>>3938887
I'd say Owlcat in general caters to a niche CPRG audience.

Larian wins every time.

I'd say they're both fucking awful

>>3938887
polar opposite audience. larian basically stepped in for bioware.

>>3938887
Larian streamlined CRPG multiplayer, and added environmental interactions, so that's a plus for me.
Owlcat redid BG1 and 2

Comparison is the death of the self.

Until BG3, I would’ve said Larian. Now they’re both meh. Owlcats games are like trash novels you buy in the airport and read for a flight, not great but serviceable and can be enjoyable if you don’t have anything better to do. By contrast, BG3 is actively awful and one of the most disappointing games of all time.

I really dislike companies doing owlcat style dlc release
bg3 is miles better for everything
you get a game, you buy it once and you get the complete experience. Done

>>3938887
I keep coming back to owlcat's games.

Larian's games are flashy and have more production value, but not much meat beyond the surface level. They're both good, its just if you want to replay a game over and over Owlcat's got more for you.

>>3939002
>complete experience
Like the upper city?

>>3938887
I like both desu

BG3 is genre and industry defining despite what 4chan hipsters will say. Owlcats only good game so far has been Rogue Trader. I haven't played WoTR but kingmaker was dogshit by act 4. Time will tell if owlcat can continue to improve and if BG3 was an anomaly for larian.

>>3939056
>BG3 is genre and industry defining despite what 4chan hipsters will say
Literally just high production values. Thats what every single dev meant by complaining that “BG3 raised the bar”, they were saying they couldn’t afford to match its budget. It was extremely transparent.

>>3938990
What a trash take, BG3 is damn near bulletproof.

>>3939032
NTA- but Its a fucking 150 hour game its fucking complete.

>>3938916
Larian hasn't made any good games in its entire history. Owlcat has just made the three best games of the last twenty six years of any genre. No contest.

>>3938887
>janky as fuck but still decent games
>overhyped garbage with terrible writing and gimmicky gameplay
Yeah I take the slavjank.

>>3938959
No, it's the thief of joy. Get the saying right. It's "empathy without boundaries is self-destruction", meaning that while it's good to have empathy you have to maintain a separation between yourself and those you empathize with.

>>3939094
Oh it's just time investment that matters? Wrath and Kingmaker are both longer than 150 hours. Rogue Trader is roughly 120 - 150... So what's BG3's excuse for being just fucking incomplete?

>>3939098
Peak hipster contrarianism holy shit lmao. You done prebuffing yet owlfag? Combat should start any second now, just 10 more buffs before you start.

>>3939099
It really cannot be emphasized enough how fucking awful the writing is for BG3.

>>3939104
You just admitted to everyone here that you are so bad at the game that you need full buffs before you can play. That's not a problem other people have. That's just you.

>>3939102
>Wrath and Kingmaker are both longer than 150 hours.
Bit of a slow one eh? Don't worry champ, it's a marathon not a race. Finishing last is still finishing. You can always look up a guide if you get stumped.

>>3939106
And you just admitted you played on story mode lmao. The two most popular mods for your dogshit game are a literal cheat mode and an autobuffing mod.

>>3939079
>Literally just high production values
No, that would be something like the near universally panned Veilguard. What Larian achieved with BG3 was unparalleled interactivity, systems and narrative complexity.

>>3938887
trash vs garbage

>>3939110
>BG3
>narrative complexity.

>>3939109>>3939106

you guys ever kissed girls?

>>3939094
>Its a fucking 150 hour game its fucking complete.
You mean that you feel that it’s adequately long, not complete. They cut major amounts of planned content (including the entire upper city) to rush the game out the door, and then shoved what portions of the upper city were finished into random corners of the lower city. Cazadors mansion is up a fucking guard tower on top of a wall for fucks sake.

>>3938887

I like both for different reasons. I like Owlcat becasue i like to micro manage builds to get EXACTLY the character i want. WoTR was fantastic in that respect and the mythic paths and the mounts gave even more extra layers.

As for Larian, i like Larian because builds aren´t everything. Both DoS2 and BG3 have great verticality and world reactivity. You really have a ton of control in how to solve any given conflict, from dialogue choices to affecting the environment or distracting an NPC while another get what you need from it. You can even get away from traditional dichotomies. Most games would force you to choose between Goblins and Druids, Harpers and Ketheric, Orin and Gortash... but not BG3. In BG3 you can actually be pragmatic rather than just cartoonishly good or cartoonishly evil. And the presentation is fantastic.

Both games have problems in the party conformation/companions and overall plot and world design but they are still great experiences.

>>3939090
>BG3 is damn near bulletproof
It has some good aspects to it, but they are so heavily weighed down by all the garbage decisions and stupid shit in it, that it ruins the overall package. That’s why I was so disappointed by it, precisely because I had high hopes for it and thought that it was going to be great. That’s also why I can’t take seriously the opinion of anyone who says “it’s one of the greatest games of all time” or “flawlessly executed, a modern masterpiece” or similar comments. Just means I’m talking to a zoomer with no frame of reference, or simply someone with bad taste.

>>3939133
There's no point. They're worthless compared to kissing guys. Stop wasting your time, anon.

>>3939109
Uhhhh I completed the game soloing my single character on hard mode, anon. You need to learn how to read, because that's important when playing RPGs. Sorry that you can't figure out how a simple, minimalistic game works, but you need to be quiet instead of shooting your mouth off when you don't know what you're talking about.
Here's some advice about the game to get you started: if you aren't doing 200 damage per round before level 5, your build is wrong. By level 15 you should be doing more than a thousand damage per target per round, and you don't need buffs to do this, it's just the bare minimum to aim for with a build. Hope that helps.

>>3939136
Zoomers think D&D 5e is the best thing ever because it's the latest version of D&D. They have no frame of reference, correct.
For actual people, though, just the fact that it's 5e is enough to negate any potential positive review of BG3. It's just fucking garbage. I don't even have a pejorative strong enough to describe how fucking awful the actual GAME MECHANICS are.

>>3939171
While I respect the effort put into your bait the actual contents of it are too obvious. The subtle approach is best. You'll get the hang of it one day newfag.

>>3939100
I'm not quoting a saying.
Constant comparison is self-nullification.

>>3939134
Thats a fucking bullsbit argument and you know it.

If the lower city was called "the city" and you didnt have bg1 for comparison you would have no concept or expectation of more "city". It's both adequately long and* complete.

>>3938887
>picking a side to argue in a debate when both sides are wrong and garbage
couldn't be me

>>3939173
>to describe how fucking awful the GAME MECHANICS are

5e is still more mechanical interesting and satisfying then 95% of games. Calm the fuck down.

>>3939384
>5e is still more mechanical interesting and satisfying then 95% of games
NTA. It’s really not. It’s bad and boring. It’s made for people who don’t like DnD.

>>3939136

>"Its one of the greatest games of all time"
Yes
>"Flawlessly executed"
No, literally nothing that has an epic scope meets this criteria.
>"A modern masterpiece"
Debatably, yes. It accomplishes and executes alot quite well. A little rough around the edges but masterful* in many regards. No masterpiece is perfect.
>"It just means I'm talking to a zoomer with no frame of reference, or simply someone with bad taste"
Could be, I'll admit I am a zoomer. By a razors edge, but a zoomer nonetheless. I've played a lot of games, even bg 1 and 2. What frame of reference could I be missing? Genuinely curious what you have to say.

>>3939204
>everything I don't like is just trolling
You're having a hard time playing an easy game on easy mode with a full party. No surprise you're having difficulty with all of this.

>>3939384
It's more mechanically interesting than, like, tic-tac-toe I guess? Or Connect Four? Or Go Fish? Or hop scotch? Or fucking tiddly winks? Yeah, ok... 95% of games...

>>3939386
Let's take a look at some of the hot games of the past 10/15 years.

