>>3901039
They are cool. I wanna make one.

>>3901039
Pokemon mainline combat (not the quality of the overall game) has more nuance than SMT/Persona/Dragon Quest Monsters - or arguably any other non-strategy Turn Based RPGs out there.

>>3901039
what about turn-cringe RPGs?

Turn unbiased rpgs need to change and need to be harder....

Autoscrolling dialogue text that moves slower than your reading speed

Unskippable cutscenes you’ve already seen (sometimes twice)

Backtracking to previous locations because a door is now magically unlocked

Spamming X / A / Confirm to melt trash encounters

Using ice magic on the fire boss (so clever!)

Using debuffs on a boss who buffs a lot

Not attacking when the boss is obviously ENRAGED, CHARGING, or GLOWING RED

Leveling up and buying gear that will be obsolete in 45 minutes

Random encounters every three steps while trying to solve a puzzle

Constant menuing and Inventory management where 90% of items are “might be useful later”

Side quests that are just “kill 10 of the thing you already kill nonstop”

New party member joins underleveled and naked

Escort missions where the NPC walks slower than your character’s idle animation

The game pretending choices matter (they do not)
The tutorial that lasts longer than most action games and arcade games

Realizing the hardest part wasn’t strategy it was patience

>>3901305
Just play the Sims. Seems like your kind of game

>>3901099
Not really? It's mostly just "hit the super effective button"
Sure there are lots of moves and pokemon which have different super effective buttons, but it's pretty reductive at the end of things.
And like 90% of all the backend stuff - items, abilities, IVs/EVs, etc. are just making the super effective button hit harder (the rest is mostly leftovers)

>>3901327
I like challenging action games not passive games

>>3901330
So you don't like rpg's then?

>>3901328
Play any difficulty romhack and you are gonna notice how wrong you are.

>>3901039
Vidya turn-based RPGs would be better if they abandoned the DnD baggage.
By this I mean stop with the fucking dice rolls for everything.

>>3901340
>Implying all RPGs are that bad
Yeah maybe you're right desu

>>3901039
The biggest problem with turn-based systems is that it's incredibly difficult to get a player fully engaged during boss fights which is why you see games incorporate some sort of action or minigame element to the combat. This is especially true for longer boss fights where you might see their Super Attack animation multiple times because their only primary way of affecting you is making number go up or down.

>>3901328
>Not really? It's mostly just "hit the super effective button"
So just like Persona/SMT with their "press turn system"?
Also IVs & EVs don't really matter.

>>3901039
TB RPGs would need to be strategic to work

>>3901039
Fallout is better than baulders gate
Nucom and nucom 2 are better than tactics orgre or final fantasy tactics

>>3901363
What do you mean by "fully engaged?"

>>3901420
he means he has adhd

>>3901342
Then it becomes a game of chess and everything is pre-determined many turns before it even actually ends.

>>3901403
Hello lmao lol

>>3901426
Nta
How did you arrive in that conclusion?

>>3901420
He means making meaningful choices and being challenged not watching long animations and waiting for your turn

>>3901099
Enchant Farm mogs pokemon. It is a qualitative leap the same way going from Fire Emblem to SRW is.

>>3901430
By playing pokemon

>>3901330
Well I have bad news no action games are challenging. Youre just button mashing whatever bullshit and killing random generic bad guys.
Easiest genre ever made

>>3901605
You must be thinking of action RPGs, or action jrpgs sure button mashing gets you through those but, not full fledged action games like fighting games, fps, shmups, etc
You're not getting through Gradius 3, ikaruga, final fight, or Doom maps with mindless button mashes lol

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>>3901460
>enchant farm shill has entered the chat
lmao.

>>3901048
Like what

>>3901305
>fire boss
Ujargh!

>>3901099
Pokemon is great because all of the enemies play by the same rules (aside from some impossible moveset oversites). it's really well designed as a PvP system, but the games are usually way too easy to warrant learning the complexities
I don't think anyone would disagree that smt has a much lower skill ceiling, just a way higher floor

>>3901099
1v1 turn based combat will never be good

>>3901707
Pokemon is 6v6. the ability to swap is where half the depth comes from

>>3901039
Being able to revive party members mid battle removes any sort of challenge. Same with using items mid battle. A challenging turn-based game would limit how much you can revive dead party members or not allow it at all and not allow the player to use items from their inventory.

