It's impressive how many RPG fangames are in active development in this autistic fandom, even in our little niche. There's no shortage of other content as well like music, art, animation, fanfics, shitposts etc. Is it just because Undertale attracts a lot of attention, or is there something inherent in the franchise that encourages fans to IMAGINE?
I used to post on starmen.net back way way back in the day, and while there were a lot of insufferable people there, there were also a ton of people that just liked creating stuff. I think Toby just took some of that feeling with him as he made his own stuff, and it encouraged other people to chase what they wanted to make.Then of course some of those creations inspired others and so on. A cascade of inspirations. I always wanted to write, but couldn't bring myself to try my hand until I saw you absolute mad lads at work.
>>3909896>I used to post on starmen.netBefore or after Undertale?
>>3909903Way before, since back in the early 2000's I think it was
>>3909894imma be real, the biggest push for UT/DR fanworks was probably toby actively pushing for people to make it cause he started off making earthbound fanworkwe jsut got lucky enough to have a sizable enough """sane""" group in the fandom to keep it alive enough to share our shit with eachother and i love that
If that guy who requested I draw Ceroba and an anon holding hands is still here, is there any particular pose you'd like me to draw them in? Because I'm having a bit of trouble thinking of one at the moment, and I may just have to resort to drawing them cuddling if I can't think of any other pose to have them holding hands in.
My thoughts in deltatraveler kills (Section 1):>Ruins monsters: the monsters face the same issue as Undertale where theyre pretty much willing to attack and kill a young human simply because the monsters want to go to the surface and massacre humanity, which inevitably proves that killing the asshole monsters before they massacre over 8 billion humans first is justified, its slightly worse in deltatraveler as theyre also attacking susie to death simply because she dared to defend the human, literally wont hesitate on bringing her down to 0 hp, so fuck them. Also, i know they begin to run away after two kills in one room, but like, it feels more like theyre having a bitch-made FAFO moment atp, not only do they continue to insist on not sparing you right away, but its also something that the bloodthirsty earthbound enemies and the asshole monsters in section 2 & 3 respectively, so its pretty clear that them running away isnt only because of fear but that they come off as spineless cowards who dont like it when the human theyre trying to beat to death fights back, thus, screw them>Napstablook: ok tbf he doesnt really do shit in deltatraveler, while in undertale he just chooses to attack frisk after they woke him up just because???, here napstablook actually backs off and only fights you on obliteration where you begin the fight fr and do the killing magic attack specifically to kill napstablook, soo yeah he's off the hook here. Wow, rare unjustified deltatraveler kill that has proper reasons to have the characters bitch about it, too bad susie cares more about kris killing a retarded snake on a cave than kris telling her to murder whats essentially a civilian after starting an unprompted fight with said civilian>Flowey: self explanatory lol, its understandable even without accounting for the characters' lack of knowledge about flowey's plans to eradicate humanity or flowey's cock and ball torture parties caused in over a gazillion timelines.
>>3909923My thoughts in deltatraveler kills (section 2):>Earthbound enemies: lol easiest kills to justify that not even a prosecutor would bother prosecuting the killer, a gorillion asshole insects who work for a giant evil world-destroying fetus? Who also block the path to a village while attacking anybody who gets in their ways? including the one kid whos supposed to save the world and thus theres no real reason to defend the fuckin buggers? And whose deaths would benefit the villagers from up ahead? plus, killing the retarded snake is like, FAFO (why tf would it go to an area filled with creatures and humans stronger than it is? Are they stupid? Atp it's just asking to get mauled) and also in-universe the fun gang couldnt have known it couldnt take a hit when the other creatures have way more hp than that.>Blue Blue cultists: remove the blue colour off their clothes and everybody would quickly understand why the characters' reactions to killing the cultists are overexaggerated, even without the knowledge of said cultists kidnapping children for sacrifices and shitting up nature by LITERALLY THROWING PAINT ONTO THE RIVER AND CAUSING IT TO TURN PURPLE, the one cultist that kris kills just started the fight because noelle dared to question him even through the fun gang begged him to not start the fight, deserved for being a moron and a harmful cultist lol>the cult leader: literally founded the entire thing, deserved>Porky: pacifist neutral exclusive, if you've played earthbound and mother 3, you'll understand why. Plus, even if it doesnt kill him, the EXP from the spider mech makes you stronger which will prep the fun gang for the rest of the dr chapters.>Ness and Paula: so like, they prevent you from coming back to kris' world (will doom the entire DR world to the roaring) and even try to kill you unless you say that you feel bad for killing the aggressive creatures and permanently disbanding the child-kidnapping polluting cultists by force???
>>3909926>ness and paula part 2: Like, in a self defense perspective you have every reason to defend yourself from this ambush, lmao, atp its more ness and paula being unreasonably retarded because why would you bet either world's fates when the most logical conclusion is to simply let them go and seal down the door forever? Its not even that big of a deal for them either because the fun gang just cleaned up the literal KKK-looking cultists and rescued paula first, like cmon why do this? Itd be as if that one comic where superman kicked the ass of a bunch of KKK guys had the public boo him because he hit their heads too hard or something
>>3909926>>3909927My thoughts on deltatraveler kills (section 3):>Feraldrakes: literally putting down a bunch of aggressive monsters who attack anybody in their ways lol, like cmon>rest of UF monsters: theyre an active danger to the rest of population and humanity, many of which are willingly doing this, like cmon, even through they can be convinced to change their ways and that fell frisk is coming down here as well, its gonna be like, what, 100 convinced monsters vs 15000+ aggressive monsters who wont hesitate in tearing humanity down if they could, so send fire, marine. Clear the way for frisk.>Royal guards: literal evil anti human organization, however...>Lesser dog and dogamy & dogaressa: It may seem like theyre good guys, especially with how guilttrippy lesser dog's fear can be to less hardened players, however, do consider that THEYRE ALSO IN THE LITERAL EVIL ANTI HUMAN ORGANIZATION, like seriously, even if they ACT nice, theyre willingly participating in human hunting and god knows what else the fell royal guard does, you cant even argue theyre possessed by the evil red sprite colour either because they got white sprites, meaning theyre in there out of their free will, so theres room for an alternative character interpretation outside of "lesser dog scared cus hes actually good boy :3333", theres a strong argument for lesser dog being scared not because he's afraid and shit like a good guy, but cus he's the sort of bitchmade spineless coward that shits their pants when they actually go to the frontlines, basically being outnumbered so he hides behind his shield, so really, its not as sad of a kill as the game wants you to believe.>Jerry: the literal definition of self-defense, he doesnt really have any reason to attack you when his target is fell sans>Underfell sans: a monster so evil and with a kill so justified that rynogg had to rush his character arc from the GG!UF series into deltatraveler simply because we kept saying that sans deserves it lol
>SOUL, circa 2015"It's called the TRUE pacifist route for a reason! This is how the world ought to be! We can all see a world of love and peace!">SOUL, circa 2026>>3909923>>3909926>>3909927
here is the deleted vod of the UTY dev's anniversary genocide run, and the rough summary of it - https://gofile.io/d/LNw02C
>>3909910What kind of insufferable were EB fags back then?I'm a fan of the games but that was after they became more mainstream
>>3909894>is there something inherent in the franchise that encourages fans to IMAGINE?Undertale is a kitchen sink fantasy setting, and is mostly a gente savvy comedy while going into drama or horror or very shitty romance now and then.You can do anything you can imagine there and it will fit, and choose how seriously you take it.Deltarune pushed this even further with the dark worlds.
>>3909916I'm late but your idea sounds lovely
>>3910012There were a lot of good people on there trying their hands at art and romhacks, but I'd say the thing that stuck out to me the most was self righteous behavior. The kind that it's hard to put into words if you never dealt with forums back in the day. Like people that wanted the feeling of being a part of something.
>>3910018You can do a lot of things, but you still have limits which, if you pass them, will make your work feel out of place in the setting. Whether that's going too hard into "epic fantasy battles" and turning it into a DBZ tier power wank, or going too far into the horror and making it bete noir edgelord shit.
>Well, Clover, it looks like you've lost.>Remember how, in the beginning when we first met, I told you that I'd be the one saving your progress for you with my save file?>That was part of our agreement- between a human who falls into the monster world, and me, your best friend.>If I reset again, who knows if you'd even make different choices. I’m not gonna sit around waiting for that, so… it's all over.>You'll die here.>It was good while it lasted. We eased each other's boredom for quite a while.>Well, Clover… it's been interesting.
>>3909923>>3909926>>3909927>>3909937>Itd be as if that one comic where superman kicked the ass of a bunch of KKK guys had the public boo him because he hit their heads too hard or somethingThe sad part is that if the literal KKK was there, even if they did nothing but stand around and LARP, the writer would likely bend backwards to justify killing them as an exception because they did a racism. Or maybe he wouldn't, and if so, props to him for being consistent, but I don't have my hopes up.>theres a strong argument for lesser dog being scared not because he's afraid and shit like a good guy, but cus he's the sort of bitchmade spineless coward that shits their pants when they actually go to the frontlines, basically being outnumbered so he hides behind his shield, so really, its not as sad of a kill as the game wants you to believe.This would be actually good writing, with monsters legitimately being hateful and acting tough but then crumbling when it gets real. It's in character for someone named "lesser dog" too since a lot of dogs are exactly like this.>Underfell sans: a monster so evil and with a kill so justified that rynogg had to rush his character arc from the GG!UF series into deltatraveler simply because we kept saying that sans deserves it lolWriters getting buttblasted by fans "misinterpreting" their works will never stop being amusing.1/2
>>3910047Deltatraveler is the very definition of a spoiled concept. Crossovers are common in fanfiction for a reason since they have unlimited potential and fanfiction doesn't care about copyright. So we have the main cast magically dimensionally travel to different franchises; it's unlimited potential. What to choose? If we're going for a gritty setting to test their morals, why not Fallout or LISA, where Susie would be oddly suited as a brash punk mutant who has to face amoral gangs? How about XCOM, where sparing alien invaders and their worshipful cult is more dubious but ensures some interesting scenarios? Or for a more surreal approach, why not the broken world of OFF where they uncover the consequences of purification? Screw it, you could go a happier route and just plop them into the middle of Equestria which would be both unique and bridge two large fandoms.>Nah, we'll just do Undertale twice and then the direct inspiration for Undertale>This simultaneously limits appeal to only UT/DR fans and also insults their intelligence by retelling the same story they're familiar with in a sloppy wayI swear a lot of Undertale fans are like cryptobros except instead of memecoins they latch onto bad fanfiction.>>3910034Like Tumblrites?2/2
>>3910048>Like Tumblrites?yeah thats a fair comparison, though the communities on forums were more closely connected than the modern "feed" style of social media today. I'm willing to bet a lot of people from starmen were there from the start of tumblr
I feel the link to all them fan grames should be in the OP
>>3910065that's usually seen as "general" behavior, and while /vrpg/ doesn't have the same anti general rules as /v/, that hasn't stopped jannies before
>>3910065My bad, here you gohttps://rentry.org/mtt-fangames
>>3910067I'm pretty sure playing videogames would be the opposite of a general, but then again, I don't use /vg/
>>3910069I'm just speaking in regards to the autism of people trying to act like these threads are a general because video game discussion is verboten
>>3910021Alright, assuming you're the original requester, I'll be going full speed ahead on that once I get the chance.
>>3910073yes, thank you sir
>>3910034Like people who act like elitists because they like a cult game?
>>3910086Only thank me once I've delivered.So, hopefully on/around the weekend, before I get shoved back into the torment nexus.
>>3910139
>>3910140Hm, I'm imagining this picture, but racter holding a human soul.
>>3910264what color soul does racter rock
>>3910357I forget, but pyro sort of looks like a red heart shaped object
>>3910264It should be the reverse, really. Red soul hand holding a tiny Racter.
>>3910140Oh, I'm also going to assume you want them wearing clothes during the whole c*ddling thing, so this'll still be sfw.
>>3910470that would be ideal
>>3909894where'd everybody go?
>>3910815I don't have much non spoilery content to share at the momentbut light world segment of chapter 2 is around 50% done, it ended up being a bit bigger than I expected but that's a good thingI wasn't going to originally add the sadie's house segment but it actually fit really well into what happenskinda dreading having to return to dark world after how smooth things are going in light world but I will see if I can get someone to design the puzzles for me because I'm having a lot of trouble and I tend to overcomplicate them
>>3910824I’m so glad you’re still working on this, I had a really good time with the first demo, I hope I can play the rest of chapter 2 when it’s finished
>>3910824Based, I look forward to future progress.>>3910815just a little lull in the energy. before long it will be thread time, and a shit ton of updates were dropped over the course of the last thread on top of the very active discussion.
>>3910824DRYanon, what's your view on using music from other franchises in your game? I think this is thematically very good music for Starlo, for example: https://youtu.be/WR7fwMM5cccThe obvious downside is that styles and leitmotifs might not match up, but eh you can pick and choose what works best.
>>3910824>I wasn't going to originally add the sadie's house segment but it actually fit really well into what happensBug basement confirmed
>>3910840I'll likely have to use some later, but I'll try to stick with using UTY/UT/DR tracks whenever possible (at least until someone makes a new track to replace these)I just won't use fanmade tracks without permission because that's just a can of worms
For the next time this thread devolves into screaming about lesbians, I learned a new word that I'd like to share with you all: "sapphic" refers to sexual attraction between two women. I encourage you to try using it in a sentence next time the thread gets derailed!
>>3910891I meant to say "sapphism" is the noun form of the word, not "sapphic" which is the adverb. Try to use either!
>>3910891Better idea, just call them "yuritards" and leave it at that.
>>3910891You're not gonna psyop us into liking yuri
>>3910895But you could call them sapphotards instead! Sappho was the Greek poet who wrote a lot of yurislop>>3910897I hate yuri but I love expanding anons' vocabulary
>>3910899Why would I make efforts for yuritards?
>>3910899>But you could call them sapphotards instead! Sappho was the Greek poet who wrote a lot of yurislopI'm aware, but "sappho-" doesn't sound as smooth leading into "-tard" as "yuri-" does.
i saw a martroba image and I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought I would
>>3910891Literally no one on this thread was talking about lesbians until you brought them up.
>>3910891I learned this word in my early twenties when I binged several magical girl shows, looked up online discussions about them, and was disappointed when much of it was circle-schlicking about sapphic overtones
>>3910906He's good...
>>3910891>devolvesWe were civilly expressing our dissatisfaction with overuse of sapphic romance in fiction. You can disagree with us but insulting us is not going to work.
>>3910916>We>Us>Us
Talk about something else already, this horse is long since dead.
Why is Riley bunny again?
Why is Racter bird again?
I tried imagining marty with an English accent in my shades of justice playthrough but I think the casual way she speaks throws me off of that
>>3909894I honestly don't even know why Undertale is so popular. It looks like shit. And the oh-so-memey dialogue snippets I've seen in screenshots look like the game is fucking insufferable. The experience looks like it must be just doomscrolling reddit for hours.Am I completely wrong somehow? What's so amazing about that game?
>>3910956>What's so amazing about that game?fun (if easy) gameplay, wacky characters, good music, schizobait lore and it was one of the first popular games to make good use of meta narrative elements, which I believe its what made Undertale so popular in the first place, nowdays it isn't that impressive since everyone and their mothers knows about the twists in Undertale
>>3910955Can't be done, it's not possible.
>>3910824the fan is a nice touch
>>3910955>>3910963Seras Victoria voice
>>3910949He is berd because I like Berd
>>3910947his gf is racist
>>3910968my faith in u just increased by 100 percent
>>3910972human racism is the best thing to happen to UTDR shipping since sliced bread
>>3910956you're misjudging a lot of the humor. its definitely light hearted and silly for a lot of it, but a big part of what captured people is how sincerely it expresses itself. its the difference between telling a joke then looking around the room looking for upvotes and pats on the back versus telling a joke because you wanted to share something you thought was really funny. the same goes for when it tries to be emotional. or unsettling. the actual moments may or may not land for you but it has an endearing quality with how it passes them off. then it does this across different routes that give you as player a significant amount of control over who lives or dies. Its a world that wants nothing more than for you to experience what it has to offer. then yellow came along and god its a fucking mess, but its a mess that feels like it tried to capture the sincere feelings the devs got from playing undertale. They didn't quite hit the target but they came close enough that it lives rent free in a lot of our heads talking about what could have been different.I know I kind of beat the point to death but that sincerity keeps it from feeling like "the reddit experience"
You know what could be fun, like a party game, but you play as some fan game player characters.Maybe have some secret extra characters too.
>>3911045What would the game be like? Mario Part with a UT skin, or something with UT-like gameplay?
>>3911060Maybe something like Warioware Mega party games where one or all players are pulled onto the minigame board while progressing through a main board.
>>3910891Yuri is great when not taken seriously, and when it’s not Noelle and Susie who have zero dynamic at all. As long as it’s not Tumblrized
>>3911045A lighthearted party game starring Undertale characters would be perfect. Even if it was just a modded version of a Mario Party game it would turn some heads, but you could throw in unique minigames as well. The main appeal is just the characters so having them talk and interact ought to be a focus. Think of a SFW version of SPNATI.
>>3911081Did you have AI write this trainwreck of a post?
>>3911084No but I can see why it looks like AI. I'm half-asleep and anything I write is going to be stilted and not have any creativity. Still, an Undertale Party game is a capital idea and if Toby was more of a Jew he would have made one already.
>>3911081>The main appeal is just the characters so having them talk and interact ought to be a focus.Make it into one of those Persona dancing games with character banter in between the stages.
>>3911081>Think of a SFW version of SPNATI...so poker night at the inventory?
>>3910955I always imagined her with a Midwest/Minnesota accent.
>>3911071ntayrt, but I’m so confused on why people here get pissed off about Suselle for pushing lesbianism or whatever (I also don’t know why zoomer channers are now against yuri compared to their older counterparts) and clap when Kris “cucks” Noelle, but when San “cucks” Asgore, it’s equivalent to jihad or something
>>3911171*Sansfuck
>>3911171>(I also don’t know why zoomer channers are now against yuri compared to their older counterparts)its called dyke fatigue, we talked about this in the previous thread>clap when Kris “cucks” Noelle, but when San “cucks” Asgore, it’s equivalent to jihad or somethingWe dislike Suselle, we'd rather have Susie x anyone else rather than Noelle, as for Sans, well he is an ugly bastard
>>3911171Sans takes the role of the ugly bastard, he's a fat rude asshole whose inserted himself into your life at the expense of everyone else around him, and does so taking pleasure from the fact that it makes your life worse. Asgore, meanwhile, is a good guy whose done literally nothing wrong and still gets loads of shit for it.Suselle, people hate, mainly because its poorly written and we're forced to sit through it. It sinking any ships involving the player or their self insert is a secondary concern. I'd go so far as to say that the reason people hate lesbian ships is because of Suselle, and not the other way around.And as the other anon said, fatigue is an issue. Suselle is hardly the first forced lesbian ship we've been forced to sit through.
>>3911171Partly reactionary backlash to obligatory queer relationships/feelings in the videogames, mostly because of Noelle throwing a monkey wrench into one of the Top 2 (and you could argue NOT 2) ships in the entire fandom. This shipping shit is serious and there had to be a non-zero amount of people that died over it. See: "Cuckelle' discourse.
Why don't you take this nonversation thatvhas nothing to do with fangames back to utg or the dogshit thread you posted over here where it belongs?
>>3911207nobody's ready to show off fangame progress (DRY dude said light world section's too spoilery) and it was 3 separate responses, calm your tits.
>>3911205>there had to be a non-zero amount of people that died over itYou're gonna have to elaborate on that one.
>>3911212I don't have evidence; I just know it to be true.
I wonder if this is the same nigger that constantly tries to troll /doe
>>3911207>>3911209for DRY2 i was ready to hammer away at shit like crazy at the start of the year, but then a friend said "hey lets play vintage story" and i kinda have to because im the only one in the group that likes blacksmithing/mining (the most important roles), so im pretty much forced into the HYPERBOLIC ANVIL CHAMBER for 10000 YEARSim still chipping away at things (more than i have been for the last few months...) but i can tell that the server's already winding down and dying. should be back in action by the end of the month, we dont do two servers in a row and i've truly got nothing else that interests me at the moment.
If we're talking about game progress, now that I've got another programmer on the team, Oldentale is moving along nicely. Even despite my hand being injured. Right now it seems like we should be able to implement a music system relatively soon. I'm still eager to recover so I can get back to programming and spriting though
>>3911230do you already have proper camera/collision system now?
>>3911171Suselle is a horrible romantic storyline that makes both characters worse and hogs up way too much screen time away from shit I actually wanna watch. And of course, you can't criticize it because that would be le homophobic, so we must always accept it no matter what. Kralsei was also shit but at least the game moved on from that.Sans cucking Asgore is a debasement of the two most beloved characters from Undertale (Sans and Toriel) that feels almost spiteful for their fans, plus shoving Asgore further into the pathetic persona he got after the neutral route. I called out Toriel not being as good as she appeared before most, but it still felt mean.
>>3911231no, I was gonna do that at the start of the year, but then i hurt my hand. I'll get on that as soon as my hand has recovered.
>>3911232I liked the influx of NTR porn though...
>>3911207It belongs here because it is a discussion about storytelling. If it makes the romantic stories that come out of here better, I'd say it's worth it.
>>3911207Isn't the most prevalent fangame of this place, DRY, centered around a romance? I think discussion about how those themes are explored within canon isn't off-topic. If anything that's a discussion we need to have, because the returning players from DR/UTY will have some expectations.
>>3911158Yes, but it's more similar to the open-source game with different selectable characters.>>3911171Suselle has a terrible dynamic besides the lesbianism. If you made Noelle a boy he would come across as a creep anyway. Kris, who happens to be written in a male way and embodies the issues of a teenage boy, has far better chemistry with either Susie or Noelle. Sans is butting himself into family drama due to Asgore not being over Toriel leaving him, and he causes more stress for Kris. Sans is not only a terrible father figure but he drags down Toriel's character by making her look shallow and a terrible mother.>>3911226As long as you're having fun anon. Could be worse; you could be playing Foxhole.
>>3911174>>3911177>>3911232Maybe a little unrelated, but how do you guys view Staroba then? It seems like anons here straight up don’t care about it and Starlo as an extension compared to most of the fanbase. Seems like Cerojin or Anonymous Male/Ceroba clearly wins here. But, Staroba doesn’t seem nearly as hated as Soriel
>>3911254I like staroba if it actually uses how starlo acts in the game and not the orbiter version some people headcanon. Ceroba needs someone who is willing to check her when she tries to be stupid and Starlo stood up to her more than once for the sake of others. He wouldn't stand by as she prepared the child murder 9000, but the problem is he wasn't ready to face her tard strength. some anons really don't like it regardless, but I feel like as long as its not a desperation pity fuck situation then there's a good dynamic. otherwise put starlo with I don't know, mooch? Dina?
>>3911254I really like the idea of Ceroba never loving again because her attachment to Chujin is just that strong, but I don't dislike Staroba. Starlo is a nice guy and him dating Ceroba doesn't come at the expense of anyone else.
>>3911238In my case, there isn't much to talk about with Suselle that isn't very surface level tropes. While Kriselle and Krusie(and Ralsusie for that matter) have a lot more going for them.
>>3911254Ceroba's love triangle is shockingly well written, considering the issues the writting had and the fact I normally hate love triangles.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGZtSGfPZPYStarlo dying managed to really pull my strings and make me feel sad, the same for Chujin's backstory.I think some of the reasons it works well is:>it doesn't take over the story, mostly a side thing>Starlo and Ceroba can still be rational and call each other out when they deserve it>Ceroba isn't shallow nor mean about it:>>she sticks with Chujin even after his death>>she doesn't pursue Starlo because they are too different after growing up, yet she still cares for him
>>3911259>mooch? Dina?Even mystery crotch Moray would be a good option lolThe real question is if there is anyone that fits well with Martlet. Even Dalv has the pink bear for him.
>>3911266why that would be me of course!but seriously I don't think there's a good match in either ut/y. The stories where an older clover falls underground are ironically the only time it feels like there's a match. Everyone elses energy just feels out of sync with her. maybe at best Chujin, but it would have to be an entire arc of her gaining the self confidence to challenge his world views
>>3911269and chujin would only maybe happen in a world where he didn't get with Ceroba. neither Martlet nor Chujin are the type for infidelity
>>3911266>>3911269while in uty it probably wouldn't work, there is potential for her and starlo in dry
>>3911269I agree, Chujin is the only one she had any kind of chemistry going on, but neither have the moral rot for cheating.To be fair, I can't think of a single good pair for her even if I look into all games, official and fan made.
>>3911269>why that would be me of course!words of truth
>>3911275I definitely have the gut feeling that it wouldn't happen in uty at least. Starlos a good guy (aside from still attacking clover, but who didn't) but I can't help but think that showy characters would be offputting to her. Its the same kind of feeling that makes me think she wouldn't get on well with papyrus, though I think she'd become friends with starlo more easily aside from the whole "jail" thing
>>3911266I feel like in an AU where Ceroba died instead of Chujin, Martlet would probably end up with him.
>>3911293Chujin probably would go the same path of "lovers to death" Ceroba took.
>>3911293I could see them getting closer, but then chujin pushing her away as he descends into this timelines version of chasing his dead wifes legacy, and only opening back up to her in a post pacifist setting where clover and martlet managed to save him from his own despair. Clover fighting him to a standstill like he did with ceroba, and martlet reminding him of the good in his heart leaving room for something to grow in the coming years
Hold on, I think El Bailador going all Latin Lover for Martlet would be funny.Still, he might be too over the top for her.
>>3911296>chasing his dead wifes legacycan't believe he is lowering his own IQ in her memory
>>3911296Maybe he's trying to resurrect Ceroba from the dead, and has her dead frozen in cryosleep so it won't turn to dust, Mr Freeze style. And his arc is having accept that she's dead.
>>3911297I love the artwork of the latin martlet dancing, and its a fun thought but yeah I feel like the over the top people would just throw her off and overwhelm her. I lean even more into the thought that chujin would have been a good match with how she took to trade work so well, but things that are "bombastic" she'd be extremely self conscious about and end up having a bad time.>oh E-el bailador? >He's um, nice sure but once he starts talking he kind of forgets you're there you know?>I also... don't know how to dance>trailing off, Martlet fidgets with her hands remembering standing on the dance floor not knowing what to do while El Bailador danced without her
>>3911301>>3911296this but replace kanako with ceroba
>>3911302there's a 50% chance that gift is a knuckle sandwich
>>3911266Were Martlet to ever find a romantic match it would probably be with a man who is earnest but also on the quiet and gentle side. Of all characters, other than Chujin, Dalv would come closest but even if it weren't for his existing crush he's too withdrawn for her. I think it's Martlet's personality more than anything else which makes her seen as a soulmate by the fandom but especially anons.
>>3911303He's got her preserved body wired up to the mechanical copy, and he just needs a soul to bring it to life.
>>3911301>>3911303this would be really fitting and still tie into the soul experimenting >"it's ok Martlet, I just need the right soul, someone pure, then everything will be better again!">Chujin himself accidentally cracks the container ceroba was put in before she turned to dust>her dust starts leaking out because after all, she's not alive anymore. just dust shaped in her memory.>"she's... dead, she has been all this time hasn't she
>>3911307or perhaps Martlet smashes the container while clover is barely hanging on against chujins wily machine, doing her best to show him that this madness needs to stop
>>3911305She's got a lot going for her as a character with a good balance of flaws and virtues that we can see over the different routes. Yellow messed up in a lot of ways, and it really dropped the ball in how few areas actually have talk dialogue with her but there's still a strong characterization.I think as well that Dalv would be too withdrawn. She's not a full on "I can fix her " situation" but she would do well with someone that could give her some amount of affirmation over time that would help that confidence grow (which continues to sound like Chujin the more we talk about it). or me, god I need the bird
>>3911307I feel like that last line might be better said by Martlet. Chujin is so busy typing away at his machines that he doesn't even acknowledge Martlet's question, and that's when she realizes he's lost it.There's a lot of potential for drama in this. Like Chujin could be manipulating Martlet to make her think that he's not going to hurt Clover, and this scene is when she loses trust in him. You could also have this rivalry between him and Starlo, where Starlo blames him for Ceroba's death, which infuriates Chujin, because in his heart he thinks so too.
>>3911310I could see that, and the last part you mentioned is really good. His spiral is fueled in part by self blame
>>3911311His spiral is fueled by nothing but grief, guilt, denial, and ego.
>>3911312>which infuriates Chujin, because in his heart he thinks so too.I'm going off of this idea. it feels like it suggests that deep down this was a source of that guilt
>>3911305>>3911309It's tricky to conceive someone good for the Mart.Dalv is too depressing, Ace is too sarcastic, Ceroba is too stern. They would ruin her mood.Ed is a bit brutish and El Bailador too over the top, too much for her. Mooch would be annoying.Moray and Starlo are better, but one is a bit too girly and bubbly and the other is a little too nerdy. Maybe Mo would be a good pair as long as he put effort into fixing his life. One could even write something about Martlet arresting him over a scam and them getting closer.The best archetypes for her are daddy types or confused young guys.
>>3911314Of course, but its guilt interacting with Chujin's obsessiveness and ego. If guilt is oxygen, then Chujin's obsession is the gasoline that makes it explode, and his ego is the spark. A different person with different traits would react differently to the same situation.
>>3911316>If guilt is oxygen, then Chujin's obsession is the gasoline that makes it explode, and his ego is the spark.that's pretty good
>>3911254I don't like it because it paints starlo as a loser who's had oneitis for ceroba since he was a kid and did nothing except wait for her husband to die
>>3911315>The best archetypes for her are daddy typesMartgore
>>3911319it only paints it that way if you write it that way. Thinking of how starlo is the one that helped kanako and starlo after chujin died, I like to think that after clovers death, he would pick himself up and force forward in order to help ceroba and martlet. thats the situation I could see one of the pairs growing closer during. Not the childhood crush anymore but a different bond.
>>3911297decibat would get so jealous
>>3911322I was thinking of that too, alongside Grillby.
>>3911303I like metal kanako a lot
>>3911322Asgore would be a terrible fit after clovers death. Martlet does fail her sense of justice in the pacifist route but it would be burning her alive from the inside the entire time>>3911327now this, we know very very little about grillby but just based on how he carries himself its at least plausible to consider.
I'm watching the hl2 documentary right now, and its very informative for me as a prospective game dev.Like one of them just mention having a chart with all of the game mechanics listed on each axis, and they would check to make sure there was an interaction for every possible combination of mechanics, like zombies throwing barrels, or feeding a grenade to a barnacle.This made me want to do something similar with all my narrative elements. List them like that and make sure they all have at least one connection.
>>3911266I'm of the belief that clover had more effect on Dalv compared to the rest of the cast given clover basically reintroduced him to society when he most likely would have swept and ate corn in traumatized solitude until he died
>>3911324problem is if you take the devs' shitty stream as canon he "still gets shy around ceroba often" which means he does still act like a dork with a childhood crush
>>3911336yes and if you take every interaction with her we see in game, especially how he bravely stands between her and clover in the end, you see that this was a case of retard shipper brain taking over. we've seen enough about his personality to know that even if he does harbor feeling for her, he doesn't let it impact his judgement at this point in his life.
>>3911331I'm mostly thinking about the fanon around Grillby, extrapolated from what we see and the archetype for bartender characters.
>>3911328metal Clover...
>>3911340yeah, I can definitely see that then. That type of archetype would be good for her. Someone with a certain amount of ethic that can carry their own weight, and maybe has a little room to prop her up when she's down. not someone she'd get co-dependent with in her worse moments, but someone that could nudge her with words of wisdom that would help her find her own strength. I really feel like Chujin would fit all of this if he didn't go off the deep end.
>>3911341nobody has designed metal clover because anyone who does dies because they have a heart attack from how cool it is
>>3911333Beware, if every option you can take alters the plot too much, things can get exponentially complicated. Probably the reason why games with meaningful choices and many endings aren't very common.
>>3911345I wasn't talking about changing the plot, I was talking about narrative connections between elements in the story. Like you have a running gag of characters throwing a shoe, and its always the exact same brown left shoe sprite, then later you meet a shoemaker with three legs that always sells shoes in sets of three, explaining why everyone always has a spare left shoe to throw. And the characters who don't are now conspicuously without a shoe to throw, meaning they must have a reason not to. Like they don't have real feet, or they once cheated at cards against the shoemaker, and now he refuses to make any shoes for them.
>>3911339the bottom line is that starlo deserves someone better
>>3911353Perhaps, and i'm all for him with Dina (who would probably give him hell if she found out he fought clover, let alone let him die), but I see Ceroba as someone with a lot of love to give if only someone can keep her from being retarded. If he could keep her tard strength in check I think he would still end up happy in that pairing.
>>3911341>>3911344wasn't there a reddit sprite comic where alphys made metal clover?
>>3911359I try not to linger there any longer than it takes to find new art, and those sprite comics are generally hell to read so I just skip past them.
So are we doing a /v/ thread today?
>>3911355>Dina after Starlo tells her what happened to Clover
>>3911372I'd have already made it but I'm trying to type something up first. Its not the most original but I want to hold myself to finishing.
>>3911375honestly her refusing to sell clover adult soda already speaks volumes about her compared to every other terribly irresponsible person underground.
>>3911372Well, it's already on /v/>>>/v/731027629
>>3910891Kanako....https://files.catbox.moe/uz6352.png
>>3911375I like the idea of literally everyone except the three people who were there saying "what the fuck is wrong with you, why did you let that happen" when the main trio report what happened to Clover. Dalv, the rest of the Feistyj Five, Starlo's family, everyone. Even Asgore gives off an aura of judgemental confusion when Ceroba and Martlet describe how they let this paragon of virtue just lay down and die.
>>3911384I don't think Asgore would, he'd be the one person who would see their fuck ups and blame himself for it. That's more in character I think
>>3911382I took a gamble, and now I feel like I'm on a list, or at least deserve to be on one. yuck
>>3911387>now I feel like I'm on a listyou've been on a list since the day you decided to browse the hacker known as 4ching
>>3911385Asgore knows what it's like to make terrible choices in a moment of emotional vulnerability, and he would be aware that he manufactured the circumstances that led to Clover's death. I can see him blaming himself for making things so dire that no one even tried to persuade him that Clover should be allowed to stay. But his greatest regret is letting his children make an irresponsible sacrifice. He's probably dreamed of what he could have done differently to prevent Asriel and Chara from doing what they did, to be there and tell them that the hope of peace between humans and monsters that they inspired was more important than a quick return to the surface. So if the UTY gang told him the whole truth and said that they let an innocent child die "because they thought it was the right thing to do", he probably wouldn't be infuriated - that's not in his nature - but he would feel like they were given the opportunity to save a young life that he wished he got for so long, and they squandered it.
>>3911379>responsibleIs she the best mom candidate for Clover?
>>3911382>double NTRWowee!
>>3910955never forget what they took from you
>>3910041i feel bad for this anon, I think I'm the only one here who got the reference. Honestly they are both more similar to each other than I expected, both placing heavy emphasis on justice and all. Light even looks like Clover, an it's interesting how his vision also gets obscured the more he kills.
>>3911081So like danganronpa v3's side mode where the characters have interactions with others from the other dgr games? That could work, crossover interactions for undertale and deltarune characters, what if it has the mechanic of that one mario party game where you can choose to partner up with a different character while youre playing as another so you get dialogue addressing said character youre playing as (like bowser inviting you to partner up while you play as bowser jr and viceversa)
>>3911938Clover having the same core personality in all three routes was definitely one of the most interesting part of the game.
Considering the very real possibility I might get whacked by the jannies for no reason again, I figure I'll bring this over here before it happens, regarding the party game ideas.
>>3912073that was some real gold right there
>>3912074Don't forget, you can make gold too
>>3912079I'm going to work on writing tomorrow morning, but I'm tempted by the dashing fellow in the corner telling me to figure out Racters pose
>>3909923>>3909926>>3909927>>3909937Yaknow, with how much hate deltatraveler i've been seein' lately, i find it strange that fangame still got so many supporters
>>3912073>whackedIt's Payne, dere he is, whack 'em!
>>3912114You know it's funny, I'm pretty sure shortly after you posted this my ability to post images was stripped again, because I thought of a color to make P4 Racter's outfit that didn't make him look like he was running around without pants on.
>>3912272>I thought of a color to make P4 Racter's outfit that didn't make him look like he was running around without pants on.Have you considered making him look like that anyway?
>>3912287Pretty sure you could use basic context clues for the answer to that question homie.Not to be mean.
>>3912288>Pretty sure you could use basic context clues for the answer to that question homie.Coward.
PartnersAnon reporting in. No update for my namesake yet, but I have a small thing to chew on: https://rentry.co/mmk7mkgtI wrote this is as a side-chapter for the main fic, intended to be read after chapter 13, but it should (mostly) work as a standalone. I can't quite escape the feeling that it needs a little something extra, but overall I'm happy with it, and it was nice to write in the short story format again. I'm still working on chapter 14, but don't expect anything soon; the holidays + covid really gave me a late start. Reposted from the /v/ thread.
>>3912294I thought it was an interesting read.
If humans and monsters had hybrid children, which would be the dominant genes for said hybrid species? Humans or monsters?
>>3912376Human because our genes are DETERMINED
>>3912376pokemon rules, if the mother is a human then a human mage is born, if the mother is a monster then the baby will be a boss monster
>>3912378>if the mother is a human then a human mage is bornI don't hate the idea, but does this suggest that clover had a monster somewhere far back in his ancestry?
>>3912382maybe? this is just an idea that has been throw around these threads before, I didn't think of Clover as a human mage despite him being able to shot magic bullets
>>3912378>>3912382Frisk can also create items out of thin air during the asriel fight, so maybe every human's ancestry has at least one or two monsters on them which means that the humans' magic potentials are dormant rather than gone
>>3912393More like every fallen human has a monster ancestor somewhere, unless you are implying that human mages where that common in the past
>>3912393>clovers magic awakens in different routes as he reaches the peak of his journey, a moment of judgement that defines his life and death>Frisks magic manifests through the backing of an entity that represents his trait ball game . the true power of frisks soul however is not determination, but the power to reach an ending, so through the power of a being whos goal is to reach an ending his magic gives him what he needs at the time he needs it most
>>3912395and so I ask, what would it take to bring out the others magic? I can't imagine integrity lived long enough to get that chance what with the axisination
>>3912376One gets all the dominant genes, while the other gets all the recessive...
>>3912396>Val's magic awakens when he faces his biggest fear>having a peaceful life, thus he challenges Asgore to avoid that fate>he still dies to Asgore even after awakening his magic
>>3912398ah fuck its undertale solid again
>>3912399>he dies because facing asgore to avoid that fate is still him running from his fears
>>3912402>Val's magic truly awakens in the pacifist route>He realizes how much he screwed his friends by giving cell a senzu bean>For the first time Val will fight for someone else, and not just to satisfy his desire for harder battles>Even if defeating the final boss means staying in the underground and living a "boring life" that is a challenge he is now willing to face
>>3912403oh fuck that's actually a really good way to work an actual battle into his trait
>>3912404>>3912403it could even be like in the undertale pacifist end where you can't actually lose. the fight is exciting at first, but as val accepts that he has no choice but to win for people other than himself, he gets up after a devastating blow. The battle slowly becomes less fun as he accepts the dreadfully peaceful life ahead of him with the monsters he fought into friendship.sounds kind of sappy considering what little we know of val but its a thought.
>>3912400WHEN YOU CAN'T EVEN SAY
>>3912394Well, human mages eventually die of old age and monsters are locked underground, so
Is anyone else gonna draw stuff about the party game?
>>3912435I will make a shitty doodle this week. I'm running off like 3 hours of sleep max and soothing my brain by thinking of the bird.
>>3912376Its entirely random.
>>3912378I really dislike the idea that all human mages and boss monsters are mixed race. I don't mind monster-human race mixing, quite the contrary I'm very in favor of it, but something about this rubs me the wrong way. Maybe its that it denies potential to both humans and monsters, making anything special they could do the result of hybridization, rather than unique racial traits. Or maybe its that it implies that human mages waged a war of genocide against their own parents.
>>3912451Well, being fair to human mages, even in the actual established lore, they aren't explicitly stated to have fought monsters, only to have assisted in ending the conflict by sealing monsters away.
>>3912451really makes me wonder what vile shit human mages were able to cast during the war, if frisk was able to deal nigh infinite amounts of damage with a gardening knife and an desire to kill and clover was able to fucking vaporize asgore without much effort what kind of reality breaking shit would an experienced human mage be able to muster
>>3912451what if the plot to seal the monsters underground was in a way formulated to save them. the ware was raging on, monsters were getting fucked, and going the barrier route would at least keep their families alive?
>>3912455It could go one of two directions. Either its video game hax, and they get god mode, speed hacks, instant kill weapons, and noclip; or they go full anime and get bankais.
>>3912457Still seems like a form of betrayal to me, especially if they had such power, and that was specifically not something normal humans could have.
>>3912461true but it would be more of a tragic angle for the mages themselves. Then there's the sorcerer route where they just had a monster somewhere way back in their bloodline and its up to chance and circumstances on whether that power awakens in any given generation, possibly not surfacing for hundreds of years
>>3912462>Then there's the sorcerer route where they just had a monster somewhere way back in their bloodline and its up to chance and circumstances on whether that power awakens in any given generation, possibly not surfacing for hundreds of yearsSomething about that still really bothers me.
>>3912463not a lot to go off of here, is it mostly that angle of people with a monster ancestry being connected to sealing the barrier? because we already have some of that in the anniversary stream (which can understandably be imagined away if need be). or is it more how it would connect the power of monsters and humans in some way?what if a monster human child simply had a higher chance of being a mage but potentially anyone can cook
>>3912468Personally, I like to think of human "magic" being an entirely separate phenomena from monster magic. Monster magic has physical particles, it can make bulltets and cast spells, like a conventional rpg. Human magic is more ethereal. Its the bending and breaking of reality to suit the user's will. Maybe humans could learn monster magic, but that would require special circumstances in the same way that a monster has to take a human's soul or be injected with shitloads of DT to get human powers.
>>3912437Consider: Multiple Birds
>>3912272>I thought of a color to make P4 Racter's outfit that didn't make him look like he was running around without pants on.I get this is probably the lead-in for a joke of some kind, but why not make the color like, purple or something?Anyway, what color did you have in mind?
>>3912477As I lay down, perhaps I will do just that.
>>3912476I can see where you're going, the barrier itself seems like more straightforward magic. But if you think of human magic as approaching the rules or concepts of the world in different ways then I think you could fit the barrier in that logic. I dont personally hate the sorcery approach, but there is a big difference in that monsters dont really have the "traits" for souls even if the characters themselves may be brave or filled with justice
>>3912479I was too unoriginal and already thought of the Red, Blue, Green and Yellow P1-4 scheme, since it looks good.Not actually a lead in to a joke of any kind eitherAs for Purple: I can't say I didn't consider it at all, but I more thought about that for a larger pallet for 8 simultaneous players with P5-8 being Purple, Cyan, Black, and White.The thing I came up with was using a more Cheddar toned yellow rather than a Lemony one since that's noticably more different than his feather colors.Also I was sort of figuring in >>3911045 since the actual selected player character and not just what you'd play as in a micro game would need a color palette.You know, so if like say, people wanted to do an All Riley round, it wouldn't get confusing since each Riley would have a different color palette.
>>3912481The barrier doesn't seem to be physical to me. It seems more like some kind of infinite distortion in space. Rather than a simple wall, its just an infinite expanse of white that you will never reach the end of.
>>3912482Maybe the players are represented as different color souls, and each minigame changes what their player character actually is.
>>3912483Or maybe it's like the way "casting spare" was implied to work in Undertale, and it's like a magical "wall" of the concept that you're not allowed to leave until peace can be attained?
>>3912484I feel like playing AS a Soul with little legs would be a good idea for a secret character, but I feel like that's less fun than getting to pick a character to represent yourself as outside of the minigame, or in it as convenient.
>>3912485I think the ending being the thing denied fits better, since only a sufficient amount of determination can overcome it, and determination is the power to reach an ending. And lets not forget you only see an ending after crossing it.
>>3912486Yeah, but you have less opportunities for minigames if you can only have 1 character to represent your player. You couldn't do that Racter minigame for example if you just wanted to do the all Rileys idea.
>>3912489Still can't post images, but like the point I was sort of trying to make is the thing you play as in rounds of microgames is arbitrary, but your chosen character represents you outside of them in the more general "Game" in total.Like say vid relatedhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vw3JDVzxuEQ
>>3912493Maybe it could be framed as the characters all playing games on TV Time. So your chosen player character sits on the couch controlling the game, while the minigame character depends on the minigame.
>>3912495That's along the lines I was thinking, or maybe with them as guests on Tenna's show.
>>3912497Man it must be time for me to head to bed, I completely blanked on that being exactly what you said.
>>3912498>>3912497It could be them behind family feud style podiums instead
what if racter absorbed the drunk racter-obsessed anon's soul?
>>3912534The drunk anon would furiously masturbate in Racter's body
>>3912543Huh, imagine being unable to stop another entity from using your own body to masturbate...Hmmm...
>>3912544Sounds horryfing, even more if the other entity can't feel your body the same way as you, so it keeps masturbating even after you have came and become too sensitive
>>3912546>so it keeps masturbating even after you have came and become too sensitiveThat's it, I'm drawing this.
>>3912544a day in the life of Kris
>>3912534Remember, the soul is (you). So technically that does happen when if he plays the game.
>>3912548I'm glad my ideas can help with the creation of more Oldentale porn, even if I'm not into Racter
>>3912534I mean the actual serious answer is Racter probably mostly being in control, losing some of his inhibitions and periodically one of his hands grabbing the other.
>>3912575I already had an idea for what to do to/for Racter, but this idea was simply too genius for me to ignore. I guess it doesn't help that I'm also super into overstimulation and penis milking too.
I sort of feel like this is a little disrespectful to the og drunk anon that in a moment of passion just wanted the oldentale developer to tell Racter he thought he was cool and hold hands with him.
>>3912703Eh, it shifted away from being that anon specifically to just being some other entity about here: >>3912546So it's probably fine.
I had the weirdest dream last night. I dreamt that Martlet killed Ceroba and kept inviting guests to her hourse for some reason. She tried to play it off like nothing happened, even when the guests were pointing out Ceroba's bloody corpse in the shower.This then segued into an Escape from Tarkov type of game but set in the midwest and during a zombie apocalypse. I played a psychopath who lived in a house and pretended to be friendly to get other players into my house to murder them. I had already done this a couple of times by the time my dream started, and one player was a coroner who correctly ascertained that one victim lying in the living room was in fact shot from inside and not from outside. I looked for opportunities to bump him off, but another woman came in and I couldn't figure out a way without exposing myself. After some time a group of Russians who spoke only Finnish for some reason wanted to come in. For some reason I didn't want to reveal that I spoke Finnish, so I gave them warnings in the form of English verbal commands and gunshots. They came in anyway and my "team" shot them. Then several dozen SWAT guys swarmed through and merc'd us. While I was in game over the admins spawned in a tornado that destroyed all structures in the map but looked "glitched" like it was from Paper Mario or something.
>>3912759
>>3912759aint dream logic the greatest
>>3912484>>3912486>>3912489So if playings as a Racter a Riley or maybe a clover are player characters you can pick what other ones should you be able to pick?What secret characters should there be?
>>3912805>What secret characters should there be?You already know the answer
>>3912805>What secret characters should there be?the one that should not be named
How tall exactly do you think Ceroba is compared to the average adult human male? I usually like to imagine her as being a decent bit taller, like a foot taller than average, but that's mostly just because of my own personal preferences.
>>3912817I go with 6'7'' for ceroba and 7'5'' for chujin but I wouldn't be against 7'6'' and 8' respectively even if that's a bit much for most anons
>>3912805Maybe Sans but you can't pick him if you're playing any of the Blue player slots, so he's always an AU version.
>>3912820you go with what?
>>3912816Anon no
>>3912828Just for that I'm bumping the minimum to 6'8''
>>3912831NTA, but the way people usually react to that "joke" has somehow caused it to actually be funny, if only because seeing people's negative reactions to the joke is funnier than the joke itself.
>>3912835I think with absurd humor like that, the punchline IS the reaction
>>3912817I always figured she was 7ft.
>>3912805Val and the Codester
>>3912805>>3912859The dorito soul has a small chance to replace Val or Riley when you select them
>>3912863mm dorito
>>3912831>picMartlet wore it better
>>3912872well yes, she's full of holiday cheer
>>3912811>>3912816Which one would win in a fight?
>>3912894Shu would shit his pants upon seeing Yogurt, since he looks like a Dreemur and Shu knows he has no chance against an actual boss monster so he is not even gonna try
>>3912902I thought his name is Yagi?
>>3912872Momlet....
>>3912902>Shu would shit his pants upon seeing Yogurt, I guess his Schwarz is the downside
>>3912918It is, but we don't say that name because the schizo has a word filter
>>3912923no, he searches the archives for the termthis thread is now marked
Before the Dark One comes, what kind of perfume would Martlet wear on a date?
I keep thinking about Cole and Kanako's color palette in DR:Y uploaded by tostemperor on gamejolt; they feel too monochrome (not black & white you spazzes) compared to DW designs we've seen before in Deltarune, and just in general. Like, it's yellow yellow yellow and pink pink pink and I feel like there could be more balance while still keeping those primary colors. Kris is described to be pretty blue in and out of universe but isn't drenched in the color, you know? Think that one artist with the Linkin Park edgy 'nako has a Darkworld Clover that adds some green to the design.That said, it's a minor complaint but I think it'd make them look less muddy or boring. The pink and yellow look is iconic though, pretty sure every other DR:Y take tries to incorporate the smiling cat bastard due to the coincidence.
>>3912938Birdseed or hummingbird sugarwater
>>3912942we talked about changing Cole's design and I suggested some color palettes, but most anon agreed to just keep the current designI do think Kanako's design is fine and doesn't need a different pallet tho
>>3912946Kanako's design is perfectly fine, but Cole really does need some kind of tweak. Every time I see his DW design I think his hair needs to be darker or something.
>>3912943Ever been to a gardening store, anon? That's not what a human would want to smell. Also, while Martlet is cheerful, it's the equivalent of dabbing ketchup behind your ear.
>>3912920that cocksucker better release that model soon
>>3912938burned wood?
>>3912956>>3912938>handy bird wife that smells like a woodshopplease, I need her
>>3912953Bullshit
>>3912942I like the monochrome
>>3912953A lot of humans wear fruit scented perfume
>>3912946Mmmh, Kanako legs
>>3912950probably a broken record by now, but the eye shadows also kind of bother me. Cole doesn't seem as reserved and quiet as Kris nor does he have ulterior motives (seemingly). Maybe its the moving thing giving him the eyeshadow of despair? Even then, the eye peeking out in the side profile doesn't feel right. Maybe if it was covered by hair instead?>>3912950It's probably the face? Since Kris doesn't have eyes and Cole's sprite is based off of it, adding eyes makes the face feel smaller.
>>3912981those sprites are outdated, latest update makes them brown instead of yellowalso it was asked if there could be hair covering the eye, but people thought it was too emo
>>3912981>Cole doesn't seem as reserved and quiet as Kris nor does he have ulterior motives (seemingly)from what I remember, wasn't it said that cole and the soul weren't completely seperate entities? or am I mixing up dry2 ideas.
>>3912981how is he so cool bros
Question for the devanons, do you also imagine sick ass edits of your characters when listening to music?
>>3912993All the time, specifically edits of the main antagonist in his final form soloing the rest of the cast
>>3912992he loves his childhood fox friend
>>3912938she was in a hurry to get ready for the date and used spray cheese on herself by accident
>>3912993I imagine entire scenes unfold as I listen to songs I choose as temp tracks
Don't think anyone pointed it out but I believe there are no new monsters in DR:Y1. The ones you find there can be found in UTY, I think.
>>3913023The closest we have is Melody but she isn't a monster
>>3913023there won't be any OC monsters in DRY1, though gizmo, sadie and kanako are pretty much OCs since they did not have any character development in UTYand of course there is melody >>3913032
>>3913001After Val gave him a senzu bean, and let him power up to full power, right?
>>3912923>>3912924You know you guys warned about this sort of thing but it didn't turn into anything I think maybe that asshole is more preoccupied with /v/ as a whole dying than his gay retard grudge against various groups of people he's mad at for playing videogames
>>3912923>>3912924>>3913048hey faggots, get a room or kill yourselves
So on a less retarded note, what about specifically a Sig designed Can of Coke as a secret character?
>>3913056would she have massive kanacans and be twice the height of every other character?
>>39130563 Liter of Koke should be a minigame, winner is the first to climb to the top.
>>3913060>>3913062Both compelling options
I wish sig was here :(OR I COULD FUCKING UPLOAD IMAGES FUCJ
>>3913077did you upload something naughty you rascal? I still don't understand why not use the catbox. SOMEONE is bound to take the risk and click on it.
>>3913079No I'm pretty sure I just have bad 4chan credit score in the new shitty ass system.
>>3913077>OR I COULD FUCKING UPLOAD IMAGES FUCJI'll post a Roba for you, here you goNo need to thank me, it's community service as far as I'm concerned
>>3913081ah, a saint!
I like tired roba if I ever draw her she would look fed up with life all the time
>>3913077i am always here anon
>>3913083Tired Roba best Roba
>>3913085Which option do you think is better, climb the koke, or play as the koke?
>>3913089play the koke, with a climb the zenith minigame of course
>>3913093Genius...
Honestly I'm still a little annoyed I can't draw concepts for this.
>>3913098catbox still exists
>>3913098I keep telling myself I'm going to draw something stupid or another. Catbox it, maybe it will encourage others to follow suit. did you do the first racter chase one?
