So is it an immersive sym or an RPG?
>>3913704It's a first person point & click action adventure with RPG elements
>>3913704It is real time thus not an RPG. Immersive Sims are a type of ARPG so probably that. Still it is pretty barebones in that department.
>>3913705But it has shooting mechanics like in Half-Life 2
>>3913710It's called having doom-like elements
>>3913711Doom hasn't been relevant in 57 years.
>>3913704its a good game
It's a first person action RPGIt's not like imsim elements are a real thing anyways. Spector just made it up because he needed a term for his simulation elements, but in my opinion, those are integrated as default in most rpgs
>>3913763So every immersive sym just an RPG then?Thief is an RPG?
>>3913707Holy autism
>>3913770Thief is a stealth gameImsim is not a thing besides people extrapolating having "paths you can either push a box or lockpick to open"
>>3913704it's a hack n slash first person shooternot an rpg and immersive sims aren't real
whats with the brainlet's hyperfixation on categorization?
>>3913815A hack n slash where the melee option is worse than guns?
>>3913867“hack n slash” just means a combat focused game with little plot and irrelevant charactersYou’re being baited
>>3913779Thief was designed with the "problems, not puzzles" philosophy in mind where they are a lot of basic rules for everything that interact with each other, sometimes in unanticipated ways.Boodlines doesn't have any of this.
Bloodlines is not an 0451 game.
>>3913926Why not?
>>3914318Because you touch yourself at night
>>3914350That's projection.
>>3913704Well it isn't an immersive sim... like at all. So RPG it is (maybe FPS-RPG specifically? I don't fucking know.) Immersive sims are the old Looking Glass studios games from the 90s like Ultima Underworld, System Shock and Thief (and then other games that followed that design path after Looking Glass went broke like Deus Ex, Dishonored and Prey.) And yes, the name is shitty and everyone hates it (it should've really been Looking Glass-like or something I dunno) but it's the name that stuck so what can you do?VTMB isn't from that line - at all. It's actually a Troika game and continues on from Arcanum/Fallout but started their transition from Isometric to full, first person 3D (which then went nowhere cause Troika almost immediately went out of business after publishing it.) VTMB does somewhat superficially resemble Deus Ex but not its immersive sim elements, there's some confusion because people think the term 'immersive sim' was created to describe Deus Ex - it wasn't, it dates back to Ultima Underworld from 1992.And besides the real test of immersive sims tends to be (semi) realistic, systems-driven emergent behavior and VTMB doesn't really do that, at all. Pretty much every problem that isn't solved by shooting is a dialogue option that the devs pre-programmed OR a dialogue option being unlocked from a skill check which is an RPG mechanic AND pre-programmed by the devs and not emergent behavior from the game's systems interacting in unexpected ways
>>3914361You got 10 seconds to beat it before I add you to the list of Sabbat casualties.
>>3914367Have sex, incel.
>>3914374My bad, I forgot this was a bot site now.
>>3914318>Why not?1. Because the first keypad code of the game isn’t 0451.2. See anons thorough post here: >>3914366
>>3914398>Because the first keypad code of the game isn’t 0451.Only retarded troons care about that though.What the other anon said matters more.
>>3914429>>Because the first keypad code of the game isn’t 0451.>Only retarded troons care about that though.It’s funny that this was your response, given that I was making an argument by definition. A game that does not use the 0451 homage cannot be an 0451 homage game by definition, much as if I had said “a man cannot be a woman by definition”
>>3914491Oh okay so I guess Thief is not an immersive sym because it doesn't have keypads and 0451 in it as a code.
>>3914506The developers had to key in 0451 to come to work each day. also, thief 2 does use 0451 as a lock code
>>3913763they are default now, they weren't back in the early 00's when he coined the term.
>>3914548They're still not default given that Obsidian and inXile games don't have them. They still do things their way.
>>3913704Neither, could barely even be called a video game really.
There's not really a lot of roleplaying in it other than just picking your ending and deciding to do quests or not, and the depth to builds is basically pick only two between melee, guns, and disciplines if you want the game to be easy (unless you carefully manage your exp and you can get them all).I'd still call it an RPG, but it's not a strong example of one since there's a lot of other genre's elements at play. It's just a good game in general.
>>3915041>you go around talking to NPCs, killing people, and either doing the side-quest or skipping them until you finish the game, meta knowledge and cheese trivialize the combatIsn't that every RPG ever?
>>3915041>There's not really a lot of roleplaying in it other than just picking your ending and deciding to do quests or not, and the depth to builds is basically pick only two between melee, guns, and disciplines if you want the game to be easy (unless you carefully manage your exp and you can get them all).But enough about Deus Ex.
>>3914374>it hurt itself in its confusion
>>3913704Imsim/RPG hybrid.
fuck im installing it
>>3913704I'm ambivalent about the immersive sim term but I don't understand why people keep calling vtmb one. You can't move around shit to climb over walls or blow up doors or whatever so no it's not an 'immersive sim' - if anything, Arcanum has more of that kind of stuff, but it isn't first person I guess
>>3916642It's zoomers.
I just came here to say that Ventrue are the best clan and LaCroix has given so many people a poor idea of what they're actually like.
>>3916642>I don't understand why people keep calling vtmb one.It would be pure cope to make VTMB seem more than it isBut I don't see people calling it an immersive sim
>>3916909>But I don't see people calling it an immersive simI do a lot - just google 'immersive sim games' or whatever and it'd pop up too much
>>3916909I get it though, VtMB is special because of how many options you get but it's not really an imsim. Imsim is more like few options but strong interactability while VtMB is like no interactions, high options as everything is hard coded.
>>3916916Surely I can find a redditor calling any first person with RPG elements game an immersive sim, probably because it's an incredibly small "genre" and the "fan community" needs any game they can getLooking at wikipedia page on immersive sims not mentioning VTMB leads me to believe it's not a widely held view, and I can't bother to argue against a view that's held by a handful of people
>>3916931Alright? I've seen it a lot around here and elsewhere and so my whinge is directed that those people, but you haven't seen it, so I don't see what's there to discuss
>>3916926"Immersive sim" is a fake genre, a vapid marketing term that doesn't mean anything. Like "roguelite".
Larian DOS1/2 and BG3 are closer to imsim design philosophy than VTMB is. Just because VTMB is a first person action RPG doesn't make it an imsim.
>>3917000Oblivion is more of an immersive sim than vtmb but that doesn't fit the narrative
>>3917003I mean a lot of this shit about rigid RPG definitions can be traced down to butthurt over Oblivion and Skyrim so it probably has some place in the narrative
>>3917000BG3 is railroaded to all hell and frequently ignores or disrespects player choice, what are you talking about? Aside from being able to push people off cliffs. Everything’s hardcoded.
>>3917061Like Bethesda's and Tim Cain's RPGs, it has immersive sim elements without fully leaning into it.
>>3917183nta but I have increasing issues with the term since what a good rpg sounds like also sounds exactly like a good immersive sim. As you add more ways for your character to interact with the world, so a strong character being able to bash doors or move heavy objects, or a caster character using spells to change the properties of those objects, it gets hard to differentiate the twoI guess if anything an 'immersive sim' is how you describe a game that has those things but is actually less of an rpg. So that's why System Shock 1 counts, but 2 far less so
>>3917198I think you should stop thinking simulation as a genre.
>>3917244Obviously simulation itself isn't a genre and that's fine but almost everyone treats 'immersive sim' as a distinct genre
>>3913704Its not.
>>3917399Invisible War isn't great but it's far better as an immersive sim than Bioshock Infinite
Try not to take this too hard, redditors, but.. That super cool niche genre you can't define? It's actually just ARPG. Yes, the most popular and mainstream genre.>Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss is a 1992 action role-playing game>System Shock 2 is a 1999 action role-playing survival horror video game>Deus Ex is a 2000 action role-playing game>Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines is a 2004 action role-playing video game
>>3917512Ah yes, Thief: The Dark Project. My favorite action-RPG
>>3917544>Thief: The Dark Project is a 1998 stealth video game
>>3917550Yes? But it's not an ARPG, which is what you were (incorrectly) claiming immersive sims actually are. I mean, Thief's a stealth game and practically the DEFINITION of an immersive sim but it's got no RPG elements whatsoever. So you're just wrong.Oh and VTMB isn't an immersive sim, I thought we covered that already?
>>3917553>practically the DEFINITION of an immersive simSo what's the definition?
>>3917554Uh yeah, sure. Here it is. This was written sometime in late 1996-early 1997 by the Thief team. This is the long version though, I'll post the short version in a sec if you can't be bothered reading all that. I know it says the "Looking Glass' immersive REALITY philosophy" rather than 'immersive SIMULATION' but it's the same fucking thing.Also note they specifically talk about how the games they're making AREN'T crpgs. Plus I'm pretty sure Diablo had only JUST come out at this point so ARPGs weren't really a genre yet.
>>3917560Oh sorry I posted the short version first instead of the long version. Here's the long version if you want a more thorough definition. Again this is from Looking Glass themselves so, y'know, it's the actual, REAL definition rather than some nonsense.Turns out the real definition has been on the internet for almost 30 years, it's just that no one bothered to check Looking Glass's old website lol.
