>>3867685
Dark Souls is great

>>3867698
>>3867685
True, but not an rpg.

>>3867685
for me it's Sekiro
that's where combat peaked
the only thing it lacked is magic
but Fromsoft magic sucks anyway
they never managed to balance it and playing a mage ruins the games

anyway if someone can take Sekiro combat and add magic to it, without unbalancing it, ARPG combat will have been solved

>>3867685
Not an RPG. Very clearly and definitely not an RPG. Do you think Call Of Duty is an RPG because you like to fantasize about being an Army private on deployment in Iraq?

>>3867709
>>3867728
swords and potions = rpg

>>3867685
good taste anon

>>3867685
I feel like playing vanilla DS2 for the nostalgia. Anyone have ideas on fun characters and playstyles, like utilizing utility magic?

Last time I roleplayed a plain knight, and I'm not opposed to doing that again.

>>3868022
you should go with DEX because its shit but your secondary tools become alot more powerful.

i bought SOTFS two days ago because ive never played it and im retarded so i couldnt remember how to get to Forest of Fallen Giants and did Heides first in the first hour. havnt decided what i want to run because i dont remember shit about DS2 weapons

>>3868045
DS2 seems like the one where magic is the most fun, probably in park because the combat feels like such shit.

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>>3867685
I like it more. Yeah i have autism for it

>>3868045
For a bit I regretted not going with dexterity and spears, but then a bastard sword dropped and I haven't second guessed since then. Comfortable to use, and the slam attack is perfect for crystal lizards.

Still wearing the hard leather set because it looks most fitting for the character.

>>3868121
Holy crap lol. I thought I was autistic with 800 hours or so

>>3868083
the enemies in all 3 dlcs have massive magic resist because dark souls 2 is a shit game

>>3867685
Dark Souls 2 is the King's Field of dark souls

>>3867728
do you level up your character in Call of duty?
do you spec into a certain weapon type?
are there stat requirements in Call of duty?
is there a questline to follow in call of duty?
do you explore a fantasy realm?
are there bosses?
are certain elements more effective against certain enemies?
do you have magical items to use?
can you buff yourself or debuff others?
do you create a character at all?

shut the fuck up you cunt and make my Call of Duty Souls it sounds good

>>3868146
i give up on stats for armor about 1/3 through the game when im still getting 2 shot and the faraam knight set with Vengarl's helm or something is too alluring

this game is genius
but when i go to revisit and i want a casual rpg romp
i am raped
maybe it should be that way though

>>3868336
That's just Borderlands bro.

>>3867728
Correct
>>3868336
>do you explore a fantasy realm?
Lordran is a classic theme-park game world that doesn't make sense as anything but a videogame. No cities or towns, no kingdoms or
>do you level up your character in Call of duty?
>are there stat requirements in Call of duty?
>do you spec into a certain weapon type?
>is there a questline to follow in call of duty?
>are there bosses?
>are certain elements more effective against certain enemies?
>do you have magical items to use?
>can you buff yourself or debuff others?
>do you create a character at all?
None of these things are defining features of an RPG. Only "explore a Fantasy realm" really comes close, and Dark Souls fails that one.

I made a new character and started thinking that forest of the fallen giants is peak Souls. Both DS1 and 2 would have benefited from having similarly large, interconnected and complex levels in the second half, mixed between those more linear levels.

Returning to the first level later in the game, like in DS2, is always kino.

>>3868657
>None of these things are defining features of an RPG.
What is?

>>3869166
>What is?
A game you roleplay in.

>>3869168
Such as?

>>3869166
>What is?
Wargame-style mechanics.
An RPG is when you take a strategic+tactical wargame and play from the perspective of a unit on the field rather than the troop commander, and you emphasize independent adventure rather than military conflict. This foundation yields a large genre with many subgenres that emphasize different aspects. Experience and levels are secondary elements-- consequences of the premise, not essential features. Consider you can play an RPG for hours and not gain any levels. What is all that gameplay in between level-ups?

An ARPG is a hybrid, where you basically take a style of fully fleshed-out game that evolved from the "tactical-wargame" premise, and swap out the combat for action gameplay. Because an action game is fundamentally NOT an RPG, there is an inherent tension between the two. It boils down to what the game is actually like to play.