>Skyrim
>Witcher 3
>Cyberpunk 2077
>Breath of the Wild
>Red Dead Redemption 2
>GTA V
>Elden Ring

I've played all of these games and none of them are as mechanically fun or interesting as BG3. The closest from this list is probably Elden Ring, and synergy is really boring in that game. You could put pretty much all shooters and action rpgs below BG3 mechanically with ease.

The only games I can think of that are* as or more mechanically interesting than BG3 are

>Pathfinder
>BG1/2

I'm new to the crpg genre as a whole, but all the ones I've played through are more mechanically interesting, intracate, fun then 95% of games.

I've played

>Bg1/2/3 (finished)
>Kotor (unfinished)
>Kingmaker (in progress)
>Dragon Age origins (unfinished)

Also recommend me some games with funner mechanics, particularly crpgs if you can. I'm always on the lookout.

>>3939266
>If the lower city was called "the city" and you didnt have bg1 for comparison
The “upper city vs lower city” is nothing to do with BG1, it’s from the gay 5th ed lore. I played the game in early access in 2020 and was following its development closely. They were absolutely advertising a fully playable upper city on par with the lower city, there was promo art showing Astarion in front of the gates of Cazadors mansion (a freestanding structure that wasn’t crammed up a guard tower atop a wall), etc. Without looking anything up, off the top of my head several areas that ended up crammed into the edges of the map were intended to be in the upper city, Cazadors mansion and the house of forgetfulness or whatever it was called come to mind.
>you would have no concept or expectation of more "city". It's both adequately long and* complete.
I think the game is long enough, I think my first full playthrough was 100 or 120 hours or something like that (and act 3 is by far the worst act, and I just wanted it to be over). But the game was not complete, they cut significant amounts of content to rush it out the door. If they had been honest and said “sorry guys we ran out of time and money and had to beat Starfield to market” or whatever the real reasons were, I’d understand. Plenty of games get rushed and planned stuff gets cut, it happens. Just don’t lie about it. They gaslit about “ummm actually sweaty that’s just a conspiracy theory we never cut anything and delivered exactly the game we promised but also if we did cut anything it was solely out of respect for you, our beloved players :)”.
They did the same shit in DOS2, act 4 was severely cut and bare bones but to their credit they did attempt to patch and restore it after launch, which didn’t happen with BG3.
BG3 also hilariously didn’t have things like fucking ending slides or finishing Karlachs personal quest at launch, either. The performance in act 3 on a high end PC was also trash.

>>3939395
>I think the game is long enough

>So even if it was longer, you'd still be complaining. Got it.

>I think my first full playthrough was 100 or 120 hours or something like that

Speedblitz rushed through Act 2 and 3. Got it


>(and act 3 is by far the worst act, and I just wanted it to be over).

Speedblitzed it. Got it

>But the game was not complete, they cut significant amounts of content to rush it out the door

Doesn't understand that video games always have a limited budget and never execute all of their ideas. Got it.

>The performance of Act 3 on a high PC was also trash

Doesn't have a high end PC. Got it.

Am I missing anything?

>>3939402
>Am I missing anything?
Yes, the other 90% of my post which you ignored because you're a dishonest fanboy who's incapable of engaging with what people actually say.
>Speedblitz rushed through Act 2 and 3. Got it
No. I'm a methodical and completionist player who does everything, barring quests and actions that the character I'm roleplaying wouldn't do. Regardless, if the game takes 100 hours or 120 or 150 to complete, those numbers are tangential to my argument, which is not that "the game was too short" but that "the game was heavily cut and released incomplete and the devs lied about it to save face".
>Doesn't have a high end PC. Got it.
I was getting 144 FPS in act 1 on ultra settings at 2560x1440, because that act had gotten several years of polish and player feedback during EA. Acts 2 and especially 3 were significantly less polished and optimized, and performance steadily degraded throughout the game. By act 3 in the lower city, I was getting an average of 60, with occasional chugging down to lows of 30 which is hilarious because BG1 ran at 30 fps at the time when something like a Pentium 2 300 MHz was hot shit. There was some Youtube faggot playing an even jankier pre-release promo copy and he was getting 20 FPS lows in the lower city. Larian went "UHH IT'S THE PUDDLES"

You clearly didn't even play the game at launch, and are incapable of being reasonable. I don't even know why I'm wasting time trying to have a discussion with you.

>>3939537 (you)
>There was some Youtube faggot playing an even jankier pre-release promo copy and he was getting 20 FPS lows in the lower city.
Playing on a 4090*

To reiterate: the overall point you missed was that
>the game was not complete, they cut significant amounts of content to rush it out the door. If they had been honest and said “sorry guys we ran out of time and money and had to beat Starfield to market” or whatever the real reasons were, I’d understand. Plenty of games get rushed and planned stuff gets cut, it happens. Just don’t lie about it. They gaslit about “ummm actually sweaty that’s just a conspiracy theory we never cut anything and delivered exactly the game we promised but also if we did cut anything it was solely out of respect for you, our beloved players :)”

>>3939538
Look I was jesting a little bit, but let me be clear. What the developers said about the game has no bearing on the actual quality and completeness of the game itself. Even if they were gaslighting douchebags about the cut content, it simply doesnt mean that the game wasn't a complete experience. You have to evaluate the game on the basis of what it is, not what the developers say about it. Take it at face value.

Take Cyberpunk 2077.
Its a very good game when it was finally fixed.
The developers made false promises about the game, saying it would be a "choose your story" rpg, when it was really just an action adventure game. Albeit a very good one.

It seems you have a bone to pick with Larian because you didnt get 144 fps in act 3? Come on man, its ridiculous to expect all AAA games to be optimized for stable 144 fps. Still your right I didnt play it at launch, so again, like we do with Cyberpunk, evaluate the game on its present merits.

>>3938887
>one is shit the other is also shit
>us or iran
>larian or owlcat
>piss or shit
The answer is neither

>>3939098
Divine Divinity was ok.
First Pathfinder game was ok.
All the rest is crap

>>3939550
>it's ridiculous to expect AAA games to have proper optimization
Of all the things you can complain about or forgive a triple A game for, optimization is never one.

>>3939550
>Even if they were gaslighting douchebags about the cut content, it simply doesnt mean that the game wasn't a complete experience.
If they cut significant portions of the game, then it is not "complete". Not just the upper city, but basic shit like endling slides and being able to finish companion quests was missing at launch.
>You have to evaluate the game on the basis of what it is, not what the developers say about it. Take it at face value.
My opinions about BG3 are based upon my subjective experiences while playing the final released version of the game blind. I think that the game is shit specifically because of "the basis of what it is".
>Take Cyberpunk 2077. Its a very good game when it was finally fixed
I dispute that it was "finally fixed". They did add shit to it over the years, but never addressed its fundamental issues. However, it is a good contrast to BG3: both games were disappointments when they came out, while CDPR acknowledged that they fucked up and that players were justified in being unhappy with the game, and they apologized and tried to improve the game. Whether or not they succeeded is a different question, but it ended up being a game that can be fun to play, even if what we got was a different than the game they started out developing.
>It seems you have a bone to pick with Larian because you didnt get 144 fps in act 3? Come on man, its ridiculous to expect all AAA games to be optimized for stable 144 fps.
This is a great example of the type of fanboyism I'm describing. The thread of the conversation went
>the game was "complete"
>it was not complete, here's examples of how it was cut and rushed, one of which is the degrading performance as you go through the game
>lol ur comp sux
>comp is fine, game is the problem
>jeez your expectations sure are unreasonable
OK bro.

>>3939599 (you)
>evaluate the game on its present merits
I did. After I finished the game at launch, I gave it another year or two in the oven for it to get its "it's done now" patches, hoping that the devs did something like DOS2, where they salvaged what they could of act 4 and improved the game. I replayed it in its "final, we're serious this time" state, and the game was still shit. They didn't improve it or fix shit, they just took their giant pile of money and ran. Fuck 'em.

>>3939589
Kingmaker and Wrath were both masterpieces. They're different in style, but you can't say one is better than the other.
The same could not be said of the Divinity games. Larian is just not good at making games in terms of game systems design, and is fucking awful at writing RPGs.