>>3901420
What >>3901431 said. In many turn-based RPGs even the best ones you can get into fights where the enemy can't actually do anything meaningful against you, so most of the time your turns are just filler for damage and buff upkeep. The only way you can fuck up is if you zoom through menus or intentionally play badly, so the battle's already won the moment you entered it.

>>3901460
SRW is a leap from Fire Emblem? Seriously?
Also what does it mog in, even?

>>3901426
Chess isn't pre determined at all because you don't know what the opponent will do. That's where RNG belongs.

Plus, it should be different depending on what you got so far and what your build is.

>>3901363
>The biggest problem with turn-based systems is that it's incredibly difficult to get a player fully engaged during boss fights which is why you see games incorporate some sort of action or minigame element to the combat
Having QTE on a turn based jrpg is something that I've hated since it reduces your maximum potential damage/reduction via button press timings or something similar.

>>3902089
That's ultimately the point. It's to ensure battles are less deterministic, there's always the chance of you fucking up and dragging out a battle for more turns or losing a party member.

The only other way you can accomplish something like this is with elements of RNG. Stuff like critical hits or evasion or weighted attack patterns. But if you tune this high enough to actually affect fights people feel like it's bullshit, because you end up in situations where multiple crits take you down without much reaction or where an enemy uses the same attack multiple times in a row.

>>3902092
Personally, I'd let the stats and mechanics of the game do their work and not let a player's dexterity affect the outcome. If you're getting wrecked by an enemy easily, its most likely that you shouldn't be in that area yet.
It can get pretty tiresome to play a QTE based JRPG if it always stops you to do a QTE every attack you do. It makes battles unnecessarily longer. If you're traversing a dungeon, the whole dungeon traveling takes longer because of these.

>>3902073
You will always know what your opponent will do in a turn based rpg because it's a simple AI controlling it with moves you already know. In chess it's a human, but even then, it's the same concept because they will likely use a famous well tried strategy, and you only need to swap your defense strategy accordingly. Even if the AI has a thousand moves in its pool, it will keep using the ones it judges more effective unless it's programmed to use random moves constantly, but that will only make it easier.

>>3901705
I think in order to judge things fairly, you have to ignore both PvP pokemon as well as ROM hacks on either side and just look at the base games. And unfortunately pokemon is lacking a lot when it comess to that. You can really only look at some of the battle frontier (or equivalents) to give a satisfactory challenge, cause outside of that >>3901328 is right

>>3901744
I think this is a pretty stupid post, mostly in terms of just how broad the statement is. Item use can be done in so many different ways in different games that saying "yeah all items trivialize the game in every game" is not just reductionist, but honestly shows you being pretty ignorant of the genre.

>>3901744
That's only a problem in final fantasy with a convenient item that restores both max hp and mp with no downsides.

>>3901744
>Being able to revive party members mid battle removes any sort of challenge
It depends if the designer actually made it somewhat realistic (not 100% because revival is already unrealistic in the first place) by imposing consequences of doing so - for example making the revived character to become considerably weaker on repeated revivals, or even requiring sacrifices of another character.

>>3902224
>>3901744
no need to make the revived character weaker or gimped if the fight is actually challenging you wasted a turn doing a revival instead of attacking/healing/buffing/countering etc, so you should be at a big disadvantage already

if the battle is piss easy and your turns don't matter too much then that's a different issue altogether

>>3902306
Then a tanky character who can survive at 2 to 3 hits from any monster in the game makes every battle piss easy.

>>3902312
nah because AOE and CC exists, and scenarios where your other party members die and the tank can't successfuly revive everyone. Like a chain reaction you're always trying to heal or revive and can't go on offense, then you run outta resources and gg

>>3902323
A battle where every attack is AOE and one shots everyone in your party but the tank doesn't really sound playable to begin with unless you have a taunt skill or damage negation, but if you do have that then it's the same problem as before. The CC is fair, though.

>>3902188
>hyperbolic broad statement
Guaranteed (you)s, works every time

I think to fix a "problem" with turnbased rpgs is to either make every battle handcrafted or make the random encounters challenging like in the Etrian Odyssey games. A lot of jrpgs just make the random or roaming encounters mindless filler.

