Why are tons of people making snes-style rpgs but no one seems to be making 1991-style crpgs? Westwood Studios, Eye of the Beholder 2 The Legend of Darkmoon, this kind of thing.
>>3940185Because they were all replaced by IE titles which became the blueprint for modern RPG.
>>3940187FF7 being on a different engine than FF6 does not stop people from making snes-likes.
>>3940185That would require that they actually play games instead of just watching youtube videos about people talking about them.
>>3940185Japan is still making new Wizardry games and Wizardry clones.
>>3940189because it's is more of a shorthand for "we went from first-person blobbers to rtwp isometric rpgs"
>>3940185Because it's easier
>>3940185>snes-style rpgsyou mean rpgmakerslop
>>3940187It's not like peopke are making baldur's gate 2 clones either, there's no "infinityenginemaker mv"
>>3940185Blobbers are still somewhat common but very niche. They'll always be less popular than top-down or full 3d games.
>>3940366>It's not like peopke are making baldur's gate 2 clones eitherThe majority of CRPGs in the past 25 years are Baldur's Gate 2 clones. It marked the transition of traditional CRPGs with full party creation and generic party members with little personality or characterization, and shifted to a smaller roster of more fleshed-out characters with inter-party banter, personal quests, dialogue trees, and romances.
>>3940445The majority of CRPGs in the past 25 years are Baldur's Gate 2 clones because they have fleshed out dialogue and charactersis... is that supposed to be revolutionary or something. FFIV had fleshed out characters and dialogue nearly 10 years before BG2. Having branching choices and depth does not make something a clone of Baldur's Gate games. NWN and NWN 2 aren't clones nor are the Dragon Age games nor are the Bethesda games. Pillars of Eternity is the only clone out there because it imitates the isometric style. By contrast there's tons of rpgmaker games out there that imitate the snes-era jrpg like Chrono Trigger or pre-PS1 Final Fantasy.
>>3940366>>3940445You're both wrong simply because you're using "clones". Sure, they're not literal 1:1 copies of BG2, but you can definitely tell which blueprint was used from that point onward.
>>3940534FF7's?
>>3940366And its a good thing there isn't such an engine. Blobbers and JRPGs are copied because the gameplay loop is actually good, not RTWP trash which is one of the worst combat systems ever conceived in gaming.Literally just worst of both worlds: the system.
>>3940298>posts a game that came out 20 years ago
>>3941192>Blobbers and JRPGs are copied becausethey are easy to create by hack devs using middlewaret. RTwP hater
>>3941222And you're saying RTWP isn't easy? I literally work in programming why the hell do you think that dogshit system is that substantially harder to copy?
>>3940185Try Skald.Otherwise, the EOTB formula was perfected with Grimrock 2, so making any more games of that style is pointless.
>>3941228What's your most recent infinity engine inspired game?
>>3941192>RTWPWhy does /vrpg/ pretend to have strong feelings about this?
>>3941228can you read bro? where da middleware for rtwp at?
>>3941324>>3941335I'm not saying that I directly know of any, I was talking about the programming side of it. There is nothing hard to program about RTWP, hell I could even make a primitive one just to demonstrate and outline why that's the case.As for me naming indie ones I don't know and don't care which results in me not following them. That however does not point to anything about the actual complexity of the RTWP combat system. Even back in the 90s listen to Tim Cain or someone the teams were small as fuck so indies could make one.
>>3941327I don't know what the case is for other people but for me its because it feels like everything just is prep work, then you start the battle and there is literally 0 proper tactics during the actual combat itself. You basically just watch a glorified autobattler.
>>3941352>There is nothing hard to programbut you do have to program.the point i'm making is that you see more of the games where there are already frameworks for people to put a game together fairly simply from.
>>3941378I get that, but it just sounded like there was an implication that RTWP as a system is hard to make and that's why there's engines and presets for one and not for the other.Also I don't really want to clog up OP's thread further as he's talking about something completely different and the discussion got sidetracked quite a bit.I do also wish there were more games like Eye of the Beholder.
>>3941381>it just sounded like there was an implication that RTWP as a system is hard to makeRTwP system is a vastly harder to design for, because it's so open-ended. An actual game is much more complex to design and implement in RTwP than these other systems. It's a fundamentally more challenging system to work with than the "Top-down 2D RPG" or "grid-movement blobber" formats. Every area needs to be hand-crafted in 3D (pre-rendered or not) along with a system for environmental interactions. Every ability needs to be implemented with timing and hitboxes in addition to all the other standard RPG stats and formulas. Every combat unit on the field that isn't directly player-controlled needs much more sophisticated AI than is necessary for "Wizardry-style combat" or "Dungeon Master-style combat."RTwP is not a gameplay formula, it's just a low-level foundation. A real-time system and a 3D environment gives you near-infinite freedom and flexibility to design gameplay and content, but that also means it's all on you, the dev, to make it something that's good and not shit. Most people who criticize rtwp are retarded and don't even understand this. They point at a some flaws in one of the tiny handful of RTwP games that have ever been made, and somehow conclude they don't like RTwP.Meanwhile, the 2D JRPG and Blobber genres have very clear formulas. Devs inherit a large number of refined conventions to choose from and build on, that players understand and expect, allowing them to focus on custom content and (hopefully) some specific unique mechanics. With RTwP, you inherit almost nothing.