>>3939599
>If they cut significant portions of the game then it was not complete
No video game has ever been made that included all of its its ideas into the final product. Every game has "cut content" anon, literally all of them. What your suggesting isn't even logical, in the slightest. In fact, its nonsensical.

>jeez ur expectations sure are unreasonable

I mean i'm not arguing with your characterization of my point. Thats precisely what I meant. I have a high end build(5080), but the current industry standard is 60 fps medium settings 1080 or 1440. Anything more than that is a bonus.

I guess you can complain about not being able to run 1440p 144fps on ultra but like really?? Its not fucking fortnite.

>>3939612
>Every game has "cut content" anon, literally all of them. What your suggesting isn't even logical, in the slightest. In fact, its nonsensical.
Let me now repeat myself for the third time:
>Plenty of games get rushed and planned stuff gets cut, it happens.
>Just don’t lie about it.
>If they had been honest and said “sorry guys we ran out of time and money and had to beat Starfield to market” or whatever the real reasons were, I’d understand.
But you dipshits always go with these retarded strawman arguments that ignore what's actually being said.
>I guess you can complain about not being able to run 1440p 144fps on ultra but like really?? Its not fucking fortnite.
You are, apparently, retarded. The entire reason this was brought up was to support the argument that while act 1 was heavily playtested (by three years of early access) and optimized, the performance steadily degraded as one went through the game, because the later acts of the game were rushed, unfinished, and kicked out the door early, without being polished, finished, or optimized. I was not complaining about the performance of act 3 in a vacuum, in absolute terms (though it was indeed bad in absolute terms as well), I am contrasting the performance *of the same game relative to itself*.
Last (you), you have nothing interesting to say, and can't even respond to what is said repeatedly.

What debate?
Financial wise. Larian outsold anything owlcat made and will make.
Quality wise, Divine divinity alone beats anything made by Owlcat. Original sin series is certainly better than pathfinder just because of the horrible trash encounter rate in pathfinder games.
People can bitch about larian and bear sex, but their games are above owlcat attempts.

>>3939619
>>If they had been honest and said “sorry guys we ran out of time and money and had to beat Starfield to market” or whatever the real reasons were, I’d understand.
This can literally be applied to every single game, genius. Cut content happens because of a lack of t+ money or time or both.

>>3939619
Let me now repeat myself for the third time:
>Plenty of games get rushed and planned stuff gets cut, it happens.
>Just don’t lie about it.
>If they had been honest and said “sorry guys we ran out of time and money and had to beat Starfield to market” or whatever the real reasons were, I’d understand

I've already addressed and negated that point. Allow me to repeat myself for a second time.

>"What the developers said about the game has no bearing on the actual quality and completeness of the game itself. Even if they were gaslighting douchebags about the cut content, it simply doesnt mean that the game wasn't a complete experience"

Yea i'm the one ignoring what actually being said.

>the performance steadily degraded as one went through the game, because the later acts of the game were rushed, unfinished, and kicked out the door early, without being polished, finished, or optimized.

Polished? No, your right about that point.

Finished? Absolutely no question

Optimized? In its present state? Yes, just because Acts 2 and 3 aren't as* insanely well optimized as 1 doesn't mean that their not sufficiently optimized.

As for the state of the game when it was released, I heard Act 3 was rough on a mid range pc, and especially on console. I heard it struggled to maintain 60fps. At that point it was not* sufficiently optimized. Thats history. The present has overridden the past.

I just played through on my TV. I was limited to 60fps, but played in native 4k ultra. Can't recall a single stutter, even in act 3.

>My opinions about BG3 are based upon my subjective experiences while playing the final released version of the game blind

I'm only interested in discussing opinions about the present state of the game, or states close to it.

>I did. After I finished the game at launch, I gave it another year or two in the oven for it to get its "it's done now" patches

As I said, its sufficiently optimized across acts 1,2 and 3, presently.

>>3939634
>Cut content happens because of a lack of t+ money or time or both
It actually happens because of poor planning.

>>3939632
The encounter design of pathfinder is the worst I've ever seen in a game.

>>3939603
Yet I did, and choose to disregard your silly opinion

Let's be objective.
Owlcat
>Slavs with no experience who had to flee their home country and scrape together projects in unity
Larian
>Decades of experience in RPGs and saved by Chinese funding in the heart of the EU using American and UK writers

Even getting compared is a win for Owlcat. Obsidian is right out.

>>3939656
>saved by Chinese funding in the heart of the EU using American and UK writers
*monkeys paw curls*

>>3939136
>Just means I'm talking to a zoomer
KOTOR II, Arcanum, and VTMB are unfinished clusterfucks and are among my favorite games of all time. Despite what we all know happened with BG3's development, BG3 feels more complete and polished than all those 3 games. I would call all four games masterpieces, but not flawless.

>>3939654
Your silly opinion was discarded.
>nuh uh~!!!
Well actually, you're just wrong because here's why
>nuh uh~!!
Ok, well, whatever.
>nuh uh~!
...
>nuh uh~!

>>3939645
Guess how we can all tell you've never been involved in game development in any capacity, not even modding or any other adjacent endeavor. Go on. Guess.

>>3939648
Are you serious? I can't tell.

>>3939732
Ooh, ooh, I know this, it's because I'm good at my job and don't make excuses for my failures.

>>3939733
If you've played the games you'd understand.

>>3938887
theres not a single thing wotr does better than bg3

>>3939765
NTA but I'm 50 hours into Kingmaker, I feel like the encounter design is pretty solid most of the time. Act 1 was filled with a lot of mindless trash encounters, but act 2 is a lot more strategic encounter wise.

What are some crpgs you'd recommend with good encounter design?

The only crpgs I've played to completion are bg1/2/3.

>>3939781
>theres not a single thing wotr does better than bg3
No black elves, black dwarves, black halflings, 50% of humans aren’t black, etc

>>3939793
just ghetto black woman paladin, black gay cleric, lesbian orc commander in relationship with a women whos secretly a tranny

>>3939797
You have to enumerate specific examples, while I would exceed the post character limit, were I to do the same for BG3.

>>3939793
the only black guy in your BG3 party has a whole subplot where you can do NTR to him by fucking his hot demon patron where he disapproves every time you fuck her (3 different times) which implies the hot demon is showing him you fucking her while he sits in a cuck chair
but none of this matters because you are the property of Jeffrey Epstein and will die in the service of Israel

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>>3939798

>>3939792
Kingmaker is really solid until act 4, then it nosedives in quality. When you get to the dungeon I'm talking about you'll know.

For RTWP dragon age Origins has good fights although the mechanics are dated now, PoE2 is overall solid. For turn based BG3 makes every encounter meaningful, not much filler bullshit. Rogue Trader is a significant improvement over owlcats other games.

>>3939810
>When you get to the dungeon i'm talking about youll know

How does it drop in quality? Can you explain it without spoilers? Is it just a lot of fodder enemies one after another?

>rogue trader

Yea I want to get into it, I've heard its great. Not usually into sci-fi themed universes. Typically like high fantasy. I'm not much for guns either. Still I might give it a try after I exhaust all the good fantasy crpgs.

I've heard Shadowrun is a good crpg series. Ever played that one?

>>3939797
What the fuck are you talking about?

>>3939859
40k is only sci-fi in the most nominal sense.

>>3938887
bg3 is troonslop and owlcat has made the most well written 40k media ever

>>3939859
It's filled to the brim with time wasting trash mobs, like every 20 feet there's another encounter. I'm not being hyperbolic, it's bad. And every fight applies permanent stat debuffs. Everything is designed to waste your time at that point.

I've had no exposure to Warhammer prior to RT. I largely think the universe is over the top and frankly rather stupid but the game itself is a lot of fun. The longer I play the more I can get into it but I'm never gonna be a huge fan. 40K is all just a bit too much.