>>3902553
But how am I going to spend hours mindlessly grinding if every random encounter is a special challenge to overcome? I don't like that.

>>3901039
90% of them are content to just do the bare minimum

>>3901617
>You're not getting through Gradius 3, ikaruga, final fight, or Doom maps with mindless button mashes lol
Yes you are, you have infinite continues. If you decide to not use them, then it's basically a self imposed challenge. Which you can also do with turn based games.

>>3902561
That's the best part: you aren't. You are the problem with jarpigs and you need to be exiled from the genre in order for it to advance beyond the grindslop it has quickly become.
Go play Balatro or some shit.

>>3901305
Other than random encounters during puzzles none of these are really turn-based things, they're just things that happen in RPGs in general

>>3901621
>using windi to prove a point
i can show that pokemon is absolute dogshit too using shedinja solos any gym/e4 member that can't hit its weakness nigga
surprised no shitposter does that yet

>>3902553
Slay the Spire
Darkest Dungeon
Battle Brothers

These three are the most popular examples on what RPG devs should learn from to make meaningful encounters.

>>3902943
The fact that Shedinja can be easily countered with statuses, weathers, stealth rocks, or even stuff like the ability aftermath disprove your point as well, you are only exacerbating the fact that Gamefreak sucks at making good encounters.

>>3901605
Good post
Action games are basically turn based games with no interruptions to press whatever buttons you want

>>3902948
that implies windi has little to no counters and issues which is bullshit. she felt like one of the weaker character for postgame too thanks to long fights (imagine +6 double team its still not 100% eva) and can't equip heavier things
trying to say X game sucks with a gif where a gimmick character rapes encounters vs enemies that has 0 answer against them is bad

>>3902965
I didn't care nor did I checked the windi or whatever part of your silly enchant farm game, I was talking about "Pokemon is dogshit" part of your argument when your only reasoning is "Shedinja's wonder guard makes the game too easy"

Also why would you even assume that person is trying to say X game sucks, you're assuming too much about a poster who only replied with a pointless GIF with no argument

>>3902582
Gradius 3 has hard game overs no infinite continues sorry scrub you have never beaten a hard game in your life stick to braindead RPGs lol

>>3902944
>slop the spire
RNG bullshit fest
>darkest dungeon
RNG bullshit fest
>battle brothers
RNG bullshit fest
YAWN

>>3903082
>RNG Bullshit fest
Yes all the popular RPGs are basically a RNG simulators.
If you don't want RNG at all there is Into The Breach - but you lot won't like it at all either.

Besides, you cannot provide arguments or alternatives, so in conclusion, opinion disregarded.

>>3903082
Also I didn't mention that they are the pinnacle of RPGs that should be copied from top to bottom, it's just their encounter design are actually decent.

>>3901039
I like them. And I think they're good.

turd-based RPG are for retards and weebs

>>3901039
I love to have boss battle in the background playing while the party is there standing still and maybe doing iddle stuff.
Something about it makes me enjoy it.

>>3902092
>But if you tune this high enough to actually affect fights people feel like it's bullshit
D&D is about dice rolls, Dragon Quest's creator is a gambling man, winning and losing due to RNG is what you're signing up for when you play an RPG. You can prepare the best builds and strategies and still lose due to the enemy getting a crit, or you can be surprised by a battle way out of your league that you win due to a crit, and that uncertainty is part of the fun. Trying to appeal to people who don't like RPGs is why Final Fantasy is going to shit, I say embrace the RNG bullshit.

>>3901328
>It's mostly just "hit the super effective button"
That's an argument for tuning down the multiplier magnitude. It should be no more than 10% increments for super-effectivity and STAB.
But with that single number tweak, the rest of the original claim is still absolutely true: Pokémon does have a robust and sophisticated turn-based combat system for 1v1 matches.

