Women branching out from the Art department in game studios is why we can't have RPG's like these anymore.
>>3872350It's a little more nuanced than that, but this is 4chan and you're a retard so yeah sure it is buddy.
>>3872350Every single game in this image was made by literal cucks and faggots.
>>3872350Based. Women are easily offended, just like the two posts above mine.
>>3872350the classic studios had women but they were autistic with tomboyish tendencies which is why they made great things
>>3872350I don't think women have anything to do with. The higher the budget, the riskier the project becomes. As a result publisher wants to see less and less controversial points whatever they may be. It's how you get these horrific bland modern games.
>>3872350Uh, is it a coincidence that Tim Cain was at least in proximity to all of these games?
>>3872350You're supremely retarded if you think this has anything to do with it.Most game studios are run by white dudes or dudes in general, including in director or lead positions. A female producer or environment artist has effecitvely zero say in this shit.To top it off, this is confirmation bias and ignorance at its finest.
>>3872630Uh, yes, I'm pretty sure it is, considering he's a literal gayman.
>>3872350Both franchises were made by californians.
>>3872350The real reason is that kids don't want to play with your toys, grandpa.
>>3872685I fucking wish that was true, but they keep dredging up and """improving""" all the good old franchises with horrific sequels and remakes instead of making their own games.
>>3872350>female gnomes not even playable. Arcanum was wokeslop
>>3872350The best writer in ffxiv was a perverse woman - the worst is a faggy theater kid. Women aren’t the issue. Faggots are.
>>3872653*used to be.
>>3872966Do you want me to explain to you why you're retarded again?Can you carefully explain to me how some female prop artist making rocks or a producer taking notes and booking meetings has any actual impact without you sounding like the schizo you are.
>>3872481lolthis slut's on her period
>>3872967This isn't 2005, boomer. Women are lead writers, directors, and executives. 80% of the dudes that work in the game industry aren't even white lmao. It's like you're stuck in a time capsule.
>>3872966In director, lead, senior or principal postions all of them are male except for 3 of them.>1 senior narrative designer (with a principal, director and original author above her. with narrative designers more focusing on dialogue trees and such, less so actual writing)>2 senior programmersYes anon, you totally proved how game dev isn't massively male dominated anymore. Especially in higher senior, lead and director positions of relevance.
>>3872974Dear retard, see >>3872977
>>3872966Troika wasn't an overly large company but I'm reasonably sure Bloodlines was developed by more than 10 people
>>3872977That's still way too many women. When a single woman enters a room, the entire dynamic changes. Just read about how Lionhead studios got raped by feminist HR policing the workplace for offensive jokes. Or read any articles about "bro culture" (Bioware, Rockstar, Riot Games, Activision Blizzard, Deck Nine Games, etc). They get offended by everything.
>>3872981Whatever you say, delusional and ignorant schizo. Even if you use your braindead logic it applies to Bloodlines 1 here >>3872966 .
>>3872985It applies everywhere. Nasty bull dykes ruin companies. They hire each other and create pointless rules in order to act like mommies. As always, women ruin everything.
>>3872350It's not just women.
Imagine trying to use VTM:B having a "Slut" background as some sort of culture war brainrot talking point when it also had (all the way back in the early 2000's) an option to have a gay character.
>>3873089>VTM:B having a "Slut" backgroundWas that even in the original game, or added by mods?
>>3872977This is very transphobic of you Alex is a strong independent jewish woman stop misgendering her.
>>3873089Nobody cares if you *add* options to a game in a non-forced manner that is also lore-appropriate for the setting. We care about 'offensive' or 'edgy' components being *taken away* and then replaced with poorly fleshed-out wokeslop for the sake of it, usually in defiance of pre-existing lore or without blending in properly.>>3873175https://vtmb.fandom.com/wiki/Character_Sheet#Slut
>>3873207>Some patches/mods will change the list of histories on offerHence the question. The last time I played vtmb was retail when it came out
>>3872977Thank you for your service, sister.
>>3873209I watched some streamers playing it recently and the background was always there. So if it's a patch, it's an official one that now comes with every copy of the game.
Remember, Obsidian appointing a literal blue-haired feminist as the game director of their most promising 'Skyrim-killer' title alongside leading role in other recent projects, together with other Bluesky karens, has absolutely NOTHING to do with the change of tone in the company's design of female characters compared to the time when it still staffed mainly by neckbeards. Nothing at all.If you believe otherwise, you should touch grass.
>no you see there are tons of women now all of these game studios making all of these woke decisions ruining my hekkin great games>w-what's that? there aren't actually? w-well even a single woman working as an office manager has huge impact of the game and making it woke anyway!>w-what? you say old studios i praise had this as well? u-um, well... you're just stupid and woke!mega kek
>>3873213You're comparing post apoc setting, cherrypicking raiders and whores to farmers and soldiers in non-post apoc settings. I can tell you're very intelligent and rational. Totally not biased.Now what was your point again? That this makes games super woke and icky? Triggering special thin skinned snowflakes like you?
>>3873213Carrie has worked at Obsidian for 10 years and took over a game stuck in limbo. A game that was not once deemed or called a Skyrim killer. What was the problem with this? She had blue hair and was a woman.
>>3873218https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/Fallout_2_developersHilarious, actual *zero* women except for like 1 in the Art Team, topkek. Even Art is almost entirely male.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire:_The_Masquerade_%E2%80%93_BloodlinesZero female designers, zero female writers.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcanum:_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_ObscuraOnce again zero female designers, zero female writers.But sure it was just the same as today when 30% of developers are female. Nice try, but the whiteknight must walk away empty-handed on this day.
>>3873221>3 different settings>attacks only onecherrpicking indeed
>>3873221She's not a raider, femanon. She's a Khan. The raiders have slutty armor too though. And KOTOR 1 and 2 + Neverwinter Nights 2 are not 'post-apocalyptic', I'm afraid. Why does the Star Wars franchise which originates from a PG-13 movies that are extremely popular among kids have prostitutes, brothels, and sexy women while Outer Worlds, which is supposed to be a hyper-capitalist dystopia of seedy, sleazy objectifying dirtbags have none?Why is every woman in the tropical paradise of Avowed dressed like she's in Victorian England during Winter? Now go make me a sandwich.
>>3873222>What was the problem with this?Here are the problems:1.Why are there so many homos in the Living Land? Everywhere I go I'm always finding a note or listening to a conversation by some homosexual at a disproportionate rate. Is the Dreamscourge turning them all gay or something?2.Why is there a side-quest about opposing laws against abortion and both your companion and the game throw shade at you for insisting on picking anti-abortion stance which you can only take under the pretext of being a legalistic bootlicker?3.Why does every single conversation feel like you're talking to HR and completely lacks the 'bite' of POE dialogue?4. Why does every single female outfit look like it was taken out of Victorian England in a tropical landscape?
>>3873224Ohnononono, redditbros... our response?
>>3873224Beyond just your point being an irrational "i hate women and women ruin everything i like" spergout, what actually s your point? What specifically do you think happens if there is a junior female producer or junior female level designer on the team?Be mindful, I have very little patience for irrational, biased and mentally immature people. But I am open to being proven wrong if your logic is sound and you don't come across as an irrational and ignorant person.
>>3873224Take a long hard look at >>3872977 then tell me what you think that designer and 2 programmers did that was so horrific compared to all those other dudes that ruined Bloodlines 2. You really gonna lay the blame on these 3 women here?
>>3873236>what actually s your point?That I hate women and women ruin everything I like.>if there is a juniorYou've been literally proven wrong about your minimization attempts in this very thread, with even more examples of women ( or troon wannabe women ) at the top of the food chain in other flops, and you're still going at it? When only junior positions are occupied, even then there will be at least several of them that are occupied by women.>That specifically do you think happens >>3873213Please refer to the chart. And if you need dialogue vibes examples, refer to OP.>Be mindful, I have very little patience for irrational, biased and mentally immature people.Dilate.
>>3873227>Why does the Star Wars franchise which originates from a PG-13 movies that are extremely popular among kids have prostitutes, brothels, and sexy women while Outer Worlds, which is supposed to be a hyper-capitalist dystopia of seedy, sleazy objectifying dirtbags have none?Because the different settings and games feature different areas and factions? Outer worlds 2 has 3 primary factions. The Order of well wishing math nerds but are ultimately inedpt and tunnelvisioned. Super communists that brainwashes the people with propaganda, drugs and psychological manipulation. Super capitalists (like a Best Buy or something) focused on making products people buy and forming a mindset of climbing the corporate ladder.Which of these factions would have all of these whores you desperately want to see to validate yourself? Does your local Best Buy have many whores for you to purchase on the shelves?
>>3873243>You've been literally proven wrongHow about you stop with goalpost moving and deflection and answer the question. You didn't prove me wrong and you didn't answer the very simple question just now.I want you be crystal clear with cold hard facts or rock solid logic to explain to me what exactly happens to utterly ruin a game that has like 1 female junior programmer on staff in a team of +100.We both know you can't and wont answer this, because it would make whatever point you think you have fall apart. Go on, prove it in your next post. Prove you can't answer this and will just deflect.
>>3873243Post 50 games you like. Then look over the credits for all of those games. If even a single woman was on staff, you now have to admit that game is shit, never play it again and call those games woke.
>>3873244You know most of those screenshots are from Outerworlds 1, right? Where planets were mostly divided between hard-ass outlaws and ruthless exploitative capitalists. You know the setting also has bars and hotels which have nothing to do with Best Buy, right? Yet for some reason none of those towns and cities in all of those planets have any sexual services for sale, especially for rugged men on a frontier sector, and also every woman has to be flat, ugly, and covered from head to toe always for... reasons. I won't even talk about how they all turned mixed race which some other games probably would, because that one at least makes sense in futuristic space.Yet the Star Wars planets are totally more 'logical' for brothels, prostitution and attire with sex appeal.... for some reason.
>>38732471. Sarah Longthorne actually *did* dabble extensively in writing, because according to her LinkedIn page, she played an instrumental role in 'bringing a lot of main characters to life', including Lou Graham and Safia ( two of the women ) and Benny Mulhoon. So no, they aren't just focused on 'dialogue trees'. Bonus points: Of course she had to participate in a DEI convention in her past about womanizing video games too - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgFPRISyCPI2. You decided to cherrypick VTMB2 specifically despite it having the least connection to the topic of the thread, because out of dozens of game which caught flack for being *woke* narratively and aesthetically, VTMB2 was never really criticized too much for that too aspect, its biggest problem was butchering the original's mechanics. Still it also lost much of the orginal's edge and political incorrectness thanks to corporate culture sensitivity training, which leads us to..3. What happens when you have a bunch of rainbow-haired activist girls and embittered gamur gurls with a chip on their shoulder who need to 'stick it' to all the 'losers' around them at any opportunity, no matter in which department they are, and especially when they have dominion over HR and Sweet Baby Inc style consulting in major firms, is that you have to sit down for lunch with these people and make sure they're constantly happy and 'comfortable' because they represent the company's 'diversity' for the 'modern audience'. And you can't do that by being the 'creep' who keeps pushing for 'objectifying' or 'weird' and toxic elements in the video game, so every simp ( Like yourself ) bends the knee and toes the party line, resulting in games that have pretty much all 'controversial' aspects related to gender or sexuality erased from them until they resemble the Teletubbies.
>>3872653Based Josh "Hold her tighter, she's a fighter" Sawyer.
>>3872653>Not involved in any major game after POE 2 Deadfire and New Vegas ( Besides Pentiment )Just making my point for me.
>muh women ruing gamesThe Bloody Baron questline from Witcher 3 was designed and written by a woman. This is widely regarded as one of the best questlines in the game and involves a cheating wife that is heavily to blame for ruining the Baron's relationship and did an abortion through children eating witche's magic that turned the aborted baby into a monster.
