For a long time people on this forum have attacked me any time I've talked about crpg's and immersive sims as if they were similar things. That there's a ton of overlap between the two in practice. I was told no, RPG's are about classes and math and that's it. And that this forum is about RPG's and NOT Imm Sims. Well Tim Cain, creator of Fallout and Arcanum, two massive crpg's says he's ALWAYS put immersive sim elements into his crpg's before it was even a term. Meaning that YES, they do overlap, they are NOT totally separate genres. Fallout, Arcanum, are perhaps more RPG's, but they do have imm sim elements. It's a continuum. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSF4xuEGgWsSo I will continue talking about imm sims and how great imm sims features are, and this is the right place to do so, and I was right.
>>3891694Shut the fuck up retard.
>>3891694immersive sim elements started with ultima 6 (an rpg)immersive sims remove the roleplaying elements (ultima underworld, deus ex)
>>3891694Tim Cain is literally a gay faggot nigger that has never made a good game.I don't care what this gay faggot says.
>>3891695>Shut the fuck up retard.>>3891699I know it hurts. But this takes the cuffs off. I'm now free to make threads on immersive sims.
>>3891700Most Imsims are RPGs sure fine. I don't really care.Tim Cain however is a nigger and has never made a good game. Deus Ex is an RPG but "Imsim" makes more sense as a lot of it's systems work regardless of your stats. It's different.Who cares?
>>3891702Mayhap you did not take note of this latest release
>>3891703No one took note of the Outer Worlds 2
>>3891695fpbp
>>3891705Ya I played the first one for a half hour and shut it off. The absolute most bland setting and story. Bad UI. Bad combat. I get they fill a niche currently in the market but holy fuck was it boring. Not open world. Not first and 3rd person (which isn't needed but if not, make up for it in other areas).
>>3891702deus ex is obviously both, and what most people call "rpg" is actually point and click, but there's also point and click games that are more rpg than rpgs.
>>3891703dogshit game
>>3891718I would say that yes Deus Ex is both. However it leans more into IMSIM than RPG. And most games that are commonly called Immersive Sims are that first and RPG as a secondary or tertiary genre.Dishonored, E.Y.E. Divine Cybermancy, System Shock 2, Prey, STALKER, Bioshock 1 & 2All of these games have this in common. RPG systems that aren't a major gameplay component of the game. They have mechanics that specifically operate outside of the world of stats and the stats/RPG leveling oftentimes play second fiddle to basic shooter mechanics or other non stat related mechanics.
immersive sims are like action rpgs. they are not rpgs, but they ripped some mechanics from them
>>3891801How would you describe a game where you need experience points to level up. There are skill trees that essentially force you into a class, or maybe a hybrid, because you just can’t select them all. However the class skills aren’t stat based. The skills you learn are action based. Like, freeze an opponent solid. Open a medium lvl locked door. Levitate. Invisibility. Etc. Semi like fallout 4. The gameplay is mostly immersive sim. Tacked on RPG elements but the skills aren’t math based.
>>3891834It depends on whether or not leveling these things impacts your ability to play the game significantly. Like, if I choose to not put my points into anything, how disadvantaged/advantaged am I by this? Does getting exp actually even change my character's stats in some discernable way or is it just the abilities? Is it normal leveling up (akin to DND/Wizardry/Elder Scrolls) or what does leveling up entail in this game outside of this class system? (SaGa has a lot of games where leveling is not normal and these are still RPGs despite the weirdness)If it's just upgrading abilities then I feel like it might not be an RPG, especially since these "class abilities" aren't doing anything that is effected by numbers.If the Class skills aren't functioning like normal RPG skills (math based) and the "class" is just picking stuff from trees then it sorta just sounds like a regular progression system that you'd see in any game nowadays. Loosely informed by RPG design but ultimately is not an RPG because these mechanics sound more like progression gating rather than any kind of specific RPG world/game design.If the skills specifically have some kind of learnable numbers that change the way things in the game react to your character doing things then maybe it could be argued that it is more of an RPG but I would need to play it to tell you what's what. For example, if the door opening skill was effected by normal stats my character has (like if I had 10 lockpicking/door opening or something already and I get the medium door opening class skill, will it let me open some large doors?) then it'd be more of an RPG but as it stands I would probably just place this in the Imsim or potentially even action game category.