>>3913099I understand that, however, this is an image board, basic features like attaching an image should just work and I shouldn't have to worry if for some random reason they decided to change the website and suddenly every vowel in my post is changed to an e.Or worry if I'll get banned for "avoiding posting restrictions".Hell, just give me an Oekaki applet so anything I'd want to post would have to be drawn which would filter out any sort of spam they're TOTALLY stopping.>>3913100Yes, and I wanted to post the gunpowder eating contest or try to show the application of like, the wall climbing mechanics from DR chapter 4 applied as a macro game.
>>3913103that's fair, well then I hope your image posting powers come back because honestly that last image made my night. the little doodles made me think of the ancient drawfags that we lost as this site started being stupid about OC. Honestly the entire thing we have going with the weekly threads feels like a portal to the good days.
>>3913106I cannot express, how much I would love to simply attach, an image.The Wild East diner, in a line with full plates of gun powder, and Clover Val fucking I don't know Big Koke and Yogurt shoveling it into their mouths Probably draw clover winning and Dina popping a party popper while everyone else looks disappointed or frustrated with losing.Clover fists raised above his head in victory with gunpowder spattered on his face.BUT THIS SHITTY ASS WEBSITE IS KEEPING ME DOWN AND THE BEST I CAN DO is try to put the image in your head, that's in mine instead of just using fucking ms paint it's so fucking annoying.And I don't want to have to open up anyone to having to start playing catbox roulette and bear witness to heinous gayness.
>>3913110>Probably draw clover winning and Dina popping a party popper while everyone else looks disappointed or frustrated with losing.I like this a lot, and while it would never happen, I'm imagining it in n64/playstation era graphics.I am also imagining the honeydew keeper having that head to the desk moment as the timer runs out
>>3913103>macro game
>>3913047of course
Dunno if people remember from last thread but I'm the anon who shared the story wip about Zartlet getting pulled into pacifist timeline. Since then I added more to it, sadly not as much as I wished but if someone's interested I can share what I got by now.
>>3913169i was the anon that encouraged you to post it before. i still haven't read it yet, but i saw the pastebin for it got deleted. you should post it in a rentry or something, i'll get around to checking it out soon enough
>>3913172Yeah, I set the pastebin to expire after a week because I wasn't sure, but I can set up a new one with the as of yet full thing if you wanna.
>>3911045The protagonist from Undertale Repent to Jesus should be another secret character
>>3913180What the fuck is this?
>>3913173do it, might as well right? i dont know if i'll read it straight away but i'll give my thoughts and feedback whenever i do
>>3913186Here you go anon. Sadly pastebin doesn't seem to allow things like italics and bold letters so some stuff I'm trying to convey might not come through as intended.https://pastebin.com/Q1Vz7mAv
>>3913182its exactly what it looks likehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q2goFYbNN8An Undertale mod that changes the game to make it a story about Christianity, and no, its not ironic in any way, it feels like playing one of those really preachy christian movies like God's Not DeadAlso instead of playing as Frisk you play as a human-spider hybrid girl for some reason (the reason being that this is the mod's creator Vtuber avatar)
>>3913081>>3913082FUCK YEEEEEEAAAAAAAH ROBAAAAAAASSSSSSS
>>3913255
>>3913257Roba when she sees a deranged asocial schizoid.
>>3913258my stupid chujin life
>>3913261okay Roba can i hug you now
>>3913312chujin wasn't asocial though, he had lots of friends and beloved in his community
>>3913361>he had lots of friendslike who?
>>3913362his sidechick
>>3913363list of Chujin's friends>His wife>His daughter>His employeenot making a good case here
>>3913198I might be in the minority bit reading the change list for this mod I was very disappointed that it didn't go nearly far enough. I wanted some unhinged "Sonic converts to Christianity" Deviantart shit but the actual religious changes in the mod seem very tepid, like it's just an excuse to remove the gay shit from the game. I want to see a hardcore evangelist Papyrus who preaches like the world is ending tomorrow, contrasted his cool, laid back youth pastor bro Sans. Theme the entirety of the game around all the characters being Christian (or about their lack of faith so they can be converted), make it the only thing they talk about most of the time. Make it a full-blown AU
>>3913367NTA just wanted to make a pun
>>3913362Dalv, of course.
would martlet want somebody who's just as much of a birdbrain as she is, or would she prefer somebody different?
>>3913397Martlet values honesty and integrity above all things. But she would prefer somebody who could keep her head straight.
>>3913373I think the modder did it like that because they wanted to show it as an undertale replacement for religious people who think undertale is satanic rather than as an actual christian themed au
>>3913198Triple kek. I suppose it was inevitable at some point but it still caught me by surprise. I agree with >>3913373 in that it should have been like MDickie's "The You Testament" since I have no hope regardless that it presents Christianity accurately nor for actually converting anyone. However doing that would need a creator as unhinged as MDickie, who is one in a million, or one with a healthy dose of irony who wouldn't make something like this in the first place.>>3913257Is this part of a set?>>3913397Someone who can tolerate her shenanigans but also who makes up for her shortcomings. I don't ship the two, but she has great chemistry with Clover/Cole despite the latter being mostly silent while Martlet talks only slightly less than the average woman.>>3913444People who already think that won't change their minds because of one crappy mod. I had a friend who entered into a literalist spiral and refused to indulge in even "The Lord of the Rings" or anything with any sort of magic no matter the portrayal. Props for the effort I guess.
>>3913379snowdin ip
>>3913454>MDickie's "The You Testament"I looked this up and the very first thing I found was a Vargskelethor video of it, which I think tells me all I need to know about the matter.
>>3913397>>3913403so...starlo after getting shit together in uty?
>>3913504>momlet and dadlowould clover survive
>>3913520Starlo is EXCLUSIVELY for Ceroba's sloppy seconds.
>>3913522Starlo deserves someone better
>>3913520are there any fics that do this pairingi'd write one myself but i honestly need to re-play UTY because its been so long
>>3913520cole did (kind of)
>>3913523mooch...
>>3913522
>>3913525from my playthrough, I got the impression he was more or less Cole's father figure in DRY1.
>>3913482oh he doesn't even get to its real highlightshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrqCpdQEPw4
Maybe it's weird to notice but that guy wasn't talking about the party game today or calling the people running this site slurs.
>>3913560Maybe they upgraded him to a full ban
>>3913565Aw, I liked the part where he was talking about fun game stuff.
>>3913560I miss him
>>3913565that would be genuinely disappointing, but it hasn't been all that long. Anon could just be busy
>>3913520I feel like if its after the events of the game, they'd have learned a lot of their lessons in stupidity if somehow clover was alive at all.
>>3913547less of a father figure to me and more of like he got used to their shenanigans
>>3913592NTA but both interpretations mesh well.
Just a quick update on the AnonxMartlet romance I'm writing. I'm making steady progress but at this rate it will be another week or two before it's ready to publish. It's been years since I've done any creative writing and while this has got the gears turning, I want to make sure you enjoy these ideas in text as much as I'm enjoying them in my head.
>>3913620I'm looking forward to it, and its good to hear that its got you working on something again
What if... Martlet, but Aqua from kingdom heart's outfit...Martqua
>>3913651I could see Martlet making a decent amount of the stupid choices Aqua makes, perfect fit.
I hope the Sadie discussion reference in DRY1 is more around that whole "I treat my siblings well because I got lucky with sentience" bit and not the "toss a bowl of goo in the basement for the drones."One is a nice bit of characterization with semi-dark undertone, the other is just kind of a bad joke.
>>3913752I kinda want spawnmother sadie though
>>3913752>there's a noise>"It's probably just my siblings working in the basement.">what>walk downstairs>it's a few realistic looking bugs doing normal shit>"Hi, Sadie!"
>>3913651What if Martlet...but in Goumang's outfit>>3913805I prefer the idea of them looking like Sadie clones but functionally are biological robots.
>>3913752So what is the agreed upon name for gamer cat? I see a lot of people calling him Byte but here we have Gizmo and Felix too
New Noelle edgekino game update dropped https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4ldP-rgydo
>>3913752this sadie kind of looks like a mouse desu
>>3913813This looks cropped. Sauce?Also, Martlet with talons is underrated. In UTY she wears work boots for practicality, but my headcanon for DRY1 is that she is self-conscious about her weird bird feet. I just think it's cute.
Is there any fandom for UTY in Japan?
>>3913953It is cropped, but not in the way you were expecting, I imagine.Source is the official artbook for Nine Sols.
>>3913955the lack of a japanese translation makes me think its very small.
>>3913963how would the general playbase react to our beloved ketsukane family
>>3913955There was an image posted on japanese twitter that basically tried to explain the plot of UTY, the image was in japanese but I don't remember much of it other than it comparing Roba to Undyne and Zartlet to Sans, I think some small japanese streamers also played or tried to play it in english>>3913963is there any fangame with a japanese translation? I've seen ones with chinese translations before, but japanese is notoriously hard to translate
>>3913961wait this isn't sneasel fanart???
>>3913961I still don't understand why so many more people like Goumang over Lady Ethereal, Lady Ethereal just has so much more going on.
>>3914000reminder most people don't play a game towards the end, hence why you see more art of characters that appear towards the first half before the later half of most games even if the later characters are betterI haven't played nine sols but I assume that is the case here based on how much I've seen of them
>>3914000Thighs + nopan
>>3914010>Thighs + nopanLady E's are bigger, and she's wearing even less, your argument is invalid.
>>3914017Its not, she has "more" but she doesnt have them like bird cat. I like both but theres a very strong appeal at play in the way Goumang sits, the clothing that actively doesnt cover her, her thigh power is stronger despite having less. A precision strike or erotic appeal if you will.
>>3914009Why would someone buy or start a game without finishing it??????
>>3914027More games to finish, got bored, game too hard. If you think that's bad, remember that most games people buy on steam they never play once.
>>3914027ever seen achievement stats? only 40% of the people that bought Elden Ring have the archivement for beating the second to last boss, only 40% of the players unlocked the first ending of Silksong, and only 53% of the people that played Undertale on playstation have the trophy for reaching the end of the COREMost games achievement stats look like that
>>3914020>the clothing that actively doesnt cover herThat only works if there's anything to actually be covered, and you can see that she doesn't have anything around where her actual bits would be, like with Jiequan.With Lady Ethereal on the other hand, we don't get a direct view of where her privates would be, which leaves things open to the imagination, which is hotter.Same with Ji, having clothing that actually covers the important areas is hotter than being able to see where they would be, but aren't.But hey, I don't have anything against people who are into null, to each their own.
loving philosophical debate on nopan going on right
>>3914050its on-topic i swear
>>3914053which UT fangame girl would be best suited for nopan?
>>3914054Most wear pants, so Ceroba because of the robe. More chance to flash someone, more thrills. More spice in the bedroom.
>>3914054Gardner.
>>3914056>No pan no thighs
>>3914054Luzma.
>>3914056>>3914060Who wins the nopan nothigh competition?
>>3914062Gardner because she wilingly shed hers.
>>3914062>>3914064is this a competition on who has less thighs or who more thighs?
>>3914064she merely adopted the nothigh, Luzma was born in it, molded by it
>>3914065who wears it better
>>3914066Which is why Gardner is more impressive - this was a willing decision, a proof of her determination to be free of such shackles of silk.Luzma never had to spiritually embrace it.
>>3914067Ghost tails can be stylized as hips and thighs, Gardener has nothing below her torso, just a rusty tube
>>3914070which is better?
>>3914070>can be stylized as hips and thighs>cosplaying as a true nopanHeh.
>>3914070>Gardener has nothing below her torso, just a rusty tubeworse, her hips were ripped off
>>3914071If you ask me, I think a ghost tail is better than a tube that could give you tetanus, even if I do think that Gardener has one of the coolest designs in UTY
>>3914074I don't think she ever had hips to begin with, from her blueprints it looks like originally she just had a longer tube
>>3914080ok, but imagine if guardner did have hips
>>3914088I don't have to imagine
>>3914091is that really all that cursed?
>>3914091imagine her with sexy feminine hips though
>>3914093adding legs to legless characters is always a bit cursed
>>3914096this would be the point where I post a sexy fanart of Guardener, but there is like only 10 fanarts of Guardener in total, so have this feminine machine instead, I imagine Guardener with legs like these
>>3914101you know what we have to ask for the next time Sig takes requests.
>>3914103you read my mind
How do fangame devs cope with this ever present asshole getting litigious towards any music even remotely related to Undertale?
>>3914113you dont make money off the fanproject, obviouslyif you really want to make money make your own original thing
>>3914114Didn't he get really litigious towards UTY's soundtrack being uploaded despite it not being monetized?
>>3914115toby: "do what thoust wilt"whoever this guy is:
>>3914117He's the CEO Materia Music, the publisher of Undertale and Deltarune's soundtracks.
>>3913961I will now play your game.>>3913892I liked the trailer for this. As far Noellebuse content goes this is pretty good. Giving Kris dialogue is an odd choice however.>>3914046Her parts are covered with feathers, so depending on cultural standards she might be deliberately immodest. Martlet wear jeans despite also being covered with feathers. One can chalk that up to most monsters, at least the humanoid ones, wearing clothes.>>3914117Toby Fox's evil alter ego. Around Temmie and Co. Toby is a chill artist, but at night he transforms into a litigious corporate yuppie.
>>3914128>Her parts are covered with feathers,Okay, based on you saying "I will now play your game", I'm going to assume you haven't played Nine Sols, so I'm going to have to be the one to break it to you here. Goumang is not a bird. She is a cat. She is a cat that has "wings". She does not have feathers on any part of her body, not even her "wings".
>>3914137shes still covered by her fur down there, and the way she is even when she flies around evokes the feeling of hiding in plain sight, she is possibly one of the top 5 masters of no-pan technique in existence.
>>3914137>>3914128To elaborate on this, Goumang is a part of a highly genetically modified subgroup of the species "Solarian", which are cats. We hear in-game that the subgroup she belongs to specifically modified themselves to be capable of reaching fruits on high trees, since the rest of their territory was so barren and lifeless that they had no other choice in order to actually obtain food. The genetic modifications aren't the wings and bird legs that she has, those are actually both prosthetic, the modifications just make them able to use those prosthetics.
>>3914140I think from the way her legs eggsplode, they are genetically modified to fit inside the prosthetics, common "theory" is that under the prosthetic it looks like that one black cat bowling ball girls muscles
>>3914138>shes still covered by her fur down there,You know having fur doesn't just make anything on your body completely invisible, right? This kind of logic would be like Sonic actually has his junk out 24/7, but it's just covered by fur so he doesn't need to wear pants.That's stupid, you can plainly see Goumang's crotch area in-game, just as you can with Jiequan, and you can plainly see that they both have nothing to hide, literally.
>>3914141>they are genetically modified to fit inside the prostheticsSort of, but they don't go that deep. We see the part where her her flesh connects to the prosthetic, and it's pretty high up. This also means that this directly contradicts the cut-content scene where her legs explode even more than they did in the final version of the game.
>>3914128>Around Temmie and Co. Toby is a chill artist, but at night he transforms into a litigious corporate yuppieFirst the annoying dog, then the radiation fox, now the evil corporate yuppie. How many split personalities does he have?
>>3914144Damn, how'd that happen? Did she pull a Kyle and land on them too hard?
>>3914137>>3914140>>3914144That's cool but disturbing. It's like "All Tomorrows" but with cute furry creatures.>>3914142It's cartoon logic. Yeah with a lot of real-life animals you can still see what sex they are, but not with all of them. Most media obviously won't depict that so instead they draw secondary or tertiary sexual characteristics to make it clear to the audience. It can be abstracted to the concept of humans needing to wear clothes due to being "hairless" and "naked," therefore animals don't need to wear clothes due to having fur or feathers. In a lot of cartoons they'll have a gag where an animal gets shaved and suddenly develops a sense of modesty. "Jakers! The Adventures of Piggley Winks" did this all the time with sheep.
the problem is a few important points, first fur can absolutely obscure things a little, but more importantly, they aren't going out of their way and drawing dicks and vaginas in that game. but the way she carries herself and moves her legs. she invokes the feeling that makes her prime eroticism. she sits in a way that keeps it just out of sight, she flies in a way that makes you feel like you "should be able to see it if you look at just the right moment". it doesn't matter what is actually drawn, because this is the actual power behind no-pan, and it enhances the power of thighs because the thighs are used in all of that teasing with how she moves them. she's one of the sexual wonders of the world. I think I should stop, but just know that her thighs are amazing in a different way.
>>3914150I don't know actually, they kinda just do that once you hit her enough.Interestingly enough, in the cut version of the scene, it seems to be her flesh that's exploding, not the metal parts. Then again, the cut version makes it seem much more like the metal is simply armor, and the actual legs are genuine, but we know in the final version that this isn't the case.Also worth pointing out is that this somehow isn't a fatal injury, and she actually survives being like this without treatment long enough to end up being consumed by what's basically the Flood at the end of the game.
>>3914158Maybe you secretly mastered the art of hokuto shinken
>>3914156I think she's alright, but Lady Ethereal's still better.In general.Alright, that's enough of that, unless anyone wants to keep talking weird biology or anything like that, and we somehow find a way to tie that back in to UTDR.
>>3914158Makes me kind of glad monsters don't have organs or blood. I'd hate to see something like this happen to one of the cute anthros I care about.
>>3914156>>3914162Well we could talk about the upcoming fangames can apply these anthro girl design philosophies to their characters.All this talk of thighs has got me thinking of Wiki
>>3914163>Makes me kind of glad monsters don't have organs or blood.>I'd hate to see something like this happen to one of the cute anthros I care about.Geez, I take it you aren't a fan of Susie then?
>>3914162I still think Martlet in Deltarune Yellow is self-conscious about her bird legs to the point nobody in town except Cole has seen them. When she goes swimming she wades in with her pants and boots.>>3914163Only reason they don't is because Undertale is a magical, E10+ world. Deltarune doesn't follow those restrictions.
>>3914151>It's like "All Tomorrows" but with cute furry creatures.Oh, you have no idea.>It's cartoon logic.Yeah, but my point was that it doesn't really make sense to use the argument of her wearing revealing clothing, when you can actually just look straight at where her junk would be and see that there's nothing there.By contrast, Lady Ethereal wearing just a towel when you first meet her is way hotter, because her bits actually would be covered by the towel, if they were depicted.As for Jiequan, he might actually not have a dick, he's modified his body so much that he has permanent tube holes in his torso, he may genuinely have removed his dick for a combat advantage.
>>3914163Honestly, I feel like having blood and guts is better for survivability, since that leaves something to actually heal and recover. I always kinda assumed that monsters being made of dust meant they behaved similar to how programs behave on the grid, where a relatively survivable injury for a normal human can leave them entirely derezzed.
>>3914168>Martlet in Deltarune Yellow is self-conscious about her bird legs...Why?Really, compared to how alien and abstract a lot of monsters can be, I don't see why Martlet would be self conscious about her appearance, especially in comparison to a monster like Gyftrot or something.
>>3914170I'm still big on the idea that injuries caused by pure accidents not caused by someone directly such as mechanical failure or something natural like lighting does less to a monster than it would a human, since it can't carry any killing intent. being the one benefit to the way their bodies are made
>>3914171because martlet already has self confidence issues in the first place probably
>>3914173Yeah, but that's for stuff like her own personal competence, we don't really see her being self-conscious about her physical form or anything like that, especially since it's not like bird monsters are even that uncommon in UTDR anyway.Maybe she'd have that same thing Berdly has about nipples or whatever, but I just don't see the legs thing here.
>>3914171>>3914172>>3914175She wears (mostly) the same outfit she has in Undertale Yellow, and while I understand it was a spriting concern, her jeans and workboots are a little more out of place in the hot climate. She's a cold-weather monster after all and constantly complains about the heat in the Dunes. I think it's fun to explain that away as her being shy about her bird legs, and wears human-style clothing to obscure them. You don't have to take the idea seriously if you don't want to.>>3914170What I liked about Undertale Yellow is that it showed physical deterioration on many of the monsters with their attacks growing weaker when they were hurt. This was a detail that the base game didn't have.>>3914169>By contrast, Lady Ethereal wearing just a towel when you first meet her is way hotterIt comes down to taste. Some people find the idea of bottomless women hot and making them anthro is a way of having them in a game without it being X-rated. That one 3D platformer with the bottomless furry woman comes to mind. Others find the context and innuendo in pinup to be more enticing I fall in this camp. Both require imagination to get anything out of it.
>>3914179>That one 3D platformer with the bottomless furry woman comes to mind.More accurately the bottomless furry woman who happens to be from a 3d platformer comes to mind.Honestly, I played that game, and it's just alright, I'd honestly say that no one would really be talking about it if it weren't for said furry woman.
>>3913651I'm not an artist, but in memory of the guy who died cursing the jannies I tried doodling it
>>3914166Recently not so much, but not because of that.
>>3914166susie is cool and all but I don't feel the level of obsession I do with the bird, and the bird already got an absolutely horrible death scene
>>3914170That seems to be the developer's intention, especially with how you can accidentally kill Toriel even when she's on half health. One has to wonder what a monster that did somehow survive something like that would look/
>>3914188>and the bird already got an absolutely horrible death sceneWouldn't have happened if she just took the damn serum by the time she encountered Clover for the second time in the dunes, frankly she deserved it for being stupid.
>>3914192flowey...
>>3914193Am I wrong?Zenith Martlet would've been exactly as powerful if she took the serum in Snowdin or the Dunes as she was on that rooftop, if she'd have just taken the damn thing instead of trying to just-talk someone who's been massacring people for hours by that point, she would've been a complete brick wall to Clover at that point, there's no way they would've been able to get past her.Instead, she waited around until everyone was already dead in order to use it, and by then it was already too late.She's dumb.
>>3914171There are a lot of guys who are self conscious about a little pudge around the waste or flab on their arms when people like Nikocado Avocado exist. A person being uglier than you doesn't automatically make you viewing yourself as ugly impossible.Alternatively, maybe she's just shy and showing that much skin is too much for her.
>>3914184>f the guy who died cursing the jannieWhat?
>>3914198The guy posting party game stuff that doesn't now
>>3914197Okay, but what about other bird monsters who have no issues showing off their legs, like Berdly, or that drunk bird lady at Grillby's, or that bird with the hotdog or whatever?>Alternatively, maybe she's just shy and showing that much skin is too much for her.I didn't take Martlet for having such Victorian tastes, but sure, why not.
>>3914202>t what about other bird monsters who have no issues showing off their legs, like Berdly, or that drunk bird lady at Grillby's, or that bird with the hotdog or whatever?None of them are insecure about their legs. Maybe Martlet has weird legs that she's insecure about, maybe someone made fun of them when she was little, maybe she has a bad habit of stubbing her toe and gets embarrassed by the scene she makes when doing it.>I didn't take Martlet for having such Victorian tastes, but sure, why not.There are people today who feel uncomfortable wearing shorts or short sleeve shirts.
>>3914196>Zenith Martlet would've been exactly as powerful if she took the serum in Snowdin or the Dunes as she was on that rooftop,would she have? or would she have instead succumbed to the serum because she wasn't acting fully inline with her beliefs? I fully believe monsters are a "mind over matter" type of being, and not trying to believe that there was a shred of good in humanity to the last could mean that she just turned into a puddle instead.
>>3914204>maybe she has a bad habit of stubbing her toe and gets embarrassed by the scene she makes when doing it.Actually, wait a minute, doesn't she work with carpentry or something? She did a lot of construction in UTY, maybe she's just wearing steel-toed boots or something like that.
>>3914204I am now thinking of this kind of Martlet, its cute. I am also remember the "martlet eats like a bird" discussion from last thread.
>>3914205I dunno, I think Clover drawing their gun on her the second she tried to talk them down probably should've given her the same mental state as on the rooftop, given that that exact same thing happens on said rooftop.
>>3914209she recognized that he was just a kid and that this situation was fucked up, which honestly when we look at how the underground handles children, that puts her second only to dina in "realizing we shouldn't treat children like adults"
>>3914207realistically she'd have to. She can't eat like a human on account of not having a human mouth. Likewise Kanako definitely has to lap up her drinks with her tongue, her mouth just isn't the right shape to drink like we do.
>>3914212yes but personally the bird
>>3914211>she recognized that he was just a kid and that this situation was fucked upBuddy, it doesn't matter if the kid's still in diapers, if they're gunning down people by the dozens, they deserve to die.
>>3914202>Okay, but what about other bird monsters who have no issues showing off their legs, like Berdly, or that drunk bird lady at Grillby's, or that bird with the hotdog or whatever?None of them are in Deltarune Yellow (which is the only setting I'm talking about; this headcanon doesn't necessarily apply to UTY). We don't know where Martlet comes from in the Deltarune universe but there aren't any other birds where she is now.>I didn't take Martlet for having such Victorian tastes, but sure, why not.Like the other anon said it could just be shyness. Or maybe she wants others to think she has human-like legs for any number of reasons. It's implied in DRY1 that she doesn't work inside the town but outside of it; maybe she works retail in a city of mostly humans and is self-conscious around them. This could also serve as part of her connection with Cole, since she understands how he must feel being almost the only human in a town of monsters.>>3914206>Actually, wait a minute, doesn't she work with carpentry or something? She did a lot of construction in UTY, maybe she's just wearing steel-toed boots or something like that.That is indeed exactly what she's wearing (maybe not steel-toed though, those would be cumbersome for flying). In UTY she wears practical clothing that keeps her warm. In DRY1, she still wears the same clothing despite having a completely different job that wouldn't need it (yes I know she still did handicrafts and built her own house, but that doesn't explain why she keeps wearing jeans and work boots when she's not doing any of that anymore).Whatever your justification is, it's cute for her to be self-conscious about the monstrous parts of her anatomy since she's among the more human-like monsters.
>>3914214no, they deserve a life away from all of this violence
>>3914216Mythological martlets have no legs. So maybe she comes from a family of birds with no legs and is insecure because she actually does have legs.
>>3914216>None of them are in Deltarune YellowYeah, but my point is that monster society and cultural standards seem pretty homogeneous, so I doubt monsters would have particularly varying standards for what body parts are and aren't okay to show off in public.>all of that other stuffLook, it's okay if you want her to have the boots for whatever reason, but this feels like a lot of hurdles to be jumping over to explain such a minor design detail. Why does Papyrus wear boots? He wears them because they're cool, no explanation required.
>>3914213You think Martlet eats worms?
>>3914217In pacifist, sure, but in genocide, they *are* the violence, and they deserve the violence they receive in return, and then some.
>>3914219if anything you're adding hurdles in a way no one would bother to think of. if she's self conscious about them that doesn't mean theres some society wide standard. she could have plenty of reasons.
>>3914221yes
>>3914223I dunno, I feel like "She's self conscious about her legs!"-"Okay, but why though?", is a pretty normal train of thought here. If you're going to draw attention to a detail like that, it has to actually make sense, or else it's just weird.
>>3914225because she already has self confidence issues like i said earlier. you waved it away but these things tie together really easily. Women in general are self conscious about a lot of little random things, this is pretty normal stuff.
>>3914226>you waved it away but these things tie together really easily.I didn't wave it away, I acknowledged it, and the fact that her confidence issues stem from her actual abilites, rather than superficial things like her appearance. Honestly, saying that because she has confidence issues with her actual capabilities inherently means she has issues with her appearance feels like a pretty shallow read of her character, she has more going on than just "self-confidence issues".
>>3914228yes and self confidence issues can cascade into self image issues, and your average woman in the first place very commonly has those little things that they have issues with on themselves.I also didn't say its inherrent I said they tie together really easily which makes a big difference. you are making this weird.
>>3914232You're the one saying her lack of confidence in her abilities would develop into a complex where she hides her legs from everyone's view 24/7, that seems weirder.
>>3914219The reason Papyrus wears boots helps to explain his character. Why does he wear the boots? Because they're cool, but more specifically they're part of his "battle body" from Halloween which makes him feel cooler and more important. They show that he is vain and immature but in an innocuous, fun-loving way, like a child playing pretend. Clothing is a big aspect of character design and you can analyze every character in Undertale the same way.Martlet already wears boots in DRY1, even though she really doesn't need to, and I'm coming up with reasons to help develop her character. Why does she wear jeans and boots? Part of it is due to her love for hands (or wings)-on crafts, which we see in UTY and certainly still exists in DRY1. However unlike in UTY there is no reason for her to stick with this outfit to the events of the game. Shyness or self-consciousness fits with her character and provides avenues to develop backstory or motivation for why those manifest in her. She's also more connected with humans than other DRY1 characters.>Honestly, saying that because she has confidence issues with her actual capabilities inherently means she has issues with her appearance feels like a pretty shallow read of her character, she has more going on than just "self-confidence issues".I agree with this. By no means is it the only thing going on. An unusual desire (for monsters at least) to wear clothes that make her legs look human-like can have any number of causes and it opens a lot of opportunities.This is inherently reading into something that doesn't already exist. Out-of-universe, the reason she keeps the boots is "it makes spriting her easier." Out-of-universe, my whole motivation for coming up with an explanation is "I find it amusing and endearing for a monster girl to behave like that." We just don't have to stop there.
>>3914235maybe Martlet works in construction
>>3914233no anon, you're definitely making this weird. that anons idea was cute and its not near as absurd as you're trying to make it sound. it doesn't even really need much justification
>>3914235>Martlet already wears boots in DRY1, even though she really doesn't need to, and I'm coming up with reasons to help develop her character.Yeah, but it feels like a pretty big leap to go from "this character has self-confidence issues" to "this character has mental problems that make them hide their legs forever", all because she wears boots in a slightly out of place context for them.Even though she works with carpentry.This is the equivalent of BBC Sherlock logic at this point, Martlet wearing boots doesn't mean she's got something going on with her legs, that's a massive leap on your part. And it's one thing if you want her to have this trait for whatever personal reasons, fine, but that's absolutely not what you started with, you were arguing in-universe justifications and I was arguing on that same angle, and let's be real, there's no real in-universe reason she'd be like that, bird monsters in DR aren't remotely uncommon and there's no reason her legs would be some point of contention like that in the world of DR.Like I said, if you just like it that's whatever, but you're absolutely jumping through hoops here trying to find a way to justify it in-universe.Hell, now you got me writing these big blocks of text.
>>3914239>gifthis could be a Deltarune character
>>3914239you're being excessively weird about this.its very normal for us to come up with silly ideas and find justifications for it to play with the idea.
>>3914244Are you saying that some Deltarune character has Shlock-style mind reading powers, or that some Deltarune character jerked off into their coat pocket and fucked a dog?
>>3914248And critiquing any of those ideas for not making that much sense in-universe is weird?Fuckin' hell, and people here say Reddit's a hugbox.
>>3914249>or that some Deltarune character jerked off into their coat pocket and fucked a dog?this one.
>>3914249>>3914251and was dressed by their mother. Really I'd make a joke about Cole if Kanako weren't a fox.
>>3914250no you are just being really weird about it. you're acting as if this needs way more justification than it does. it comes across like you just personally aren't a fan of the idea and have spun it into way bigger of a deal than it should be
>>3914253Are you saying Cole beat off into their own coat pocket?
>>3914254You can go up and see how the reply chain started pal, they brought up the idea, I asked why that would be a thing, and then they started trying to justify it in-universe, and the argument continued from that angle.If they just said, "oh no reason, I just like it", it would've been whatever, but that's not what we were talking about. They were arguing about it from an in-universe perspective, and so was I, and I think it's pretty weird how hard they were arguing about it with those massive walls of text. Any further and this might've gotten into some Fallout: The Frontier territory.
>>3914239>>3914256My original post was >>3913953, where I came up with a headcanon because I thought it would be cute if Martlet was self-conscious about her talons around strangers. It was never intended to be very serious. I came up with some proposals as to how it could fit her story and character, and I apologize if they came across as half-assed. I spent the last hour and a half wrangling two off-site autists feuding over the stupidest thing and refusing to understand the other side.I'm still sure the idea could work considering how unique she is.>Even though she works with carpentry.She doesn't anymore and that's my point. In DRY1 she doesn't have time anymore to pursue her carpentry hobby and it isn't her job since her shirt suggests a service industry profession. It's an odd juxtaposition for her to keep wearing the same clothes which fueled that headcanon of mine.
>>3914255there's no telling what kind of debauchery horny teenagers get up to. Maybe he ran out of tissue and his socks were all in the wash, so he made do with the first thing he could grab in the dark, then realized in despair that it was his jacket
>>3914256>Any further and this might've gotten into some Fallout: The Frontier territory.this is what I'm talking about when I'm saying you're making this weird. what are you on about, you're making this something its really not
>>3914184You know chujin does kinda work like nort given his whole boss monster plan thing.
>>3914257Yeah, and I asked why that'd be a thing, and you started trying to rationalize it in-universe.Look, it doesn't matter anymore, do what you will, but let's not pretend this is the logically sound thing you're making it out to be.
>>3914260>making huge posts about why it makes total sense for a character to be weirdly self-conscious about her legs when nothing about her character has anything to do with thatNo, I think that's pretty weird. That's a weird thing to focus on. I mean, that's not too out of the ordinary for this place, but that's still pretty strange in and of itself.
>>3914261Eh, all the stuff Xehanort was up to was mostly a means to an end, not the end itself.
>>3914259I like to imagine he did it while still wearing the coat normally, it's more impressive that way, like how Murdoc uses a toilet stall.
>>3914263nta, but I don't think a person wearing concealing clothes because they're insecure about their body is far fetched. Loads of people do it. Its not like they're hiding some big secret either, they just feel uncomfortable in more revealing clothes.
>>3914267>like how Murdoc uses a toilet stallFrom Gorillaz?
>>3914268That by itself isn't too out there, sure, but I feel like applying it to Martlet like this, especially for something like this, just seems a bit off, and like I said earlier, connecting it to her already present confidence issues feels like a misreading of her character, since her lack of confidence is more complicated than I think that guy was making it out to be, since it lies more in her sense of what's right and wrong, her duty as a royal guard, as well as in her own capabilities, it's not as superficial as her appearance or anything.
>>3914263Do you remember the Sadie discussion where it started out theorizing how large Sadie could grow, and ended up with an in-universe justification for Sadie having countless non-sapient bug siblings and a whole Hollow Knight-style room filled with dead bugs? This is neither the most out-there speculation nor the weirdest.>>3914264I will be real with you, talons don't actually turn me on, though having human feet on anthro women is off-putting in general. What I like is Martlet's (or a similar character's) awkwardness and shyness, and having this be associated with part of her body allows for fanservice-type scenes while also allowing for humor. It could have been her beak, wings, boobs, whatever else instead, but talons make the most sense since we never see them except in her Zenith form, which is UTY-only.
>>3914272yeah, but her having some experience that caused her to develop self confidence issues specifically about her appearance isn't too far fetched either.
>>3914270Yeah, you ever see the MTV Cribs episode for them? There's a scene where Murdoc is pissing in a stall by pissing *over* the wall of the stall he's currently in and into the toilet in the next one.That's pretty impressive.Here's the video, it's a pretty good watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mL19xFGkIo
>>3914273I like the idea, but I also find the idea of her boots having a little perch in them funny. shes a silly bird
>>3914251>>3914253>>3914255>>3914259>>3914267there's an easy way to solve this>dressed by martlet (she knows what he likes to wear and he hasnt had the heart to say "maybe i want to grab my own clothes for today")>fucked da dawg (kanako, foxes are close enough)>has a fake-fur trinket in his cowboy vest to help satiate his infernal desire for fox fluff (same euphoria for him as getting off)
>>3914273>This is neither the most out-there speculation nor the weirdest.I know, and I recognized that in a previous post, but something not being the peak of the mountain doesn't mean it's not high up there.Like I said, it's kinda just whatever at this point.
>>3914279Probably should point out that the gif says "had first romantic encounter with a dog at age 9".Whoops.
>>3914283well romantic on its own doesnt mean sex.
>>3914272>>3914273>>3914281Oh, and for the last time I have to sleep the whole headcanon on my part is DRY1 exclusive. In UTY where Martlet has only ever known other monsters, I agree with you it doesn't make sense to be self-conscious about having bird claws. In the world of Deltarune, where Martlet could have had any amount of exposure to human society and, possibly, moved to the monster-filled town only shortly before adopting Cole, anything is possible. Also, she's not a royal guard, she probably works some dead-end retail job in the next town over, she doesn't seem to have had any time for carpentry since building her house, and she likely has all sorts of mental health issues simmering under the surface as she tries to maintain a good life for Cole. There is a lot more room to explore her character in this setting versus UTY which is why I'm not shy of taking creative liberties. I can IMAGINE her more innocuous issues cutely manifesting as another character tries to help her through them.
>>3914286I feel like the tone of the gif sets up some implications.Man, I just wish the gif was longer, it doesn't even include the "I think I'm reading his thoughts..." and "concealing a boner" parts.
>>3914287Eh, alright, fine. Just use the "Imagine" card the next time you need to imagine something, it's a get-out-of-autist-jail-free card.
To the guy who wanted Ceroba and an anon holding hands, which as previously discussed has now turned into a drawing of them cuddling while holding hands, I'm nearly finished with it, and I should be able to post all the finished requests by the weekend thread.I have also been watching Yu-Gi-Oh! while I draw, so that has been slowing me down a bit.
who up genosliding they the 'roba
>>3914314getcher new genosliders at arby's or wherever it is that sells sliders
I'm surprised nobody has come up with a schizo theory that Ace in UTY is secretly a human, considering we don't know what he looks like. In fact Mooch would be the only one who would know and she's his best friend.>inb4 he can't be because he uses magicMaybe he throws those fancy razor-edged playing cards. Anyway this never stopped schizos from saying Sans is a secret human.
>>3914373I just figured he was one of those black shadowy creatures you see in some fantasy things, like the black mage in Final Fantasy or something.
>>3914373>didn't use one of the obvious weapons related to the Fallen>inside a human-centric town, so hiding his identity would be next to impossible>no real reaction from neither Clover nor Flowey>no cryptic guidance>ceroba is actively searching SOULs yet has no interest/suspicion of himToo many incoherences.
Justice Resolves, the mod that adds Kanako as a companion, got an update.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g3y54-Z6g8
>>3914425why did they give sadie animal ears instead of bug antennae
Now that the thread is past bump limit, I can post this without feeling I'm wasting posts.I doubt an actual game will come out of this DRY take, and seeing what I am seeing from this artist doesn't give me much hope either, but as always, I will catalog and archive everything related to it (or any other fangames that interest me).I'm just conflicted because while there are some ideas, the execution feels "wrong" in some way to me. Maybe it is because it is another dime-a-dozen copying beats from DR without even knowing why Toby has set those up yet. Or just the whole lesbian Kanako thing (it does make me wonder why those sort of people are obsessed with them).Also I should know by now but reading the replies to the posts reminds me how low standards are for most people (or maybe bluesky users).
>>3914425Hm, it seems like they're writing the Ceroba's betrayal but with more chemistry, presumably to make it hurts more.Then again perhaps Kanako is indeed trying to fix her mother instead of going on a rampage.
>>3914302splendid
>>3914430the lesbian curse strikes again
>>3914184Would kanako be vanitas in this case?
>>3914438well she doesn't have the matrimonial loyalty that Ceroba has to Chujin, so it would make more sense that she'd try to actually fix her family member instead of continue her father's work(which he explicitly said he didn't want her involved in)
>>3914438This setup is better for twisting the knife, true/Kanako is more pleasant to be around anyway.>>3914493What are our chances at getting a True Lab section?
Ive been playing a game called "i have low stats but my class is leader so i recruited everyone i know to fight the dark lord", and i wondered, how would a deltarune fangame where your party is extremely big work without being boring to play (doesnt make you tap Z a million times everytime its your turn, and it doesnt make every battle too long while also not being too short)? Like not just a 4 member party, but like two digit members party or even 100 members
>>3914524it plays like classic x-com instead or like a RTS game
>>3914524at that point it isn't even the DR battle system but something else entirely
>>3914525that could be fun if you had creative attacks inspired by bullet patterns
>>3909894Does this place’s shipping preferences go like this (not counting anonymous human men)?:Ceroba for ChujinChujin for CerobaKanako for CloverClover for KanakoMartlet for… CloverStarlo for…… Ceroba? Mooch?Saw someone claiming 4chan hates Cerojin, which made no sense in my experience
>>3914560Cerojin will be crucial when I eventually write Dadjin, but in stories where Chujin is not magically alive for whatever reason I'm not against staroba as long as it doesn't make starlo a simp.Martlet for me regardless of what you said about anonymous men, but I did like the conversation we had recently about Martlet getting on well with chujin if he hadn't gotten with ceroba
>>3914560>Saw someone claiming 4chan hates CerojinWho?
>>3914561why is this the only art of the honeydew resort
>>3914560This makes me wonder, are there any serious non-crack poly ships for undertale yellow?
>>3914598Not to my knowledge. This is monokino territory.
>>3914560>Saw someone claiming 4chan hates CerojinUsually it's the opposite, with people in these threads absolutely hating the idea of Ceroba ending up with anyone other than Chujin in any circumstances.
>>3914598>non-crack>polylmao, lol even
>>3914572By someone in a UTY server a couple of months ago
>>3914560I would also like to know how anons here would do a ranked choice vote of their favorite characters. A poll here would be kinda cool. I predict it would go like:1. Martlet2. Kanako3. Ceroba4. Clover5. Chujin6. Starlo7. Mooch8. Dina9. Bero10. Everyone else idk
>>3914627Why exactly are you consulting some ambiguous "server" for the general opinions of people you can just, you know, ask?
>>3914631I didn’t ask any server for that statement about Cerojin, I only saw that statement randomly. Then, I made a remark about it today here since this is the “UTY 4chan place”
>>39146291. martlet2. clover3. The starlo Axis chujin ceroba super cluster of indecision.
>>3914634Just seems a little weird even if maybe I could be understanding given the state of non-fangame threads on /v/ for the past half a year.
>>3914560we have a couple starlet supporters here
>>3914560Dalv and the Honeydew Resort shopkeeper is an underrated oneMooch having a crush on Starlo also gets brought upRespectfully, your friend is an idiot.>>3914629I don't know how many responses you want for each anon, but my top 3 are:1. Martlet2. Flowey3. Starlo
>>3914641You know speaking of the utter fucking state of threads on /v/ it sort of feels like a shame that there couldn't be a real conversation about the fact the pink and yellow eyes thing directly correlate to Susie and Ralsei, Kris's actual friends. You know since the thread is full of garbage from someone who never even played the game.
>>3914656>the pink and yellow eyes thing directly correlate to Susie and RalseiNTA, but I just wanna ask, are you saying their eyes match the pink and yellow theme, or just their color palettes in general? Because I feel like that might be a bit of a stretch, unless there's something big I'm missing.
>>3914659Susie just straight up has yellow eyes and Ralsei has pink eyes.Admittedly you could miss what color eyes Ralsei has, but this is mostly basic game information you could get by playing.
>>3914660>Ralsei has pink eyes.You know what, that's on me, I kinda genuinely forgot Ralsei has colored pupils.In my own defense, I'm pretty sure they only show up in a single talksprite which itself only shows up in like one scene, but still, that's my bad.
>>3914661>colored pupilsIrises, fuck, whatever, I'm tired.
>>3914661You're gonna have to work deltarune overtime now.
>>3914664Okay, now that I look at the sprites again, is it weird that he also seems to have some kinda pink eyeliner or something, *exclusively* in the sprite without his glasses? That seems weird to me, I feel like that would be visible regardless of whether or not he has glasses on.
>>3914667Glasses are bimbofication inhibitors in UT/DR
>>3914667Given that it's only seen if you're on a Shadow Crystal hunt (Spamton Neo), most of his normal eyes are 'slits', his known tendency for white lies and the whole "Dark World are all about perception!" schtick AND the fact the only thing Ralsei likes about himself is his face (said while covering his face???) I think it's semi-important. Impossible to guess how though.
>>3914669So what you're saying is that every character that wears glasses can take them off to unleash their hidden sluttiness like a horny version of Rock Lee's training weights?
>>3914670>Given that it's only seen if you're on a Shadow Crystal hunt (Spamton Neo)I don't think fighting Spamton is really that big of a secret, that feels like normal gameplay stuff to me.Now, all that shit with the shadow mantle, now *that's* a fucking secret.At least, if you're like me and managed to not A-rank any of the boards while also spending all your points on healing items you assumed you'd need later and wound up locking yourself out of getting into the A-rank rooms like a complete jackass.
>>3914672I wouldn't say it's a secret, per say, but it's not on the main route, like Jevil and Gerson are. John Mantle is a special kind of hidden, but it remains the only instance of pink eyes Ralsei, on the route all about freedom no less.
>>3914674>but it's not on the main route, like Jevil and Gerson are.Honestly, I'd say Jevil's more the odd one out than Gerson and Spamton are. Gerson and Spamton are shoved right in the player's face, there's no way you can complete their respective chapters without at least knowing of their existence, they're mandatory, but you can pretty easily go through chapter 1 without knowing too much about Jevil, you just need to not go to the bottom floor with that one elevator. And granted, not a whole lot of people are gonna do that, but my point is that it's not as blatantly obvious as something like Spamton, who's a mandatory encounter who literally gives you step-by-step instructions on how to do all the things he wants you to do.I also thought Gerson was pretty obvious, but that might've just been me. I am very proud to say that I found all his stuff by myself when I played the new chapters blind on the day they came out.
>>3914676Both of those fights need a heavy dose of curiosity, backtracking and tolerance for sidequests.I've seen plenty of people finding the golden piano and dismissing the Hammer of Justice clues as fluff (or never finding Miss Mizzle). Same thing, Spamton is a mandatory encounter, but some people miss his shop entirely.
>>3914678If I can add my own anecdote of dumbassery I thought the ladle weapon you find find was the weapon gerson was referring to
>>3914678I don't think anyone who could miss out on this things is a functional person simply because they're the most obvious things in the world.
>>3914696nta but you haven't talked to a lot of normies recently huh.
>>3914698I'm an immersive sim fan, finding things in games is second nature to me.Anyone who looks at a walkable area that doesn't obviously lead somewhere important and doesn't wonder where it goes is some kind of subhuman homunculus to me.
>>3914698To be fair, you'd have to be pretty dull to play an RPG and ignore/miss all sidequest hooks.
Alright, putting the finishing touches on the last request now, should be ready for tomorrow.No shading on any of them this time, sorry, I didn't really have as much time as I'd have liked what with things going on and all.Also, that cuddling/hand-holding one is gonna have two versions, because reasons.Also, I've still been watching Yu-Gi-Oh! while I work on these, and I gotta ask, does anyone else find it slightly weird that Magical Pigeons isn't a real card? Like, of all the cards to not exist, it's weird that that one just isn't real. I could see it being a fun card to see in a duel.
>>3914710it feels like the kind of thing kazuki would have put in the game. also what is the last request?
>>3914711The cuddling/hand-holding, that one.I guess I phrased it weird in that reply, meh.Anyway yeah, it should be ready for tomorrow.
>>3914712Ah gotcha, I'm excited to see that one. Someone said they may do a request of clover and zenith martlet at a picnic and I wasn't sure if that was you/if it was still on the table.
>>3914713That was me, yes.I still do actually wanna try that one eventually, but with my recent college semester starting up I may not have time for anything other than my work and basic sanity maintenance, and god knows I've been slacking on that second one.Last time I let my sanity slip too low I started having KH2 style dreams that I was merely a fragment of another version of me that was being taken care of by Ceroba for whatever reason, and that kinda broke my brain for a bit.Anywho,
>>3914717Completely understandable, I didn't want to harass about it but I've been enjoying the deliveries and wanted to see. I have been procrastinating very badly on the things I'm working on myself.
>>3914726Ah, feel free to badger me about whatever actually, I like the attention.But yeah, I'll try and get around to it once I know longer have to worry about exploding or something. So like, probably sometime around spring/summer. If it happens any earlier that means something's gone horribly wrong.
>>3914113toby just posted a response for this, link since its multiple tweetshttps://x.com/tobyfox/status/2014875531888742666
>>3914731thats pretty good to hear. it was always such a trip that the music was handled like it was.
>>3914728I'll probably throw some messages in here as the months roll on then. I'd like to get a hang of drawing myself eventually but I have been enjoying the stuff you've put out.
>>3914430Fwiw I think future DR:Y interpretations will have more spice when Deltarune is all said and done. Think the first DR:Y was made when we only had 2 chapters and stockpiled schizo copium's worth of information about the game. With what we've got so far though, Deltarune is much more flexible of a setting than Undertale was and we hopefully won't have to tread the same path as the original's so closely.
>>3914734Well, I hope you enjoy the latest batch when I post them, though I don't think their my best works if I'm being honest.
>>3914735some people prefer the kind of story deltarune was shaping up to be pre chapter 3 though
>>3914739What, like the crazy guy who said that plot twists of any kind were some kind of inherent sin for writing and posted images of a "mod" that mostly looked like other people's sprites?
>>3914731Aw, I'm gonna miss that antagonistic little dickhead.
>>3914731>https://x.com/tobyfox/status/2014875531888742666hopefully this is the last we have to see of Materia's bullshit. Copyright's a scourge, I swear.
>>3914742To be fair the actual basic idea behind copyright is sound, it's basic impersonation.The problem is the internet is dead as fuck at this point and only corporate avenues exist, so people are getting fucked over with laws that shouldn't apply operating in a manner they shouldn't be.
>>3914731damn i was expecting him to do nothing, good for him!
>>3914740some people just like the way the story was somewhat "small scale" (yes sure the roaring would end the world but it sounded like a far off threat and people thought ralsei was lying back then), instead of going full anime with the titan fight and going full conspiracy as well
>>3914748Oh.I suppose that's actually fair enough.
>>3914717>Last time I let my sanity slip too low I started having KH2 style dreams that I was merely a fragment of another version of me that was being taken care of by CerobaWhy do you get all the kino low sanity effects? AllI get are suicidal ideation and exhaustion.
>>3914731>>3914742DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD
>>3914747
>>3914740I liked chapter 1 and 2 for the exact opposite reasons, and dislike how straight chapter 3 and 4 played things. I wanted NEO dark worlds, the prophecy being a lie, and the Knight to not literally be a big bad scary knight.Also the titan was lame. It should have been a bald shadow man for the whole fight, or just not appeared at all.
>>3914753>Why do you get all the kino low sanity effects?The dreams were nice, but they completely dismantled my sense of reality, and also if they end up being real that means I'm gonna get Roxas'd, which isn't great.Getting to feel Ceroba carrying me back to bed after I stumbled around trying to find her was nice though, so maybe it's worth it.
>>3914757Maybe the grass is always greener and its not actually as good as it sounds, but it really sounds a lot nicer than just being miserable.
>>3914757damn thats crazy, I had a terrible time sleeping all week, so I got some sleep aid. I went to bed thinking "It would be great to dream about Martlet for once" and instead I had the reoccurring "finals day" nightmare. Truly people that can dream about video games are built different.
>>3914759>Maybe the grass is always greener Eh, from what I was told in the dream, it's more like *this* is the "other side", and Ceroba was doing something to try and maintain my body until I return to her, and she told me I had to reach some kind of greater understanding before I could return. No clue why any of that was happening, but I didn't learn much before I woke up.>Truly people that can dream about video games are built different.I only had these dreams after I experienced some of the worst mental stress I've ever felt in my entire life, so maybe that's a prerequisite of some kind. The dreams actually seemed to be encouraging me to keep living, rather than telling me to end it all or anything like that, so maybe it was just my brain trying to stabilize me or something.
>>3914759marty showed up in a dream I had like a week ago but I think her role was minor because all I can remember was her appearance in it
>>3914761brain chemistry is a hell of a drug. I just get vivid dreams but it never really amounts to anything. The nightmares are interesting and I want to use them for writing at some point.>>3914764blessed, you see your dream means that bird,
>>3914766>brain chemistry is a hell of a drug.Brain chemistry: not even once.
>>3914769now THATS the Ceroba way around things!
>>3914771Don't be mean to mean to my weird dream-hallucination fox wife, she deserves better!
>>3914772I love her but thinking things through isn't her strongsuit except in my IMAGINED post pacifist revival timelines where she actually faces her failings and becomes a better person for it.
>>3914761I meant grass is always greener as in your low sanity effects seem better than mine.
>>3914740that guy is apparently actually doing it. he pops up in /doe/ from time to time>>3914748>>3914756your respective wants are boring
>>3914776>that guy is apparently actually doing itSo he says, for all we know he only thinks that and those screenshots are the entirety of his "mod". Or the entire mod is already done and he's only witholding it to add even more stuff. You never know with schizos.>your respective wants are boringAlright fancypants, lets hear your ideal deltarune
>>3914775>I meant grass is always greener as in your low sanity effects seem better than mine.Oh, that.Eh, maybe. I guess it depends on what you want out of your lack of sanity. Though I must admit, the idea that I'll wake up by Ceroba's side someday is a comforting one.
>>3914759I had that one dream about Martlet murdering Ceroba, but otherwise no such luck. I'm more likely to dream about Star Trek or Planetside 2 since those are what I grew up on, or I get other forms of nostalgia like wandering through beautiful green fields or spending time with a deceased family member. Dreams rarely unnerve me and instead they comfort me at night. I kept a dream journal of four years of such dreams and much wilder ones, but that was sadly lost with my hard drive failing.>>3914761Reminds me of that one anon who had a NDE and was visited by Princess Luna. It can get surreal.
I'm pretty sad that new game dev stuff getting talked about was sniped by the admins.Even if the party game stuff might not have had any game stuff being developed with it.
>>3914790>Planetside 2Ah, dreaming about showing your enemies the will of Vanu, eh?
>>3914793The jannies probably didn't target it specifically for that, but had a grudge against that anon for whatever reason.
>>3914793the way I look at conversations like that, is that its really valuable for the kind of stuff that happens here. its creative, it gets the mind going which is good for any other creative stuff the anon is working on, and fresh spins like that can potentially even inspire someone to work on something of their own. Stuff like that is at the heart of it all.
>>3914790>Reminds me of that one anon who had a NDE and was visited by Princess Luna.Huh, any other details about that one?
>>3914793what are you talking about? was there a thread up?
