Was Daniel intentionally written as an unlikeable cunt, or was it an accident?
>>3885220They forgot to make him handsome, so the character doesn't work
>>3885220I don't think they wrote anything for that dlc. It's surprisingly nothing.
>>3885220I don't like the message fallout tries to make sometimes. "We should run away like a bitch and let them take our land cause violence is bad"Its like how they expect you to let Benny live and Ceaser ends up doing your dirty work. The fucker shot you in the head, I'm not going to let him get away.
>>3885249Letting people take shit that belongs to you and not defending yourself is not justice.
>>3885249There's not really a message with Benny though. His death is just not necessary, his only relevance is having stolen the chip from you, whether he lives or dies once it's back in your hands doesn't matter to anyone but you.
I think they got some criticism, said it myself years ago, that Fallout is scared of handling religion. So they tried, earnestly, but were unable to engage with the subject, due to not understanding how religion interacts with survival, and created the most boring DLC imaginable, though it's still better than Lonesome Road and the semiotic garbage.
>>3885249>Its like how they expect you to let Benny livehuh?whu?
>>3885266HH isn't about religion at all, really. The Mormonism is more to provide a set dressing for Graham's tendency towards wrath and Daniel's saviorism towards the Sorrows. The DLC a commentary on Mormonism in the slightest.
>>3885291*isn't a
>>3885256>His death is just not necessaryokay batman.
>>3885289If your a dumbass when you meet benny at the casino you can act like a dumbass and let him go, after which he sends a bunch of goons to kill you, then winds up crucified by ceaser when Benny brings Ceaser the chip.
>>3885266I think I recall a post to the effect of: Fallout being post apocalyptic yet somehow atheist and post-racial.If you don't think Race or Religion are going to be involved in the end of the world, your delusional.
>>3885220They were definitely scared to write and design New Canaan. Instead, we got a half-assed playground with stuff to shoot. The father in the cave was really well written but thats the only highlight. They could've done better and more.>>3885266>Fallout is scared of handling religionAbsolutely, they could and should. Religion is an important aspect of societt and even more so in a post-apocalyptic scenario.We know of the cult of Mars, Dharma and Vault pantheon in the Arroyo tribe but Fallout barely touch these when they add so much more to the world building.Even the place of Abrahimic religions, that was a missed opportunity. They could do more and instead, its very surface level. This DLC had a big problem about innocence and how they could write on it but its also the issue when you build your game and design quest to balance things. Daniel being presented as a choice because of the non-violence insists upon itself, the writers were more pre-occupied by balancing the choices instead of giving an experience.I think Daniel could've added more to the story, but his role is only to be a foil to the wrath of Graham.
>>3885300same with gender.Fo1 and Fo2 treat men and women as equals. they are female raiders, soldiers, leaders and so on in-spite of the scarcity of the setting. Fo2 only draws attention to this in regards to its sex jokes.NV is the first game in the franchise that actually has in-universe sexism and draws attention to physical gender differences.The whole franchise does downplay religion, race and gender maybe because those are complex and frequently uncomfortable topics to tackle.
That was intentional.>Presenting the conflict with Daniel posed some challenges because Daniel is not a living legend, i.e. he is even more of a normal man than Joshua is trying to be. Additionally, Mormonism is not a pacifistic religion (and its soteriology does not depend on pacifism), so the conflict could not reasonably by framed around violence vs. non-violence even in the post-apocalyptic version followed by the New Canaanites. Daniel's concern was about larger issues than fighting or not-fighting; he was concerned that Joshua's lapsed nature would cause a whirlwind of warfare that would pull everyone far away New Canaanite traditions to the point where religion was virtually abandoned in favor of a war cult surrounding Joshua.>I knew that the large majority of people would side with Joshua rather than Daniel, but I thought it was important for Daniel's option to be in the game as it was.