>>3917560>>3917561So if I had to put it concisely, this would be something like>allows solutions that are not specifically scripted for a given problemDoes this sound agreeable enough?
>>3917574Yeah sure, that's close enough. Systems-driven emergent gameplay is another way of putting it. But anyway, VTMB doesn't really do that, at all, hence why it's not an immersive sim.
>>3917574>>3917578Although it's worth going into HOW Looking Glass specifically tried to achieve this effect, because specificity is important. Plenty of other games have had emergent behavior in them (that's bound to happen in any computer program once it reaches a certain level of complexity) it's how Looking Glass designed for it that's important. So just to highlight one sentence from the Manifesto:>These systems include things like the physics simulation and player movement, combat, magic, and skills, and our "Act/React" concept of object interaction. So Act/React is this system Looking Glass designed for Thief that handles all its object interactions. It's basically what we'd call an Entity Component System these days a good decade before Entity Component Systems were a thing in games. It's also basically what the Chemistry Engine in the new Zelda games is but here it is 20 years earlier in a game that came out within the same month as Ocarina of Time. In fact as far as anyone can tell Thief is the very first game programmed with an object system structured like this so it's genuine pioneering work.
>>3917583So just for a quick example: you can blow open locked wooden doors in Thief:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lt128epD5GIThe doors don't blow up like in Deus Ex but it still works all the same. But hey, plenty of other games have had destructible doors before and after Thief, what makes Thief so special? Well it's because the way it works in Thief is that fire damages wood - and that applies to all fire sources (fire arrows, mines, fire elementals, torches etc. are all tagged with Source:FireStim) and all wooden surfaces will take damage from fire (every single Wood texture have the property Receptron:FireStim - TakeDamage in them as that's attached to the entire Wood textures class - WoodTex - so all wood textures inherit it.) However it order to take damage said wooden texture needs to be attached to an object with hit points (which is admittedly still kinda video-gamey but hey, 1998) like for example: a door. So in other words the reason why you can blow up locked wooden doors in Thief isn't because the designers decided to make that specific door breakable, it's because they started out by universally making fire burn wood. And it's not just doors, anything wooden in Thief will take damage from anything on fire (if said object has hit points/can be destroyed that is.)To be clear: there's no fire simulation going on in Thief where fire spreads or anything - it's a game from 1998, you wouldn't really see that kind of thing until Far Cry 2 a full decade later. But there is something of an actual simulation going on in Thief (somewhat - at least as best as they could do back in 1998.) And it's not just the 'fire burning wood' system, that's just one example. The entire object system is like this - every single object interaction works this way in Thief's world.Anyway that's the basic idea of what immersive simulation's supposed to be. Hope that helps.
>>3917583>>3917586It's really refreshing to see an effortpost that goes into this much detail. It's posts like these that keep me returning to this shithole, occasionally there's something like this around here.
>>3917591I swear I ranted about this very system before on here years ago. In fact iirc it was the exact same thread topic where OP was asking whether or not VTMB is an immersive sim or not. I feel like I'm in fucking groundhog day whenever I come to this place.Anyway yeah, that's what immersive simulation's ACTUALLY supposed to be. I get the confusion though - a lot of stuff written on the internet about immersive sims is just plain wrong. It's one of those situations where the Wikipedia article is crap cause it's citing shitty Youtube video essays and bad games journalism only for said Wikipedia article to then be used as a source for more bad Youtube essays and games journalism. I swear Wikipedia's rubbish. You have to do a bit of digging to find the REAL information on immersive sims on the internet but it is out there. Looking Glass were super open about what their design philosophy was and how they were implementing it on a technical level. You just have to dig for it on the wayback machine or on old UseNet posts back when Looking Glass still existed.
>>3917583>>3917586That's an interesting look under the hood. I think the important point is consistency in logic across all possible scenarios, right?
>>3917595Yeah like here. This is Marc "MAHK" LeBlanc, the dev from Looking Glass who created and implemented the Act/React system (in addition to Thief's entire object system) and who co-wrote that manifesto above, talking about how Thief is more simulation-like than something like Metal Gear Solid on Usenet back in 1998.See how that's a well-worded, detailed response by one of the game devs about why Thief's a simulation? There's tons of examples like this from the 90s where LGS devs just plainly explained wtf immersive simulation(/reality) was, it's just that it's now all rather hard to find because, y'know, good luck finding posts from the 90s using Google these days.
>>3917583>>3917586>>3917608I would almost have posted screens of the manifesto myself but here we go. I didn't really know about the stimuli system to this degree, these are some amazing insights. Thanks Anon.Been listening to the Looking Glass Interview series on youtube recently and found it a bit of a shame that the interviewer didn't really go into depth about audio with Eric Brosius, just asking stuff like "What was the hardest sound you made?" Would really have liked to hear something about how he actually made the sounds, what were some really weird things he used and such, sound designers always have wild and funny stories if you ask them. Guess I should have a look on ttlg. I'm also curious how the sound engine works.MAHK has a full System Shock Remake playthrough up on youtube where he's telling old stories from Looking Glass, how and why they did things, that's another more recent source of knowledge for me.
>>3918278>interviewer didn't really go into depth about audio with Eric Brosius, just asking stuff like "What was the hardest sound you made?"Uhhh probably tungsten carbide hitting diamond
no one cares. it's fun and we like playing it
>>3917586Are you the anon that proved that you can make Flappy Bird in Thief using the Act/React system?
>>3913704You just had this thread two days ago.
>>3921413It's the same thread. This board is s l o w
>>3921427>we have the same thread every day >it's literally the same thread because threads actually last many days outside /v/ Crazy
>>3921413take your meds unc
>>3922195
trying to get into modding so i can make the SM haven a bit nicer
>>3925486oh, you mean those crappy apartments, above the pawnshop?
>>3925486>make the SM haven a bit nicerWelcome to missing the point, newfriend
>>3913704both
Just want to say I've been playing VTMB2 for the first time, and the combat has hit peak awful zenith during the "As Above, So Below" mission, which I think took me around 20 attempts to finish. I have enjoyed the main quests so far, enjoyed Fabien, enjoyed the majority of the content, but fuck me this is the first time I've had to repeatedly attempt a level this many times simply because the internal systems of a game sucked so badly.
>>3936210>filtered by UnbirthedThere are multiple disciplines you can use to make dealing with them trivial.
>>3936217It was the final fight with them and the hunters that got me
>>3917399Nigger E.Y.E is not an immersive sim it's a 30 player sven coop like with rpg elements. Might as well start putting the elder scrolls and fallout games on this list.
>>3936210I am endlessly amused by lowest-common-denominator """writers""" to use legacy phrases like that without knowledge, context or even curiosity about them.>the internal systems of a game sucked so badlyhere is where I actually admire you, you did something right in life if you can afford to waste energy on such shitty gameplay
>>3938935"Immersive sim" is a fake genre that doesn't mean anything and is only useful as a marketing term. Like calling a game a "roguelite".
>>3939423Correct. "0451 games" is the genre label.
>>3939423It's a design philosophy and the people responsible for it have written a ton of words describing exactly what they were going for.
Neither. It's a vibe. You go into it thinking about your character sheet, do quests for xp... then never actually finish your playthrough cause the best part is dancing at the Asylum.Or chilling with VV at vesuvius.
>>3913815>immersive sims aren't realWhat is deus ex then
It's not whether this game is an rpg or immerisve sim. The real question is Jeanette or Velvet?
>>3942445Susan gives the impression she's stringing you along, but I can't rule out she's just genuine with an attitude that creates the same result.Jeanette causes problems on purposePick your poison I guess
>>3942073>What is deus ex then0451 game.
>>3913779Stealth is also not a genre, if immersive sim is not a genre then stealth is not either.Metal Gear and Dishonored and Hitman can be completed with full blown action and chaos, thus making stealth a gameplay choice rather than a genre.Genre is a broad thing. You haveRPGActionAction AdventurePuzzleStrategySimulationsSports (Racing and Football etc)Thats about it, like Horror for example is not a genre, its an element.Immersive sim is not a genre its a game design philosophy Stealth is just a gameplay style just like Shooting, just like platforming.
What if all genre designations for video games are just listing features that might have a strong or weak presence, or even be optional
>>3913704>immersive symlmao, the y is just the icing on the cake, 8/8
>>3935479the obligatory malk female playthrough, for reasons.... /money 1.4
>>3913704It's both, immersive sims often blur the lines between genres.
>>3913704I just finished this game the other day. By finished, I mean I activated god mode, gave myself infinite ammo, and slogged through the endless combat in the last 15-20% of the game.Up until the final act of the game, I was having more fun than I have had with a single-player game in a long time. I was immersed in the world thanks to the top notch art direction, sound design, and voice acting. The story was compelling, and there was a good mix of combat and non-combat encounters; enough of a mix for me to warrant actually putting points into social skills because the dialogue options were so rewarding. However, this game has the most disappointing final act of any game I have ever played. I know Activision forced Troika to push the game out, so I can't blame the developers. But man, I almost regret playing it in the first place, because the ending nearly ruined the whole game for me.