>>3873445>lol fun game bitIt wasn't meant to be.
>>3873445Never played that game. Is it any good?
>>3873445She's a Slavic/Polish woman, that's different. They're still under the yoke of patriarchal conservative popular culture there. Well, less and less by the year perhaps but still infinitely more than Western women.
>>3873516Exactly.
>>3872350legacy of kain was written by a woman
>>3873229Disproportionate? In the real world they're like 20% of the population, depending on where you define the cutoff between what's bisexual and what's just "experimenting". Literally.If you're talking about Avowed, I haven't played the game. Deadfire only had like three characters that were canonically not-heterosexual. Serafen, Tekehu and Aloth I think? Maybe Rekke, but he doesn't have many lines. And I don't know of any others in the game (though I didn't play much with the other companions). In a game where there's like hundreds of NPCs, that's not much. Companions get screen time I guess? But just from a demographics perspective, that's a severe underrepresentation.If you roll 1d6 a few hundred times, keep track of how many times it lands on 1, make a note of it, make a big deal about it every time it happens. Suddenly it seems like it's happening all the fucking time... because you never made a big deal about it before.
>>3873243So you admit you're homosexual? Well that was easy. Just go be with nothing but dudes, it's easy. There's a male loneliness epidemic going on, you know. I'm sure there's lots of lonely gay boys who will play games with you. You might have to work on improving your social skills, hygiene and general negativity though.
>>3873298Isn't he retired? He's been involved in making some of the most influential video games of all time for like twenty years. He's doing ok.
>>3873563Calm down, sugartits.
>>3873566Yeah he is, and he has. That's why all the new Obsidian dialogues are nuspeak trash now that the actual mythological white male writer finally left and all narrative decisions have been outsources to the sensitivity and inclusivity experts.
>>3873586But... but you are an incel, anon? You told us you hate all women and that they ruin everything. You literally said that.And no one said that women can't be at fault for anything at all. But that's not what you actually said. So when you panic and try to construct a straw man like that, you're showing a lot more about yourself than you think.Namely, you proved that you are an incel, you're just embarrassed about it because you're now aware that it's not a good thing. So you're on your path to healing and growing, you're just taking your time.
>>3873589Is it that time of the month again?
>>3873592I accept your concession.
>>3873213Is that a skinwalker before the barrels?
>>3873560>like 20% of the populationAre you saying that there 200+ mil gay Pajeets, 20+ mil gay Goyhaters and 200+ mil gay Negroes?
>>3873445It was a fantastic story, one of the best in all video games
The problem is America produces way more graduates than it has white collar jobs. So you are some fat midwit who wants to write prestige tv plots, but you aren’t a cohen or whatever so you can’t do it. Instead you get a job at a video game publisher despite neither playing or enjoying video games, and your favorite hobby is reading gay fiction on a03. So you write as much gay fan fiction as possible into your plot, and now you get the state of RPGs 2010-2023, henceforth known as the Dark Ages of Faggotry. Exp33 showed you can be really successful if you don’t add gay fanfiction to your story, which other studios will now emulate.
>>3873761Anon, you had a literal gay dude working on Fallout, Arcanum and Bloodlines.
>>3873620The fraction includes more than just homosexuals. It includes everyone who isn't heterosexual (and although it's a robust result in sociology, there's still some debate about whether the definition is a bit too strict, but it remains the definition in order to preserve the reliability of the data over time... because the full truth is that there is no cutoff: the gradient just smoothly fades between the two extremes; or in other words, sexual orientation is now understood to be descriptive, rather than prescriptive - and so cultural factors can come into play that influence how likely individuals are deviate from the norms / expectations of their culture, including admitting to researchers that they feel attractions for the same sex and things like that).
>>3873469Not really. It's repetitive, has extreme balance issues, zero character customization, and is overburdened by all kinds of wacky toxic gender shit.
>>3873798Just think how much better they would be without the initial dose of HIV, that became full blown AIDS in the 2010s.
>>3873798Oh so that’s where the bugchaser quest downtown came from, was wondering why that was such a banger
>>3873761I remember that from the Hamburger Helper (can't remember her real name) interviews around the Dragon Age release. She quite openly and happily said that she hated videogames and really wanted to do writing for something else.But that just makes me wonder why you would even hire those people. It's a problem with videogames as a business. Some investor hires coders then hires separate writers, and just hires them from the regular writing pool.Games by devs who do their own writing are almost universally better, since they're working on the game.
>>3873826>I remember that from the Hamburger HelperPeople hated on her because she was fat and ugly, without even realizing she wrote some of the best stuff in the games she worked on. Like the Dwarf origins in Dragon Age, Orzammar, Deep Roads, etc.A lot of anons hate on women in game dev without realizing they could have worked on stuff they liked or even thought was the best stuff in the game.
>>3873826Jennifer Hepler
>>3873837The usual gamer chimp out.Dragon Age 2 sucked + writer said she wants a fast forward button for combats = GET 'EM!!!!Ironic that "Skip the Fade" mod is one of the most downloaded for Dragon Age Origins
>>3872653Years later this same guy removed a romantic stalker from Deadfire because a woman on the team complained.
>>3873849Good job completely missing the point he was making there, having no idea how game dev works or what focused good writing is.
>>3873848> Ironic that "Skip the Fade" mod is one of the most downloaded for Dragon Age OriginsThe only people who still play BioWare games are at least 12 months deep in HRT
>>3873877Didn't miss it at all.>Most game studios are run by white dudes or dudes in general, including in director or lead positions. A female producer or environment artist has effecitvely zero say in this shit.Sawyer's own later anecdote refutes this. He changed a game's content because a woman on the team had a problem with it. They all do this because they're all good feminist allies.
>>3873919Didn't miss the point? Ok, prove it. What exactly was his point? I can even give you a hint, it's entirely dev and writing focused. You have 1 chance.
>>3873986It's already there in the green text and he was wrong. Women do have a say and the male leads accommodate them and talk about how great it is that they do it. We've moved beyond "it's not happening" to "it's happening and it's a good thing."
>>3873445>>3873516It's almost like the problem isn't WOMEN, the problem is talentless hacktivists eventually having to actually do the work they were hired to do, instead of tonguing the balls & anus of basedboy male feminist studio heads in the company bathrooms.
>>3874013Better luck next time.
Fags trying to throw women under the bus after they implode several studios is pretty typical behavior from these lisping psychopaths.
>>3872653Despite what the troons on the Codex say, Josh is a very smart writer. Shame he doesnt work on more recent projects, loved his imputs on Van Buren while reading the design doc and his thoughts on how real life history impacted his worldbuilding writing style.
>>3874013Let me explain bog standard game design and writing rules, since you're clearly ignorant on the subject.>good design/writing is about focus, "hacking away at the unessential" to quote bruce lee. if something doesn't add to the specific intent of the design, it should be cut. otherwise it detracts and muddies the water>if it doesn't benefit the design/writing that's reason enough to be cut, but if it could pontentially further detract from the focus by drawing attention to it even more so. if this thing could annoy some people, that's just another reason.>it adds nothing and only detracts, plus is easy to cut>logical conclusion is to cut it.That is what Sawyer is talking about. This kind of stuff happens with EVERYTHING when it comes to writing and design. It's part of the iteration process and development. This same thing is why features, characters or whatever are also cut. It's a fundamental and constant part of game development.Your ignorance and heavy bias instead sends your mind racing towards some juvenile anti-woke train of thought. When what he's talking about is bog standard stuff even a junior game designer or writer knows about.
>>3874013>>3874516Oh and case in point >>3872653 here rape was included because it made sense for the characters, setting and added to the depravity of what they were going for. Despite being a potential trauma trigger.Things should be done with a purpose. Otherwise you're just some hack writer trying to go for some cheap shock value with no meaning behind it.
more women play video games now than in the past. more gamers trooned out more than in the past. too many troons women and trolls are getting focus grouped for vidya now. my soggy knees probably nets you a worse esrb rating now than in the past.
>>3874517>Counterpoint so effective it killed the thread
>>3872622>As a result publisher wants to see less and less controversial pointsthey literally throw trannyslords in your face if not furrysex now. how is that LESS?!?!
>>3872966the game devs got trannycored. that's the problem.
>>3877498That’s not controversial. The science is settled.
>>3873221>>3873222“There was an earlier vision of her character as someone who was a little bit awkward and creepy, Which made her romance quest withSebastian read kind of oddly. You know, the original,i think idea was that she really wantedto get a date with this guy, and Sebastian was very normal. And Celia would not-- Basically like she wouldn't give him his license to sell stuff until he went out on a date, but reading that in the MeToo era, it was like, ooh.Let's try something different. Like, what if she's just very businesslike but then smitten with this guy, and this guy is just totally oblivious. And then, you know, nobody's creepy. You can still have fun with it.”When you have male RPG writers you get Gnomish raps dungeons and bandit rapist being justified to stay true and authentic to human nature and the setting. This woman can’t even have the evil Corporatist objectify workers for their own pleasure despite the whole point of the game being the objectification of Workers by capitalism
>>3877503>The science is settledEvery time anyone says this, it's such a brutal self-own, but they're too much of a midwit to even understand why.
>>3877769>why did they write a positive relationship in a positive way and not as an exploitative oneWith an intellect like that, why aren't you working in game development?
>>3877772You’re inserting your own head-canon as why they changed it when she directly said it was because of the “metoo era” not due to narrative concerns
>>3877781Yes, because it's meant to be a positive relationship. Are you autistic or just retarded? Do I need to use smaller words?
>>3877771yes the trannylords are mentally ill and they now work for game devs. that is the "science" proven.
>>3874516He cut it because a woman complained, period. If a woman wasn't there to complain about how it gave her the ick, they wouldn't have had to rewrite that dialogue.>>3874517>Oh and case in point >>3872653 here rape was included because it made sense for the characters, setting and added to the depravity of what they were going for. Despite being a potential trauma trigger.Being a disturbed stalker doesn't make sense for a literal pirate?
>>3874517>Otherwise you're just some hack writer trying to go for some cheap shock value with no meaning behind it.By the way, this is exactly what Chris Avellone thought of Sawyer's Cook Cook but Avellone was just another male feminist so Sawyer told him to fuck off. Chris should have been a woman, then he would have listened.
>>3878177> A male femenologist > Fired by Quuuuueens at his company
>>3873213>>3873210This is how I know "art" and "creativity" is a goddess thing, guys. >>3873213That's depressing.
>>3878176You do realize you didn't disprove anything, right? You didn't undertand anything even when it was explained to you and chose instead to plug your ears.When someone plugs their ears only so they can stick to their own existing narrow-minded idea to keep blaming someone or something, they are not mentally mature.You want to keep blaming absolutely everything on women and "feminists", yet completely ignore everything disproving you. When a woman writes something good that you like or dark stuff? Let's ignore that. It was probably some based white man that told her exactly what to write.It's actually a tad depressing that there exist such stupid irrational close-minded people like you. Well whatever, it's not my problem.
>>3878216Man, you faggots are insufferable and I hope you all get replaced by AI.
>>3878216Entertainment was better when annoying women who complained about everything were gatekept out and chill ones were allowed in. Too bad that even some of the chill ones flipped a switch and became the other kind when the cultural revolution happened.
>>3873849This anon proved their point.>>3874516This anon wishes Sawyer said X, but unfortunately Sawyer said Y, but this anon can't stand the anti-work and is going to pretend Sawyer said X.He's also going to expose the weakness of his point with feigned arrogance, because we all know that nobody here sincerely believes that artists don't edit their work. The argument that artists never edit their work wasn't even fielded in this entire thread. At best the argument posed was that women often promote edits that shit up the work.Where in your post do you preclude the possibility of a woman suggesting a poor edit and that poor edit being adopted?