>>3914800There was an anon here posting about a Mario Party inspired Deltarune fangame. He was also complaining about being image banned. Then the image ban was lifted for a while and he posted some sketches of what the game would look like. Then he got image banned again, then abruptly stopped posting, leading others to believe he was upgraded to a full ban.
>>3914800The party game stuff that's been discussed on and off for about a week.
>>3914774>except in my IMAGINED post pacifist revival timelines where she actually faces her failings and becomes a better person for it.And in my weird dream/hallucination/visions I guess.
>>3914524Programmable movesets. Your allies function on their own based on what strategy you tell them, like that one later Final Fantasy game. You can put allies in squads (or maybe they're in pre-made squads) and they can make context-sensitive actions like "heal party member X when they reach Y% HP threshold" or "attack with X when party member Y applies status Z."How do you make this work in a game like Deltarune? You don't, not if you want it to feel like Deltarune. You can't have special ACTs for 100 party members for every enemy, and even if you could it would be insanity to watch all 100 play out. If you don't want to watch them and see the result there's no point in having them. You MIGHT be able to contextualize the shmup defense by giving each party member buffs that apply when their squad is being targeted, but that seems messy.
>>3914833>>3914774How does she works through it? A spouse dying is hard enough, but the kid falling down due to her own shortsightedness despite her idol saying NOT to do it? A real Ceroba would become psychotic at best.
>>3914888T'was merely a heated gamer moment.Joking aside, that's a good question. I can argue ways to justify what she did, and truth be told I don't even really think it's that bad even in the context of their universe, but I imagine it would be a very difficult thing to get over, if she ever did. Alternatively, maybe there's still a way to fix it, which I think beats just getting over it emotionally, but I've already talked about that a long while ago.
>>3914888>A real Ceroba would become psychotic at best.Have you played the Pacifist Route yet?
>>3914888>in the wake of clover dying and realizing what they let happen, Ceroba and Martlet both give up. Starlo makes it his mission to drag them both out of their houses every day for months until the sheer power of routine keeps them moving. >Ceroba is still drinking a lot but its slightly better than letting her rot in her bed>one day drunk out of her mind she finally confesses everything about Kanako, and how much she hates herself over letting clover die for the worlds mistakes much like she let happen to Kanako. Slurring and rambling she demands that Martlet or Starlo drag her to the royal guard so they can give her what she deserves>Martlet reveals that clover accidentally called Ceroba mom when they were rushing to her on the rooftop that fateful day, how she isn't sure what clover saw in Ceroba, but at least it isn't right to give up the life he wanted her to keep living>Ceroba could never bring herself to drink again, she forced herself up and forward every day, until suddenly it was Starlo that crashed. >struck with the realization that she missed someone working themselves to death right in front of her again she tries to truly look herself in the mirror and face the fact that watching 4 people march to their death in front of her is too many, she starts trying to genuinely pay attention to whats happening around her from then on as she drags Starlo forward like he did for her each time she had fucked up before.Then one day, through the power of cosmic IMAGINING, they all get another chance to make things right.
>>3915004So this is the POWER Toby was talking about...
I was gonna make the /v/ thread but I've been IP range-banned....
>>3915031I can make it if you give me an image and what you were going to write as the thread opener
>>3915033It was that picture of Martlet."Why is it that avian characters aren't as often depicted in media as other types of animal/anthro characters? Yet, when they are featured they seem to be extremely memorable: see Japhet from OFF, Falco from Star Fox, the feuding birds from A Hat in Time, and Martlet from Undertale Yellow. Do birds fit certain archetypes better than others?"
>>3915036I'd like to do another open thread soon where we can also get input from people inspired to work on other games fancontent or original content too, the thread we did like that was really good.
>>3915036done
>>3915039Thank you Anon, and sorry to all the Cerobafags out there. Liking foxes is just too normie to make for an interesting thread.
>>3915031How'd you manage that?
>>3915055Absolutely no clue. I can reply just fine, not post threads. Maybe it was some shitpost from a while ago but I don't remember.
>>3915031>>3915055>>3915059This is becoming an epidemic, I will remember you if the mods kill you too anon.
>>3915039Well, I was planning on making my own thread until I realized someone already made one.Personally, I'm not a fan of the new thread and I think it'll get off-topic quick, but I'll try again next week, I guess.
>>3915039Link it
>>3913186Hey anon, did you have time to check that out?
>>3915073we're starting pretty early and a lot of people are probably at home ready to post because of the murrican weather. we may have time for two this weekend.
>>3915074>>>/v/731512273
>>3915081Seems like I was right, most of the thread has nothing to do with Undertale Yellow
>>3915103you have to bring UTY topics to steer the thread where you want, if you just wait nothing will happen
>>3915077Sorry I took so long getting to it, but I was finally able to spend some time and read through it. I didn't hate it, but I feel like it was pretty undercooked. I was originally going to have a huge post detailing all my criticisms, but I wasn't sure if you wanted to read through a giant wall of text for it. I can post it anyways if you want, though.
>>3915208Hmm, on one hand criticism could be good but on the other hand I don't feel like rewriting lots of thigns because I am satisfied with what I wrote as is. But some pointers or thoughts would be neat to hear.
>>3915241Alright, I'll just give a little bit of my thoughts then.I think the overarching story itself is neat. The concept of Clover's memories being infused with every other timeline he's been through , and just how the two timelines were combined is fun. There was some issues with pacing, if I were to re-do anything it'd be the fight scene after Zenith Martlet's transported over to the new timeline. A lot of the problems I had with the story culminated there. Overall it could probably be a lot better if you took the time to flesh it out more and polished it. Also, use way less ellipses in your dialogue. I felt like basically every other sentence was connected with one. Try to find a different way to structure your dialogue.That's about all, I think. It's still nice to see UTY stories pop up here, since I wouldn't really have the time to write something for this myself, unfortunately. Hope you can write some more stuff in the future.
>>3915363I do need to cut back on the ellipsis yeah I agree, just don't really know how else to make pauses in speech otherwise.
nta, but you can break the rules of punctuation quite a bit in dialogue. Add arbitrary commas for small pauses, and then you have periods. For longer pauses. But be careful, or you'll end up with something like tumblr-speak. There's also the option of breaking a piece of dialogue into smaller pieces and interjecting descriptions of pauses, expressions, ect.
>>3915388I personally like semi-colons; they're a classic way of splitting sentences and sort of are in between a comma and a period. But look out—the EM dash is better at suggesting a faster train of thought than the tired semicolon.
>>3915413>>3915414I'll try and make a pass on the story and lessen the ellipse sea, thanks anons.
>>3915414>>3915413>>3915363another anon learning to write here, I've always been aware that ellipsis get overused, but how much can you still get away with using them? I find that when I have Martlet talking or thinking, occasionally I want to use them to show the pause in her thoughts that feels longer than a comma and I don't know that a semicolon is right >"She had only known the kid for… a day, right?"is it ok to use them like this if used sparingly? I wanted to get a feeling of her thoughts really trailing off before picking up again.
>>3915449Yes that's perfectly fine. Ellipses are one of those things that make more sense as part of the dialogue than as part of the narration, though you can use it as part of the narration as well. I go by the principle that narration ought to be "proper" while dialogue can flout grammatical rules to show how a character speaks.
>>3915449It's impossible to say how much is too much for ellipses, but it's always better to air on the side of caution. If you want a similar effect without the "...", you could reconfigure the sentence. In your example, I might go with the following:"She had only known the kid for a day, right? Right. It's only been a day." This one just uses periods and a single word to bridge, and remains inside the character's head.OR"She had only known the kid for a day, right? Martlet nods to herself. It's only been a day." Similar, but bridges with a physical description of a character action.Both examples break the thought into multiple pieces/sentences. This has a natural effect of creating a gap in the thought, and then it's a matter of bridging it in the way you find the most artful. Of course, there's nothing wrong with the original, and perhaps you really want to keep the shorter version that uses an ellipsis to show the rhythm of the thought. You can apply the same strategy elsewhere to avoid a feeling of overuse.
>>3915495>"She had only known the kid for a day, right? Right. It's only been a day.">"She had only known the kid for a day, right? Martlet nods to herself. It's only been a day."I can definitely see now how those do give the same feeling of a pause, though they do also "feel different" like the answer is more conclusive, but that will be helpful to keep in mind to break it up if I find myself wanting to use ellipsis again. I'm trying to pick up structure things like this so I really appreciate the examples.>>3915494that helps as well, I can think of times where I've seen really "unusual" structure in dialogue and I wasn't sure if that was ok to mess with, or if it would get tiring to a reader. Would character thoughts fall more into the narration side of things? Thank you as well for the input on this.I've been getting stuck on the thing I'm trying to write all week as I'm starting to try and adapt to what should be a hard rule vs what is a stylistic choice. Doing my best to not just freeze and make no progress though.
>>3915495>>3915494Seems like I've got a lot of fixing to do but to be honest I'm not sure how willing the mind and body is. I'll try and make my story less egregious in that regard but I'm not sure how much I can do that, only time will tell I suppose.
working on a thread focused on fangame discussion. /v/ suddenly decided that I need one of the 300 second wait times first.
I'm glad the thread turned out as well as it did. I was worried about not making it explicitly UTY-focused, but we attracted some new frens and had some interesting discussion. That's a roaring success in my book.>>3915534Looking forward to it, anon! Seems like the site is busy with how many anons are snowed in.
>>3915534I'd let it cool down for a while
>>>/v/731581837Lets keep it a bit more on topic and share whats being worked on big or small. A proper video game discussion mostly
>>3915545Sorry anon, already had it posted. I feel its worth having since the last one was a bit of an off topic mess. Anyone have the link to the fangame archive?
>>3915549https://rentry.org/mtt-fangames
>>3915560Thank you anon
Momlet unbirthing moment https://files.catbox.moe/s6k0sh.jpg
>>3915573I'm almost tempted to click, part of me says "well he said it was something bad so maybe its a trick".but I don't know that I can click on it.
>>3915585I tried opening the link and it doesn't work, image can't load
>>3915586seems catbox is down right now
>>3912902Instant loss 2koma
>>3915757The thing is that Yoplait is just some kid, even if Shu went as far as to offer himself up as appeasement, he'd have no idea what he's supposed to do with that.
>>3915757Shu in general is just instant loss 2koma bait
>>3915786I was more thinking like, shu hitting the cursed thumb pose and getting like, broly lariat'd.Not like, presenting ass to Yogurt for mercy.
>>3915786I'd imagine he'd go find an adult, or a police officer.
No one kept the thread active, it's sunk now.
Eh, we pretty much had two back to back.
Alright, I said I'd repost the request deliveries from the /v/ threads once the latest one was over, so here they are if you missed them.Wiki's thighs: https://files.catbox.moe/1p7ql4.pngThat Garfield meme but with Mooch: https://files.catbox.moe/ygsdut.pngCeroba and an Anon holding hands while cuddling (clothed): https://files.catbox.moe/1nd7bn.pngCeroba and an Anon holding hands while cuddling (not clothed): https://files.catbox.moe/m5gq0o.pngOkay, now I'm giving it a rest. I'll be back once I finish the Ceroba lactation thing I said I'd do in the last thread, and then hopefully I'll have the Martlet one done soon after that.Later.
>>3915847Thank you, anon!I'm saddened that the thread died while I was asleep but all good things need to come to a close. I just had an idea for a request for the other drawanon and it's basically the inverse of his Kanako one. Kanako forcibly undresses Cole (maybe he needs to put on a disguise, or spilled chemicals on himself, or is drenched in cold weather) and he is embarrassed about it. Alternatively, you could have a pic set a little later where he's in his underwear and Kanako is hugging him to warm him up, much to his embarrassment and arousal.
>Elegy for Hallownest
>>3915837That's really upsetting. I'm sorry I couldn't stay on and keep it afloat, but I am having some real irl health issues right now.
>>3915837I was sleeping, sorry.
I'm sad to see the thread fell off overnight, but it was a pretty good thread while it lasted. It's interesting how desperately people (and I suspect it's probably just one person) were obsessively calling it a general and claiming the thread topic was a lie/misdirection when It had undertale yellow directly in the OP post. What drives a person to hate video games that muchIt was really nice though getting to see everyones inspirations and efforts while indulging in my undertale yellow obsessions.
>>3915893Probably a salty schizo from a DR thread with a crab bucket mentality.
>>3915894unfortunate, but it would make sense considering one of the posts was claiming the whole discussion was "about deltarune"
>>3915837I'll be honest and say that both threads this week were unfocused and off topic. It'd be better to try again next week with a proper thread that returns to form.
>>3915897the second thread was very on topic, the topic just intentionally let non yeller people share their stuff as well which helped keep it bumped a bit anyways. we got 4 seperate draw anons posting art, confirmation that Naranja still lives. I would have liked more Tall chujin discussion but it was still on topic. The first thread was funny but yeah it was basically just a bird pussy discussion through and through.
>>3915897That's true but it wasn't a bad thing and I'd argue those were quality threads. The first was about birds in gaming and attracted some fresh interest with good discussions, though at points it was awkward to have both that and other UTY topics in the same thread. I don't know if any birdfags will visit future UTY threads but if even one does then it's a success. The second thread was much more specific in scope and it succeeded with plenty of discussion around making fanworks. There was also that conversation with an actual music professional and that was the highlight of the thread.I can't speak for other anons but the two threads kept me engrossed for the whole weekend and now I'm motivated to do more writing.
Heya guys it's me drawanon, pregnancy guy or whatever you want to call me!.For those that missed it, on the previous thread I posted the most appealing request, from the last time I was accepting request.Said request was DRY Cole walking on Kanako undressing, and Kanako taking advantage of the situation.You can view the image here:https://files.catbox.moe/yo0iyp.pngFeel free to send me request ideas here too!
>>3915907I don't usually save NSFW art but this was so good that I had to.My request is >>3915850 but I know you got a massive pile of them from the /v/ thread.
>>3915907I would still like "anon and martlet having a fancy dinner together" but its tough because so many other anons came up with really neat ideas. I look forward to seeing what you end up doing regardless.
Not a fangame, more like an AU, but a chapter 2 era fanmade secret boss got updated to work better with the released chapter 3. Just a music video and good designs, but still interesting.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQXcToAQHVYwould
>>3915910Would you be upset if they were eating spicy food that Anon can't handle while Martlet doesn't mind it one bit? It's your idea and I don't want to ruin it by tacking on an attempt at humor. (I'm not drawanon, just making a suggestion)>>3915912She looks like a Touhou character with some of Rosalina's design elements. The artwork is superb.
>>3915915I'm not against the idea, but I would love a panel of Martlet being shy in a really nice dress. I'd honestly like to see what draw anon would come up with as her dress if he did go with the idea but we'll see. It felt like there were a lot of really good requests last night. It looks like the only image of Martlet in a dress of any kind that I have is already posted above, but the idea is appealing regardless
>>3915907to give a request that isn't just fetish material, DRY1 Sadie in her dark world getup.
>>3915907This is the request I sent to on the previous thread.DRY Martlet having the talk with Cole about sex.It would be awesome if you have it to were both forms have different approaches.Like Martlet is flustered but Zenith isn't the slightest bit flustered about the subject.
>>3915901I think one or two anons mentioned that they were going to give yellow a try on account of the threads, which was nice to see. Regardless I feel the same way on writing. I was running into a wall all week but as the threads went on I felt motivated and started pushing through. Whether it ends up any good is another issue entirely, but it felt dreadful making no progress all week until then.
>>3915907Sequel to the Zenith Martlet unbirthing image.Also a Zenith Martlet game over gif, like you did with normal Martlet.
>>3915907Cole's reaction to seeing Martlet's normal bra which is big, then Zenith's custom made bra which is incredibly big.
>>3915907roba wearing a nice dress
>>3915907Martlet talking to Clover within the mind, while she's pregnant with him, like how Flowey did when he tried to absorb his soul.I just find it interesting, how it would work, and what Clover's experiencing as he's essentially being reborn in bird monster.
>>3915907Wholesome scene of DRY Martlet/Zenith bathing with Cole, but this time he's used to it.
>>3915956I think part of what makes me nauseous conceptually about the whole absorption and him being reborn thing, is the idea of his personality just magically being changed to be good, just overwriting him, and while I know that is some peoples fetish, it gives me chills.if instead while it was happening, Martlet was tangling with Clovers memories, finding out some of what happened to him before he fell down, and maybe even glimpsing the fact that he's been forced through hundreds if not thousands of timelines by flowey, which could have been subtly affecting his personality as even if he didn't directly remember the timelines, the built up after effects of him going through the underground hundreds of times watching martlet die evey time she offered him a home could have changed him in some way. If it was in some way her facing that and helping to untangle the damage in his heart that was out of his control then I could get behind it a lot more.but just unpersoning him into a good little bird after all he's been through is nightmare material for me.
>>3915949Tbh unless if you want to portray their relationship in a different light he'd probably find it icky, just like boys normally do when seeing intimate items of their mothers and sisters. Cole isn't biologically related to Martlet and their age difference more resembles that of siblings than of mother and son, so if you want you could interpret him as having some attraction to her. However he would probably suppress it especially considering he canonically has romantic interest in Kanako.I think it would be fun to have this idea with Dina instead: she's at least as old as Martlet and it would be less weird from Cole's perspective.
>>3915969To be fair the anon said Martlet, and not Zenith Martlet.The Drawanon has drawn both forms of Martlet in this scenario where they are absorbing Clover's soul, and having him being reborn within them.And it's clear there's a different air between the two scenarios. With normal Martlet it's completely all willing, and it's mutual between her and Clover. I'd also imagine the experience isn't anything stressful, as Martlet would want to ensure the process is comfortable as possible.Whereas in Zenith Martlet's case she's doing it as a form of mercy, to ensure Clover's violence is stopped without killing him, and going down this route to ensure she can give him a better life that's not motivated by violence.I doubt Zenith is tampering with Clover's memories at all, or brain washing him, so when comes out he's a blank slate. More she's essentially forcing the fight out of him, so she proceed with intentions.In Zenith's case Clover soul is within her now, so they have all the time in the world to talk within there minds, and I'd imagine she wants to help Clover heal, it's just that she had to subdue him first to work towards that.I do think with Clover's soul inside her, she would see all the shit that Clover's gone through, which would likely motivate her more to go through with this, so Clover doesn't have to experience all the stuff that made him a broken child.
>>3915971Their idea doesn't really feel icky at all, especially considering in this world, it makes sense that Cole would be surprised about new stuff he learns about his monster foster mother.It also works well, if we take the Cole discovering Zenith for the first image, so I can see the comical element here, where he's start to see that major difference between the two forms, both physically and in other aspects, like in this case, a much larger bra size.
>>3915907How about an image that shows Martlet dealing with her pregnancy with Clover.Would be interesting to see the differences between how Zenith and normal Martlet handle it.Like I said in the thread, it's nice to see you back taking requests again Drawanon.
>>3915907Would be interesting to see your take on what Clover looks like as a bird monster after Martlet or Zenith has given birth to him.
>>3915976>To be fair the anon said Martlet, and not Zenith Martlet.it wasn't an attack at that anon. the normal martlet ones are just "fetish I'm not into" but the Zartlet ones have that forced aspect without resolution that can easily go into a self erasure type of thing. I responded to that post however because while reading his post I realized how I could make peace with the idea. A certain amount of "depersoning" can go hand in hand with fetishes like that, I'm not saying that's the case with this draw anon, but reframing it myself as martlet having 1 on 1 time with clovers soul, and getting to find out first hand that clover did in fact try to live a better life before, and every time Clover tried to take her offer to live a peaceful life, she was killed in front of him, and her last words were always blaming him for it since she didn't see the attacker, I think this would recontextualize everything for Zartlet, sending her on a mission to not just reform Clover, but in a sense bring justice FOR him.it goes hand in hand with what an anon was saying the other day that maybe the genocide route was because of a build up of deja vu like "half memories" of all the timelines flowey dragged him through, where monsters with their little determination sometimes have deja vu of a reset, maybe clover being a human even if he wasn't "particularly determined for a human" still had enough for the consequences of those runs to affect him in some way.this takes the scenario that really fucked with me, and instead makes it something I can get behind. I have IMAGINED an almost vengeful zartlet having sympathy for the killer despite all he did, for the law can account for circumstance can it not?
What if Mart Mart took clover to MttDonalds
>>3915992>that forced aspect without resolution that can easily go into a self erasure type of thing.NTA, but god, finally someone says it, that always struck me as being weird as hell, I hate it when someone's free will is just overridden like that.
why are people like this>read fic with integrity>she is referred as female and no one bats an eye>but clover is they/them because...?
>>3915995Imagining it as an actual arc between the two where Zartlet navigates the labyrinth of Clovers mind, which has been twisted by enduring faint recollections of floweys endless resets makes it a lot better. I also have to imagine that such a clover doesn't just come out completely cleansed of the feelings built up from everything he's been through, but perhaps the part of him that wanted to accept Martlets offer in each and every neutral timeline is willing to give it a chance after everything is "untangled". making it some kind of arc between them at least makes it significantly better for me, and makes it easier for me to enjoy that draw anons work.
>>3915999I saw that earlier, the other image was cute but "cowthey" is the dumbest sounding shit imaginable. even if you want to imagine clover as whatever mish mash you want, cowthey is abjectly a retarded sounding word that feels like its trying too hard.
>>3916000>the part of him that wanted to accept Martlets offer in each and every neutral timelineI still think this in particular is stupid based on how Clover and Martlet actually interact in the various possible routes of UTY, but I've already rambled about that more than enough in previous threads.
>>3916004I see it as clover seeks purpose because purpose goes hand in hand with belonging, and we already have hints that clover didn't come from a great upbringing. When the cards are down its the thing he wants most in the world, and outside of the genocide/pacifist extremes, when someone he respects offers him that he absolutely crumbles.but still I'm not meaning to turn it into a drawn out argument, I just think that clovers greatest desire is to belong, more than it is to bring justice, even if he himself would not acknowledge it. He's a kid after all.
>>3915999>>3916001They've invented a new slur for western folk. It's like latinx.
>>3916007I'm from Texas, I can just imagine someone coming down to visit and asking where the "cowthem" are and no one realizing what stupid fucking thing they just said, assuming it was some weirdly pronounced food place from up north "Never heard of couthum but we can go to whataburger or something"
>>3916005>when someone he respects offers him that he absolutely crumbles.To respond to this without turning it into a whole thing, my issue is that Clover has no reason to actually have that level of respect for Martlet in most routes, their connection feels extremely forced because they just don't spend that much time together, even on pacifist if we're being honest.I get why people in the community like to pair Martlet and Clover in a parent/child relationship, but if we seriously look at their in-game relationship, it makes very little sense for Clover to have any major connection to Martlet over most other monsters.
>>3916009I didn't agree with it last time you posted that image, and didn't get a response to my counterpoint when we were doing a full blown discussion so I'm not really interested in arguing with a pre-cooked thesis there. she has traits that clover clearly likes which are probably that she exhibits a sense of right and wrong, is the only monster to end a fight themself, and furthermore doesn't have to be beaten up for it. she risks her lively hood to do what she thinks is right (even if she does it poorly) and those few things alone could very well be enough to endear her to a kid that didn't have jack shit in life before then. She tries to help his journey (despite failing constantly) without ever turning on him suddenly like ceroba and starlo do which probably means a lot to the little kid.thats about as in detail as I want to get because it's really exhausting forming an argument and getting hit with a several month old reply to some other persons argument instead of anything you just said.
>>3915992Personally I've always found the Zenith Martlet versions of these images of her absorbing Clover's soul, and having him be reborn within her, more interesting than the normal ones. Cause while there's a motive in both cases, I like than in Zenith's case there's a lot more layers to it, and room to explore all the parts to it.Cause we know Clover has in fact done Neutral many times by Flowey's own admission. As well as the fact Clover also has a form of ripple proof memory from the Resets. So him subconsciously remembering all the trauma of having to watch Martlet get killed in front him, totally makes sense. As well as everything else, that would eventually cause him to snap. So once Clover's soul is within Zenith Martlet, and she sees all the shit he's had to endure, through their talks, and from them being literally connected. She would have sympathy for him, even after his crimes. Even on aborted Genocide she decides, I'm going to give a better life than this. She's not heartless, and if given context, she'd have a better understanding of Clover's fragile mental state.I do like that in this scenario, even when Clover's in his most vengeful state, and before she gets additional context, her goal isn't to kill Clover, but to subdue him, and go through this process so that Clover doesn't have to continue living the hate filled life that he has been living, simply because she acknowledges a child shouldn't be living such a life.I have seen a lot of anon's talk about this, and I'd agree that when Clover's at his worst, Martlet is the only person that would be able to get through to him, it's just in this case she had to force him into a position where he couldn't harm anyone, and they both have all the time in the world to talk, so Zenith can help Clover mentally heal.>>3915995I'm sure Clover's mind and free will are completely in fact. I doubt Zartlet would do such a thing to Clover. She wants to help him, not erase him.
>>3916015>I'm sure Clover's mind and free will are completely in fact. I doubt Zartlet would do such a thing to Clover. She wants to help him, not erase him.the problem is that this subject matter is often used alongside that erasure, so while it may sound autistic of me, it helps me a lot to explore what the interaction between that version of those characters would be, dispelling the thought of that particular kind of transformation.
>>3916014>and didn't get a response to my counterpointWhat counterpoint was that? I don't remember the last time I talked about this here, it's been a minute.I'll provide counterpoints to your points here though.>doesn't have to be beaten up for it.She does still attack without provocation like every other monster, and she still has to be dissuaded from fighting like every other monster, just much more passively, she was still hostile towards Clover in their first encounter regardless of how much her heart wasn't in it.>without ever turning on him suddenly like ceroba and starlo do which probably means a lot to the little kid.She actively carried the DT syringe on her person the entire time she was with Clover, and only ever decided to reveal this to them and throw it away towards the very end of their journey, meaning she was actively planning to have to kill Clover the entire time and only decided against it at the last minute. That's not great either.
>>3916009To be fair, as a point of comparison, Frisk has less interaction with Toriel and is entirely cut off from her until the very end of pacifist, yet you can make Frisk stay with her.Counter-counterpoint: that is entirely up to player choice and is not mandated even though Toby does seem to favor that ending. You don't get that choice with Martlet in Yellow.HOWEVER, Frisk is an almost total blank slate while Clover canonically is starved for affection which explains the difference.Overall I don't mind it too much and it's not "forced" to me. I still think it could have been done better, just as with many other details in the game. However I don't see the same criticisms being made towards Toriel. I think no matter how you do it the unbirthing thing will always be "forced" since it's a fetish made into an interesting story arc. Accumulated trauma from being tortured by Flowey is a compelling story detail, though we never see the same sort of thing from Toriel (who canonically has some reset-proof memory, and it's implied Flowey must have tortured her at some point as well).
>>3916016Not necessary. I think it just depends on the context, and how someone decides to go about portraying it. In this case it's clear Martlet isn't erasing Clover, or factory resetting him. With how souls work, as well as what kind of stuff happens when you absorb a soul, it paves the way for interest in exploring how Clover and Zenith Martlet would interact in this scenario.Honestly I kind of like how all these ideas are being presented with how such interactions would go in this situation, as well as how Martlet would go about trying to resolve Clover's trauma to help him heal.
>>3916019>Frisk has less interaction with Toriel and is entirely cut off from her until the very end of pacifist, yet you can make Frisk stay with her.I also think that's a little dumb in the context of UT also, but you already brought up the counter-counterpoint, so whatever.>However I don't see the same criticisms being made towards Toriel.Oh, you probably missed some threads early last year, people were having a field day dunking on her back when the recent chapters of DR came out, not even just for DR Toriel. Toriel absolutely has her issues, but my issue with UTY is that a lot of character connections feel really half-baked and forced, but not necessarily unsalvageably so.For example, a lot of people say Ceroba's story could be almost completely fixed just by having Kanako inject herself with the serum behind Ceroba's back. I think with Clover and Martlet, you could pretty easily establish a more significant relationship between the two by just having them spend more actual time together, like Ceroba and Clover do throughout the steamworks. Maybe have more playable sections after Martlet's fight for her to accompany you through, or maybe just have her encounter happen much sooner after the dark ruins, whatever, but the main issue I have with their "relationship" is that they barely actually have one, since Martlet doesn't actually spend that much time traveling with Clover other than immediately after her fight and before the dunes, and the time leading up to Ceroba's fight, which is basically just a straight walk.
>>3916018>She does still attack without provocation like every other monster, and she still has to be dissuaded from fighting like every other monster, just much more passively, she was still hostile towards Clover in their first encounter regardless of how much her heart wasn't in it.yes, but that doesn't change what I said. she does attack, but she's the only monster to end the fight herself. Every single other fight is ended by either someone else intervening, or clover being the one to ultimately grant mercy. Its not the biggest thing in the world, but its something that does set her apart from literally every other person in the underground. She makes a decision in their fight that aligns with her morals and those are the same kind of values that clover clearly cares about.>She actively carried the DT syringe on her person the entire time she was with Clover, and only ever decided to reveal this to them and throw it away towards the very end of their journey, meaning she was actively planning to have to kill Clover the entire time and only decided against it at the last minute. That's not great either.you're taking her actions in a poor light. she was a royal guard and she had the syringe in case clover was bad, and made the call herself to get rid of it. someone whos job it is to kill you, having an item that will help them kill you, and then actively disposing of it in front of you is not a mark against them, its virtue in their favor. She can't be blamed for owning the tools of her station, but she could have been blamed if she used them, she actively decided to give clover every chance she could because of her values which is something that would endear her to clover since other prominent monsters turn away from "whats right" in order to attack clover. she doesn't do most everything right, she's a mess of a person, a walking disaster even, but she's the only person he meets who lives and dies by her principles, and that clearly meant something to him.
>>3916021>Not necessary. I think it just depends on the context, and how someone decides to go about portraying it.what I'm saying, is that there are a lot of transformation things out there that do that whole "person gets changed and doesn't even remember being who they were before afterwards". and since the image leaves it open how things actually play out, and it being a more forced situation, it makes it easier for me to digest by discussing how it could happen as a dance between the characters dealing with everything that has happened. once we get to that point then yeah I think its really interesting, and everything you laid out in >>3916015is stuff I can really work with. I really like the idea of Martlet at first having a certain anger about her that she has to keep under control because she really wants to give this person a chance, possibly pushing into his memories that he tries to guard from her which may come across as cruel of her at first (violation of autonomy in a sense) but then she's hit with thousands of memories of her own death, but not at his hands. as she hears her own voice echoing hundreds of different accusations at clover in those memories, she herself has to come to grips with the truth of what's been going on here in the underground. its the kind of stuff that despite not being into the unbirthing, I'd want to write about.
>>3916024>but she's the only person he meets who lives and dies by her principlesI mean, you could technically argue this for most of the main cast actually. Except Dalv, since he doesn't have that much going on, most of the UTY cast is characterized as people who want to do the right thing one way or another, but have personal flaws that either lead them astray or cause them to lose sight of what the right thing to do actually is. Martlet's conflict is, broadly, between what she perceives as her duty (both as a royal guard and also to the people she knows and looks up to, such as Chujin), and what she thinks is right. We see a similar conflict with Starlo, with him having an internal conflict between wanting to cheer up the people around him with his North Star persona, and wanting to maintain that persona for his own personal insecurities, which then evolves into him wanting to take Clover's soul for personal fame. A conflict between other people's needs and his own desires.For Ceroba, her conflict is between what she sees as multiple different "greater goods", with her wanting to complete the serum project not only to fulfill Chujin's legacy, but also because she genuinely sees the project as Monsterkind's best hope once the barrier is broken, but she also weighs that against the damage her pursuit of the project has done to the people around her in her life, which creates a conflict causing her to spiral.Most of the main cast of UTY has a sense of right and wrong and gets into a personal conflict because of it, Martlet's just had hers set up in such a way that she didn't try quite as hard to kill Clover as the others did, which does set her apart, but moreso as being "less bad" than the others, not specifically good.
>>3916028>I mean, you could technically argue this for most of the main cast actually. Except Dalv, since he doesn't have that much going on, most of the UTY cast is characterized as people who want to do the right thing one way or another, but have personal flaws that either lead them astray or cause them to lose sight of what the right thing to do actually is. Martlet's conflict is, broadly, between what she perceives as her duty (both as a royal guard and also to the people she knows and looks up to, such as Chujin), and what she thinks is right.the problem is the order the arcs happen in. yes thats the conflict, but martlet has her conflict at the start, makes a decision to help clover and sticks with it until the end. starlo starts off friendly, and tosses morals aside after the fact to attack clover, Ceroba starts off acting friendly and as well suddenly attacks clover. you're absolutely right about the conflicts existing, but for a kid, the order of things makes a huge difference because Martlet is someone that is shown to make a call aligning with her morals and stick to them until the end (letting clover die in pacifist is in my opinion a failing of her own morals, but this is about how clover sees her not that). The order of events is critical to this because in the neutral route she even doubles down on her morals by showing clover the syringe and disposing of it, so in his eyes she would not only never betray her own values, but embody them more sincerely by the end.for a kid that had nothing until that point (going off the hints again that he had a bad life before), Being consistent is huge. Hell in parenting consistency is extremely important in the first place, so she makes an impression on clover
>>3916029You may have a point about consistency, but I still think there's an issue with the overall time they actually spend with each other. Compared to the other cast members, Clover and Martlet really don't spend too much time together throughout the underground, and I just really don't think they spent nearly enough time together for it to make sense for Clover to see Martlet as a parental figure, as opposed to just a non-hostile monster. Also, I feel like it's worth pointing out as a counterpoint to the consistency argument that Martlet leaving Clover at the end of the dunes to go check in at her post is what allowed Ceroba to nearly succeed in taking Clover to the lab, so in that particular moment, her prioritizing her duty as a royal guard nearly got Clover killed even after she had already switched sides, so she wasn't nearly as committed to it as you might suggest here.
Kind of unrelated to the topic of the thread, but that Monster Freaks demo posted in the thread over on /v/ was fun.
>>3916031>and I just really don't think they spent nearly enough time together for it to make sense for Clover to see Martlet as a parental figure, as opposed to just a non-hostile monsteand I understand that, and I don't have a problem with you not liking the connection a lot of people want to form between them, but I want to justify it the best I can with my own understanding of child psychology having worked with children. I'm not trying to speak it as a place of authority, but there are things in place that if you look at it from clovers point of view, you can see how he may form that connection, a connection that if it were allowed time would need time to continue developing.>Also, I feel like it's worth pointing out as a counterpoint to the consistency argument that Martlet leaving Clover at the end of the dunes to go check in at her post is what allowed Ceroba to nearly succeed in taking Clover to the labso I want to point out again that this is from the perspective of clover. Martlet is a fuck up, a fuck up I love but still a fuck up, and a kid who already lived a life of neglect isn't going to see this as a strike against her. things that will affect a kid like that are if they decide to trust you and then you turn on them. Clover probably went through hell the moment Ceroba revealed the truth to her, and while I think personally he would ultimately spare her, he probably had a rough time of it.my ideal post game story is the characters in the cast coming to terms with how much of a fuck up they are and working on it because god damn they are a mess.dalvs kind of ok but he also hardly exists in the story.
>>3916033It was pretty cool, I tried to give both positive and negative feedback for the anon, but I hope it was helpful in some way to them.
>>3916035>but I want to justify it the best I can with my own understanding of child psychology having worked with children.I can respect that, genuinely, but I also feel like it's worth pointing out that children in the UTDR universe, even Clover as seen in multiple points of UTY, are just about the furthest thing from normal children that I can possibly imagine. Like, everyone already knows Frisk and Chara were weird fuck, but Clover's not too far off from them when you really think about it. I mean, they ventured alone to the top of a legendary mountain that no one is said to have ever returned alive from on a mission to hunt down five other people who went to the same mountain with a literal bounty for them with the explicit personal objective of getting "justice". Regardless of what kind of broken home Clover came from, there's a difference between just running away from home versus going on an ideological crusade you know you very well may not return alive from. Clover was an ideological sociopath the same way Frisk and Chara were, so I don't feel like it necessarily makes sense for them to have the same emotional responses to things as a normal child. I could perhaps see them respecting Martlet more on a personal level due to their fixation on the concept of justice, but I just feel like them seeing her as a parental figure is a bit more out there.Again, I could see that being fixed if the story had just made the two of them spend more actual time together, but as it stands I just feel like it doesn't make that much sense.
>>3916035>dalvs kind of ok but he also hardly exists in the story.Okay, side tangent here, but I feel like Dalv is the most justified in his actions towards Clover. First, he's the only one of the various cast members (aside from Flowey) to have actually encountered a human before the events of the game, and it was a pretty bad encounter. The human he met before presumably slaughtered dozens of monsters, and gave him severe mental trauma. Plus, the isolation of the dark ruins probably didn't help too much on the mental side of things. With all that in mind, I think it was pretty fair for him to see Clover and go "Oh no, not again".
>>3916041>(aside from Flowey)flowey never met a human before either (and likely didn't in UT either)
>>3916025I actually like the drawanon drew the unbirthing image open ended, that why it allows people to generate their own ideas in regards to what's happening between Zenith Martlet and Clover, and how it will ultimately be involved. What I like about all these interesting ideas being presented, especially in regards to them interacting in the mind, is that Martet is essentially doing something that in Flowey's case was pure mental fuckery, and using to something benevolent, even if she had to go a more forceful route to achieve it.I love that Martlet sticks to her guns, even after all the prejudice views that she was essentially beaten over the head, and seeing evidence to the claims. Even if she's upset, or sees a reason to kill, she desperate wants to help Clover, and give them a better life. That's why I can buy into the fact that even if she goes Zenith, if she can see it's possible to help Clover and stop him without killing him, despite how consumed with rage he is, she'll do it.I like idea that once she's absorbed his soul into herself, Martlet will go into Clover's memories just like how Clover did with her. But in her case instead of looking for a reason to condemn, she's looking to see if he wants to be saved, which is likely the memories he's keeping locked. Vengence Clover gives me the vibes of someone who knows what they're doing is ultimately an empty endeavour, but believes they have to keep going, because what else do they have.
>>3916039>Clover came from, there's a difference between just running away from home versus going on an ideological crusade you know you very well may not return alive from. Clover was an ideological sociopath the same way Frisk and Chara were, so I don't feel like it necessarily makes sense for them to have the same emotional responses to things as a normal child.Possibly, but the question asriel asks at the end of undertale "why did you climb a mountain no one returns from". you're left with the chance to fill that blank yourself. since we know that clover likely didn't come from a good background I see it as him trying to escape and find a purpose in life "even if it killed him". this also means that while children can accomplish crazy things in this world, in his heart he may still just want a place to belong, and the song that plays when he dies "a place to rest" I interpret as having the double meaning because of that. After all a child needs a home even if they become famous for doing great things.still, I understand what you are saying, and the game really drops the ball in how much time you actually spend with martlet as well as how many areas her "talk" option presents no new dialogue. Chara may well have been trying to commit suicide, Frisks motivations are up to us as a player in a way, but theres still that question that gets popped at the end, and now that just leaves clover, even if he was purely ideological, what drives a child to become like that.at the end of the day I hope you can at least see why I choose to believe in the interpretation I go with even if you sincerely disagree with it. I think Martlet for her part did care, and her offering clover a place to stay after throwing away the syringe at the end of neutral on her part is a good indication of her character growth in that route, but all the way throughout the game she has a hard time getting her ducks in a row.
>>3916045Okay, I could've been clearer on that, but I mean Flowey/Asriel.Technically speaking Flowey is more of a copy of Asriel's memories rather than a direct continuation of Asriel's consciousness, but I don't feel like getting into the vertiginous question right now, so for the purposes of my argument I'm considering Flowey and Asriel to effectively be the same one person.
>>3911382Artist?
>>3916046>I actually like the drawanon drew the unbirthing image open endedI do think thats good, and I don't want to sound like I'm bitching hoping he changes it. Its just since its open ended, and there are so many of those more unsavory things out there, I need to talk it out to come to terms with an interpretation that doesn't make me feel sick. its a bit lame but ultimately I've arrived on ideas that I enjoy.>but believes they have to keep going, because what else do they have.I was IMAGINING something along the lines of at the end of one of their fights flowey taunts him about how he's going to reset as many times as it takes to get him through this fight. Clovers just throws down his gun saying something to martlet as he's bleeding out about how "none of this matters, I'm trapped here" which makes martlet think twice, and start the whole absorbtion route instead.thats kind of a mess but the idea of how this could go different from a normal ending is interesting.
>>3916047Mm, I can respect that.I'm not being snarky or anything, I can genuinely see why you view the game's story this way, it's another instance of the game not quite doing something as well as it could've and wanting something more out of it.This particular example is at least an instance where the game actually did something with the idea but improperly executed it, unlike all that stuff people go on about with Kanako and the lab.I feel like it's also worth pointing out that I don't even necessarily dislike the idea of Clover being taken in by Martlet in general, it's moreso that I just don't like how clunkily the game itself handled this idea, and how much stuff in-game seems to run directly counter to it that just gets ignored by most people.
>>3916055>it's moreso that I just don't like how clunkily the game itself handled this ideawelcome to UTY and the reason these threads exist in the first place, this can be applied to almost the entire gameso close, yet so far
>>3916057in a way I'm glad, I wouldn't have been here for so long talking about the game with yall if it was just an open and shut case.
>>3916057>welcome to UTYOh trust me, I've been here a while.
>>3916039>>3916047Different anon here. From my take on the whole "would Clover see Martlet as a mother figure" subject, I do believe he would.As many have already expressed, with sentiments that I completely agree with, the Game really screw the pooch when it came to establishing that kind of relationship between them during the moments where they should have. The thing is Martlet and Clover were always supposed to have the kind of relationship. The two of them were supposed to have a very unique close bond. Which the devs themselves stated. The problem which was already clear by other anons, is that they leaned way to much into giving Ceroba all the spotlight, which predictably backfired hard. Say what you want about Undertale, but at least that game went out of it's way to give every main monster their moments. It's incredibly baffling that Ceroba was the only one to get a meticulous thought out multi-staged section in the game.I do believe that Clover is very affection starved, and likely believed he no place to call home, which is why he accepts Toriels offer in on of the previous runs. However in Martlet's case I think it's a lot deeper as to why he resonates with her so much, outside of them both sharing the similar values when it comes to Justice. To me it feels like Martlet is a reflection of Clover in many aspects, and it's because of that, despite how much of a screw up Martlet may appear to be, or how incapable she may appear to others, in Clover's eyes she's someone who genuinely wants what's best for him, and thus someone he can trust his wellbeing and life to.It says a lot that Flowey straight up admits that no matter what he does, and in all the possible variations that the neutral route can go, Clover always ends up choosing to stay with Martlet, even after doing an aborted Genocide.Martlet is the mother figure Clover wants. She doesn't have to be perfect. Her presence give Clover a peace of mind, and makes feel he's in a place he belongs.
>>3916065Honestly the fact that he stays with Toriel says a lot for him being affection starved. Even looking at Toriel generously, she's still stifling and then there's him not wearing his normal outfit with her. Someone said it best the other day that she would try to mold him into her perfect kid, and I think clover would go along with it just because of how much he wants to be loved. I think though that if toriel herself were to charge into the underground like she did for frisk (and its interesting to think of how she just failed to move forward for someone like Clover), he would still choose Martlet over her if he had the choice.I also think that the fact that in the fights against meta flowey, the way Clover is absolutely freaking the fuck out is connected to either Martlet dying, or perhaps Martlet dying while blaming him. I'd like to ask, how would Martlet in those absorption scenarios above react to seeing what Clover went through each time right after Flowey killed her. Even in her Zenith form, at her most confident I think that would rattle her badly.
>>3916065>and in all the possible variations that the neutral route can go, Clover always ends up choosing to stay with Martlet, even after doing an aborted Genocide.See, that's something I also don't really buy.You're telling me that Clover can go through the underground slaughtering every monster they come across, not giving a second thought to any of them the entire time as they continue on their crusade, only to completely bend the knee and give up the second a monster they spent a total of five minutes with offers them some compassion, despite the fact that they spent the aforementioned five minutes together trying to kill each other?That makes no sense to me, at all, that is beyond forced. It especially makes no sense in the true genocide route, where Clover specifically uses their power to see into Martlet's mind to try and find a justification for killing her, finds nothing to go off of, and just decides to kill her anyway. They have enough of a connection with her for her to be the only monster they bother to try and justify killing, but not enough to not kill her when they don't find anything? Seriously?It would've made more sense both thematically and for their supposed relationship if Clover instead searched Martlet's mind for justification, found nothing, and then refused to kill her because of that, like an actual adherence to their ideology.
You know, I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen a story or AU or whatever with multiple Floweys. Asriel died in that flower garden, and there's no way his dust only landed on one flower in particular, so technically speaking you should be able to create another instance of Flowey by injecting any of those flowers with DT.
>>3916069the biggest Flowey would just eat the smaller ones
>>3916072Did this really need to turn into vore selfcest right out the gate?
>>3916069I think TS!Underswap is the closest to that idea, having an entire group of characters (the Temmies) that fit the role of Flowey
>>3916052Making the image open ended was incredibly smart, as those kinds of images invite discussion, and make you explore the possibilities of whatever idea comes to mind. Like you said, while unbirth being theme may not be your cup of tea, you were able to interpret it in any a way that you liked, that also you made invested and interested in the ideas presented.What's interesting about Zenith Martlet going down the unbirthing/absorption route down the line, is that there are so many potential triggers that could cause her to decide to do it. Clover offhandedly saying it doesn't matter could one. Martlet sensing Clover's in turmoil despite his actions could be another. Martlet sensing hesitation, anguish etc...There's so many possibilities or variations that leads up to her having Clover being reborn, and her helping him to heal from all the psychologically damage that's been inflicted upon him.
>>3916075Oh yeah, that. So are Temmies still Asriel or something, or is he somewhere else? Actually, if this is Underswap, who the hell is Asriel anyway? Who's he swapped with?
>>3916077I think asriel is still alive and well in TS!US, at least I saw a screenshot of him and they made him pretty much an asgore clone
>>3916077each Temmie represents a different human soul, I think Asriel swaps with monster kid? Flowey still exists in TS!Underswap and Asriel is still alive, he works as a comic book artist
>>3916067I don't have time to double check right now but I think this is very relevant. the difference in Clovers LV from a maxed out Neutral route vs a genocide route I think is like 6 LV. I think he's depicted as almost being Drunk on LV as the Genocide route continues which has a huge impact on how I view his actions. again I may be off on the exact numbers, but I know its multiple LV different
>>3916080>Flowey still exists in TS!Underswap and Asriel is still aliveWait, so who the hell is Flowey then, just some random dickhead? Also, do the Temmies merely *represent* the human souls, or are they actually the souls themselves or something?
>>3916081this is also relevant to a recent discussion where someone asked why one monster is the difference between martlet attacking you as zenith and giving you a shot. The fight with Axis is the last thing before you encounter her, there's a very clear difference in clover if he obliterates Axis there.
>>3916081Even if there's a difference, that's still ultimately a difference between a committed super-murderer versus a slightly less thorough super-murderer. The difference between an aborted genocide Clover and a true genocide Clover can be as little as two kills, I feel like that's a thinner margin than you're making it out to be, and that still doesn't even address the problem in the former scenario of Clover crying over the death of someone they barely knew and spent all their time trying to kill at the hands of someone who's done nothing but help them along their insane murderous rampage thus far. It makes no sense in the context of the game's story, it's inconsistent in a really bad way.
>>3916083>Wait, so who the hell is Flowey then, just some random dickhead?I think Flowey is Monster Kid in TS!Underswap but I'm not sure>or are they actually the souls themselves or something?one npc or item description in TS!Underswap mentions that Toriel cremated the bodies of all the fallen humans, from that we can asume that the Temmies are plushies with the creamted human ash spread on them and injected with determination.
>>3916067NTA. I can buy into it because Flowey's essentially keeping a stable loop. Outside of certain factors, certain things are always going to play out similar to what happens before. Clover's personality, his mindset, his goals, and his actions will largely remain the same, unless an outside factor causes an expected change. Like how some people have suggested, the constant trauma of doing Neutral so many times, and seeing Martlet die countless times, subconsciously causes him to go on a Genocide Route. And just like how after completing a Genocide Route, he resets and does a Pacifist, instead of Neutral.Since we know Clover does in fact have a form a ripple proof memory, from Flowey's own statements, it makes sense that even after a reset he would subconsciously go to Martlet, and ultimately end up choosing to stay with her just like how he did in a previous run. If anything Flowey Reset constantly would only make this subconscious feeling stronger.
>>3916089>one npc or item description in TS!Underswap mentions that Toriel cremated the bodies of all the fallen humans, from that we can asume that the Temmies are plushies with the creamted human ash spread on them and injected with determination.
>>3916088>I feel like that's a thinner margin than you're making it out to be,again LV 13 vs lv 19, and clover gains the ability from just one of those kills to shoot giant lasers capable of tearing apart steel. We already know that LV is how much you can distance yourself from others, how easily you can bring yourself to hurt, and those 2 kills tip clover over a ledge that is plainly obvious to Martlet. She's willing to give him a chance despite the atrocities so its not the number of kills, its who clover becomes after those kills that convince her that the good in him is dead.In fact the more I think about it, this is one of the more consistent things in yellow. its not like sans letting frisk pass at lv 18 (we know sans has his own motivations and is kind of a shitty person regardless). this is Clover night and day being a different person before and after those two kills, and its set up by his pure rage when Axis says those fated words. I actually can't see where you're coming from here when the game made a point to depict clover mechanically and narratively losing his shit and painting the walls with Axis to reach LV 19.
>>3916091>Like how some people have suggested, the constant trauma of doing Neutral so many times, and seeing Martlet die countless times, subconsciously causes him to go on a Genocide Route....Wouldn't it make more sense for Clover to be angry at Flowey? I mean, first off, UTY doesn't really play around with the idea of characters remembering things from previous loops as much as UT did, but even if we're considering that here, why would watching Martlet die, and the trauma inflicted on them from the neutral ending, both things that are Flowey's doing, cause Clover to kill everyone *else*? Like, are you suggesting this is like a Dusttale situation, where Clover's actually playing the long game to try and get more DT than Flowey so they can take away control of the timeline? That feels extremely out of character for them and would imply they know way more about how the time powers work than they logically would, but that's about the only way I could see that argument working.
>>3916094I mean that's how I remember it, Toriel in TS!Underswap is more ruthless than Asgore, she cremates the bodies because apparently sometimes human bodies can move without their soul, and I don't remember the details but I think you get a temmie plushy at some point too, which explains why every human had one and why their ash was spread on them,Its basically the same process used to create Flowey, but with plushies and human ash instead of monster dust and a flower
>>3916039>Regardless of what kind of broken home Clover came from, there's a difference between just running away from home versus going on an ideological crusade you know you very well may not return alive from.This literally happened in history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children's_CrusadeIf Clover was Christian he would be the kind to sacrifice himself to save the Holy Land.>As many have already expressed, with sentiments that I completely agree with, the Game really screw the pooch when it came to establishing that kind of relationship between them during the moments where they should have. The thing is Martlet and Clover were always supposed to have the kind of relationship. The two of them were supposed to have a very unique close bond. Which the devs themselves stated. The problem which was already clear by other anons, is that they leaned way to much into giving Ceroba all the spotlight, which predictably backfired hard. Say what you want about Undertale, but at least that game went out of it's way to give every main monster their moments. It's incredibly baffling that Ceroba was the only one to get a meticulous thought out multi-staged section in the game.Agreed. I'm glad the game was released at last, and feels finished enough for most of its parts, but doing a deeper dive reveals what parts were rushed. Also as to your point about Martlet resonating with Clover, they have many of the same struggles. She doesn't seem to suffer from issues of isolation or neglect but we never hear mention of her family and she wants to find belonging, first with the Royal Guard and then by helping Clover. Clover sees in her a friend, and if not a mother, an older sister.>>3916069I'd prefer one where Alphys injects DT into different types of specimens like we see in Flowey's fight. They could each be unique.
>>3916100>and the trauma inflicted on them from the neutral ending, both things that are Flowey's doing, cause Clover to kill everyone *else*?a sense of helplessness and lashing out due to the trauma. Severely traumatized people do not always lash out "logically" and what can clover even do to flowey? its not like he knows about the power he's going to get over flowey at the end of the genocide run. Realistically coming within seconds of everything he's ever wanted over and over again only to have it ripped away from him, while an unstoppable god laughs in his face may make him just crash and burn taking the world around him with him. With it only being distant echos, he may just become more violent as he tears the underground apart. if anything the fact that he fills Flowey full of lead the moment he DOES have the power to says something. He hates that fucking flower in the genocide route with how he treats Flowey
>>3916102>She doesn't seem to suffer from issues of isolation or neglect but we never hear mention of her family and she wants to find belonging,its also possible that her confidence issues started in her home life in the same way that people say Berdly's issues may come from his parents not giving him attention.
>>3916097>again LV 13 vs lv 19, and clover gains the ability from just one of those kills to shoot giant lasers capable of tearing apart steel.Clover's ability to shoot those magic projectiles is already pretty inconsistent, like how they can shoot them just fine in their fight against Ceroba, but seemingly can't in their fight against Asgore in the flawed pacifist ending, so I feel like that's not a particularly useful measure of strength.>how easily you can bring yourself to hurt, and those 2 kills tip clover over a ledge that is plainly obvious to Martlet.I still think that's bullshit, given how many people you have to kill to even get to that point. Hell, if we're specifically talking about aborting genocide in the steamworks, that means all the innocent people are already in the rearview mirror by that point, the only people left to not kill are just robots, so all the major bad's already been done. The problem here is that the game deciding that there's an arbitrary event horizon at those last two kills is stupid, because they've already killed the better part of a hundred people by that point, there is no good left in a person like that. >we know sans has his own motivations and is kind of a shitty person regardlessFor the shit you're giving Sans here, he's a way better judge of character. He doesn't fight you at any LV below 19 because he knows there's no point, but he doesn't pretend you're anything other than a completely disgusting person in those instances. He'll cut you some slack for a single kill, he even says you may have done it in self-defense, but anything past that and he sees you for what you are. 78 kills is 78 kills, 78 people dead because of your direct actions, the game saying "oh but actually they still have some good left in them because they didn't vaporize every roomba they found in that abandoned factory" is fucking stupid, and beyond forced.