Consider the gameplay loop of Dark Souls:

1. Attempt to make your way through a sequence of action combat challenges, with occasional puzzles or environmental hazards to mix it up. You're rewarded with currency (souls) as you proceed.
2. Along the way, you may encounter NPCs who may help you with hints or items for sale, and checkpoints where you can buy stat upgrades.
3. Frequent deaths are expected as you master the challenges. When you die, you immediately respawn to try again from the last checkpoint.
4. Defeat the boss and proceed to the next level, repeat.

This is the gameplay loop of roughly every action game ever, and NOT of most RPGs. Many action games even have NPCs and shopkeepers. I remember as far back as Gun.Smoke on NES, buying weapon upgrades from shops. In Mega Man, you win upgrades from beating the bosses.

>>3869166
Does your game vaguely resembles one of the following game series:
>Ultima, Wizardry, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy (before it became action), Baldur's Gate, Fallout (before it became an FPS), Pokemon
as in, if there's a fan of one of these games and they're looking for something similar, can I recommend your game and expect them to like it? If yes, your game is an RPG. Trying to make a checklist of features to decide if a game is or not part of a genre doesn't help anyone.

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>>3869302
that's cute, but the concept of RPG existed before those video games were made
dark souls is clearly an rpg, as other have already pointed out in this thread
it's probably closer to the traditional pen and paper role playing games than most of the interactive fiction that's sold as RPG these days
the difference is that some of the action or conflict resolutions depend on player skill instead of rolling dice
rpgs rely on dice because they're based on war games that originally relied on real world statistical data to attempt to model complex behaviors. it's a good idea, and it works pretty well
but using something else doesn't radically change the identity of the rest of the game
one of the earliest (purely recreational) war games used player skill in much the same way that action role playing games do
>Little Wars included fairly simple rules for infantry, cavalry, and artillery in the form of a toy 4.7 inch gun that launched projectiles, usually small wooden dowels to knock down enemy soldiers.

>>3869316
>that's cute, but the concept of RPG existed before those video games were made
I know, of course you had D&D and wargames before anything I named. But in the context of a board made for discussing RPGs, where people come here to discuss mostly either the games I named or games similar to them, saying that
>well, actually this other game technically fits
doesn't help when what actually matters is the community. You'd get more and better Souls discussion when talking to an action game fan than talking to a JRPG fan so grouping it up with other RPGs helps no one.

>>3869302
Your list misses a number of turn-based tactical RPGs that are a bread-and-butter part of the genre. (eg Gold Box D&D games)
But your basic approach is far superior to the litmus tests retards use like:
>does it have xp and levels?
>does it have multiple-choice dialogs?
>can you customize your character?

>>3869316
You've made some serious mistakes that have led you to very wrong conclusions.
>the difference is that some of the action or conflict resolutions depend on player skill instead of rolling dice
You've failed to notice that the relevant mechanic isn't dice, it's decisions. It's not "dice" vs "player skill." That is a retard reduction.
The distinction is between tactical decision-making and testing reflexes, hand-eye coordination and mastery of technical challenges.

In a wargame, the players decide the formations, chose the targets and move troops to fulfill various roles. That the conflicts are resolved by miniature projectiles is simply replacing the dice. It doesn't fundamentally change the ~decision-oriented emphasis~ of the game. Take MMORPGs like EQ and WoW. They are real-time, not turn-based and random chance is often minimized. But because the gameplay is still primarily about making tactical and resource decisions, it registers as an RPG.

Dark Souls is NOT a game primarily oriented around tactical decision-making. There are some tactics involved, but the game is primarily oriented around reflexes and hand-eye coordination. You learn the timings of your weapon's moveset and roll speed of your armor level. You learn the timing of the enemy movesets and figure out the vulnerabilities

>one of the earliest (purely recreational) war games used player skill [like ARPGs]
Yes, actual ARPGs.
Not Dark Souls, which retains almost none of the wargame elements of tactical decision-making and resource management, and very little of the "adventure in a world" element that distinguishes RPGs from wargames in the first place.

Go make a "what is RPG" thread

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>>3869316
(continued from 3869337)
You also have to consider the history of videogames, not just RPGs.
Action games are a well-established genre. We know what they look like. They feature a sequence of challenges that test a player's reflexes and hand-eye coordination. They evolved systems of tries or lives, checkpoints, levels (or "boards"), often taking place in a purely abstract gamespace with only the most passing references to any kind of realistic world.