>>3885321>Daniel's concern was about larger issues than fighting or not-fighting; he was concerned that Joshua's lapsed nature would cause a whirlwind of warfare that would pull everyone far away New Canaanite traditions to the point where religion was virtually abandoned in favor of a war cult surrounding Joshua.How strange, I did not get one bit of this impression from his character.
>>3885249It's called Christianity.
>>3885289>huh>whuGary!
>>3885323>>3885321you have a moral imperative to defend yourself, your people, and your land.
>>3885386Its not like an obligation you can just walk away from. If you let people take from you or harm you, they will continue to do so, if you let them harm the people you care about, they will use that as leverage against you, and if you do not defend your land, you will simply be moved on from every place. Sometimes you have to plant your feet in the ground and say, "Enough."
>>3885386hence why the best ending is fighting the white legs, but """sparing""" Salt-Upon-Wounds.Defend your clay, preserve Zion and save the caravan companyJoshua gets the chance to calm downTribals, while more warlike, have better mediation from a more calmed down GrahamDaniel is never happy anyway so whatever
>>3885324>It's called Christianity.Pretty crazy how Europe and its diaspora colonies were both largely ethnically homogeneous and Christian for many centuries, then all of a sudden, something happened in the "post-WW2 era" and then they were all flooded with "migrants". I just can't place my finger on what changed or why, or who might have been responsible, though.
>>3885220Mostly on purpose, they wrote that plot where he lies to that female companion you get. 45 pistol guy has no straightforward anti writing like that
>>3885220>Was Daniel intentionally written as an unlikeable cuntYes. He's whiny and sad in all of the endings, even the ones where you did everything according to his desires. He's meant to be a wimp you have to whip him into shape and Joshua is your device to do so. Him leading >The Sorrows is a good indicator that he's going to spend most of his time bitching and moaning. Definitely don't listen to retards like this >>3885249 who see that Fallout allows you to make poor choices and draw the conclusion that what that means is that any of those choices are encouraged, or presented as virtuous.And for everybody else, Christianity here was used only to showcase two different approaches to it, one vengeful and wrathful, what you'd find in the Old Testament, and one meek and pacifist- a sorry misunderstanding of the New Testament. All in all, it created one of the best, at the very least most memorable characters in RPG, so it's fine.
>>3885415>most memorable characters in RPGlmao
>>3885220Was it intentional on OP's part to make a ninth Fallout thread on this board? Dumbass could post some anime rpg if he wanted a new thread and ask his dumb question in any of the other eight.
>>3885432Yes, now suck my dick.
>>3885433It's faggot...
>>3885393The church was always the same people just ignored them in the past.
>>3885419an*You got a better one?
>>3885220given that sawyer was from mormon country, i always took joshua and daniel to be written as two opposite extremes of irl mormonism that he saw growing upyou got the bleeding heart whiny mormons in daniel, then the sooper srs constantly-quoting-the-bible spergs represented in joshua. both are completely taken by the whole "god" thing, but both are driven in almost opposite directions by it
>>3885299>your
>>3885299Yeah but that's not the expected outcome.
>According to Sawyer, Daniel was originally intended to be an Asian man, and his design reflected this for much of the add-on's development. However, at some point before the release build was finalized, the game files were changed to make Daniel's race Caucasian, which automatically flipped his face and skin data to match. Sawyer stated he was unaware of the change or the reasons for it until it was too late. In a post on Formspring, Sawyer voiced his frustration with this choice, believing that making both of the central characters (Daniel and Joshua Graham) white resulted in the story of Honest Hearts coming too close to the "white guys saving Native Americans" stereotype.
>>3885475>The church was always the same people just ignored them in the past.So when the church was at the height of its power, played a vital role in every aspect of society, controlled everyday life, had the power of life and death over blasphemers and heretics, and the population took the church seriously and attended dutifully, Christendom was homogeneous European and had strong borders defended by the state for hundreds of years.And you look at modernity, where most of the population is de facto atheist, the church has been subverted and weakened and mocked and ridiculed, the population of worshippers in most branches is in decline, governments have been replaced by a revolving door of weak puppets controlled through bribery and sexual blackmail on a certain island operated by the merchant caste, and said merchant caste floods every single European nation with the refuse of the third world... you look at this and say, "Yup, the church did this?"Fucking big brain on this one.