>>3939860
Ignore him. That's what too much 4chan and zero sunlight does to a mf

>>3939971
There's like one troon in bg3 calm down

>>3938887
>Owlcat releases a fresh title or a new DLC once every year/six months.

>Larian churns out one game every 4-5 years.

It's not even a competition, those two studios have completely different philosophies.

>>3939797
>just ghetto black woman paladin
From the not!Africa of the setting. And her being a crusader in a distant land that's plagued by demons makes sense.

>lesbian orc commander
Bisexual, and she remains a virgin till her death if she never meets Anevia.

>women whos secretly a tranny
Used literal magic to turn into a biological woman. That's not a transsexual, that's fucking wizardry. Plus his story is unintentionally extremely funny, because he was basically groomed into thinking of himself as a woman.

>>3940007
By that point in the game though you have soooooooo many spell slots and scrolls and stuff that if they didn't pressure your resources you could trivialize every fight. Pressuring players to manage their resources is a valid dungeon design, anon.

>>3938887
not the biggest fan of either but I can't say I haven't enjoyed some of their games so they're both alright in my book

>>3938887
They both make sodomite simulators, you're a fag either way.

>>3939098
Larian's coming off back-to-back releases of the highest rated CRPGs ever. You're a contrarian.

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>>3938887
Thanks but I don't need more than this.

>>3940424
DOS2 was pretty good, but BG3 is complete shit
I won’t go so far as to say the Owlcat games are great masterpieces though, that’s a bridge too far for me

>>3940442
>BG3 is complete shit

Not a single redeemable thing about it?

>>3940990
It has some good elements, but there’s more than enough shit to ruin the overall package. Probably one of the more schizophrenic games in recent memory, juxtaposing the potential to be great with absolute garbage retardation.

>>3940178
>>3940424
Yes their philosophy is totally different. If the Pathfinder games were fully voiceacted and remade to look like AAA bg3 they would probably much more acclaimed than they are currently.

BG3 would probably still be better, but the presentation of the pathfinder games would be on the same level and subsequently more acclaimed. High budget hits harder, if its combines with genuine artistry.

>>3939394
>BG1/2
>mechanically interesting
There is no character building in that game at all beyond choosing character class. Even autistic stat rolling at charges means shit cause half is stats do near nothing and rest have OP items that sets it above what you can roll.

>>3941048
>there is no character building at all beyond choosing character class

Its not really the character building i'm referring to thats interesting. Its the 2nd edition DnD rule set. The complex rule system alone makes it more mechanically interesting than 95 percent of games.

Most games are pretty barebones mechanically amd don't measure up to a mechanically complex rule set like Pathfinder or DnD. Other Crpgs developers like Larian and Owlcat (Rogue Trader/Divinity) tend to make fairly intracate rule systems in their own right(or so I hear).

Which makes sense as the way Crpgs play gameplay wise tends to necessitate/invite more complex mechanics than your average game.

I would adjust my original statement to this

>Crpgs are more mechanically interesting that 95% of games.

>>3939394
lmao imagine shitting on pure action/adventure because they lack your stat autism mechanics

>>3941048
>There is no character building in that game at all beyond choosing character class.
This is a good thing, build autism is a disease.

>>3941044
>If the Pathfinder games were fully voiceacted and remade to look like AAA bg3 they would probably much more acclaimed than they are currently.

no they wouldnt because the combat and encounters would still revolve around prebuffing and small flat maps with gorrilion load screens would still exist.

>>3941322
>This is a good thing, build autism is a disease.
It was once understood that build mechanics were a means to the end of roleplaying a character, not the end itself.

>>3941397
Then came magic the gathering...

>>3941399
>Then came magic the gathering...
Tragic!

>>3941351
The combat would be the same but they could remake the maps. Think of FF7 the original game is basically isometric

>>3941312
I'm not trying to shit on them. I enjoy them, i'm just trying to be objective. Action games are generally lower IQ than Crpgs. Mechanically, build wise, writing, in every respect really.

>>3938918
I'd say you're right.

>>3938918
Yeah, the only debate here is which one is the most awful.

>>3940442
came to say this

i can't wait for the new divinity, bg3 was pozzed from the first chapter

>>3940442
I also agree with this. Maybe I am giving a leeway to Divinity because it is not DnD (and after years of playing DnD vidya I have some expectations from them, including gameplay, area design and general ambiance), but it also felt like each encounter in D:OS is a puzzle rather than just combat. Closest you get to that feel in BG3 is during the assault on the tavern in Act 2 where you have to defend Isobel from kidnapping. I will also be eternally mad about broken long rests on release after bug being found year prior in EA, I couldn't go into Act 3 because game would CTD on me every time I tried to progress.

>>3938918
What Crpg developers would you recommend? Genuinely.

>>3941649
I'm not a leftist but man, don't let your leftphobia keep you from enjoying BG3, or recognizing that its a masterpiece.

Also if you think Divinity 3 won't be pozzed well... you have another thing coming my friend.

>>3940181
>Used literal magic to turn into a biological woman. That's not a transsexual, that's fucking wizardry.
oh look it's this cope argument lol
>being a transvestite is good because... magic or something

>>3938918
>>3941624
>>3941641
If yall are gonna sit here and say Owlcat and* Larian are both shit, you must have at least 2 or 3 other companies in mind who are better at making Crpgs? So genuinely who? I really want to play these great Crpgs yall have been playing that I've never heard of.

>>3941742
Every good developer either went out of business or turned into shit. It’s literally over.

>>3941752

>Le back in my dayyy games were...

Of course that was the answer.

>>3941667
I haven't played the Divinity games. Its on my list but honestly your description of them is a little disappointing and killing my anticipation. I actually quite enjoyed saving Isobel in BG3, as a unique challenging puzzle artifact, but I wouldnt want every battle to be that way.

I think Crpg combat should involve strategy and an element of puzzle solving, but should ultimately feel like combat. In a Crpg there should be a sense that their are hundreds of ways to win every battle, even on tactitian/hard difficulty. Not only 3 or 4 strategies you can employ to "solve" the puzzle. Its fun occasionally, but it will ultimately become a limiting stricture if its the entire game.

I actually have a friend who complained that divinity 2 was this way, that it was nigh on impossible to beat without employing a series of hyper-specific-gamey strategies involving cc and teleporting allies/enemies in and out of cc/AoE zones. He complained that their was essentially no other way to play the game.

Honestly I thought he might just be bad, but what your saying makes me think he might be right. I think his exact words were "it(DOS 2) present itself as a 'play anyway you want to', when really its 'play using a hyperspecific strategy'(or die)".

>>3941742
cdpr unironically

>>3941763
>cdpr unironically
Based anon just woke up from a six year coma. Welcome, buddy.

>>3941763
cdpr has never made a Crpg...

I'm talking specifically about the Crpg genre, not the Arpg genre.

>>3941755
>>Le back in my dayyy games were...
>Of course that was the answer.
You're welcome to present your opinion on the long-term trends of the computer games industry once you've been paying attention to it for more than a few years.

>>3941769
Not necessary, I've gone back and played crpgs from the 90's, 2000's, to completion actually. I've played the games that were "good" from way back when. I'm aware of the trends, I've interacted with them retrospectively. BG2 was a great game, it holds up nicely.

It does however get mogged by BG3 in nearly every respect. Things have actually gotten alot better since then, all you have to do to see that is well, open your eyes...

>>3938887
i like both but owlcat games are way more bloated and the pacing is awful. town management/heroes of might and magic battles were awful and felt like a huge waste of time. also alushinyrra fucking stinks. despite that i do like their games and have finished both pathfinders twice. i put like 15 hours into their warhammer game and it really just felt like more of the same and i got bored very quickly.