>>3891694>For a long time people on this forum have attacked me any time I've talked about crpg's and immersive sims as if they were similar things.I will be your shield, OP, tis I swear
>>3891700One Cruelty Squad general coming right up!But it's not like moderation seems to care much what gets posted here, so go wild.
>>3891694>>3891700I stopped caring about what he has to say ever since I saw his Bafta-Presentation. >For a long time people on this forum have attacked me any time I've talked about crpg's and immersive sims as if they were similar things.I think people attacking you has more to do with you being mentally retarded.
people who argue about rpg genre terms are the biggest no life dweebs. no one cares you fucking autist.
>>3891862You’re asking some good questions. I need to sit down and think about some of these. I’m stuck half way between enjoying simulations and RPGs. I’m thinking experience will be mostly from doing quests. Maybe from killing enemies, but it might be quest based entirely. The game will be small in terms of map size, so quest based experience probably makes the most sense. I think leveling up will be tied in some way to your core stats of like, strength, Vitality, Mana, but I have to think that through. That progression is just so much fun I’ll have to include it. Right now the abilities will make the game easier to play. Like if you can freeze an NPC solid, you can now get passed them without raising alarms. But I don’t think the ability will ever be like “plus 30% chance to crit”. So in some sense you basically could choose to not pick abilities and still win. I think you could beat Diablo 2 without abilities if you really wanted to. (Not saying it’s a prime example of an RPG, I’m just rambling). I do think you’re right, action sim is more correct than RPG. However I’ll try to put some stats into the game somehow. Just to give it that real feel of progression and making the character feel stronger at level 10 than level 3, regardless of armor, abilities etc. I’m planning my next game, never designed an RPG Sim so I’m thinking this all through. I’ve got story, setting, various guilds, quests, just gotta figure out leveling up and classes. Trying to wrap my mind around sim gameplay mixed with classes.
>>3891694The word rpg stems from tabletop rpgs. So no you are completely wrong they sre primarily about the math. You also smell like an annoying normalfaggot, I hope people continue to bully you.
>>3892076This is a video game forum. Not a table top. Video Game RPGs have had sim elements nearly from the start as the OP documents well.
immersive sim is a design philosophy not a genre.
>>3892108>Video Game RPGs have had sim elements nearly from the start as the OP documents well.The OP doesn’t document shit. It repeats a YouTube grifter making an unfounded assertion with no evidence. One, the earliest mentioned game is Fallout from what, 97? Hardly “nearly from the start” of RPG vidya. Two, what are these “elements”, being able to use a rope or dynamite once or twice in Fallout? You’re an embarrassment.
>>3892112That’s an interesting comment. I’ll reflect on this. >>3892117Fallout was famous for having quests with multiple avenues to success that weren’t overtly programmed but instead were allowed based on the rules of the world. Immersive as fuck. Really laid the foundation for rpg’s like Skyrim.
All games have you play a role, whether that's the white pieces in chess or the commander in an RTS. What RPGs ought to give you is a wider platter of possibilities on what kinds of roles you can assume. I'd argue against the significance of the word roleplay if it's just between you firing an arrow or firing a magic bolt. Linear games with stats and talent trees are barely RPGs as you play the same role.Sandboxier games where you can choose to do various things have philosophical roleplay depth as you can play various roles, despite not necessarily even having a discernible player character.Unrelated to everything, Tim Cain is a fart-huffing nigger.Games are a void, an abstraction separate from reality defined by its rules and constraints. There are various ways to make it more immersive; be that a gripping story/narrative, which could likewise be achieved just by a book, or via increasing the depth of simulation which starts flooding your various sensory and strategic considerations the same way reality would. As cool as it would be to insist that games like Dwarf Fortress are peak immersive, the medium is a factor too and just some lame unreal engine walking simulator with no story or gameplay can be just as, if not more, immersive, but on a different axis.Tim Cain is a gay retard too, just for reference in case anyone forgot.
>>3892150>Fallout was famous for having quests with multiple avenues to success that weren’t overtly programmed but instead were allowed based on the rules of the world.You haven’t played Fallout.
>>3892154>some lame unreal engine walking simulator with no story or gameplay can be just as, if not more, immersive, but on a different axis.Hey, I loved Unreal Tournament.
>>3891694Immersive sim was meant to describe a design philosophy rather than an entire genre unto itself.