>>3913867>He doesn't play with mods that make vampires more resistant against gunfiregrim
>>3915343underrated reply, audible kek
>>3944714The last part of the game is basically just a stat check for you putting enough points in at least one of the combat stats, and is actually pretty easy if you bothered with combat defense/soak. The fights will get repetitive, but I never found it that bad to deal with.That's with the benefit of knowing how much to put in everything though. Going in blind it's a much easier mistake to make
>>3944720>He doesn't play with mods that replace Ming Xiao's temple of retardation with East LA and ten more hours of proper vampire fightsextremely grim
>>3944723I've done that, but I don't care for it. Also doesn't it only replace Hallowbrook? Clan Quest might be worth a try when you've already played the game a shit ton, but I think there's a few too many deal breakers (like the bulk of the actual clan quests) in it for me to do it again
>>3944725You know you had fun eating the other vampires and then being haunted by their personalities. That was peak vtm kino, especially as a Tremere.
>>3944729I could never bring myself to go full diablerist sabbat. It just seems kind of pointlessly cruel for stat bonuses you don't really need (not to mention the long term implications of the soul stuff)
>>3944731Believe it or not, you actually have a roll-off with the spirits to see how bad they manifest and mess you up when you eat them of which the game does not tell you the results. If you eat all of the named vampires in the game and lose enough rolls, you basically uncontrollably frenzy and may hard lock your game progress. PEAK VAMPIRE KINO.
>>3935479>Malk>More than 1 playthrough in my entire lifeno, i think not
>>3944714This!Last I played this game was about 4 years ago, and I remember everything from the first three locations, especially Santa Monica. I remember Jeanette, vv, nines, the thin bloods, mercurio...I do not remember the last act at all. I fought a werewolf, uh.... Chinese lady turns into cthulu.... um Lacroix at the end yeah, but what else happened? Nothing that stays with you.That's how bad the last act is. Mind you I been replaying this game off and on since like 2012. I'm sure I finished more than once, but wow... seriously, once you get to Chinatown, don't even bother finishing the game, cause it's not that great of an ending, patch or not
>>3917399What game is 4th in C tier?
>>3945461Can’t you read? It’s ark M
>>3945461
Beat the game today, what the fuck were they thinking with this boss???? Holy shit, the Warrens are nothing compared to her lol.
>>3947884Yeah this was insanely bad. Everyone likes to bitch about the sewers (which was my favorite part), and they completely ignore what is difficulty-wise the final boss. I have no clue how half the builds in the game can compete with her. Just all around horrendous and completely ruins this mess of a "game".
>>3947894i was a brujah so i blitzed her with celerity but holy shit she instantly snaps to you if you strafe her so you have to constantly move back and forth. Then I got punished for using my fists cuz they couldnt hit her shitty tentacle babies so I had to switch to a katana. I had to go through most of my blood supply. The fucking werewolf was easier to deal with lmao.
>>3947884It's been a long time since I played vanilla, so I don't know how much of the stats are under the influence of the unofficial patch or whatever, but it's such a jank fight. You basically either have decent skill with guns and it's trivial as fuck, or have this tedious as fuck fight of attrition. That's sort of true for bosses (and just the tougher enemies really) in general in that game though
>>3947924>You basically either have decent skill with guns and it's trivial as fuck, or have this tedious as fuck fight of attritionThe main trick with melee is to master directional swinging so you can effectively aim towards the tentacles.
>>3948208I always found the trick with melee is to just walk forward while attacking a certain way so you can just spam the first attack animation since it's significantly faster. I think if you do that too much on the spongy enemies it eventually has diminishing returns though
>>3947884>>3947894You're supposed to use the flamethrower against her, but the game is finicky so you'll just waste your ammo if you hold the button down. Short clicks with a full tank takes off half her health even if you're not putting points into ranged.
>>3948243I didnt find that on play playthrough or the katana, live and learn.
>>3948280Pretty sure you can buy it from Mercurio. You didn't rat him out, right?
>>3948379What do you get if you rat him out anyway? Other than badboy points?
>>3948384You get to kill him, I guess. He will be one of the blood hunters in the end
>>3948604That was my first build. In what way is it meant to be a "challenge"?
>>3913705>point & click action adventure with RPG elementsthat's Quest for Glory series.
>>3917399Clear Sky was a COD Immersive Sim.
>>3917405>IV>better immersive sim than Bioshock Infiniteno it's a dungeon crawler with sci fi elements.i hated it though
>>3948644I guess he'd miss out on some skill books for not leveling scholarship? Maybe a handful of exp points too. Not enough to really add challenge to the game
>>3948384When the precog on the beach says you can only ever trust the man on the couch and the lone wolf, believe her.
>>3948808Why? Dumb bitch told me "don't open it" which seems like terrible advice.
>>3948644Basically you miss out on persuasion checks, good endings for some missions like keeping both Jeanette and Therese alive, realize you wasted lots of points to max seduction (honestly useless after 4) and miss out on research skill books
Is there any reason to put points in any combat skill other than Brawl when you're playing Gangrel?And is there any point in leveling Animalism? Seems like the worst Discipline after Auspex to me, since it's basically Dominate/Dementia but worse in every way. So I guess you should also pick something like Insectoid or Anda Gangrel, to buff Protean and Fortitude at a significant cost or Fortitude only for basically free. Sucks to be female Gangrel though since they get the animalism buff history instead.
>>3950501Lol! People actually play anything but tremere?
>>3950557I’d never play Tremere. I played Toreador back when the game came out, and were I to replay it, it would be either Ventrue or maybe meme Brujah for a Christof LARP
>>3950557I don't like Tremere. Blood magic isn't really any better than just using guns and I don't like being forced to be a Cammy. They do have the nicest apartment though
>>3950557See >>3950647, I never played Tremere (except for a tiny bit) and I don't actually play Toreador either because they seem just like a weaker Ventrue with no downsides. If I want to play a talker character I just play Ventrue every time. They have a downside that has at least some impact on the gameplay, good disciplines (Presence is average usually but with Fortitude it's really good) and you can even use both Dominate and Persuasion if you want (or go more heavily on Dominate and skill Seduction instead for a change).But far as I can see, whenever someone plays Bloodlines nowadays they go Toreador > Ventrue > maybe Tremere. Trem is mostly popular as the first pick with asocial chudbuds who fall for the Thaumaturgy meme. I would place them maybe above Brujah in my Bloodlines "how interesting a clan is to play" ranking, but no one else. Gangrel at least have an inherent self imposed challenge if you want to use Protean since it sucks so bad, but at the same time you feel like you're missing out if you don't use it.Maybe I will try out the new Sabbat ending with my Gangrel, I had no clue they added that "recently". Maybe the low humanity will help get frenzy in combat.
>>3950696I think both celerity and fortitude are probably the best disciplines with neither having significant advantage over the other (at least in terms of the generic buff variety). Personally I think Celerity is better, but both Brujah and Toreador are lacking in stealth options (aspex can help a bit at least), so at least Ventrue has that with level 1 dominate. Also unlike every other buff in the game it's tedious as fuck to power up celerity while draining some enemy's blood. That might sound like a minor problem, but for those last few levels it really adds upEither way, other than playing a Malk or Nosferatu I think the only really meaningful difference is if you go full caster (dominate/animalism/blood magic) or just kill things normally.
>>3950557Playing different clans is the only way I can replay the game. Beaten it with every clan but Nosferatu. Honestly found Tremere to be not all that on the gameplay front. Thaum only got fun for me with the last two dots. God damn that Haven though. Ventrue is a favorite because it's the easiest to do "everything" with, save clan unique stuff. Can talk well, can fight well. Tanktrue has a certain joy to it in the late game. Hands down the most fun combat was Celerity + Auspex Gun Toreador. Even a poor man's Max Payne is fun. Malk's always a fun run though they struggle in the late game mandatory combats the most.
>>3950501> there any reason to put points in any combat skill other than Brawl when you're playing Gangrel?iirc brawl scaled with protean, right? i don't like to constantly have protean on, it's pretty expensive, so i also level up melee too, so i can hack and slash without worrying about blood management and only turn on protean for beefier enemies or large concentrations of them>And is there any point in leveling Animalismi think the level 2 skill was useful for stealth, the one where a flock of birbs distracts the target.inb4>gangrel>stealthit's good for the museum mission and mitnick's missions. and anyway what's the point of minmaxing this pisseasy game
>>3950797>i think the level 2 skill was useful for stealth, the one where a flock of birbs distracts the target.never mind, i should have just checked the wiki before spouting off like a retard, that's the level 1 skill. in that case, no i don't think there's much point to it. i think i maxed it out once and even the level 5 spell was underwhelming
>>3950797iirc melee has so much free training that you may as well pay for like the one or two dots you need to get all 5 even when focusing on brawl. Guns are in a similar boat
>>3950557my first guy was Tremere with Seduction + Fire Axe / Bush Hook. good times.>>3950669>Blood magic isn't really any better than just using guns and I don't like being forced to be a Cammywho's forcing you to do anything? have you tried just doing what you want?