>>3941777
>I'm aware of the trends, I've interacted with them retrospectively.
No. If you weren’t there and you didn’t live it, you’ll never know what it was like. Just how it works. You have no frame of reference because you’ve grown up in clown world and all you know is how incredibly fake and gay the industry is nowadays. You don’t know what it’s like to see every single studio and developer you used to like and respect either get shut down or fall off into making slop.
>It does however get mogged by BG3 in nearly every respect. Things have actually gotten alot better since then, all you have to do to see that is well, open your eyes...
Great example of why I can’t take your opinion seriously. BG3 is a pile of garbage that is popular solely for having good graphics, romance, and a clever marketing campaign. It uses the shittiest version of DnD rules ever, designed from the ground up to appeal to a new audience of casuals. The AI is braindead, the encounter design extremely gimmicky, the itemization is memey and terrible, the story and writing are abysmal, and it’s packed full of abhorrent political propaganda. It even has muh ebin Critical Role faggots and tranny YouTubers. It’s everything wrong with the modern games industry, encapsulated.
also, checked

>>3941791
man i first played BG2 something like 20 years ago and BG3 is obviously extremely good. if this isnt bait you may just be a retarded faggot. something to consider.

>>3941791

>Rambles like an out of touch millenial-schizo

>also, checked

Little high on your own supply?

>>3941797
>>3941803
I’ve literally seen one (1) BG3 fan on this board (he was alright, even if we disagreed) who wasn’t a stupid faggot. It’s a nearly-flawless litmus test for general retardation and terrible opinions.

>>3941804
>everything is shit
wow what an epic thought you are so wise

>>3941805
The sheer profundity is hard to fathom, lol

>>3941742
>other companies
If you really want my 2c start by ditching this tribal brand loyalty bullshit. There isn't and there never will be a single company or any single developer that turns everything they touch to gold. There are only good games and how good they actually are is subjective as all fuck to how much your personal brand of tism engages with them.

That said, owlkike games, and I played them all, are frontloaded out the ass and equally buggy. Would be better if they cooked a lot more instead of released broken, farmed for dlc and then ditched for the next project.
Larian is generally more competent, and have been around a lot longer, but have focused their appeal and target audience to be political shock value commentary and coomer farming long before bg3. So yeah, I'd agree with that they're both fucking awful companies and I'd say neither made a game I can appreciate. Well, except maybe og divine divinity.

>>3940424
nta but I played divos 2 at release, even bought it early access and i consider it to be the worst game in my steam library. It's shocking how popular it is while i could write a book about how bad it is ( mostly about armor system, round robin and its interactions, dialogue, writing, scaling). BG3 is the first Larian game I'd call acceptable at best and that's partly because DnD in its current state is utter shit

>>3941735
Spiderweb software but before queens wash

>>3941949
These games actually look quite good, thanks

>>3941777
>It does however get mogged by BG3 in nearly every respect.
trips wasted on a very vacuous and shallow comment

>>3940007
>It's filled to the brim with time wasting trash mobs, like every 20 feet there's another encounter. I'm not being hyperbolic, it's bad. And every fight applies permanent stat debuffs. Everything is designed to waste your time at that point.
You just built your party badly and didn't apply the right buffs and protection

>>3938887
I would be more fond of Owlcat's games if they didn't drop the ball so hard on encounter design. In such lengthy games with so much combat, it becomes a pretty big issue that almost none of the enemy groups or environments are interesting in any way, and the only way any foes even attempt to pose a challenge is through massive stat values. Larian's better games still have their flaws, but the combat is a lot more enjoyable. Larian's games generally have pretty weak writing, but that's something I can more easily forgive for the most part.

The thing nobody talks about is enemy AI, BG3 enemies are sentient genAI compared to the braindead scripts owlcat enemies are using.

>>3942481
>The thing nobody talks about is enemy AI, BG3 enemies are sentient genAI
BG3's AI is garbage. If you have high AC and get the item that makes you immune to crits in act 3, all the trash mobs break their logic because they can't think of a way to hurt you, so on each of their turns they'll freeze and "think" for about 20 seconds before trying to go hide in a corner and emote *GRRRRRR!* at you.

>>3942378
My time is worth more than prebuffing before every fight.

>>3942550
>muh time is valuable
>>here

>>3942376
Its true, BG3 has better writing, encounter design, combat, pacing, narrative complexity, visuals etc...

Its just the better game, no amount of nostalgia will change that.

Sorry.

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513 KB JPG

>>3942759
Better waifus too

>>3942759
>BG3 has better writing
lol, lmao even
You are completely delusional

>>3942779
More like they both have shit writing and plots, the issue is that you have to sit through tedious TV show dialogue cutscenes in BG3. It's really an apples and oranges comparison.

>>3942779
BG2 is high school graduate tier compared to the masterclass in writing that is BG3.

>>3942828
Too obvious, write betterer.

>>3942880
Whats too obvious? I'm legimately not trolling or ragebaiting in the slightest. Let me be absolutely clear in my position.

BG2 Writing<BG3 Writing

This shouldn't be controversial, and really its not. The only shithole on the internet where people thing BG2 (Writing or otherwise) is better than BG3 is... (you guessed it) 4chan.

>>3942968
>BG2 Writing<BG3 Writing
does not equate to
>masterclass in writing that is BG3

Newsflash, both suck.

>>3942972
BG3's writing is quite impressive. The way the characters are interwoven throughout the story, coupled with their motivations and relations to you and the other characters is genuinely masterful.

The sheer narrative complexity is enough to blow a whole wide open in most rpgs.

Genuinely what do you have against it?

>>3938887
No debate for me! Game design is king, Larian makes good gameplay and good level design, its a funtime for me to engage in their maps/levels and explore them, solve their puzzles and encounters with fun tactical flexible combat system with good sound effects and animations and fun spells and synergies. Their writing is even more reactive and their quest design is more open ended.

Owlcat games bore me, they are a snoozefest, i dont like their game design at all, their levels and dungeons are too linear and too shallow, its a one layer instead of the multilayered larian maps. Their encounter design is lazy trash mob spam and their boss fights are unremarkable, i dont like their combat system its rigid, hollow, boring and creatively bankrupt, their production is weak and their writing lacks a lot of the reactive and quickness found in larians rpgs, its just walls of text upon walls of texts and its honestly not inspired at all, at the end of the end its all generic high fantasy.

If i wanted good writing or interesting stories there is a ton other better places to look for, even videogames, but if i wanted that rpg game design goodness then larian is where its at.

>>3943017
>rpg game design goodness then larian is where its at.
In owlcat games you shape the future of a nation, in larian games you pick between gay sex with your forced black npc companion or a magic dildo of lolsorandumxd

There is zero roleplaying going on in bg3

>>3943012
>masterful
>blow a whole wide open
lol

>>3943037

>there is zero role-playing going on in bg3

Okay breh

BG1 and BG2 have okay writing and plots. Nothing special, not terrible. Servicable.
BG3 has the most insanely awful writing and plot I've ever seen in a video game. I am not exaggerating or using hyperbole. It's wall-to-wall cringe from the very start of the game until the very end of the game, from that particular brand of leftoid millennial/gen x Joss Whedon Marvel quippy TV show watching bullshit. It's extremely immersion-breaking, out of place, and fucking stupid. You will literally roll your eyes while playing BG3.
Doom had a better plot and writing than BG3. Dawn of War had a better plot and writing than BG3. Diablo 1 had a better plot and writing than BG3. Games without any plot and writing have better plots and writing by default, because something that's average or forgettable is less bad than something that's in-your-face retarded and terrible.
Anyone that would ever, even infinitesimally, praise the plot and writing of BG3 immediately reveals themselves irrevocably to have absolutely trash-tier and inexorably, aggressively Wrong opinions on video games. The only thing that a reasonable human being could say about it was "Yeah, the writing and plot sure were shitty, but I still had fun and enjoyed the tactical combat and the level design" or whatever. Then, even if I may disagree with their overall conclusions, I can still recognize that I'm speaking to a sentient human being.
The more games try to focus on the plot and writing, the shittier they get. Less is more. It's supposed to be there and get out of the way, not detract from the overall experience and break your audience's suspension of disbelief. Get the fuck out of here with your garbage donut steel OC "companions". Include full custom party creation as the intended and default single-player experience that doesn't require janky or tedious workarounds. Respect your players.