>>3885323I think Joshua's right. We should fight the White Legs. >{sigh} No. Why? {beat} Why? Haven't you seen enough of what's going on here to see that the Sorrows don't need to butcher the White Legs for a piece of land? >What Joshua wants is more than an attack. He wants a slaughter. And he needs more than you and the Dead Horses to do it. >The Sorrows can't be pushed into this. You and Joshua don't have the right to force them into it. Please, consider what I'm saying. Why are you so eager to evacuate Zion? You don't seem to be a pacifist.>There's an old saying that goes, "If you want peace, get ready for war." >You've got me figured half-right. I'll shoot dead any White Leg that tries to creep into this camp, but it's only to protect the Sorrows. >The Lord helps those who help themselves, but the Sorrows don't know how. Joshua and I do. Since I got them into this mess, I need to get them out. And you have the right to pull them off of their land? >I've already explained to them that we're leaving! They've accepted it! What is Joshua going to tell them about being a warrior? >What are you going to tell them about how to live with themselves after they got lost in the moment, killed someone who didn't {emph} deserve to die?>Or does that not matter? Is that just an acceptable consequence if it means holding on to this valley? >Maybe there is no place left in this world for mercy. But even if it tramples me into the dust, I will never accept it. And I will never condone it. >>3885415He's not a pacifist. He just doesn't want the Sorrows dragged into a war he believes is unnecessary. He wants their innocence preserved.
>>3885637That's still not about a war cult surrounding Joshua, this is about Daniel's noble savage fetishism
>>3885528Kek. Saving? They dragged one of the few pockets of peaceful civilization thats left in a world of constant war into their shit and ultimately tainted paradise by touching it because they couldnt help themself but mingle and their solution is either fully embracing their pets into warmongering genocide or fucking off with them to rule over them in peace. Both Joshua and Daniel are manipulative assholes. One is the school shooter and one the schemeing, guilt tripping basedboy. Best choice would be to just kill everyone aside from the sorrows.
>>3885646sawyer just hates whites
>>3885648It really do be like that though.
>>3885568The churchoids complained about oppression of the colonized and even about crusaders. Transportation back in the day was lot harder or they would be importing refugees too. They still managed to make niggers saints. Yeah, churd did it. Popes have been most notorious merchants like medicis and borgias, vatican still has connections with biggest banking families in the world. Epstein didn't flood shit. You people worship jews.
>>3885220Balance. Voice of reason. This shit is so ham fisted why are you asking? Either you're so fucking stupid you don't even have a GED, reading comprehension is just too extreme for you, or you're trolling. Maybe this is how you start discussions with your friends and family. "Hey fuckers can you believe Uncle Steve? Why does he go around touching weiners?". No one cares.
>>3885643It's right there in the ending, he just doesn't outright express it in those words.>Try as he might, he could not hold back the tribe's increasing militancy and reverence of Joshua Graham. >Demoralized, he returned to his family and Dead Horse Point. His failures haunted him for the rest of his days.
>>3885220I think it was an accident. Joshua is clearly a very bad influence on them.>>3885256It literally is necessary, if you're enough of a class act to let him live he tries to kill you for being such a doofus, then the game literally doesn't support you not killing him unless you're guzzling obscene amounts of drugs with a good combat build, then he has no lines crab walking to the front until legion respawns to kill him.>>3885324>He thinks when a guy with this nose says his organization upholds (((("Judeo")))Christian values it's a Christian organization.>>3885670>The church complained about crusadesYou... you're not kidding, this isn't some ragebait?