>>3950920If I'm going to pick the blood mage clan, I'm not going to ignore blood magic. Doing what I want in this case is just picking something else, which I usually do
Realistically speaking, do you ever have trouble maintaining the Masquerade or your humanity? Feels like you have to try really hard to go low humanity. There should be a mod that makes it harder to maintain. In example, whenever you use your powers to Dominate/Dement/Present someone, you lose humanity equal to the rank of the discipline needed. 1 point of humanity lost per an innocent killed - even if they're security guards who attacked you first, if you're somewhere you shouldn't be. And whenever you lose a point of Masquerade, you get 1 + (Humanity max - Humanity current) hunters spawned on the map.Vampires need to suffah more. Suffah vampire.
>>3947894>Everyone likes to bitch about the sewers (which was my favorite part)t. real life Nosferatu
>>3950957>Realistically speaking, do you ever have trouble maintaining the Masquerade or your humanity?Oy vey
>>3950957>Realistically speaking, do you ever have trouble maintaining the Masquerade or your humanity?I've only ever seen female VTuber players having trouble with that. It's incredible to see how someone can fuck up so hard in such a simple and easy game.
>>3950957You have to go out of your way to lose humanity, kill innocent people when feeding, killing random civilians. To maintain the masquerade all you have to do is just not use your powers on the streets. Nosferatu also get a lot of leeway when it comes to how close you can get to a person before they notice you're weird, it's not even necessary to use the sewers in most cases.
>>3951006Yeah I restarted my Gangrel run and dropped all social skills (except for a bit of Intimidation and 1 point in Scholarship for free book XP) and I started killing everyone and it's really hard.Hard because>Protean really, really sucksI can punch people to death with Brawl 3 faster than Brawl 3 + Protean on because of the animation change.>Still barely any humanity lost.Was mean to Mercurio, killed him, no Humanity lost. Was mean to the thin blood who wanted to find the head vampire, told him he's a disgrace to our kind, no humanity lost. Made fun of the stuttering guy, no humanity lost. Threatened E for 50 bucks, he attacked me when I doubled down, killed them all, no humanity lost. Sucked off the cop on the pier, the cops behind the inaccessible crime scene saw, no humanity lost and no masquerade violation, somehow.Guess I'll just stick with sucking people (who don't shoot at me) dry. The Sabbat ending had better not be a bunch of "Wesp5's friend doing his best voice acting performance".
Does anyone have the spreadsheet that shows all the usages of Seduction/Intimidation/Persuasion/Haggle/Disciplines in dialogue?
>>3951098I don't, but the short version is persuasion up to 9 is all that matters (so to get the most out of skill books that would mean 5 scholarship, 3/4 charisma depending on if you get that one magic item). I think the only time you can get a better outcome with dominate is that Russian guy in the hotel. There is an edge case for dementation since some persuasion dialogue is locked out for Malks Intimidate is genuinely bad and the only good check I remember with it is getting some money when extorting the doctor. Maybe something alternative end for the ghouls on the beach too idkSeduction is only good for extra lines and some blood dolls for the most part, but there's a handful of times you can use it instead of persuasion. Also depends on your sexI only remember haggle coming up twice, but it's not like I've leveled it up to check since it's all money saving. I think you can get some extra money out of Fat Larry and get the magazine for the female Nosferatu cheaper. If you're leveling it, I would assume it's more for the sake of a really money inefficient playstyle. There's also like two hidden checks for inspection (Knox for that early sidequest, and talking to the professor much later) that aren't really worth itI've played this game too much
>>3951178So, realistically speaking, even if you play Tremé or Venture, leveling Dominate is not really worth it. Double so for the former, since they have damage spells on top of instakills in their "main selling point" discipline. And for the latter, sure it's funny to have people instakill themselves with Suicide/Mass Suicide but it only works on N-words (ningen). Might be even double fucked with the unofficial patch plus version, I'm pretty sure whenever I saw Dominate I also saw Presence prompts.
still don't get why every vtmb thread boils down to discussing what skills are "worth it"am i the only one picking whatever clan/skills/path without being obsessed with doing the optimal or correct thing?
>>3951678Roleplaying? In a roleplaying game? Sir, this is /vrpg/, you must have clicked on the wrong board.
>>3951678>>3951691>Roleplaying is when you pick suboptimal skills and are happy that you never got to use them.Let me guess, you also "play a Paladin" in Skyrim, and you only do "paladin-like" things like an "experienced roleplayer".I know that you probably can't imagine an apple in your head, but hypothetically, imagine that you could imagine things. And then imagine if you played a game of Dungeons & Dragons, 5th edition, with Critical Role subclasses (all the good good basically) and you tagged Insight, Athletics and Investigation. Your DM makes it obvious whether someone's lying or not by doing funny voice acting when a character lies. Whenever you want to roll Athletics, you are told to roll Acrobatics instead. Every time Investigation seems appropriate according to the rules of the book, you use your Passive Perception [PP!].>in before rollplaying is the next cope Imagine if there was a D&D 5th edition like system which didn't have dice rolls or randomness and all of the above applied.
>>3951745you could just not play a dogshit system like 5e that makes it so your wizard is better with religious topics than your cleric or paladin.
>>3951750>play a dumb cleric who never interested himself in religious customs and rituals>it's the system's fault that a smart [any class] knows more about foreign cults than you doYou're supposed to role-play in role-playing games
>>3951760>>play a dumb cleric who never interested himself in religious customs and ritualsyou mean because the game inorganically pushes you toward that direction by making WIS, STR, and CON as your primary attributes.>>it's the system's fault that a smart [any class] knows more about foreign cults than you doyes, it doesn't make sense that someone immersed in theology and the affairs of the divine somehow doesn't know anything about the existence of other gods and their cults (despite being indoctrinated into one himself).>You're supposed to role-play in role-playing gamescope
>>3951750>you could just not play a dogshit system like 5eThe absolute state of no-apples on this guy's mind. It gives me goosebumps. Reminds me of elementary school when some of the... specialer kids... would just loudly breathe and quietly mouth each letter of a word before pronouncing the word itself (or attempting to pronounce it).
>>3951773but enough about 5e players.
>>3951772>WIS, STR, and CON as your primary attributes>minmaxing a cleric for STR instead of picking an average or above average INT is the game's faultImagine being too stupid for 5e.
>>3951779>>minmaxing a clericstopped reading there. can't believe I'm talking to a retard who rolls a cleric that doesn't meet the bare minimum of his character's attributes and think its somehow an argument in favor of the system itself.
>>3951750>you could just not play a dogshit system like 5e that makes it so your wizard is better with religious topics than your cleric or paladin.That's not the case only in 5e. Knowledge skills are usually Intelligence-based and Wizards get them as class skills, plus their huge INT bonus.
>>3951782>That's not the case only in 5e. it's 100% a "5e thing" for clerics to be bad at religion and druids to not understand nature. it's a problem with representing the actual class fantasy baked into the system itself.>Knowledge skills are usually Intelligence-based and Wizards get them as class skills, plus their huge INT bonus.and INT is useless on everyone save for proficiency bonuses in the respective skills, so the issue of 5e's pro-SAD design is only exacerbated
>>3951785NTA but it was, give or take, the same in 3rd ed.
>>3951785>it's 100% a "5e thing" for clerics to be bad at religion and druids to not understand natureIn 4E nobody understood nature, or bears
>>3951775>Applelet thought this was an insult towards me because I used it for a hypothetical example"You want me to imagine an apple? Heh... I... HATE apples. When mom peels and cuts apples for me, saying I need more fruit in my gamer diet... I don't eat them. How you like THEM APPLES? hmm?"^This you.
>>3913704Proof Bloodlines is an "imsym" : none of y'all Timmies played MALE BRUJAH cause he looks like a strong & fierce Black man. Even tho the first game told y'alls that the Bruj are shonen MC tier.
>>3951829>only black PC is from the tardrage clan whose disciplines and clan weakness encourage chimping out and smashing things the second you encounter any inconvenienceWhat did Troika mean by that?Male Brujah was my first character and is still my second favourite to play behind male Ventrue
>>3951829This is why I never play male brujah despite thinking it's better than toreador. Will stock to the red haired fuckboy for seduction, thank you
>male toreadorgay>putting any points in pink talk as a make characterliterally gay. even if you don't pick "Homosexual", the game let's you use seduction on the tutorial cop & the SM beach house guard outside, gaaaay
>>3951829I played Male Gangrel when the game came out. Because the teenage me thought claws = awesome, and he looked like a dangerous dude you could meet in the streets, so that was cool too and fit the vibe perfectly.Then I picked Female Tremere on my replay around 10 years ago to check out the blood magic and the exclusive haven, and it's a meta clan so it's nice to be OP. Haven't played since. One of those days, probably when Wesp removes all the donut steel garbage he's added since.
>>3951888Never said my male toreador seduces guys. Only Jeanette and VV.>>3951928Same. Stopped playing after I beat the game as tremere. No reason to replay when you experience the best powers offered. Maybe malk, but eh.