>>3943166
>Bg3 has the most insanely awful writing and plot I've ever seen in a video game

The majority of gamers disagree with this opinion. Your outnumbered 99 to 1 and the "1" is 4chan. Good luck with that. Have fun jerking yourself and other anons on this take.

>>3943368
>The majority of gamers disagree with this opinion. Your outnumbered
Stopped reading here. Is this the final form of the BG3 fanboy?

>>3943375
>Is this the final form of the BG3 fanboy?
refer to >>3942763

>>3943375

>Stopped reading here.

Newfag? Thats only a good "gotcha" line when responding to a longer post. It loses any value and meaning in response to a very short post like mine.

It just makes you look kind of well... silly

Perhaps if most EA players weren't faggots Larian wouldn't have wasted time rewriting Shart, Tav being what he is, reducing Dark Urges shenanigans, trying to rewrite the guardian.

>>3943368
>the "1" is 4chan
so you agree with him?

>>3943427
The 1% is on 4chan, though not everyone on 4chan is in the 1%.

Ya'll are really out here going for low IQ "gotchas"
>>3943375
>>3943377

>>3943452
so you're just making shit up.
>Ya'll
it's spell "y'all", the apostrophe goes where the letters disappear, so you all becomes y'all.

>>3943475
Another low IQ gotcha. A classic one, grammar/spelling police. I'm sloppily typing on my phone, I don't care enough about you or the other kids on here to make sure every letter is correct.

Yall truly have no legitimate reason or countargument to the claim that BG3 is a masterclass in writing. Having no legs to stand on, you resort to "gotchas" is a desperate attempt to prove your point without actual arguments.
Come back when you have something substantive to add to the conversation.

>>3943507
first you must establish it's a masterclass in writing with specific examples. all you are making is a specious claim, which can be denied outright in the same vein.
>Yall
i made you write this. lol

>>3938887
Larian has their issues but owlcat games are genuinely miserable to play.

>>3943410
>Perhaps if most EA players weren't faggots Larian wouldn't have wasted time
EA players didn't ask for any of this. All of the examples you noted are because Larian is stupid and dishonest, and incapable of producing a finished and complete product on time (which is hilarious, because they were self-publishing and were sitting on a giant pile of money from pre-release sales, so they can't even blame an external publisher for forcing them to rush the game to market, only themselves)
>rewriting Shart
Players didn't dislike Shart or the other origin characters, they disliked that all of the characters available in act 1 were evil and edgy cunts, and they wanted a complete cast where one could assemble a good party, or an evil party, or a neutral party, and play through the game with a party that matched one's character's alignment. Larian's response was that they were compelled to frontload the game with all of the evil companions, because this was the only way to get players to playtest the evil party options, as otherwise most players would only pick the good companions and ignore the evil companions. They also stated that don't worry, the final game has a full complement of companions of all alignments, including a full good party. In reality, what we got was what we got (though datamining players found hints of several other planned characters that were cut and never implemented), and instead, Larian quietly rewrote almost all of the origin characters to be softer and more malleable, i.e. bland and with less conviction and personality. Wyll in particular had his entire backstory changed.
>trying to rewrite the guardian
There was no "guardian", there was just Daisy the dream visitor, and Daisy was far more clever and interesting than what we got. Larian rewrote this because they thought the surprise was ruined and everyone already knew the twist with Daisy. The "guardian" was only implemented immediately before launch.

>>3939090
Only if you are a midwit.

>>3939104
I don’t know, when are you going to heckin’ throw the sausage at the enemy? Before given the widdle pet doggo some scritchies after you fuck a bear and get pegged by Karlach before she leaves you for the black guy?

>>3944095
What the hell???

>>3944444
Sorry, I don't speak fags. Incredible digits though.

Does /vrpg/ think it's special for being contrarian towards BG3?

>>3944678
>Does /vrpg/ think it's special for being contrarian towards BG3?
/vrpg/ is not one person, you'll find many deluded fanboys who insist on denying that game's every fault, to the hilt, as well.
Aside from that, it's the mark of a small mind to be unable to entertain the possibility of someone sincerely and honestly disagreeing with you on any given subject, and to project your own bad faith onto anyone who does so. I bet you talk about how your opinions are "objectively correct" too, lmao

File: x-banner.png.1ed6fc394635(...).png (2.02 MB, 1920x800)

2.02 MB PNG

Owlcat is weird, niched. Larian is specified but popular-which invites trouble

Pic is unrelated though, I just love Top down games

>>3944682
I've interacted with enough BG3 haters to learn all of their arguments at this point. It generally boils down to

>Le romance garbage
>Le LGBT propaganda
>Le too much story
>Le unfinished
>Le also too long
>Le original characters slop (let me make my own party!)
>Le cringe woke writing

I think that about sums up all of them. I've never interacted with a BG3 critic whos entire argument wasn't based on 2 or 3 of these 7 points. They're simply grasping at straws because they HATE how fucking kino the game is and are desperate to tear it down and convince everyone its shit.

>it's the mark of a small mind to be unable to entertain the possibility of someone sincerely and honestly disagreeing with you on any given subject, and to project your own bad faith onto anyone who does so
>>3944883
>They're simply grasping at straws because they HATE how fucking kino the game is and are desperate to tear it down and convince everyone its shit.
Looks like you got it all figured out, huh kiddo

>>3944886
Thats correct daddyio

>>3938887
Has Owlcat made a good game yet? I played both of the Pathfinder games and they were awful. They have literally the worst encounter design in any CRPG, hordes of generic buffed mobs just roaming around without rhyme or reason, and the only way they are able to make a boss fight "interesting" is just by having a big dumb generic monster and buffing it into the stratosphere. The writing is extremely millennial and full of fags, cuck bait and loud black girlbosses. And to top it off, they keep polluting everything they do with these worthless little DLCs nobody asked for instead of just making a good expansion to the story.

That's not to say Larian is much better, especially when it comes to their godawful writing. You get the same amount of faggotry, but then you also get the absolute worst sense of humor ever experienced by mankind. At least they're not addicted to DLC and they occasionally have combat encounters that require more tactics than mindless prebuff into tank and spank, so that puts them well ahead of Owlcat at least.

>>3944893
The board is a poisoned ratwell of trash takes and cum guzzling hatorade.

>>3944893
Not really. Rogue trader is kind of okay for the first few hours but turn into mindless turn one alpha nukes soon after.

>>3944883
>haters
lol wiggers
>how fucking kino the game is
That's actually why I find it tiresome. I dislike cinematic dialogue and cutscenes in vidya. Simple as.

>>3944996
Thats not a valid criticism, but it is a valid preference. I can respect that.

>>3945254
>Thats not a valid criticism
Thankfully, the zoomer BG3 fan is here to tell us what reasons are and are not acceptable to criticize the game.

>>3945254
I consider it a valid critique of a video game, but I'd be happy to hear your reasoning why it's not. A game is inherently meant to be played, not watched. Kino is an apt descriptor, passive spectacle.

>>3945277
Kind of dumb, the gameplay to cutscene ratio is sky-high in the game.

>>3945353
I know you think that, because you can't accept honest critique. But BG3 has 174 hours of cutscenes. This is a fact. Do you still feel clever?

>>3945364
Yes, that's due to all the possible variations on game progress. An average playthrough has probably somewhere between 10-20 hours of cutscenes. Probably only like 2 hours on a critical path no/low rest playthrough.

>>3945368
For an average playthrough where you try to experience the fully game, you're looking at 30 hours easy. This is spread over every single conversation and long rests beat you over the head with tedious interpersonal drama in shot-reverse-shot style. As someone who doesn't not watch TV shows, I find the delivery off-putting and would prefer to simply read and engage with my imagination rather than being constrained to cinematic perspectives that disrupt the pacing.

>>3945370
Actually another way would be to keep the camera zoomed out and under my control during cutscenes. I think I'd prefer that too.

>>3945370
I don't think the conversations should count really, you are technically still in gameplay during those.