>>3878334>this anon proved their pointHe didn't "prove" anything. He provided an example which could be held as supporting his point and could equally be held to not, which is why it's still being discussed.>The argument that artists never edit their work wasn't even fielded in this entire thread. At best the argument posed was that women often promote edits that shit up the work.So you agree that artists do edit their work for reasons completely unrelated to wokeness or whatever you're complaining about? Sounds like you're agreeing with the anon you quoted, not disagreeing with him.>where in your post do you preclude the possibility of a woman suggesting a poor edit and that poor edit being adopted?Is that what you think happened in this case?
>>3872350the real culprit is private equity and MBA guys but i guess we gotta bring the fact that you don't get laid into it somewhere
>>3878336>He didn't "prove" anything.Yes he did. All he had to show was that a woman can suggest an edit and that edit could be adopted. That's a proof of concept. It's a simple point, albeit, but it's valid, and he has the receipts to prove it. Meanwhile in order for your point to even attempt to get off the ground you have to shove words in Sawyer's mouth that he did not say.Different story if you could summon Sawyer here this instant to testify on your behalf, but I doubt he's going to show up to a petty little internet spat to back you.>He provided an example which could be held as supporting his point and could equally be held to not, which is why it's still being discussed.No, it can't be equally held the opposite way. The "opposite way" would be an example that a woman suggests an edit and that edit is rejected. While that's possible, and I'm sure it happens? The other anon's example is precisely not that.I think logic isn't your strong suit, and I do not mean that as an insult. It is a bit counter-intuitive at times, and I can see how you and many other people would get tangled up there.>So you agree that artists do edit their work for reasons completely unrelated to wokeness or whatever you're complaining about?Well I'm glad you asked.So the reasons why artists edit their work are manifold as the needs of the artist themselves are manifold. Can one of those reasons be to appease women? Sure. Can one of those reasons be to try and score points to perhaps worm their way into a woman's pants? Sure. Can one of those reasons be ideological solidarity? Sure.>Sounds like you're agreeing with the anon you quoted, not disagreeing with him.He's more right than wrong, but now you're dealing with me.>Is that what you think happened in this case?I, personally, don't know. Unfortunately we don't get to play the game that wasn't made, or in this case the other version of it, but it is not a stretch to believe that the game was worse for the edit.
>>3878339>Yes he did. All he had to show was that a woman can suggest an edit and that edit could be adopted.Nope. He went on to say >>He changed a game's content because a woman on the team had a problem with it. They all do this because they're all good feminist allies. >>3873919which is pure speculation and which, obviously, he was unable to demonstrate (I trust you can follow the reply chain for yourself.) The point that he was trying to make =/= the example he used to try and prove his point.>and he has the receipts to prove it. Meanwhile in order for your point to even attempt to get off the ground you have to shove words in Sawyer's mouth that he did not say.Again, no. I'm not putting any words into his mouth because I'm not arguing as to him doing it for any particular reason, I'm just pointing out that we don't have any information as to why he made the changes, which makes the original speculation unfounded.>No, it can't be equally held the opposite way. The "opposite way" would be an example that a woman suggests an edit and that edit is rejected.I didn't say "the opposite way", I said it could be held to support his point or could be held to not support his point. Not supporting an argument =/= supporting that argument's opposite. I understand reasaoning might not be your strong suit but this is fairly basic stuff.>He's more right than wrong, but now you're dealing with me.So you replied to point out what you saw as the weaknesses of his point even though you agree with him? That's.... curious.>Unfortunately we don't get to play the game that wasn't made, or in this case the other version of it, but it is not a stretch to believe that the game was worse for the edit.Sure, but why do you think the game was worse? You know what the edit was and what the final form of the content in the game was. I'm not asking you to demonstrably prove it was better or worse, I'm asking for your opinion.
>>3878351>Nope.Yep. The topic of the thread isn't whether or not feminism ruins games.>He went on to say >>He changed a game's content because a woman on the team had a problem with it. They all do this because they're all good feminist allies. >>3873919which is pure speculation and which, obviously, he was unable to demonstrate (I trust you can follow the reply chain for yourself.) The point that he was trying to make =/= the example he used to try and prove his point.If all you care about is whether or not the good name of feminism is or isn't besmirched, and all you care about is that he didn't provide a receipt for feminists acting badly? Might I direct your attention to Collective Shout when they complained to payment processors to get Steam to acquiesce to taking games off their platform. Collective Shout took full credit for it.>Again, no. I'm not putting any words into his mouth because I'm not arguing as to him doing it for any particular reason, I'm just pointing out that we don't have any information as to why he made the changes, which makes the original speculation unfounded.... what? How did you manage to come to the conclusion that I was disputing that you were arguing as to what Sawyer's reasons for making the edit were? Especially when Sawyer gave us his reason in the receipt?That doesn't even make sense.No, no, no. I'm telling you that all that other anon was obligated to do was to prove the concept of women positing an edit that could then be adopted because if that? Then what would preclude a bad edit getting adopted? You're oh so concerned about this side pot of a point about whether or not feminism is to blame here, and your principle complaint is that is speculation, as if that's a meaningful defense. Even if they weren't feminists, it's still something that feminists might do anyway regardless.Why do you even care?(cont.)
>>3878351>I didn't say "the opposite way",I never said you did. I had your quote in green right there. I said the phrase without quotes, and then went on to unfurl "the opposite way." Why would I bother? Because you said his example could equally support what he was saying and what he wasn't saying, and that's just not true for the reason I gave.>I said it could be held to support his point or could be held to not support his point.Right.>Not supporting an argument =/= supporting that argument's opposite.Again, the topic of the thread isn't whether or not feminism ruins games. That argument could be made, but all anyone has to do in this thread is to show a woman suggesting an edit and that edit being adopted. That's it. That's the goalpost.>I understand reasaoning might not be your strong suit but this is fairly basic stuff.Then why are you struggling so bad with this stuff?>So you replied to point out what you saw as the weaknesses of his point even though you agree with him?No.>That's.... curious.I'd love to hear how you arrived at that twisted conclusion.>Sure, but why do you think the game was worse?Again, personally, I don't know.>You know what the edit was and what the final form of the content in the game was.So?I don't get to play the version of the game without the edit. Even if I could somehow get a version of the game without the edit, that doesn't mean it's at the same level of polish as what was released.>I'm not asking you to demonstrably prove it was better or worse, I'm asking for your opinion.And how am I supposed to opine on something I can't experience without it being a complete gut check? Or is that what you're looking for? A snapshot into my soul?
>>3878366>Because you said his example could equally support what he was saying and what he wasn't saying, and that's just not true for the reason I gave.No, I didn't, as I have explained to you. Feel free to quote where I argued that, though.Since you're now so desperate to dissemble that you're now quoting and responding to each of my sentences individually I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your deflection until you can prove yourself capable of at least basic reading comprehension and response.
>>3878368>No, I didn't, as I have explained to you.Uh huh.>Feel free to quote where I argued that, though.What I said,>"Because you said his example could equally support what he was saying and what he wasn't saying, and that's just not true for the reason I gave."This post of yours: >>3878336.This quote:>"He provided an example which could be held as supporting his point and could equally be held to not, which is why it's still being discussed.">Since you're now so desperate to dissemble that you're now quoting and responding to each of my sentences individually I'm not going to bother responding to the rest of your deflection until you can prove yourself capable of at least basic reading comprehension and response.I don't believe you. I think you took one look at Collective Shout, saw you were done, and are now looking to save face.
>>3878369>>"Because you said his example could equally support what he was saying and what he wasn't saying"This is what you are suggesting I am saying. This is what I actually said:>>"He provided an example which could be held as supporting his point and could equally be held to not, which is why it's still being discussed."I'll go and rephrase it so you can read the implied part of the sentence so that you don't have to think for yourself:>"He provided an example which could be held as supporting his point and could be equally held to not support his point."Read this sentence very carefully. Compare it to the first sentence quoted above, which is what you think I'm saying. Do you see that they're not the same?>I think you took one look at Collective Shout, saw you were done, and are now looking to save face.I appreciate your attempt to deflect to a completely different, irrelevant argument, but what we're focused on right now is whether you can follow the extremely basic logic involved in parsing a sentence.
>>3878373Lmao, okay, I'm game.>"Because you said his example could equally support what he was saying and what he wasn't saying">"He provided an example which could be held as supporting his point and could equally be held to not, which is why it's still being discussed.">"He provided an example which could be held as supporting his point and could be equally held to not support his point."Alright we have them all bunched together.>Read this sentence very carefully.We've got all 3 right there together.>Compare it to the first sentence quoted above, which is what you think I'm saying.Okay.>Do you see that they're not the same?Different words, not meaningfully different context or meaningfully different content.Let's try a 4th one on for size, as an example:"Because you said his example could equally support what his point was and what he what his point wasn't."This little train of pedantry on your part better be entertaining.
>>3878379One of these things is not like the others!>>"He provided an example which could be held as supporting his point and could equally be held to not, which is why it's still being discussed.">>"He provided an example which could be held as supporting his point and could be equally held to not support his point."These two mean the same thing.>>"Because you said his example could equally support what he was saying and what he wasn't saying"This one doesn't, because again, saying that X doesn't support his point is not the same as saying that X supports the opposite of his point. In fact, it makes no statement about the opposite at all.>"Because you said his example could equally support what his point was and what he what his point wasn't."Except I never said this, so now you're just resorting to making up what you thought I said so that you don't have to admit you don't have an argument.And I'm glad to see you're seething so hard you're having to resort to posting reaction images to try and make it seem like you haven't lost the argument, kek
>>3878382>One of these things is not like the others!Okay, go on.>These two mean the same thing.>This one doesn't-Oh ffs.>- because again, saying that X doesn't support his point is not the same as saying that X supports the opposite of his point. In fact, it makes no statement about the opposite at all.One of these things is not like the others!One of these things is not like the others!One of these things is not like the others!You're missing the word, "equally.">Except I never said this-I never said you did. I literally typed the sentence, "Let's try a 4th one on for size, as an example," prior. The only one here trying to pull one over on someone is you on me, and it didn't work.>- so now you're just resorting to making up what you thought I said so that you don't have to admit you don't have an argument.So now that we've come to the end of this pedantic tangent in which we've discovered the inability to parse a sentence is on your part. Congratulations, you played yourself.>And I'm glad to see you're seething so hard you're having to resort to posting reaction images to try and make it seem like you haven't lost the argument, kekHave another for the road. Speaking of which, I'm hitting it. I played your little game, won, and since you didn't want to reply to the rest of my stuff, I'm just going to assume you didn't have an argument for it.Buh-bye!
>>3878386>incapable of understanding basic logic when it's been explained to you multiple times>compelled to keep replying instead of just admitting you were wrong>has to resort to posting smug reaction images in the hopes that the two other people who visit this thread might assume you won the argumentKEKBetter luck next time, you retarded faggot
>example of sawyer adding rape because it made sense and added to what they were going for>example of sawyer choosing to remove something that didn't make sense and only detracted from what they were going forHow do some weirdos interpret this?>reeee they only changed this because a woman said it was bad so that means they always do it, i can't prove any of what i'm saying or disprove basic design and writing rules of thumbAnd there are multipel cases even in this thread of women writing something more dark or things they like?>uuuuh, that doesn't countAll so they can keep universally blaming women for everything bad.Here's a little spoiler for you both men and women are capable of writing trash or something good and constantly do. But clearly this is too radical of an idea for some of you to handle quite yet.
>>3878393>>example of sawyer choosing to remove something that didn't make sense and only detracted from what they were going forYou're saying it doesn't make sense for a pirate to behave inappropriately towards women and that it somehow "detracts" from the story to include that kind of behavior? Their pirate faction is now this Simpsons joke.>reeee they only changed this because a woman said it was bad so that means they always do it, i can't prove any of what i'm saying or disprove basic design and writing rules of thumbThat's what happened. Chris Avellone complained about the rapists in New Vegas was told to shut up and go back to his shed. Kristen Garsten complained about a character making her feel unsafe and they bent over backwards to accommodate her.