>>3903320
>You can prepare the best builds and strategies and still lose due to the enemy getting a crit, or you can be surprised by a battle way out of your league that you win due to a crit
That just is not true for most RPGs. It's only true for certain shitty RPGs that specifically intend for everything to be random. This has long been understood as an issue in academic study of game design.
In essence, the more random the system is, the less agency the player has. The less agency the player has, the less of a game it is. The less of a game it is, the more of a manipulative addiction engine it is. It's why addicts still play League in spite of the algorithm intentionally optimizing matches to ensure a 50% win rate. Why? Because that's what maximizes the addiction response in the human brain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

Always remember, kids: profit motive poisons everything.

>>3903536
>This has long been understood as an issue in academic study of game design.
This sounds like made up bullshit like "artificial difficulty", where modern game designers and academical folks decided a certain class of games or a certain class of game design ideas are outdated or bad for no reason. If it's fun it's good. It's ok to take away player agency some times.
>Because that's what maximizes the addiction response in the human brain
AKA: it's so fun you keep coming back, but framed as a bad thing for some arbitrary reason

>>3903548
lol,
Lmao even

>>3903236
so action RPGs are more for smarter people?

>>3903536
What if player has information and agency of randomness?
It's not just 90% hit-chance. It's 100% dmg 100% hit-chance vs 225% dmg 50% hit-chance.
There is an agency and randomness.
"I need to risk to save HP and gold"
"I need to risk or I will lose"
"Riskier option has higher dmg output on average"
"I need something stable"
"225% dmg is an overkill 100% is enough"

I think they're overrated. They're fun but for some reason people REALLY have a strange affixiation to them like it will solve world hunger. Honestly though, we haven't had a turn based RPG in a while that's pure autism with stats and build variety. Would be neat to have.

>>3903560
How about if the randomness of all actions is clearly listed prior to taking those actions instead, so rather than pure RNG, you have informed RNG?
>Move with 50% hit chance is grayed out on this turn since pre-turn, it was calculated out to miss
>Moves with damage variance have their power levels specifically stated to include the variance for this specific round of combat, but they might change next turn
>The enemy will miss with his first attack for sure, but will hit with a high-roll 155% power super-effective hit after as a follow-up
>any stat modifications that occur during this round of combat manifest as a flat, cumulative effect which is easy to calculate and disregards standard floors/ceilings (e.g. an accuracy reducing attack applies to same-turn attacks as a 25% subtractive accuracy penalty which can ignore the "accuracy floor" of the move's base accuracy/2) but on subsequent turns, the effect resumes standard multiplicative effects

>>3903569
>How about if the randomness of all actions is clearly listed prior to taking those actions instead, so rather than pure RNG, you have informed RNG?
Always a bad idea. RNG to hit is almost always a terrible idea because humans are exceptionally terrible at probability and the law of large numbers. RNG only approaches the percentage with a very large sample size, which doesn't happen in a per encounter basis.

RNG is best used at turn or combat start and then give players room to adapt to the randomness.

>>3903560
It's not a binary black and white thing. It's a smooth gradient between extremes.

>>3903548
If you don't know the difference between enjoying a thing and being addicted to it, you need to first shut the fuck up and second think very long and hard about your life.

fallouts turn base combat is pretty cool

>>3904163
As funny as this meme is, I don't care about EVs at all. Team composition is more fun to theorycraft about.

>>3904163
Also the Pokemon anime would've been more fun if it touches on this overthinking side of battling.

>>3903548
>>Because that's what maximizes the addiction response in the human brain
>AKA: it's so fun you keep coming back, but framed as a bad thing
Bingo. Flimsy midwittery.

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>>3904196
Based low IQ anon who fails to recognize that addictiveness is usually paired with things that are awful so that you keep going back to shallow garbage rather than engaging with truly enjoyable experiences that don't explicitly prey upon your psyche.

>>3904165
The over thinking bullshit is all because of how extreme the type and stab multipliers are. If they were only like 10% or something then you could see actual gameplay instead of rock-paper-scissor gotcha bullshit.

>>3904197
Whatever you say lil bro

>>3901039
Historically, most of them are dogshit

>>3901039
the final fantasy series is correct to evolve into action-based combat

>>3904199
>rock-paper-scissor gotcha bullshit
So you just hate the elemental system. Got it.