>>3951888>"Homosexual", the game let's you use seduction on the tutorial copthat's plus patch stuff>the SM beach house guard outside, gaaaaythe game doesn't force you to do that. there's nothing stopping you from seducing just women. sounds like a (You) problem.
>>3951745Powergaming in Bloodlines is ridiculous, it's not even particularly rewarding. It's funny how you accuse other people of not having imagination when you can't conceive of playing a game without looking up spoilers and guides to have a "perfect" experience.
>>3951745>Let me guess, you also "play a Paladin" in Skyrim, and you only do "paladin-like" thingsThis, but literally every game
>>3952048>strawmanning & dodging because he cannot defeat the argument>>3951745>Whenever you want to roll Athletics, you are told to roll Acrobatics instead. Every time Investigation seems appropriate according to the rules of the book, you use your Passive Perception [PP!].This has nothing to do with "powergaming" you subhuman (literal subhuman, the definition of a subhuman - you cannot imagine an apple, you're not human to me). Checking whether skills offered by the game have any actual uses (aka whether it's "worth it" to put points in them, which you/your kin doubted here >>3951678) is not powergaming. It's literally asking if the game allows you to roleplay properly.The player invests points into something on his character sheet. (This represents the choices made by the player on behalf of the character, representing the character's history.)The player should get something of value out of the investment in his character sheet. (This represents acknowledgement of the character's life choices/history.)The game barely letting you get anything out of Intimidation (other skills are usable whenever it is usable in all but one instance, and Intimidation is only usable a fraction of the time, and even when you use it you get nothing out of it in some of the already few cases where it is applicable) is bad roleplaying offered by the game (the DM). In Bloodlines's case it is not due to lack of creativity, but due to lack of money/time, unlike other "roleplaying" games that you specifically like a lot and consider RPGs (i.e. Bethesda games). But it is still a fault of the game design. It would be like playing Nosferatu and suffering barely any consequences for being fuck ugly in the street even though it is supposed to be a punishing curse that makes you limited to sneaking around in the sewers - something that the game barely does in reality, but at least they put a lot more effort into the ugly detection mechanic.
>>3951928>I played Male Gangrel when the game came out. Because the teenage me thought claws = awesome, and he looked like a dangerous dude you could meet in the streets, so that was cool too and fit the vibe perfectly.So? Male Gangrel is obviously a whiteboy imitating Black culture with the hairstyle. Probably some stoner Timmy.
>>3952186It was the early 2000s. White boy with dreads was a vibe then. Looks like he may have been a skaterboy who smoked weed with the beach boys before becoming gangrel
>>3952158>In Bloodlines's case it is not due to lack of creativity, but due to lack of money/time, unlike other "roleplaying" games that you specifically likeGave me a good laugh, well done lol
>>3915343deus ex has far less that that
Why everyone says Ming Xiaomi is hard? I beat her easily in 2007 when i played the game last
>>3951098It would be super easy to make a spreadsheet like that because in the unofficial patch folder you can see all the requirements for dialog options and even race requirements and what flags they change and what they do to the npc's face. All in a readable format. Some simple search through files script could do it, very easy for a high skill programmer like me. But I don't have Excel installed, so I can't do it, zannen datta na
>>3952230In a game with "character building" and generally a few ways to tackle obstacles, there is no strategy other than hope you had enough bloodbags or you're softlocked.
>>3952230Her difficulty is pretty radically tied to which of the three ways to fight shit you use
>>3952239>Seduction 9 is the highest & needs to be used for... ... ... ...making Chunk run away...or run away and be seduced... in the LaCroix tower in endgame.Why does he have two versions of it? They come from two different chunk dialogue files
>>3952243Can you seduce him away from the art gallery as well? I remember there being a shit ton of ways to do that part. That's the only thing I can think of off the top of my head anyway
>>3952239>Brujah 5 (the most significant being that you can "blame the Beast" when LaCroix doesn't like you and you come to apologize, and Damsel says one line differently in response to the same generic player line when she says Nines had to save you again)>Gangrel 5 (Beckett lines, only special line is that you don't need persuasion to get the bribe in the SM diner because you can hear rats in the walls for free)>Malkavian 150>Nosferatu 111>Toreador 31>Tremere 23>Ventrue 30
>>3952249We can't stop winning, malkbros!
>>3951888>install wesp5's gay fanfiction mod>blame the game
>>3952158>Checking whether skills offered by the game have any actual usesEvery skill in Bloodlines has an in-game use. Some skills are obviously more useful than others, you can tell at a glance that a combat or a social skill is going to be far more useful than the "items will have a bigger sparkling glow so you'll be able to see them better" but even that has its use for the kind of person who doesn't want to scrounge around every location looking for stuff to pick up like a senior citizen looking for fallen change at the mall.>The game barely letting you get anything out of Intimidation (other skills are usable whenever it is usable in all but one instance, and Intimidation is only usable a fraction of the time, and even when you use it you get nothing out of it in some of the already few cases where it is applicable) is bad roleplaying offered by the game (the DM). Intimidation has its uses, it just doesn't have as many uses as persuasion. You choose it if you're playing a tough guy who likes to intimidate others and just roll with it if you can't "win" every conversation that way.>In Bloodlines's case it is not due to lack of creativity, but due to lack of money/time, unlike other "roleplaying" games that you specifically like a lot and consider RPGsThe Troika guys are not Josh Sawyer or Styg. Tim Cain's said that "perfect" balance was never a design goal for any of their games, that their idea for them is that you'd create a character concept and then role play that. That's why their games are so easy to break, they didn't make them with "playing to win" in mind.
>>3952380>their idea for them is that you'd create a character concept and then role play that. That's why their games are so easy to break, they didn't make them with "playing to win" in mind.It’s sad that this even needs to be said.
>>3952380>The Troika guys are not Josh Sawyer or StygYeah they have talent.
>>3952230She's easy if you have a flamethrower or have spec'd into guns or you're a Tremere with blood boil or a Gangrel with war form or Brujah/ Nosferatu with maxed out potence. Without the flamethrower and/or a good build, it's going to be a pain, especially if you don't have any good guns at all. She has 1400 HP and the clones she spawns from her tentacles have 325 HP. Non-potence/protean enhanced melee attacks will do 50 damage at most, so it takes a lot of swings to bring her down.
>>3952380>The Troika guys are not Josh Sawyer or Styg. Tim Cain's said that "perfect" balanceIt's hilarious how you try to pull this shit as if I haven't watched every Tim Cain video, you little shit. First of all, Tim Cain explicitly said (and, delusionally, continues to say) that it was part of the Fallout DESIGN BIBLE to have all skills usable as much as possible and maybe in one video he admitted that there wasn't enough time to playtest Big Guns and Energy Weapons because playtesters disproportionately picked other skills. He also wanted to have every main quest completeable with just talking, sneaking or combat. He did throw shade at Fallout 2 and it's dogshit starting areas and the tutorial, though the tutorial was forced onto the devs late in development. He proudly says "look! if you get unarmed tagged you get unarmed weapons from start!" (and a few other weapon skills also work like that). He also said (without mentioning the game) that Underrail is cringe and shit because it railroads you completely for the majority of the game, which is based, because Underrail is cringe and shit. I don't know, or care, if the skills are usable enough there, because it doesn't have any freedom of choice otherwise, you have to keep sucking off the "in Serbia, we worship aliens [who look like Jews]" faction.Tim Cain had absolutely nothing to do with the design of Bloodlines. He worked on ToEE's design/writing/programming and then only joined the Bloodlines team late to work on the boss fights (scripting and AI).>That's why their games are so easy to break"They" (Bloodlines and Arcanum) are "easy to break" because they couldn't afford enough QA. ToEE was the most Tim Cain in control and they went out of their way to make all classes viable and a "near perfect" implementation of 3.5 (according to them). Fallout (the first game) was also comparatively balanced, compared to 2 & 3.>Every skill in Bloodlines has an in-game use.Intimidation's use is $100. One time 100$.
>>3952380>you can tell at a glance that a combat or a social skill is going to be far more usefulJust because that's how your powergamer mind sees it doesn't mean everyone else does. My girlfriend tried to play the game true to the tabletop game, as she was familiar with the rules of the source material and she got absolutely FELTED by how many of the skills she invested in were completely useless or redundant.Going back to the 5E example (partially to check if you're an applelet), a DM who spends the majority of the game asking for Stealth, Perception and... probably Athletics actually, that's more popular than Acrobatics, and for social checks you see a occasional Persuasion check to validate some player's heckin' voice actor delivery is a shit DM doing the bottom of the barrel DMing. Now, of course, Bloodlines wanted to be popular, so it focused disproportionately on having as many instances of the most popular skills. But in return it created a void where all the other skills provide just a fake choice.>I can choose to focus on one of the likely popular skills and get a lot of contentor>I can choose on these slightly more exotic, but perhaps useful(?) ones and get nothing of valueand to be honest, the fact that Seduction and especially Intimidation get the short end of the stick is something that could even be classified as "thought this would be popular, it barely does anything". At least Seduction let's you fuck the titular sex bait earlier - but the lack of it doesn't look you out of it. But Intimidation? Hey I am a big bad vampire who makes how to know a scowling face. Where are the reactions? So much wasted potential. And the disciplines, being just "Persuasion with a blood cost" 90% of the time. I don't know if Presence was ever supposed to be useful in dialogues, since the patch added it, but if it's usable in the rules it should've worked but differently to Domination. I bet Auspex is supposed to let you do way more in the book too.