>>3878511It was changed because it didn't make sense in this particular case, not as some blanket rule. It's not that hard to understand.>you're saying it doesn't make sense for a pirate to behave inappropriately towards women and that it somehow "detracts" from the story to include that kind of behavior? So what you're arguing is that all the pirates should behave inappropriately towards women, all the time, in every interaction you see in the game?
>>3878663How does it not make sense? This is Benweth.>A veteran of the Dyrwoodan navy, Benweth is known for his brutality and aggression, earning him the moniker "Brutal Ben". He's the second in command of Aeldys' faction of the Príncipi, on account of him serving under her command at a Dyrwoodan man-of-war. However, this loyalty is stretched thin by his constant antics, like attacking The Defiant in the eye of a cyclone. He's currently at Deadlight, keeping watch on it for Aeldys.>So what you're arguing is that all the pirates should behave inappropriately towards women, all the time, in every interaction you see in the game?That would be one-note.
>>3878694>how does it not make sense?Because they're intended to have a (mostly) positive relationship, regardless of them being pirates. It doesn't make sense for the characters.>that would be one-note.I agree. So you accept that not every interaction in the game should be like that, but you're upset at this specific change because... why, exactly?
>>3878177nta but I thought Avellone was going through his metooing around the time of this screenshotted post and that might explain some of his defensiveness.
>>3878511Changing a few lines of dialogue is hardly "bending over backwards"
>>3872653Not only are you a liar, you're also a fag Sawyer fanboy.
>>3878511>You're saying it doesn't make sense for a pirateYou don't even know the characters names, what their potential relationship is (if any) and what the point of their interactions are. You saw an image, got triggered by it by inserting your own confirmation bias and has argued about something you know nothing about for half a thread.
>>3878694>>A veteran of the Dyrwoodan navy, Benweth is known for his brutality and aggression, earning him the moniker "Brutal Ben". He's the second in command of Aeldys' faction of the Príncipi, on account of him serving under her command at a Dyrwoodan man-of-war. However, this loyalty is stretched thin by his constant antics, like attacking The Defiant in the eye of a cyclone. He's currently at Deadlight, keeping watch on it for Aeldys.How does any of that tie into him stalking an ex? It has nothing to do with brutality and aggression. If anything, him being a forceful rapist would make infinitely more sense if you wanted him to be a sex pest too for some reason.The point of Benweth is to>attack and shipwreck the protag for the "tutorial" section, like irenicus dungeon in bg2>be a follow-up quest objective to start working for the pirate faction and for the player to get revenge onThat's it. How would trying to shoehorn in some stalker plot of an ex fit into any of this or his aggression and brutality? When your leads and director ask you these questions, how exactly are you planning on convincing them that stalking an ex is not only really fitting and fits into the purpose of the character, but is really important to have?
love the austistic sperging in here, keep it up boys
>>3878853>herethis entire board consists of people getting triggered by something and arguing with others telling them how retarded they are
>>3878885>>hereMore like this entire website, retardothis post is a joke
>>3878710>Because they're intended to have a (mostly) positive relationship,Benweth and Aedlys? No. He's a slimeball trying to undermine her.>So you accept that not every interaction in the game should be like that, but you're upset at this specific change because... why, exactly?"Feedback Being stalked by a jilted ex is a little too close to home for some people."The specific reason he gave for changing it is because Katrina Garsten cried about how it made her feel unsafe.>>3878827I finished Deadfire, I'm getting the impression you haven't.>>3878830Guess we'll never know because they changed the character's concept. They edited the design doc and rewrote a dozen lines of dialogue.
>>3879090>Guess we'll never knowIt was a detail specifically changed that doesn't align with anything else about the character or their purpose.And everything is iterated and changed during development many times, from writing to design.Point being your schizo idea of>it was only changed and made more woke because a damn woman complained!!!are just ignorant asspulled delusions.You literally gave up trying to justify why Benweth should be a stalker. In other words there is no reason for him to be that, it doesn't fit in with the rest of his character and would only detract.At the end of the day it's only a cherrypicked nitpick surrounded by confirmation bias as a hail mary attempt to prove that having women involved in development leads to worse or more"""woke""" games. Even when that is factually wrong and absolutely delusional. Tons of women have worked on games you've enjoyed in various roles and you're not even aware of it. But you're so delusional you would probably think "well if the dev team had no women tha games would be even better!".This is straight up mental illness.
>>3878511>>>/co/fag pls>>3878218most of the b8 threads are probably AI bots.
>>3878718> Changing a few lines of dialogue is hardly "bending over backwards"Beings of that persuasion are never satisfied with satisfaction itself.Again... Give them an inch...
>>3878718> Changing a few lines of dialogue is hardly...>>3873849...I assume you are one of those guys who think changing a character's sex doesn't make a lick of difference for self-respecting writers.
>>3879090>Benweth and Aelfys? No. He's a slimeball trying to undermine her.He's her protege and the second-in-command of her faction of the Principi. Yes, there's some friction there (which is why I said 'mostly' positive) but they cleary care for each other. Aeldys will even tell you that she understands why you killed him and that he largely brought it upon himself, but that she's still going to hold it against you because she liked him.>I finished Deadfire, I'm getting the impression you haven't.Which is why you're relying on wiki summaries for your information and not mentioning anything in the actual game, I'm sure.
>>3879097>Tons of women have worked on games you've enjoyed in various rolesYou mean like in here >>3873224?
>>3879381You only enjoy three games out of all the ones ever made?
>>3879385I've randomly thought about another game that I liked, Mass Effect, and what do you know..Sorry Anonette, but it's pretty clear the DEI initiatives artificially inflating female developers to 30% in the past 10 years or so has contributed absolutely nothing except walking on eggshells, wokeness and trigger warnings to the industry.
>>3879413That's it? Four games? Out of the thousands ever released, you only enjoy four (4) games?Ohnononono, is that... women? Working on a game I enjoyed? AIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII SAVE ME NIGGERMAN>Mass EffectJust a worse version of KotOR with technobabble instead of the Force, by the way, and had such rushed production and writing that they immediately fumbled the next two games - even Karpyshyn admits he had no idea how he was going to pull off the rest of the plot and Casey Hudson has the distinguishment of being able to say he killed Bioware twice.
>>3878338shhhhhhh let all the incels have their fantasy about being oppressed
>>3879424Dear Whiteknight/Felicia.... did you seriously just post this image with that filename and thought you were cooking while underlining names of female VO workers, 1 audio programmer and a male editor for some unknown reasons?In a thread about overarching game narrative and design?P.S - I like KOTOR too, it was made by roughly the same men and not a single woman in any high-level position.
>>3879508You don't think voice direction is an important role for a game that has full voice acting? It's an extremely important and almost entirely unappreciated position, and one you probably had no idea existed, just like the anon you were originally responding to pointed out.>and a male editor for some unknown reasons>male editorNope, but nice try! Cookie Everman is, in fact, a woman (her husband Dusty was Lead Technical Designer).>In a thread about overarching game narrative and design.The thread is about them "brancing out from the art department" and the post you were responding to specifically said "various roles", so I'd say it counts.>P.S - I like KOTOR too, it was made by roughly the same men and not a single woman in any high-level position.I notice you're already moving the goalposts to only women in "high-level positions", whatever that means, but here you go - Cori May, designer, listed alongside Gaider and Kristjanson. But I'm sure you have another cope ready to deflect some more.
>>3879413How does having a female prop artist making rocks and just doing what they're told make a game shit. You never told us.You could list 50 games you've enjoyed and I can guarantee almost all of them had women somewhere on staff.You're just dumb. Men and women are both capable of producing shit or good stuff.
>>3879508>In a thread about overarching game narrative and design?There has been examples ITT about women writing and designing quality stuff. Why are you pretending this never happened. >>3873445Not only that, she wrote stuff which painted the women in a bad light and the men in a good light. But let's pretend that never happened, since that doesn't fit your narrow world view and narrative.
>>3879518>One name emphasized out of 9>BTFOOkay Felicia, we'll do what your boyfriend does and pretend you won the mock fight.>It's an extremely important and almost entirely unappreciated positionNobody cares, chuds aren't complaining about woke sound quality and accent or intonation, not here nor elsewhere. Next you'll tell me some woman designing the sparkles of a particle effect is evidence against the effect of women on wokeness. I mean, you are practically doing that already.>Nope, but nice try! Cookie Everman is, in fact, a woman (her husband Dusty was Lead Technical Designer).I'll give you that, guess the AI search assistant deceived me, which stands to reason given that I could also find no mention of their gender or even relationship in any webpage... are you a butthurt female bioware dev or protective boyfriend? Is that why you're samefagging the whole thread?>The thread is about them "brancing out from the art department" and the post you were responding to specifically said "various roles", so I'd say it counts.If you're an obtsue retard, which you are, sure.>But I'm sure you have another cope ready to deflect some more.Anon I realize by now you're extremely dense, but do you understand the difference between women having notable roles or significant presence in a game's plot, narrative, creative character design etc, which the general vision of is usually dictated to the technical teams downstream from chief writers and directors, and between having a single woman anywhere?Let's go even further and completely blow your brain out while we're at it, do you understand how an explicit atmosphere of 'female empowerment' differs from an era where CRPG's are for all intens and purposes a 'male hobby' that sometimes a woman gets allowed into?
>>3879535>How does having a female prop artist making rocks and just doing what they're told make a game shit. You never told us.>Thread: "Women branching out from the Art department in game studios is why we can't have RPG's like these anymore.">You're just dumb.Go back to Tiktok
>>3879546>claims there's not a single woman in a high-level position because you enjoyed the game>instantly proven wrongThat's your being BTFO>doesn't undertstand why voice direction is important>admits to having to use AI search because you're too dumb to look for yourself and STILL gets it wrong>resorts to seething about samefagging because you know you've lost the argumentAs I expected, an entire post of nothing but cope. I accept your concessions, you may continue to cope, seethe, etc. at your leisure
>>3879551We have had people whining when they branch out.We have examples of women writing and designing games, which you flat out ignore every single time. Again and again.
>>3879537Actually the quest is still very simpish overall, nothing like the attitude or choices you might get to make in some older CRPG's, especially Fallout. Pretty much every 'noble' diatribe revolves around protecting a woman in some way and who had a woman's best interests in mind, with Geralt's dialogue dialogue options almost invariably condemnding the abuse ( agaisnt a cheating whore ) even if you can be understanding on other issues.But unlike you I'm intellectually honest, so I will add that's actually mostly irrelevant because Geralt is a huge simp as written anyway irrespective of questline.But it does help when you work for an Eastern European company in one of the most conservative countries in Europe which doesn't 'embrace feminism' on all of their public relations media, at least... not at the time. Still a cliche melodrama that could've been filled in by any of the male writers.
>>3879554>1 Designer out of 9 is 'high-level position'I'll give you a hint: You can find the actual high-level positions on the wikipedia sidebar, not in the bowels of a trailing list.
>we're at a point where zoomers don't even know about big names like roberta williams and lori colegrim
>>3879556You're right, you got me. Nothing would change about video games if they were made by 100% women too and there is absolutely no difference in diversity hiring in gaming between 1999 and 2025. ( Even though every public-facing modern female developer is lamenting the fact that things *were* totally different in the past and commending the new 'progress' )
>>3879557>But unlike you I'm intellectually honest, so I will add that's actually mostly irrelevantHOLY FUCKING TOP KEKYou LITERALLY deflected and dismissed EVERYTHING and have the gall to claim you're "intellectually honest". You are factually delusional and close-minded. The most mentally immature person ITT.You're literally saying there isn't a single instance of any women in the history of humanity where they have ever written or designed something good, or something you liked. This is LITERALLY what you're trying to peddle here while then thinking you're rational and mentally mature.