>>3901460
>>3901621
Im gonna play Enchant Farm later I just need to play Kingsfield 1 and 2 and Moshimo series entries 1-500 first

>>3904203
idk about this but i do think the newer games (13 to 16, 7Rs and SoP) are much better than people wanna admit

>>3904203
I'm just glad they stopped doing ATB

>>3904199
>>3904226
I like Cassette Beasts' element system. You still do increased damage (though not nearly as much) to the right element and have STAB, but the main thing to consider is what other effects elements have on each other. You can use the interactions to do things like forcibly change your enemy's type, turn their AoEs into single target effects, lower their defences or inflict DoT. On the flip side if you get hit by something you're strong against you can get buffs like dealing reaction damage when hit in melee or improved defences.

Rpgs are forever

>>3903561
My opinion is that alot of modern ones have less depth than Neo TWEWY.

>>3901460
What the fuck is SRW?

>>3903082
You cant win when you get shit RNG? I am sorry you are shit at video games.

>>3904199
Having to out think your opponent isnt gameplay. Sad.

>>3907494
super robot wars

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>>3901039
I feel like the scale of combat is rarely even brought up. Instead of just making combat full action based or like fucking chess, people could try re-inventing the classic combat systems.

1. Is XCOM a turn based RPG?
2. I like turn based computer games because I can play them one handed.

>>3907923
XCOM is kind of a borderline RPG. It's a squad-based tactics game. But for the purposes of this thread I would argue it counts, as the very subtle differences aren't reflected much in the combat system.

>>3907590
Well? Go on.

>>3907590
>I feel like the scale of combat is rarely even brought up.
That's because RPGs typically have squad-sized tactical combat by default. You take on the role of a single character and view the world through their eyes, joining forces with a handful of other characters to adventure. You only reach higher tactical and strategic scale in the rare campaign actually designed for your character to advance in that direction.

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>>3908978
>XCOM is kind of a borderline RPG.
2026
I am forgotten

>>3908978
I think the difference is having an avatar character whose death results in a game over. most tactics games you play more of a commander role with disposable units

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>>3908998
No, I am not!

I think they hold the genre back, they're just too accessible.

We need a new form of turn-based that is more streamlined and dynamic.

>>3909216
I’d like devs to experiment with letting players choosing actions for multiple characters at the same time.

>>3908998
Not sure about >>3907923, but that's the one I was talking about.

>>3909231
Or queuing actions in advance so you can just watch the fight unfold, that would be so rewarding for players who can actually manage to predict how the rounds will go.

>>3901039
action is better and has way more replayability and longetivity, OoT or DMC hold up as a fun game way more than any turn-based

>>3908996
>That's because RPGs typically have squad-sized tactical combat by default.
The thing about the D&D style combat is closer to Platoon style despite the Squad size. A Squad style tactical combat would be like a dungeon crawler where everything is more close quarters.

>>3909288
I wonder if it could work like in Dominions, were the battle is AI-controlled but you can set formation and a list of orders before the fight.
>fighters hold position for a bit
>wizards cast all buffs
>archers target enemy wizards
>fighters charge

>>3901039
They are okay, but devs go too autistic on it sometimes.
The flow and pace of turn-based is awful even with modern tricks to help speed things up.

However if we're talking jrpg menu-masturbation with no movement/placement element involved; just straight up static targets and an order based on a stat..it's retarded, outdated and has been boring for almost 30 years now. It sucks fucking ASS.

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>>3909231
>>3909288
>>3909479

>>3909466
>The thing about the D&D style combat is closer to Platoon style despite the Squad size.
D&D combat comfortably supports both.
The salient point is that RPGs, due to their character-focused nature, reside solidly in the "TACTICAL" zone of that graph, which includes both platoon and squad-sized combat.

>>3909024
That's an accurate heuristic at the very least.

>>3909479
Isn't that just Unicorn Overlord?

>>3909600
D&D is derived from a fantasy expansion of Chainmail which is a war game. Games like Wizardry work on the idea of the team forming a battle plan and executing it at the same time. The idea is some actions are faster than others. The Conditional Turn Based System is supposed to fix the problem by letting you pick a character's action when they are ready but having slower actions affect future actions but comes with its own problems.

>>3909546
>RTwP
>Chad
Even if it had those options I wouldn't touch that shit with a 10-feet pole.