These are very different from RPGs, which almost never have that "try and try again" formula as their basis. Indeed it's often the opposite, with a strong emphasis on decisions having consequences you must live with. Even casual RPGs usually just make the "consequences" very easy to recover from. Eg in Final Fantasy if a character get's KO'd, it's usually easy to revive them quickly. This is not the same as respawning automatically at a checkpoint after falling into a pit.

A little of the "try repeatedly" does bleed into RPGs, given the nature of videogames. But this dynamic has long been derided as "savescumming" in RPG communities.

>>3869344
>Go make a "what is RPG" thread
Please don't

mom i posted it again

>>3868336
Is God Hand an RPG then?

>>3869356
Otherwise these redditors swarm every thread every week posting their grand ideas on genres, not realizing that no one gives a shit

>>3868336
what a stupid post.

>>3869368
This is the bait thread, let it be the bait thread. don't go asking for more like a fucking retard. There's no foundation for positive discussion of Dark Souls here so there's nothing lost.

>no NPC interactions
>no dialogue options
>no actual story to follow and make decisions in
>no stealth because you're supposed to le fight everything
>using magic means doing the same animation for all spells to shoot some bolt
>game boils down to barrel-rolling around enemies waiting for 0.1s window of attack
>designed for fucking consoles - we couldn't ask you to aim with controller, so here is your target lock, faggot. enjoy

Please remind me why these games became relevant.

>get to drangleic castle
>die a couple of times
>"wtf is this difficulty spike"
>remember that i joined CoC for farming

as jrpgs go its bretty guud

i like to to roleplay as a sad beef jerky man wielding a big sword too

Accidentally deleted my spellsword's save file at Shrine of Amana. Thankfully I had another character at Drangleic castle, so I didn't have to restart or quit playing. Never been more grateful for being able to respec.

Shrine of Amana is probably the coolest concept for a level. If any area deserved proper level design, it would have been this one. Wading through water and ruins while Milfs sing. Great atmosphere. Even the boss stands out after all the knight fights.

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>>3869409
>no NPC interactions
>no dialogue options
>no actual story to follow and make decisions in
>no stealth because you're supposed to le fight everything
All completely false claims about Dark souls
(Dialogue options and story decisions doesn't mean a game is an RPG, and lack of them doesn't mean it's not.)
>game boils down to barrel-rolling around enemies waiting for 0.1s window of attack
That's what the series evolved to become, because of 'le difficulty' meme. But isn't what it was originally, in Demon's Souls an Dark Souls 1.
The roll-dodging mechanic is a perfectly reasonable defense ability and has been in successful action games since the 80s. Pic related.

Note that the 'Dark Souls is hard Prepare to Die' meme arose in part due to the number of coddled 6th gen babies who grew up playing collectathons, 3D Zeldas, cinematic QTEs and RPGs who were tricked into playing a real action game for the first time.

>>3868121
20k hours of pvp? speedrunning? I don't think I have 20k across all of the mmos I've played god damn

>>3868121
Seeing this number stunlocked me. Surely after so long you dont need to even play the game. Every frame must be burnt deep into your mind.

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>>3869801
Yeah,all of that and even more, probably did everything possible and any type of challenge run
>>3869873
I play it in my head when im awake, also dream about it while sleeping lol

>>3869777
>But isn't what it was originally, in Demon's Souls an Dark Souls 1.
I recently got around to play the Demon's Souls remake. I liked it a lot. But man was it a real wake up call remembering how effective armor and shields used to be before it became roles souls

>>3869777
>That's what the series evolved to become, because of 'le difficulty' meme. But isn't what it was originally, in Demon's Souls an Dark Souls 1.
It's undeniable that difficulty is an integral part of Souls' design, and seems like it had to evolve with the skill of their fanbase

"rollslop" began when players themselves decided that rolling is "optimal", took off their armor and started running around naked.

>>3870144
>"rollslop" began when players themselves decided that rolling is "optimal"
The developers didn't have to respond to it the way they did.

The fact is that roll-dodging IS the optimal strategy in most cases (along with parrying where applicable). It's usually the fastest and most reliable way to win, but also the most challenging and highest-risk. Players didn't "decide" that, they discovered it. "Turtling" gradually became viewed as the easier, novice method of playing (even though DeS and DkS shield-based strategies are balanced with plenty of drawbacks and aren't trivial to employ) and Poise-tanking became viewed as cheese (which it kind of is, but only in its most extreme forms which most players never bother to attempt).