>>3879557So you haven't played that game either? Why is it so hard for you retards to play games when you can spend hours a day seething about them here?
>>3879560>maybe if i start listing a bunch of logical fallacies, move goalposts and deflect that won't suddenly mean i was wrong, i'm so smartI too start talking about the weather when someone proves me wrong.
>>3879558Are you saying you don't think designers are a high-level position? Who do you think does the work of, you know, designing the game? You don't think Gaider or Kristjanson had any important input on the game?If you actually knew anything about game development that your AI wasn't feeding to you, you would've specified 'senior' or 'lead' positions to begin with, but again that would be moving the goalposts.
>>3879559T he girlsquad in this thread is hilarious. Roberta WIlliams is like the Ada Lovelace of gaming in smarmy feminists 'proving to male 'dumbasses' that actually, women are no less genius and just as equally the greatest of scientists and inventors as any man.And all the Sierra games where milquetoast cookie-cutter tropes fit only for the 80's where you just bought what works. And of course no credit given to Ken either, kek. Why is it that we have a bazillion male developers doing their own thing but the one example of a female 'big name' is leaning on her gamedev husband?
>>3879558>WikipediaFucking kek
>>3879561>>3879562>>3879564>>3879565>>3879567Why are you shrieking so much while being too afraid to even reveal your gender? D2NJ
>>3879570Seethe a little harder, faggot
>>3879571How can you repeatedly pretend to be aloof and elated in a situation where you can't even acknowledge your own gender? It simply doesn't work.I'm a male. Your turn.
>>3879573>pretendWatching you continually humiliate yourself by posting some of the dumbest shit imaginable isn't particularly intellectually taxing.Unfortunately for you, I'm male - it's just your schizophrenia that's making you assume that everyone disagreeing with you must be a woman or a whiteknight, rather than just people who are making fun of you for being retarded.
>>3879557>Actually the quest is still very simpish overallThe Bloody Baron questline alone is widely regarded as the best questline in the game by most players.The quest plays with your expectations, where you initially think the Baron is just an abusive asshole, but as you talk to him and learn more about the situation throughout the quest you find out.>baron and his wife were in love, but he had to go off to war>meanwhile the wife cheated on him and burned the barons money for years>when baron came home she had left and taken things and baron's daughter with her>baron found and in anger killed the man she cheated on him with>baron's wife tried to kill him and was bitter for the rest of the time, while constantly intentionally making him angry or trying to kill him and herself>baron tried to make things right and be nice, give her gifts>the wife slowly turned the daughter against the baron>the wife got pregnant again, but made a deal with children eating evil witches to miscarry, then serve the witches taking care of the children the witches would eat>baron takes his life if his wife dies, if she is cursed in another end to the quest he leaves to try and cure her, even after all this>baron is shown to be a good person at heart, with how he helps and treats ciri and take in an orphan childThe villain of this story is the wife 100%, but the Baron is not faultless. This is good writing because it shows humans being flawed.How exactly does this paint the women in the story in a positive light?
>>3879570A better question, why are you so afraid of being wrong about anything. Is this how you behave when you get a wrong answer on a test or a coworker says you're doing something wrong.
>>3879576Consider it professional curiosity on my part to know the motivation for all of your hysterics. How many good boy points are you getting for this?>Watching you continually humiliate yourself by posting some of the dumbest shit imaginablSo in order not to humiliate myself further I should... *checks notes*...accept some pompous obtuse pedantic nonsense and subsequently acknowledge that a game with zero women in LEEEEEEAAADDDD positions and a single woman out of 9 in a 'high'-level position, with other women adjusting sounds and arts, still produced a result that wasn't heavily affected by estrogenic sensibilities?Sure, I can do that. Unfortunately it's not a point in *your* favor, it's a point in mine. Do you know what 'Statistics' are? If you are so eager to really prove your point about how women are no more likely to produce woke trash, why not start by adding some amazing games from female-dominated studios to my playlist? How about that? Is that too much to ask? Women can do anything just as decently after all.
>>3879577Yes but you see, that doesn't count because Gerald is FORCED to call the Baron an evil mysoginist and side with his wife (ChatGPT told me so)
>>3879573I mean... are you sure though? Like why is it so important to you to tell everyone? Why should we care? Why do you care so much about what we should believe you are? That doesn't seem masculine to me. That seems pretty fucking feminine. Like ditzy, shallow high school cheerleader Mean Girls levels of toxic femininity.Also, "male" is not a gender. It's a sex. Sex and gender are different things. If you're trying to convince us you're a man, you're doing a terrible job.Men can be quiet. Girls can't. Men don't care about impressing anonymous strangers. Girls do.
>>3879586Anon, you said something which was repeatedly proven wrong. You plugged your ears and instead resorted to deflection, fallacies and personal attacks because you're close-minded.Do you know what intelligent mature people do? They challenge their ideas and admit when they're wrong. You're doing the opposite of this.
>>3879586I don't care about any of your drivel. You originally said KotOR didn't have "a single woman in a high-level position" >>3879508which you now accept was wrong, yet for some reason you're still replying as if you think you're going to distract from that fact. Thanks for playing! Better luck next time!
>>3879589>Sex and gender are different thingsStopped reading here
>>3879586>So in order not to humiliate myself further I should... *checks notes*.You should probably just cut your losses and stop replying, yeah. Continually doubling down and making yourself look even more retarded isn't doing you any favours.
>>3879577I didn't say it paints them in a good light, I said it's still a pretty simpish quest, where you can even look at it from the perspective of "I support women's rights AND WOMEN'S WRONGS" meme. >Kill the man, spare the cheating cunt ( Both should be executed under classic adultery laws )>Baron responds by being a simp>You job is to save the women>Still get corralled by dialogue to give him flack for a lot of stuff much more than your dialogue with the women themselves>Baron is a good person because he keeps trying to win back a bitchThis is what it means that it's still a pretty simpish quest overall. If you want to see what the opposite side of the spectrum really looks like, go play Fallout 2 where your main selling point ( pun intended ) as a female character is basically just being a whore in 70% of quests and dialogues
>>3879592Which it still doesn't unless you're a pedantic idiot and an incoherent one at that. If being 1 out of 9 'Designers' is what *you* define as 'high-level', then what the fuck is low-level? These are old games, there aren't that many employees. Is it the Janitor perhaps? Can you give me a brief overview of the LOW-level roles in the company?
>>3879589Actually the most feminine thing you can do is dodge simple questions, on an anonymous forum at that, I've already answered your question - I want to know if there are any ulterior motives to all this weaseling after spending more than enough time on the substance of it. Answer won't change the outcome, only my own puzzlement.
>>3879599Clay head moistener
>>3879599Despite the fact that you yourself just acknowledged it as a high-level role, kek? Your dementia is showing in an attempt to weasel out of yet another error. Yes, designers are a high-level role - in almost every developer (and certainly for Bioware at the time) they are the most important department even above narrative since they actually do the work of, you know, designing the game. Still haven't heard an argument of why a designer shouldn't be considered high-level, by the way.>can you give me a brief overview of the LOW-level roles in the company?kek, what's the matter, did ChatGPT not give you an effective summary?QA, testing, low-level (functionality) programming, production artists, production animators, departmental assistants etc.>these are old games, there aren't that many employeesThere are more than 270 people listed in the credits for KotOR and that wasn't even Bioware's only team.
>>3879097>are just ignorant asspulled delusions.>"Feedback Being stalked by a jilted ex is a little too close to home for some people."You're arguing against what Sawyer himself said. Pretending that he's the same person he was in 2010. I can assure you that no one at Obsidian Entertainment jokes about rape at work anymore like they did back in 2009 >>3878224>>3879350They changed and rewrote the characters. You'd need to pull up the original design docs to see if it was in fact contradictory. Regardless, Sawyer didn't say "We changed the character because on further reflection, it didn't make sense." He said>"Feedback Being stalked by a jilted ex is a little too close to home for some people."Here's the actual talk https://youtu.be/6r6JSHlq7WU?t=3747>The initial concept was that Benwenth was jilted as a lover by Aeldys and he wanted a revenge against her. We had some devs say "Hey there are a lot of people who have to deal with the jilted ex stalking them and like trying to kill them so it's like a little uncomfortable" and they said like "Does it ultimately, like, does this need to be the set up of these two characters?" and initially I was kind of like "Well, I mean maybe?" and then the more I thought about it, I was like "No not really." Like it wasn't really important to the quest. We just needed a motivation. We needed a motivation thatmeant that Bewneth could betray Aeldys and there were lots of other ideas we had. The idea of him being a jilted lover was like just the first idea we came up with. No one was really attached to it and by listening to the devs who were saying like "This comes off kind of weird" we changed it."Hey there are a lot of people who have to deal with the jilted ex stalking them and like trying to kill them so it's like a little uncomfortable" isn't "This characterization doesn't make sense."
>>3879662>They changed and rewrote the characters. You'd need to pull up the original design docs to see if it was in fact contradictory.No, we don't. I can pull up the game right now and see what they're like in the game. >>Like it wasn't really important to the quest. We just needed a motivation. We needed a motivation that meant that Bewneth could betray Aeldys and there were lots of other ideas we had.Sawyer literally says in this very part you have quoted that him being a jilted lover isn't the important part of his character and that it was only ever about giving him a possible motivation, and that it was one of many ideas that they had. As people have said many times in this thread already, concepting and iteration is an extremely common occurance in development. He wasn't conceived solely as some kind of sexual harasser and then changed because it made someone uncomfortable.
>>3879605I wasn't that anon. I'm just noticing that you absolutely cannot just let shit go. You're literally panic-spamming about it... It just got so bad I had to comment even though it wasn't my conversation. You need help, dude. Turn your computer off. Go make an appointment to see someone about this shit.
>>3879559>we're at a point where zoomers don't even know about big names like roberta williams and lori coleToo occupied with the culture war
who could've predicted that a 4chan thread on a video game board about women having jobs would've spiraled out of control???
^female coded emotional response written by a hambeast^
>statement of fact>agp sufferers get offended and fight as if they're real womenlmao.the genuinely good female devs from the 90's all did other shit. Terri Brosius was with looking glass for Thief/System Shock, Roberta Williams, etc. For whatever reason, real women working on RPGs have never been a great boon to the game
>>3879559she never worked on rpgs >>3873761E33 is astroturf garbage. awful saccharine writing, awful combat, etc. what casuals really want is AAA presentation. same reason why bg3 was so successful even though that game is fucking garbage
>>3879896>real women working on RPGs have never been a great boon to the gameYou keep saying this and also keep plugging your ears to the one that wrote and designed the most well received questlines in games like Witcher 3.Of course that doesn't fit your close-minded narrative, so you prefer to plug your ears and deflect. It's more intelligent to do that than to admit your ignorant narrow-minded extremist views were wrong.
>>3879673>No, we don't. I can pull up the game right now and see what they're like in the game.The game as released doesn't have the characters as originally written, why can't you grasp that?>He wasn't conceived solely as some kind of sexual harasser and then changed because it made someone uncomfortable.I'm amazed that you can read his direct words and come up with an entirely different meaning from what he said.a) Benwenth was conceived as jilted and that's why he wanted to get back at Aeldysb) Garsten cries to Sawyer saying it makes her feel unsafec) Sawyer's initially hesitant to change it and then decides that one motivation is just as good as any other like a good feminist ally.d) A decade ago when Avellone brought up the same concerns about the Legion and Cook Cook, Sawyer told him to go to hell, even though the game didn't "need" those characters to be that way either. Avellone created the Legion in the first place, they didn't have rape camps when he designed them, that's something Sawyer added to them back when he inherited Van Buren.