>>3916106>Severely traumatized people do not always lash out "logically" and what can clover even do to flowey?Clover couldn't do anything to Flowey, but like you just said, severely traumatized people don't lash out logically, so why wouldn't any of that be directed at the person who's actually responsible instead of literally everyone else they meet?Even if it didn't mean anything, why not? If you're saying they're doing what they're doing out of desperation and irrationality, why is it all directed at everything other than the thing that's causing them all their problems to begin with?
>>3916101Well, that's certainly creative, I'll give the AU that.So, back to the other thing, why is Monster Kid Flowey? How the hell'd he end up like that?
>>3916113>So, back to the other thing, why is Monster Kid Flowey? How the hell'd he end up like that?We have no idea yet, we'll have to WAIT to see how they explain it.
>>3916109>Clover's ability to shoot those magic projectiles is already pretty inconsistent, like how they can shoot them just fine in their fight against Ceroba, but seemingly can't in their fight against Asgore in the flawed pacifist ending, so I feel like that's not a particularly useful measure of strength.I think the magnitude in power difference between the ones he shoots at that time at all, and the ones he busts out as he gets the rage boost against axis are pretty clear.he also loses his dash powers when he goes to face asgore, almost like he feels like absolute shit after having to kill Ceroba.> the game deciding that there's an arbitrary event horizon at those last two kills is stupid,its not arbitrary, Killing axis if he could have managed to do it without the boost wouldn't have been enough to bring him to LV 19, he also didn't get that LV from killing Axis, Axis dying doesn't increase his LV, he shoots up to 19 before firing the shot. That was the point of no return for him, where the last vestige or chance someone like him could show mercy evaporated.this is clearly telegraphed in game. Clover changes in that moment and its shown narratively and mechanically. Its about more than just the number of people. you calling it forced makes genuinely no sense to me because the playing field being worked with here is different than the difference between frisk at lv 18 and 19, its the difference between someone who could change even if they dont deserve the chance, and someone who's not only decided the world must burn, but just gained the power to make that happen all in the same instance.
>>3916111>Clover couldn't do anything to Flowey, but like you just said, severely traumatized people don't lash out logically, so why wouldn't any of that be directed at the person who's actually responsible instead of literally everyone else they meet?he does lash out at flowey too though, he just can't do anything lasting to flowey until the end. He clearly shows his hatred of the flower in genocide.
>>3916100You have to remember that Clover's ripple proof memory isn't as effective as Frisk's or Flowey's.When Flowey kills Martlet during any Neutral Run, Clover is furious at him. He's enraged that Flowey killed her. He wants to kill him. All those raws emotions that Clover is feeling in that moment, he wouldn't remember them fully, or the exactly reason why he's feeling that way when Flowey resets.But we do know that when a reset happens, Clover does subconsciously remember what happened in a previous run. So if we take that into account, and all the countless Neutral resets that are happening, all that subconscious trauma would build up. All that anger, and rage will be there, but Clover wouldn't know the exact cause.As for why Clover would decided to kill everyone. If you remember, Clover originally jumped into the Underground to find the missing humans in a place where monsters reside. So if he woke up one day in the underground full of subconscious trauma, and rage, without really knowing the cause, other than being here makes me angry, it makes perfect sense that he would associate those feelings towards the monsters in the underground.Plus in a Vengeance Route Clover treats Flowey like shit. So even if he didn't know the exact reason why, subconsciously Clover would dislike him, or have a lot of ill will towards him.
>>3916116>he does lash out at flowey too though, he just can't do anything lasting to flowey until the end. He clearly shows his hatred of the flower in genocide.In genocide, yes, but we're talking about other loops, and at no point in another route of the game other than in the Meta-Flowey fight does Clover ever act against Flowey in any way, shape, or form. None of this supposed trauma, built up over god knows how many resets, is ever directed at the person responsible for it. The only real actions Clover takes against Flowey is as retaliation for things Flowey's doing to them right then and there, like when they fight back when Flowey tries to take their soul, or when they kill him at the end of the genocide route.
>>3916120yes because the theory is that the genocide route happens when this unremembered trauma hits a breaking point. that's the core idea of this whole thing anon. its formed from the idea that even if YOUR first run through the game is a genocide route, its already been confirmed at that point that flowey has run clover through numerous resets at that point.
>>3916115>its not arbitrary, Killing axis if he could have managed to do it without the boost wouldn't have been enough to bring him to LV 19,It is arbitrary, because they get a sudden boost completely out of nowhere just from getting really pissed off, when LV is shown to be tied to the actual amount of EXP you have from killing people, but also because it implies the difference between being able to change and being unable isn't how many innocent people you've senselessly killed for no reason, it's how pissed off you are at one particular moment in time. >you calling it forced makes genuinely no sense to meSee, the issue here is that you seem to think my problem is that the game doesn't illustrate *why* Clover suddenly becomes irredeemable, when my actual issue is that the game *does* show why, and the reason is completely fucking retarded.79 kills, almost all of which are completely innocent people who did nothing to deserve being slaughtered? A-Okay, just needs some love from bird mommy and they'll be just fine! 80 kills and being really pissed off? Turbo Hitler, unsalvageably evil, pure malice incarnate.That's stupid. This writing is stupid.Also, say, if LV and EXP apparently aren't tied to the actual number of kills you have, why didn't Clover get a big Zenkai when they saw Asgore bring out the souls? They're clearly pretty pissed off, they draw their gun first and everything, so why wasn't that enough? Or why didn't they get a boost when Flowey kills Martlet in front of them, if they have oh-so much pent-up trauma and anger from seeing that happen over and over again, as you said they do? They got mad enough at Axis to jump from LV 13 to 19 just from being mad enough, so why can't they pull that off anywhere else? Hell, I'm pretty sure you can get to Martlet on the rooftop at LV 13, so it's not like you can't meet the LV requirement or whatever bullshit system we're operating on here.It's arbitrary. It's completely internally inconsistent with itself.
so how long do you think clover would be obsessed with cowboys if he lived, kids usually grow out of that kind of thing
>>3916126Eh, depends. Has he gotten a new Buzz Lightyear yet?
>>3916125>See, the issue here is that you seem to think my problem is that the game doesn't illustrate *why* Clover suddenly becomes irredeemable, when my actual issue is that the game *does* show why, and the reason is completely fucking retarded.the problem is you keep using the word arbitrary when thats not what arbitrary means and so I'm arguing against a misunderstanding. the game clearly shows us what and why so its not arbitrary by definition. it being stupid to you is a completely different discussion and I just don't agree with you on it, which is ok.for the second part of what you said though, I think its clearly because as I said earlier, he's drunk on LV at that point, its easier to gain more LV when you already have some , its easier to become more willing to kill when you've already been killing. and again, the idea is that the genocide route is only happening once he hits that amount of built up trauma and hatred. He doesn't slide off into 20 lv versus asgore because he's someone who's clearly already heavily broken up over killing a single person. thats not the type of mindset that someone goes into a murderous rage off of.For the record, I don't mean any of this in a patronizing way or anything, but when you use arbitrary I really feel like you're using the wrong word there.
>>3915907My request would be Clover's pov as he's being turned into bird monster either by Martlet or Zenith Martlet.
>>3916129>you keep using the word arbitrary when thats not what arbitrary means and so I'm arguing against a misunderstanding.I mean the word arbitrary specifically in the sense that the game shows something happening as the result of a specific set of circumstances, and yet the same thing doesn't happen when those same circumstances are met in a different scenario.Really, the comparison between the events with Clover and Axis in a genocide route and Clover and Flowey in an aborted-genocide route are extremely similar, and even more so if we're going off the idea that Clover's acting off of lots of mental trauma from previous loops, but they play out completely differently for seemingly no reason.I'm serious, I want a real answer to this that aligns with what the game shows and tells us. If Clover was able to jump from LV 13 to 19, purely based on their own emotions from their encounter with Axis, why don't they do the same thing at the same LV when they see Martlet die at Flowey's hands, when they supposedly have such a deep connection with her that transcends even the countless resets they've been going through? Extreme emotions, high LV, someone to directly target their emotions towards, same situations, completely different results.Why? It's arbitrary. There isn't an in-universe explanation here, the writers just thought it would be cool to have Clover get a massive power boost by being pissed off, and didn't think about what that would actually imply about other points in the story.As for the irredeemability thing, that's still arbitrary because it itself is based on a writing decision that is also entirely arbitrary.UT handled the threshold well by not making it about how good or bad you are, but by making it about what'll actually happen if you go through with it, UTY handles it by having a character decide whether or not there's still good in someone who's emptied out entire towns of people. That's stupid.
To take a break from arguing about bullshit, I just wanna say I'm kinda surprised I haven't seen a UTY version of that one drawover meme from that Law and Order episode.You know, the one about videogames causing violence or whatever, where that one guy tries to shoot a cop because he learned how to do it from playing videogames?I could see that working with Clover as the pov, Flowey as the cop, and Martlet as the guy on the ground.
>>3916136As funny as it is, I'm not sure people would remember a meme from 11 years ago.
>>3916138Eh, I feel like I've seen stranger UTY meme pulls than that.I mean, there's the MGS4 drawovers, I feel like those are a bit of a stretch.And I made those ones.
>>3916136>ACTUALLY ITS EXACTLY THE SAMEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Man1oy4Xh_0
>>3916141Honestly if I had a good idea how to make the background look like it's on top of the apartment rooftop, I'd try my hand at making a shitty edit.
>>3916142I mean, it's already an apartment rooftop, it'd mostly be nailing the underground "sky"
>>3916143Yeah, that's what I meant, sorry if that wasn't clear. I guess I also have to find a good way to swap the gun the guy already has for a revolver, that seems harder.
>>3916144I'm too lazy for it but GIMP has a really good Foreground select tool that makes it pretty easy to do something like snipping out the guy's hand and the roof he's on.
>>3916146Oh, I already got the hand separated from the roof, I just need a good image of a revolver being held in the same way to edit over the magnum.
>>3916143This reminds me of one of Francis E. Dec, Esq.'s rants and now I want to rewrite one as if Chujin wrote it.
>>3916134>If Clover was able to jump from LV 13 to 19, purely based on their own emotions from their encounter with Axis, why don't they do the same thing at the same LV when they see Martlet die at Flowey's hands, when they supposedly have such a deep connection with her that transcends even the countless resets they've been going through?I've given some reasons through the discussion but I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this part, and I'm not going to consider that a foul against either of us. I feel like the genocide route was one of the more consistent things yellow pulled off, but I suppose this is one of those cases where there are different aspect of the game that we each feel could have gone differently. I'm not meaning to disengage completely here, but I do think our view on those segments is just fundamentally different.
>>3916148NTA, but is that the post you meant to reply to?
>>3916138I member
>>3916148Do it
>>3916150>I'm not meaning to disengage completely hereNo, that's fair, I'm kinda checked out of this too if I'm being honest.I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.Man, not having a good gif of that scene from MIB 3 continues to sting even now.
>>3916151Does it actually matter if you're not that guy?
>>3916151Yes because the rant also talks about the sky being fake.>>3916154Remind me after I finish my short story. I don't want to keep putting it off.
>>3916156
>>3916157>Remind me after I finish my short story. I don't want to keep putting it off.Remind you of what?
so I know reddit is reddit, and I'm not going to get into a whole thing about their ocs and all that nonsense because that all really should just stay in the trash, but every few days I check pretty much every source I can for any new pieces of art, and in the process I get exposed to some of what they make there. It just makes me think that I'd take even the most absurd or uncomfortable ideas anons may come up with here over a single one of their sprite comics any day god damn. "clover in hell" or any of the other equally absurd misery porns they come up with just genuinely put me in a bad mood. At least when anons come up with something dark here its 5 times more coherent and usually has a fucking point.and I know, "why would you even go there." I'm not going to miss any chance to find good art in a niche fandom like this even if I have to swim down to the challenger deep once a month to find it
>>3916162MASTER RACE FRANKENSTEIN RADIO CONTROLS>>3916163They are internally miserable and so project that misery outwards as a way of coping, instead of putting in the effort to find hope. I know anons who have horrible lives irl yet they keep hope in their hearts.
>>3916163I get that people are having their ability to post or attach images pulled, but it seems a little silly to go digging around reddit for fan art.
>>3916169the art posted by anons here is what I look forward to the most yes, but if a good artist happens to post there, or one of the miserable people there found an artist I didn't know about then I have to accept that burden.>>3916168I can see that, I've seen anons here come up with some terribly sad stories, but it always feels like there's a point, a reason I am being made to suffer. This is the only place I will actually engage with in discussion in the fandom, everywhere else is just a source.
>>3916168>MASTER RACE FRANKENSTEIN RADIO CONTROLSI don't understand.
>>3916172famous schizophrenic rant that was read by a radio host in ye olden days. Its something else
>>3916173Okay, but why do I have to remind you or whoever that was about that? Why was that reply made to my post back there?I'm not seeing the connective thread here, why am I being conscripted?
>>3916176You're replying to a different anon, I'm writeranon. I think an edit would be funny but I'm not doing all that now when I can write about bird romance. You're not being conscripted. I'll just try to remember.
>>3916176I just saw "frankenstein radio controls" and "I dont understand" and started typing without thinking
>>3916179I don't know what's happening anymore, I'm gonna go live in a shack in the woods forever.
>>3909894Momlet
>>3916190why is this so compressed
The talk about Martlet going through Clover's memories after absorbing him made me want to try something with it really quick.>Martlet traversed a forest road deep within Clover’s memories as she searched for answers. No matter how dangerous the Clover had proven himself to be, she refused to believe that this was normal for a child, even if he was human. The road between the tree twisted and turned, gravel covered up by ash and dust in places. She could feel Clover’s presence somewhere in this place, but he remained silent, distant. Even after she had absorbed his soul, there was a barrier within where he fought to keep his thoughts separate from here. It didn’t matter how much he fought her now though, she was determined to get answers; whether he cooperated or not. >She trudged on in silence as the dead trees around her loomed overhead when she heard snow crunching from behind her. Instinct flared as she turned around ready to send magic crashing into her follower even in this ephemeral place, but she stopped cold in her tracks spotting herself standing some 20 feet away. It was herself as she was before the serum.>Standing in the road with a smile, the doppleganger called out, “Clover it’s you, I can’t believe it!” As the fake spoke Martlet was confused, was this one of Clover’s memories? She almost sounded… happy to see the human. “I’m so glad I found you!” The memory ran forward as Martlet kept her guard up. Something was wrong here, she didn’t remember anything like this happening. Then it happened, as the other Martlet went to hug her, she had terrible pits where her eyes should have been, “Found you. Found… you. F O U N D Y O U”. Martlet leapt back as ice gripped her heart, the memory before her quickly shifted into something nightmarish, her face tearing open revealing a massive eye bulging from her skull.
>>3916195>Martlet’s heart raced as the terrible thing shuffled towards her, then from around her she heard more voices faintly mumbling, “found you, found you, found you.” a chant from all directions as more of these terrible memories, hundreds of them started dragging themselves towards her from the trees. Clover’s memories shambled closer as the chanting grew louder with their numbers. Martlet took off soaring into the sky trying to make sense of things, but as she launched above the trees, up and down suddenly flipped, sending her tumbling into a crash landing, the forest melting into something new around her. >As she pulled herself to her feet she recognized the place instantly, it was the rooftop she fought Clover on.
>>3915907Hey Drawanon, I'm not sure if you're here or not, or if you've been following along the discussion. But I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on the subject of Martlet or Zenith unbirthing Clover, and having being reborn as a monster through her, as the interesting direction between Zartlet and Clover.As I'm sure you've seen, your unbirthing drawings are not only popular, but have also spawned many interesting discussions about the the subject. In part because of your open ended approach to how you draw the images.Congrats on that by way, cause I'm sure more discussions, ideas, and other stuff will spawn from the to.In any case, do you think you could share your thoughts on the subject, as well as your thoughts on the relationship between Zenith Martlet and Clover in this scenario, and Zenith herself.
>>3916195>>3916196This was a good read, and you should absolutely continue this. Just from this alone I'm interested in seeing how Zenith Martlet and Clover will interact when she starts delving in deeper seeing more of the stuff that's damaged his mind.
>>3916225Thank you, I've got some ideas if I get a chance to spend some more time on it. I've got another story I'm working on, but the discussion got me really thinking about how this could go.
You know, I'm kinda surprised that as few as seven humans fell into the underground after Chara. We know for a fact that radio waves can pass through the barrier, as evidenced by the fact that you actually receive Sans' phone call, so I feel like it'd be really easy for a monster to just start a radio broadcast from the underground to try and lure some humans in.
>>3916246Technically at least as far as base game undertale implies you literally only ever exit the underground on a pacifist playthrough.Every other state leaves you still stuck in the underground.
>>3911266Papyrus
>>3916248I dunno about that, it seems like Frisk manages to get out of the underground in pretty much every neutral route. Remember, Frisk's always on the other side of the barrier room after Flowey's dealt with, there's nothing stopping them from just walking out they same way they do in pacifist, they just can't go back for whatever reason.
>>3912759Last January i dreamt Martlet, Ceroba, Dalv and Starlo were in Saul Goodman's office, which had been converted into a reception area for a railroad museum. Starlo was super excited while Ceroba was still depressed over Chujin, Clover and Kanako. Martlet said something along the lines of "This experience might cheer you up, Ceroba!" but it just ended up making her want to kill herself even more. The scene then changed to a line of locomotives pulling a freight train out of the museum's station, being driven by Bugs Bunny in a Victorian- era dress. As the train went over a bridge overlooking the Steamworks, which had inexplicably been moved above ground, Stan Smith burst into the cab and started an intense brawl with him, sort of like the giant chicken fight sequences from Family Guy. The train started going down a hill which somehow transitioned to the streets of San Francisco as they fought, and eventually flew off a pier into the ocean, which was only about knee-deep. The last thing I saw before waking up as Bugs and Stan bailed out before the train crashed.
Do you think people living in the UT world realize that combat in their universe works like a game? Not just in the sense of them realizing the specific mechanics of how combat works for them, but like, that combat is literally a bullet hell game?Like, the way people living in the Yu-Gi-Oh! world realize that Duel Monsters is a literal children's card game, that also happens to be used to settle life and death disputes?
>>3916266Look I don't want to be mean about it, I get it, Undertale came out 10 years ago.But they cover this in game, man.Monsters like sending bullet patterns to each other as salutations.
>>3916267Yeah, as salutations, but they don't seem to view it as a *literal* game to them, it's just something they can do. Also, monster's bullet patterns is something that could pretty easily exist outside the limitations of something that works like a game, but how about the turn system? How about the fact that people just stand across from each other without actually moving as they fight each other like a fucking stand battle?As far as I know neither of those are addressed in-game, so I think my question is still valid.
>>3916268>but how about the turn system?Mad Dummy and Sans both directly reference the turn system
>>3916269Okay, that one's my bad, but I still don't think the fact that all battles happen while both parties remain perfectly still is ever referred to.Anyway, my point is, I feel like it's weird that some mechanics of the battle system are known about, but the obvious conclusion that it's effectively a game isn't as talked about in-universe, it's just combat to them.
>>3916270>but I still don't think the fact that all battles happen while both parties remain perfectly still is ever referred to.They don't.Like it's explicitly brought up that sans tries to force you to be unable to move by refusing to end his turn, and frequently dialog about what Frisk and monsters are doing is stated during their turns.
>>3916271>and frequently dialog about what Frisk and monsters are doing is stated during their turns.For small things, sure, like ACTs or random flavor text, but what is Frisk actually doing during most fights? Most enemy bullet patterns require moving through the middle of the bullet box to dodge them, what does that actually mean in-universe? Is Frisk flying around to avoid being hit by projectiles? is Frisk just standing around while the soul moves around completely independent of them, are they moving with it, how does that work? What do all the different soul modes look like in-universe? Why does every enemy except Sans stay in-place as you attack them, instead of actually dodging your attacks?This feels like a weird system to have in the context of the universe, unless it was actively acknowledged by all parties involved as a literal, actual game, the rules of which they adhere to for whatever reason, like with Duel Monsters.
>>3916272>Is Frisk flying around to avoid being hit by projectiles?Deltarune answers this with the overworld bullet obstacles, Frisk moves and his soul moves with him, the battle system only shows Frisk's souls since the rest of the body isn't relevant>What do all the different soul modes look like in-universe?blue is manipulating gravity, green makes you unable to move and forces you to block (Undyne gives you a spear to block), purple is being binded by webs and yellow is just a cellphone that turns into a gun>Why does every enemy except Sans stay in-place as you attack them, instead of actually dodging your attacks?It could be that most monsters just suck at dodging, Frisk is too fast, or they aren't used to dodging physical attacks, according to Undyne Asgore could dodge her attacks.I think battles in Undertale are like domain expansions in JJK, once you start a battle you must adhere to the rules, you could ignore them like Sans does but that requires meta knowledge
>>3916274>Deltarune answers this with the overworld bullet obstaclesDeltarune doesn't necessarily work in the same way, and Kris and the Soul are much less connected to each other than Frisk and the soul seem to be, so I'm not sure that's a 100% apt comparison.>Frisk moves and his soul moves with him, the battle system only shows Frisk's souls since the rest of the body isn't relevantOkay, but like I brought up earlier, doesn't that imply Frisk can literally fly? The fact that there's an entire soul mode dedicated to keeping Frisk's soul on the ground seems to imply that they don't usually have to adhere to gravity the rest of the time.>I think battles in Undertale are like domain expansions in JJKHm. I guess that works, but the exact mechanics of how this all would work in-universe still seem strange.
>>3916276>Okay, but like I brought up earlier, doesn't that imply Frisk can literally fly?I think blue soul is less "adding gravity" and more like "binding you to one of the four walls of the battle box" since Sans can change the gravity's direction, I still think Frisk is moving in the X and Z axis and never jumps during fights>but the exact mechanics of how this all would work in-universe still seem strange.Everything in Undertale is very strange since Toby made some gameplay mechanics a canon part of the world but didn't explain all of them, like, how does the inventory work? there is no way frisk can carry that much stuff in their pockets, and why exactly 8 spaces? some items would be much bigger than other and much easier to store too, there is no way a bow takes the same amount of space as a gun
>>3916277>there is no way frisk can carry that much stuff in their pockets, and why exactly 8 spaces?Maybe Frisk uses a sylladex.
>>3916248It could be read that way, but you can't prove that definitively, and its easier to read it as though you have left the underground.
>>3916266No, because for them real life came first. So they'd just think that art imitates life. There are a lot of things irl that resemble video games, but that's because games are made to resemble them, not the other way around, and if it were the other way around,we'd have no way of knowing, since we'd have no frame of reference to see it by.
>>3916219Yep I've been here, and following along the discussions!And sure I'd be happy to share my thoughts.First of, I should say thank you to everyone, because your interest in what I've drawn, as well as the discussions that came from them, makes drawing the images even more enjoyable.As many have noticed, whenever I drew all the unbirthing images with Martlet and Clover, especially in Zenith Martlet's case, I left it open ended for people to form their own ideas, in regards to what lead up to it, as well as how the two of them interact, and what sorts of things could happen later.I know a lot people associate Martlet going Zenith as her going full kill mode, and showing no mercy, but I personally never saw it like that. To me Martlet going Zenith, was her saying I'm willing to do what's necessary, and give it my all. Whether she's in her normal form or Zenith, Martlet is still Martlet, and like some other anons have said, if she could sense that Clover can be helped, even during his most troubled state, she'd absolutely do it. Killing seems to be something of a last resort to her, and I do believe even when she goes Zenith, while she is willing to kill Clover, like some have mentioned here, if she sensed there was something deeper to Clover's behaviour than what was on the surface, she'd definitely go the more merciful route to stop him.In this case you could look at her unbirthing Clover as her most effective solution to the problem. She doesn't want to kill him so she can help him, but she has to stop him because he's so consumed by his built trauma. This way he's subdued within her, as she's taken in his soul, giving her all the time in the world to talk to him within their minds, so can she help him heal through all the mental damage, then she can go about having him being reborn as monster, so she can give him a better life that he never got to live, not influenced by all the trauma that lead him down a dark path.
>>3916410I'm not the anon that asked you that, but now I'm motivated to try and turn my little greentext above into a full story. Your art and words have reached my cold android soul.
>>3916410Hope you do the Sadie one. She's got a cute design
>>3916410>if she could sense that Clover can be helped, even during his most troubled state, she'd absolutely do it.Obviously I'm NTA, but I still think it's a little stupid to refer to someone with such a high body count as being "troubled", like they're just a moody teen with some anger issues, as opposed to being a mass murderer.
>>3916428Generally mass murderers are actually quite troubled, and its amazing how often when we go into the histories of these people that their terrible actions had roots in horrendous abuse. I think considering Clover for a second chance is fair considering the absolute insanity he had to go through at floweys hands over and over again.
>>3916430>Generally mass murderers are actually quite troubled,You know, this reminds me of that one bit from Castlesuperbeast, where Pat talks about the psychology of bullies, and while he spends some time debunking the idea that bullies tend to be insecure or have shitty home lives, he also talks about the implications of if that idea was actually true, and I feel the same way he does.That I don't care. Nothing could ever make me care.It doesn't matter how much of a victim you are, or how fucked up your home life is, or what you've been through. None of that matters the second you start victimizing other people who had nothing to do with your pain. That's when you stop being the victim and start being just another perpetrator.There is no way back to being "good" after that, nothing's just going to undo all the pain you've caused. Maybe you can do better, but nothing's ever going to wipe the slate clean again, you made your choices.
>>3916411I wish you the best of luck on your story! I'm happy that my art and words inspired you to do this, and from what I've read of your greentext you have very interesting ideas inspired from what I've drawn.I hope it all goes well, and I hope my art inspires more to do the same be that fanarts of what I've drawn or fics.>>3916428If a kid suddenly showed up in the Undertale full of rage and unresolved trauma, who because of that lashed out and started killing indiscriminately, I would look at them as being very troubled, because that isn't normal, and a very big cause of concern.As another anon here said, it honestly feels like Clover forces himself to go on this empty endeavour, because without it he has nothing other than the feeling of being empty and without purpose or belonging.
>>3916446>where Pat talks about the psychology of bullies, and while he spends some time debunking the idea that bullies tend to be insecure or have shitty home lives, he also talks about the implications of if that idea was actually true, and I feel the same way he does.>That I don't care. Nothing could ever make me care.that's an absurd mindset because first of all murderers aren't the same as simple bullies, and the correlation DOES exist for killers even if it doesn't for bullies. its important to be aware of in society in general because the way you stop someone from becoming like this in the first place is by recognizing the signs and what causes it, and someone who was twisted into something terrible by circumstances out of their control deserves sympathy even if they have to be put in the dirt, else we forsake recognizing what brought us here. there's all sorts of talk of free will and things like that, but the reality is if you lock a young child in a closet for years they'll be impaired, they can't just choose to not have the developmental consequences from that, and the same goes for many other forms of abuse and neglect, of which even if we assume clovers life before the fall wasn't THAT terrible, we know what he experienced underground was far worse. "you've made your choices" it stops being a choice for many, the human mind is a form of machine, and if we have a story where someone can go into that machine and help mend the broken pieces, then there's something interesting at play here.
>>3916447>If a kid suddenly showed up in the Undertale full of rage and unresolved trauma, who because of that lashed out and started killing indiscriminately, I would look at them as being very troubled,My point with that particular reply was that "troubled" was something of an understatement, but more broadly my point is that having suffered is not an excuse to inflict suffering on other people who have nothing to do with your suffering. That's when you go from being a victim to being a perpetrator, that's when you lose the capacity to ever really get back to being "good".
>>3916448>someone who was twisted into something terrible by circumstances out of their control deserves sympathy even if they have to be put in the dirt, else we forsake recognizing what brought us here.Perhaps, but I feel like it is, at the very least, extremely lame from a storytelling standpoint to take this idea and turn it into a story of a mass murderer just being given a new life without any consequences for the nearly 100 deaths they're responsible for, it lacks weight.For the record, I think fictional characters with massive body counts *can* be redeemed in certain circumstances, but that requires actual consequences and recognition of their actions on their part, and having Clover just get a stern talking too and a new body doesn't constitute that.At least people like Vegeta or (Injustice) Hal Jordan had to go through hell (metaphorical or otherwise) to even begin to atone for what they did, actions need consequences.
>>3916450>but more broadly my point is that having suffered is not an excuse to inflict suffering on other people who have nothing to do with your suffering.I know you are not making a legal argument, but I want to say that legally speaking we do have room for things like this. the criminally insane can be deemed not guilty by reason of insanity, and given treatment. And while people like this normally never have a day of freedom in their lives after this, its not always the case and there are specific instances of killers who have been granted freedom years later after being deemed rehabilitated. Often the people pursuing justice in our legal system try to avoid this because of how much we as humans want bloody justice for crimes committed, but the laws themselves have room for this mercy, because we do know for a fact that the human mind can break in ways that are beyond any notion of free will or choice. I think for a judge like martlet who is getting to see that something doesn't add up here, its an interesting story to see her exploring what happened and coming to care more and more about the way the perpetrator truly was a victim. on that note I rewatched the neutral ending last night due to all the discussions, "fucked up" comes no where close to describing what flowey put Clover through an unknown number of times.I do understand the view of demanding justice for atrocity, but clover is a child in way over his head with very extenuating circumstances. With literal magic being involved in his rehabilitation, its a story I'm here for personally.
>>3916452>>3916455>and having Clover just get a stern talking too and a new body doesn't constitute that.and on that note I think its that much more important that it's not framed as just a "stern talking to" like you said. I feel like Martlet actually going into his memories and facing Clovers demons, his failings, and the absolute misery that being forced to go through the underground over and over again kept from happiness would cause him, would be a good start. I also think that if at the end of this clover was redeemed in some way, he wouldn't be off scott free, I personally like to think he's a good kid at heart driven to absurd ends by his circumstance. His actions would likely haunt him for the rest of his life even if he was given a second chance. I think if Martlet managed to convince him that he was no longer stuck repeating Floweys hellish routes, it would be difficult to convince him to accept mercy as well. this is a kid with such low self worth that he was willing to throw his own soul to the monsters to help people he cared about, that kind of behavior in a kid points to extremely low self value, often caused by prior abuse/neglect (though again we can only speculate on what happened to him before he jumped in the mountain)
>>3916455>because we do know for a fact that the human mind can break in ways that are beyond any notion of free will or choice. This is true, but it doesn't necessarily mean every instance of someone going through dire straits is a justification for any horrible actions they might commit.In addition, while the game does bring up the concept of Clover having faint (and I do mean faint) memories from previous loops, at no point does the game go anywhere near as far with it as you're going, for all intents and purposes Clover seems to remember about as much from previous loops as characters in the original UT do when you reload your save after having seen a certain event already, it's not presented as this incomprehensible magic trauma in-game or in-universe, just minor deja vu, so in the context of the game's events, this isn't an excuse for them either.
>>3916460>y, it's not presented as this incomprehensible magic trauma in-game or in-universe, just minor deja vu, so in the context of the game's events, this isn't an excuse for them either.we don't indeed know how much he does or doesn't remember. this is just going off the idea that being a human, he may remember more than a monster would who we already know gets deja vu "like undyne saying to frisk when seeing him after a reset that she got the impression that she really wanted to be frisks friend again". so taking that idea and running with it, and the fact that we know clover has his own personality unlike frisk, and that his choices weren't "made by the player" as confirmed by the devs. its a fan made justification as to why the same kid that is willing to literally give up everything for his monster scrimblos, would instead murder them all. Since we know he's been dragged through countless neutral runs even before the game as we know it starts, its just connecting all those pieces to make a theory, that then is used alongside the idea of martlet absorbing clover to try and rehabilitate him. this is not spoken as abject fact within the canon of the game as we know it, but a theory that has several ideas supporting it. It's an IMAGINATION supporting evidence, but ultimately it could be clover just woke up on the wrong side of the reset that morning. personally Im a big fan of the idea that the accumulation of resets is what pushed him in that direction since its such a stark contrast from hi spacifist ending self.
>>3916455>but I want to say that legally speaking we do have room for things like this. the criminally insane can be deemed not guilty by reason of insanity, and given treatment.I would be genuinely fascinated to know if anyone in the real world with a body count as high as Clover's by the time they get to Martlet has ever been given the kind of mercy you've described here.Remember, we're not talking about a handful of accidental deaths or something, we're talking about 80 people. Most actual soldiers don't even have that many kills, by all means Clover is a rather exceptional example of a mass murderer.
>>3916462>UpdateI don't believe so, but we do have one very extreme case that is worth mentioning in John Hinkley. no deaths at the scene I know, but it was an attempt on a president which carries much harsher scrutiny than if the attempt was made on a civilian. the fact that Hinkley ever saw the light of day again is a testament to the fact that mental condition can be taken into account . Its not the end all be all, but it just stands out in my mind as relevant here since clover is a child (likely a young one at that) and has extremely unique circumstances that Martlet would be learning about first hand in this case.we could talk about people guilty of mass human experimentation that got off scott free due to being useful to the government but I don't think thats fair on my part since the government would cover up anything to benefit themselves
>>3916461>personally Im a big fan of the idea that the accumulation of resets is what pushed him in that direction since its such a stark contrast from hi spacifist ending self.If that's the idea we're going off of here, that still means that in one loop or another, they made the choice to start killing, and that began to snowball into the various different neutral routes.If they went through the underground entirely peacefully, then went through it again with just the faint memories of that initial peaceful loop, then that would mean the transition from peace to violence would actually be their fault in that context.I've made this comparison before, but this is a pretty similar situation to an already existing idea within the UT AU community, so I think it's worth bringing up again.Is Dusttale Sans justified in his actions? Is he a good person? Could he, after slaughtering dozens of people who have done nothing to him, and with those deaths *not* being undone via a reset, become good and normal again?
>>3916466now to be fair, if clover were to just kill the monsters that attacked HIM in neutral routes, and not stick around grinding out a vengeance route, its not a case of "slaughtering innocent monsters". Even sans makes the case that self defense is understandable, where his issue is that he knows the anomaly has special powers. Clover himself doesn't have the special powers until lv 20,
>>3916465>John HinkleyThat's actually not the first time that's happened, the guy who shot Teddy Roosevelt, John Schrank (huh, what is it with people named "John" and trying to kill the president?) was also allowed to live by reason of insanity, though he spent the rest of his life in an asylum.Also, side argument, but I think the fact that it was a failed attempt on a president may have actually helped their case(s), since the president sparing someone who tried to kill them is pretty good for pr, depending on what kind of image they're going for, so in Ronald Reagan's case, it definitely helped with the whole 'christian' thing he had going on.And aside from that, there's still a pretty big difference between failing to kill one man, no matter who that man is, versus successfully killing 80 people.
>>3916452To be fair, something that's been brought up several times and acknowledged in the game, is that the Underground isn't a safe place for a human child. It's basically a death sentence. Every monster you encounter, can quite literally kill you by simply just interacting with you. Not to mention the very king of the monsters is actively going out of his way to kill the human children to harvest their souls. In addition to that fact monsterkind in general are completely fine with the fact that he already has five souls in his possession. Five souls which he obtained from five dead human children.Martlet herself lampshades this, and agrees what he's doing isn't really right or a morally good thing to do, in addition to Clover essentially being screwed the moment he jumped into the Underground, because he most certainly is going to get killed, either by a monster or Asgore.She also acknowledges the messy situation Clover is in, in that he's in an environment where everything can kill him, and he either gets killed, or has to fight for his life and dies in the process, or kill someone as a consequence. She also emphasises why Clover is killing monsters in regards to what happened to the previous humans, and his situation as a human child being in the Underground.Martlet can see clear as day that Clover needs help, and she wants to help him, She doesn't want to kill Clover, she doesn't Clover's life to be fueled by anger and violence, and she doesn't want Clover to be killed by someone else.It's for that reason, like many anons here have talked about that I like the confrontation between Zenith Martlet and Clover. Because at that point she understands being passive and reserved won't work, and she needs to take action, in order to resolve the problem.
>>3916468>it definitely helped with the whole 'christian' thing he had going on.the thing is, he wasn't just spared by the president. The prosecution made every attempt to get him convicted, and it was the defense that won the case.I think the defense even tried to propose a plea deal that involved sentencing but Prosecution rejected it (I'm working now so I don't have time to check my homework here, but it feels familiar)
>>3916467> Even sans makes the case that self defense is understandableHe says that when you only have maybe one or two kills, you can get way more than that in UT if you kill every monster that attacks you first, and he'll still call you a scumbag over it.Anyway, I think my Dusttale comparison here is a pretty good one for this argument. Dusttale Sans is someone who's been through countless resets, has horrific trauma from going through the same situation over and over again, and reacts by lashing out at the world around him in a desperate attempt to break the cycle, killing dozens of people in the process.Clover, as you describe them, has been through countless resets, has horrific trauma from going through the same events over and over again, and reacts by lashing out at the world around them in a desperate attempt to break the cycle, killing dozens of people in the process.So if Clover supposedly isn't responsible for their actions, does that also apply to Sans? Is he innocent too? Would he deserve the same kind of mercy you argue Clover deserves if his actions had somehow stuck?
>>3916470I did actually go and look it up because it was bothering me. Prosecution rejected the plea deal. There was no PR attempt during the trial to grant mercy it looks like, they were out for blood. Reagan himself said he forgave Hinkley, but there was no pardon or anything like that. He let the dogs do their work so to speak.
>>3916473>Reagan himself said he forgave Hinkley, but there was no pardon or anything like that. He let the dogs do their work so to speak.Eh, I'd be willing to bet that if they'd actually tried to sentence and kill the guy that Reagan would've stepped in, it just didn't get that far.
>>3916472>Is he innocent too?Innocent? no, and I dont consider Clover innocent. Worthy of mercy and possibly if the circumstances are right, redemption? Personally yes I do feel thats the case.
>>3916474The Hinkley case wasn't open and shut in court, it was an eight week trial. Forgiving someone also doesn't mean that he excused his actions. it was up to the court to do that, and no attempt was made to give leniency on the prosecutions part. I'll research more when I take lunch if I have time, but I really think they were out for blood.
>>3916469>Clover essentially being screwed the moment he jumped into the UndergroundNobody forced Clover into the underground, they jumped down there entirely of their own volition, and while they may not have had a good home life, they still made the choice to put themselves in an actively dangerous situation as opposed to just running away somewhere else, so even this isn't something they aren't responsible for.>She doesn't want to kill CloverShe pretty definitely wants to kill Clover by the time they have their fight on the rooftop, she's well past trying to reason with them by that point. Their fight isn't like the one between Sans and Frisk, Martlet isn't trying to get Clover to stand down, she's trying to kill them.
>>3916459>Martlet actually going into his memories and facing Clovers demons, his failings, and the absolute misery that being forced to go through the underground over and over again kept from happiness would cause him, would be a good start. I didn't reply to this until now, but this is kind of my point, the allocation of blame. It's not just Clover's "demons", some separate thing inside them that's to blame for this, it's them. *Their* choices, that *they* made. Even if those choices were based on supposed "trauma", based on how they felt when in a desperate situation, that doesn't absolve them of responsibility. They didn't just kill some people in a fit of rage or delusion, they meticulously hunted throughout the underground for people to kill, even to the point where Flowey, fucking Flowey, starts telling them to cool it and just keep moving, and they ignored that. Even if Clover has issues, whether they be from their life on the surface or from the resets, that doesn't excuse the calculated, thorough slaughter of 80 people. That's not just lashing out, that's a specifically structured plan of murder.>His actions would likely haunt him for the rest of his life even if he was given a second chance.It doesn't matter how much they're "haunted" by their actions, or how "sorry" they are, they made their choices, and those choices should have consequences deeper than them feeling a bit blue for the rest of their life. 1/2
>>3916480>Martlet isn't trying to get Clover to stand down, she's trying to kill them.NTA so I could be wrong, but I think this is all in reference to the scenario in which she instead tries to absorb him to rehabilitate him.
>>3916482>It's not just Clover's "demons", some separate thing inside them that's to blame for this, it's thembut thats the thing anon, Demons is just an expression for the internal burdens people carry, and clovers "choices" were in fact impacted because he was actively being manipulated far far beyond his control. after all, clover didn't do a genocide route before the game began, he was being dragged through neutral routes. Flowey even taunts him about how he has no choice in things before resetting at the end of a neutral route. "his choices" means a lot less when he's literally being dragged through time by a psychopath hellbent on pushing him to kill for his enjoyment.its also not "a bit blue" and thats a minimalization of what I said. Hes also wasn't just lashing out over from a little frustration, the level of trauma he was being forced to go through far beyond his control was supernatural in its scope. The fake out flowey puts him through alone in the neutral ending with the fake martlet melting in front of him itself is far far beyond what any child should ahve to experience, but flowey goes far beyond that in how he tortures the kid, and thats what it was, Flowey Tortured Clover for an unknown amount of time.
>>3916459>>3916482I brought it up before, but I think an actually good example of this sort of thing is Hal Jordan in the Injustice comics. He did terrible things as a yellow lantern, he fought on the wrong side and killed people who didn't deserve it, even people who were literally pleading with him to do the right thing and didn't want to fight him, like Guy Gardner. When he gives up being a yellow lantern, he doesn't just get his green ring back like it's nothing, he goes to a prison world, he faces severe consequences, he has to actually *work* to get better. Not to get *good*, to get *better*, he has to actually prove that he's even capable of being better than the man who did all those terrible things.And eventually he does, he gets his ring back and starts working to do some real good again, but that doesn't just undo all the bad he did, and he doesn't just get to be the same good guy he was before either. He'll never be "redeemed", he'll never be the same hero he was before.He can be *better*, but that requires actual work and effort on his part, and that requires recognizing that what he did was his own fault, even if he was manipulated by Sinestro and Superman, he still chose to act the way he did, and that's still his responsibility.That's part of my point in all this, just having Clover be "redeemed" by having someone go into their head and chase all the trauma away through magic is a cop-out of insane proportions, especially when they have the blood of 80 people on their hands. Maybe you could write a story about Clover and Martlet trying to reach some kind of understanding given a general idea of the greater scale of things, but treating Clover like they aren't responsible for what they did and acting like they can just be "redeemed" for the deaths of 80 people is just bad storytelling.Maybe they can be better, maybe they can be turned into someone who would never do those things, but there is no redemption.
>>3916480Regardless of the reasons of why Clover went into the Underground, it doesn't change the fact, that once he jumped in there, he was basically fucked either way. And it's heavily implied Clover already knew this but did it anyway, just to find some semblance of purpose.You realize that the anon was talking about normal Martlet and not Zenith when they said Martlet doesn't want to kill Clover right? Because that statement is 100% true, she didn't. She really didn't want to kill Clover. She tried to do anything to avoid that, but ultimately ended up having to become Zenith when it was clear she had to take action. Every time she encountered Clover in Vengeance she tried to have him stand down and see reason, until the encounter on the rooftop.>>3916472Clover is responsible for his actions, but there's an understandable reason why he crashed out.Unlike Sans who remembers, Clover doesn't remember the source of it. It's just trauma upon trauma being stacked on top of each other, over countless resets, and having no idea why, other than vague feelings of deja vu. In many ways he was a ticking time bomb, until one reset where he just snaps, associating all these negative feelings with the Underground itself as he doesn't remember or know the exact cause, courtesy of Flowey constantly reseting, while he's experiencing all manner of trauma's during each different run.
>>3916483The absorption scenario we're talking about is specifically in reference to that Zenith Martlet image, and Martlet only ever transforms into Zenith Martlet when she is very explicitly trying to kill Clover.
>>3916491>"his choices" means a lot less when he's literally being dragged through time by a psychopath hellbent on pushing him to kill for his enjoyment.Clover still has a choice in how they act based on what Flowey does or tells them to do. And like I said earlier, that doesn't even address the part where Flowey starts actively discouraging Clover's genocide, so it's not even 100% his doing either.
>>3916499Flowey telling him stuff in a route doesn't negate the fact that if clover doesn't do what he wants he just resets him over and over again. Clover has no choice, flowey will reset things until he either does a perfect pacifist route, or goes full genocide and flowey doesn't have the chance to. Clovers agency in this situation is literally compromised>>3916497the scenario here is if zenith martlet absorbed him to try and give him a new chance. its the entire premise we're working with.
>>3916494first and foremost, Hal is an adult, and Clover is a child, Hal was also not having his progress reset to zero every time he actively made the choice to accept when people asked him to do the right thing and thats a huge part of this. If Martlet goes into his memories and sees that in hundreds if not thousands of timelines, Clover DID listen to her and try to change his ways, only for someone to kill her, for her to blame HIM for the death, and then for the real killer to laugh in his face while literally torturing him telling him that he can't do shit about it, that changes the dynamic a lot. Again we know at least canonically that flowey has been doing this for a while before we play clover, so Clover tried to accept martlets words and live a peaceful life many times before he crashed out. if you reset the clock for a different result no matter how many times someone tries to be peaceful and give up on killing the king, eventually you're going to find a way to get that person to go in a different direction, especially if there is any kind of memory build up which is a reasonable assumption since we know monsters with less determination have some degree of deja vu already.Clover is not a grown ass adult with agency over his circumstances. he chose to jump down the hole and that was the last time he had any control over his choices because the game was literally rigged against him from that point.Clover wasn't just emotionally manipulated (which is something we could have sympathy for him on anyways and why we have laws against letting children do things like sign contracts). The laws of space and time literally bent to the will of the person who was manipulating him, Clover was a different kind of fucked than you're acknowledging by bringing up Hal jordan. it is a fundamentally different playing field.
>>3916495>Regardless of the reasons of why Clover went into the Underground, it doesn't change the fact, that once he jumped in there, he was basically fucked either way.Yes, my point was that it was Clover's own actions that lead them to be in such a situation, it wasn't just happenstance or an unlucky break, it was their own deliberate choices.>And it's heavily implied Clover already knew this but did it anyway, just to find some semblance of purpose.They could've found purpose somewhere else, they didn't *have* to climb Mt.Ebott, they *chose* to. Again, just because their reasons for doing what they did have some potential foundation in some kind of mental trauma doesn't mean their choices aren't their own. Everyone has problems, every situation has some kind of extenuating circumstance, you can't just excuse someone's actions just because they don't exist in a vacuum, no one exists in a vacuum.>Clover doesn't remember the source of it. It's just trauma upon trauma being stacked on top of each otherAgain, not actually based on any major in-game evidence, the game itself only ever shows Clover getting about the same kind of deja vu that characters in the original UT are shown to experience momentarily, but again, even if they did have this kind of trauma, that doesn't make them not responsible for how they choose to act on it, and it doesn't make them all squeaky clean and good even if you were to somehow remove all that trauma.And to be clear, "trauma" is not a separate thing from a person. It's part of one's mind, it's part of *you*, it's not some debuff you can patch out, it's a part of your consciousness. Removing trauma, removing any part of a person's personality or mind, isn't like healing an injury, it's a fundamental change in who that person actually *is*.How one acts based on their trauma isn't the same as how someone acts based on whether or not they're inebriated, it's how they act, it's how their mind operates.
>>3916510>somehow remove all that trauma.And to be clear, "trauma" is not a separate thing from a person. It's part of one's mind, it's part of *you*, it's not some debuff you can patch out, it's a part of your consciousness.correct, which is why in the soul absorbtion scenario I would prefer it involved FACING those issues, not erasing them.> it was their own deliberate choiceschoice, singular because it was the last choice he ever got to make that wasn't bound by the whims of a power mad creature with absolute dominion over his fate.
>>3916504>Flowey telling him stuff in a route doesn't negate the fact that if clover doesn't do what he wants he just resets him over and over again.Even if Flowey is just resetting things over and over again, that doesn't mean Clover doesn't have a choice. After all, it's Clover's choice to either give up their soul (or fight Asgore and have it forcibly taken from them) that makes Flowey realize he can't get the outcome he wants with them and decide to move on and wait for the next kid to fall, we know as much from him if you boot up the game again after getting one of the pacifist endings.So, as directly supported through in-game evidence, Clover's choices *do* matter, explicitly, and all they had to do to get something to actually stick was just keep going down the same path until Flowey decides they're a lost cause.>the scenario here is if zenith martlet absorbed him to try and give him a new chance. its the entire premise we're working with.Would you care to explain to me how Zenith Martlet acquired Clover's soul and absorbed it *without* killing them?What she ends up doing with the soul is besides the point, she uses the DT syringe to take Clover down, that's explicit.
>>3916516>that doesn't mean Clover doesn't have a choice.it absolutely means that when a single choice that the person in control doesn't like can just be undone. Its implied he only lets true pacifist lay as it was because of what he says in his dialogue, but it's ultimately floweys choice. You can run the exact same neutral route over and over again and its not going to change how flowey approaches things. he actively resets the game at the end of whatever he says at the end of every single neutral route even if you take the same steps in that route perfectly over and over. >Would you care to explain to me how Zenith Martlet acquired Clover's soul and absorbed it *without* killing them?What she ends up doing with the soul is besides the point, she uses the DT syringe to take Clover down, that's explicit.thats the territory of the fanfictions that could come from this. Perhaps clover drew his soul out mockingly "sure, take it. its not like any of this matters, we're both stuck in this dance" or perhaps some other IMAGINATION suggesting the burden of all of the runs surfacing in a way that catches martlets attention. the how of that part isn't really relevant to this argument.
that DRY take changed clover's name to "sage" for some reason, likely because of the cage from DR
>>3916506>Hal is an adult, and Clover is a childClover, like Frisk and Chara, is a sociopathic, ideologically driven freak, and comparing them to a normal human child is fallacious. Furthermore, UT is a fantasy world, and children taking on the responsibilities of adults, and generally being involved with or tangled up in situations well beyond their comprehension, is fairly par for the course, not some super insane thing it would be in our world. For example, compare the situation of Gohan being made to fight Cell in the world of Dragon Ball, to a situation where a child is made to fight Mike Tyson to the death single-handedly by himself in our world. One of these situations is less insane than the other, because of the inherently less-grounded nature of one of these worlds when compared with the other.>If Martlet goes into his memories and sees that in hundreds if not thousands of timelinesAgain, part of the issue here, Clover *doesn't* have memories of hundreds of thousands of other timelines. They're shown experiencing *deja vu* for extremely specific things, such as with the text for the butterscotch candy you can find in the game, but it is literally never implied that they have anything more than extremely faint, occasional flashes of deja vu, not actual memories from previous iterations like Frisk does.There is no magic trauma, that's not a thing.>especially if there is any kind of memory build upAgain, there isn't, and if there actually was, why would it only affect how violent Clover is, as opposed to affecting how they act in certain specific events? Like, why wouldn't they try and stop Flowey from skewering Martlet at the end of any given neutral route, if they supposedly remember it happening and feel so strongly about it?
>>3916495>You realize that the anon was talking about normal Martlet and not Zenith when they said Martlet doesn't want to kill Clover right? We're talking about the absorption scenario based on that one Zenith image, not normal Martlet, keep up.
>>3916499Clover quite literally doesn't have a choice. At all. Every potential run is determined by how much Flowey is willing to tolerate how a run goes. Flowey is the type of person, who's petty enough to reset if Clover turned right if Flowey wanted him to turn left.Furthermore Flowey wasn't discouraging Clover's genocide because he was concerned or horrified. He's canonically done countless genocides, and literally gets thrilled at the thought of killing. The game makes it very abundantly clear, that he's only discouraging Clover from his killing spree, because what Clover is doing is interfering with his plans, with getting Clover to Asgore without hassle, so he can kill him, followed by him killing Clover and then claiming the other souls for himself. He's been literally planning to backstab Clover this whole time.He tolerates Clover because he needs him for his plans, and is prepared to reset hundreds or thousands of times, to try and make him his perfect convenient tool to use for his own gain, knowing full well the phycological damage it's doing to Clover. In Genocide this backfires, because Clover becomes to strong for him to control, at a point where Flowey no longer has the power to press the reset button to undo everything, while revealing to Clover that he was planning to backstab him during his tirade.
>>3916515>I would prefer it involved FACING those issues, not erasing them.Not erasing the issues themselves, but the way you talk about it certainly sounds like erasing the actual culpability and responsibility around them, framing them as if they're some kind of external problem that's separate from Clover.>choice, singularClimbing a mountain is not a singular choice that you make in an instant, it's an active process you engage with that you have to commit to, it's not like pressing a button.To roughly paraphrase a comedian I forget the name of, you don't go "Oh shit I baked a cake, I meant to file my taxes!".
>>3916524>Clover, like Frisk and Chara, is a sociopathic, ideologically driven freak, and comparing them to a normal human child is fallacious.that's your take on him. He shows signs of normal child behavior, and even if he was a bit of a freak, freakish children still don't have the level of agency an adult does, especially if they are being manipulated by someone with godlike powers over time.>Again, part of the issue here, Clover *doesn't* have memories of hundreds of thousands of other timelines.he does in this scenario which I don't understand why we keep having to retread. I understand if you don't like the core concept, but its the framework being played off of here almost the entire time because its using already known facts (monsters with their little determination have faint deja vu like memories, clover being a human has more dt than a monster by default because its what lets souls persist) and using it to explain why clover could have been dragged through countless unknown neutral routes before the game started (known fact) and never have tried a genocide until suddenly he does. Its a story concept using known facts and theories together to come up with something.>there's no magic trauma, that's not a thingno, it may not be a thing, but there's solid logic behind the idea that a human may remember more than a monster would after a reset, it uses rules we already have in place since undertale itself.>Again, there isn'thowever its actively false to say that, flowey mentions in one of the neutral routes that despite "not remembering anything" clover moves through the underground like he's more familiar with it every time. this is in the game itself. we are using a combination of known facts from both games, and ideas that are extrapolated from that to come up with an IMAGINATION. its the core concept we're working with and have been the whole time.