The REAL thing that started "rollslop" was the massive success and popularity of the Dark Souls DLC. Players loved the DLC and particularly the three bosses: Artorias, Kalameet, and Manus. These bosses really forced the player to learn the moveset, spot the tells and have good reflexes. There were no cheese strategies. In the context of the original Dark Souls, these bosses were great. After the wide variety of boss types with unique arenas and environmental gimmicks, from Taurus Demon's bridge to the pillars on Anor Londo's great hall for O&S, a few straight-up "hard moveset" fights in flat, empty arenas was a welcome challenge.

After that, the emphasis flipped. Instead of the DLC-style Artorias fights being the bonus challenge, they became the norm, with mechanics adjusting to suit that change in focus.

>>3870237
>The REAL thing that started "rollslop" was the massive success and popularity of the Dark Souls DLC.
>These bosses really forced the player to learn the moveset, spot the tells and have good reflexes. There were no cheese strategies.
They're easy with a shield

>>3870237
>After that, the emphasis flipped. Instead of the DLC-style Artorias fights being the bonus challenge, they became the norm
Have you played Dark Souls 2?

>>3869337
>Dark Souls is NOT a game primarily oriented around tactical decision-making. There are some tactics involved, but the game is primarily oriented around reflexes and hand-eye coordination. You learn the timings of your weapon's moveset and roll speed of your armor level. You learn the timing of the enemy movesets and figure out the vulnerabilities
I play souls games essentially like role playing games. I don't "git gud", I don't memorize attack patterns (beyond the most obvious ones), I explore everything, I level up, I get stronger, I get as much HP as I can, I abuse mechanics that give me an advantage, I tank hits to the face and slam the big monster with my giant sword until it dies, I find different gear and try to abuse different mechanics when I find a monster that's resistant to what I'm currently doing
to me, it's clearly an rpg

>>3870241
>Have you played Dark Souls 2?
No I skipped 2, it was an obvious B-team game and looked mediocre. The through line from 1-3 can be seen as I described.

>>3870246
>No I skipped 2, it was an obvious B-team game and looked mediocre. The through line from 1-3 can be seen as I described.
Ok. Sorry, but you're ignorant and incorrect.

>>3870244
You're just ignoring the critical elements of the design and pretending they don't exist. I guarantee you don't poise-tank every single boss every time you play. All you are doing with all your "I spend time grinding and using the least-twitchy tactics available" is moving down the difficulty slider.
In classic Mega Man you can make judicious use of the right boss weapons to make levels and other bosses a lot easier. It's not an RPG because of that.

>>3870249
You have not refuted the original and frankly quite obviously correct point.
I assert DkS2 doesn't count because it was made by a different team and all you can do in response cry like a baby and call me names.

>>3870254
You are ignorant and incorrect.

>>3870255
I haven’t played any of these games, but to the onlooker, you’re really presenting some piss-poor (I.e. non-existent) arguments to prove him wrong.

>>3870256
>I haven’t played
At least you're upfront about your ignorance

Be careful about throwing out any statements though. You may have read /v/ and seen a youtube video or two, but still

>>3870255
You are unable to explain why I'm not correct.
You are a failure.
You disguised your last "argument" in ad hominem, because you're too much of a lazy, insecure faggot to make a real point and defend it.
I extracted the kernel of a point from the ad hominem anyway, and clarified the original point in response, explaining that I do not count DkS2 because it was not made by the original team. I could elaborate more, and explain more how DkS2 fits into the analysis, but why should I bother? Instead of responding with a real counter-argument, you have just reverted to lazy, empty insults, confirming that your stupidity and ignorance.

>>3870301
>I could elaborate more, and explain more how DkS2 fits into the analysis
The game you haven't played? Please do elaborate.

>>3867728
you don't have the right, O you don't have the right
furthermore, you don't have the right, O you don't have the right

>>3870317
>The game you haven't played? Please do elaborate.
Not until you demonstrate comprehension of the arguments I've actually made, which I'm sure other readers understand just fine and do not need further elaboration.
I'm not here to dance for bad faith trolls too stupid to follow a simple point.

>>3867685
>rpg
roll slop is not rpg