>>3909627
>D&D is derived from a fantasy expansion of Chainmail which is a war game.
Yeah and?
>Games like Wizardry work on the idea of the team forming a battle plan and executing it at the same time.
So?
Not really sure what relevant point you are trying to make here.
A round-based system or a CTB system are just different ways to organize turns. There's really nothing related to the scale of the battle. If anything I'd say the wizardry-style "issue orders to all units then watch a round play out" works better for larger scale tactics scenarios where you want to simulate some kind of delay between units receiving orders and acting on them. The CTB-style systems make more sense when you want to simulate each unit acting individually.

The D&D system basically does both, organizing the turns into rounds but then having each player make the decision and evaluate the outcome when their individual turn comes up. This works very well for a live tabletop small group scenario (typically squad-sized encounter scale)

>>3909638
A round is like 6 seconds. Look at the amount of bullshit someone can do in a single turn. Do you expect me to believe someone can open a bottle and drink all of its contents or less likely force feed it to someone else under 6 seconds and it takes the same amount of time to kick someone in the balls? I understand the abstraction but this is better suited for combat where the map is bigger.

>>3909904
>I understand the abstraction
Doesn't seem that way

>>3909947
The turn order never changes from the start of the encounter.

>>3909904
>I understand the abstraction
You say that, but then immediately ignore the "video game logic" abstraction in favor of "realism".

>>3909950
Yeah that's part of the abstraction.
It's a game built on abstractions that are vaguely analogous to real scenarios. It's not meant to be a hyper-realistic simulation, especially not D&D which is meant to be run by a human Dungeon Master and played by people at a table with dice, pencil, paper and maybe some cool-looking figurines.

>>3909951
>video game logic
You mean mechanics? Because people generally don't ask questions if there isn't a mechanic for it. For example, nobody asks about the weight of items if there is no mechanic for it; but if the inventory system is based on weight, people are going to be asking why a silk robe weights as much as a full plate of armor.

That is besides the point. I mean that the DnD combat feels more suited for a larger party system rather than 3-5 party system. The thing is it would be a bitch to do in tabletop.

>>3909638
Wasn't it from a ship combat game, hence the wonky ac system?

>>3909963
Your examples aren't really supporting your point very well. There isn't any inherent reason why a small-scale system needs to distinguish between a potion drink and ballkick, at least not for the sake of realism.

>>3909635
Seething for no reason.

>>3909971
>There isn't any inherent reason why a small-scale system needs to distinguish between a potion drink and ballkick,
It isn't about "need". It is about having a different angle to explore instead of going all everything needs to be real time action or RTwP.
>at least not for the sake of realism.
OK, now you are just switching points needlessly.

>>3909978
>It is about having a different angle to explore instead of going all everything needs to be real time action or RTwP.
Where the fuck did this come from?
This all follows from this comment >>3907590
We were talking about scale of combat.
You haven't made any point remotely related to exploring different angles of combat in an RPG.

>>3910001
If we are talking about large scale war games, we don't even show the health of individual soldiers because of nature of the scale of the battle. Underrail 2 is trying to expand on the gameplay of Underrail instead of just giving up turning it to full actionslop. It would be very easy to justify it too since you only control one character. The typical argument for going all full real time is very obvious:
>hurr durr it is a product of hardware limitations
>hurr durr turn base only makes sense if you are controlling multiple units and even then just have a gambit system

>>3907490
If your "depth" requires "reflexes" and precise button timings it doesn't really suit this discussion

>>3909216
There were attempts but kind of fell flat. For example gear tactics consolidated some enemy turns into one where the units all move together making it faster but they fucked it up trying to make it cinematic to the detriment of gameplay

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>>3901039
>>3901039
>Post your take and opinions about turn-based rpgs here.
They are w*men coded.

Whenever someone has the audacity to release an RPG which utilizes actual strategy and requires a functional brain to beat, then it gets shit on into oblivion. Cuz it filters femoids, who cannot get past the tutorial area.

The most popular """tactical""" RPG is just barely disguised JRPG with a grid (attack-heal-grind, oh my gosh that's so tactical).

>>3901039
I love them but 99% of them can't fucking balance for shit, too many useless options, too many braindead encounters, too many stat checks

>>3911313
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/pCVFTaID6yY