>>3916521>You can run the exact same neutral route over and over again and its not going to change how flowey approaches things.Yes, that's because it's a video game, and Flowey isn't a real person who's actually accounting for your choices, and is in actuality a collection of pre-made sprites and text designed to give the illusion of a person.No shit the game doesn't actually change if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, we're talking in-universe here.>the how of that part isn't really relevant to this argument.Way to completely miss my point, good one.
>>3916531>framing them as if they're some kind of external problem that's separate from Clover.this literally takes place in clovers memories, and its about facing those issues and coming to terms with them. It does remove some responsibility yes because a lot of this was literally out of his hands as a time manipulating godlike being was undoing his choices every single time he chose the right thing and went to live with martlet, this is a fact and we know it from the games. Clover TRIED to do things differently, possibly thousands of times. If Flowey didn't approve in the slightest it went back.and for the "series of choices" for climbing the mountain, thats pedantic, the choice in question was jumping in the hole, the final choice he made that wasn't under floweys control. Once that happened every step he made was at floweys discretion.you're only viewing what I'm saying here as an external problem to clover because that's how you want to see my argument. its something that is going to be difficult to face, especially the parts that WEREN'T his fault because they are truly terrifying, like I said earlier, even if Martlet gets to the center of things and manages to get clover to believe that redemption could even be possible, convincing him to accept that chance at redemption is going to be a whole different deal because he's obviously going to carry immense guilt.
>>3916527>Flowey is the type of person, who's petty enough to reset if Clover turned right if Flowey wanted him to turn left.He can reset as much as he wants, Clover's still the one making their own choices, and we know from the game's pacifist endings that there are situations where Clover can make a specific choice, one that Flowey doesn't want, and Flowey's still willing to let it be if he's come to the conclusion that he's caught in a Catch-22.If Flowey's willing to throw his hands up and call it quits after Clover keeps making the same certain decision that results in Flowey not getting the human souls, then that same scenario could've arisen in another context, meaning Clover's choices explicitly do matter, and Flowey only has the choice of whether or not he wants to let those choices stick.
>>3916534>Yes, that's because it's a video game, and Flowey isn't a real person who's actually accounting for your choices, and is in actuality a collection of pre-made sprites and text designed to give the illusion of a person.that's a horrendous cop-out come on man. Flowey has several variations of his dialogue he can go through at the end of a neutral route. not a single one of those end with him just keeping things as is, everything goes white and he resets the game at the end of it no matter how the encounter goes because flowey doesn't give up at the end of a neutral route, he just gets endlessly frustrated. After all, Determination is the power to reach "an ending" and in his own words "this ending just sucks">Way to completely miss my point, good one.restate your point then instead of getting passive aggressive about it.
I can't believe we are having this huge argument about morality and accountability over some unbirth pics
>>3916532>he does in this scenario which I don't understand why we keep having to retread.Don't pull that with me, that is absolutely not how this started, right here: >>3916430>I think considering Clover for a second chance is fair considering the absolute insanity he had to go through at floweys hands over and over again.This reply was made with the point that Clover's actions are the result of what Flowey's put them through, as if the idea of them retaining anything significant from previous iterations was gospel, don't you switch up and act like this was a discussion of headcanon the whole time, that's fucking cheap.
>>3916541I know the argument is getting heated, and it may be going a bit too far in that direction, but I'm really impressed by that itself
>>3916543the discussion of this alternate ending started before that post, yesterday. I have stated in this discussion that this is based on that scenario.
>>3916539>that's a horrendous cop-out come on man.I made an argument based on in-story evidence that Flowey is willing to let a timeline be even when he's unsatisfied with the result, if he thinks that he can't do anything more to achieve a better outcome, which we know from the game's pacifist endings to be true.You made an argument that that wouldn't be the case in any other context because you can play the game the same way multiple times and not get an ending where Flowey's willing to leave it be, which is a fallacy because that's based on how a function of the game, rather than the writing of the character. Him saying "this ending just sucks" is in reference to the stalemate between him and Clover, not Clover deciding to live with Martlet, so in the context of the universe, if Flowey opted not to intervene on the rooftop the same way he doesn't intervene at the balcony in a pacifist route, we could see a similar scenario play out where Flowey decides that Clover's a lost cause and chooses to move on, which was my argument.
>>3916546>which is a fallacy because that's based on how a function of the game, rather than the writing of the character.no, its based on the fact that the only ending he doesn't actually perform a reset in front of you in, is the two variations of pacifist. We know for a fact that he does not give up if the ending was a pacifist, and if you're saying he does give up in a pacifist, thats not supported by anything we have. the only choice that clover gets to make without floweys interference is potentially sparing ceroba, because every single other variation of the ending leads to a confirmed reset. you could say he may let things continue on the rooftop, and its a fun what if for fanfictions and I fully support that, but in game we know that he never lets that happen and even has dialogue pertaining to this in his variatiosn of the neutral ending dialogue. I'm calling it a cop out because you're taking such issue with something I've been saying is an IMAGINATION fueled story based on a mix of theories and cannon information, but then you want to pull the card of using something not shown in the game itself. Its unreasonable for you to take issue with one and use the other yourself. you can say that you just don't like the scenario which is something you're fully welcome to, but thats now how you're approaching this here.
>>3916545My post that you replied to was a reply to the other guy saying that it was a little ridiculous to describe someone who's responsible for so much death as being "troubled", to which you replied with your post talking about Clover deserving a second chance in spite of that, not clarifying that you were referring to your own headcanon.
>>3916552yes but I proceeded to clarify multiple times in the discussion that this was based on that IMAGINATION because that persons post was connected to what we were talking about before, since it was his art that inspired the whole discussion. Look up above higher in the thread. This has all been based on IMAGINATIONs based on the drawanons art. finding ways to interpret what happened and all that, and find reasons for martlets actions, or how she went about it. in the context where Clover has been essentially getting tortured by Flowey every time he tries to do the right thing, I'd say Clover is very troubled if we include ideas like memory carry over which has been a part of this discussion since yesterday.
>>3916550>We know for a fact that he does not give up if the ending was a pacifist, and if you're saying he does give up in a pacifist, thats not supported by anything we have. Boot up the game again after beating a pacifist route. Much like how the original UT has Flowey talking to you after every ending (where he's alive), UTY shows you a scene of him talking to himself, weighing his options on how to proceed with Clover dead, and one of the things he explicitly mentions is the idea of just giving up on Clover and waiting for the next human to fall, which is obviously the game's explanation for how the events of UTY lead into UT, with Flowey cutting his losses with Clover and waiting for another human.This is why I argue that there could be other circumstances in which Flowey decides to leave things be, since if he's willing to accept a timeline where he still doesn't have the human souls even with Clover dead, then I think it stands to reason that a similar scenario could occur in-universe if Clover were to keep ending up with Martlet on that rooftop with no variation.If that's what happens in pacifist, then I see little reason the same thing couldn't happen in a neutral route if Flowey came to the conclusion that there wasn't another way around it.
>>3916556this one is my bad, when I said "he does give up in a pacifist, thats not supported by anything we have"I meant to say "neutral" because that's what I was talking about with his variations of neutral dialogue. Again, my mistake there.
>>3916555It looked to me like you were arguing the idea based on in-game evidence, but alright, whatever.That aside, I still think the scenario as you described it earlier is dumb and lacks weight, since it largely seems to imply that Clover, as the subject of Flowey's manipulation, isn't responsible on an actual or moral level for the atrocities they've committed in the context of a genocide route, and revolves around the idea of "redeeming" someone who's done terrible things, not by having that person actually face some kind of consequence for the mass suffering and wrongdoing they've inflicted upon the world, but through having someone magic all their internal trauma away (an earlier reply explicitly mentioned using magic to heal them so I don't wanna hear anything about hyperbole), which just feels extremely cheap.The reason I like the Hal Jordan example I gave earlier is because it actually does a really good job handling the concept of redemption for one's wrongdoings. Hal doesn't just have a magic therapy session in his head to heal his issues, it's something he just has to grapple with, forever. And he does start to get over it, but it's not without a sincere, major effort on his part, and the story doesn't attempt to act like him working to become a better person just magically undoes all the wrong he did, good people are still dead, he still fought to impose oppression and suffering, and Hal's still haunted by that. It's a redemption story that actually has weight to it, it tells him that while he'll never be *good*, he can still be *better*, and it doesn't just coddle him and wave away all the bad shit he did like this Martlet scenario does. If we're talking entirely subjectivity here, my issue is that Clover is being framed as a victim who just ended up on the wrong side of things, rather than as an individual who's responsible for their own actions, even if they were being partially manipulated by forces larger than them, and that feels weak.
I am now done arguing about this.TL;DR, I feel like this concept lacks the weight and intensity that a story about a horrible person facing their actions and being "redeemed" should have and it makes itself uninteresting by making the subject of said reflection not actually bear most of the responsibility for their actions or face any real consequence or tribulations to become a better person by instead "just-talking" their problems away without addressing the better part of 100 deaths they're directly responsible for, it feels like extremely weak writing.If you like the concept and wanna make a story with it, that's whatever, and I hope it goes well, but I get the feeling that if this concept had initially emerged as a sprite comic from r/UTY that people here would be a lot less kind to it.
>>3916557Fair enough, I can see how you might've gotten mixed up.Anyway, I hope you can see my argument on that particular front.
>>3916472Sans hardly cares unless you kill Toriel or Papyrus, and even with Toriel he only calls you out in the ending (though to be fair he doesn't know until then). Papyrus is a real litmus test for any non-pacifist run because he not only can't kill you under any circumstance but, if you do FIGHT him, it's impossible to kill him before he stops the fight and declares he's spared you, so to kill him requires you to do so consciously (unlike Toriel who gut punches the player so hard with her sudden death that the playerbase has collective PTSD over it and refuses to even slightly experiment with FIGHTing in Deltarune ten years later); even under the loosest definition of self-defense he's the only monster you battle in the Underground that you can't justify killing.
>>3916516Different anon here, that's going to explain how Zenith Martlet absorbs Clover's/unbirths him without "killing" him.A while back an anon actually gave a pretty good explanation of what souls are and how they work in the Undertale world, so I'm going to try my best reiterate what they said.Essentially a human body is simply a vessel while the soul itself is the life of a human. Humans souls are unique in that unlike monster souls, they persist well after death without any issues. But what's important is that the soul itself is still alive, and conscious of everything that's going around it, as well as being able to act should someone or something try to do something to it, Integrity rejecting every attempt Chujin made to fuse her soul to his for several years.Removing a soul from a humans body, doesn't kill them in the traditional sense, as the soul persists, and it's heavily implied in Undertale's pacifist ending with the empty coffins that the souls of the fallen humans simply went back to there bodies then left, even it's though been years since some of them died.Another case is with Chara and Asriel where Chara intentionally "killed" themselves so Asriel could absorb their soul, which caused their souls to fuse, effectively becoming a singular entity, where it was possible for Chara to control the body, even lifting up his previous empty shell. Here again, Chara isn't really dead, their soul simply moved to a different vessel.The only way to truly kill a human, is to shatter their soul. Just like how a Boss monster soul shattering signifies that they're well and truly dead at that point.For that reason should Zenith Martlet absorb Clover's soul, and removes it from his body, he's not really "dead." His essence of being is still alive, only his soul now resides within her body. The idea is that while his soul is within her womb, she's making a monster vessel, that his soul will ultimately inhabit. I.e new life, new start, free of violence.
>>3916574>Sans hardly cares unless you kill Toriel or Papyrus, and even with Toriel he only calls you out in the ending (though to be fair he doesn't know until then).Okay, I'll make a reply to this, and then I have to get going, got things to do.This is just factually incorrect. Sans does care about the different people you kill, he just doesn't typically display emotions most of the time due to his nihilism. He'll actively call you out if you have more than one kill or multiple LVs, he just lets you go because he knows about the anomaly and knows he can't actually stop you, that's why he spends so much of his genocide fight trying to talk you into resetting rather than seriously trying to kill you.And as for him only caring about Toriel and Papyrus, he literally calls you out in the second version of the "leaderless" neutral ending, which you get by killing 20 non-boss encounter monsters.Sans' whole schtick is his nihilism in the face of the true nature of the world, of course he's not gonna be bawling his eyes out when you kill certain people, he's way too jaded.
>>3916572I can definitely understand where you're coming from in all of this (assuming I'm talking to one person here, I know there's more than two people in this discussion overall. I think a lot of it comes down to differing views in approaching sin and punishment and the weight of redemption. Overall it was an interesting discussion even if I don't agree with your stance on the matter.
>>3916579>Essentially a human body is simply a vessel while the soul itself is the life of a human.I don't feel like getting into another argument, but this explanation is wrong by three lines in.The body isn't just a vessel, as UTDR shows us, the body is in and of itself a conscious part of a living being, human and monster. We know this for a few reasons, namely that Chara appears with their body at the end of a genocide route despite not having their soul, Kris being their own entity despite not having their soul, and Flowey retaining Asriel's essence and memories from only the dust that comprised his body.Living beings in UTDR seem to be composed in a similar way to that of Kingdom Hearts, with the body and soul being two different components that each make up a single being, but with neither individual component being the complete being by itself, only a part of it.We know that the soul is responsible for one's emotions, at least to the extent that it is extremely difficult to feel emotions properly without the soul, though not impossible, so from that it stands to reason that the body may be the more complex parts of the mind, the memories and personality of a living being, separated from the emotions.It's an emergence situation, where multiple smaller pieces come together to form a larger whole.
>>3916579This...surprisingly makes a lot of sense.I can buy into that explanation. It's not confusing, and after thinking about it, it does make logical sense.
>>3916584Oh, I was just saying that I hoped you could see where I was coming from specifically on the argument I was making about it being theoretically possible for Flowey to have given up at a different point after deciding that Clover's a dead end based on in-game evidence, the other stuff is all whatever at this point.I agree this was an interesting discussion, but it's not one that's ever going to be resolved, so I don't think it's worth continuing at this point.
>>3916586Comparing how things work in Deltarune and Undertale isn't really a good comparison, since way the things work in the two worlds are from one another.You can't say because something works like this in Deltarune, it works like this in Undertale.They're essentially two completely different worlds that have different rules in regards to how they work.
>>3916591Alright, entirely excluding DR then, that doesn't refute the examples I gave from UT.
>>3916590>Oh, I was just saying that I hoped you could see where I was coming from specifically on the argument I was making about it being theoretically possible for Flowey to have given up at a different point after deciding that Clover's a dead end based on in-game evidenceyeah I can definitely see that. I was just I suppose, expressing frustration that some of my argument was based on ideas I was extrapolating from in game ideas as well that we were clashing on. Ultimately I feel like I've taken up a lot of the thread with the arguing, and I hope it hasn't made any anons less interested in that draw anons work just because I spent the better half of 2 days rambling about it.
>>3916579With this explanation I can now see how the how being reborn thing into a monster concept works.As long as the human soul is in tact, it makes sense they if Martlet or Zenith absorbed it, she could simply make a new vessel for the soul while it's residing within her body.I guess another interesting question would be if Clover is conscious throughout the entire experience, or if they at some point they sleep, then wake in their new body when they come out.
>>3916594>Ultimately I feel like I've taken up a lot of the thread with the arguing, and I hope it hasn't made any anons less interested in that draw anons work just because I spent the better half of 2 days rambling about it.I think most of this argument was pretty detached from those images directly, I don't think there'll be any issues.Besides, I'm the guy who just spent like 4 hours arguing on this from a psychological, moral, and literary front, and I've gotten off to that anon's work before.Not like, that image in particular, but you know, they do good stuff.
>>3916596Fuck, I ctrl+v'd wrong.Damn it.
>>3916594If anything I'd say it would just make people more interested in the Drawanons MartletZenith unbirth drawings, if they can invite such discussions like this.The fact their drawings resulted in people coming up with these ideas, means the concept itself is intriguing, and there's room to explore it, in whatever direction comes to your mind.
>>3916594If the draw anons artwork can lead to such an intense exploration of what they drew, and has inspired others to draw and write.I think it's safe to say people are going to want them to draw more of it.
You know, I was looking up some stuff about Injustice while making those Hal Jordan comparisons before, and I saw someone say that the Injustice story ended with a He-Man crossover where Superman tries to use the power of Greyskull to prevent the Joker from making him kill Lois and nuke Metropolis in the first place, and I don't know if I believe that's real but I refuse to check.
>>3916597happens to the best of us>>3916598>>3916599Then I will go in peace to my dungeon and think about the bird.
>>3916497What Zenith Martlet image is this exactly?Is it an image that's part of a fic or something?
>>3916602Have a good one, see ya around.This was definitely one of the better arguments I've had around here, we were all pretty consistently arguing around an actual topic instead of doing mindless mudslinging, that's good.Anyway, I have to get back to that Ceroba lactation pic I said I'd do last /v/, so I'll be peacing out for now, for real this time.
>>3916604The one where Zenith Martlet absorbed Clover's soul into her vagina and is forcibly making them a new monster body to give birth to them with.Yes, that's how this all started.
>>3916608It's really funny to think of a serious discussion on crime and punishment erupting from something like that.
>>3916455>I know you are not making a legal argument, but I want to say that legally speaking we do have room for things like this. the criminally insane can be deemed not guilty by reason of insanity, and given treatment.This is much more limited than you think. I'm neither a psychologist nor a lawyer, but being insane means one isn't cognizant of one's actions and this has to be proven in a court of law. It's also somewhat of a blurred line; a lot of criminals come from sucky home situations, are retarded, were bullied, or have some mental issues, but they're still cognizant of their actions and can be held accountable. Children typically are assumed to not be cognizant of their actions, but in special circumstances they may be held fully responsible and tried as an adult. Clover is a child, but he doesn't come across as insane at all. Removing the player from the equation (since metanarrative is very limited in the game), you have to headcanon Clover's "insanity" ex post facto as causing him to commit mass murder, because he is perfectly functional in any other run. I have no objection to your headcanon btw, it's just not supported by canon. It would be supported by canon if in neutral or pacifist Clover suffered from mental breaks that are unexplained until reaching a neutral ending. Personally I think the game would be better with that.>on that note I rewatched the neutral ending last night due to all the discussions, "fucked up" comes no where close to describing what flowey put Clover through an unknown number of times.Oh yeah it's a perfect depiction of physical and psychological torture without going into "ow the edge" territory. Still, there is no canon indication Clover remembers anything between resets, compared to Frisk at least. Remember how I said metanarrative is limited but not absent? It's implied (you) and not Clover are responsible for his sudden improvement between runs, but it never goes further than that. These are muddy waters.
>>3916602>>3916606Honestly after seeing that such a deep discussion came about from I drew, and that I've come to learn people have been inspired by the stuff I've drawn.I don't know how to put into words how happy I am. I'm glad I'm adding life and discussion into these threads.I love seeing all these different ideas coming to life.If anyone here is working on something based on my works, be that fan artwork, or stories, I wish you the best of luck on them!Feel free to share if you want to, or give me a shout if you want to ask me something!
>>3916614I would just like to pop back in for one second to ask-What'd you think about my point, namely with the comparison to Hal Jordan's arc in Injustice and the idea of Clover being "redeemed"? I know Clover's a kid and all, but none of the kids we've seen from UTDR are really normal children, they're all a bunch of freakazoids, so I feel like we can judge them as such.Also, you do good work, thanks for making stuff.
>>3916612> but they're still cognizant of their actions and can be held accountable.the thing I 'd say that blurs this is there are a lot of times where the people investigating a crime have pressured a written confession out of someone who was mentally compromised completely destroying the defenses chances to make the arguments in their favor. There's a good number of incidents in history like this, as well as morals being overlooked because of crooked systems, but the point was that the precedent does exist> Clover is a child, but he doesn't come across as insane at all.no, but I was drawing a parallel here to the idea that he was under extenuating circumstances, and while a court would likely lock him up and throw away the key, if martlet was first hand getting to witness his memories, and experience what he's been through, I think she's the type of person who would judge his situation as being unusual circumstances and go from vengeful on account of everything he's done, to also wanting justice FOR him, since I think that aligns with the kind of sense of justice she has. realistically Clover doesn't have a chance infront of any judge, but maybe a judge like martlet who did her absolute best to believe that everyone deserves justice, even if they are a human, after seeing what the vile criminal had actually been through, and seeing first hand that Clover tried to accept her offer to live in peace before having it ripped away from him, I think someone like her would try her absolute hardest to find a way to redeem him even if its an insane idea>It's implied (you) and not Clover are responsible for his sudden improvement between runs, but it never goes further than that. These are muddy waters.there is that implication with flowey looking up at the screen, but it leaves it vague enough that I think its a valid interpretation for an IMAGINATION. there's groundwork to go off of and thats enough for me you know?
>>3916614I'm really glad to hear that anon. I thought for a moment that you may open the thread, see the fierce autism we've engaged in and be put off by it. Your work threw me off when I first saw it, but I've come to appreciate it as the threads go by, so thank you for what you do.
>>3916523I'm glad there's at least a distinct name to go off, which lessons confusion. "Sage" is still obviously male however.>Starlo trying to catch MoochAs much as I'd enjoy a Wiley E. Coyote and Roadrunner dynamic, they were friends in UTY and I wish an adaptation would show that. In a world where Chujin is still alive, Mooch is also a possible love interest for Starlo.>Martlet is a construction workerI like this since it fits her interests and can lead to humorous scenarios. She'll also be less miserable in this than in DRY1 where she's working retail or whatever. Honestly it fits this setting that the light world is cheerier while the dark world is...well, darker.
>>3916620>Mooch is also a possible love interest for Starlo.I think a lot of people go with the whole "height of consent" thing for mooch so you'll not see that too often I imagine.
>>3916617>I think someone like her would try her absolute hardest to find a way to redeem him even if its an insane ideaReplying to this because I can't help myself, but honestly I don't feel like that's an accurate read of her character. While she might feel some sympathy for Clover, in such a situation that Clover retains some memories of prior loops and Martlet has become aware of this somehow, I feel like the more likely response she'd have is something like how Prendergast responds to DFENS at the end of Falling Down."They lie to everybody, they lie to the fish, but that doesn't give you any special right to do what you did today.".Completely aside from the scenario presented in that one image, I think that if Martlet had the chance to see into Clover's memories, if they actually did have any from previous resets, I really don't think she'd change her mind about them, full-genocide Clover isn't the same as neutral Clover.
>>3916620>"Sage" is still obviously male however.other pics of the artist have this clover with eyelashes and the artist is also very lesbian focused so wouldn't put it behind them that this clover is female for that reason. probably a more "masculine" girl like some people interpret kris to bealso name used to be clova before sage
>>3916622I can't see it that way. she's someone who refused to believe humans were bad despite everyone telling her otherwise all her life, even to the point that a human could carve up a significant portion of the underground, and she'd still say "I still sense some good in you" to them. I personally think that if she crossed the line into being willing to kill them, but was given reason to believe that she was right, that if the human hadn't been tormented by something created by monsters, or a monster itself since she probably wouldn't know that flowey has no soul and just assume he's a monster, it would feedback right into her worldview, so if she had clover captured I think having that objective knowledge that he was pushed down this route by a monster would make her want more than anything to find any good left in his soul.
>>3916625to add on to this, I think sometimes about how Martlet would treat another human after a timeline where she killed genocide Clover. would just attack and kill humans on sight? what if she saw a human afterwards that embodied everything she wanted to believe a human could be before clover showed up? I think while she's committed to what she's doing when she goes zenith, she's the kind of person who would still want to believe there could be good in anyone she meets. its too core for her personality for me to believe it would go away completely just because she did what she had to.
>>3916625Yeah, but at the same time we also see what she thinks about Ceroba's actions and motivations, and it largely boils down to "Sorry that happened to you, but that doesn't excuse the terrible thing you're trying to do.", which I feel would mostly apply here to, especially since the terrible thing is already said and done, whereas Ceroba hadn't actually killed Clover yet.I get the idea that you're going off of here, that she's an idealist with a strong sense of what's right, but she's not Papyrus, she has limits, and we see this in-game. She clearly has a cut-off point where she'll look at Clover and see that any good in them was dead, and the alteration of that good in them having been stamped out by Flowey doesn't mean they still have that good in them, it just means they weren't necessarily the sole figure responsible. It means the good in them was killed, rather than just being absent, but that doesn't make it not dead.
>>3916626>would just attack and kill humans on sight? what if she saw a human afterwards that embodied everything she wanted to believe a human could be before clover showed up?I actually don't think she'd just kill any humans after geno Clover on sight necessarily, I think the more accurate picture would be effectively a more active version of Sans. As in, she'd probably actively observe any humans after Clover, and if they behave themselves then she'd be just fine with that, but she'd probably be willing to step in way sooner if they turn hostile, having learned her lesson with Clover the first time.
>>3916609This reminds me that I should read Crime and Punishment since I'm pretty sure it deals with this sort of moral problem.>>3916614It's hard to think of any fetish art fueling serious, non-sexual discussion to the same degree as this.>>3916617>I think someone like her would try her absolute hardest to find a way to redeem him even if its an insane ideaOh you're right though she would probably absorb the SOUL normally than use it as a form of IVF. Any of the main cast knowing about Flowey would completely change the story. Despite the game's themes revolving around justice, the entire situation is completely unjust because everyone is held captive by a sociopathic time traveler and nothing they can do will get them out of it. Even if one learned about Flowey, he would probably just instantly reset anyway. It's a deeply tragic story.>there's groundwork to go off of and thats enough for me you know?I do like it when games do this.>>3916621I think she's also canonically a minor (or at least too young to drink) in UTY, but she's also a longtime member of the Feisty Five so there isn't a crazy age difference. Shortstacks deserve justice.
>>3916627>It means the good in them was killed, rather than just being absent, but that doesn't make it not deadbut if she gets any evidence that the good in him could be revived, or that it wasn't truly dead, just forced unconscious by the actions of a monster.> but at the same time we also see what she thinks about Ceroba's actions and motivations, and it largely boils down to "Sorry that happened to you, but that doesn't excuse the terrible thing you're trying to do.",I don't think this fits her because she's one of the few people who takes the fact that clover is a child into consideration in how she treats him. It feels like the driving force behind a lot of her different neutral route speeches, including ones where she basically makes it clear that clovers fucked up, but she still believes they deserve a better life. I get what you're saying, but with clover being a kid, I genuinely believe if she had any inkling that there was more at play, especially the thought of someone manipulating a child, that she would latch onto that and try to find that hope. this is only in a timeline where she managed to subdue clover in some way such as absorption or something else, rather than killing them outright.The biggest thing for me, is that clover took her offer to live a violence free life hundreds of times if not more, if for some reason this absorption stopped floweys resets, and she learned about that, it would I think drive her to prove that clover could have been good if he'd been literally allowed to.I'm not meaning to explode this into another several hours of argument, but I really do think that's a core part of martlets personality, and even connects to how she waits so long to attack in her first fight since clover is a child.
>>3916631>but if she gets any evidence that the good in him could be revived, or that it wasn't truly dead, just forced unconscious by the actions of a monster.Just the idea that someone didn't turn out the way they did through their own efforts doesn't mean they can be reverted, it just means there was an external factor, those aren't the same thing.If Clover's reached the state they're in by the end of genocide, the state where they're willing to kill Martlet even after peering into her mind to find a justification to and not finding anything, the same state where Martlet actively states that any good in them is dead, I don't think the added context of them having been turned into this rather than having become this of their own volition is going to change anything.Again, it's a "cool motive, still murder" situation, I really don't think she'd be as lenient as you're insisting she would be, especially since if she could see the other timelines she'd be able to directly compare the timelines where Clover was actually receptive to what she said, in comparison to the genocide timeline where Clover draws a gun on her at the rooftop almost instantly.If anything, being able to compare what Clover was like before to what they are now might just solidify the idea that whatever good they had in them before is long since gone.>and even connects to how she waits so long to attack in her first fight since clover is a child.Clover is a child, but that doesn't stop Martlet from trying to kill them when she's already passed her judgement.
>>3916628I think that's about right, but I can't help but think that she may intervene in their journey a couple times at least. I don't think she'd just start thinking self defense was bad based on what was shown in flawed pacifist, and watching monsters attack a human that was trying to go in peace may make her act.
>>3916635Eh, maybe. I think most intervention she did would probably be her trying to ferry the human away from other monsters, as a form of preemptive damage control, I don't think she'd necessarily try to protect the human specifically.Like I said before, I think she'd basically be a more active version of Sans, always watching from the distance, but ready to step in when needed.
>>3916634>Just the idea that someone didn't turn out the way they did through their own efforts doesn't mean they can be reverted, it just means there was an external factor, those aren't the same thing.they aren't the same thing, but this isn't a matter of objective logic, but how Martlet would see things, and I really believe that if she felt there was any chance that this terrible version of clover was not solely his fault, and that there could have been a kinder soul if not for that time travelers meddling, I think it would drive her to prove that to herself.>"cool motive, still murder" That doesn't sound like marlet to me with how she reacts in any other variation of the people clover could have killed. she goes the opposite direction, even trying to say maybe clover was doing self defense when he first comes out of the ruins covered in dust.>Clover is a child, but that doesn't stop Martlet from trying to kill them when she's already passed her judgement.it's what makes her wait so so very long to pass that judgement, and I do not believe that someone that waited for 80 people to be killed before making a judgement, doesn't still desperately wish there could have been another way, and if any hint of that way showed up, I wholeheartedly believe that being the kind of person she is, she would go for it.
>>3916616If Clover just decided to kill a bunch of monsters in the Underground on whim, for no real good reason, other than just for the sake of it. Yeah, it would be pretty hard to see Clover as a redeemable individual.However Clover's circumstance for lack of a better term, is mind bogglingly insane. We know from Flowey's account, that he's manipulated Clover into doing hundreds, thousands, potentially millions of resets, and while Clover doesn't fully remember what happens during a run after a reset, he vaguely remembers something to where, every time Flowey resets, he behaves ever so slightly differently each time.We also know from Flowey, that if isn't for him gaslighting and manipulating Clover to do the stuff that he did, he would have stayed with Toriel, or better yet with Martlet, something that Clover would always choose to do in every Neutral run, no matter the variation, including an aborted Genocide.There's clear evidence that if Clover had his way, he wouldn't go on a killing spree, and would be perfectly fine with living with Martlet. And we also know that if Clover does end up killing someone, chances are it's because of Flowey's machinations. So if we take all that into account, especially the part where every reset causes Clover to behave slightly differently each time, because of all the messed stuff he experienced in a previous run, then eventually there would be a reset where Clover would just subconsciously crash out, as a direct result of all of Flowey's resets.Then there's fact Genocide can in fact happen as part of the story, and Geno Clover's the one to reset. Meaning he feels guilt and remorse for what he did, to undo everything.So can Clover be redeemed? In my opinion, yes he most certainly can, someone just needs to see beyond the surface.>>3916618I encourage all that! I want people to express themselves in their art, fics, or opinions on a subject! That fact my work resulted in such strong discussions makes me happy.
>>3916638>even trying to say maybe clover was doing self defense when he first comes out of the ruins covered in dust.Yes, at first, but she pretty quickly gives up on that once she realizes what's going on.>I wholeheartedly believe that being the kind of person she is, she would go for it.Clover used their powers to peer into her mind to try and find justification for killing her. Martlet even acknowledges this. If there was ever a sign that geno Clover actually had something going on behind their eyes and wasn't just a mindless killing machine, that was it, and Martlet didn't seem to take that as meaning much of anything.Hell, Sans actually tries harder to talk Frisk down than Martlet does with Clover by the end of genocide, and Sans has way more reasons to think that Frisk is wholeheartedly evil.Honestly, I think Martlet being able to see Clover's previous timelines might actually help convince her of what Chujin said to her, because she'd basically have a full look into how a human can go from being a complete pacifist into being a genocidal maniac who ruthlessly hunts people down to slaughter them, she'd be able to watch each iteration of their meeting on the rooftop, as Clover goes from being willing to lay down their arms and accept Martlet's offer, to cutting straight to the point and drawing a gun on her as soon as they have the chance.If anything, I think she might come to the conclusion that there was some good in Clover at one point, if she's even able to make sense of the concept of timelines just from looking into their memories, but that wouldn't change anything about the ruthless killer standing in front of her, because she'd be able to literally see the difference.
>>3916644>but that wouldn't change anything about the ruthless killer standing in front of her, because she'd be able to literally see the difference.if she had him subdued I don't agree. she was mid fighting him to the death when he peered into her memories, and was still raring to fight.the biggest key for me, is the fact that it could be hundreds or even thousands of times, but Clover would have chosen the right thing every single one of those times across all of time and space. Clover doing the right thing one thousand times, and then suddenly doing something that went against everything every other version of clover did is going to if anything tell her that there's more potential for good in him than evil. I mean really think about that, no matter how many times Flowey ran clover through loops before we get ahold of the game, clover doesn't do a genocide run.she also justifies clovers violence in some situations as self defence, in a way she could see that his bitter insistence on gunning down all in front of him are like his self defense in absolute overdrive. If she can remind him of who he used to be, there may be hope and I think for someone who was willing to stand by and watch tens of people get gunned down in the chance of finding the human worth sparing, she'd bite down on this opportunity fiercely.
>>3916641>Then there's fact Genocide can in fact happen as part of the story, and Geno Clover's the one to reset.I know the devs said that in the anniversary stream or whatever, but they're wrong, that's not how time travel works in UT. A person who acquires the ability to manipulate the timeline in UT can only ever go back to as far as they have a save file, which they appear to get when they first obtain the power itself, hence why Flowey can't just reset to when he was Asriel, and why Frisk can reset themselves back to before they fell into the underground. (As for why Frisk can reset even after Flowey breaks their save file in front of them, I figure that's something of a parallel to how Frisk can still use their MERCY button despite it having been broken by Asgore).Anyway, remorse or not, Clover should only be able to reset to just after they killed Martlet, in accordance with how UT shows the time powers to work.As for the rest of this, honestly, I think we all already know how I think about all that.I guess I shouldn't be surprised really, that despite everything, people here think that even the worst person can change.Oh well.
>>3916653>A person who acquires the ability to manipulate the timeline in UT can only ever go back to as far as they have a save filewhat if it worked because clover "almost" had enough determination when he fell down and so it created an original reset point that he couldn't access or know about until he reached lv 20. or what if he had the actual DT required the whole time, but didn't have enough gumption in him to access such a power until then, so the furthest it went was him hearing floweys voice well after he died, and remembering deaths when flowey loaded? Alls I know is, the game can be reset in the genocide route all the way back even with flowey dead so its "correct" for yellow and just needs justifications to make it work.
>>3916653>this whole discussion has been an anonymous argument between papyrus and sans on if even the worst person can changekind of a funny thought.
>>3916653https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBbRJoHTJAM&list=RDvBbRJoHTJAM&start_radio=1you see, I still believe in miracles, I swear I've seen a few.
>>3916651>no matter how many times Flowey ran clover through loops before we get ahold of the game, clover doesn't do a genocide run.Yeah, because every loop before that Clover just stayed with Toriel every time, not really a whole lot of room for variation there.And UTY doesn't draw much of a distinction between (you) and Clover, so any actions we commit as the player can't necessarily be discounted as being separate from Clover's own actions, which means it's also totally possible that the very first thing Clover did after being forced out the loop with Toriel was go on a massive killing spree, who's to say?>she also justifies clovers violence in some situations as self defence, in a way she could see that his bitter insistence on gunning down all in front of him are like his self defense in absolute overdrive.In some situations she's willing to let some things slide as self-defense, but I don't think she'd be willing to make that same call after having already reached the point at the rooftop, and even outside of that there are instances where she flat-out recognizes that Clover killed people for no reason, but is still willing to let it slide because Clover didn't immediately draw their gun.That last bit is the breaking point, that's where Martlet sees Clover as being too far over the line to be worth trying to reason with, and that's where she injects the serum.For as much as you're arguing that she'd readily seize any chance where Clover seems to have anything left in them, I notice you didn't address the part in an earlier reply of mine where I point out that this basically happens, and she instead opts to double down on the fact that what Clover is doing is wrong, rather than trying to seriously break through to them.
>>3916654Interesting, but not supported by the original lore, so not something we can take as being a reliable fact when talking about time-travel mechanics in UT.
>>3916657>Yeah, because every loop before that Clover just stayed with Toriel every time, not really a whole lot of room for variation there.he says that clover stayed with the bird every timehe also talks about him always choosing to stay with martlet meaning thats not new either. your first run playing the game isn't the first run clovers been through the underground.
>>3916651I get it, you like her so much that you want her to do what you think is best to get a happy ending out of an unlikely situation, but the fact of the matter is that if she was willing to try and get through to Clover in a genocide route, she had her chance, and she willingly didn't take it. Clover peering into her mind is the only instance in the whole genocide route where there seems to be some genuine thought and complexity behind their actions, if there was ever a time to try and get through to them, that was it. That was her chance. She didn't take it.If anything, that's kinda the point of UTY's genocide route, that her idealism and willingness to see past the surface of someone doing terrible things is what allows that person to continue on their rampage and eventually beat her even after she draws the line.As Sans put it, "this is what happens when guys like me take it easy.".I get it, but I'm really sorry to say that your interpretation of her just doesn't add up to what we see in-game.
>>3916658the problem is we know for a fact that a reset can happen despite flowey being down and having lost control of the timeline, and that its not "the player" since (you) are only barely hinted at at best. In the game for some reason clover is able to reset all the way back to the start, so from there we just have to come up with justifications since its a fact of yellow that doesn't really fit with the main game at face value.
>>3916661>I get it, you like her so much that you want her to do what you think is best to get a happy ending out of an unlikely situation,come on man, don't cheapen the discussion like that. These are my evaluations of the character just like yours belong to you. just because we don't see eye to eye on the matter doesn't mean I've got an inherrently broken read on her character, especially not when I'm providing examples of her actions that support it. I feel I've been respectful of your interpretation but that's terribly dismissive.
>>3916662The justification is that it's just non-canon, since there's no in-universe way to reconcile that ending with the established lore of UT.It's just non-canonical, a fun "what if?", but not something that could ever actually occur in the context of the universe of UT.
>>3916653It's worth mentioning as someone else pointed out in another thread that whenever a reset happens, it always begins at the Underground entrance. Almost as if that's a universal original point. Even without a save file, it always begins there.Plus your explanation for why Frisk can reset after their save file is destroyed, doesn't really make much sense. It's one thing to still use mercy, when a monster tried to force you to kill them, but it's another things entirely when space and time is being involved.There's no evidence that a save file that's been completely destroyed can be restored, and as of that moment Frisk lost control over the power to save and load, so by your logic Frisk getting it back in that moment should result in that place being his new started point. But like I mentioned earlier when a reset happens, it's always the Underground entrance.And in Undertale Yellow, when Clover gets the ability to reset and he does, he ends up at the underground entrance. Regardless it's shown that Clover can reset back to that point just like Frisk and Flowey. There isn't any set rules or limitations in regards to how this works, but the point is Clover can reset and undo everything he did, and after doing a genocide he did just that.
>>3916663I'm looking at the same game you are, same dialogue, same sprites, same story with the same events, past a certain point it stops being about interpretations.Your idea, as you've described it in the simplest terms earlier in this discussion, is that you believe that Martlet would be willing to try and settle things peacefully with Clover at the end of a genocide run, if only she had been given an indication that there was some good left in them that could potentially be salvaged, in her own eyes.What I am telling you now, is that those exact circumstances occurred within the events of UTY's genocide route, and the opposite of what you said would happen happened.Clover stopped fighting her to try and find anything, any possible justification to kill her, something they never did with any other monster at any point in the genocide route, something that would indicate some kind of special, specific thing about Martlet in Clover's eyes, and Martlet acknowledges that Clover is doing this, verbally, before she resumes fighting, but rather than attempt to break through to Clover as she tried to do multiple times earlier in the genocide route, she continues trying to kill them.This isn't just a discussion of headcanon like it was earlier, we're talking about Martlet's character as she appears in-game, and the fact of the matter is that your interpretation is wrong.I'm not trying to be mean, but it's just wrong. It's fine if that's your idealized version of the character, how you'd *like* her to be, but on a very fundamental level there is a major difference between Martlet as you perceive her versus Martlet as she is shown to behave in-game.That's not even a bad thing by itself, but you should recognize that this is indeed the case.
>>3916523I was hoping Dadlo for a change. But, the “who adopts Clover” thing is usually determined by who the creator likes betterGreat illustrations, but I’m not sure why Starlo is a cop. He canonically doesn’t like the monster equivalent of them (the Royal Guard) in UTY. Maybe he was pressured into it, but I always saw DRY Starlo as a farmer who failed to live up to his (Western) actor dreams, unlike his UTY equivalent. So, he copes with it via the dark world
>>3916668>There's no evidence that a save file that's been completely destroyed can be restored, and as of that moment Frisk lost control over the power to save and load, so by your logic Frisk getting it back in that moment should result in that place being his new started point.I argued in my post that Frisk regaining their Save slot was a parallel to them also regaining their MERCY button after it was destroyed, but yes, there technically isn't any explicit evidence that this is indeed the case.>Almost as if that's a universal original point.Flowey wouldn't have began at the flower bed from before the Ruins, since he was created by the royal scientist in Hotland, and the Ruins door has always been sealed shut from the other side, meaning he can't have originated there.I think the more logical answer is that the power only works beyond the threshold of the barrier for whatever reason, and the flower bed is simply the place where fallen humans are most like to fall into the underground, aside from the other end of the underground where Chara likely fell.>It's one thing to still use mercy, when a monster tried to force you to kill them, but it's another things entirely when space and time is being involved.Both are mechanics that are fundamentally tied to UI elements in-universe, so it's not necessarily correct to differentiate them on a conceptual level simply because the concept of sparing someone is different than the concept of controlling time. It's not the actual concepts that matter, it's the in-universe mechanics that do, and they're both tied to buttons.
>>3916653>A person who acquires the ability to manipulate the timeline in UT can only ever go back to as far as they have a save fileThat's never been an established rule of how saving, loading, and resetting works. When you have the most determination you can create a save file that overwrites a previous save, and with that save you can load.For whatever reason resetting always results in you ended up at the bottom of the hole of Mt Ebott, so it's safe to say if you reset regardless of when you got control of saving and loading, that's where your going to end up.If we take all that into account, Clover being able to reset back to that point after getting the power to do so doesn't break any lore, as it falls in line with how it's functioned in Undertale.
>>3916670>I'm looking at the same game you are, same dialogue, same sprites, same story with the same events, past a certain point it stops being about interpretations.how a character would act in a hypothetical situation is absolutely up to interpretation, and the situation you described is not exactly the same because A, they were mid fighting, combat didn't end in any way, and B clover was not subdued. This situation is if anything evidence to martlet at that moment that he's got no good in him, because he attacks despite finding nothing. This is nothing like the scenario of her finding evidence to the contrary that there is good in him.you're dismissing my point, comparing it to something that isn't the same at all, and then giving me this "you're objectively wrong and just saying this because you like the character". I provided many examples that back up my way of thinking on this matter, the situation in the hypothetical never happens in the game, and so its completely up to interpretation. doing this "I get that you're only saying this because you like the character" thing is in poor taste after hours of sincere discussion. It would have been preferrable if you just said "you have shit taste idiot" rather than approach it like that.I have done the best I can to respect your interpretation while providing in character examples of things that have happened in the game to support my view on her, what her values are, and why I think she would fall back on those values in this situation. With this much backing, it absolutely remains a matter of perspective and interpretations.
>>3916676>When you have the most determination you can create a save file that overwrites a previous save, and with that save you can load.Wrong, obviously wrong, for really obvious reasons.You can only ever load as far back as you have a save file to load from, which seems to correspond to when one acquires the power to begin with, it's like Primer, you can only go as far back in time as the machine was actually on for.How can we tell this is the case? Simple, you can't load a save from a time when someone else had the power, even if you're the one with the power now. Frisk can never load a save from when Flowey was still the one in charge, they can only load from they first acquired the power. They also can't ever load out of the underground, because they didn't have the power at that point.Flowey can't load a save from when he was Asriel, he explicitly states that when he tried to let himself die but had second thoughts, he woke back up as Flowey again. This is because he didn't have a save file as Asriel, because he didn't have the power as Asriel.>For whatever reason resetting always results in you ended up at the bottom of the hole of Mt EbottBecause, for Frisk, that's where they landed after they first acquired the power to save and load, it's not just about the location, it's just where they happened to be when they got the power.
>>3916675>Flowey wouldn't have began at the flower bed from before the Ruins, since he was created by the royal scientist in Hotland.Flowey is Asriel Dreemur, and the flower bed is where he died along with Chara when there were basically a godlike entity. You know like Hyperdeath Asriel. They would literally have all the determination in the world, and if every time a reset happens, that's where you end up, it stands to reason they're responsible for the flower bed being the reset point.If Frisk resets, they end up on the flowey bed. If the player resets, they start at the flowey bed. That flowey bed is quite literally where everything began, it makes sense when a reset happens you always end up there.
>>3916681nta, but didn't he actually die in the throne room? or is that just a fan art I'm thinking of.
>>3916682>>3916681also I do like the idea of the flower bed being where resets lead to because its where chara is buried.
>>3916682I'm not sure myself, but it was stated he died and then his dust scattered on the flowers.I also don't think it's a coincidence you find Asriel there when you want to speak to him.Whatever the case, there's something about that flowey bed, that causes it to always be where you start your journey.
>>3916677>This situation is if anything evidence to martlet at that moment that he's got no good in him, because he attacks despite finding nothing.This situation is actually a perfect example of the kind of thing you were talking about, because it shows that even after everything that's happened, Clover's still hesitant about killing her, and is actively trying to justify it to themself, as if their actual commitment to what they're doing is wavering.And despite this, instead of capitalizing on it, like you said Martlet would if she ever had the chance, during a moment where neither one of them was actually actively attacking each other, she instead chooses to double down on trying to kill them, continuing the fight. She even acknowledges this in her dialogue. She sees Clover hesitating, vocally acknowledges that they've never done this with anyone else, and instead of trying to use that chance to try and get through to them on the hope that there's something good left in them, she doubles down.>doing this "I get that you're only saying this because you like the character" thing is in poor taste after hours of sincere discussion. It would have been preferrable if you just said "you have shit taste idiot" rather than approach it like that.I'm sorry man, I really don't wanna be mean here, and I'm trying to convey this as best I can, but this is like when people on Twitter said that Spamton wouldn't sell NFTs when he literally runs an in-game scam shop.It's fine to think of a character as being something they aren't, it's fine to have a view of a character that contradicts what their source material shows and says about them, but that doesn't make it a valid interpretation of the character, that just makes it your own personal version of that character.And again, that's fine, *your* version of Martlet would act as you say she would, a-ok, but that is an entirely separate thing from the Martlet we're shown in-game.
>>3916681>Flowey is Asriel Dreemur, and the flower bed is where he died along with Chara when there were basically a godlike entity. You know like Hyperdeath Asriel. Wrong, Asriel died in the flower garden on the other side of the underground. We know this because Flowey was made from a flower that Asriel's dust had landed on, and said flower couldn't have been retrieved from the flower bed where Frisk falls down because that's on the other side of the Ruins door, which we know has been locked from the other side ever since Toriel went into self-imposed exile.The flower bed Asriel died on is likely the one seen in Asgore's throne room, not the one at the entrance to the underground.
>>3916690>I'm sorry man, I really don't wanna be mean here, and I'm trying to convey this as best I can,the problem is it's like you're only half reading what I'm saying, then going and talking about this grand flaw in my way of thinking fundamentally.>like you said Martlet would if she ever had the chanceClover is not subdued, and is still actively engaged in a fight with her, he also did not show her any sign of good in him by doing this, because despite not finding any reason to kill her, he's still ready to fight right then and there. It is fundamentally different from the situation I am and have been describing but you're so sure of your view on the character that you keep on cutting out significant portions of what I'm saying from the response.she see's no indication from this that clover isn't a cold killer at heart, because again, despite finding nothing, it changes nothing about how clover acts here. This scene would be more confirmation to martlets believe that Clover has Zero good in him, unlike what learning the truth about why a child is acting like this would do. Those idiots who say spamton wouldn't sell NFT also aren't backing up what they say with in game examples of the characters behavior. THOSE are the people who are treating him like their little scrungly comfort character. I've brought up multiple instances of things martlet has said or done, that support this interpretation because it's not about "oh I need my character to do as I would rather them do". Ideally she wouldn't do things like leave clover alone to get attacked by monsters every chance available in the pacifist route but that's not going to happen because she's a bit of a fuck up, but when it comes down to her values there's tons of supporting information that justifies it.
>>3916690>>3916697the problem here is that you see clovers actions in the part where he sees her memories as "that sign there's still good" when it actually just serves to further condemn geno clovers character like how he shot starlo even if you lose the quick draw, or how he kills Axis while he's begging for mercy. it shows more thoroughly how far gone he is, and isn't in any way the "sign that there's something else under the surface" that is being sought after.
>>3916681>>3916691>>3916683>>3916688Whatever the case may be, now that's it been brought up, like these other anons said, there's something about that flowey bed that causes it to be where you always end up if you reset.It literally doesn't matter who does it, player, human, or flower, because you always end up in that spot when a reset happens.
>>3916699I like the idea that something is special about that spot, because of how that's still the reset point even after Frisk temporarily loses control of the save powers. everything all comes back to the flower bed.
>>3916697>still actively engaged in a fight with her, he also did not show her any sign of good in him by doing this, because despite not finding any reason to kill her, he's still ready to fight right then and there. Except they aren't, because they aren't fighting her. Compare it to earlier in the genocide route, Clover cuts Martlet off in both the Dunes and on the rooftop, pulling a gun on her before she's even finished talking, not willing to hear her out at all.But now that it's come right down to it and they're actually having a real fight? They hesitate. They hold their fire. They let Martlet speak to them, and instead of Martlet capitalizing on this sudden break from Clover's previous behavior, she continues the fight.And by the way, it's not even Clover who continues the fight, she's the one who stands back up with her Vergil one-liner and keeps trying to kill Clover.That's that man, I dunno what to tell you.When faced with the opportunity, the only actual opportunity she's been given, to talk to Clover and try and actually get through to them in order to stop all this senseless violence, she willingly, knowingly threw it away.What you say to that, or to me, it doesn't matter anymore, this has gone from being a conversation about headcanon, to interpretation of the game's text, to you just outright ignoring said text.Which is fair, honestly, UTY's got a lot of stupid text, but that doesn't change what's what, and what's what is that your idea of Martlet just isn't Martlet.
>>3916699I mean, we really only have the two examples to go off of, that's far from a closed case.
>>3916707>That's that man, I dunno what to tell you.The battle does not end there, the fight has not ended. we know that fight and act command buttons are tangible things in the world and clover intends to use them as soon as they are available again because clover isn't "controlled by us". he's the one pushing the fight forward there. Its clearly set up to show how he's acting in pursuit of "justice" with him killing Starlo being flimsily justifiable as things you could say like "the duel isn't over" or "he shot me" even though it was with a pellet, pointing a gun at non hostile shopkeepers, Slaughtering axis who begged for mercy, and continuing a fight with Martlet despite not being able to justify it. it more and more epitomizes that this isn't about justice, but about vengeance. Notice Martlet didn't say a single word about clover trying to stand down or trying to give up, he didn't try to stop the fight, he just tried looking for justification. There's also no options in the act menu that imply that clover is not wanting to fight after the halfway point crosses. He shows no sign of good for her to pick up on there and acting like he does is disingenuous at best.> and what's what is that your idea of Martlet just isn't Martlet.at this point you've got your head in the sand and for all of your what you've said, you're doubling down on things that don't connect to the point I was making at all and acting like it is the exact same as the hypothetical scenario that does not indeed happen in any way in the actual game.That said this should have ended the moment you started putting down my arguments like it was from twitter or something. I remain convinced that you have sorely misunderstood the character, but I'm not going to pull some insulting nonsense like that out. I hope you have a good day, and I hope our future conversations can be like the first half of this discussion was.
>>3916713>we know that fight and act command buttons are tangible things in the world and clover intends to use them as soon as they are available again because clover isn't "controlled by us".Clover doesn't even get to have their turn at the point I'm talking about, Martlet goes straight on the offensive as soon as she stands back up.If you're making the argument that Clover has the power to use their button commands independently from us, then that actually implies that Clover willingly stood there and let her continue speaking, a clear break from the multiple times they draw a gun on her and refuse to hear her out. This isn't helping your argument pal.>you're doubling down on things that don't connect to the point I was making at all and acting like it is the exact same as the hypothetical scenario that does not indeed happen in any way in the actual game.It's not the exact same, exactitude isn't the point here. You're also missing the point with the whole "justification" thing. People who are 100% steadfast in their beliefs and actions don't need justification, they "know" that what they do is right.For Clover to have held their fire, and actively sought something to justify their actions towards Martlet, that indicates that their commitment, their determination, if you will, was wavering, which would be the first time throughout the entire genocide route that such a thing happened.You and that other guy argued that that wasn't an indication that there could still be something left of them, but I really don't know how else you'd explain that then, that seems like a pretty blatant denial of the text.
>>3916713>That said this should have ended the moment you started putting down my argumentsI put down your arguments because the game itself directly contradicted them. Not all ideas or viewpoints are valid and worthy of equal respect, if someone says something that explicitly contradicts what the game says, that's not a valid argument, that's just headcanon, which is irrelevant in a discussion of text.>I remain convinced that you have sorely misunderstood the character, but I'm not going to pull some insulting nonsense like thatI'm sorry you think being told that the game disagrees with you on how a character would behave in a given situation, but that's how that is.Hey, that's what fanfiction's for, and Toby's more than encouraging of that sort of thing. UTY is one, after all.>I hope you have a good day, and I hope our future conversations can be like the first half of this discussion was.I hope you have a good one too, see ya around.