>>3945373
For you, it's a reward, because you like TV show dialogue, you like picking dialogue options and seeing people chatter in cinematic view. For me it's not. This isn't just a simple preference though, my "not liking it" lets me see those scenes as the time waster they are, so the critique is in how the game presents itself design wise, there's a trade off, things are lost with this presentation. I still enjoyed the fights, don't get me wrong, but the game isn't something I'll play over and over.

>>3945376
No, I personally play without sound and mash through dialogue in every game because I'm too impatient to wait for the voice actors, my point is just that the game isn't particularly cutscene-heavy or cinematic compared to its competitors. In some ways it might even be less so, since I can think of only one instance where the game uses story and gameplay segregation (Ketheric rooftop fight invulnerability phase), while stuff like that is standard in basically every other RPG.

>>3945388
It's entirely more cinematic that previous generations of RPGs. The imagination is replaced by actors and motion capped performances. It's closer to Mass Effect.

>>3945389
>t's entirely more cinematic that previous generations of RPGs
More than early 90s and late 90s to early 00s, but less so than mid-00s like Dragon Age and Mass Effect, where almost nothing is resolved in gameplay.

>>3945390
I don't like those games either, or Witcher 3 or Fallout 4. Same reasoning, bad presentation. Part of the move into cinematic experiences for TV show enthusiasts. Gameplay broken up by performance.

>>3945391
It doesn't really matter as long as you can skip it. I also think BG3 is on the better end of this as almost everything can be resolved in gameplay alone. For comparison, I've been playing Rogue Trader lately, and it's got way more instances of the game just suddenly not letting you progress in order to play a cutscene and enter a new phase of the fight, along with almost every skill check just simply leading to your character performing an action in a cutscene.

>>3945393
I think refusing to engage with the design of the game doesn't negate the criticism of it. Mashing through dialogue with choppy presentation feels bad. I have no idea why you are arguing with me about this.

>>3945393
Ah, I think the thing you are missing is that the cinematic dialogue is gameplay but being gameplay doesn't alleviate the sense of watching a TV show.

>>3945397
>>3945394
But that's the thing, the game has comparatively fewer mandatory dialogue and cutscene bits next to its contemporaries.

>>3945277
Sure, I'll give you my perspective on why its not a valid criticism.

>A game is inherently meant to be played not watched

I think this may have been true a long time ago. However I think its fair to say that the status qou shifted on that point around 2005 or so. "Story games" or "movie games" have been a prominent genre for a very long time. It just seems like "movie games" are not your thing.

This is what I mean by preference vs criticism.

Its one thing to look at a work of art and say "this is an 'objective flaw'".. its another to say "its well executed for what it is, its just not my thing".

Its sort of like being a movie critic and going to see the latest horror flick, and then writing a review saying "it was too scary, I don't like horror movies". Its like okay but, thats the genre its not a problem with the movie per say, its simple a preferential thing.

Something that I think would be a genuinely valid criticism of bg3 is for instance would be the premature level cap. I think I got to the max level 25 hours before beating the game. I would argue thats an objective problem with the game.

>>3945388
>my point is just that the game isn't particularly cutscene-heavy or cinematic compared to its competitors. In some ways it might even be less so
You’re wrong. The developers intentionally went out of their way to make a cinematic cutscene-heavy experience. This is why they spent all that money on motion capture, facial animations, and full voice acting. As the other anon noted, they literally bragged about the high number of hours of cutscene in the game, and advertised this as a positive selling point.

>>3945277

Also I'm not that guy, hes kinda being douchey
>>3945353

These are my posts
>>3945254
>>3945437

Insert Aliens vs. Predator tagline here.

>>3945437
A cinematic veneer over every single dialogue is an objective aspect of the game design and viewing a loss of the theater of mind and an interruption in the presentation and pacing of the game by turning it into a static performance in TV show mode is an objective observation of the reality of the game's execution. This is not some inherent feature or requirement of video games and certainly not of RPGs, it's a conscious choice by the developer that comes with pros and cons.
You're simply wrong about what valid criticism is and what the "status quo" is matters not.

>Something that I think would be a genuinely valid criticism of bg3 is for instance would be the premature level cap. I think I got to the max level 25 hours before beating the game. I would argue thats an objective problem with the game.
I could argue that's a preference, since fully allowing the player to experience max level is objectively better than something like WotR where you get your final Mythic powers right before the end of the game.

>>3945563
There's a hidden element here that your missing with regard to both of your points. In an absolute sense, all preferences can be objective criticism and all objective criticism could simply be preference. There's not a hard line in-between the two. Its more of a spectrum that overlaps.

Opinions tend to lean more one way or the other.

My use of "objective criticism" vs "preference" is a relative device used categorize or paint an opinion about something. In this case BG3. I'm not being a literalist, but a generalist.

Generally speaking your opinion about the cutscenes, stems more* from a preference than an observation of an objective flaw. The pacing is actually quite excellent (imo) in BG3. The cutscenes and dialogue just add to it by giving more breathing room in-between combat.

I could be wrong about this, but I'd venture to guess that you don't like cutscene-heavy games in general. That you generally prefer those scenes to be cut and have more "game". If so, it would just prove my point even more. You simply don't like the "type" of game that BG3 is.

What did you think about Witcher 3, too many cutscenes?

>>3945800
I'm glad you conceded that my criticism was valid, that's more reasonable.

It's not simply about the scenes it's about the presentation, shot-reverse-shot conversations in TV show style. This is a method of presentation and it takes one out of the sense of playing the game because this style is directly drawn from cinema and television. Like, I don't like Fallout 4 by any means but the incorporation of that toggle to turn off the cinematic dialogue was actually pretty good. I also don't mind scenes that allow me to read and use my imagination.

Your overall point here is flawed, because I'm directly criticizing the method of presentation because it has implicit baggage. It's not just "you don't like cutscene heavy games".

>>3939090
Dude your brain is melting.
I might like BG3 but the plot holes and wasted potential is ABSURD.

>>3939133
I like mine nonstandard
Non binary
Etc

>>3938887
i loved kingmaker and enjoyed rogue trader. every larian game i tried got boring after a few chapters. so i vote owlcat

>>3945829

>Your overall point here is flawed, because I'm directly criticizing the method of presentation because it has implicit baggage. It's not just "you don't like cutscene heavy games".

Ahhh I see what your getting at here. I see the tv show style as a strength, a light use of basic cinematography 101 to shake up the monotony of staring at one character model while they speak. I don't see how it affects pacing though? The "camera" cutting back and forth in-between your character and the npcs is pretty snappy and quick. The element your critiquing doesn't really slow things down, it just shakes up the monotony.

The alternative is that all the scenes in BG3 were shot "Skyrim style" and you simply looked at the character while they dumped heavy amounts of dialogue on you. Even if it was "shot" in that style, is would have little to no bearing on the pacing of the dialogue scenes.

There's some brief introductory cinematography amd closing cinematography that slows things down a little bit, but that's quite light and sparse compared to the snapping back and forth cinematography. The "tv show style".

Is the issue more that their is just too much dialogue in general? If so were wrapping right back around to

>A game where dialogue is expressed through cutscenes

>Too much dialogue

>Too much cutscenes

>The problem is that its cutscene heavy

If its simply a matter of being "taken out of it" by the style, that seems more like critique of dialogue heavy rpgs in general. Bethesda games are very* light on dialogue compared to say Mass Effect 1/2/3 Witcher 2/3 BG3. The only dialogue heavy fully voice acted RPGs I can think of that don't utilize the snap by snap tv show style when making decisions are games in first person, like Cyberpunk or KCD.

When you have a game with as much dialogue and voice acting as say BG3 or W3 things become really stale really fast if you don't utilize any basic cinematography in cutscenes.