>>3879899>in games like Witcher 3.witcher 3, E33, and BG3 are all fucking garbage. you're talking to a grognard, I don't give a shit about those games my man. get back to me when a woman develops and writes her own Underrail
UnderrailGrimoireKnights of the Chalice still waiting for a woman to spend a major chunk of her life developing and writing her own RPG game on her own
A bunch of young guys with no HR department and the freedom to watch porn at work made Baldur's Gate 2. Add HR and a bunch of women and you get Veilguard.
>>3879914sawyer and the rest got hired just by being avid TTRPG players who could work a computer. 30 years later the genre is full of failed female writers on AAA development teams
>>3879914>GaiderDA2, Inquisition>OhlerTORDidn't need help from women to make flops
>>3879901>The game as released doesn't have the characters as originally writtenCorrect, but I'm talking about the characters as they are in the game.>Benweth and Aedlys? No. He's a slimeball trying to undermine her. >>3879090>This is Benweth.>>A veteran of the Dyrwoodan navy, Benweth is known for his brutality and aggression, earning him the moniker "Brutal Ben". >>3878694These are both referring to the characters as they are in the game. If what you meant to talk about was their original concepts, then yes, you'd have to reference the original design documents so I guess your argument is fucked either way.>I'm amazed that you can read his direct words and come up with an entirely different meaning from what he said.I'd say I was amazed that you can manage to read his direct words and completely fail to understand them, but here we are.-Benweth was conceived as "someone who could turn on Aeldys".-Him being a jilted lover was only the first motivation they came up with for doing so-DevS (multiple, it's in the post you quoted and the video you linked) point out that it's "kind of weird"-Sawyer recognises this and they change it to something that better fits the gameIf it were only the "being stalked by an ex-lover" bit that was weird they could have excised it without changing anything else about their relationship, or framed it in a different way. Instead, they changed their relationship to something that was more fitting for the game because this is how characters and concept development works. Again, iteration, a concept you clearly don't understand.I ask again, did Benweth NEED to be a jilted lover? Did the game need him to be that way?
>>3879902Ah yes, your amazing counter point is more deflection and saying "the games are shit!".Then you throw out a game which you think gives you cool hipster 4chan points Underrail (which had a female programmer btw).All the while not even being able to prove the statement >real women working on RPGs have never been a great boon to the gameAll you're admitting to is that you're an emtionally fragile and immature person that can't admit when he's wrong and can't even back up his own irrational ideas. Ironically, you behave like the typical woman, so maybe you should get a gender change to match.
>>3879902Underrail is much worse than all three of those games, though.
>giant thread full of middle-aged men having a grade-schooler level argumentYou, faggots, all should kill yourself, it's over for you.
>>3880052It's a thread full of people trying to talk sense into idiots, just like every other thread on 4chan.
>>3872481>It's a little more nuanced than thatOkay, what's your take on why this kind of thing has disappeared from games now?
>>3872350I remember that Arcanum half-orcs have an optional background that their parents actually liked each other and it wasn't rape
>>3880057Art is important - whether overgrown hall monitors get tenure or fags get free PrEP is not.
>>3880069That's nice.
>>3880057>picrelWhat you’d call “capitalism” and socialism are both part of a Hegelian dialectic designed to drive you towards the synthesis “solution” to the problems intentionally created by the same group of people behind both systems, you absolute midwit. The Rothschilds were enthusiastically giving millions of dollars to support the Bolsheviks.
>>3879922>Didn't need help from women to make flopsLook at the credits of those two games to see how they had plenty of women on the team. They didn't enter the industry over night, it's something that built up over time until it reached a critical breaking point.
>>3880199Yes, I'm sure it was entirely to do with the women on the team and not the male leads/directors/designers
>>3879941>-DevS (multiple, it's in the post you quoted and the video you linked) point out that it's "kind of weird"Yeah there are multiple women and plenty of male feminist allies at Obsidian.>If it were only the "being stalked by an ex-lover" bit that was weird they could have excised it without changing anything else about their relationship, or framed it in a different way. Instead, they changed their relationship to something that was more fitting for the game because this is how characters and concept development works. Again, iteration, a concept you clearly don't understand.And this is something you're making up entirely in your head. Sawyer directly stated their reasons for changing it: it made women uncomfortable. He doesn't mention anything about how "it didn't fit the game." That is not the complaint that was brought to him. You are projecting that.>I ask again, did Benweth NEED to be a jilted lover? Did the game need him to be that way?There are a lot of elements in games that are complete unnecessary. There's an argument that can be made to file away every single edge, and that's how you get Veilguard.
>>3880202The presence of women changes a company's culture. No one at Bioware watches porn at work anymore >>3879914 No one at Obsidian jokes about rape anymore >>3878224
>>3880210Both Bioware and Obsidian made good games after that apparently stopped happening, though. So what's your argument?
>>3880212>Both Bioware and Obsidian made good games after that apparently stopped happening, though.BioWares last good game was BG2Obsidians last good game was Alpha Protocol
>>3880206>just ignores the entire first half of the post because you don't have a counterargumentkek, I accept your concession.>Yeah there are multiple women and plenty of male feminist allies at Obsidian.So at first it was "Sawyer changed it because one specific woman complained", now it's "he changed it because multiple women and allies complained" (even though he never specified his comments that it was only women). That's called "moving the goalposts".>He doesn't mention anything about how "it didn't fit the game." That is not the complaint that was brought to him. You are projecting that.I'm commenting on evidence we have directly in his comments and in the game, since apparently I'm the one one of the two of us to have played it. He said that multiple devs thought it was "kind of weird" and that on reflection he recognised it wasn't necessary for the game. Again, if it was only the "being stalked by an ex-lover" that was making people uncomfortable they could've excised it from the game without changing anything else about the characters. The fact that they rewrote both characters and their relationship to be something more fitting is what tells you that they thought it was necessary.>There are a lot of elements in games that are complete unnecessary. There's an argument that can be made to file away every single edge, and that's how you get Veilguard.That's true, but I'm not talking about filing away every single edge, and clearly they didn't. I'm talking about this specific case, not a different, irrelevant game. Why can't you answer the question?
>>3880220Alpha Protocol released in 2010, after that post was made.
>>3880224Fair cop, you got me there guvnah
>>3880231Well, it's been a pleasure.Also you forgot Jade Empire
>>3880232Never played it, looked lame.
>>3880241You missed out, it's fun, you get to beat the shit out of chinamen and ghosts and it has Robin Atkin Downes voicing one of the companions
>entire thread are a handful of schizos doing mental gymnastics to keep deluding themselves that the instant a woman is either on the dev team or writes/designs something the game is auto shit and woke>even though countless examples are raised to disprove it, they keep plugging their ears or pulling shit from their ass to explain every new counter-exampleMaybe it's time you grew up and realized that both men and women can write/design shit or good stuff. You would know this if you looked at your top 50 games and read the credits.This is just embarrassing.
>>3880744It's understandable, given how much the worst examples of women in the industry have been in the spotlight for years, as if the goal was to divide and incite women hatin'
>>3880754No female developer has done as much damage as Casey Hudson or Emil have to their respective studios.
>>3880757Leads are easy to blame
>>3880784No shit, that's because they've got most of the responsibility. That's why they're called 'leads'.
>>3880784Management are pretty much always the reason games are bad, not the ground floor workers doing what they're told.Publishers, Directors, Leads and studio owners both tell people below then what to do and approves their work. So even if a grunt does something initially bad, the peopel above them never guided them to make it better or just straight up approved their work.
>>3880784>both are on record for the many, many blunders they've made>why would people blame the ones making the decisions
>>3879616Assistants, QA and testing, really Anon? The kind of shit that half of which besides the in-house team usually gets outsourced or handled by remote jeets? Wow, we're really digging deep I guess. Not sure exactly what a 'production' animator is supposed to be, but given how compartmentalized or vague the job of 'design' can be once you have several of them rather than just one, I don't think animators are more -low-level- by any internal classification.The only actual official ranking used by the companies themselves when it comes to who's above who is going to relate to the lead roles, and then to any senior department organizers underneath. As for the full KOTOR credits, https://www.mobygames.com/game/9734/star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic/credits/windows/ - why is it that trying to play 'Find the woman' in here akin to searching for a needle in a haystack until you reach Human Resources ( topkek ) and VO? The only 'concession' I can give you about where women make up more like one and a half fraction rather than a fraction in various pre-woke RPG's is maybe in software management ( E.G Compatibility ), Voiceover, and places that overlap with other industries where having to understand what appeals to gamers or gaming isn't the job, unsurprisingly. And don't get too excited, it's negligible there too.But I said it before, if this is the hill you want your dilating ass to die on, owning the chuds by circling one female in a non-lead role out of 10 men when women are 50% of the population, failing to name any awesome female-dominated dev teams, failing to explain to other posters why there aren't any RPG's with solo female developers, and claim this as your proof that women equally made everything we love, you can take that W. I give it to you freely.Meanwhile, studios with an actual artificial influx of women in diversity quotas and 'female friendly' development are at it again with the Gothic remake as we speak. Oops, I did it again..
I would also like to petition the resident raging mangina ITT to take the time and enlighten us about how, as a matter of fact, women were equally responsible for every single scientific invention and philosophical and theological treatise that anyone has ever utilized.Since clearly they have the time to spare, maybe they can go through a list of geniuses and put a little red lime beneath 'Ada Lovelace' and pat themselves on the back about how hard they debunked the manchildrenCan we make this happen?
>>3880825>>and put a little red lime>seething so hard you can't even spell correctlyLimes are green, you retarded ESL
>>3880820Careful, she's gonna scour Steam now for the one farming sim RPG maker shovelware that was made by a solo female dev and deboonk you
>>3880820>says that there's not a single woman in a high level role>instantly proven wrong>now has to dissemble because you can't just admit you were wrongKEKAROO>The kind of shit that half of which besides the in-house team usually gets outsourced or handled by remote jeets?This was 20 years ago, most developers had in-house teams or worked with their publisher. I count 12 people listed as internal QA and another 12 for Lucasarts. You asked what low level roles would be, no need to seethe because I could answer your question and ChatGPT couldn't.>given how compartmentalized or vague the job of 'design' can be once you have several of them rather than just one, I don't think animators are more -low-level- by any internal classification.This just makes you a retard who has no idea about game development (so the same as every other post in the argument you've made, really)>why is it that trying to play 'Find the woman' in here akin to searching for a needle in a haystack until you reach Human Resources ( topkek ) and VO?Just skimming the credits I count two programmers and the designer I previously mentioned. Or is that not technical enough for you? The argument isn't about some nebulous number of women on a dev team like you're trying to shift the goalposts to now, you said there wasn't a single woman in a high-level role and you were wrong. Take the L.Once again I accept your concessions, you can cope and seethe as much as you want and it won't make you any less wrong.
>>3880820>failing to explain to other posters why there aren't any RPG's with solo female developersHow many RPGs are there with solo male developers? How many of those are good games?
>>3880833Anon, do we have any indication from anywhere which isn't your distorted estrogen-flooded mind that Mrs.Cori Nay, one member out of 10, whose name ( Unlike one or two other members who were actually influential in the process ) has never come up in any interview or discussions about those games whatsoever, was a 'high-level' employee? With no designation of seniority or leadership whatsoever? No, you're just going to make a bed impression of a smarmy redditor again? Oh well.>This was 20 years agoIn case you haven't noticed we've mostly been talking about games that came out '20 years ago' for this entire time, so either way, what's the point again?>This just makes you a retard who has no idea about game developmentI accept your concessions.>The argument isn't about some nebulous number of women on a dev team1.5% women in a whole studio = 'some nebulous number'. Kek, estrogenic intellectual honestly on full display. I'm just like, moving goalposts between 50 women versus 68 women or maybe 100 women, that sort of thing, right? Not as if you were only able to find all of 2 women connected to the game itself in a massive list.>you said there wasn't a single woman in a high-level role and you were wrong. Take the L.I accept that in your mind it is real, but not in any actual snapshot of the 'main developers' in any summary. But hey, if you're now just struggling to 'get me' about the presence of a single woman somewhere and nothing else, that's a step in the right direction.