>Intimidation has its uses, it just doesn't have as many uses as persuasion. You choose it if you're playing a tough guy who likes to intimidate others and just roll with it if you can't "win" every conversation that way.More cope. I chose it because I am intimidating. Where are the instances of actually intimidating people? Why is it at most a different way to get the same reward as via Persuasion? With one rare check where I can ask for extra money from a magical person doctor, who isn't even intimidated afterwards, he just tells you the exact shit as if he wasn't intimidated?You throw all your big names around, but you can bet your ass that Mitsoda and co would say that they wanted to do the things I say but they couldn't afford to. And Tim Cain wanted to do the things I say in the games he produced & programmed for (Arcanum, Fallout, ToEE) and he and his team were more successful. You will never find them making these pathetic excuses "um excuse me chudbud, you picked a skill [we didn't have time/money to implement properly into the game]? well you got to pick it sometimes, so you lose".>>3952384By the way, Tim Cain basically said that Josh Sawyer (without naming him, to not offend other designers he worked with) was one of the greatest game designers he ever worked with because he would whip out all of his spreadsheets to justify the distribution of weapons/skill checks/etc and even to justify what level of investment they should require for what area.The Serb probably didn't do that, he just tried to imitate other RPGs and created an actual bad-GUI spreadsheet in his pretend-Fallout-but-actually-failed-Fallout-2 and failed Deus Ex.But of course, Tim is not the perfect arbiter of RPGs either. He still does the doublethink anti-roleplaying/midwit definition of role-playing.>THIS GUY USED ONLY CRATES TO BEAT BALDUR'S GATE 3? THIS IS WHAT ROLEPLAY IS ALL ABOUT!!!
>>3952480>as if I haven't watched every Tim Cain videoStopped reading here
>>3952484Cope. I watched all of his videos and Sawyer's too because I wanted to know that I am the strongest roleplayer. Just like Sasuke's brother killed every Uchiha to prove he is the strongest. I am roleplaying as Sasuke's brother now, according to >>3952383>>3952380
>>3952482I AM PLAYING BALDUR'S GATE 3 (TM) THE CRITICALLY-ACCLAIMED GAME OF THE YEAR BY LARIAN (R)IT HAS RAISED THE BAR FOR CRPGS BY INCLUDING IMMERSIVE SIM DESIGN PHILOSOPHY ELEMENTS SUCH AS ENVIRONMENTAL INTERACTIONS AND EXTREME LEVELS OF REACTIVITY TO PLAYER CHOICES AND ACTIONSLOOK, A DRAGON! THANKFULLY I HAVE HOARDED EVERY SINGLE EXPLOSIVE BARREL IN THE PROLOGUE AND ALL OF ACT 1THANKS TO MY CREATIVE PROBLEM SOLVING, I WILL CLEVERLY DEFEAT THIS FOE AND BE REWARDED FROM MY CUNNING AND THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOXJust kidding, it has plot armor and invincibly flies away because the DM won't let me go off the rails.
its an immersive rpglite action adventure
You know what really sucks? Skill books and teachers. They're not mandatory but do save a crapton of XP and if you want to min-max your need to plan around them. Also another thing that makes roleplaying a "mistake". Do you want your character not to be a computer illiterate? Well, you just wasted your precious skill points.
>>3952612Don't know what you mean by teachers, but skill books having a min requirement is only retarded because you just find them in random locations that you can miss. They should've been available from shops (as special offers), maybe have the books on offer would be locked behind quests with an alternative way to unlock them right away via haggle. Like in SM you get it if Arthur or Mercurio tell you about Trip, in Downtown if you do Larry's quest, or you can get past a haggle check to get them immediately. It adds another layer to the haggling skill where it not only lets you pay for things potentially earlier because they're cheaper but also potentially earlier because you don't have to do the quest first.The implementation in Bloodlines as is combines the worst of all worlds, it only gets away with it because Scholarship raises Persuasion too.
>>3952629So basically, the ideal implementation that combines the best of all worlds is>Books are available from shopkeepers, based on appropriate association, but some won't be willing to sell them to you right away (quest first, or pass haggle check)>Min Stat Requirement + Max Stat Requirement is known to the player in-game as part of the book description before they buy itit is also possible to make them punishingly pricey luxury goods but that would go too heavy on needing Research + Haggle to fully utilize their potential. That would be an acceptable scenario if Research maybe had another function, then it could also be detached from "the thing you get for free when raising Persuasion".
>>3952629>Don't know what you mean by teachersThe extra skills you get from quests. The wiki calls it "teachers" so I went with it. It's another mandatory thing if you want to min-max and also sucks balls, like "yeah stick with firearms 3 until you do Romero's quest".Again, game is easy enough so you don't really need to metagame every single XP but the implementation is awful and punishes roleplaying.
>>3952612Free skills in general tend to create a specific path where someone gets the most out of everything. It's bad for roleplaying, but if you actually figure it out yourself it's just the game within the game and kind of fun in its own way
>>3952480>First of all, Tim Cain explicitly said (and, delusionally, continues to say) that it was part of the Fallout DESIGN BIBLE to have all skills usable as much as possible and maybe in one video he admitted that there wasn't enough time to playtest Big Guns and Energy Weapons because playtesters disproportionately picked other skills.Either your memory or his is wrong. Another dev who worked on Fallout explained their rationale for it years ago. All skills get some use, yes, usable at all times equally throughout the entire game? No.>"They" (Bloodlines and Arcanum) are "easy to break" because they couldn't afford enough QA.The Outer Worlds had plenty of QA and is also easy to break.>>3952482>You will never find them making these pathetic excuses "um excuse me chudbud, you picked a skill [we didn't have time/money to implement properly into the game]? well you got to pick it sometimes, so you lose".Pic related man.
>>3952818>each weapon skill group had its own rewards>>3952480>it was part of the Fallout DESIGN BIBLE to have all skills usable as much as possible and maybe in one video he admitted that there wasn't enough time to playtest Big Guns and Energy Weapons because playtesters disproportionately picked other skills.>wasn't enough time to playtest Big Guns and Energy Weapons because playtesters disproportionately picked other skills.>>3952818>My stock testing character was an Unarmed/Speech/Science build(he is the guy who designed ZAX and Science is used to disable robots in The Glow)[he then says that because he tested this, Unarmed got better rewards to appease him][he then makes excuses pretending that Unarmed had it hard, even though Unarmed is the second best weapon skill in Fallout after Small Guns, arguably even better with the Fast Shot bug]>Big Guns or Energy Weapons, you were taking the trade-offIf you picked Big Guns or Energy Weapons you weren't taking a trade-off, you were just as viable in combat as if you tagged Lock-picking, Gambling and Outdoorsman - arguably these skills would even let you get to the place where you can get more expensive weapons and companions without combat.>there was still some debate whether all builds should be equally viableIrrelevant, Tim referred to specific game design documents. That's what makes Tim different than all of these other coping has beens. Tim is a coping has been but he has his notes black on white and there is no reason to doubt the existence of such document (maybe it's even online somewhere) because Planescape Torment's design bible is possible to find online.https://rpgwatch.com/files/Files/00-0208/Torment_Vision_Statement_1997.pdf(Not to be confused with Avellone's "Fallout Bible").TL;DR>You got felted by bringing up Tim Cain, you had no receipts, I did.>You bring in a post of someone who had comparatively minor involvement.>His post confirm everything I said instead.Your next move?
>>3913704CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING>It is 2032>Arcanum Reforged Edition by Microsoft was a huge hit>You were hired to be the Producer-san on the remaster of Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines.>Hard deadline for the release is Christmas 2034, 30 year anniversary.What do you do?Keep the voice acting as is, so you can't have any new lines for the main characters? Recreate some characters with additional voice acting required? Redo all the voice work? Remove the voice acting feature and get fired immediately? Add non voiced lines?How do you add content to the popular early locations?Do you completely rework the Sewers and Chinatown?Do you hire a cheap Polish team to turn into an immersive walking symulator?Do you improve the graphics? Do you add mod support so modders can add source_filmmaker sex scenes into your immersive symulator?Do you try to virtue signal to the soijacks who like the cringy emo gay roleplaying game? Do you improve the shooting part instead?How about the stealth? Which game would you rip off to make the stealth good?