>>3916716>For Clover to have held their fire, and actively sought something to justify their actions towards Martlet, that indicates that their commitment, their determination, if you will, was wavering, which would be the first time throughout the entire genocide route that such a thing happened.I'm saying he held his fire because the battle menu wasn't up. this world is after all tied to game rules like that even if characters break them to varying extents from time to time. Martlet was going through a phase change, the hero can not attack the boss while he's transforming in rpgs, but as soon as he could again it was all out war. There isn't an option to back down , talk to her, anything like that because such a thought was not on clovers mind. >People who are 100% steadfast in their beliefs and actions don't need justification, they "know" that what they do is right.but clover keeps on killing despite not finding the justification he wants. this shows that he's willing to kill even when there's no justification, which is further condemnation of his character.the point of this being, clover stopping for a moment to see her memories doesn't show a sign that there's good inside, he stops for a moment yes, he's looking for a reason absolutely, but the fact that he can still continue fighting without justification shows that this not only has nothing to do with justice, but that he's lost the plot. >exactitude isn't the point here.its not about exactitude, its that this is the exact opposite of the hypothetical because it fundamentally shows martlet the opposite of what I'm saying could make her pause.>>3916718>I'm sorry you think being told that the game disagrees with you on how a character would behave in a given situation, but that's how that is.that's just a disrespectful way to talk to someone you're disagreeing with. I've provided enough supporting information for what I've said that I don't think such a response was ever called for.
>>3916720>I'm saying he held his fire because the battle menu wasn't up.Except Clover didn't *need* the battle menu to attack her, since they have their projectile attack by this point, which functions entirely separate from the battle UI. Clover abstaining from even using that, and letting Martlet actually speak, is a massive departure from their behavior in the entire rest of the route, where they repeatedly draw their gun on her, cut her off, or straight to attacking her in their first battle together. I'm not arguing they were gonna turn on a dime if Martlet tried to get through to them there, I'm not saying she could've actually turned them around like she does in the various neutral routes, I'm saying the opportunity was clearly present as evidenced by Clover trying to justify their actions to themself, and by them holding their fire and hearing her out, even if Martlet didn't end up taking that opportunity.I genuinely don't understand how you can argue against this idea, while simultaneously arguing that Martlet would be willing to settle things peacefully with Clover under the assumption that they *aren't* hesitating here after defeating them. That makes no sense.>but the fact that he can still continue fighting without justification shows that this not only has nothing to do with justice, but that he's lost the plot. Again, *Clover* isn't the one who keeps the fight going, Martlet is. Clover is entirely passive after the first memory scene, Martlet's the one who stands up and starts her attack as soon as she's done talking.
>>3916720>exact opposite of the hypothetical because it fundamentally shows martlet the opposite of what I'm saying could make her pause.Except it doesn't, because on a fundamental level the thing she's being shown is a difference in Clover's behavior, in my example it's Clover hesitating to fight her, in your idea it's the other timelines showing how different Clover used to be, but what you aren't realizing is that these two things are fundamentally the same in what they actually mean: that Clover isn't *truly* like this. Whether she sees it through a break in Clover's facade, or through a direct comparison through their memories, both of these things fundamentally show that this isn't what they really are, and they aren't behaving how they normally do.And in spite of this, in spite of Martlet seeing a clear break in Clover's behavior, acknowledging verbally that something about them's changed, she's the one to go on the offensive once they're done talking.That's my point. You're missing the forest for the trees here.>that's just a disrespectful way to talk to someone you're disagreeing with. I've provided enough supporting information for what I've said that I don't think such a response was ever called for.I'm sorry if you feel disrespected, and I meant what I said earlier about not wanting to be mean about all this, but I really don't know how to go on with someone who'll just turn a blind eye to in-game evidence like this and insist things aren't as they are. I really, honestly do not know what to tell you here. You keep dismissing Clover's hesitation as being anything of note, the single instance of them wavering on their genocidal campaign in the true genocide route, saying it doesn't mean anything, and then you turn around start talking about the events of the battle like you don't even know what you're talking about. I don't know how you can expect me to engage with something like that in good faith here, I really don't.
Look, at this rate you and I are gonna keep going back and forth on this until sunrise, and I don't think either one of us wants that.You got your ideas, and I got mine, and we'll never see eye to eye on them.So, let's just call it here, huh?I think we both have better things to do.
>>3916724>Except Clover didn't *need* the battle menu to attack her, since they have their projectile attack by this point, which functions entirely separate from the battle UI.I know, but even the hp readout and all of that is gone. its clearly a "transformation sequence" type of moment which I think was a time that clover couldn't attack. Her health bar is up at all moments that he's able to do damage after all.>, I'm saying the opportunity was clearly present as evidenced by Clover trying to justify their actions to themselfI do agree 100 percent, but I'm saying that him continuing to fight despite finding no justification would tell Martlet the opposite of what I think it would take for her to stop fighting, and I don't think it would be cannon to take your hands off the keyboard and let her kill you there to make that point because clover isn't officially being controlled by "us". his killing intent is still there, clover can launch an attack before any of her attacks are even on the screen. I feel like clover doesn't ever stop pointing his gun at her, Clover doesn't have any act options that show any hesitance to fight. This one is a bit of an assumption on my part but with how she talks about sensing good in him, and with how killing intent is a large part of what hurts monsters, AND that the mercy act in the original undertale instruction book describes mercy as "emitting peaceful magic that shows the monster you don't want to fight" I feel like its clear as day that clover was ready to fight to the death still despite having no justification.
How many posts is this Clover redemption argument at now?
>>3916727>and I meant what I said earlier about not wanting to be mean about all thisthe problem is, saying that, and then saying something truly disrespecful doesn't really come together. its like telling someone "don't take this personal" and then saying something really personal. You compared me to a twitter user anon, that's a low blow. At least my, by your standards, incorrect version of the character was still built from things I saw in the game. Its a bit pathetic of me, but with how we were both taking the argument sincerely on both sides for all that time, it felt like a surprise gut check.
>>3916730Also, not even arguing at this point, but again, Clover isn't the one to keep fighting, Martlet is. If you're arguing they should've ended the fight if they truly felt hesitant, then that conflicts with what you just said about them not being able to use their commands while Martlet was speaking (which there is no evidence for also), so in that case the fault lies with Martlet.I also actively stated that I don't necessarily think Clover would've actually turned even if Martlet had taken the opportunity, my point was that the opportunity was there and she didn't take it.Your reply here is really emblematic of this discussion as a whole, you just aren't responding to what I'm actually saying, just recycling the same points over and over again and ignoring everything else.
>>3916732like 200 or something
>>3916736>Your reply here is really emblematic of this discussion as a whole, you just aren't responding to what I'm actually saying, just recycling the same points over and over again and ignoring everything else.what? I addressed that in the second half of that post. you say martlet continued the fight but both people started attacking again at the same time, and clover is able to launch an attack before she even has one out, and is the one who draws his gun on her first before the fight even begins. He hesitates then long enough to let her give a speech and then transform, why doesn't that pause mean anything? She's just standing there but he initiates the battle scene, has clear killing intent, and is just waiting for her to finish talking. Wouldn't it make more sense if instead of showing some good in his heart, since we know he has some kind of respect for her, that he was waiting until she was ready?I'm not trying to not respond to what you're saying, and I thought I addressed it with my ideas in the later half of that post, but clovers pause waiting for her to be ready feels more like a sign of his respect than anything.
>>3916733>the problem is, saying that, and then saying something truly disrespecful doesn't really come together. its like telling someone "don't take this personal" and then saying something really personal.If you're taking "I think you misinterpreted how this character would behave but headcanoning them as acting that way is fine" as a personal attack on you directly, I think you might be a bit more invested in this than is reasonable at this point.>You compared me to a twitter user anon, that's a low blow.Oh come on now, we're doing this dumb tribalist bullshit? For fuck's sake man, you can't seriously get mad about me comparing you to someone who uses one of the biggest and most frequented sites on the internet as if that's a serious blow to you as a person, get real.>Its a bit pathetic of me, but with how we were both taking the argument sincerely on both sides for all that time, it felt like a surprise gut check.I don't know what to tell you man, I admire having such a deep connection and passion for this topic and UTY, I certainly have a deep connection to things like that myself, but you can't be getting that heated over this, you've gotta maintain some separation here. Like, my connection to this argument is over the disagreement between your views and the game's text, whereas you seem to have a much more personal stake in this, which on some level I can respect, but you should never engage in an argument without being willing to be or be called flat-out wrong.
>>3916732Honestly it's not even about that anymore, it's gotten much more specific.And stupid.
>>3916732I wonder if it's like the time someone got caught spamming AI replies and it got stuck in a loop instead of successfully pretending to be a person arguing.
>>3916738>I addressed that in the second half of that post.I said what I said that you just now replied to in response to you continuing to say that Clover is the one who continued the fight, when the game shows us that this isn't the case. Your response about the magic aura that sparing gives off isn't relevant here because sparing is an instant command, it doesn't give off an aura before it's actually used, and they couldn't have used it anyway because Martlet's name wasn't yellow, because *she* wasn't sparing *them*. >Wouldn't it make more sense if instead of showing some good in his heart, since we know he has some kind of respect for her, that he was waiting until she was ready?Why would they be searching for justification if the only reason they're holding their fire is because they respect her as a combatant and not because they're having doubts about if what they're doing is just? That doesn't make any sense.
>>3916742When was that? Because this definitely isn't the first time someone's accused me of being an AI when I've been having a discussion with someone, I think the last time was the one I made that Halo: Reach comparison in.
>>3916740It's a good thing the Drawanon can't see this lol. I'm sure they'd that want the discussion to be civil.Or maybe can they see it, and just haven't said anything.
Man, I had things I wanted to do today.Work to do, tits to draw, so many plans...
>>3916746Honestly I'm not even mad, I feel like we're both just engaging in an internet slap fight by now.I even tried to spare this guy earlier, but it just kept going.Heh, is that ironic or what?I guess that makes me the optimist for once.
>>3916739I was typing up a whole autistic response to that but I deleted it because this is honestly stupid at this point. I don't mind being called wrong even if I don't think I was. I expect the dismissive tone on this site, but I guess it caught me off guard because we'd been much more cordial through the whole discussion, as well as in these threads up til that point.>>3916748>sparecome on now anon its this kind of stuff that made me want to autistically reply in the first place. I still think I'm right, and you still think you're right, and I'm quite ok with that. I just couldn't wrangle my autism when you dismissed all what I had been saying as if it was a twitter post. I don't mean it as tribalism, there's just no good discussion there with how that site is.So yes, I accept that I was stupidly continuing the argument when I should have dropped it hours ago. I still don't agree with a word you've said, but I've gone from worrying I shit up the thread, to knowing for a fact I've shit up the thread.maybe this response is still autistic, but I'll make peace with that and sink back into the ocean of anonymity.
>>3916751I want you to know that I genuinely let out the biggest sigh of disappointment when I saw another reply in this train wreck of a thread. >I expect the dismissive tone on this site, but I guess it caught me off guard because we'd been much more cordial through the whole discussion, as well as in these threads up til that point.Alright, that's actually fair. I'm used to being blunt in arguments because I've had the misfortune of talking with some very stupid people in real life and on the internet, like a guy who thought world war 2 ended in the 1950's, or a guy who really sincerely thought that dogs can't perceive two dimensional images as seen on tv screens, so I occasionally do just have to tell someone that they're wrong and don't have a valid point to make in an argument.>I don't mean it as tribalism, there's just no good discussion there with how that site is.Eh, I've seen some decent discussion on twitter.In the past anyway, but you know, still.>I've gone from worrying I shit up the thread, to knowing for a fact I've shit up the thread.No.*We* shit up the thread. You and I, together. We couldn't have done it alone.And for that, you have my respect.Even if I still don't agree with a single thing you've said.
>>3916751>>3916746Oh I was here the whole time, and was admittedly invested in how this discussion was going.Happy to see both of you anons guys are incredibly passionate about your views, ideas, and opinions.Nothing with expressing yourselves.
>>3916755Glad we could be tonight's entertainment.
>>3916755It is our strong feelings about the game, its world, and characters that brings us together here at the end of the day. I wont quote the other anon to spare him another reply in this thread, but have a good night everyone, and here's to hoping we find many things to discuss in the next thread as well.
>>3916756Honestly I found this entire thread to be entertaining. It's been a while since I've seen it be this active, and frequent, as well as being sharing a lor of there ideas and thoughts on something, which in this case was the relationship between Zenith Martlet and Clover, and Clover's at his worst being helped by Martlet once subdued.If things started getting to out of hand, I was going to say something, but it resolved itself so that's good.Don't feel bad about expressing yourself, it happens. Heated discussions like this come from that. It's all natural.
>>3916757>I wont quote the other anon to spare him another reply in this threadToo late, my soul is already inexorably attached to this thread.When it dies, I too shall fade from this world.Anywho, it was a good discussion, I had fun, even if I didn't get a single thing done today that I wanted to.Also I'm the guy who drew that image of Ceroba and Susie you replied to me with earlier lol
>>3916759oh shit no kidding? I enjoy the art, the roba/anon one recently was really good.
>>3916758>Don't feel bad about expressing yourself, it happens. Heated discussions like this come from that. It's all natural.Oh, I don't feel bad at all, don't worry about that....Oh hey, you know what just occurred to me? I brought up Hal Jordan so much as comparison earlier in the argument, but I just realized the different lantern colors are kinda similar to the different soul types in UT.What lantern would Clover be? There isn't a "justice" lantern type as far as I'm aware, and willpower feels a little easy.
>>3916758the sagelike musings of a bird
>>3916761>oh shit no kidding?Yep, that's me.>I enjoy the art, the roba/anon one recently was really good.Thanks! I think I like that one the best out of all the ones I've done so far. My friend saw it and asked me if I was lonely though, so I dunno what to make of that.
>>3916604>>3916608I should mention there's been several images of Zenith Martlet doing that to Clover.They're all very popular, and as you've seen, the concept of what's happening within the image as becoming a point of major interest.This in my opinion is the best one, of the ones drawn so far.https://files.catbox.moe/jirp38.png
>>3916767I know, yes. I'm very aware.I made a joke at one point about Clover having to do a Meta-Flowey esque shooting minigame but with Zenith Martlet's ovaries in order to escape.I thought it was funny, most other people disagreed.
>>3916769That actually sounds hilarious, that Clover would be doing that within Zenith Martlet's womb.Though personally, considering once absorbed you can't really escape, it's more preventing yourself from fully getting absorbed.In Zenith's case, she wouldn't put Clover through the mental shit that Flowey did, she'd just talk, until Clover's pacified.Then she can go about doing what she intended, sine at the end of the day, she wants to help him, not do whatever that fuck Flowey tried to do.
>>3916771>considering once absorbed you can't really escape, it's more preventing yourself from fully getting absorbed.Eh, I feel like it might be possible for an absorbed soul to escape it's host somehow. The six human souls did a number on Flowey when they rebelled against him.Also, I'm not a woman, but I imagine taking a Kamehameha to the ovaries is probably pretty painful, so that might help Clover make their escape.See, maybe it'd be like when Goku and Vegeta went inside Buu to free everyone, Clover would just keep messing her up from the inside until they got out.
Huzzah, we are over a thousand replies and there's still a page left! What's the record for /vrpg/?
>>3916765no, I'M lonely
>>3916771I feel like she probably wouldn't be able to change him until he was willing. it would be like how when flowey tried to capture him in that sense except instead of constantly trying to damage him/traumatize him which wouldn't keep him down anyways,she'd be trying to work him through his issues until he accepted her offer to be reborn.perhaps he'd be awake all the way until that point (since someone was posing that question earlier) and once he was calmed enough to actually deal with his issues maybe it would be like sleeping during the "gestation" for a lack of better words.maybe calming him down was only the first part, and Martlet would face Clovers memories when she would sleep at night, slowly over time developing a bond with the kid as she started to sympathize with the nightmares.I'm not sure how to approach writing more of this without getting into the unbirth aspect. I've made peace with drawanons art and can appreciate it now, but I don't know if I can directly write a fetish I don't share like that.
>>3916775we're just awesome sauce like that
>>3916775I don't want to be mean but the point of a thread isn't to have a lot of replies.It's to have good conversation.Cheering about an arbitrary post count is like, faggot shit, even if this thread did have some sort of okay conversations about game stuff that's getting worked on.
>>3916779>I'm not sure how to approach writing more of this without getting into the unbirth aspect.Can't.Go big or go home pal, you want this idea you gotta look it in the eyes.
>>3916778I am going to assume you were the original requester and I am also going to use your reply to deflect the loneliness allegations my friend is throwing at me, thank you for your service.
>>3916773You have to take into account that was six human souls rebelling at the same time, after Frisk reached out to them one by one to get them to help them.As for the Meta Flowey fight showed, once Flowey took in Clover's Soul into himself Clover couldn't escape. All he could do was fight from wtihin, and prevent himself from getting fully absorbed.The fight with Flowey ends, because he realizes they'd be stuck in an endless battle. Clover is to determined to let Flowey fully absorb his soul, and thus he will literally fight him forever.You also have to remember that the battle itself happened within Flowey's mind not his actual body. It's was literal phycological battle.In Zenith's case there would be no battling, because her object is to placate Clover, not mentally rape him. It's why the anons above said she has all the time in the world to talk to Clover, because she literally does.When put into a position where you can't fight, and the person wants to help you, and willing to talk things out. It's not hard to see why she have much greater success, as she'd eventually get through to him
>>3916782How do I put this, I've gotten over my discomfort. I can face it and am interested in the concept of everything that's going on, but describing something that should be stimulating to one person, when you don't share that feeling on the matter. How do you describe the moons beauty to a blind man, except in reverse? I explore horror writing when I'm not thinking about fanfics, but I do not have Gigers touch to understand it for myself.I am down with the soul absorption and reformation ideas, but when I think of writing for this, I do not get the titillating emotions of a smut writer.we will see, I do not have any intention of writing smut, but we will see, and perhaps someone else can do that side of things justice.
>>3916779Embrace the concept of the unbirth. Remember it's how you go about writing it. It doesn't have to be a fetish thing. You just write, and enjoy the process.
>>3916785If you turn this into another whole thing I swear to fucking god.Look, Clover in this context is an angry murderous little fuck, and an angry little fuck that just got vored by a giant bird pussy, which I can't imagine has put them in a particularly good mood.That, and people who are extremely angry and violent usually don't like it when other people try to calm them down, so I imagine they'd probably be somewhat resistant to being inside Martlet at all at this rate.So basically, I don't see a reason why Clover wouldn't at least try and projectile spam Martlet's ovaries, if for not other reason than not going down without a fight, or wanting to take her with them.This is where this reply chain stops because I'm not fucking doing this again, you can't make me.
>>3916786>How do you describe the moons beauty to a blind man, except in reverse?Masturbate to it until you start being into it, then you can write it like a pro.
>>3916785>When put into a position where you can't fight, and the person wants to help you, and willing to talk things out. It's not hard to see why she have much greater success, as she'd eventually get through to himthat said, I like the idea of Martlet having to fight in some capacity against the nightmares born of Clovers memories. Is it weird to describe a fight taking place in a dream/soulscape? Nine sols got away with it so surely its fine
>>3916791>Nine sols got away with it so surely its fineSECOND NINE SOLS MENTION WOOOOOOOOO
>>3916789its also not the same anon, it's just some discussion going on. I don't have the energy in my to spiral off anymore after I got all up in my autism. I just want to enjoy the absurd discussion at this point.
>>3916793>its also not the same anonI know, I just wanna put it out there that anyone who makes me start conducting serious literary analysis like that again over this is going to be stabbed.
>>3916794it can't be stopped anon, we would be nothing if we weren't IMAGINING.
>>3916795
>>3916783that is indeed me, glad to be of service
>>3916787See I can see myself writing that she drew his soul in to slowly fuse him with her own magic, to perhaps give him a second shot at life. I can even imagine as they come closer to eachother leaning on the mother and child aspect, and even making it clear at some point that she carries him. But when it comes to actually vividly describing his soul being drawn into her vaginal canal? I feel nothing stating those words, I do not have the gift. I think I would do much better leaning on less direct imagery, speaking of how she cradled his soul within her as she tried to sooth the madness he had faced.>>3916790I do not command the dick, we exist in unity as the neurons activate. If I face this journey and the dick responds, we will ascend to that plateau. until then I address the fascination the topic brings me.
>>3916781I know, that's true.Even though they both went on too long and became autistic screeching, having two long discussions about fan interpretations and canonicity in regards to "fetish" headcanons is too funny to not point out. Most of the engagement is pretty good.>>3916785Even though Flowey does mention wanting to absorb Clover' soul, my interpretation is that he's letting out his frustration by torturing the guy he pretended to be nice to for so long. The reason he eventually stops is out of boredom.>>3916786>picIs it cropped from a source?>>3916802As for the story, you could write about the process with some vagueness. You don't have to literally describe Martlet shoving Clover into her cooch, just imply that it happened.
>>3916802>I do not command the dickNow I see...You deny your penis it's purpose!
>>3916803>Even though they both went on too long and became autistic screechingAn autistic screech-off is never too long or too short, it lasts exactly as long as it is meant to.
>>3916803>Is it cropped from a source?I believe it is, I'll look through my files and see if I saved the image I think it's from. I believe it was drawn by someone here. >just imply that it happened.I'll give that some thought. I don't want to run away from it in the sense of discarding draw anons stuff, but I just am not "feeling" that as I sit down to write. my mind is focused so much on every other aspect of the situation.>>3916805My dick and I fight as one, we want to be the one to give the bird a child, not be the child! this exchange is killing me, I can't stop laughing
>>3916779I'm sure like many anons here have expressed, outside of subduing Clover, by absorbing his soul, to where he's dormant within her, Zenith Martlet is going to try and force anything else. Getting Clover under control was the first priority above everything else, and now that she's done that she can work towards ultimately having him be reborn within her.When I think about the willing part it becomes interesting, because two parts to it. Clover being willing to forgiving himself for waht he did, and willing to accept the new chance at life that Martlet wants to give him. And since under normal circumstances he always to stay with her, I think the healing part is the biggest issue.I also think that to, Clover would be conscious throughout the entire experience, up until he accepts Martlet's help fully, at which point she would have absorbed is soul completely, and as you say would be sleeping during the gestation period, or the getting reborn process.Yeah for sure, Clover would be having a lot going on in his mind, but knowing Martlet she'd go hell and back to help him through it, and bond with him throughout the entire journey of helping him heal through all the damage he's subjected to.>>3916786How you write is it's up to you. You don't have to write it as smut, or explicit. You can write about stuff like this happening without it being smut. Regardless I'm sure you'll be fine writing the story, once you start. It'll come to you.
>>3916811>Clover being willing to forgiving himself for waht he didForgive themself!? What about the 80 people they murdered, how does that factor into this?
>>3916811I appreciate the input, I'm gonna think it over while I finish writing something else I'm working on. while there's a lot of bad parents out there, the Bond between mother and child can be something special, and the thought of a once vengeful Zartlet forming that bond over time, possibly even surprising herself, gets my noggin really joggin. I may take shots at it in between chapters of the other stuff I'm doing, as I hear that sometimes the best solution to getting stuck writing, is to just write something else.
>>3916807>My dick and I fight as one, we want to be the one to give the bird a child, not be the child!Your penis...It yearns to bathe in the cum of your lovers...but you hold it back...
>>3916817God damnit anonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhHeGZoWl0g&list=PLVfiSrGXduCAdJC4SbaMSCS7mgU_wjWOJ&index=8 does this mean Raiden fought the final battle using someone elses dick, or did the dick become his? I think this thread has permanently changed my brain chemistry
I know this isn't really an argument by this point, nor do I intend to restart it with anyone, but I think fundamentally what I find so insane about all this is that the premise is focusing on *Clover's* trauma and healing, rather than the 80 fucking people they ruthlessly murdered and those people's friend's and families. Like, the actual mark that's left on the world.I think that if you hurt someone, seriously hurt someone, especially someone who didn't deserve it, then you don't get to just forgive yourself until they've forgiven you, so to see the idea tossed around that Clover should be helped and healed and all that while just not addressing all the lives lost because of their actions is just genuinely insane to me. Like, Flowey manipulation or not, they are anything but the victim in that scenario, they aren't the one who needs the help.Like, if my friends and family got slaughtered because some kid just came through and killed them for literally no reason, I wouldn't give a shit how much time travel trauma that kid may or may not have, they're going in the fucking ground.
>>3916818I said my penis was a tool of satisfaction...Not used in horny...Not used in pleasure...But now, I'm not so sure...And besides...This isn't my penis!
>>3916820alright, my honest thoughts hereI have a lot of sympathy for the monsters in undertale and yellow, they're in a bad situation both in the underground, and just in general in the world. I don't think they deserve to die, and I like the thought of "every monster has a family, has a home they return to" like toby brought up in the anniversary stream.That said, while it's been shown that battles can be ended nonviolently like Martlet ending her battle by either running away or just calling the fight depending on the route, every monster without fail will choose to engage in a fight to the death with you. I've always like the interpretation that not all monsters know you're a human, which gives them some leniency here, but when you start chunking their hp, or killing the person next to them, why do they keep fighting you to the bitter end? It can't be because clover is chasing them keeping them from running, because while he points his gun at every other monster, those like Mo, he doesn't hurt and lets them get away, and Martlet as mentioned he lets her run away. I feel like a lot of monsters recognize that you're a kid but we could put that aside. you could say they have no duty to retreat, and as a Texan I respect that, but even in this state when you choose to not retreat we understand you're taking your life into your own hands when you do that.the fights are generally also no in the monsters actual homes, and just in the "city" they live in so to speak, and so no retreat type of laws often would fall apart there since the monsters are universally the aggressors starting the fights as the "enemy approaching" comes to mind. you can also give every single monster (except Martlet? I can't remember) the first turn without attacking you, and universally they will attack. you can then shoot them but they will refuse to retreat of their own accord unless you specifically grant them mercy
>>3916827I know the song changes to "enemy retreating" when you kill enough of them but my question stands, why don't they actually retreat in battle? there's no timer to kill them before they retreat. Again I know there's the whole "magical communication" thing but when you've shot a hole in their chest and they have a fraction of their hp remaining, why are they so stubborn to fight you to the death?some people say this completely justifies the vengeance route but I'm not in that group. It just makes me ask the question, wouldn't most of them be alive if they just did what martlet did? It's not their duty to retreat, or is it since most fights are initiated by the monsters?If I was family to one of those monsters I would hate clover forever no matter what was done, so I can only say this as someone who was not in fact family to them. If someone killed my brother and it was all my brothers fault it happened? I'd still be out for blood, but an impartial observer may have room to say "why did he start that fight?"there are probably some things I'm forgetting, and I don't think this justifies vengeance clovers actions, but I do think it about it when this topic comes up. Why does every monster make this a fight to the death when Martlet shows fights can be ended peacefully.
>>3916813I think the idea is that once Clover's in a calmer state of mind. You know, not being fuelled by vengeance and hatred and all that. He'd feel guilty about all the people he killed, and likely wouldn't think he'd deserved a happy life after what he did. Which makes sense.
>>3916828and you could say some of them were caught off guard and panicked and just attacked out of fear, but all 80 of them? not a single one of them did a "woah man chill I don't want that kind of heat" and ran away?>>3916829also I agree with this, I think keeping Clover moving even after he was reborn would be a challenge for Martlet. I think dealing with the guilt or consequences of that in some way would be important. My view on the absoption redemption arc includes that those monsters deserve justice too. Martlet being the one to ultimately make the call to give him mercy doesn't erase that. It would probably be one of the later arcs in such a story as getting clover to even cooperate I think would be a herculean task
>>3916827I'm not really arguing from a legal standpoint here, since I think the law and morality usually don't line up, and also the monster kingdom probably doesn't have the same sorts of laws we do on these sorts of things, but basically there's always been something of a disconnect between what the game says is happening in-universe versus what the game actively depicts happening by it's nature as a video game. For instance, some monsters will have text in battles saying they "lost the will to fight", but they'll still have attack turns past that point if you let them, it doesn't actually mean they won't fight you anymore, just that you can spare them.And while monsters don't seem to ever retreat, they do explicitly need to be hunted down, since the amount of monsters you'll encounter in an area while just passing through is almost always less than the amount you need to kill in order to fulfill the requirements of the genocide route, so to that end I think the idea that Clover is explicitly hunting monsters down in order to kill them holds water. This is something Deltarune would end up doing better than Undertale, with enemies actually being present on the overworld as you walk around, especially when they start to run away from you during the snowgrave route.
>>3916803>>3916807This is the Zenith Martlet image uncroppedhttps://files.catbox.moe/u80ko2.png
>>3916829Well again, there's my problem, I don't give a damn how the murderer with 80 kills under their belt feels, I'm more concerned with the people they killed and the people whose lives have been affected by all this.It's like those joke people make about american military movies "look how sad killing you made us", except literally just that.
>>3916807>picWouldn't Martlet sleep in a bed shaped like a nest? It could be made of wicker and shaped like a bowl, with bedding on the inside.>>3916827In UTY damaging monsters a certain amount will let you spare them. Sparing is telling them you won't fight them. It's not "to the death" unless if you make it so.That said, some monsters actively stop fights on their own volition, like Martlet when you first encounter her. Why ordinary monsters don't do this, I can't explain from within the universe. Maybe they're stupid, idk. It can be explained as a way to streamline programming and gameplay.>>3916832Anon delivers! Vielen Dank.
>>3916807I like how squishy her face looks here, very nice.
>>3916834>Wouldn't Martlet sleep in a bed shaped like a nest? It could be made of wicker and shaped like a bowl, with bedding on the inside.NJB, but I imagine being anthropomorphic and sleeping in a nest wouldn't feel great on the spine unless you were laying in it like you would a bed anyway.Even for animalistic monsters, there's usually a point where the animal behaviors end and the humanoid behaviors begin.
>>3916831>I'm not really arguing from a legal standpoint here, since I think the law and morality usually don't line up, and also the monster kingdom probably doesn't have the same sorts of laws we do on these sorts of thingsand sorry, I don't want to come across as throwing legal solutions at things. its more about as a texan where many people do indeed carry guns (though not quite as many as i'm sure clover would expect), there's a mindset that comes into play.>so to that end I think the idea that Clover is explicitly hunting monsters down in order to kill them holds water. I agree, but for some reason I have a feeling its a little of both. Clovers actively hunting them down, but they're also approaching him. And its the same in undertale proper, where we don't have a shift in music to "enemy retreating". I think it's an important question to ask "why do monsters never try to de-escalate things". Even if they have dialogue that says "woah no need to be crass" (first dialogue I pulled up in a genocide route video) they still keep attacking which would be escalating the situation, which again they have the right to do since they are being attacked, but in a game where a monster does actively end the battle herself without a yellow name being required, why are monsters so adamant on fighting until you finally tell them "ok I grant you mercy"?>>3916834>It's not "to the death" unless if you make it so.but that's what I'm saying, unless YOU spare them, a monster other than martlet will never end the fight on their own. again, I'm not saying they deserve to die, but living where I do, there's an unspoken feeling of "you took your own life into your hands" if you die in a fight you started. Texas is actually pretty lame on the whole, but ask anyone other than the dead fellows friends and family and that's what you'll run into. I think it's still important for clover to face that guilt and reckoning, but it makes it a bit "different"
>>3916834I like the idea of Martlet having a nest, and plan on making the bed she takes an unconscious (pacifist route) clover to a nest if I can ever stop discussing the games and continue writing about them>>3916835I love the way that artist draws Martlet there's a nude version as well >>3916832Amazing stuff, I can't help but still used the cropped one as a reaction but thats a fantastic Martlet as well.
>>3916839>there's an unspoken feeling of "you took your own life into your hands" if you die in a fight you started.Yes, but to that end I feel like you could argue that this applies more to Clover themself than any of the monsters, since they explicitly chose to travel up to Mt.Ebott and throw themself into the underground on a mission to collect the bounty for the five previous fallen humans, so strictly speaking you could say they're the instigator in all this, throwing themself into hostile territory and all.
>>3916837I'm picturing a large nest big enough to essentially hold proper bedding in it and be slept in like a normal fucking person.I still like Martlet eating like a bird.
>>3916842Oh, okay.Still, I imagine maintaining a nest made of twigs would get tiresome and impractical, and also very messy for the inside of a house, so I could see those being reasons why any given bird monster may opt for a normal bed.
>>3916841they're a kid, and It applies to both in a sense here. Clover threw himself to the wolves, but after the first 40 wolves died and 40 more kept coming, There's a certain "what didja think was gonna happen stupid, think you were the special wolf better than the others?"Like I said, not that they deserve to die but kind of a "good job dumbass"
>>3916845I can respect that, I still think martlet MAY have a nest bed what with the birdbrain. maybe she even finds herself tending to it without thinking and realizing how much time she's wasting.
>>3916847>they're a kidGRAAAAH I HATE CHILDRENAnyway, UT is a fantasy world, kids make grown up decisions all the time in fantasy worlds, so if Clover's decisions were to throw themself into a cavern filled with monsters and start ethnically cleansing the place then they alone bear the responsibility for those decisions.
>>3916852they alone bear the responsibility for those decisions.I only have issue with the >alonepart. again, lots of those monsters made some extremely questionable choices and would be alive today if they didn't thing they were just built different from the last 72 wolves. The child thing applies much more if clover wasn't committing genocide, but its still relevant to the topic that regardless of it you plan to do a genocide route or not, when you encounter your first monster, if you don't attack it first, it will still keep going until you die, if you attack it, it will then be willing to give up but ONLY if you say "I spare you idiot". It gives me the impression that "the monsters didn't deserve to get slaughtered, but they aren't exactly innocent angels, are they.
>>3916837>NJB, but I imagine being anthropomorphic and sleeping in a nest wouldn't feel great on the spine unless you were laying in it like you would a bed anyway.I was thinking a fetal position would work.>Even for animalistic monsters, there's usually a point where the animal behaviors end and the humanoid behaviors begin.That comes down to personal preference. I like it when they behave mostly like humans but have quirks associated with their species. For example, ponies in MLP wear saddles as fashion accessories. The thought was inspired by DRY1 having a much smaller nest on her favorite chair. And properly made, a large nest would be pretty comfy.>>3916852Oh not this again
>>3916851>you get invited over to Martlet's house for some "special time">she leads you to her bedroom>let'sgetiton.wav>her bed is a large pile of sharp twigs arranged in a rough bowl shape>the door is already locked>uh oh
>>3916833In the same way your thinking about the monsters family's, what about the fallen human children. Five human child ended up in the Underground, and they all died. Killed. And the majority of Monsterkind where totally fine with that. Even celebrating.Even Integrity, the human depicted as being the most violent, by Dalvs's own admission, went on a killing because he attacked her first.Monsters aren't really blameless in this situation, when it's already made apparent it's not a safe place for a human child to be.Sure Clover can go the pacifist route, but it doesn't change the fact, if it wasn't for saving and loading, any one of those monster he encountered, intentionally or otherwise could kill him and that would be that. He'd be dead. No second chances. Just like that.I get that monsterkind are in a fucked up situation and have families, but their not really innocent either, when they've made an environment that's naturally dangerous to humans. The kids are innocent sure, by the adult monsters know damn well what they're doing, and what's likely to a happen to human child to shows up in the Underground.As another anon pointed out monsters like Martlet have proven they can end a fight peacefully with Clover having to spare them, so why is it that most don't do that, and essentially put Clover in a life or death situation during every encounter.
>>3916856I ain't no coward. I dive in.ah shit wait Martlet would end up feeling really shitty if/when I got hurt.
>>3916845>>3916851>>3916856it could be a nest thats made of a less messy material.for example,>metal frame base (like a regular bed frame, but more nest shaped)>meant to act as a support for dozens of blankets and pillows>end product is effectively just a nest made out of a ton blankets, pillows, and various bedsheets.
>>3916859I like it, but its still funny thinking of getting skewered by branches in the name of bedding the bird.
>>3916857>what about the fallen human children. Five human child ended up in the Underground, and they all died.Five kids, versus at least 80 monsters.I don't think this ratio is balanced.Look, I think the bottom line is that if these kids kept lining up to go jump in a mountain that's said to have a 100% lethality rate, monsters or not, that shit's just natural selection at that point, they got what was coming to them.Aside from that, if humanity didn't want any humans to be killed then they shouldn't have locked all the monsters underground with the spell that can only be broken by killing humans, come on now.
>>3916861>they got what was coming to them.this isn't a healthy way to think of children anon. Are you Asgore by any chance? where's that image of Asgore with like 200 souls
>>3916859>it could be a nest thats made of a less messy material.Wrong, her nest is this.
>>3916863nah, thats the next of a depressed crow monster.
I'm watching through some of the Genocide route, and its interesting that this monster is out in the open around clover but is completely safe not engaging him in a fight. Maybe some of those 80 monsters were natural selection as well>>3916863Would Martlet Know what cigarettes are? Do monsters know?
>>3916862>this isn't a healthy way to think of children anon.If I had the chance to throw myself into the underground when I was a kid I 100% would've done it and I 100% would've deserved whatever the fuck happened to me, absolutely, no ifs and/or buts.
>>3916865whoops forgot my image
>>3916864Alright fine, how's this?
>>3916859>metalHeresy, Martlet uses only woody materials.>>3916863Chain smoker Martlet>>3916865Oh she'll know after she starts working in retail.
>>3916867he also doesn't fuck with the mail whale, not even drawing a gun on it, unless he does later in the route
>>3916870Also worth considering. Flowey could just be full of shit of course, but on an aborted genocide he talks about being relieved clover stopped. I think Jaundice Clover freaks him out a little or something?again, could be bullshit, but its worth noting.
>>3916866Anon those are concerning words. Children are supposed to be protected, learn and grow up happy, and while I know many of us were failed on that front, that doesn't mean its not supposed to happen. Dina actually refusing to give clover alcohol because he's a kid still stands out in my mind.
>>3916874>Dina actually refusing to give clover alcohol because he's a kid still stands out in my mind.Doesn't stop them from finding a full 40 oz someone tossed in the trash in New Home, you can't stop destiny.
>>3916875But of course, a cowboy makes do
>>3916874>Children are supposed to be protected, learn and grow up happy, and while I know many of us were failed on that front, that doesn't mean its not supposed to happen.See I get that, but if a kid goes so far out of their way to put themself in danger knowingly, you can really only blame so many things before you just gotta blame the kid themself.I say that as someone who was a kid who did stupid shit, all the time, without provocation, but was simultaneously identified by my school as being significantly above state average for intelligence.Stupidity finds a way.Also, aside from that, are you telling me you *wouldn't* throw yourself into the underground if you had the chance when you were a kid? Because like, come on, how could you resist that?
>>3916867>>3916870Ice Wolf/Mail Whale disappear if you cleared out the area first. It ain't that deep, unfortunately.
>>3916878>it aint that deepyou never kill ice wolf in a battle, so they evacuate. the point being Clover isn't just killing every person, there's an element of the monsters attacking clover, then getting got.
>>3916874>imageMan, what is it with UTY fanartists and turning characters into horses?I've only seen it happen like twice, but still, that feels like a lot.
>>3916880I've seen it twice in this fandom alone. Its an odd phenomenon because i know it happens with other games.
>>3916881Oh, that wasn't even the other image I was talking about.I don't have it on me but I'm sure you know the one.
>>3916882I'm not sure off hand because I just remembered a zelda one as well. Its something for sure.
>>3916879Well, it probably comes down to the game mechanic of not being able to kill NPCs. Undertale has the player being unable to kill shopkeepers despite having no reason not to otherwise.
>>3916883The "horse cursed for being retarded" one where Starlo rides horse Ceroba while a single tear runs down her face.
>>3916884I'm not sure, those npcs are present while clover has his eyes not showing and the music is shifted. I think it's to show something about Clover not attacking people who dont engage with him (I think this changes by the time he's killed axis)
>>3916885oh fuck I think I have seen that one.
>>3916887I simultaneously want to know if that was a fetish image or something and want to forget that image exists.
>>3916887I feel like that one has to be a joke where the zelda ones are clearly into the fetish territory
>>3916889What are the zelda ones?
>>3916890just breath of the wild zelda drawn as a horse but it has an art style that you know "this isn't because you found it funny, is it"
>>3916886Ehh not really? It just means you're on the genocide route but you haven't cleared the area yet.I think it makes sense during Snowdin, the monsters haven't evacuated yet because the Dark Ruins are disconnected from the rest so they wouldn't have known what you did. Flowey even brings this up at the beginning of the area.
>>3916891I tried to find what you were talking about by searching on esix and I have never regretted a decision faster in my life.
speaking of martlet and clover, I was digging through art from before I gave the game a shot. sometimes I can't help but wonder what the fuck some of the AUs people came up with were about.
>>3916893I'm sure there are nsfw versions so I can't imagine having braved that like you, I just know of it from people posting on /v/ for shock value.
>>3916889>ceroba works b booththe sacrifices she makes for her beautiful family...
>>3916895Oh, I didn't even find them, I saw worse things.
>>3916885I got you, this is still one of my favorite UTY images
>>3916898yeah looking at this, I can't help but think it was just supposed to be funny.
>>3916898Yes, thank you, I really wanted to see it again after all this time.Of course.
>>3916898heh
I took a little more of a look at the genocide route, this is after you reach the kill count for the area for "but nobody came", the player checked the room right before the count and the dialouge changes after clover hits the count as well as the wife npc vanishing. So this is at max kills for the area but Clover doesn't attack this monster or the ones still in the honedew. Oddly Martlet is the first person Clover attacks that didn't engage with him.
>>3916910I remember when I did the genocide route shortly after I beat pacifist.I had very little problems killing like 99% of the characters, but I was damn near heartbroken when I killed El Bailador.That was the one kill that got to me, he didn't deserve that.
>>3916912I think El bailador would have been liked more if his fight was put together a little better. He seems to get a lot of "unwarranted" hate. I never see fan art of him. conceptually he's great but again I think people get burned on how his rhythm game feels so off with the music starting over and over again.
>>3916914I liked him.Enough for him to be the only kill that hurt.
>>3916919I was saying that in distant hopes that I may see art of him for the first time. I don't see characters like axis drawn too much sure, I haven't found a scrap of him
>>3916920There are eight results for him on esix.Three of them are explicit.Is this what you asked for?
>>3916921I was aiming to bait someone into posting an image they may have had of him to prove me wrong but I suppose with numbers like that there really are almost none.
>>3916868I need a mart edit of this if any artfags are free
>>3916914I like his design and his personality but I do not like rhythm games, thankfully I killed everyone in the dunes before reaching him i've been wondering if there's people who ship themselves with him I feel like that's a missed opportunity
>>3916830I think the biggest hurdle for Martlet would be to get Clover to accept being reborn, so he can live a better life. Not because she wouldn't get through him. I believe she'd get to the point when they can converse comfortably. It's more Clover's feelings in accepting that he does deserve to live a better life that's not fueled by violence. I think once it's got to the point where he willing accepts to be reborn, and is reborn, it's a matter of adjusting to a new norm, while Martlet's ensuring he's not stuck in the past, while making great efforts to have Clover live the life he was robbed of. It would be quite the task overall, but those kinds of journeys are never quick and easy.>>3916802Like some other anons have pointed, you can write in ways to where you can elude to, or heavily imply what Zenith Martlet did, without explicitly stating what she did. With some clever wordplay, you can paint a clear picture of what happened, while being vague or suggestive.
>>3916925I feel like any potential with him and any character is killed by how many people seem to dislike his fight, its a shame really. Before I felt confident enough to publish a fic, I remember doing a little dadjin thing and El bailador was Clovers music teacher. I'm now committed to working El Bailador into the next fic I do.
>>3916928>it's a matter of adjusting to a new normI think there would be periods Martlet would have to watch out for. I don't think it would go into some edge fest like "clover kills himself over the guilt!" But I do think that it's something that Martlet would need to be vigilant as even after dealing with things in Clovers soul/dreams/memories, he'd have a tough time facing it.
>>3916830>My view on the absoption redemption arc includes that those monsters deserve justice too.I've gotta ask, but how?The monsters themselves are all dead, and while they may have some surviving friends and family members, how can they possibly be given justice?And how the hell are they meant to react to the person responsible for their loved one's death and suffering still being alive?How do they respond to "btw remember that person who killed 80 people including your friends and family? well i defeated them in a fight and instead of just taking their soul and giving it to Asgore so we can get closer to being free, i absorbed it so they could be reborn and now they're super sorry about all the people they killed :(", like, how the fuck could anyone possibly take that well?We know from some of the original UT neutral endings that monsters are just as capable of holding a grudge as they are of being nice, to the point that they're willing to usurp Toriel when she tries to take control and suggest that humans should be treated as friends, so I really don't see how any monsters that would potentially learn about Clover being reborn wouldn't just immediately try and kill them for what they did.The only way around that would be to just hide the truth of what happened from the underground at large, but that means they'd never even know what really happened to Clover, and they'd never get any kind of closure on the situation in general, and how can they possibly receive any kind of justice in that scenario?
>>3916928>With some clever wordplay, you can paint a clear picture of what happened, while being vague or suggestive.I'll take a shot at just throwing some words at the paper, maybe try going about it both ways and seeing how I feel about it. Maybe I'm overthinking it afterall and it will make sense when I'm actually trying to put it into place
>>3916934Thats a good question and being completely honest, I don't know. I don't know that you can actually grant justice to both sides in this, but I think it would need to be addressed in some way. I know that's probably a bit of a half assed sounding answer, but I feel like the monsters that died deserve justice, and Clover who was in this supernatural hellish situation deserves justice. maybe that can't be resolved, or maybe the fact that it can't be resolved is part of the arc, with clover needing to face that.How would it go in a normal aborted genocide neutral route if flowey didn't get involved?
>>3916948>I feel like the monsters that died deserve justice, and Clover who was in this supernatural hellish situation deserves justice.As unsurprising as I'm sure this answer is coming from me, I genuinely feel as though the only possible "justice" in this scenario is Clover's death.Like, that's it, just death. They killed 80 people. Trauma and manipulation or not, those deaths are their direct responsibility, and if the timeline is never reset, that sticks. Those people will never be brought back, all those lives torn apart stay torn apart. The damage is done, forever. There is no way back to being good after that, nothing they do will ever make them good again, they're done. The only thing they could do that could even tangentially make things "right", as "right" as the situation could even possibly be at this point, is giving up their soul for their crimes so that monsterkind can at least benefit from their presence in the underground in some way, and get a bit closer to freedom.I made the Hal Jordan comparison a lot during the argument earlier in the thread, but if I'm being honest, there was a major flaw with that comparison, and it's that for all the evil he committed while wearing the yellow ring, Hal Jordan could at least work to make things better after the fact. Hal could at least go back to saving people and doing good like he did before, and while he'd never be the hero was before he did what he did, dedicating his life to doing good from there on out is at least something, it's better for everyone than just having him rot in a cell for the rest of his life.Clover? What the hell can they do? What, they're gonna do community service the rest of their life to make up for slaughtering 80 people? Yeah, I'm sure that'll fill the void they left with all the people whose lives they tore apart, they'll just be a really good neighbor from now on, sure.Honestly, death wouldn't really be enough. If there's a hell in the UT universe, Clover's headed there.
>>3916948>How would it go in a normal aborted genocide neutral route if flowey didn't get involved?Well, they'd still be human, so that's something. They'd have to live in hiding for the rest of their life, unless they wanna get crucified by all the pissed off monsters that'd be gunning for them.I don't know what kind of life they'd be able to live at that point, unless they just stay in Martlet's house forever until they die, one way or another.If they really feel guilty about what they did, maybe they'd just decide to go out and face the music at some point, but other than that, it would likely just be a very isolated and uneventful life.Definitely a very quiet one.
>600 posts past bump limit because of two anons
>>3916961And?Thread's still got some life left in it, let's get our money's worth here.
>>3916963I just wanted to post Dr. Seuss where I found it topical, by all means continue
>>3916964I never read this one, but I'm assuming it's about two jackasses arguing with each other forever or something.
>>3916965Here's the full original poem. The short story version is mostly the same but it ends with the overpass page I posted instead.
>>3916967Fair.
>>3916865>Would Martlet Know what cigarettes are? Do monsters know?There is a monster smoking in the Snowdin librarby
>>3916984Do monster not consider it rude to smoke indoors?
>>3916865Why not play uty's geno route yourself? It's a far more engaging experience to play a game yourself than to watch it, and that's considering the fact i tend to watch videogame playthroughs over personally playing them
>>3916990smoking indoors used to be commonplace in the real world until people started learning about the health ramifications.given that monsters world completely differently, they likely dont suffer lung cancer from smoking, other things, or even addiction.
>>3916992Maybe, but I feel like it might cause problems for some kinds of monsters.That and smoke just tends to smell bad.Actually, what is it they're smoking anyway?The underground doesn't seem to have too much agricultural infrastructure, so I doubt it's just tobacco, maybe it's some kind of magic plant unique to the underground.
>>3916898Oh hey it’s the same Starlofag anon from 2 years ago that drew him lactating from his head
what the fuck happened to this thread yesterday
>>3916991I'm waiting on Shades of justice before I give the game an actual play through and just wanted to confirm a few things about how clover proceeds through the underground. I didn't watch anything past the honeydew
>>3917104Autism, I apologize.At least it was after bump limit and not inside of THREAD.
Since UTY existed before deltarune did, how were they planning on making the ending before they got the idea to have clover rip out his soul like kris? Did clover originally shoot his own brains out ronnie mcnutt-style or what?
>>3917158well, there's the cut ending with Martlet being dragged out of the throne room
>>3917159Somebody should ask the devs about it then
>>3917158>Over The Horizon - Undertale Yellow OST
>>3917162I'd be surprised if clover taking his soul out was changed because of deltarune. there were already tons of fanfics of frisk drawing his soul out and handing them to asgore and stuff like that, which I think was the basis for the absurd ending in the first place.
>>3917167This. I don't like the whole "pull your literal SOUL out whenever you want" fanon that exists in Undertale now. First is because humans are physical, and not magical creatures, and having them be grounded to a realistic standard (other than possessing physical SOULs and LOVE) makes the setting more relatable. Shoving your hand in your chest somehow to pull out not an organ but an ethereal entity is too fantastical to be believed. Second is that it trivializes the concept of death and the whole concept that your SOUL is the culmination of your very being. It lacks the dramatic finality of dying since you could just shove it right back in, like a battery into a toy, and the SOUL becomes something that you can separate from yourself without damaging the rest of you, if that makes sense.I don't know why Yellow insisted on making Clover's death G-rated, considering in the same game Flowey graphically murders Martlet, and then Clover. It would have been far better to have had the ending cutscene be Clover led to a scaffold this reminded me of The Song at the Scaffold, which I read as a kid or about to be stabbed by a visibly distraught Asgore before a cut to black. It would help to cement just how unjust this whole situation is.>inb4 do you object to this in DeltaruneNo because it's actually done well. It's kept mysterious but it's implied that Kris did some occultic ritual or Faustian bargain to swap his SOUL out and it has had consequences, even if he's not a flesh automaton animated by neurotransmitters. It's also in a very grounded world where monsters are human stand-ins rather than a magical alternative world, so Kris and the SOUL are the weird ones. Deltarune also treats the concept of death very seriously despite nobody having died yet.
>>3917252>>3917167Agreed that its just fandom brainrot like every DR fangame having to include Gaster, FRIEND, Spamton/Ralsei clones and the whole shitUnfortunately people are stupid and won't read between the lines, thus will assume every human can just pull out their SOUL instead of it just being a Kris thing due to reasons we still don't know
>>3917288I refuse to call him by his real name and just refer to it as "spamton cat" or "that fuckass spamton cat"that being said I love images of it and ERAM interacting
>>3917288>>3917252I mean the bigger issue is him giving up his soul in that manner at all which again I think is based on those old fanfictions. Him pulling out his soul itself is odd, but not really the end of the world here. Maybe having their soul drawn out in battles repeatedly taught them how to do it or something I don't know. The point I was making is that it's been a thing in fanfictions even as far back as Dreemur reborn where frisk literally pulls his soul out and shoves it in asriel. Deltarune probably had nothing to do with them deciding to have clover pull out his soul.
>>3916994its probably just a performative conjured item because the monster read/watched a book/movie that came down from the surface and liked the idea.like how kids pretend to do things their parents do, the monster ultimately has no idea about the action's greater purpose. the monster just wants to do it.
>>3917104Two anons with very strong and exactly inverse senses of justice got into a standoff.
>>3917327A mexican standoff, if you will.
>>3917327>>3917336>Pacifist Clover and Genocide Clover facing each each other atop of the UG Appartments block
>>3917327I can live with this interpretation of events.
>>3917341Eh, the other guy might fit the bill for pacifist Clover, but I was only arguing that Clover in this context would deserve death specifically because of what they did, so I'm not a good fit for this metaphor.
>>3917347sorry anon, I've already imagined myself as the Clover and you as the Clover. Its all Clover
>>3917349I guess that makes me neutral then.Not in the sense that I have no strong feelings one way or the other, but that I have very strong feelings on the middleground.
>>3917352Only the fearless may proceedBraves ones, foolish ones.Both walk not the middle road. It's never been more Clover than this
>>3917355Actually, you know what, fuck it, that makes me flawed pacifist instead.I'm only arguing for the death of a single person, that counts.
>>3917357Two Clovers stand at worlds end or something.I want an "its Clover" image now after this silliness.
>>3917358>I want an "its Clover" image now after this silliness.What, like the Joe Biden meme image? I think I've already seen something like that, but I wouldn't know where to find it.
>>3917366yeah along those lines. it feels like a given joke to make so I'm surprised I haven't spotted one already.
>>3917358>>3917366>>3917367there are a few of these
>>3917382perfect, thank you anon.
>>3915912Now I gotta write something for this creature
>>3916994Maybe its just rolled up paper, and they're doing it for the aesthetic.