>>3945895
>that seems more like critique of dialogue heavy rpgs in general
It isn't, because the method compounds the problems and the quantity can vary. You're right that it's a confluence of issues, but leaning towards TV show performance as if that's the only way to present dialogue isn't cutting it for me. Imagine controlling the camera yourself. Why does the scene have to be fed to you? Why does everything have to be acted out? This is a video game using a cinematic format, it has flaws, it's not the only possibility, it's just the only one you can see due to your preferences and industry standards, inherited from television.

>>3938918
This
/thread

>>3938918
Correct, but I'd say Owlcat is shittier.
>Ships unfinished games that you need cheats to even finish
>One-note companions, and even the non-one-note ones are bad because they cease existing past their questlines
>Awful tacked on management mechanics making games painful to replay
>Generally uninteresting encounter and area design for a second playthrough
>Each game is worse than the previous one

>>3944893
you got filtered

>>3945908
>but leaning towards TV show performance as if that's the only way to present dialogue isn't cutting it for me

Its not the only way per se* its just the appropriate way for telling a cinematic movie-like story.

>Imagine controlling the camera yourself

That sounds like it would be extremely tedious and get old very* fast. I don't want to control a camera in every cutscene, that would be very burdensome. I want to relax and enjoy in a cutscene, not micromanage a fucking camera trying to get the best angle at all times. I have to do that enough playing modded Skyrim porn.

Respectfully, this statement makes you sound extremely* autistic and a bit like a control freak.

>Why does everything have to he acted out

I can genuinely see this, but again its more of a preference for the type of thing it is, then the way* that thing is executed. I think there is a place for games like pathfinder where the "acting" is done trough textbox narration. I enjoy that, I like reading and read alot of fantasy.

But BG3 just isn't that type of game. Its more of an interactive CRPG movie-game, for what its going for its quite beautifully executed. I think thats the part your missing.

>>3946023
> its just the appropriate way for telling a cinematic movie-like story.
No, it's to have dedicated cutscenes for the movie-like elements. You know... like every decent RPG?
>I want to relax and enjoy in a cutscene, not micromanage
Go watch a movie zoomer, also lol at the last part you're playing a crpg you dumbfuck
>bit like a control freak
it's just free cam toggle you faggot
>for what its going for its quite beautifully executed
the world is pig ugly and characters are WoW clones instead of authentic dnd like bg1 and bg2

>>3939173
5e would be fine but bg3 is actually a shitty homebrew

>>3946023
>I want to relax and enjoy in a cutscene
You don't want to play.
>but again its more of a preference for the type of thing it is, then the way* that thing is executed
You don't understand criticism. I can criticize a method of delivery, there's nothing without cost. You should walk away from this, you're just acting foolish.

>>3946120
>you know like every decent rpg?

Wow! Good point! All the games I can think of that use the television style cinematography for dialogue scenes well... they're really all dogshit.

>Mass Effect 1
>Mass Effect 2
>Mass Effect 3
>Dragon Age Origins
>Witcher 2
>Witcher 3


>Its a freecam toggle you faggot

U know what your completely right. I never even considered how riveting it would feel to control a freecamera and seek out my own camera angles from cutscene to cutscene. Thats really what BG3 was missing. What a dogshit game, If only it had that freecamera. Am I right?

>Also your playing a crpg you dumbfuck

You know what? Thats right! How did I forget I was playing a crpg!

>The world is pig ugly

How did I not see that? It should really just look like BG2 shouldn't it? I mean that game TOTALLY doesn't look like shit.

>And characters are WoW clones instead of authentic dnd like bg1 and 2

It was right in front of me all along! The BG3 characters are really just shallow one-note cardboard cutouts. They should really be like the emotionally complex and multi-dimensional characters from BG1 and 2. They had so much depth and dynamism to them!

>>3946166
>You don't understand criticism.

I don't!

>I can criticize a method of delivery, there's nothing without cost.

Your right! The entire action rpg genre is dogshit! The action method of combat delivery just takes away the tactical element of the gameplay! All rpgs should be RTwP or Turn Based!


You should walk away from this, you're just acting foolish.

BLITZY DA! BLITZY DO! I'M A FOOL! HOW ABOUT YOU!

>>3946183
>The BG3 characters are really just shallow one-note cardboard cutouts. They should really be like the emotionally complex and multi-dimensional characters from BG1 and 2. They had so much depth and dynamism to them!
While BG1's characters were shallow one-note cardboard cutouts, your sarcastic post is unironically correct re: BG2. The emotional depth and complexity of BG2's characters far exceeds that of BG3. This is not because BG2's characters are great, but because BG3's characters are absolutely terrible.

>>3946192
>The emotional depth and complexity of BG2's characters far exceeds that of BG3.

Ur cute, lol

>>3946185
Action combat does fight against the principles of RPG combat. Objectively.
You don't understand criticism, you're trying to turn disagreement on arguable principles into a scene from the Big Lebowski.

>>3946224
Ur adorable, but you kind of outted yourself as a bit of a tard, I've lost interest

i thought bg3 was ok

>>3946265
Sure, sure.

GW should have given a 40k license to Lairan.

>>3938887
Divinity Original Sin is one of my favourite games, but so is Rogue Trader. I didn't like DoS 2 or BG3. Pathfinder games are good. So I vote Owlcat.

>>3946192
The only characters from BG2 who have any complexity to them is Jan Jansen (if you do his personal quest), Korgan (especially if you have Mazzy too), Cernd and Anomen.

getting thru wotr is pain. i'm close to the finish but so many times i play the game i just get distracted and lose focus and leave the game running in the background for hours.

i never have this problem, its just with WOTR in specific that i just get so insanely bored and i just skip 90% of the text without reading. with DoS2 i skipped maybe 20% at most. im not even an ADD zoomies ive sat thru 100hr+ VNs but the writing is just so uninspired im almost in tears.

and dont know what it is but the game is also so easy compared to kingmaker. i got tired of the combat by around half way thru and just dropped difficulty to normal but in act3 i alrdy had 40ac+ on 2 characters and 35+ on 2 characters, the balancing is just crazy bad. on core the game is easy but as soon as you go up to core +1 the enemies all have +40 attack suddently and 50 ac.

if i could drop games i would love to do it here but my autism prevents me, so instead i have to trudge thru this game while willing it to end.

>>3947938
Its becauze pathfinder players are trannies that jack off to big numbers and the more repetetive it is the more it gratifies the fact that they spent 100 hours making the numbers bigger

You are psychologically healthy and pathfinder players are not

>>3947938
>and dont know what it is but the game is also so easy compared to kingmaker
you don't? lol, what a retard.
>>3947962
so we've gone to a tranny being synonymous with sperg now? lol, newfags.

>>3938887
>buildslop vs barrelslop

>>3947938
>and dont know what it is
Almost every single battle is filler.
Class building is choosing the same generic dnd archetype with stupid shit that sounds great but is literally the same archetype with minimum difference.
The kingbuilding aspect is underbaked, this goes for every single system in kingmaker and wort minus combat.
Writing is atrocious.

Kingmaker makes toee kobolds looks like a genius work of art.That is impressive.

>>3948013
>the same archetype with minimum difference.
Those minor differences compound fast across levels and six team members. Of course it doesn't matter much if you play on a lower difficulty, but on hard and especially on unfair you must squeeze every little bit out of every character, and I find that quite fun.

>>3948033
Unfair, true but you can still go through hard without much effort.

>>3947965
>so we've gone to a tranny being synonymous with sperg now? lol, newfags.
No one remembers the etymology of troon.

>>3948170
now a goon is someone who edges a lot, so it's no wonder.
kids love to apply terms way too broadly and undermine their effect, everything being "trannyshit", like modding or speedrunning and now even number go up autism, is retarded.

Inxile (Wasteland 3 and Clockwork Revolution), Obsidian (Avowed and TOW2), Bethesda (Starfield), and Playground Games (Fable reboot) for me.

>>3947938
You liked the DOS2 writing but you can't pay attention to the Wrath writing???
Either you're lying or you need to make an appointment with your neurologist to get a brain scan immediately.

>>3947174
And Keldorn.

>>3953963
Bait used to be believable