>>3952985>If you picked Big Guns or Energy Weapons you weren't taking a trade-off, you were just as viable in combat as if you tagged Lock-picking, Gambling and OutdoorsmanBig guns or energy weapons is a trade off in the most essential form: you’re investing in something that won’t be immediately useful, but will be very useful in time. This element of time preference is literally the foundation of civilization, and anyone with a fully developed prefrontal cortex understands it.The strawman you’re attacking is “but what if I invested ONLY in big guns or energy weapons, with no other combat skills, and I didn’t read the manual because I’m a zoomer and I don’t know what a manual is”. A reasonable and prudent player (as one was expected to be in those days) might invest a moderate amount of points in early game weapon skills, such as melee or small guns, and then save the bulk of their points for more powerful skills that come online in the midgame, like big guns and energy weapons. Perfectly viable.>TimOh. You’ve developed a parasocial relationship with someone you don’t know after watching their YouTube videos. I’m sorry.
>>3953097>Oh. You’ve developed a parasocial relationship with someone you don’t know after watching their YouTube videos. I’m sorry.Worse, it's a schizophrenic who, as you've already identified, is a zoomer larping as a boomer despite repeatedly getting basic details about the game wrong.
>>3953097>Big guns or energy weapons is a trade off in the most essential formNo it isn't, you dumb cunt. Big Guns suck dick in Fallout compared to Small Guns from start (where they don't even exist) to middle (when you can get Flamers or Rocket Launchers for a lot of money at the same time you can get some of the best Small Guns) and end game (.223 Pistol + Sniper Rifle crit build beats burst firing Minigun anytime). They only get overpowered in Fallout 2. And Energy Weapons are even more inaccessible, the earliest you can get are Laser Pistols/Rifles at a time when you have all the end game Small Guns available already. All the "umm totally viable vibing roleplay" cucks pretending otherwise are just relying on meta knowledge about grinding encounters for the Alien Blaster or metaplaying around the Turbo Plasma Rifle.So you can shove your>but will be very useful in time.up your metagaming powergaming ass. Big Guns get never useful at all, and Energy Weapons only in the ultra late game.And this is a product of nobody playing with Big Guns at all (they probably didn't like the clicking and inventory management) which is why it has literally 3 (three) weapons (meanwhile there are four different kinds of grenades, and throwing knives are technically a viable budget range option from start) and Energy Weapons probably only being added (in terms of weapon placement) near the deadline.>The strawman you’re attacking is “but what if I invested ONLY in big guns or energy weapons,No, I am not attacking a strawman, you piece of shit, I am attacking the Jesse Heinig post that you tried to use as your shield.>Oh. You’ve developed a parasocial relationship with someone you don’t know after watching their YouTube videos. I’m sorry.Actual strawmanning. You are now begging me to move the goalpost to defend Tim evene though I said he is a subhuman himself>>3952482>>THIS GUY USED ONLY CRATES TO BEAT BALDUR'S GATE 3? THIS IS WHAT ROLEPLAY IS ALL ABOUT!!!
>>3953242Lol, lmao even
>>3953117>as you've already identifiedYes yes, now it's the usual>hehe, I am a different anonymous poster who came here to agree with you gentleman, you are so so right]that magically appears in a thread to agree with you 20 minutes after you make a post in a thread that had until then 3 posts separated by 12/6 hours.>>3953245Concession accepted. Must suck to get CRUSHED by the GOD OF ROLEPLAYING (=me) every single time, huh.
Also, I predict the shitposter's next move will be continuous screeching about>"you didn't metagame? that means you didn't play Fallout right, which means you are a zoomer" (the zoomer obsession being his projection because he's insecure about his own age)because that's all he can do, goalpost move and goalpost move.His original goal was to "deeebuuunk" that it's a desirable thing in an RPG to have all skills useful. Meanwhile, in reality>all skills being useful was a design goal of Fallout>Tim Cain thinks he accomplished this in Fallout (he didn't)>Troika actually got better at it over time, even though they never tested their games because they never had enough time to finish their games properly, Arcanum wasn't even properly Beta tested and Bloodlines couldn't even be called Beta readyand pretty much every old school RPG developer, including Tim, praises Sawyer as if he was a god of design for what he accomplished in the games where he was the system designer.You won't find a single Bloodlines dev who will be like>"oh yes, we really wanted to have [discipline name] be useless and we intentionally made Intimidate worth $100 to teach a moral lesson about acting mean"
You’re that one retard who already shit up 2-3 threads like this, aren’t you. Extremely recognizable
>calls me a schizo>immediately starts schizoposting and accusing me of being his Thread Personality[tm]/nemesisI have posted maybe in two Bloodlines threads and I guess I've seen you have your schizoposting sprees there too but I never read them or contributed to them.
>>3913704>>3913770>>3914506>>3951829>>3953088Is this supposed to be funny? Is this a le meme?
>>3944725>Clan Quest might be worth a try when you've already played the game a shit tonIs that the one that adds a Sabbat area that's the size of all other hubs combined while being EMPTY AS FUCK? Because that place sucked so much ass I immediately reloaded back to Hallowbrook and dipped out of a Sabbat run.
>>3953297I mostly agree. I'd put a lot of emphasis on the "when you already played the game a shit ton" part. If it wasn't a 20 year game with a strong fanbase I wouldn't assume the sort of level needed to reach that actually exists
>>3917586good post, concise
>>3950696My playthroughs since 2006 when I first played the game have been Gangrel -- Tremere -- Malk -- Nosferatu. As expected the most fun was Malk.
>>3951678this is a thread for people who have finished the game dozens of times and have discussed all the other aspects of it to death, minmaxxing is the only thing left to talk about without it devolving into name-calling bullshit although the immsim knower anon weighing in with Looking Glass info made the thread worth coming to
>>3952487you do know sasuke's brother dies like a bitch though right? And he doesn't even save Sasuke, even in the very long term since he's still literally a tree in the sequel.
>>3953242>Big Guns suck dick in Fallout compared to Small Guns from start (where they don't even exist) to middle (when you can get Flamers or Rocket Launchers for a lot of money at the same time you can get some of the best Small Guns) and end game (.223 Pistol + Sniper Rifle crit build beats burst firing Minigun anytime)>All the "umm totally viable vibing roleplay" cucks pretending otherwise are just relying on meta knowledge about grinding encounters>So you can shove your 'but will be very useful in time' up your metagaming powergaming ass. Big Guns get never useful at allIt's truly impressive that you've managed to simultaneously argue that a skill isn't useful because you can't use it at the start of the game, and also that it's inferior because another skill is more optimal and more powerful, but also that anyone who says they like using it because they think it's cool is lying, and that they're secretly choosing to use the sub-optimal inferior skill because they're actually powergaming munchkin min-maxers.I would question whether you are merely fucking stupid, or simply dishonest and projecting, but from previous encounters with you, I know that it is the latter.
>>3954418>but also that anyone who says they like using it because they think it's cool is lyingDesperate strawmanning, as expected from the resident jamboy shitposter.>and that they're secretly choosing to use the sub-optimal inferior skill because they're actually powergaming munchkin min-maxers.And this is again completely in line with the first two statements. Energy Weapons do become the best weapon in the original Fallout at the very end of the game. That's why, like the subhuman piece of shit you are, you try to intentionally broaden my the second statement to big guns.I said>All the "umm totally viable vibing roleplay" cucks pretending otherwise are just relying on meta knowledge about grinding encounters for the Alien Blaster or metaplaying around the Turbo Plasma Rifle.Energy Weapons have some appeal to powergaming munchkin min-maxers, who use their metagaming knowledge to tag Energy Weapons knowing one of them is better than Small Guns (the early ones aren't.Big Guns are worthless trash start to finish.And just as I predicted>>3953249>Also, I predict the shitposter's next move will be continuous screeching about>>"you didn't metagame? that means you didn't play Fallout right, which means you are a zoomer" (the zoomer obsession being his projection because he's insecure about his own age)>because that's all he can do, goalpost move and goalpost move.Your next move after this is to pretend you weren't the one who said "actually the devs wanted to have useless skills in Bloodlines" >>3952380 because you are a subhuman jeet who only knows how to smear his shit with lies about Fallout's design and Fallout players. You only jumped in here cuz I reminded you of your PTSD from when I completely raped you earlier and I live in your head rent free now, as your nemesis.Since you won't address the original point (that the devs of Bloodlines wanted to make all skills useful, which you disagree with), I accept your upcoming concession.
Why are there no Indian vampires in Masquerade saars?
>>3954942The whole Ravnos clan, you retarded newfag tourist.
>>3954970Thank you saar! He look just like me.
>>3954970Weren't they more of a gypsy thing? Even if there's some connection there, I'd still call that different. There's also the getting wiped out part, but frankly that was for the best
>>3954942Nagaraja vampires originated in India. Pisha is one in VtMB although she doesn't specifically say where she's from.
>post casual question ITT>return to thread a few days later>tfw i opened the gates to a mongol invasion, bodies everywherelmao, love it when that happens
>>3952158>[A skill being] only usable a fraction of the time [...] is bad roleplaying offered by the game>It would be like playing Nosferatu and suffering barely any consequencesIt's like you're trying to have both sides of the argument. Do you want there to be consequences for having a certain build? Or do you want the game to let you solve issues regardless of what you invest in?The latter was my main issue with Night Road and the like.>Wait, why are you even thinking about what choice makes the most sense in a given situation? Just pick whatever you're most skilled in and you'll win. Now that's what I call Good Roleplaying!