>>3941474>Most people who criticize rtwp are retarded and don't even understand this. They point at a some flaws in one of the tiny handful of RTwP games that have ever been made, and somehow conclude they don't like RTwP.Imo, as a RTWP critic, it’s a case of shit or get off the pot. Ditch the “with pause” and commit to making it fully real time. Otherwise, make it turn based.
>>3941327People get up in arms over Final Fantasy abandoning the turn-based system. Nobody got up in arms when crpgs abandoned RTwP over whatever combat system titles like TES, Dragon Age etc. have.
>>3941485>Imo, as a RTWP critic, it’s a case of shit or get off the pot. Ditch the “with pause” and commit to making it fully real time. Otherwise, make it turn based.A turn-based game cannot model everything that an RTwP system can. A turn-based game cannot handle 10 different units moving in 10 different directions all at the same time, without specifically hard-coding some specific rule for each kind of simultaneous movement scenario you want to model. Meanwhile, RTwP just handles it naturally and intuitively.Meanwhile, a fully real-time game, with no pause, changes the focus from tactical decision making on behalf of units (aka 'roleplaying'), to speed and mechanical skill at execution. The point of adding a pause feature to an otherwise real-time gameplay model is to allow fully "accurate" roleplaying of the characters on the field. The point is to allow a single player to make reasonable decisions for a modestly large number of characters capable of complex actions. Inevitably, you see that full real-time games go in one of the following directions:1. Single-character with primarily AI-driven companions (or no companions)2. Multi-player (MMOs)3. Minimization of meaningful 2D or 3D tactical dynamics.4. Simplification of units with a shift into more RTS style gameplay.
>>3941517>Single franchise>vs>'crpgs'
>>3940185Westwood Studios had pinnacle level professional pixel art. You can't replicate that with Johnny Shut-in as your art guy.
>>3941485the sole function of rtwp should be autistic simulation games like 7.62mm because rtwp allows the infinite command depth of TB without inheriting all the simplifications and contrivances. And autistic simulations can be as tedious and awkward as neededAnd gun combat naturally fits rtwp much better than melee because it's not as mouthfucked by pathing
RTWP is bad garbage that died because it was bad garbage.
>>3941547This. RTwP is perfect for tactical squad combat games, not so much for full-blown RPGs.
>>3941538Surprisingly good post for /vrpg/. Respect.>Meanwhile, a fully real-time game, with no pause, changes the focus from tactical decision making on behalf of units (aka 'roleplaying'), to speed and mechanical skill at execution.I have noticed myself relying on easily executed, low effort routine tactics, if an option to take my time isn't there. Meaning I'm less likely to try interesting tactics, if they're riskier to attempt.Dragon Age Origins was awesome. Those basic routine commands could be mostly automated, and pausing the game for more advanced shit was always an option.I played Starcraft campaign the other day and wished it had a pause. There's something satisfying about setting up multiple commands and unleashing them all at once.
>>3941474>>3941538Just because you write more eloquently to defend a garbage system does not make the system less garbage, anon. RTWP deserves the brutal rape and death that happened to it.We are all happier.
>>3940185Legend of Grimrock is the closest to a good modern interpretation of that genre. Thank god it wasn't turnbased
>>3941590I'm not a very eloquent writer, I just made points that nobody who irrationally hates rtwp can answer.
>>3940185WRPGs suck is why.
>>3941626I can, but you don't deserve the time and effort. Just play your shitty RTWP, I know deep down inside you know how shitty and boring the system is and proper hardcore tactical systems like Jagged Alliance 2 are too much for your brain to handle.
>>3941543Final Fantasy IS turn-based combat
>>3941327I hated RTwP when it was on top so being vindicated is pretty cool. And now RTwP defenses in CRPG discussions are such insanely dishonest cope rhetoric that I hate it twice as much as I originally did.
>>3940185There was several grid dungeon crawlers announced in last few months.Not sure I want to play any more tho, I loved EoB II and I and Dungeon Master but it's not something I want to play forever.Everyone should play the Albion game from 1994 BTW.
>>3941609Not really. Grimrock is a dungeon crawler. People forget blobbers were outright RPGs of their time with all the customary shit like towns and whatnot.
>>3941703No, you can't. There's zero chance you have valid counter-argument.
>>3941994Alright anon picture this.I am a genius and you are some stupid ghetto nigger. I know, no matter how well I explain the very first lesson of quantum physics, you won't get it.I'm 100% right in everything I will teach you, but your stupid nigger brain will not be capable of comprehending it and will just return to robbing cars or whatever. Is it worth it to even bother? What do I gain? Nothing, so just stick that shitty RTWP system up your ass and have fun because its the only system you will ever understand. You literally would not be able to get out of the first room of Wizardry IV.
>>3942022Lol how can you write out narcissistic fantasy like this and not feel shame? The things you see online.. not even vidya discussion is safe
>>3942042Ok, post a sped up webm of you beating the first room of Wizardry IV then.