>>3892161Revese pickpocketing dynamite on an NPC to kill them is an example of emergent behavior.Likewise plying NPCs with alcohol to lower their perception to make stealing from them easier. It's not a total im sim, as Tim said in the video, but the elements were there.
>>3892325>Tim
Rpgs havne't been about stat sheets in a very long time
Before you niggers waste too much electricity on worthless blabbering, take note that RPG is a genre and ImmSim is not a separate genre at allIt's a design philosophyBut yeah, a lot of immsims are rpg-hybrids not surprising since pretty much 80% of games released today are rpg-hybridsalso I feel like this is a pasta from some other placeand I bet I could find it were I to try, I really don't care though
RPGs have been taken over by people who don't like RPGs and that still isn't enough for them. Now they try to tell you that RPGs weren't invented until Fallout came out.
>>3891816This. Skyrim is an Immersive Sim. It is not a good one but we don't define genre by quality.>>3891694>make a video called "What is an RPG?">talks about what he prefers in an RPG instead
>>3891695First post best post
>>3892590Skyrim is not an immersive sim. ImSims are design, not a genre to itself. Skyrim is an RPG that incorporates imsim principles.
>>3892325>Revese pickpocketing dynamite on an NPC to kill them is an example of emergent behavior.No, that's an example of abusing the nonexistent AI and gameplay oversights of isometric Fallouts. Just like selling to and stealing from party members instead of proper barter, killing NPCs by using super stimpacks and waiting for their health to drop, using alcohol on NPCs to steal from them with ease, etc. Essentially, it's no different from triggering monster infighting in Doom, except in Doom it is more fun and doesn't feel like you are cheesing an already pretty easy game.
>>3892623>Skyrim is an RPG that incorporates imsim principles.It really isn't an RPG. Immersive Sims are basically just a re-branding of ARPGs. Skyrim is primarily made to appeal to Immersive sim fans just the retarded ones. Is there even a turn based Immersive sim?
>>3892325Number of "quests with multiple avenues to success that weren't overtly programmed" named: zero
>>3892641Well right, it’s an Action RPG.
>>3892656Saving Tandi. Kill all the KhansStraight combat solution.Hard early-game, but possible.Negotiate with Garl Death-HandUse Speech to convince him to release Tandi.Requires decent Speech and dialogue choices.Pay a ransomBribe the Khans with caps.Simple but expensive early on.Threaten or intimidateCertain dialogue paths let you scare them off or pressure them.Sneak in and rescue herUse Sneak to enter the camp.Free Tandi without alerting the whole camp.Steal her outPick locks / avoid detection and walk her out.Can overlap with Sneak-focused builds.These weren’t all scripted. If a player knows the rules of the world they can use their own creativity to beat the quest.
>>3892665>These weren’t all scripted.They were all scripted.
>>3892667False. You don’t know what words mean, and that’s ok. But you’re wrong. And you’re so wrong I’m assuming you’re mentally retarded or trolling. So I’m done. But if others are interested Tim Cain has a video on the differences between coding and scripting.
>>3892669>Tim Cain has a video3/10 bait, you're not subtle.
>>3892670I’m sorry, I said I was done and pointed you to a video explaining how you are wrong, which you didn’t refute. Did you need more attention? Or why are you talking?
>>3892667They weren't though. The Cathedralite appearing from behind the bookshelf in the bassement was scripted. Sett's bodyguard leading you to the fridge was scripted. The bartender shooting a guy beating a girl in Junktown's bar was scripted. The solution to Tandi questline were not.
>>3891694Yeah Tim I'm just rushing to play Space Lesbians 87. I haven't seen you release the same game that every other studio has been releasing for the past decade, real groundbreaking stuff.
Thief is 0% RPG RPG elements are a wrapper on core gameplay, they can be removed or added to anything.
>>3892662There is a point where coffee just becomes coffee flavored milkshakes.
>>3892629>No, that's an example of abusing the nonexistent AI and gameplay oversights of isometric Fallouts.So emergent behavior, no different from climbing on walls using mines in Deus Ex.