>>3885637>He's not a pacifist.I won't argue over semantics but he definitely personifies the, again, sorry misunderstanding of "Turn the other cheek". Which clearly never meant that when your lands are invaded you ought to give your aggressor what he wants and bail, God makes it plenty clear He doesn't want that for His people. Ultimately, it's just another way that Daniel is wrong.
>>3885220Probably an accident
>>3886027He's a Duty to Retreat guy. There are states in the US where you can't just shoot someone who threatens you or invades your home, you have to make an attempt to remove yourself from the situation first. And the Sorrows do have that option, they can just leave and live in safety somewhere else which makes a war unnecessary in Daniel's eyes. Graham is the Stand Your Ground guy.
>>3886064I wouldn't use the US (or any other) penal code to inform either my moral system or that within a post-apocalyptic game. Anyway you can see the dichotomy as a representation of the US justice system in different states, or of 2 common readings of The Bible. You decide which interpretation is sillier when taking into account the religious tone of the game.>And the Sorrows do have that option, they can just leave and live in safety somewhere else They don't, it's stated outright that they will be tracked down and eventually killed, conquered or assimilated. Even if they could run forever, they'll never be able to do that safely and without constant death and suffering.>makes a war unnecessary in Daniel's eyesHe's a stupid bleeding heart. Par for the course for the pseudo-Christian.
>>3885489you don't? do you not play RPGs?
>>3886149what a dimwit. maybe /vg/ is more your speed?
>>3886173flutter raisin come down butter proof less mulch dripping teeth.
>>3886107Exodus 22:2 is used to justify Duty to Retreat. It says you can kill an invader in the night, but you can't kill one during the day.>They don't, it's stated outright that they will be tracked down and eventually killed, conquered or assimilated. It states the exact opposite.>But they can't follow us east, not into the Grand Staircase. They don't know how to live off of the land. We head there, we can find some safety. And the ending>He spent his life evangelizing the beliefs of his people to a new generation of young men and women, as his ancestors had for centuries before him. >He was happy with his family, but for the rest of his life there were nights when he awoke with sadness to find he had been dreaming of Zion.>After the White Legs drove the Sorrows from Zion, they celebrated by destroying all traces of the valley's former inhabitants. They appealed to the Legion for assimilation, but were denied. Their failure to eradicate the New Canaanites in Grand Staircase and farther up the Colorado had not gone unnoticed. The White Legs made a half-hearted effort to find the New Canaanites, but were driven off by Dead Horses trained in the ways of Joshua Graham. The White Legs lost all hope of joining the Legion and disintegrated into a number of petty raiding bands, leaving Zion Valley a polluted cistern It's a happy ending, he's just sad that he lost Zion.
>>3886239>Exodus 22:2 is used to justify Duty to Retreat. It says you can kill an invader in the night, but you can't kill one during the day.This is exactly the type of misinterpretation a protestant is liable to do- not that I accuse you of doing that, it's more likely you asked an LLM to find a verse for you to justify your position and you haven't even bothered to check that it doesn't apply one iota. It has to do with being able to call someone to apprehend and punish the thief during the day, but at night having to use killing as a last resort. Not that it would ever apply for people trying to conquer your land.>The White Legs made a half-hearted effort to find the New Canaanites, but were driven off by Dead Horses trained in the ways of Joshua GrahamSo they still needed a warlike people to ensure their survival, and they could have very well been chased into the Grand Staircase if not for Joshua, gotcha.
>>3886244>So they still needed a warlike people to ensure their survival, and they could have very well been chased into the Grand Staircase if not for Joshua, gotcha.In which case their backs would be against the wall and self-defense would be justifiable in Daniel's eyes. Just not before.
>>3885419>>3886149He's talking about Joshua Graham, not Daniel
>>3885297>>3885746I never said you shouldn't kill him, killing him is justified and a good thing, but it's not necessary is the point. Him getting himself killed by the Legion without you really doing anything to cause that is proof enough.
>>3886467lol i know
The best thing about siding with Daniel is that Joshua shows up without 5000 HP of plot armor and you can kill him in one punch.