>>3955659>Applelet IQ at workIn the first sentence, you are quoting me saying that it's bad that a skill has barely any impact on the game.In the second sentence, you are quoting me saying that the above would be as if a race, which has a description which specifically tells the player that it will have a big impact on the game, would have barely any impact on the game.The brain damage on display here is that you cannot tell the difference between "consequence", in terms of roleplaying and "consequence" in general.Having racial restrictions for playing Nosferatu is a roleplaying consequence. The DM reacts to your character being a Nosferatu. Many characters react negatively to a Nosferatu character in game, but for the player that's a positive consequence in a general sense, because it's the appeal of playing a Nosferatu.Picking a skill like Intimidation which then doesn't intimidate people or give you any unique content (other than $100 from a negro doctor) is the *lack of consequences* in a roleplaying sense.In the general sense of the word consequence, it is a consequence of a lack of time & money given to the developers of the game. It also as a consequence causes a big portio of gamers (guide readers/metafags) to avoid putting points into the Intimidate skill. An unexpected consequence is that it also causes jamboys to sweep for game designers who themselves never asked for the sweeping (it's as if some jamboy said "noo game dev saars wanted to release the game in a buggy state! do you want the game to just work on your computer?").
>>3955646It's pretty amusing that the schizo was so buttblasted about being wrong about Fallout 2 (and giving away the fact that he's a larping zoomer) that he's here months later seething about it in a thread about an entirely different game, kek
>>3955646>tfw i opened the gatesShalom
>3955691>jeet replying to himselfno normal person would assume >3955646 has anything to do with "Fallout 2", you just outed yourself by "knowing" that>jeet making up his own mythology about me>being wrong about Fallout 2I never was and never will be>fact that he's a larping zoomerI am the oldest poster on /vrpg/ and I'm only 36 years old. Guess that's why this board is filled with underage shitskins like you.I've been the God of RPGs on 4chan before even /vg/ was created, much less the other /v/ermin boards.
And there he is, right on cue, kek>>3955703>projecting that everyone else is the same poster because you can't comprehend that multiple people have correctly identified you as a schizo(classic schizo behaviour)>so asspained about repeatedly giving himself away as a retarded zoomer that he goes on yet another irrelevant diatribe(classic schizo behaviour)
>>3955674>specifically tells the player that it will have a big impact on the game, would have barely any impact on the game.In my opinion the impact is not big enough, since too many interactions with humans still happen the same way, but with an obligatory "whoa sick makeup dude" preamble.>It also as a consequence causes a big portio of gamers (guide readers/metafags) to avoid putting points into the Intimidate skill.Cool. How does that affect me?>it is a consequence of a lack of time & money given to the developers of the gameYou're assuming that making all social skills equally useful was the goal to begin with. I doubt that was the case.>Picking a skill like Intimidation which then doesn't intimidate people or give you any unique content (other than $100 from a negro doctor) is the *lack of consequences* in a roleplaying sense.The consequence comes from accepting that intimidation may not always be feasible or lead to a desired outcome. You could just as easily make the argument that Persuasion is overused/overpowered in comparison, or that having an essentially generic "Speech" skill alongside subcategories of it, is a bad design decision. But that would be focusing on the usefulness on mechanics for the purpose of "winning", rather than creating a character with these particular skills flaws and accepting that some things will be easier, some harder, some maybe even impossible. But I think we fundamentally disagree on that aspect.In New Vegas I was locked out of the rest of the Van Graff mission tree because my character had no Barter or Speech (not sure if being vehemently anti-NCR also contributed to it). Should the game have given me an alternative way to succeed anyway? No, I don't think so. But a more graceful way of allowing me to fail would have been nice (Disco Elysium did a bit of that nicely).>>3955705>Grrr I'm so mad that I deleted one meme arrow from my reply! That'll show em!I've always found that shit utterly hilarious.
>>3955710>Grrr I'm so mad that I deleted one meme arrow from my reply! That'll show em!Incontrovertible mark of the newfriend and they never even realise, kek
Wow, the thread that gets 0-1 reply gets 4 posts from Indian IPs in a row when I trigger some shitskin from India. What a coincidence!>In my opinion the impact is not big enoughIt's bigger than Intimidation and that is an objective fact provable by the source metacode used in the dialogue files.>Cool. How does that affect me?No one cares about you.>You're assuming that making all social skills equally useful was the goal to begin with.Two of the three founders of Troika said they wanted to have all skills useful in Fallout and Arcanum. There are no interviews for Bloodlines, but only a mentally ill shitskin from India would think>I DOUBT SAARS WANTED TO MAKE THE GAME GOODby the way, in case you're wondering how I know it's you samefagging in all 4 cases - not only did you spam 4 posts in a row at the same time, you also immediately accepted the "other anon's" (your) premise that I removed the ">" because of [your projection of my feelings]. You are projecting your own anger, because by removing the ">" you can't """"prove""" that you're "not samefagging" by removing (You)s from the quotes in MSPaint**.>The consequence comes from accepting that intimidation may not always be feasible or lead to a desired outcome. Genuine subhuman behavior. Not only can you not imagine an apple in your head, or shit in a toilet like a human being, you cannot even understand the difference between roleplaying consequences and generic cause-effect consequences.>The consequence comes from accepting that pressing the "Move Backwards" key may not always be feasible or lead to a desired outcome.^That's me humiliating you completely and utterly. So if I "accept this consequence", I am roleplaying in Doom because I *accept* that pressing the move backwards key will make me fall off a cliff, which is not a desirable outcome.
>>3953246>Yes yes, now it's the usual>>hehe, I am a different anonymous poster who came here to agree with you gentleman, you are so so right]>that magically appears in a thread to agree with you 20 minutes after you make a post in a thread that had until then 3 posts separated by 12/6 hours.>>3955717>Wow, the thread that gets 0-1 reply gets 4 posts from Indian IPs in a row>by the way, in case you're wondering how I know it's you samefagging in all 4 cases - not only did you spam 4 posts in a row at the same time, you also immediately accepted the "other anon's" (your) premise that I removed the ">" because of [your projection of my feelings]. You are projecting your own anger, because by removing the ">" you can't """"prove""" that you're "not samefagging" by removing (You)s from the quotes in MSPaint**.This is the type of person calling you a "schizo" btw
>>3955724Kek, saar you are so right kek, the schizo is so funny I just come here to vibe n chill saar
>>3955717>still seething too hard to correctly quote replies>still projecting and seething that all the people calling you retarded must be the same person >still projecting and seething about indians>STILL seething about Fallout 2 months after being btfoConcession accepted on every count, schizo
>>3955727>>3955724>>3955722>>3955717shut up queers, this is a vtmb thread
>>3955717Like I said, I left a comment here 5 days ago and came back to discover (You) having a major melty. I thought it'd be rude not to entertain the actual discussion, seeing as I feel at least partially responsible for it. But I think it's safe to say I'm done humouring you, so have fun with your thread... sir.
>3955730>jeet gets crushed so he does his usual shitposting shtick nowYou will never receive a concession from anyone, shitskin.>>3955732>your thread... saar.Jeet confirmed. Also notice how he's running away in all of his posts.
>>3955735Oh I'm not running away, just done with staying on topic for you. Think I'll stick around for your schizo shennanigans, for as long as you keep it entertaining. Glad you liked my Indian meme, sir.>>3955731Sir, this is a schizo thread now, please move along.
>>3955735Did you enjoy the ban you copped the last time you had a complete schizophrenic meltdown? Sure weren't too quick to come back that time!>>3909437 >>3909465 >>3909490 >>3909500>>3909528
>>3955774>be wrong about a game>people point out you're wrong>have a seething mental breakdown>get banned>months later>STILL seething about it>have another meltdown as soon as it comes upCareful, you don't want to get banned again now!btw, complaining about 4chan moderation is a bannable offence :)
>3955778>people pointYou are not people. Even if there was more than one of you.>hehe I reported you saarConcession accepted.>look I poster biutifel bob and vegene lady, I am so on topic saarsScared lil bitch, you are a shit poster in every thread you post in. Literally in the literal sense of literally. A poster made out of shit.
vampires?
>>3954942Pisha is a pajeeta. When WW realized that Gypsies originated in India, they made a branch of them that were all high caste and taken seriously, which was silly. There are Pajeet Ventrue too, an atavism from before the subcontinent went to shit. Oh, and there's also confirmed Indian Tzimisce, though we know very little about them.I'd assume, given the size of the area, that there's probably vampires of every clan in India. But the lore is sparse the minute you leave the USA and Europe.
>>3956206I don't know about how they were actually used or the actual lore about them, but Salubri also kind of had that eastern mystic nonsense shit to them. I think ultimately they really just didn't really tie the main clans to certain parts of the world as more than just a handful of flavored twists on other clans like the Sheriff who's some weird African Gangrel one (or at least I think that's what it was?). There's other supernatural creatures that would compete for "civilized" territory instead of just living in the wilderness after all
>>3913704most immersive sims are RPGs.
>>3953290>>3953088samefag