>>3880838Stardew Valley ( Even the girl game had to be made by a male, holy guacamoli ), Underrail Undertale, the Spiderweb Software games are impressive for what they are with only one autist making them, Knights of the ChaliceMany, not many, good, mediocre, bad... they're all made by men and the ones made by 2 and 3 people that are even more successful and famous are as far as I know almost entirely made by men too. What exactly does tell us about the spluttering feminist drivel of 'Men and women can both make good and shit!! Female devs are no different than male devs in RPG's!!'Why are all of them comprised of men?
>>3880850>Stardew ValleySimulation game, not an RPG>UnderrailNot a solo developer, try again. And had a woman on the dev team (AIIIIIIIIIIIIII)>UndertaleTerrible game and "rpg">Spiderware SoftwareLiterally a husband and wife team you retarded fuckI know you're grasping at straws but this is just sad.
>>3880843>Anon, do we have any indication from anywhere which isn't your distorted estrogen-flooded mind that Mrs.Cori Nay, one member out of 10, whose name ( Unlike one or two other members who were actually influential in the process ) has never come up in any interview or discussions about those games whatsoever, was a 'high-level' employee? With no designation of seniority or leadership whatsoever?The credits list we're talking about? You can read, can't you? She's credited as a designer, design is a high-level position, therefore she worked in a high-level position. Basic logic, it's not that hard to follow. Oh, I forgot, according to you design isn't any more high-level than animation, KEK>so either way, what's the point again?Are you so fucking ADHD ridden you couldn't finish reading the rest of the sentence? My point is that despite your claiming it was outsourced there are 12 people listed as working in that role for Bioware and another 12 for Lucasarts, so clearly it wasn't outsourced. But like through this whole "discussion" you've just elected to ignore anything that proves you wrong.>>This just makes you a retard who has no idea about game development>I accept your concessions.So you are genuinely, legitimately arguing that design isn't any more high-level than animation? Holy kek, you really do know nothing about game development.>But hey, if you're now just struggling to 'get me' about the presence of a single woman somewhere and nothing else, that's a step in the right direction.You know people can just scroll up if they want to see what you posted before, right? It doesn't get magically erased just because it's inconvenient for you. Here, I'll quote the very post where you said said something so obviously wrong and retarded that you're still seething about it now: >>3879508>>P.S - I like KOTOR too, it was made by roughly the same men and not a single woman in any high-level position.>>and not a single woman in any high-level position
>>3880852>Literally a husband and wife team you retarded fuck'Team'. So you're one of those, huh. All the 20th century physics papers were also a 'joint collaboration' between a man and a woman because the wifey was found to have 'been involved' in some fashion, right? Is that why Jeff Vogel is the only one credit in any store page or encyclopedia or registry when it comes to the development itself? Or maybe...https://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/misc/krizsan.html"In general, I do everything at Spiderweb that Jeff doesn't. This translates to all **website maintaince, customer support, testing**, and whatever design work is kicking around.">I know you're grasphing at straws but this is just sad.And that, folks, is how projection looks like. I don't even need to address the rest of your metldown, Anonette. This is already funny enough as it is.
>>3880859>seething so hard you're going back to posting reaction imagesHoly kek, you really are mad>>and whatever design work is kicking aroundSo design doesn't count as dev work? I never said she did 50% of the work, I specifically asked YOU for solo male devs and you couldn't even do that. Even if she did 1% of the work, you'd still be wrong.What, not going to mention about how you cited a game that isn't an RPG and one that obviously had more than one developer including a woman (save me niggerman!)The hilarious thing about you mentioning Underrail is that not only has the lead developer been upfront that it's not a solo effort, someone earlier in the thread mentioned that there was a woman on the dev team. I guess you were so blinded by sperg rage that you couldn't read it, kek
>>3880857Do me a favor and let me know once you can present virtually any external source other than your circular takes about how 'Design' is of a higher-level than the Animation department. Maybe punch it into the A.I's you always ramble about, but you won't like the result. In reality, what you actually have to show is that Cori Nay had any 'Senior' prefix attached to her specifically within the team if apparently 'Lead' is too big for you to swallow, which is how the studios themselves sort rankings. Because the lead animator is way more 'high-level' than any given game design student who got hired as one of a dozen designers. Or maybe try to ask yourself what a single designer does when there are several of them. Design every aspect of the game 10 times over for fun? Or either brainstorm David Gaider's creative direction/be in charge of designing something compartmental like the level architecture? Because if it's one of the latter two, and it is, it's not really more critical than the animator's job.
>>3880862>The hilarious thing about you mentioning UnderrailSugartits, the only hilarious thing here is that your female pride is so wounded that you cling to random comments on a 4chan thread as solid citations.https://stygiansoftware.com/about.htmlThis is Stygian Software's own website, I'd imagine they know who deserves credit for working on their game. Please pull the soaked tampon out of your vagina and put it on the 'female programmer' for me.>Even if she did 1% of the work, you'd still be wrong.That's great, I can agree to be 'wrong' in that sense that your boyfriends are always wrong in every bratty moment you have until you get the last word in.
>>3880868By the way, I hope you don't intend to bring up Dejan's wife who is not mentioned in his own website because she ( Yet again ) barely had a steady role at all besides occasionally assisting with a thing or two here or there.
>>3880784>Leads are easy to blame>>3880794>>3880798>>3880803Pretty much what I expected
>>3880868Not that guy but Styg'a wife did some programming in the game. Probably not much in the grand scheme of things, but enough that she got credited at the end. The only other woman to contribute to the game was an artist who did some portraits.
>>3880868So when I asked you for SOLO male devs and you mentioned Underrail, those four people listed on the website, are they different names for the same people? Or are you wrong, yet again?>That's great, I can agree to be 'wrong' in that sense that your boyfriends are always wrong in every bratty moment you have until you get the last word in.So... you're wrong because you said something obviously wrong, I provided evidence you were wrong, and now you're seething about it? I'm glad we're finally on the same page.>>3880870I guess you finally did a google search to find out who we were talking about since you're scrambling to shift the goalposts, kek>b-b-but I meant she didn't do enough of the workOnce again, I accept your concession.
>>3880871Don't you have a game to be ruining, Casey?
>>3880863I've already explained to you why design is more high-level than animation, and it's a simple argument, not a circular one. Though I guess you're too retarded to correctly read what I've already written, let alone follow simple logic, so I shouldn't be too surprised.The hierarchy of development is simple, direction > design > implementation. Animators work on implementation. I mean, what do you think a design department does? A simple Google search would have told you that.>Maybe punch it into the A.I's you always ramble about, but you won't like the result.You're the only one here who's used an AI for anything, and it was still something you got wrong, kek>In reality, what you actually have to show is that Cori Nay had any 'Senior' prefix attached to her specifically within the team if apparently 'Lead' is too big for you to swallow, which is how the studios themselves sort rankings.I never said 'lead' or 'senior', because that isn't what you originally said - again, because you're a retard who doesn't understand anything about game development. If you had said that to begin with, we would be having a different discussion - but you didn't, so you just have to accept being wrong.>Because the lead animator is way more 'high-level' than any given game design student who got hired as one of a dozen designers.Yeah, because they're a lead, not because they're an animator. Is this too hard a concept for you to grasp?>because if it's one of the latter two, and it is, it's not really more critical than the animator's job.How do you think the animators know what to animate?
>>3880873Yes, but Dejan doesn't even include her on the company's page. And of course she also never appeared in any of the devlogs, so either Dejan is a narcissist who didn't want to glorify his wife too much or it was not enough to be worthy of a visible position Don't see any women in the 'Art' section either which makes sense if it was just a few portraits, similar minor interventions by Ivana.>>3880874No, this is exactly the same caliber of asinine mental gymnastics your kind excels at to snarkily declare that 'men' never invented most scientific theories by themselves either because all of them were married, they were working on lifetime projects, could use all the help they can get, and so their wife who also understood some entry level math handled some tedious calculations or maybe even just organized the papers and compiled the notations.
>>3880885She is literally in the credits for the fucking game, you gigaretard. And nobody calls him 'Dejan'>mental gymnasticsNo, that's what you're doing to try and avoid the point, because you know you're wrong and you're just hoping if you vomit out enough words people might ignore it>baaaaaaaaawwwwwwww that isn't what I meant!>even though I said something wrong what I meant was completely different, you should have knownCry moar, you fucking retard
Married women are based. Single women are basically fags
>>3880221>So at first it was "Sawyer changed it because one specific woman complained", now it's "he changed it because multiple women and allies complained" (even though he never specified his comments that it was only women). That's called "moving the goalposts".No it isn't. It doesn't matter at all if it was one single woman or multiple women who complained. The actual number is an irrelevant detail.>He said that multiple devs thought it was "kind of weird" and that on reflection he recognised it wasn't necessary for the game. Again, if it was only the "being stalked by an ex-lover" that was making people uncomfortable they could've excised it from the game without changing anything else about the characters. The fact that they rewrote both characters and their relationship to be something more fitting is what tells you that they thought it was necessary.You're still projecting. They thought it was weird because "there are a lot of people who have to deal with the jilted ex stalking them and like trying to kill them so it's like a little uncomfortable." He doesn't mention anything else. I'm taking his words at face value, you're imposing another interpretation.>That's true, but I'm not talking about filing away every single edge, and clearly they didn't. There's no sexual violence in Deadfire. Or Avowed or The Outer Worlds for that matter. Completely excised as an acceptable element to use.>>3880224Games aren't made overnight. Alpha Protocol was in development since 2006.>>3880744Women will enter a company and pretend to be chill but once they have the numbers they flip and start demanding changes. This happens everywhere. If you think men act the same when around just other men and when around other women you are simply wrong. This study also backs it up https://academic.oup.com/ej/article-abstract/130/627/716/5715606
>>3880885>Yes, but Dejan doesn't even include her on the company's page.Because she is not an employee of Stygian, same with everyone else who did contract work for the game. I don't think she did anything significant, just saying that you shouldn't confuse company profile with credits.
>>3880890Did you notice the pattern of 'Additional developers' being filed under 'Additional' because they did essentially jack shit? Music isn't really game development, neither is title art or portraits, they're assets you could use for websites too, character models is the only borderline one if it was more than art, and then his wife for 'programming'Why is she not among the developers? They put all the other programmers in there. It's because she only skimmed over some things as the lead dev's wife but wasn't really a committed dev.>because you know you're wrong and you're just hoping if you vomit out enough words people might ignore itTrue, I'm wrong. A man didn't invent the theory of General Relativity because his wife also wrote stuff in his papers sometimes.
>>3880897Weird distinction for an indie homegrown brand because they can just inert whoever they want into their 'About' page, not like you don't have unpaid interns or even indie games that publish for free and likewise with modders ( E.G Beyond Skyrim team )The fact she only appears alongside portrait and title art extras definitely means the contribution didn't make the cut for a full-fledged developer acknowledgement.
>>3880898>ACHSHUALLY what I meant was that she had to be an employee of the companyThis level of cope is beyond sad and is now fucking hilarious>why is she not among the developersBecause she's not an employee of the company. Are you genuinely illiterate? Stygian Software employees are listed first, and then contract developers. Maybe if you actually read what you were responding to instead of having a spergout desparately trying to defend yourself you wouldn't make yourself look quite so dumb, kek
>>3880906>I, a random anon, know who did what work on the game better than the developers themselves
>>3880898So when I asked you for SOLO male developers. The other four developers listed under Stygian Software in the credits, what did they do? Clearly it was important enough for a full acknowledgement, like you said.