>>3917422Maybe its actually a form of candy like a lollipop but meant for fire monsters, other monsters consume it too but only for the aesthetic
Anon x Martlet writer here to give an updateI've written over 1500 words today but I'm still in their first encounter I neglected a few days of writing, yes I know I need to walk the talk when it comes to consistency. A friend of mine said that 500-800 words per day is a good benchmark for a beginner so I'm proud of that fact and I'll try to get the story out as quickly as possible. I said initially it was going to be a short story but the length will be closer to that of a novelette. It will consist of several meetings between Martlet and Anon as they grow closer and will be very dialogue-heavy before we get to the juicy bits. My question to anons here is, what would be some good conversation topics you would like them to have? I'll try to cover all the obvious ones but I don't know if the inspiration for dialogue will keep flowing enough to have consistent length among "chapters." Relevant context is that it's in DRY1's setting a short time after the events of the game and assumes Martlet keeps custody of Cole. Dark worlds and cataclysm-related stuff will be glossed over for the sake of simplicity and to keep the story light-hearted. Since it's so short, when it's done and proofread I'll upload the whole thing at once instead of serializing.
>>3917479pace yourself, there's no rush
>>3917479the important thing is that you enjoy it as the pacing goes. I've gotten distracted on writing what I'm working on constantly the last 2 weeks but when I have made time for it I'm having a great time.as for topics, I know you said the obvious but anon learning about her, her hobbies and values in natural ways would be nice. Maybe some variation of talking about what she likes doing, her not having an answer at first since she works so much, and getting the answer out of her? one of those earlier breaking the water type of conversations I guess?maybe a later conversation showing anon asking martlet follow up questions from past conversations casually, a small thing that shows her he's been listening.All I have for pre-cooked conversation topics are the kind of things I'd ask in sales to keep the customer entertained during waiting periods, so it's kind of lame but just stuff like "where would you travel if you could" or something like that.
>>3917426I kind of like that, and honestly I could see monsters having candy cigarettes underground before having real ones.
>decide to check r*ddit to see new content>see a comic on an absurd part number>click>its something with frisk being hyper schizophrenic and having a lot of ghosts accompanying himthe consequences of red and yellow have been a disaster for the UTY community
>>3917509I do my best to not actually take in anything I spot on those sprite comics when I go checking for art, I get that fanfiction takes liberties to put it lightly, but it's all incomprehensible and I genuinely dislike the red and yellow designs for the character portraits.
>>3917509Why are Chujin and Rudy not on the same plane?Who the hell is that fox on the left?Why the fuck are there so many ghosts around Frisk?
>>3917515>Why are Chujin and Rudy not on the same plane?It was overbooked>Who the hell is that fox on the left?Shu's dead backstory brother>Why the fuck are there so many ghosts around Frisk?Why wouldn't there be?
>>3916934Someone else already pointed this out here, but the whole situation with the human children in the Underground is a pretty messed up situation in general. Made worse by the fact that most monsters don't see or consider the problem that somehow it's okay for a human child to die in the underground for their freedom, but should that child kill someone in the underground due to self defence, or retribution for what they did to a previous human child, the fault is all on the human.When a human child shows up in the Underground, they're pretty much screwed unfairly. Their choices are they either die, constantly have to be on the run because the whole Underground is hunting them down, fight for their life where they die by a monster or kill them, or try to do things peacefully but risk getting killed at any time. There's no winning. And Clover's situation is even more messed up because of everything that Flowey's done to them.Monsters can have families, but these families are all compliant about a human child dying in the Underground, a place that's naturally hostile towards them, and a risk to their lives even if they haven't done anything to warrant any hostility. As well as supporting the Royal Guard, you know the group of monsters specifically designed to hunt down and kill humans. You're saying monsters can hold a grudge and all that, but how to think humans would react to what Asgore and monsterkind did. "Oh hey, we created an environment that hunts down and kills human children for years, but now that we're free we're sorry about that." They'd be pissed to.It makes sense Martlet is the only monster in a position to judge Clover, because she's the only one who acknowledges things from both sides, and the circumstances that lead him to do what he did. She's not okay with what he did, but she understands why he's doing it, and ultimately wants to help him, because she's right, a child like that shouldn't be living a life fueled by violence and hatred
>>3917556>but how to think humans would react to what Asgore and monsterkind did. "Oh hey, we created an environment that hunts down and kills human children for years, but now that we're free we're sorry about that."The monsters didn't create that environment, humanity did. They did it by locking them in a prison that they could only escape with the power of seven human souls.I know I made a joke about it earlier, but what the hell did they expect? You can't lock someone in a cage for the rest of their life and be surprised at what they'd do to get out, you aren't above them.>because she's right, a child like that shouldn't be living a life fueled by violence and hatredIndeed, a child shouldn't have to engage with such things, but this situation isn't about what ought to be, it's about what is, and what is is that an extremely ideologically driven child willingly threw themself into territory occupied by desperate people locked away for the result of a war only a handful of them were even alive to participate in, locked behind a door that requires dead humans to open.Why they made that choice is besides the point, it's the choice they made, knowingly, and the same goes for how they acted from then on.Being traumatized and manipulated is one thing, but how you act on that is still your responsibility.No excuses.
Scrolled down to see this whole discussion so I'll add my two cents.>>3916934Call me old fashioned, but when monsterkind were completely okay with human children dying and even encouraging and supporting the monsters going out of there way to hunt down and kill them, they lost the innocence card, as well as any right to judge a human child should they decide to retaliate upon learning that fact. I acknowledge there are an incredibly small handful of monsters that are outliers, but when the larger majority are unable to see or accept both sides of the issue, they have no right in trying to claim the moral high ground.>>3917559Humans and Monsters were at war, they got sealed into the Underground, and from what was said, monsterkind were able to manage, and move on from that, because going to war again wasn't worth it. Then a human child fell down, was adopted by the royal family, and accepted by monsterkind. Then the adopted child and the actual child got killed, and despite Toriel's protests to not go to war again, Asgore did just that and decided okay, every human child that falls into the Underground is going to be hunted down, killed and their souls will be harvested until we get seven to break the barrier, even though I could've passed the barrier at any time, after acquiring one soul, and gotten the remaining six out there. No I'm just going to wait for human children to fall down and and have my subjects kill them.Asgore set the stage, then the rest of monsterkind walked onto it and ensured the play kept going, because they were all for it. Toriel saw how bullshit the whole thing was, which is why she exiled herself, and tried to prevent the fallen children from getting killed, by keeping them safe in her home.If the queen of the monsters can see how wrong the whole situation is, to where she's actively trying to prevent human child from getting killed. Then monsterkind don't have any right in saying what they're doing is acceptable.
>>3917584>but when monsterkind were completely okay with human children dying and even encouraging and supporting the monsters going out of there way to hunt down and kill themThe needs of the many outweigh the few.If seven casualties is all it takes to earn the freedom of an entire race, the math is simple. That those seven casualties were all children is regrettable, and also extremely odd, but the fact remains that they were necessary deaths.>Then the adopted child and the actual child got killedNo, the adopted human child *got* the actual child killed in a fanatical suicide pact which put the monster king onto this path in the first place.>could've passed the barrier at any time, after acquiring one soulIf Asriel was still easily killed after having a single human soul, it's not out of the question that a single soul just might not be the insurance you think it is. Waiting to have all the necessary souls was more time consuming, but a safer bet in the long run.>tried to prevent the fallen children from getting killed, by keeping them safe in her home.If Toriel was serious about protecting the fallen children, she would've escorted the first one (after Chara) through the underground, when she was still respected as the de facto monarch of the kingdom, and made Asgore stand down herself.Instead she was more than fine to let each one walk through the door in front of her and die. If you condemn all of monsterkind, you have to condemn her too.>Then monsterkind don't have any right in saying what they're doing is acceptable.So what, they're just supposed to accept eternal imprisonment because their captors set them up with a lock that can only be broken through bloodshed? What happens when the underground runs out of resources? What happens if part of the cavern collapses? What happens when someone in the underground starts killing people at random for their own purposes, like a certain flower for instance? They just have to lay down and accept all that?
>>3917589>If Asriel was still easily killed after having a single human soul, it's not out of the question that a single soul just might not be the insurance you think it is.By Asriels own admission, when the humans attacked him he could have easily erased them with the power he and Chara had. Chara was literally trying to do that. >No, the adopted human child *got* the actual child killed in a fanatical suicide pact which put the monster king onto this path in the first place.Asriel admits in his own words, that it was because of him that they died. When they were attacked, Chara was going to fight back, but Asriel resisted resulting in them getting killed.>So what, they're just supposed to accept eternal imprisonment because their captors set them up with a lock that can only be broken through bloodshed? This comes back to the point several anons here have pointed out, in that the whole situation is messy. Yeah it's unfortunate that the monsters have been trapped in the underground, but that doesn't that give them the right to go hunting and killing human children. Nor does that give them the right to be upset if a human child retaliated upon learning of this, or a monster getting killed by a human intentionally or otherwise, when they've basically made it so that the entire Underground itself is potential threat to their lives.In a sense, I can understand the justification being made for Clover in the discussion above. A monster can't go up to him saying things like "you killed my family or friends," yet in the same sentence are saying things like, "can you let yourself get killed by me or someone, so me and my perfect family can live a happy fulfilling life on the surface. Oh and I have no issue with human children dying even if they're innocent. In fact I openly encourage it."I can see why Martlet is seen favourably in this regard, because she acknowledges both sides of the problem, and wishes to help Clover because of that.
>>3917604>he could have easily erased them with the power he and Chara had. Chara was literally trying to do that.In the past, yes, but how long had it been since their deaths and the death of the second fallen human? Who knows what kind of advancements in weaponry mankind had made since then, they could've gone from bows and arrows to automatic firearms by the time Asgore would've had a single human soul.>Chara was going to fight back, but Asriel resisted resulting in them getting killed.Oh, so *now* someone being manipulated by someone else is responsible for their own actions? Huh.Anywho, Chara's still the one responsible for goading Asriel into the plot to begin with, and their plot still involved killing humans, which you were arguing against, so I don't know what you're doing arguing in their favor.>that doesn't that give them the right to go hunting and killing human children.The fact that all the souls were children is irrelevant, they're humans, of course they aren't going to get a free pass through the underground when their souls are the only viable way out for monsterkind. Again, what do you expect? It's regrettable that anyone has to die in this scenario, but mankind should've thought about that *before* we sealed monsterkind away with a lock that, again, can *only* be opened by the power of seven human souls.You don't just get to insist that they not take their only chances to be free, that's not how it works.Hey, why not just tell kids to not go to the mountain of certain death if you care so much?Seems like something like that should have a warning sign on it, or maybe you should just keep better track of your idiotic and bizarrely ideologically fanatical children.>Oh and I have no issue with human children dying even if they're innocent. In fact I openly encourage it.Again, needs of the many. Individual innocence is irrelevant when discussing the fate of an entire race.
For the love of god, enough already.
>>3917617Hey, I already left it alone, that other guy pulled me back in.
>>3917618If you decided to replay to them, then you didn't leave it alone.
>>3917509I wonder how chujin felt about mettaton
I'm surprised this thread is still alive. Over 1000 replies. This may be the strongest thread yet.
>>3917633threads take a while to die in this board, and I think we've had a thread with over 1300 replies once
>>3917618>the other guyDont look at me, i gave this discussion a rest two days ago and started making its clover jokes.
>>3917618Your in a thread where anyone can reply and share there thoughts at any time. I mean sure you and the previous guy can be done, but that doesn't mean someone else won't come and reply lolI'm more surprised others didn't join since it was so relevant.
>>3917638Im pretty sure there were others replying in the original discussion but sides kind of blend together. Plus the continuation just now was at like 4 am for me. I may be autistic but I have to be asleep at some point
>>3917556I think this angle on Martlet is part of what endears her to me, and more importantly to clover. One of the very few monsters that says "you know, this is actually pretty fucked up" but also tries to do something about that. I really feel like we were robbed in both pacifist endings because everythinf she shows herself to be just kind of gets pushed off to the side. That one ending that was scrapped because it would make asgore look bad in particular is rough because it tells us a lot about who she is, or was supposed to be. On a side note, I dont think she'd like toriel all that much if she got to know her. Martlet is someone who seems to like to take action even if said action is a bit if a mess. I think after yellow she'd also have a massively different opinion of Asgore but maybe im off course there.
>>3917584>I acknowledge there are an incredibly small handful of monsters that are outliers, but when the larger majority are unable to see or accept both sides of the issue, they have no right in trying to claim the moral high ground.I wouldn't say it's an incredibly small handful. Besides Toriel, there are numerous other monsters who aren't big on the "killing humans" thing. There's Papyrus (I wouldn't count Sans since he's more callous and cares only about the promise he made until he warms up to you), Gerson, Alphys who actually has a position with some power, and Mettaton (he will kill you but because he loves humanity) and in UTY there is Dalv (he just wants to enforce the NAP), Martlet, and basically the entirety of the Wild East who LARP as humans too. Then there are a lot more who just don't think about the issue and get on with their lives. Some monsters who are nominally anti-human don't think about what it entails and are just going along with the consensus until they meet an actual human, like Monster Kid. There are only a handful of monsters who know what a human is and want to deliberately kill one, like Undyne, RG01 and 02, Mettaton's mercs, Chujin, and of course Asgore himself. It's way less clear-cut than you make it seem which does not justify killing all the monsters, even if a majority are genocidal. The population of a place at war is not a valid target, and thinking otherwise is a fault of democracy ("they voted for it, therefore they deserve it").Also it's not an excuse but every single monster was personally affected by humanity and being stuck in a prison can mess up your moral compass. People don't typically blame Polacks for holding resentment towards Germany and Russia for what happened in the past, and they aren't being presently afflicted by either nation unlike the monsters in Undertale. Now, reasonable people will say "Don't start a retarded war you dinguses" but action is different from having a feeling.
>>3917638>I'm more surprised others didn't join inThat would require me to read the entire novel-length argument up to this point. When those two start back up I just scroll to the bottom of the thread and accept any interesting side posts as lost in the flood.
>>3917695>when those twoI keep tellin yous guys Im done with it. Im just over here trying to obsess over the bird and foxes now. On that note, while I know Martlet and The Roba dont seem to get along at the end of true pacifist. I like the idea of them becoming at least cordial with eachother in a surface revival situatuon. Them putting the past behind them (even if regrets still haunt them when the sun sets) when Martlet brings Clover over to play with Kanako, who due to my intense autism has also been saved somehow, is endgame goals.I also like the thought of Martlet burning dinner one night (if not frequently as she continues trying to be a better cook for Clover) and everyone going over to Cerobas occasionaly.I need it and WILL imagine it.
Hey (You), how long have you been following these threads? Just as a survey question
>>3917707I've been stuck here for 2 years, still searching for new kanaclover content semi daily
>>39177077 months now with interest still going strong. I worry sometimes since I'm so late to the party, that other peoples interest will die out while I'm still fully enraptured. My deepest respect goes to the other people writing, drawing and developing still.
>>3917589>The needs of the many outweigh the fewThat's easy to say when its not your life on the line. If you were "the few" in question, being asked (ordered really) to die in the name of a race of strangers, the only experience of whom you have is them attempting to murder you, you may think differently.And that's not even mentioning the needs of mankind. I'm the 7 billion humans on the surface have more needs than the few thousand monsters in the underground. Remember that the monster plan for freedom requires complete human genocide to work. If you want to appeal to pure utility, then the monsters don't have a leg to stand on.I don't fault the monsters for doing what it takes to survive. Anyone would in their position. But you also can't fault Clover for holding it against them. The monsters gave him more than enough rope to hang them by. Every argument they have for his death, he can just as easily turn on them.
>>3917707A couple months, since I've discovered UTY and Sig's art was the main pull into here for me.
>>3917707I've been here since the start, I was actually considering dropping 4chan before I saw an UTY thread and decided to give the game a chance
>>3917707a couple months, someone on utg recommended dry to me and I found this thread by searching "kanacole" on archives
>>3917736I wonder how many anons know about DRY but don't know about the /vrpg/ threadsThis is like a secret society within a secret society
>>3917707I've been here since October. I had been out of the Undertale community entirely since 2017 but with the release of Deltarune Chapters 3 & 4, I got into Deltarune and its threads on /v/ frankly the >rapeposting and other shitposts were hilarious. However they started falling off hard in terms of quality after a few months and I noticed the fangame threads were far better. I followed the trail here and the rest is history.
>>3917646The simple fact that Martlet actually acknowledged both sides of the problem and didn't dismiss the monsters contribution to the issue, made me like her even more. I also like how she openly admits she doesn't agree with what Asgore's doing, and actually tries her best to help resolve what's going with Clover, instead of just looking at him like he need her help.I have to agree, the fact the devs removed that entire Martlet scene because they didn't want Asgore to look bad was weak. He already looks bad, from what we know of him, this wasn't going to change anything. I find it incredibly ironic they talk about showing what kind of characters they, but then removes the stuff that actually shows us what kind of person Martlet is at her core.Martlet wasn't really a fan of Asgore to begin with. She was optimistic about how he would treat Clover, but she wasn't a fan of what he was doing in regards to killing human child. Not to mention she goes against the kingdom itself to help Clover. Plus at the end of Yellow she literally quits the Royal Guard, so I think it's safe to say, she wasn't happy at him, and wanted no part in his crusade. As for Toriel, I feel Martlet would be accepting of some parts of her character, and heavily critical of other parts.
>>3917736Did you see the recent image the Martlet Drawanon drew of Kanako and Cole?
I'm shocked how many of you are relatively new, I've been a regular for two years, I'm utterly shocked that this community hasn't died, in fact, i think it's grown, I lost my commitment to a project like three months after UTY released because I figured the hype would die sooner than later, and wow was I wrong, it hasn't even slowed down since then.
>>3917750Those are good points, and I forgot somehow that she quits the guard. I need to run through the game again to refresh my memory on the dialogue shades of justice when I think toriel would be a unique situation for her, in a post pacifist time where they reached the surface, on one hand shed respect that Toriel didn't want any of the humans to be killed, but also hate that for some reason Clover wasn't good enough for her to get personally involved, which would probably mix with her own regret for not trying to save clover in the pacifist ending, or even worse if the flawed pacifist ending wasnt changed and Martlet had to be dragged out, she may hate the royals, seeing them fail to do the right thing when it was Clovers time to face the music. If Clover came back somehow, I like interpretations where Martlet slowly gains more confidence to take him in like she would have in the neutral route, while also in her own quiet moments struggling with the fact that she stood by and did nothing when clover died.The flawed pacifist ending we got would probably be devestating for her self image honestly.
>>3917767as long as the dev anons keep working this community won't die
I finally had a dream with Martlet in it, she was in her zenith form and we were trapped along with 2 other people in a house seperated from space and time with the purpose of killing us, but I was the only one who understood this, while she thought it was my fault we were stuck there. It took me trying but failing to get us all out (I think i had the opportunity to leave alone) for her to believe that I wasn't the one causing everything. The dream ended with the other 2 people dying (they were in on whatever was happening?) And me and Martlet being convinced we were going to escape and deal with whoever was responsible. I think Martlet may have killed me once but im the dream I "refused that ending" and returned to the space time house.Autisim is a hell of a drug I tell you what
>>3916948It's worth mentioning that a human suddenly disappearing after having gone on a rampage has happened before within UTY. The human in question being Integrity.All the details surrounding Integrity are hidden in all three routes, but to keep a long story short. After going on a killing spree in Snowdin, she ends up fleeing into Waterfall, at which point accord to accounts, they suddenly "dissappear" with no one knowing what happened to her. At which point monsterkind moved on from what happened. Of course as we would come to know, Axis would end up killing her, with Chujin disposing of the evidence. Chujin then kept her soul for himself, and spent years trying to fuse her soul to his own, to where she rejected each and every attempt, until Chujin left her soul in Waterfall for some random monster to find.The key details here, is outside of Chujin and Axis whose memories were repressed, no one in the Underground knew what happened to Integrity. For all intents and purposes, to the monsters in the Underground, she literally just disappeared, and this was accepted.. Starlo in Pacifist even lampshades this when they were talking about how to have Clover remain in the Underground, when it was brought wouldn't monsters question if Clover suddenly disappeared, and that it wouldn't be out of the ordinary if he disappeared as such a thing has happened before.So if Clover was reborn as a bird monster by Zenith Martlet, and the fact he was the human wasn't revealed, he would be able to live alongside monsterkind, without them fearing him, and him as a human suddenly disappearing, like how it happened with Integrity wouldn't be questioned, as it would simply be history repeating itself.There's a secret book you can find in Neutral called "Mysteries of the Underground" that details the monsters perspective on how Integrity disappeared, and no one knowing anything about what happened to her, or why her soul suddenly showed up years later after she disappeared.
>>3917794Doesn't Dalv also know what happened to Integrity, based on the FUN event pillars?
>>3916948If you're drawing ideas from the Drawanon's Martlet and Zenith images, If Flowey didn't get involved in a normal aborted genocide route, chances are if Martlet wanted to keep Clover safe, and wanted him to be able to live a better life in the Underground, then she'd probably want to have Clover reborn as a bird monster in this scenario to.When you think about it, even after the most tamest of Neutral routes. You can literally do Neutral without Clover having killed a single monster, and remaining at level 1. For Clover to to live a better in the underground, without always having to be in hiding. Worrying about being hunted down, or being discovered by Asgore or the Royal Guard. He'd have to become a monster.Outside of giving Clover the love and affection he never received on the surface, I'd imagine Martlet wouldn't want Clover to be isolated, and cooped up forever.
>>3917795Dalv does not and could not know about that. Only Chujin and Axis are aware of what happened to integrity. My theory is the ghost of either Chujin or Integrity left those images there to convey their story through the resets. I know this because I spent forever deliberating about it, frustrated that nobody considers this.
>>3917795Dalv doesn't know what happened to Integrity. All he knows, is that he attacked her, she want on a rampage, and he fled Snowdin into the ruins. The fun events are just that, fun events. Not to mention other images unrelated to what happened to Integrity can also show up on those pillars.
>>3917801Integrity couldn't leave those messages, considering when she died, she spent several years doing everything within her power to prevent Chujin from fusing her soul to his own. Then after that hellish experience, she was immediately dumped into a soul jar, and handed of to Asgore.And Chujin went out of his way to ensure he took his secrets to his grave, in a very literal sense.
>>3917794Oh shit, I had no idea about that book. I really oughta give the game another go
>>3917707Since September 2024, I think.
>>3917736I remember when the guy who did that got chewed out here.
>>3917767>I lost my commitment to a project like three months after UTY released because I figured the hype would die sooner than later, and wow was I wrong, it hasn't even slowed down since then.All the more reason to pick it up again
>>3917829what?
>>3917803The cat drawing is random, all the other drawings depict integrity's story.
>>3917832I stopped because I'm an incredibly unlikable person and my art reflects that. Better to keep my urge to deconstruct and pervert things to myself. I'm gross but I'm not evil.
>>3917806Ghosts =/= souls
>>3917834People got mad at him for mentioning this thread on /utg/. They were afraid we'd get raided by schizos.
>>3917801Doesn't really make sense that Chujin would leave images of what happened, when it was made very clear the last thing he wanted was for people know what happened.
>>3917839What was the project?
>>3917844>They were afraid we'd get raided by schizos.>schizos
>>3917861a genuine fear. at least most UTheads don't like fancontent enough to care about UTY or derivates
>>3917862Your manner of speaking reveals you being a gay retard.
>>3917866k
>>3917861We had just before that been dealing with that one guy who'd come into our threads to post 50 times about how we were "talking shit about deltarune threads" or something stupid, and /vg/ in the broad sense is known for people like that. Still if someone found the threads like the anon above then it all worked out.
>>3917754ion really consume dry porn sorry
>>3917871The Kanako they drew was from DTY alongside Cole who's also from DTY.
>>3917839I don't know what you mean exactly but even ugly forms of art have a niche appeal so you should try anyway. I know a guy who draws hyperdetailed gore and bug sex and yes it's as disgusting as you think it is. However he acknowledges its ugliness and leans into it, and is an upstanding dude all around. You really don't know how it will turn out until you make the attempt.
>>3917861Its happened before, multiple times. I remember one notorious schizo from there, whom I won't name because he (and a few others) has a word filter to find mentions of his name, came here to threadshit because someone made the grave mistake of mentioning UTY in a thread he was currently waifufagging in. It took a week to get rid of him.
>>3917885>One notorious schizo>I wont name because he has a word filter to find HIS name>Threadshit
>>3917891I'm talking about the guy mentioned in this post https://arch.b4k.dev/vrpg/thread/3834077/#q3842480 . He's got a name that everyone in vg and the DR threads knows him by, and if you even mention him in one of those it will derail the thread because as I said before, he and the people with grudges against have a word filter. I really didn't want to post that, and I don't want to have this argument, since any attention on these people is bad attention, but people refusing to accept that bad faith posters exist are part of the reason these people get so much attention to begin with.
>>3917707since mid-august 2024
>>3917769Yeah Clover dying was final straw for Martlet. Even before that point she wasn't particularly okay with the idea of hunting and killing a human child, or monsterkinds and Asgore's stance on how deal with a human child. When she quit by her words, she saw the dirty side of what the Royal Guard actually is, which to me just makes me respect Martlet, cause monster or not, she acknowledges what they're doing is disturbing.I like to imagine, before meeting Clover again she'd either be Zenith or half Zenith, that way on the of chance she gets to reunite she's in a state where she can protect him, to ensure what lead to his death, will never happen again. She'd definitely feel very guilty letting him die, so to me, she'd work to become a better version of herself, so she can become the kind of career that Clover deserves.
>>3916410After seeing all your unbirth images with Martlet and Zenith Martlet. Seeing the deep discussions about Clover being reborn as a monster, and the exploration of how it works, and the ideas being presented. I've also been motivated to try and write a story based on your images. Your encouraging words to others, and you sharing thoughts and ideas, on the questions sent your way, has sparked the drive within me to also contribute to making fanworks based on your arts.>>3916411You're not alone my friend. I'm also joining you on this journey to create stories inspired/based on the Drawanons Martlet drawings.I hope others are also inspired by this Drawanon be that writing are drawing stuff based on what they've drawn. They've certainly added life to these discussions, and what they've drawn has lead to some interesting ideas and talks.
>>3917901I don't think you understand what I'm saying about YOU man.
>>3917912>She'd definitely feel very guilty letting him die, so to me, she'd work to become a better version of herselfI feel like with her not knowing he'd return, it would start with her slipping into some kind of depression at first, before finally forcing herself forward and trying to be a better person. > Zenith or half ZenithI like the idea, but there is something appealing about both of her forms that makes me unable to say one is better than the other. I'm working on a story currently where she may go zenith by the end, and then have an idea for one where she will not at any point, though zenith will be brought up in a roundabout way. I know she's the same person underneath and all but again there's an appeal there to both and I'd like to work with both ideas.then of course there's the story about her trying give mercy to a genocide Clover inspired by the drawanons stuff. I'm going to try to tackle these things one at a time so I don't end up finishing none of them, but I suppose I have bird on my brain either way.
>>3917917Very nice, it's been exciting seeing both the people that have been sharing works with us for a long time, and the people that have been recently inspired to write posting stuff, so the more the merrier. Someone mentioned it earlier but it feels like the threads are starting to pick up instead of dying out. I'm finally trying to make stuff myself and I was worried for a bit that I was only finally getting motivated when it was too late at one point.
can we please have something that isn't just unbirthing, for [HEAVEN'S] sake
>>3917933We could go to talking about slime/fire girl breast milk or maybe Sadie's weird hive family
>>3917933The absolute vast majority of the unbirthing related discussion in this thread has been shockingly chaste. Considering the nastiness fandoms get up to, I'm genuinely impressed.
>>3917933That needs of the many vs the needs of the few argument from earlier was interesting.What do you think the characters' takes on it would be? How about if we removed any racial element from it? Say if the death of one specific innocent monster could break the barrier, and he wasn't willing to die for his race.
>>3917947Pacifist Clover probably believes the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few (as long as he is the few). Martlet probably believes that any justice that ignores the few isn't justice at all which ties to her desire to believe that humans could be good despite everything she's been told about them and despite the snowdin incident having been a thing.Ceroba doesn't fucking care and needs a drink to avoid thinking about her dead family, but would have gone with whatever Chujin said if he didn't kill himself.Starlo!Dalv!
>>3917891You know it'd explain a LOT about how weird this thread has been if asshole is here.
>>3917953how can I get a woman as submissive as the roba bros?
>>3917922I think the idea that not knowing if she'll even meet Clover again, spurs her to be better, but in the sense, where she does it, because it's the thing only to keep her going, and maintain some semblance of mental stability, before she starts slowly coming to terms with what happened, becoming better over time.For sure, both forms of Martlet have their appeal whether she's in her normal form or Zenith. Both are important in their own ways, and both have their own impacts on Clover. Saying that as I'm sure you've likely seen in other discussions, while Zenith is indeed the same Marlet, it's a common interpretation the form itself slightly alters her personality. Still the same Martlet in all aspects. Same care, concern and affection, but with a bit more intensity, or less inhibited than her normal form, so more willing and less hesitant.In many ways I can see why the interactions between Zentih and Clover would be interesting, because she'd be willing to do what's necessary to help him, and not hesitate with her intentions.
>>3917955>submissivesomehow, despite how much she just wanted to have a happy loving family with chujin and was willing to take his lead, it doesn't feel like the right word for her. She's too spirited despite a family life being her happy life.
>>3917953>as long as he is the fewWhat if he isn't though? This is about a hypothetical where some random specific monster, who really isn't ok with dying for everyone else's sake, is the sacrifice needed open the barrier.
>>3917960Loyal is a better term. She obeys her husband not out of weakness, but because she 100% believes with her whole heart that its the right thing to do.
>>3917925It has been very exciting, especially due to the that someone's art which presented an interesting concept, spawned all these ideas, and deep discussions, while also motivating others to draw and write stuff based on what they drew. And the lost seems to be steadily getting bigger.The threads are alive and active, more stories are being written, more arts are being drawn, and more topics are being discussed.It's a good feeling to be a part of it, and the recent big discussion has made me excited to see all the Martlet/Zenith and Clover stuff being made. Something which I also plan to contribute to.
>>3917963That works a lot better for me, It's much more intentional which fits her despite some of her less intelligent decisions, she's a fiercely loyal person.
>>3917958>because it's the thing only to keep her going, and maintain some semblance of mental stability, before she starts slowly coming to terms with what happened, becoming better over time.yeah I can definitely get behind it. I usually like the idea that she crashes shortly after clover actually died, like in the first couple days as it sets in "what have I done" or "what was I thinking", before facing herself in some way and pushing herself to become better like you said. I also like the idea of Starlo realizing how bad HE fucked up, and trying to pull the others out of that first week where they have to wake up the next morning and somehow accept that they let a child die (because most important in all of this is that they don't know about flowey, and with how much starlo was putting his own hide on the line before clover said "I want to give up my soul" it makes sense to me)after that initial crash she'd probably throw herself wholeheartedly into changing as a person though.>In many ways I can see why the interactions between Zentih and Clover would be interesting, because she'd be willing to do what's necessary to help him, and not hesitate with her intentions.I think part of what I like about doing this with normal Martlet, is watching her growth in action, seeing her take those steps to become a better person because the kid is right in front of her. stuff that would play out if flowey didn't intervene in a neutral ending you know?something I'd like to see, is her becoming as confident as her zenith self, in a world where she never had to go zenith, ideally in a post pacifist revival where there's very real challenges, but not "I need to fight someone literally"still, I can throw myself wholeheartedly behind everything you're putting down as well.
>>3917982also whoever doodled this, it's one of my favorite little things, because the thought of a normal Martlet taking clover in, facing all of the challenges that raising him would entail, and only having the realization that she's become a mother to clover in a sudden moment like this is endearing. A setting where she's stepped into that role fully, but still being a birdbrain, didn't make the connection, or didn't think clover would ever see her that way.
>>3917965I'm genuinely excited to see what you end up coming up with anon
>>3917962Pacifist route clover absolutely wouldn't. He gave up his own life, but that doesn't mean he'd give up anyones life. He'd be more likely to die in defense of that monster.Hell, Genocide clover may have a relatively similar mindset before the second half of his LV set in. He becomes an asshole as the kill count gets going, but I think maybe if he saw monsters dragging one of their own kicking and screaming to their death, he might shoot the perpetrators, and then spare the monster in question if they got the fuck out of there. That's my headcanon on that second part at least.
It still sucks that the guy making the party game got nuked, I would have liked to see more of it.
>>3917996that little racter chase doodle he did cracked me up. Peak thread content right there.
>>3917636I said "that" other guy and not "the" other guy because I referring specifically to the other guy I was reply to in that other instance instead of you.
>>3917947>Say if the death of one specific innocent monster could break the barrier, and he wasn't willing to die for his race.It's a damn shame, but that doesn't make it any less necessary.
>>3917982She'd definitely be depressed over what happened, and I wouldn't be surprised if she isolated herself over Clover's death, and became a self workaholic as a means to cope. It becomes a perversion to her name, endless effort, in this case becoming consumed with not doing enough, and wanting to be better, than the her that allowed Clover to die.An interesting concept that I remember someone bringing up was that post pacifist Marlet would end up doing something that herself that allows her to switch between her normal form and Zenith, because she never threw away the determination in that route like how she did in Neutral. It's a fascinating concept where Martlet is prepared to go through such lengths that she was willing to do something to her body, just so she can be a better version of herself, in the hopes that should she see Clover again, this time around she sure as hell isn't going to let something happen to him.The idea that she's literally going above and beyond for someone that she doesn't know if she'll ever meet again, but it's the only thing to keep her going, because she doesn't know what else to do, to deal with her grief.
>>3918007>The idea that she's literally going above and beyond for someone that she doesn't know if she'll ever meet again, but it's the only thing to keep her going, because she doesn't know what else to do, to deal with her grief.something I want to add into this, because I've seen some mention that Martlet only knew Clover for a day. Aside from the fact that we've seen monsters can be quick to form bonds, while I know monsters are never shown to have more than deja vu from resets, I like to feel that some part of her is connected to all of the hundreds of times she would have met clover for the first time, and come to that decision to try and give him a better life. for her it would be someone that she only knew for a day but it "felt like a lifetime somehow".>that allows her to switch between her normal form and Zenith,it kind of makes me think of a fic I read where Martlet used the syringe to challenge Asgore to a duel for Clovers safety, and after the duel ended up in a form between her normal self and zenith self.
>>3917983I think Martlet's always acknowledged that she's become Clover's mother figure, especially when you consider she does canonically refer to him as her child.From the get go she was always prepared to face the challenges in order to look after him and keep him safe while he's in her care.Of course when it comes to the point where Clover starts referring to her as mum and not Martlet, that's probably when the realization will really sink in.
>>3918010>I think Martlet's always acknowledged that she's become Clover's mother figurepossibly, but she says "roommates" at first, so I feel like she'd step into the role and "feel" like a mother before she realized what that feeling is. then as she starts coming to terms with it, would doubt that clover sees her that way until like you said, the moment Clover drops the word.
>>3917917>>3917922>>3917965Just thought I'd pop in and say you guys have my full support!Seeing all your discussions and thoughts has been a joy to see. I hope the writing and creativity go well for you all.The same goes to anyone who wants to create stuff based on what I've drawn.I actively encourage it. Go all in!Feel free to send a shout out if you want me see what you've been working on.
>>3918011In Pacifist Martlet calls Clover her child right out the gate. She never refers to Clover as her roomate in that route.In Neutral she refers to Clover as roomate, which leads to me believe, she does see herself in that role, but depending on her self confidence, she might restrain herself.Of course as you said, over time she'd grow into the role, to where it comes becomes second nature, to the point she doesn't realize just how much of a mother figure she's become to Clover, until he refers to her as mom.
>>3918021>In Pacifist Martlet calls Clover her child right out the gate. She never refers to Clover as her roomate in that route.talking about the scene with the shopkeeper right? I forgot about that scene.>to the point she doesn't realize just how much of a mother figure she's become to Clover, until he refers to her as mom.there's also something just sweet about this angle in general to me. It's not a case where she's been avoiding the role, she didn't have to be forced into it or face the music when clover said it. it's something that was always true finally getting said out loud.>>3918016 I'm interested to find out which, if any of the requests from the last thread you went with to do next. back to the art dungeon with ye! I'm glad though that the rambling over the thread has been enjoyable though
>>3918006Well that's your opinion, but what about the characters' opinions on the matter? And for both your and their opinions, where does it stop? What if its more than one monster that needs to die? What if its quite a lot? At what point is the line drawn? Would you kill 49% of all monsters to let the other 51% live on the surface?
>>3918009Since we know it's possible for some monsters to have a sense of deja vu, and the fact that Flowey has essentially caused Clover to go through hundreds, thousands or potentially millions of resets, it's not hard to believe that Martlet would sense that connection.Especially when you consider every Neutral route Clover takes, always ends with him choosing to stay with Martlet and accepting her offer to stay with her, as well as desire to help live a better life.I remember reading comic a while back where Clover in Vengence route chooses to save Martlet and give her his soul, and when questioned by her, he simply says he doesn't want her to die.
I need the 1 or 2 people that ship Dalvkeeper to do more things so I can mentally construct an actual personality for Dalv. I don't like just pretending he doesn't exist when writing but I don't know what to do with him beyond "he's kind of shy and likes music". go forth, construct a more complete character like people try to do with Kanako.
>>3918031>characters' opinions on the matter? UTY doesn't really have too many ideological hardliners in it's cast, so I think most characters would be willing to let whatever monster we're talking about die depending on the context.I mean, we know all of the main cast (possibly excluding Dalv) is willing to let someone die for the greater good, so it just depends on what the exact circumstance really is.>And for both your and their opinions, where does it stop?It stops once the balance is broken. If I need to kill 50% of a population in order for the other 50% to survive, so be it. If it's a situation where the entire population is going to die unless a significant chunk dies instead, so be it.Ozymandias was right, killing millions to save billions is a justifiable practice, even if it's not a "good" thing by itself, it's the lesser of two evils.A handful of deaths in exchange for the eternal imprisonment of an entire race is more than a fair trade, the only injustice is that it came to this in the first place.>Would you kill 49% of all monsters to let the other 51% live on the surface?Emphatically, yes.And to be absolutely clear, I'm willing to die under these terms as well. If Clover's choice were my own, with my own life on the line, I'd do it.I am not excluded from being "the few" when applicable. I can't say I'd be happy about it, like I'd hand it over with a smile on my face or even while feeling remotely okay about it, but I'd do it.It'd be like when the tenth doctor had a meltdown when he saw Wilfred Mott locked in the radiation chamber, and realized that he absolutely *was* going to save him, regardless of how much Wilfred's life didn't matter compared to his.
>>3918033>he simply says he doesn't want her to die.Im IMAGINING the absorption scenario now, where Martlet has finally broken through to Clover, and come to understand what he's been through. As she's trying to get him to accept the opportunity to be reborn and have a better life, the last obstacle is that in every time line he accepted her offer she was killed immediately after. So despite this being a route where clover himself was trying to kill her, he's now afraid to accept her offer saying he doesn't want her to die. in the soulscape, or dreamscape whatever her holding out her wing to him, and he can't bring himself to take it. Even if she's convinced him to try to forgive himself, to try and put away his anger and all of the violence, but now that he's done that he's stuck with that final fear and so this time she closes the gap and embraces him herself, saying she'd take that risk a million more times if she had to
>>3918035dw i am putting things together i am just very busy and very tired
>>3918039Understandable, the next time logically Dalv should be in a story, I will do my best to just "not use him because who is he" but I lack your 'vision' on the matter.
>>3918041>I will do my best to just "not use him because who is he"I'm sorry, I meant I will do my best to avoid not using him.
>>3918037>UTY doesn't really have too many ideological hardliners in it's cast, so I think most characters would be willing to let whatever monster we're talking about die depending on the context.You don't have to be ideological to oppose utilitarian ethics. You can oppose it from entirely sentimental grounds just as easily. Martlet, as an example, wouldn't need to have a well thought out and clearly defined ideology to think that dragging an innocent monster away from his family and executing him is wrong, regardless of what she and others may get out of it.> so it just depends on what the exact circumstance really is.I'm saying the exact circumstance is an innocent monster being dragged away and sacrificed against his will for the sake of the other monsters escaping the underground.>n. If I need to kill 50% of a population in order for the other 50% to survive>A handful of deaths in exchange for the eternal imprisonment of an entire race is more than a fair tradeYou're conflating imprisonment in the underground with certain death, when it hardly is. Sure living conditions are less than ideal, and the effect of the psyche of the monster race is profound, but they live well enough down there. Its not as if those monsters were dead anyways, they would have lived full lives down there if they were left alone.And that's not even covering the psychological impact such an act would have on the monster race. Whose to say they could enjoy or even accept their life on the surface after that. After all, the monsters are an incredibly sentimental race.Beyond even that, where does this line of thinking stop? What's the limit for this utilitarian philosophy? What other compromises would you make for this? Would you take a deal like Dr Breen did from Hl2, and turn an entire race into genetically modified lobotimized slaves, to spare them the eventually extinction that remaining on their home planet in their natural state would bring when their star burned out?
>>3918037my good friend Mr. Kirk, who is an enthusiast in the matter of sex with exotic sapient life thus making him an expert on most relevant topics in the modern age, had this to say in response to the original linehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pstgUrs-lu4
>>3918039>TMthe government doesn't want you to know this, but the Oldentale name is free, you can just take it. I have five at home.Seriously though, its all public domain (well the parts that aren't owned by Toby) do whatever you want with them.Also, its surreal seeing stuff like this made about my little autism project
>>3918046the little autism projects give us life, and passion.
>>3918045I think even Spock might have an issue with murdering an innocent monster for the sake of breaking the barrier. Like say this were a TOS episode, where the monsters were aliens trapped inside a force field which the crew beamed inside of and were now trapped in. Something tells me Spock would be against forcing a monster (or a member of the Enterprises crew for that matter) to die to open the field. He probably would be open to the idea of self sacrifice, but something tells me crossing the bridge into murder is something he wouldn't do.
>>3918049>I think even Spock might have an issue with murdering an innocent monster for the sake of breaking the barrier.100 percent. when spock said what he said, it was only because it applied to himself who was willing to make that sacrifice.you mentioned it a bit yourself but there are several examples from the series where Spock is against that kind of utilitarian stuff when applied to others, in regards to different cultures they come across and even things Khan did as well of course. "the needs of the many" gets used as a rebuke often when it was "not like that" though I know star trek didn't invent utilitarianism
>>3918044>You can oppose it from entirely sentimental grounds just as easily.You can, but it's a question of whether or not they would. I think every character (that we have actual information on regarding this sort of thing, so excluding Dalv) could go both ways, depending.>I'm saying the exact circumstance is an innocent monster being dragged away and sacrificed against his will for the sake of the other monsters escaping the underground.Not an "exact circumstance". Who is this monster? Why is their death necessary to break the barrier? How has this situation come to pass? Is this the *only* immediate way to break the barrier, or would the current human souls plan still work if this one doesn't pan out?These questions matter when it comes to making a decision one way or the other.>You're conflating imprisonment in the underground with certain death, when it hardly is.Perhaps not certain death, or immediate death, but it's certainly a dangerous position for the monster race. After all, we know for a fact from the original UT that all it takes to push the underground into total chaos and anarchy is the death of just a few monsters (Toriel, Papyrus, Undyne, Mettaton, and Asgore). We also know for a fact that a single human can kill each of those monsters, and many more, on a linear journey through the underground, so this isn't some super difficult task either. Monsterkind being trapped underground puts them in the position to have all their leadership wiped out, and their society potentially destroyed as well. So, not certain death, just extremely likely death.>After all, the monsters are an incredibly sentimental race.Monsters can turn on a dime with these things. They went from being totally accepting of Chara living with them to accepting the prospect of human omnicide within a single day.If it means their own freedom, I have no doubts they'd be willing to accept a single monster casualty on their side of things.
>>3918051>it was only because it applied to himself who was willing to make that sacrifice.which, as I think of it, is sounding more like Clover in the pacifist route, which is even MORE reason they fucked up by not having Martlet oppose the sacrifice since she's absolutely not utilitarian or whatever.
>>3918044>where does this line of thinking stop? What's the limit for this utilitarian philosophy?When the price itself outweighs the benefits.>Would you take a deal like Dr Breen did from Hl2, and turn an entire race into genetically modified lobotimized slaves, to spare them the eventually extinction that remaining on their home planet in their natural state would bring when their star burned out?This is a little unfair to Dr.Breen. The seven hour war was absolutely unwinnable for the human race, there was no alternative that worked in our favor. We either had to surrender, or die to the Combine. That was it.There are some theories out there that Dr.Breen was actually playing a longer game than it looked like, that he had intentionally created a weak link within the Combine's internal structure by positioning himself as Earth's administrator, making himself an easy target to take down, allowing the rest of the Combine's order to collapse. I don't know if I believe that for the man himself, he seemed a little more self-interested than to do something so selfless, but if you're asking me what *I* would do, if it were my choice, it would be that.If I can't spare mankind from short term suffering, I can at least spare them from long-term annihilation. The greater good. Always.
>>3918045Well, given that Kirk eventually dies sacrificing himself to save an entire planet, I don't think he'd agree with himself here when the cards are down.
>>3918045>my good friend Mr. Kirk, who is an enthusiast in the matter of sex with exotic sapient life thus making him an expert on most relevant topics in the modern age
>>3918058no anon, that's the whole point of it, and the point of Spock saying what he said, while acting constantly contrary to his own quote. That's a decision you can make for yourself, not others. yes you technically can make the decision for others forcefully of course, but that goes against the entire point at play with spocks self sacrifice.Kirk would make that call on his own life.
>>3918053>Who is this monster? Why is their death necessary to break the barrier? How has this situation come to pass? Is this the *only* immediate way to break the barrier, or would the current human souls plan still work if this one doesn't pan out?Lets say the barrier is literally indestructible (no soul plan here), but the characters know for a fact that if this one specific monster is sacrificed to it, it will open and let them all leave, and this one specific monster is someone who has done nothing wrong and also really doesn't want to be a sacrifice. As an example, lets say the Snowdin Inkeeper's kid.>Monsterkind being trapped underground puts them in the position to have all their leadership wiped out, and their society potentially destroyed as well. Would being on the surface change that though? What's to stop Flowey from killing everyone, or someone else equivalently as evil and powerful?>Monsters can turn on a dime with these things. Then whose to say they wouldn't heel turn on wanting the live on the surface. They were all for peace with humanity, until the Asriel incident soured the whole idea. What if Monster Ozymandius sours the idea of living on the surface for them.
>>3918058Because is arguing from sentiment, not from logic. Sentiment is inconsistent and usually changes on a case by case basis.
>>3918024There's a lot of cool interactions you can find in the game if you go out of your way to find them. Usually just talking to all all of Npc's you find, leads to you discovering something interesting.I also like that Martlet doesn't force it. She was always suited for the role, and was always doing it just by being herself. Then over time she's eventually called what she has been the whole time.
This utilitarian talk reminds me of an interesting way of putting it I once saw, from a Stellaris event. It was written from the perspective of the commander of some fleet or vessel, that had destroyed several populated worlds for the sake of preventing the spread of a biological threat that could've spread across the galaxy if he hadn't destroyed those worlds. The person writing the log says that it may have been possible to save some of the lives on each of those planets, but attempting to do so would've meant taking much more time to address the situation, allowing the threat time to escape to the stars.I forget the exact phrasing, but the person writing the log says something along the lines of, "It's not that I had no right to destroy these worlds, it's that I had no right not to".When the question is about the prioritization of needs, you have no right not to consider the needs of the many over the needs of the few. It's always a net positive, mathematically, even if it doesn't feel good.
>>3918062that's true, but I still hold that Kirk making that choice for himself doesn't go against the logic either. That said, Star trek very often leans on the idea that the emotional side of humanity is also very important. Actually it's an extremely key dynamic between spock and kirk.
>>3918056>When the price itself outweighs the benefitsAnd how do you quantify that? How much suffering is too much, how much benefit is too little?>BreenI generally go by his words in the Breencasts and in the office scene. He's obviously aware that humanity can not win against the combine, but he also seems aware enough of their operations to know that if the portal in the citadel is shut, that's it, the combine lose all access to Earth. So that makes all his talk about immortality and how much he speaks about the greatness of the combine to be genuine. He seems to genuinely want humanity to rise up the ranks of the combine, so they can ascend past their primitive way of life, and become immortal as a species and as individuals and spread across the universes.Even if you disagree with that reading of it, that's not really the point of the discussion, what I'm asking is would you be willing to do something similar to what Breen has done to escape the eventual extinction of the human race at the hands of the sun when it dies?
>>3918064>When the question is about the prioritization of needs, you have no right not to consider the needs of the many over the needs of the few.>It's always a net positive, mathematically, even if it doesn't feel good.the thing is Humans are both logical and emotional creatures, both are hard wired in there. Our emotions push us to take risks and find new solutions, while our logic can be flawed and fail to find alternatives. pure utilitarian statements can also be used broadly and sweepingly to oppress people in the name of the public good. Our emotions are a key factor in balancing that, and while our emotions hold us back as a species at times and should be checked by logic, without emotion we would not be the species we are and have accomplished what we have.And of course when we're talking about entire worlds full of people, it can be argued from a utilitarian perspective that it is absolutely worth it to attempt to save the people. In a setting like stellaris where the end of all things is around every corner, they could potentially be the linchpin in the next operation.
>>3918061>As an example, lets say the Snowdin Inkeeper's kid.That's extremely strange and arbitrary, and it's a shame this kid's been made a sacrificial lamb by the universe for whatever reason, but my answer does not change.There is no choice. The child must die.Realistically speaking though, that kid would be dust the second a certain flower knew about this. If the entire underground knows about this, he knows, and if he knows, there's no way he wouldn't jump at the chance to get the hell out of the underground after all this time.So, moral dilemma averted, really, Flowey's got us covered. No need to worry about pulling the lever if someone else already has it handled.>Would being on the surface change that though? What's to stop Flowey from killing everyone, or someone else equivalently as evil and powerful?Well, the surface in UT sure doesn't seem to have any humans around, so maybe we can cross humanity off the list of problems even without Asgore's plan going off. Unless you think monsterkind erected all that infrastructure like those modern cities and freeways the second they left the underground.As for Flowey, we know he can be pacified, so we'll just have to handle that separately.>What if Monster Ozymandius sours the idea of living on the surface for them.I doubt it, monsterkind seems to really like the idea of not being stuck in a dark cave forever.
>>3918063>She was always suited for the role, and was always doing it just by being herself. Then over time she's eventually called what she has been the whole time.I like it, I need it even.also I dont mean to keep dragging it out, but on that note, I have seen characters that people could say were lessened by just writing them into motherhood suddenly, but it really does come natural here.regardless I'm really interested in finding what I've missed. Undertale itself hit me with the whole "i'm not picking the game up" again autism, but Yellow doesn't quite do that. I am more motivated to find fuel for IMAGINATION
>>3918064But why does the net positive take priority? What quantifies a net positive? What net positive, if any, is too small to justify sacrificing the needs of the few over? Would you kill an innocent just to decrease misery? What about to increase the standard of living? What about just because the rest of the population gets joy from watching the one guy get murdered?You can make a utilitarian argument for why your house getting robbed is good. After all, if there was more than one robber, then the robbers are the many and you are the few, so their happiness comes first.
>>3918071>You can make a utilitarian argument for why your house getting robbed is good. After all, if there was more than one robber, then the robbers are the many and you are the few, so their happiness comes first.oh god, oh no its the bike cuck situation
>>3918067>And how do you quantify that? How much suffering is too much, how much benefit is too little?Please see picrel.>what I'm asking is would you be willing to do something similar to what Breen has done to escape the eventual extinction of the human race at the hands of the sun when it dies?I'm not worried about the sun, we have approximately 5 billion years before it starts to act up. For reference, the Milky Way galaxy is about 25,000 lightyears across. If we can't at least get over to the nearest star at sublight by the time our own sun starts giving us problems, we were never going to last forever.In Breen's position, I'd be more worried about just surviving the aftermath of the Black Mesa incident and the arrival of the Combine, which is why I said I'd be playing the long game rather than go all in on joining the Combine legitimately. Marc Laidlaw says the Combine is literally a gestalt thought-parasite anyway, so I'm not convinced they're the best way forward even outside of dire straits.
>>3918038Yeah in this scenario when you take everything into account, ultimately Zenith Martlet is the one who has to take the initiative, and make that move. If Clover's so conflicted in part because he doesn't want her to die, his minds in turmoil because of all the negative emotions affecting it, and not being able to think straight, Martlet has to act in the moment.In many ways, once Martlet takes in Clover's soul within herself, it's the point of no return. As of that moment Clover's soul is now permanantly within Martlet and can't leave, and from that point on it's a matter of when he gets reborn, which of course is something Martlet will only proceed with doing once Clover's accepted her offer, and not plagued by all the stuff that's been affecting his mind, as this will be a big life change for him.
>>3918068nta, but humans are purely emotional creatures. Logic is an abstraction that exists on top of emotion. Anything you "know" is just something you feel is real, everything is a feeling. Every thought in your head is nothing but a complex web of emotions trying to figure out how they should perceive things.That's why any human system that puts logic first leaves people immiserated and inevitably collapses. Its simply incompatible with human nature.
>>3918072bike cuck utilitarianism is the final enlightened viewpoint
>>3918068>and while our emotions hold us back as a species at times and should be checked by logic, without emotion we would not be the species we are and have accomplished what we have.I agree, one should not act without emotions entirely, but one should take care to not let their emotions get in the way of doing what is right, what must be done. When needed, one must be able to set aside their compassion, and harden their heart.I'm sure you already knew where I was going with this the moment I said those words, but I have a good scenario for you.How about the scenario seen in the events of SCP-5000?Is the SCP Foundation justified in their actions, knowing what it is they're *truly* doing?Is the evil they've set out to commit justified in the face of the much greater evil they've set out to destroy?