>>3892860>climbing on walls using mines in Deus ExAlso an exploit, obviously not intended gameplay functionality of the LAM
>>3892667>>3892669You're both speaking in absolutes and both wrong.>Kill all the Khans>Straight combat solution.>Hard early-game, but possible.Correct, not scripted. You're using the game's systems to complete the quest.>Negotiate with Garl Death-Hand>Use Speech to convince him to release Tandi.>Requires decent Speech and dialogue choices.This is 100% scripted.>Pay a ransom>Bribe the Khans with caps.>Simple but expensive early on.This is also 100% scripted. It's not like Morrowind/Oblivion where you can pay any NPC to raise their disposition. It's not a system, it's a script.>Threaten or intimidate>Certain dialogue paths let you scare them off or pressure them.Scripted.>Sneak in and rescue her>Use Sneak to enter the camp.>Free Tandi without alerting the whole camp.Right, this is once again using the game's systems to succeed.>Steal her out>Pick locks / avoid detection and walk her out.>Can overlap with Sneak-focused builds.Once again, the use of systems.Which was Tim Cain's point to begin with. He doesn't make "immersive sims" but he makes RPGs with immersive sim elements because it makes for more role-playing possibilities.
>>3892863The whole purpose of "immersive reality" design is to allow for gameplay that's not intended. https://web.archive.org/web/19970618130832/http://www.lglass.com/p_info/dark/howdo.html>The common approach to this problem involves scripting a variety of object behaviors, so as to construct puzzles for the player to solve. This is fun up to a point, but it generally disallows the element of improvisation which is such an important part of an RPG's creative challenge. To unlock this potential in our games requires designing not just puzzles and quests, but interacting systems which the player can experiment with. These systems include things like the physics simulation and player movement, combat, magic, and skills, and our "Act/React" concept of object interaction. By setting up consistent rules for each such system, and designing interactions between them in a common-sense but controlled way, we end up with what is in essence one big system.>Because of the way this big system is constructed, it remains fairly manageable (so we can ship games as close to on time as ever happens in this business). But paradoxically, the connections between subsystems lead to interactions of interactions, and these multiply to the point where even we the designers don't fully understand the big system. This is the essence of the concept of "emergent behaviors," a notion we picked up from the fields of Artificial Life and Systems Analysis, and about which there's probably lists of Ph.D. theses as long as your arm.>This "emergent behaviors" business happens unintentionally in all sorts of projects, but if you're aware of it it's something that you can purposefully design for. We actually like it when our playtesters manage to defeat a problem in a way that we never thought of, despite the bugs it sometimes causes, because game-design-wise these emergent behaviors are like free money from heaven.
>>3892049If you want some music I can maybe compose for your game. I can also help write but I have never worked on games before. I can also talk game design and playtest but that's about the extent of my game design ability.
>>3891694Immersive simulators haven't really been possible before. They exist as an idea of principle, not in actual practice. The closest you can get are games like Skyrim or various themepark MMOs. But, again, those are not very simulationist. They are SHARPLY limited and confined to extremely pre-defined mechanics and plot.One of the primary reasons to be excited about the emergence and development of generative AI has been the promise of using it to procedurally and reactively generate simulationist fantasies as gaming experiences. I am not aware of any projects even hinting at beginning to try this. But as the technology matures, there will of course be such things. And that's when MMOs will finally crack their egg and emerge into maturity before completely dominating gaming design and market spaces. We've been saying goodbye to reality for more than a decade at this point, culturally. In fifteen years, the only people who leave their house to "do stuff" will be older Millennials and GenX entering retirement who were left behind in the cultural transition. A child has already been born who will spend their entire adulthood within a fantasy simulation.
>>3892108Documents??? That's not what the term means. That's not how that works. That's not how any of this works. At all. What the fuck.
>>3891694It’s simple:Ultima derived games have immersive sim elements (elderscrolls, Larian games)Infinity engine derived CRPGs don’t (owlcat, modern obsidian)
>>3894363I mean it's a long way off, and I'm not even sure what kind of music I want. I'm still forcing myself to finish my current game. A business game. I'm just taking free lofi songs to use on that one. Idk if that's the best choice, but I just expect people to listen to their own music on that one.
>>3891801>STALKERThis doesn't have any imsim elements at all, it's just a straight-up shootbang with some creative environmental hazards.
>>3894555It has more bread physics than Avowed
>>3894558Those are pointless as they don't really let you interact with the game world in any meaningful way, only clearly unintended exploits like picking up loot through walls.
>>3894561I know. I just think it’s funny.
>>3894501Just give me some ideas and I'll work with you. I have the free time to make music and I do just want to get into the game industry anyways.