>>3880908Why is she not an 'employee of the company'? Plenty of family businesses have family members that do work 'pro bono' for them.I guess her husband just failed to mention her name on the 'About' page even if it's just a 'Special thanks' because she's 'not an employee'. Who knows, maybe she developed 50% of the game and did more than all the named developers, right? We just don't know! She's not an employee so it wouldn't be emphasized even if she did, right?
>>3880909Yes, that's why they structured the credits and their website in a way that makes it abundantly clear to non-retards who the real developers were.>>>3880910Apparently a lot of graphical coding for the engine among other things, I guess this is a valid point and it's wrongly featured in some single-dev lists. I think it was *originally* piloted by Styg but he picked up more help along the way.
>>3880911This is just embarrasing now. Do you not know what the difference between a contractor and an employee is?>I guess her husband just failed to mention her name on the 'About' page even if it's just a 'Special thanks' because she's 'not an employee'.Usually on a company website, when they have an 'about' page specifically about that company, they only list the actual employees of the company, yes.>more mental gymnastics about muh contributionsOnce again, I accept your concession.
>>3880916>t-they're only real developers if I say so>not if the lead developer of the game himself recognises themFucking kekYou are quite possibly the most retarded poster on this entire board, which is saying something.>I guess this is a valid point and it's wrongly featured in some single-dev lists.So you were wrong? Again? I'm glad we can agree.I don't know if you're searching yourself or relying on something to do it for you, but whichever it is, it isn't working for you. Styg has always been pretty open about the other people on the team.
>>3880921Again roastie, why do you think that she is the ONLY 'programmer' who is listed under 'additional developers' and not the developers, even in the credits? Because she hasn't done enough or invested enough to qualify.>Hurrdurr u dunnoShe's also had zero input for any changelog, I wonder why.>>3880924No, they're real developers when the lead developers names them as the developers, himself as the lead developer, and minor contributors in the 'additional' category.
>>3880939>why do you think that she is the ONLY 'programmer' who is listed under 'additional developers' and not the developers, even in the credits?Because she's the only one who's a contractor and not an employee, this has been explained to you already. Are you saying that it's impossible for a contractor to contribute to the game?>She's also had zero input for any changelogShow me the input all the others had on the changelog, then.>No, they're real developers when the lead developers names them as the developers, himself as the lead developer, and minor contributors in the 'additional' category.But still contributions, right? After all, you said it yourself >>I'd imagine they know who deserves credit for working on their game >>3880868Like... attributing it in the credits? Oh no, it looks like you've contradicted yourself! Quick, come up with a new angle of cope!
>>3880939>No, they're real developers when the lead developers names them as the developers.
>>3880941>Because she's the only one who's a contractorWhy is she the only 'programmer' who's a 'contractor', you fucking retard? >>3880944>>3880941Do you understand that this 'additional developers' segment in small letters unlike the big letters above them is reserved for people who actually barely 'developed' anything at all like title art, portraits and music and some character art? Do you realize that 'programming' might not even be applied to the game itself at all even by a few lines, and could be programming the startup and compatibility of the installation and files themselves, you retarded samefaggot?
>>3880941>Show me the input all the others had on the changelog, then.It's mostly just Styg going through practically every single component that was ever added and the game and explaining how he came up with it and added it. Here, take your pickhttps://stygiansoftware.com/underrail/DevLogIndex.htmlThat's because even the actual main developers credited mostly worked on graphics or graphical doing a lot as I've explained. In an interview from 9 years ago it's just Styg and Mario too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdX1hmzua7gBut hey, it says Ivana did PROGRAMMING and she's under 'ADDITIONAL DEVELOPERS', maybe she made half the game for all know?!?! Heckin strong woman moment, time to smugly rub my clitty!
>>3876657No shit. Being into videogames back then wasn't the same as being into videogames today. Society has changed. Women and homosexuals and idpol has affected what kind of themes you can surface in videogames. Women and homosexuals occupying positions affect what kind of videogames are produced. This has happened in every part of society, actually. Not just videogames or even just entertainment. Baldur's Gate 3 wouldn't have scenes like those in OP if it was made 25-30 years ago.
>>3881144>wouldn't*would.Actually BG3 as it exists today wouldn't even have been made. Why in the flying fuck would the scene from the game about coming out and pronouns and identity even be an afterthought in the developer's creative conception during the early 90s? It'd be absurd and totally out of place for their target audience.
>>3881124>>they're real developers when the lead developers names them as the developers>literally named as a developer in the credits>>t-that doesn't count!!!1You're so fucking mad right now, kek
>>3881153Okay, I guess Kira Mayer is a real developer of Underrail too. You thought you only DESTROYED me with facts and logic once, but you actually did it twice. The game has TWO female developers who were instrumental to making Underrail and which it couldn't exist without. Obviously there is no reason at all why you'd make a 'Developer category' and 'Additional developer' category in smaller letters, both under the 'Stygian Software' banner, and not just call it 'third-party' like every other credit does when that's the actual purpose of the separation.
>>3881155>Okay, I guess Kira Mayer is a real developer of Underrail too. You thought you only DESTROYED me with facts and logic once, but you actually did it twice. The game has TWO female developers who were instrumental to making Underrail and which it couldn't exist without.Correct. Especially hilarious given this whole melty you're throwing was caused by you citing Underrail when I asked for a game with solo male developers.>obviously there is no reason at all why you'd make a 'Developer category' and 'Additional developer' category in smaller lettersWhat do you think "additional" means?
>>3881159You've somehow managed to outdo the stupidity of your previous MS-paint endeavor of underlining one female designer out of 10 with a colored marker as the solution to your insistence that women have always had a pivotal role in every single good RPG as much as men and had 'high-level' roles in the company, and of course it's the patriarchy's fault that she's just 1 out of 10 and all the leads are men.I didn't think it was possible, but you did it. You know that KOTOR's greatest female visibility other than the HR department is in 'Programming', but programming for compatibility and software execution, not engine programming? Because women, albeit still a minority in computer science back then, were still much more statistically present in general commercial compsci than in game development specifically?You don't even know what kind of programming it was, it's hilarious.>What do you think "additional" means?What do you think the tiny font means? It means people who only provided miscellaneous assets to the game which could've been commissioned from anyone by the actual developers with the general vision for Underrail as a whole.>caused by you citing Underrail when I asked for a game with solo male developers.And if you asked me to cite a physics theory with a solo male physicists and I cited Einstein, I would be wrong because Mileva Marci exists, right? We have to bring all the shitlords who think that it was just ONE MAN kicking and screaming to the year 2025, sis.
>>3881168>your previous MS-paint endeavor of underlining one female designer out of 10 with a colored marker as the solution to your insistence that women have always had a pivotal role in every single good RPG as much as men and had 'high-level' roles in the companyI didn't say that. You were the one who claimed that KotOR didn't have "a single woman in any high-level position" >>3879508 if you've forgotten, and I instantly proved you wrong, and now you've been seething about it for days. I didn't force you to make that claim, you were the one who said something retarded and easily disprovable.Here, I'll help you out with the definition because it looks like your AI is broken.>It means people who only provided miscellaneous assets to the game which could've been commissioned from anyone by the actual developers with the general vision for Underrail as a whole.So why are they listed as "additional developers"? It could have easily been "additional contributions". Are you saying you know the work done on the game better than the people who actually developed and released it?>And if you asked me to cite a physics theory with a solo male physicists and I cited Einstein, I would be wrong because Mileva Marci exists, right?I haven't asked you to do that, though. Nobody forced you to start talking about Underrail; I asked for a game with solo male developers and you were the one who chose to mention it, and now you're seething about being wrong because clearly you didn't do even a cursory amount of research on the game before you brought it up. Why would you mention a game that, even notwithstanding the female programmer you're so desperate to argue about, had four (4) additional people listed as what you yourself accept as "actual" developers in the credits?
>>3881168>And if you asked me to cite a physics theory with a solo male physicists and I cited Einstein, I would be wrong because Mileva Maric exists, right?Was Mileva Maric ever directly credited by Einstein in any of his papers?
>>3880067>doesn't have one
>>3881218>reply to a post that's two weeks old>wtf why aren't you responding to menta, but are you retarded?
>>3881219I showed you my post. Please respond.
>>3881220Sent in PM
>>3880871Who is not to blame if not the people in charge?They set the direction for the game and the content.They tell the people beneath them what to do.They manage and guide the people beneath them.They approve of the things the people beneath them do.Are you some terrible middle manager that blames everyone else because you can't do your job or something? Why are leads and upper management blamemess?
>>3880896>Women will enter a company and pretend to be chill but once they have the numbers they flip and start demanding changes. This happens everywhere.I'm a principal game and level designer that has worked on many games at many studios. This has literally never happened at any studio I worked on. So what are you basing this on? Your ignorant baseless asspulls?Be very specific how you claim this happens in detail. I don't want to here goal posting moving or asspulls here.
>>3881366>Why are leads and upper management blamemess?Are you aware of your black-and-white thinking?
>>3881376Nobody said the wagies were blameless, though.
>>3881380Nobody said the leads were blameless either
>>3881382So what's the point in saying "leads are easy to blame"? Of course they are, they're the ones in charge of the fucking game.
>>3881384The point was to watch you twist>leads are easy to blameinto>leads are blamelessand go on seething about itIt was entertaining
>>3881388>say something retarded>people call you retarded>lole I trole you+1
>>3881389Nobody called me retarded, which is good
>>3881388If something is wrong with a game, management is 100% to blame every single time. It's their responsibility and there are multiple points of failure that lead to something being bad.>management set the direction and what they want to see>management regularly looks over the workers work, gives feedback and says what they want changed or what the worker should do>management could at any point flat out tell the workers exactly what to do, with no leeway>management hired the worker and kept them on>management approved their work in the end>etcWhat exactly are you trying to shift the blame away from management? Is this some lame windy road attempt at>the male directors and leads are based and super talented, it's this woke female that is entirely to blame for this bad quest or character design! so you see women fuck up everything!I say again, if something is shit in a game it's the management that is at fault. Always. Full stop.If anything, it's usually the workers and leads that tend to salvage terrible ideas and direction from upper management.
>>3881395Anon...
>leads are easy to blametwisted into>leads are blamelessand now>>3881396>>the male directors and leads are based and super talented, it's this woke female that is entirely to blame for this bad quest or character design! so you see women fuck up everything!Keep em coming, let your imagination run wild
>>3881368Tyranny fucking sucks ass bro you should never work again. Stop gassing this shit up on the board
>>3881404>Keep em coming, let your imagination run wildYou have been asked multiple times what your point is, instead you resort with deflection.In other words, you cannot back up your stupid statements and concede you are wrong. Any more deflection from you confirms this.A 5 year old can explain themselves and answer simple questions, you cannot. Do the math.
>>3881408>you cannot back up your stupid statements and concede you are wrongHow am I wrong in saying "leads are easy to blame"
>>3872350Why can't the rest of the industry be like eroge? Take the Rance series for example, as time went on less women worked on it, and it got less fucked up.
>>3881415What was the point of that statement. You seem to have extreme troubles elaborating.
>>3881415leads are easy to blame because they are the ones to blame. who else is there to blame. you're not making sense.
>>3881388You have no argument.
>>3880057This has to be bait. I refuse to believe you can be this aggressively retarded in 2025.
I am not sure what I was expecting when I entered the thread but this was a wild read.
>>3879914>We just sort of figured things out and did what was necessary.Is this truly the infinite well of power that is "20-something year old white guys in an office just coding because we like it"?
