unique. Burden is now on you to rebut the argument. But you can't because you don't actually have any idea what you're talking about and are just shitting up the thread with nonsense shitposting.

>>3883157
>Pretty sure that fighters can hold up with mages in combat
Says who? In what game? Or do you mean in literature? Which novel?

>>3883211
1vs1 in plenty of games. Evidently in many jrpgs, in ie games, neverwinter, too. Mages as playable characters often have lousy defense. Makes little sense, really. Why do they have to skip weightlifting?

>>3866484
>stances
>buffs and debuffs (inspires party with how brave and sexy you are/ intimidate foes with your sexiness, also stuff like drawing attacks, or crippling limbs like the fighter from EOV

Also just a man with a humble sword in a world of monster's, mages, and monks with god powers being able to dominate is just sexy.

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>>3866484
1. Cast from HP. The strongest attacks a fighter can bring to bear are physically exhausting to perform, and thus the main resource a fighter would draw upon would be their physical health. The primary limit to a fighter's ability to wage war is how far they can exert themselves before they collapse.

2. Cooldown abilities. A fighter's most effective moves rely on the element of surprise, and thus would take several turns until they're usable again.

3. Action economy. At their pinnacle, a fighters movements and reflexes should be honed to the point where they can make two or three moves in the time it takes for a lesser man to make one. Using tools (ie firing a pistol, or flinging pocket sand) or taking stances as free actions, moving twice or thrice in one turn, or reactions to things other characters do (ie punch a mage in the face to interrupt casting, or follow up an ally's strike with your own). Seperate reactions into two categories - ones which are just active all the time, and ones that need an action to ready. Mage-punching is just something that's active all the time, but you could also spend an action (much more feasible if you can take more than one per turn!) to watch out for your allies and GET DOWN MISTER PRESIDENT them if an attack is about to kill them.

4. External magic. A fighter might not use magic, but that doesn't mean they can't benefit from it. See FF9, where Vivi casts magic on Steiner's sword to boost his attacks.

5. Alternate uses of MP. While mages obviously make the best use of MP, that doesn't mean that fighters can't also use their brains. Yelling out commands, coming up with strategies, fighting smart instead of fighting hard - these are all things that a physical fighter can do that involve mental exertion rather than physical exertion. A fighters pool of MP might be significantly smaller than a mages pool, but that doesn't mean it isn't just as valuable.

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>>3884516
6. Effective use of equipment. A skilled fighter would know more uses for a sword than an amateur - a beginner might know how to swing a sword to cut people but a master knows that they can also grab the sword by the blade to bludgeon people with the guard and hilt, much more effective against solid armor. A high level fighter would have additional actions available with weapons that a lesser warrior would lack access to.

7. More equipment. A master warrior wouldn't just be restricted to bringing one weapon into combat, even if they can only USE one at a time. You've all seen that gag where a guy is told to remove all his weapons, and they end up making a pile of steel that makes everyone around them react with shock. "Where was he hiding all that stuff?" Thus, a high-level fighter would be able to go into combat with multiple backup weapons - their primary weapon might be a legendary sword forged by a god, but they also carry an ice dagger to handle flaming monsters, a dragon-slaying bow to take out dragons, and a dozen other niche tools just in case.

8. Ammunition. In relation to the above, a fighter would, uniquely, actually have Vancian casting for some of their most effective moves. They leave camp fully loaded - a dozen throwing knives, a revolver with six bullets and three reloads, a variety of arrows etc etc. And while they can spend time recovering throwing knives after a battle is won, they won't be able to replace spent bullets until they can access their logistics chain.

>>3866570
>Every single study of combat in history involves maneuvers to put opponents in disadvantageous positions rather than just trying to whack them harder
yes, usually involved range weapons or melee weapons with long range

>>3886153
The enemy cannot push a button if you disable his hand.

>>3866484
Wide arrays of weapons, armors, ect, that fill specific situational niches.
The death of this archetype is combat boiling down to "I hit him really, really hard", when the strengths lie in being in a position where you need to scrape for your advantages. You need to understand your enemy, and leverage their weaknesses against them. A good melee character should feel like batman, who needs to figure out what of the gadgets on his toolbelt will actually be effective here.

>>3866914
Yea, I don't know

>>3883157
>Not how magic works in any setting I can think of rn
Making something out of nothing is literally that

>>3866484
>Variety of weapons with meaningful mechanical distinction
>enemies that are vulnerable to different weapon types
>ability to swap those weapons on the fly
>ability to chain together various moves
>combat maneuvers galore
>aimed attacks with varied effects
>evolving action economy
>varied defensive options
>ability to lock down enemy moves by grappling/crippling
>called actions
>inflicting statuses, e.g. pocket sand/eye poke works just fine to inflict Bkind

>>3871508
This anon nailed it. Well articulated explanation.

>>3866484
Depends on the system. The simple and boring fighter will always be better than the hyper autistic micromanaging shitfest of a bad magic system