>>3918076>In many ways, once Martlet takes in Clover's soul within herself, it's the point of no return.definitely, but I think her reaching out and moving forward once it hits this point is important because it still has a lot of "integrity" to it specifically. Her working the entire time to get him to accept things only to be stopped one last time by him due to his fear of hear dying, then going forward anyways ignoring this and perhaps only this objection because, that is a mothers duty. A mother does not avoid loving her child because the child is afraid of the consequences of that love. If anything she should love more fiercely. A mother does not need permission to love her child, and this version of Martlet, after seeing how many times Clover has tried to live the life she wants for him, has tried to take her hand, would know that he is hers.I'm getting lost in the sauce here I think but this is how I "feel" on the matter
>>3918069Well now you're just using Flowey as a thought terminating cliche. This is a thought experiment, you're supposed to engage with the experiment on its terms.>Well, the surface in UT sure doesn't seem to have any humans around, so maybe we can cross humanity off the list of problems even without Asgore's plan going off. Unless you think monsterkind erected all that infrastructure like those modern cities and freeways the second they left the underground.What?>I doubt it, monsterkind seems to really like the idea of not being stuck in a dark cave foreverRight now they do, but they might not if every monster alive has deep seated psychological trauma related to how they obtained that life on the surface. I find it doubtful that a monster could live happily on the surface knowing his mother, brother, sister, girlfriend, all of his highschool friends, and boss died needlessly to get him there. I know I wouldn't.
>>3918079Logic is esentially just us attempting to interpret our emotions right? To apply "temperance" to them. So what I am saying is just applying that temperance, because even if we are "purely emotional" there is still a balance, because we are also creatures that analyze more than anything that came before us.
>>3918070It's good that UTY has inspired you to utilize your imagination, and that a drawanons Martlet and Clover drawings sparked a ball of creativity within you.I'd have to agree, just forcing random characters into motherhood roles just for the sake of it, won't make them more likeable, and often times will just make people dislike them, cause of how out of place and forced it looks and feels.
>>3918072bike cuck is the perfect counter to utilitarianism
>>3918083>What?You heard me. The surface we see in UT has entire cities, modern infrastructure, the freeway Papyrus drives his car on, the city we see Undyne and Alphys at the beach of, etc.There's a modern world up there, but we don't see any generic humans walking around, any sign that anyone was actually up there keeping the lights on, no serious indication that there's a major human presence on the surface of the Earth. Hell, Asgore and Toriel seem to have both entirely rejected their positions of leadership, with no one obviously replacing them in their duties. Wouldn't that be a bit odd, if there was an actual human civilization on the surface that the newly freed monster kingdom needed to maintain diplomatic relations with, to make sure this whole thing doesn't go south?Who knows how or why it happened, but maybe the surface was already empty well before the barrier ever broke.Nothing in-game directly contradicts any of this.
>>3918082Totally, if Martlet wants to be there for Clover no matter what, not even Clover himself will be able to stop her.If there's one trait of Martlet's that always in full force is that she sticks to her principles and values.
>>3918071>What about just because the rest of the population gets joy from watching the one guy get murdered?Then you are describing a population that takes joy from the suffering of others, which is pretty objectively evil. In which case, anything that runs counter to the needs of said population is actually good, as containing such philosophical monsters has become the greater good in this scenario.
>>3918081>Is the SCP Foundation justified in their actions, knowing what it is they're *truly* doing?I know what you're saying, so I dont mean to be disingenuous here by saying "no", it's just that the scp foundation is written poorly since articles very often go very very far above the number of lives needed to sacrifice to understand something because the writer thought of 60 more funny ways to kill people. the furnace that kills people who say something false comes to mind.the thing is though, it's also a good example when I bring that up because justifying things with "the good of the many" can easily lead to that kind of logic "well these people are disposable and we need to know more about this thing so lets just throw 200 more nebulously defined D class at it who "may" have committed something bad enough to deserve it, even though we have a really fucking good idea of how this thing works already, what if we find something out thats more valuable than the first 199 people?"I'll read that article to refresh myself on which one 5000 is, but the SCP foundation are definitely out of control in their "ends justify the means", and while there is a good article as an "introduction to the ethics committee" thats actually decently written if I remember right, the ethics committee doesn't actually fucking exist.
>>3918016Thank you for all the Martlet and Clover drawings. It's thanks to you there's been active discussion, and people are now working on new stories adapted from your art.Can't wait to see what you draw next, and if some of your prior images get a prequel or sequel image to them.
>>3918089>Then you are describing a population that takes joy from the suffering of others, which is pretty objectively evil.humanity as a whole, incidentally has historically found pleasure from bloodsports, and even today many many many people enjoy such things (outside of safer things like boxing and mma of course). Though it wouldn't be admitted easily in polite conversation, people always love seeing a good accident scene after all.
>>3918074>Please see picrel.Ok, so you would do ANYTHING to prevent human extinction? So you would be willing to turn humanity into nothing but stalkers and Breen grubs to avert extinction? Lets just say that those really are your only options, extinction or stalkers and grubs, no subversion or revolution, you would pick the stalkers?> For reference, the Milky Way galaxy is about 25,000 lightyears across. If we can't at least get over to the nearest star at sublight by the time our own sun starts giving us problems, we were never going to last forever.Combine tech side steps this issue. Even if we really couldn't last forever on our own, with infinite energy, cloning (mental and genetic), and dimensional travel mean that we would. >Marc Laidlaw says the Combine is literally a gestalt thought-parasite anywayNo, the gestalt thought parasite is just another one of the many alien races they conquered and absorbed. Its what they use to copy minds to a from host bodies. The parasite's host species are what would become the advisors and the grubs. The combine itself is described more like a massive machine, a system of systems with no end.
>>3918092hard to believe we're at 1300 posts. with how active it is.
Guys guys, we're missing the *real* point here.Monsterkind is in a bad situation, but we're forgetting that it's not a situation they just wound up in out of nowhere, it was the result of a massive war that decimated their population, that they continue to suffer the outcome of despite the fact that almost no one who still lives was actually around to have been a participant in it.But it doesn't have to be this way. It might take seven human souls to break the barrier, but those souls can be put to better use than that.We know that the power of seven human souls has the unopposed power to reshape the world, even if certain individuals can resist it in certain contexts.Instead of using this power to merely right an ancient wrong, this power could be used to prevent said wrong from having ever been imposed at all.Stop the trolley in it's tracks, go back and prevent the war from ever occurring, use the power of the souls to address the root problem instead of merely a symptom.Then, with the very root of this injustice made right, use the power to put the souls back to where they came from, tying up the last loose ends.With a minor injustice, the root problem can be addressed, and the minor injustice itself along with it.Break the cycle of violence by making it so it never began at all.
>>3918084Logic is a system of cold hard rules. It has absolutes, is unchanging, is always based on fundamental principles. Its often used to interpret emotions, but that's not what it is.
>>3918098>It has absolutes, is unchanging, is always based on fundamental principlesdifferent people can have different logic
>>3918081nta, but I say this with complete certainty. Total human extinction is better than living in the SCP universe. That place is hell.
>>3918097>go back and prevent the war from ever occurring, use the power of the souls to address the root problem instead of merely a symptom.ok, new trolley problem. What if doing this caused Martlet to never be born. In destroying the trolley problem you have given birth to a new one.
>>3918087Ok, but nothing suggests that either. There could be a brass tea kettle orbiting mid way between the sun and the earth right now, and I have no way of proving there isn't, but that doesn't mean it is.
>>3918102I understand discarding the idea of the empty surface for thought experiment, but there's been some fun stories on the idea. I feel that papyrus would be crushed in such a case.
>>3918094>Lets just say that those really are your only options, extinction or stalkers and grubs, no subversion or revolution, you would pick the stalkers?Breen grub isn't so bad. If the mental templates can be put into any biological storage unit, that means a proper human form is also a viable choice. So even then, short term suffering for long term survival is still on the table.As for the Stalkers, only some people were turned into those, the Combine did have people just living their lives in the various cities around the world after all.>Combine tech side steps this issue.Eh, human civilization in the Half-Life universe was seemingly already on the cusp of dimensional travel and teleportation anyway. Hell, Aperture pretty much already had a simple version of teleportation worked out near-flawlessly with their portal technology, and Black Mesa was already working on a prototype dimensional teleporter with their Displacer Cannon. Really, it was just the Black Mesa incident itself and it's consequences that threw everything off.As for infinite energy, that's not a big issue given the tech Aperture and Black Mesa seemed to have either, what with their dimensional reactors, or the simple applications of portals themselves, if we want to entertain the idea of actual troll physics.
>>3918089Why are they evil? And why should their happiness come before the happiness of good people? I thought you were all about utilitarianism.
>>3918024I'm definitely working on some of the requests I got last thread. I got a a whole load of them, many of which were requests based on my most popular drawings.>>3918092You're welcome. Glad I became a source of inspiration for you all.
>>3918099yes, but they always view their logic as the one true logic.
>>3918094>No, the gestalt thought parasite is just another one of the many alien races they conquered and absorbed.No, I mean the gestalt idea proposed by Marc Laidlaw in his writings about Breengrub itself, the idea being that the origin of the Combine itself was a psychic race from another universe that built an entire "imaginary" civilization, that then began to all become absorbed into a single specific parasitic thought-pattern that spread through their race, and eventually began to spread through other universes and races."Efficiency" as a kind of mental plague.His idea also included the idea that the G-Man himself is a member of this race, and that him and his "employers" work to combat the spread of the Combine, in an effort to restore their race to what it once was and end the threat of the mental plague.The Combine is a massive system, but the thing that actually makes it what it is is the thought virus.
>>3918100honestly its hard to argue against that with the shit that people come up with in the articles at this point. It makes it worse that there's a lot of people who feel like they need to one up and make something even more worse terrible bad. It's a fucking hellhole where you can get fate worse than death'd every tuesday and no one will remember it.
>>3918107many people understand that different lines of logic exist. Logic is the weights that an individual applies to different concepts, and everyone has slightly to drastically different weights on things while still operating under logic.
>>3918100Eh, the "Quiet Days" universe is alright.It's just a universe where, on one day, for no reason in particular, every anomaly stopped working all at the same time.It's just a universe that *was* anomalous, but has been made normal, permanently.
>>3918105>Why are they evil?Because you described them as a populace that would take joy from the act of a *purely* senseless murder, and such a thing is just objectively evil.
>>3918112>objectively evil.why, it increases happiness which increases productivity and quality of life. so long as you aren't the few of course but that's the fews problem. Is it really senseless at that point? the romans had a pretty good run of things after all, and I'm not just talking about the gladiators that we know weren't fighting to the death every fight
>>3918101>What if doing this caused Martlet to never be born.A regrettable loss, but the *absence* of one's birth is not suffering, if they, and those who would be affected by such a loss, never existed at all.However, you miss something obvious here.If they power of such an entity needed to bring about such a scenario is so powerful, there is no need for such a loss as you describe it. The universe I describe could be created, with the initial injustice prevented in it's entirety, and the people from the universe where the injustice *did* happen can simply be brought over to the new one, though perhaps stripped of certain memories of the old universe, in the interest of making things run as smoothly as possible.
>>3918114>the romans had a pretty good run of things after all,The Romans weren't objectively evil, and they rarely, if ever, murdered people "just because", there were always multiple reasons.The Romans may have done bad things, but their actions didn't exist in a vacuum, and neither did anyone else around them.
>>3918104>Breen grub isn't so badDid you read the Breen Grub posts? He's got what's basically dementia from all the generation loss his mind has gone through with the constant copying. He's trapped in complete sensory deprivation for eternity. His memories are constantly being edited and replaced, so he doesn't know even what was real. His thoughts are constantly monitored and censored. And by the end of it he's been reduced to nothing but a propaganda machine that tells people to surrender to the combine, all other thought has been removed, as it serves no purpose. >, that means a proper human form is also a viable choiceThe human form isn't viable though, not for the combine, they use synths for everything. At best you would get whatever the end state of the combine overwatch are, which would not be how we see them in HL2, those are still very much not good enough by combine standards to be adopted as a standard synth pattern. The end state of humanity under the combine is a tool stripped of everything except what is needed to be useful to the combine.> the Combine did have people just living their lives in the various cities around the world after all.Those people were all doomed, the combine stopped them from breeding and only kept them around as cheap labor and a pool from which to draw candidates for overwatch and stalkers. The combine have no room for normal humans, only whatever they were trying to make the overwatch into, and we still don't know if that was even possible.
>>3918115>though perhaps stripped of certain memories of the old universedo you strip Martlet of her memories ensuring her ability to mesh with this new universes society, thus fundamentally changing who she is as a person in some way, or do you bring her to the new universe as is, but risk the new universe being impacted by ideals formed in a challenged universe being brought over.Which lever do you pick, the trolley can't be stopped.
>>3918112But why is that objectively evil? What makes it evil? Surely you're not going to make an argument based on sentiment
>>3918117>And by the end of it he's been reduced to nothing but a propaganda machine that tells people to surrender to the combine, all other thought has been removed, as it serves no purpose. >Those people were all doomed, the combine stopped them from breeding and only kept them around as cheap labor and a pool from which to draw candidates for overwatch and stalkers. The combine have no room for normal humans, only whatever they were trying to make the overwatch into, and we still don't know if that was even possible.Ah, but note the wording of Director Leonard Church's statement in my post, some replies back now."When faced with extinction, any alternative is preferable.".Extinction. That is, the cessation of the human race, in one way or another. The future of the human race, as you describe it, is no future at all, as it directly involves the destruction of both the human form and mind, meaning that it in and of itself is not an alternative to extinction, but rather is extinction itself.From this, the alternative is to fight, as the rebels do.
>>3918116>and they rarely, if ever, murdered people "just because", there were always multiple reasons.yes, such as entertainment, because it was funny to feed religious dissidents to the lions. and it was publicized because people love a good show.
>>3918108Breen grub doesn't say any of that. The Shulathoi were psychic philosophers with kingdoms of thought, yes, but they were not the originators of the combine. Nor was the virus. The Shulathoi and the Virus were both conquered by the Combine and turned into its tools. The combine existed separately from them, and invaded their world, leveraging the conflict between the two to take control of both. Much like they did with Earth and the Xen invasion.The Breengrub writings make no mention of the gman at all, nor even any direct implications. Maybe he's a hatched Shulathoi, but maybe he isn't. Personally, I think he's the virus. Especially with him being trapped in a glowing green bacteriophage in Alyx, alongside the way he subverts things and seems to be the polar opposite of the combine thematically, representing chaos and entropy, as opposed to the perfectly ordered system of the combine.
>>3918119Suffering is quantifiable, and happiness is a utilitarian pursuit.If you want an objective measure in this instance compare this race with other races in the wider context, their landmass, planet, solar system, galaxy, etc.If their moral philosophy exists in counter to that of the majority of their existential neighbors, that puts them on the wrong side.To give an example of such a civilization, would you say that the punishment imposed on those from the planet Krikkit was unjust? Should they have been allowed to continue their campaign against the rest of existence itself?
>Martlet seeing Clover give up his bike to someone to make them happier and panicking because no son of hers is going to be a bike cuck
>>3918122>The Breengrub writings make no mention of the gman at all, nor even any direct implications.Okay, I remember the wordings of one of the Breengrub posts implying that G-man and his employers are the ones working against the Combine, but perhaps I am mistaken, I'll have to go back and re-read it sometime soon.Nevertheless, I believe it would make sense for this to be the case, given that the G-Man seems to deploy Gordon Freeman specifically to destroy the citadel on Earth, and also refuses to simply remove the Combine from Earth in HL:A, likely because he wants them there specifically so Earth can be used as the starting point for the Combine's collapse.But yes, I am perhaps mistaken on some of these things.
>>3918120Ok, so at what point is the line drawn and something is counted as the cessation of the human mind and body? Are the overwatch as we see them in hl2 still human? What about CPs with heavy amounts of memory replacement?
>>3918121>because it was funny to feed religious dissidents to the lions.Yes, but you could also argue that allowing religious dissidents to continue existing within their state presented the threat of bringing chaos to the social order, as well as a direct threat to the government itself.In a state where the human race had such a shaky grasp over the world at large, perhaps such drastic measures to maintain power were justifiable, once.
>>3918126I agree with you on that second half, but that doesn't mean he is a shulathoi, just that he's using Earth as a proxy in a proxy war. We haven't even mentioned that Gman exists outside of time and space. The future past and present are all happening concurrently for him. For all we know this could be some time travel scheme and he's actually working for future humanity as part of a bootstrap paradox. Or maybe he's the virus, we don't know what that thought pattern was, maybe its something that benefits from the combine wasting resourced.
>>3918123>If you want an objective measure in this instance compare this race with other races in the wider context, their landmass, planet, solar system, galaxy, etc.What if they all do that? What if they outnumber the races that don't?>Kirkkitdon't know who that is
>>3918128>Yes, but you could also argue that allowing religious dissidents to continue existing within their state presented the threat of bringing chaos to the social order,that's the thing, you can argue anything if you use "the greater good" as an easy out. Anything that the lesser of you do can easily be labeled as heretical or against the social order, and if you have a society that accepts "the greater good" like that they can be literally tortured to death for the enjoyment of the populace and they'll cheer. "perhaps justifiable, once" or perhaps they weren't. Rome didn't fall on account of them not deciding to kill the jesus freaks, but they sure fell anyways, and even became jesus freaks for a while. I'm not saying this as a religious person, but allowing the people in power to say "the end justifies the means" is extremely dangerous.this is all aside from the fact that yes, they reveled in bloodsport, the people enjoyed a good killing.
>>3918127>Are the overwatch as we see them in hl2 still human?Depends, would you say [picrel] are pigs? Perhaps this is somewhat out-of-character for me to say, but I for one think "humanity" is a spirit, rather than a specific combination of DNA sequences. If the things that make us human, our hopes, dreams, our endless drive to know more about ourselves and the worlds we inhabit, continues to exist, along with perhaps some small amount of what made us biologically "human", then "humanity" continues to exist.
Mother fucker it is your faggot ass flooding the thread with bullshit again.
>>3918133I don't know what you're talking about but we were talking about a lot of good stuff with Martlet tonight so that was nice. The conversation is starting to stray way off topic though I think.
>>3918133Who?
>>3918132Maybe you should re-examine your commitment to utilitarian ethics then. There seems to be some pretty strong cognitive dissonance between your views on humanity as a species and the morality it should follow.
>>3918130>What if they all do that? What if they outnumber the races that don't?Then it's time to have either a very awkward discussion over who's right, or one of these sides is going to have to go away forever.Xeelee style.>don't know who that isKrikkit was a planet situated smack-dab in the middle of a dust cloud in an extremely distant and isolated region of space. This dust cloud prevented their world from ever seeing the light of any distant stars or galaxies, or indeed knowing that anything beyond the immediate surface of their planet existed at all.One day however, a vessel from another world crash landed on theirs, which came as quite a shock to them. Their curiosity about what exactly it was, as well as where it came from, prompted them to reverse engineer the craft's technology to create their own vessel of exploration. After building their own ship, leaving their world's atmosphere, and seeing the wider universe for the very first time, their first thoughts were, and I quote: "It's got to go."They then waged a war of complete annihilation upon the entire rest of the universe, which they only just barely lost.As punishment, they were pushed back to their home planet, which was promptly sealed within a time-dilating barrier that would allow them to have their wish, as it would only unseal once it had brought them and their world to the very heat-death of the universe, so they would be completely and utterly alone in the cosmos.So, what are your thoughts on all that?
>>3918134Nah this dude is use AI to flood the thread with shit, I've seen it before, too.
>>3918097>>3918101This is the dilemma of any hypothetical Oldentale pacifist ending, or really any prequel fangame having a pacifist ending to some extent. You either doom all the characters in you meet in it for the sake of the characters in Undertale, or you doom all the characters in Undertale for the sake of the ones in Oldentale (used as an example, you could put any number of other fangames here).
>>3918139the utilitarian guy or someone else. I've been too busy obsessing over the bird, I've even sadly kept myself from writing tonight to spend time thinking about what ifs, which has been enjoyable but I need to make progress eventually.
>>3918103Fun stories sure, I just don't think its a very plausible theory.
>>3918136>There seems to be some pretty strong cognitive dissonance between your views on humanity as a species and the morality it should follow.No, I think I've pretty well reconciled these things within myself.Excessive suffering is bad, but also sometimes okay if used as an alternative to something worse, but can also be recovered from.In short, doing something bad can be good, if it allows the survival or restoration of something good later on.After all, what is the point of utilitarianism if not the prioritization of happiness and well-being?I don't think the Combine Elite are too happy, or too much of anything to be perfectly honest.The maximization of happiness and the minimization of suffering.Perhaps the Stalkers don't suffer too terribly much, but they certainly don't seem too happy, so therefore the Combine is not a valid path to achieving my desired ethical outcome.
>>3918108Is that giant metal head Cave on the top?
>>3918142yeah fair, I want to do a story using it at some point and only replied because i've been thinking of what the best way to justify it happening despite frisk having fallen underground and then breaking the barrier. best I've come up with is "something when wrong during the asriel fight"
>>3918139Are you saying that because I've been using words with more than a few syllables?Because honestly, I think this is quite an interesting discussion, though I will admit it has gone quite far off the rails.
>>3918145Yep.Really, if they just put him into a better computer once they actually had the tech, he'd be just fine.
>>3918140honestly if I like the characters enough, Im doing it. Morals be damned I'll be the one to bear the sins for my scrimblos.
>>3918147No retard, because you've literally had this exact same nonversation fucking twice.With the effectively the same fucking responses.
>>3918118You could edit her memories to make them fit in with the new timeline. She still gets her childhood, all her formative experiences, still grows up in the same town with the same friends and family, but all of that happened on the surface
>>3918150Well yeah, if we're going over the same points obviously we're going to be saying similar things.What, you want me to just swap sides at random when talking about the same thing?
>>3918148If they just didn't forget about him up there he'd be fine. His only problem was that they just left him up there after making him immortal.
>>3918151>but all of that happened on the surfaceI feel like her sense of justice is formed partially from the experiences she had dealing with people suffering from being trapped underground. like I get that you're saying "with unlimited power you can do anything" but you're turning her into a contradiction with the power, which I feel like has to eventually have consequences of some sort. then you could say "well I make there be no consequences" but I don't know man. you'd be making martlet out of not martlet.
>>3918118Yes, what this guy (>>3918151) said, that.Simply retain her consciousness, but edit her memories such that nothing that would be exclusive to the old world is retained.Hell, that's about what happens each time the normal universe experiences a reset, so it's not like it would be too out there to consider.There is no lever, and there is no trolley.Not anymore.
>>3918153They could've also given him a PA system, that might've helped.Anyway, I'm sure we both agree Cave got the better deal than Breen did.
>>3918152No dumbass people don't have literally the same fucking conversation twice, the point is you're clearly not people having a discussion because bare minimum 5 posts in, one of you would have realized>Hey, we already had this literal exact meandering off topic nonversation for like 100 posts before.This isn't how people discuss shit.
>>3918155our replies were at the same time about, so while I don't normally like just pointing someone to a reply,>>3918154its about what I would say there. Feels like you'd be constructing something that's not martlet and making it "be martlet".
>>3918157>This isn't how people discuss shit.Well evidently it is, so I dunno what to tell you pal.
>>3918138>Then it's time to have either a very awkward discussion over who's right, or one of these sides is going to have to go away forever.But who's right according to utilitarian ethics? Is its only answer really just "kill everyone and whoever survives is the righteous one"?>So, what are your thoughts on all that?That doesn't even sound like a punishment. They were already living in pitch black darkness without a start, so living in a void with nothing wouldn't be much of a change for them. Reminds me of the "horrible oppression" of the Ur Quan, where they forced races to live exclusively on their home planet.
>>3918158>Feels like you'd be constructing something that's not martlet and making it "be martlet".If it's the same consciousness, then it's still *her*, it would just be a version of her that never knew the context she originated from, since she'd only have ever known the new universe.UT tells us that memories can be manipulated, but no one ever worries that the people we see in one timeline are fundamentally different versions of themselves from another timeline, so if you aren't worried about that in UT, you shouldn't be worried here.
>>3918159No they fucking don't.The fuck are you even trying to accomplish, this thread is page 10 and 1300 posts in.
>>3918146Maybe it was the apocalypse outside and Frisk was the sole survivor because of determination. Or maybe the apocalypse happened during the events of the game, and the underground was unaffected due to the barrier.
>>3918161>so if you aren't worried about that in UT, you shouldn't be worried here.depends on how time actually works, and to be fair, since people do retain "deja vu" about things from other time lines, its possible that something from her previous self could bleed through? I don't think thats an insane stretch to suggest at least.To be fair at least, that altered self thing is something I would absolutely be kept up at night by.
>>3918160>But who's right according to utilitarian ethics? Is its only answer really just "kill everyone and whoever survives is the righteous one"?If utilitarianism is the ideology of the pursuit of minimizing suffering and maximizing happiness, then you find a way to do so. Whatever that means varies, but in a case such as the one you described, having the two sides just piss off in such a way that they will never again run into each other seems like an okay idea.>Reminds me of the "horrible oppression" of the Ur Quan, where they forced races to live exclusively on their home planet.Yeah, the Ur-Quan kinda suck. Being trapped on your home planet under the crimson red slave field sucks, they suck.
>>3918163it's gotta be a pretty rough apocalypse since by most models, even total nuclear war would have survivors. but you know that's not a problem, is it. I could just say that the apocalypse was indeed that bad. Would leaving it mysterious be bad? maybe too much of a cop out but I remember one fanfic had an idea where resets didn't affect time outside, and so frisk just kept resetting until humanity was gone.
>>3918162>The fuck are you even trying to accomplishWell if I'm being perfectly honest, I'd like to see this discussion end soon myself.I was hoping to get back to drawing Ceroba's breasts sometime tonight, and here I am, caught in a quite interesting moral/philosophical discussion with multiple other people.Ugh, the nerve of these people to make for good conversation, amirite?
>>3918168The same meandering bullshit you've already done before is not "good conversation".That's be like saying the same retards on /v/ going>Muh rappable dooe>Dess pedophile kris sexWith the same fucking images for the 2000th time is a "good conversation".
>>3918165>To be fair at least, that altered self thing is something I would absolutely be kept up at night by.I know, and as someone who highly values his sense of "self", as well as the free will and agency of all sentient beings, I have my qualms with the idea myself.However, as a certain trenchcoat and sunglasses wearing philosopher who pondered similar problems of utilitarianism and free-will once put it...
>>3917922Funnily enough, I'm also writing a Zenith Martlet story, though in that one the two will exist side by side thanks to broken timeline. Still gotta finish it and fix the atrocious amounts of ellipse I used in it so far but I intend on finishing it for sure. The big edgy bird shall get her good ending.
>>3918169>The same meandering bullshit you've already done before is not "good conversation".Ah, I think you'll find upon closer examination that this discussion is rather different from those that came before in this thread, as rather than focusing around ideas of justice, redemption, and responsibility for one's actions, this discussion focuses more on the ideology of utilitarianism itself, and it's limitations and applications in extreme situations, which I honestly find to be a rather fascinating and enjoyable subject of discussion, though I admit it's not exactly for everyone.Ah, your accusations of electronic sentience being used to fuel this conversation are greatly amusing, although it does sadden me to see such intellectual debate branded as being mere trolling attempts by those who don't understand such things.A shame...
>>3918156Really everything about Aperture is just mildly less miserable and majorly more wacky versions of combine stuff. Anything the combine does, Aperture does better>Combine have an interdimensional empire, Aperture has an interdimensional fraud scheme>Combine copy minds to grubs, Aperture copies minds to hyper intelligent super computers>Combine portal devices take a structure ten times the height of the world's tallest sky scraper, Aperture portal devices can be held in one hand (and still manage to fit the miniature black hole)>Combine turrets are big, bulky and dumb, aperture turrets are small, sleek, sentient, and fire the whole bullet>Combine megastructure destroyed in an afternoon by a theoretical physicist with a gun, Aperture megastructure survives one ai meltdown, 1000 years of no maintenance, two reactor melt downs, and the best efforts of the greatest moron who ever lived
>>3918171I remember your story! I'm glad to hear you're still working on it and on improvement. Through bird, unity.
>>3918172Your word salad has no power to hide the actual substance of your nonversation.
>>3918157>the point is you're clearly not people having a discussion because bare minimum 5 posts in, one of you would have realized>Hey, we already had this literal exact meandering off topic nonversation for like 100 posts before.>This isn't how people discuss shit.Maybe you're new to 4chan, so I'll clue you in. All discussion here is like this.
>>3918108Fascinating. That is a brilliant concept and makes it all the more disappointing that HL3 was never produced.>>3918100Counterpoint: SCP-166>>3918124It's not bike cuckery if it's giving it to somebody, then it's just charity. Bike cuckery is excusing crime even if it results in harm to oneself. Unfortunately there are people like that irl.>>3918169Come now, don't be rude. I agree complex discussion on morality doesn't work well in this format but the attempt is at least entertaining until this thread inevitably slides off the board. That said, my two cents are that ethics are fairly clear-cut once you acknowledge the capacity of man's independence and free will; to interfere with that independence, whether by murder, slavery, or taking away his property, is unethical. This is at odds with utilitarian ethics, since like in heroic stories it is unjust to sacrifice a virgin to save a village and it is justified to rescue her even if the village is destroyed. Human sacrifice, after all, is the logical endpoint of utilitarianism and I don't see it as an accident that religions that developed great civilizations explicitly forbade it.
>>3918166>Yeah, the Ur-Quan kinda suck. Being trapped on your home planet under the crimson red slave field sucks, they suck.I have lived my entire life trapped on one planet. Its not that bad.
>>3918175
>>3918178Yeah, but have you lived your entire life trapped on a planet under a "slave-field"?Also, humanity in the Star Control universe at least briefly had a peaceful presence on other worlds, so having those worlds destroyed and forced back to Earth under a glowing crimson sky isn't exactly the same as living on Earth now.
>>3918167> Would leaving it mysterious be badNot at all, especially if its not the main focus of the story. You really only need an answer for what happened if that's important to the story.Otherwise, everyone could have gone on a permanent no Frisk day for all you care.If you do want an explanation, chiral bacteria would wipe out all life on Earth if it was ever created and released into the wild. Or you could say everyone got abducted by aliens.
>>3918181I guess the red sky would suck, but is it even visible from the surface?
>>3918177>all the more disappointing that HL3 was never produced.The Steam Machine should be releasing this year, and the "HL:X leaks" have been preeeeety interesting to say the least.You haven't given up hope, have you Anon?
>>3918179I need a Berdly version of this image
>>3918176>All discussion here is like this.Discussions, no, retards pretending to have discussions, absolutely obviously, and especially with marketing teams infesting the boards all the time now.Sure, I could point to say, a crash bandicoot thread on /v/, and say>Yeah they're kind of like thatWith the incessant posting trying to assert crash 8 isn't bad.But that's the exception and obviously not what people talk about, and even with 5 years of No Gaems people still have pretty varied conversations.And everyone in there KNOWS it's the same asshole making the same posts over and over.
>>3918149But you're still killing once set of scrimblos to keep another.
>>3918182ok that's good to keep in mind. I wanted there to be some infrastructure left but not all of it, but it was really just a vehicle for clover and chujin eventually bonding as chujin sees clover despondent over humanity being gone. Originally hoping his sacrifice would have given a chance somehow for humanity and monsterkind to learn to live alongside eachother. maybe the core idea is dumb but I can't find myself caring about that and will do my best to write everything else as well as I can.
>>3918183It covers the entire planet and is visible from the other side of the solar system, so I have to imagine so.Anyway, like with the barrier in the underground, living somewhere of your own accord is one thing, being forced to live in that same place under threat of death is another thing.I, for one, resent being confined to Earth for so long, and would very much like to go home now.
>>3918177>Counterpoint: SCP-166 yuri cursed
>>3918186>With the incessant posting trying to assert crash 8 isn't bad.NJB, and I know this isn't the topic of discussion, but I'm honestly just surprised there are 8 mainline crash games, I thought there were only four of them.
>>3918187yes, that's why I said it's not something I'm doing on moral grounds. If I find myself liking the oldentale scrimblos enough I will tear apart space and time for them. hmm, kind of sounds a little Ceroba like. Ah shit Martlet wouldn't like me. That would definitely be too far gone on her moral compass.
>>3918140Well, you could always include an alternate ending as a "what if?" scenario if you meet some super specific requirements.Also, I don't know if you're Oldentale Anon or not, but I am seriously considering drawing Wiki's helmet lodged in the ground with Mt.Ebott in the background, Halo:Reach style.I like the characters, what little I know of them, but I like continuity more.
>>3918191They called the new one crash 4, but it's the 8th game and nobody really cares for it.And you know you're not doing yourself any favors bringing up irrelevant things you're still upset about.
>>3918194Okay, I should've known that would've gotten an accusation hurled my way.To be clear, I think crash fans kinda suck and I'm glad he didn't make it into a smash game.
>>3918189>It covers the entire planet and is visible from the other side of the solar system, so I have to imagine so.But is that it glowing or it reflecting red light? If its reflecting, then everything under it would look really blue or green. If its a glow, does it shine on both sides of the forcefield?If its a glow and shines on both sides, then having the whole world look like a gamer bedroom would suck, but there are worse fates.>being forced to live in that same place under threat of death is another thing.Yeah, but you're already forced to live on Earth under threat of death. Go ahead, try and live on Mars, see what happens. Anyways, if you've ever been forced to live somewhere by circumstance, and that place is nice, then it really isn't that bad. I'm gonna have to side with Sans on this one (as much as it pains me to say it). The underground is a nice place all things considered, and the monsters should learn to appreciate what they have.
Alright, it looks like the main topic of discussion has finally exited the spotlight, I can get back to drawing tits.Please, nobody drag me back in, for the love of god.
>>3918198anon, you must not only become strong enough to put down the bottle, but refuse it when handed to you.
>>3918197>The underground is a nice place all things considered, and the monsters should learn to appreciate what they have.Aside from the door that keeps you in a permanent (locked in here with me) scenario, and the difficulty acquiring resources, and the finite room for population growth, etc.A nice place to stay in willingly, if you have other territories, but to be trapped in with very little agency? Not great.>Yeah, but you're already forced to live on Earth under threat of death. Go ahead, try and live on Mars, see what happens. Speaking of Star Control specifically, we're not just comparing Earth with Mars, we're talking about actually habitable Earth-like planets you could potentially be living on, that people *were* living on before the Ur-Quan entered the picture.
>>3918199Well now you've got me thinking about bottles of other things, and now I'm motivated to get back to it.Thanks anon, and good talk everyone, this was nice.
>>3918198How big are they, what shape and what size and type of nipple do they have? You really thought you could leave that easily?
>>3918196I don't care for your homosexual behavior and objectively incorrect vidya opinions
>>3918192I'm not talking about morality. I'm talking about losing scrimbles. Its like having cake and eating it. If you have a Racter then you can't get a Martlet, and if you have a Martlet then you've already lost your Racter. You can only have one of the other, so you must choose. That's the dilemma.
>>3918206I'm saying if I like oldentale enough then it has to be done. and acknowledging that its a terrible loathsome decision to make. Currently as things stand I would unmake ever atom of undertale for the bluebird, so if hypothetically I loved racter as much as that one anon, then I would have to end all realities but his.now as much as I enjoy following oldentale, I dont know that I could compare to THAT anons feelings.
>>3918193>Also, I don't know if you're Oldentale Anon or not, but I am seriously considering drawing Wiki's helmet lodged in the ground with Mt.Ebott in the background, Halo:Reach style.I would very much like if you did that.
>>3918203Ah fuck, fine, one more post.>How big are theyBigger than her head, about.>what shapeYou know that shape when you hold a water balloon by the. The mouth? Is that the word for it? The mouth of the balloon? The little bit you get when you tie a water balloon shut where the hole of the balloon used to be, that. Shaped a bit like that. But also like, you know, not straight-down or anything, at like an angle.Wait, do you mean like the shape of the nipple?Uh, ovular, roughly. Still a sketch right now, not done yet. They'll probably be a bit ovular, not like even circles.>what sizeProbably bigger than they realistically would be, not not like, hyper I guess.Or maybe I have poor standards for what constitutes "large" when it comes to breasts, I've been told I draw really large breasts in every relevant request I've done when I haven't been meaning to, so I might just be a bad judge of these sorts of things.>type of nipple do they have?The kind that's erect. I assume you're asking if I'm drawing them inverted or something.>You really thought you could leave that easily?Honestly, no.Every second I spent typing this dumb shit is a second I could've spent getting closer to finishing the drawing.
>>3918208Yeah, getting drunk and hitting on a fictional character like they're a real person is some serious levels of affection.
>>3918209>I would very much like if you did that.Damn, alright, you want her put in the meat grinder eh?Alright, I'll get back to you whenever I end up doing this.
why cant you just say that the good ending with scrimblo set 1 leads to a different timeline where scrimblo set 2 still exists and is ultimately happier because the events during scrimblo game 1 solved the main dillema in scrimblo game 2?
>>3918213that's what I want ultimately, but I was responding to the what if at hand which involved sacrificing one loved thing for another. But I would need to love racter at least 6, maybe 7 times more than Martlet in order to not literally die in the process myself.
>>3918201They have unlimited free energy, the most stable government in history (thousands of years with the same government), a good stable culture, everybody knows everyone else, the underground is a beautiful place. Sure its crowded, but they manage. For all their talk of war with the humans, their participation in it is entirely optional, they could very easily just seal up the entrances and never have to worry about human attack again, nevermind that wider humanity doesn't even remember they exist.If there's any lesson the last few years of life has taught me, its that things can be a lot worse than what they are, so you should appreciate what you have. There are plenty of people who would kill for what the monsters have.
>>3918210I prefer a more tasteful size, and a perky shape, but to each his own. Good luck anon and I'm looking forward to it!
>>3918214>But I would need to love racter at least 6, maybe 7 times more than Martlet in order to not literally die in the process myself.
>>3918217god DAMNIT it happened AGAIN
>>3918211Don't you assert me into your tomfuckery.
>>3918174Thanks anon, hopefully I can make something that others will like too, not just me. Already have an idea for a pair of pictures for it that I might try and sketch out in the future just worried I won't be good enough for it.In the meanwhile, have this bird as Zenith.
>>3918220>just worried I won't be good enough for it.don't stop yourself with thoughts like that (easier said than done). i've held myself back from drawing as I freeze up with feelings like that any time I try to work on learning.
>>3918215>They have unlimited free energy,They have geothermal energy, which is tied to the lifespan of Earth's own internal heat, but also the reactor in question apparently has a tendency to erase things from existence, so that's not great.>the most stable government in history (thousands of years with the same government)That's only because Asgore himself is still around, we know how fast the underground can go to shit once he's out of the picture.>they could very easily just seal up the entrances and never have to worry about human attack againWith how much humans love mining and digging holes? Monsterkind would never be able to keep the underground sealed forever, we'd find a way in no matter what. Plus, sealing themselves in means they also have a finite space to deal with any natural disasters or any other kinds of non-manmade crises, which is also bad.>its that things can be a lot worse than what they are, so you should appreciate what you have.See picrel.
>>3918213Because scrimblo set 2 was created expressly by the bad ending of scrimblo set 1. The circumstances needed for their birth may never occur. Take Asriel as an example, he's the product of Toriel and Asgore's relationship. But if they never get forced into the underground together as the last two remaining boss monsters, then they may never have married. Maybe Asgore and Toriel would have married different people and produced different children
>>3918222>They have geothermal energy,is the core actually confirmed to use geothermal? I know its over by hotland and all but the things like "darkness totems" in the core make me think geothermal is a red herring and its actually powered by "something else"-
>>3918221I know anon, got that advice a lot of times it's just hard to not think less of my work when seeing the results. But also I gotta make something for Laika (coyote mom game wrenched my heart I swear to god) and then maybe this idea.
>>3918216>I prefer a more tasteful sizeOh, I plan on making them very tasty.But yeah, that's fair.I hope it satisfies, when it's done.
>>3918224>is the core actually confirmed to use geothermal?Actually, I don't know, but if the other stuff you're saying is true, I'm not convinced using a power that can apparently drag an entire world into eternal darkness is a better alternative.Especially when that power tends to behave in strange ways in enclosed spaces.
>>3918228Core seems pretty safe if you just, don't fucking jump inside.
>>3918222>They have geothermal energyThe core isn't just geothermal, its something else, which is why it took gaster to make it. Thing probably runs on dreams or plot contrivance or some other crazy meta fuckery and the thermals are just there to sustain the reaction.>but also the reactor in question apparently has a tendency to erase things from existenceGenerally jumping in to the main chamber of any kind of powerplant is bad for your health.>See picrelYou'll get it when you're older Calvin.
>>3918230>Generally jumping in to the main chamber of any kind of powerplant is bad for your health.don't know why this caught me so funny but I'm laughing like an idiot now.
>>3918219What do you mean?
>>3918229It doesn't have handrails, really it's a threat to everyone.
>>3918233Gaster didn't actually get scattered across space time. he just got horse cursed for being retarded and not installing handrails
>>3918233Why bother with those when every drop higher than six inches has invisible walls?
>>3918231Just imagine Gaster going for a swim in a hydro electric turbine
>>3918236so it wasn't an issue with the core, Gaster just had issues with power plants and Liveleak logos.
>>3918212What was the human-monster war if not the meat grinder to end all meat grinders?
>>3918238More like a powderizer if we're being honest.From my understanding of the war, very little meat was ground, that's why it ended the way it did.
>>3918240well then wouldn't the proper question have been "You really want me to put her through the mill, eh?"
>>3918241Yeah, something like that.Poor goat, into the grain mill with ye.
>almost 1500 postsinteresting.good night anons, I'm going to try to be productive tomorrow.
>>3918242Could you give me a rundown on Oldentale? Tried looking for it briefly but couldn't really find anything.
>>3918292I am not the Oldentale anon, sorry.Best I know is that it's an Undertale fangame taking place during the human-monster war.Past that, I don't really know too much more than you do.Has some cute characters though.
>>3918074>picrelgiven what happens in Nine Sols, I'd say dying in relative peace is preferable to becoming the Flood.
>>3918304>given what happens in Nine Sols, I'd say dying in relative peace is preferable to becoming the Flood.Counter-argument, fuck the tao, just keep doing eugenics until you get it right this time and tell nature to shove it.
>>3918106Now I'm excited to see what you end up drawing.I'm happy with anything Martlet related that you, since you draw her so well. Zenith included.And Kanako to, she looks hot in the previous image you did.
>>3918311>the autist that bitches about taoism found his way to these threadsoh joy
>>3918311They tried that and the end result was the flood.
>>3918106fingers crossed for dark world sadie
why does the thread gets hundred of posts every time I go to sleep
>>3918292fangame that takes place during the human-monster war, in which you play as a monster with a human soul named Racter. Uses a custom engine because my autism refuses to accept that the system requirements of godot are necessary for a game like Undertale.
>>3918412Oh neat. If I recall Racter is the yellow bird guy? How did he manage to snag a human soul?
>>3918421He just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time in the middle of a war
>>3918426Damn. Sounds like he is not happy to have one to begin with.
>>3918428well, its better than the alternative.
>>3918106I swear to god if you don't draw Martlet in a dress I'll, I'LL consider politely asking for it again the next time you do requests
>>3918435Would Martlet wear her workboots like she always does she has nothing else to wear, have her weird bird talons out, or take out a loan just to buy matching shoes that a bird monster can wear?
>>3918437hmm, if she's wife at this point, then she's probably confident enough to go talon or just wear the boots, but I think not the boots because I had in mind a really fancy restaraunt and she doesn't want to look silly.on the other hand if this is a date before marriage then either the boots (because she forgot to get nicer shoes for a monster) and is embarrased about it, or she took out the loan, and is also worrying about that.pre marriage or post marriage date, this is important.
>>3918431I imagine that being gone with the wind.
>>3918435With the amount of requests drawanons gets I don't blame for not being able to do them all, and having to be selective.
>>3918449I know, I was just being silly about it is all. I woke up thinking about Martlet in a dress and my soul screamed for glory. I'm sure hoping at least that the draw anon takes things in good spirit.
>>3918437I really don't get why her talons would be weird. I think we've had this discussion before about monsters not having a stigma about shoes or clothing as a whole, but more specifically all the bird monsters we see in Undertale that I can remember that I can remember (the drakes, the barflies at Grillby's, the hot dog bird, Berdly) go barefoot. I understand you just like talons and so do I but it seems like a really weird trait to project onto Martlet; even if she does lack self-confidence in other areas there's nothing that indicates she has a problem with her physical appearance in general.
>>3918451Honestly the drawanon seems to be very chill, and very approachable.Outside of interesting request ideas, they also seem to like drawing popular requests, which is understandable.
>>3918456NTA, but human women can be self conscious of any given part of their body despite them being completely normal and not deformed in any way compared to any other woman. So the bird who already has confidence issues worrying that her human lover may find her bird feet weird is cute. Especially since she doesn't normally walk around in her bare feet in public, something that again many humans in general have a little oddness about since many people feel uncomfortable in sandles in flipflops since we're so used to having our feet covered.those examples you gave also go barefoot all the time, while martlet does not, notably wearing those boots both in her yellow version and in DRY where she's in a significantly different climate. beyond that, its a cute headcanon that you're needing to "make sense" much more than is really necessary.
>>3918456TA. There are other headcanons revolving around a Deltarune Martlet that have no basis in canonicity but which oddly suit her. An anon mentioned he imagined her as a midwesterner and didn't bother to explain, but to me that makes sense because 1) there are a lot of French descendants in the Midwest, 2) the Midwest is cold and has a climate she would be used to, 3) the way she talks sort of lines up with how midwesterners talk, and 4) her house in DRY1 is self-built which implies she moved there from somewhere else. There's absolutely no reason she has to be a midwesterner compared to anything else, but it's just a cute characterization that "fits."In the same way, your arguments against "talons are weird" Martlet are perfectly sound and I can't rebut them, but I can explain away the issues by saying it's a difference in culture. In some parts of the country, it's normal to see people carrying guns around whereas it would put people on edge at least in other parts; in some cities wearing a hoodie and track pants is normal attire but will get you looks elsewhere. I imagine that majority-monster locales are fine with monster fashion, but Martlet could be from a majority human town where there's more pressure to fit in. In the end, it comes down to personal taste, just as some people would prefer Wiki having a tail and others not.
>>3918438>pic rel>Clover sees this during one of the Neutral route hallucinations
it actually shocks me how much art is still made of yellow. Blessings upon all of you artists in your fevered madness.
>>3918426The right man in the wrong place...
>>3918465Well, I do have to say I like cultural clashes and people of one species adopting cultural values that don't make any sense for their species due to proximity with a more dominant culture, like the Dodger side story from Prequel.Although if we're going down the path of shoes being a predominantly human cultural trait then I feel like Chujin would make his whole family go without them as an act of monster pride. Maybe that's a thing in that angsty schizo DRY take
>>3918501I don't get the impression that the angstmaxxing take is going to do anything of note with Chujin. It feels like every time I see something new from it it's got less to actually say.
>>3918501I saw the pic before reading and immediately thought of Prequel because of the style. I've read through half of the side story now and kekShoes aren't exclusive to humans, I just think that monsters have a more utilitarian view of them. They'll wear them in an industrial workplace or on particularly rough surfaces, but because monster feet on average are tougher than human feet that isn't too often. If you wanted to go to the logical extreme of "monsters rejecting human norms" then they would be nudists which is rather ridiculous. The idea of radical anti-human monsters forming a nudist colony is pretty funny though so you can go with that if you want.
>>3916278HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>3918507>It feels like every time I see something new from it it's got less to actually say.I'm not surprised at that, it's very much just a teenager's vent art, and the characters in the drawing are going through just about a 1:1 of the author's emotions and problems. It is what it is and I like the drawings but I don't expect deep storytelling from someone who hasn't had enough life experiences to approach the subjects with a more rounded, less in-your-face touch. Give the author 10-15 years and they might be able to look back on how they're feeling now, with the hindsight of what it led to and how much of it was caused by their personal demons v. external factors, and they might be able to pull some compelling storytelling out of these emotions.
>>3918530>it's very much just a teenager's vent art,yeah that's fair, I don't mean to be harsh on it since its good to draw even if its ow the edge. I just don't think there's really much to actually discuss in regards to it. I do like many of the designs though. Aviator Martlet isn't my favorite Martlet, but its not a bad thought either.
>>3918518>If you wanted to go to the logical extreme of "monsters rejecting human norms" then they would be nudists which is rather ridiculousChujin tried that but it didn't go well
>>3918541there's just something wrong with them fox monsters
>>3918543Imagine his reaction to some human teenager snickering at his response.
>>3918543BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>3918530>>3918533>>3918507I still check it daily since I just archive everything but it still makes me sad due to the missed potential, also I have no feelings towards the dog oc that kanako has a crush on since we barely know any info on her so it is suselle tier so far
>>3918558it's just one of those generic as can be yuri things, like kanacole could be said to fall into some tropes and all, but people do a pretty good job of giving them some personification. but again, whatever its good that someone is drawing and there's some nice designs.
>>3918549I can't escape it
>>3918558I only just noticed the dog is wearing flannel, this really is the most stock yuri template>the AU finally has a name>DeltaGOLD (author's caps)Well at least we can stop calling it "angsty DRY"
>>3918558If its any consolation, there seems to be a love triangle between them involving Clover. Still just a beat for beat retread of Suselle vs Kriselle though
>>3918567we're gonna keep calling it angsty DRY
>>3918570Almost feels like an insult to DRY at this point to say that.
this was likely the longest thread this board has even seen
>>3918595I'd even argue it was on topic the majority of the time.
>>3918595but is it the longest it will see
>>3918598time will tell, perhaps the next time draw anon drops something on us we'll go a different variety of insane.
>>3918595>page 11one more thread gets made and we're off the board.dont just make another thread cause i wanna see how long this lasts.
>>3918603it was a wild ride either way
Isn't 300 the image limit too? It's been a pleasure, anons. We're going to line up with a weekend thread, too.
we went over the 1500 mark, has this ever happened in this board before?
>>3918598I'm always willing to argue about stuff as long as it's interesting, so the next time a topic like the ones we saw in this thread pops up, we'll see what happens.
>>3918609Testing if it's 301 like the post limit on some boards, if it is I claim the last image for Axis
>>3918613Marvelous, a new Axis image
>>3918600>>3918611The Drawanon who drew all those Martlet, Zenith and Clover pic is to thank for this.Their presence, words, and art added a lot of life into these threads.
>>3918616Every drawanon, write anon and dev anon, thank you.even that one that gave up his dev dreams early on in the threads
>>3918613axis my beloved, probably made me physically laugh/smile the most out of any character in uty
Good thread this time around.Let's try for a different argument topic next time though, I think we got everything out of this whole "redemption" topic this time, not much to go over there again.
>>3918620It's definitely gonna come up in a natural manner when the anons writing are working on material. I welcome it, but we probably shouldn't turn THAT into a 200 post argument.
>>3918595Deltarune had a longer thread a while ago.
>>3918623wasn't that thread only 1300 posts long
>>3918620This redemption topic was kick started by the drawanon's Martlet and Clover.Which went on to motivate and inspire others to write stories based on what they drew.With many discussions spawned from the ideas that were being presented.I think it's safe to say this topic, isn't over any time soon, if anything it's going to create more topics to talk abot.
>>3918622>>3918625Yeah, I'll probably just go grumble in the corner about it then whenever it pops up.As long as it's telegraphed as being clearly set in a separate continuity and we aren't seriously entertaining the idea that murders with 80 kills to their names just need a stern talking to and a better relationship with a mother figure and they'll be right as rain, whatever.
>>3918626>and we aren't seriously entertaining the idea that murders with 80 killsanon, I said earlier its not just about putting the bottle down, but refusing when one is offered to you.
>>3918628Yeah yeah, I get that, but you do see why that's insane though, right?Like, the idea of just letting someone who intentionally killed 80 people just walk away without so much as a slap on the wrist and insisting they deserve a normal life with no consequences after what they've done, you get why that's completely insane right?
Look as long as you retards don't do this again until well after bump limit, we'll be fine
here we go again...
>>3918630see for instance anon, I am refusing the bottle. and instead I'm thinking about the bird
>>3918633I can refuse the bottle if I want, I am deliberately choosing not to.For some reason.At the very least, do you see what I'm getting at here? Even if you don't agree, do you understand?
>>3918635Anon, you may not be refusing the bottle, but I am.
>>3918630Different anon here. I wouldn't say intentionally killed, since it is made clear, that Clover can and has spared monsters unprompted, if they stay out of his way, and that's not just for Martlet.That and as another anon pointed out, monsters for some reason choose to fight to the death, when it's been proven they can flee.When the monster were evacuated, it's not like Clover went out of his way to try and find them. For all intents and purposes Clover wanted to get to Asgore to get the souls, and if you tried to stop him, or got in his way, he'd retaliate.I think what's more insane, that other monsters didn't try what Martlet did, when she encountered Clover in Snowdin.
>>3918638nta but, you've got me thinking about the virtues of the bird again. When I first tried the game, I thought she was just going to be a ripoff papyrus what with the "talk" things and the whole royal guard stuff, and while both of them are probably the strongest moral pillars in their games, Martlet has views that are uniquely different from the others.
>>3918638>When the monster were evacuated, it's not like Clover went out of his way to try and find them. You literally do have to go out of your way to find them in the genocide route, you don't encounter enough monsters to fulfill the requirements for it if you just pass through each area as quickly as possible. Flowey even tells you how many you have left in any given area, so yes, those kills are explicitly intentional.Also, as for the "running away" argument, we know from actual gameplay that attempting to flee from an encounter doesn't always work, and we have no reason to believe it necessarily always would for the monsters either, so it's possible that some of the monsters actually *are* trying to flee from Clover during their fights, but fail.
>>3918600I'm honestly also very surprised this thread has had this many posts, as well as remained active for all this time.>>3918616I'm happy to add life into these threads, it's been a very positive experience for me to.>>3918618The more draw, writer and dev anons the better! I Hope the number continues to increase.It's been nice talking to everyone here to, and getting involved in some of the discussion.
>>3918642NTA but I didn't see it as seeking evacuated monsters - all the remaining monsters are still here because they accept the premise of a fight, so they'd attack me, so they'd attack one of the fallen, so they're a threat that need to be taken care of.At the very least Clover isn't far enough in the genocidal slope at Snowdin to hunt monsters unwilling to fight, as shown by sparing Mart.
