EXP is an outdated and obsolete mechanic. Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanics, not grinding.
>>3965618To some degree I can agree but I also found EXP to have potential to be played around with.Fire Emblem games for example, forces you to decide which unit should be fed EXP. And absolutely not let Jagens take those away from you.
>>3965619I'll admit that's a rare example of a game that does it right since it's technically a limited resource due to battles being do-or-die.
>>3965618>Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanics, not grinding.This is a significant part of what allows Zelda to be better than the entire RPG genre. It's a better realization of what RPGs ought to be doing that doesn't make the same mistakes.
>>3965618>Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanicsPerhaps rewarded with some sort of… experience… points?
>>3965632Equipment, abilities, party members, classes, items, literally anything beyond "This number makes these numbers go up". Take some notes from SaGa for example.
>>3965653>abilities>classesWhat if there were some sort of arbitrary quantifiable unit to track progression towards these things?
>>3965618Fighting enemies IS "engaging with the mechanics" you stupid niggerStop giving XP for combat and you just incentivize speedrun bullshit to skip encounters, aka not engaging with the mechanics
>>3965618Mate, you haven't had to grind the SNES. Mind you "no grinding" doesn't mean "I can skip all combat except bosses".
if i remember correctly, Pillars of Eternity only gives exp for quests, filling in the map, and bestiary entries, so you can't grind respawning enemies for levelsand being a faux-d&d crpg, leveling gave you options to expand and refine your build rather than just being a direct power increase
>>3965657Quests to find teachers, unlocking through story progression, skills being tied to weapons and equipment?
>>3965618That's not a bad idea. I agree with you.
>>3965632>>3965709>"This number makes these numbers go up"That's literally how video games work on a fundamental level, retard. What do you think happens in this hypothetical game where you get new shit by finishing quests or talking to the right NPCs? Under the hood it's all making a number go up, or giving you more ways to make enemy numbers go down. Any "innovation" you come up with is just going to accomplish the exact same thing as experience points but with extra steps>b-but GRINDING!You know you don't HAVE to have infinite random encounters or respawning enemies, right? The player is only going to be able to get as much XP as you let them, if you don't want your players grinding you can just literally make it impossible to do.
There's a reason why Chrono Cross is the only game to use its progression system. Reinventing the wheel just tends to leave you with a cart that can't go anywhere.
>>3965653>Equipment, abilities, party members, classes, itemsDepends on how you do it but those seem to be sidegrades (don't have to be to be fair), where lvl up is an upgrade.Sidegrade is not always useful, upgrade is.It may seem like the point but you swap "damage and hp inflation" to "Another 'reward' that I won't use".Elden Ring has both. When I level up it's nice, when I find some incantation not for me it's like spitting in my face (incantation that is useful does feel good of course)If you want to make those upgrades and you give me stronger and stronger equipment and abilities, the power curve would be out of control, unless there is only 1 way to play, I guess than it would make sense.Only game that comes to my mind and has done upgrades without levels is Sekiro.
>>3965618whatever you say faggot keep away from my series then if you're this retarded
>>3965619There's nothing wrong with giving Jagens some exp.
Maybe you could just play different genres of games from time to time instead?
>>3966098>There's nothing wrong with giving Jagens some exp.Yeah let's give Marcus all the EXP. Great advice.
>>3965619>>3966098>>3966170>some>alloverfeeding your jeigan is a noob trapcompletely benching your jeigan in the earlygame is also a noob trapanyone who's competent at playing Hector Hard Mode will tell you (correctly) that Marcus is one of the most important units in the game
>>3965659>Stop giving XP for combat and you just incentivize speedrun bullshit to skip encounters, aka not engaging with the mechanics>clever ways of handling an obstacle shouldn't be rewarded so I can grind like an MMORPGSpergtastic argument.
>>3966061>DisgaeaYou are brown.
>>3965618What is it with these "X is an outdated concept" mentioning core elements of the RPG genre? If you don't like RPGs just play a different type of game. Leave RPGs alone for those of us who enjoy these games.
>>3966490>Leave RPGs alone for those of us who enjoy these games.I absolutely refuse to. RPGs have trashed the quality of gameplay of most turn based games so that they cater to tards. This needs to be fixed.
>>3966490We can't just have threads. Every thread must be lousy rage bait.
>>3966210I just need him there to act as a barrier/funnel to get enemies to attack the units I actually plan to use.
>>3966682If you genuinely want to change opinions, consider starting an OP with reasoning behind claims, rather than simply making inflammatory statements.>EXP is an outdated and obsolete mechanic.Why?>Games should reward exploration, completion, and engaging with the mechanics, not grinding.Why?Etc.
>>3966490You can love something while recognizing its faults.
>>3966490>>3965622>>3965653These fags just want to play Zelda, seeing numbers on the screen triggers them because they are low IQ. Rather than just accepting that they don't enjoy RPGs and moving on to games more their taste they stamp their feet and demand the entire genre change to accommodate them. Skyrim was designed for this exact audience btw.
>>3967045>seeing numbers on the screen triggers them because they are low IQ. >they stamp their feet and demand the entire genre change to accommodate them. >Skyrim was designed for this exact audienceHave you ever modded Skyrim to put floating damage numbers on screen? It’s great, can’t go back again
Infinity engine games gave exp for everything including combat. Progression systems are fun.
>>3965653Or just reaching story objectives?When I played Witcher 3, the best reward I experienced was finding Ciri. I still choke up at that scene.
>>3967028Yup
>>3967091A story unfolding is definitely a factor that makes me finish a game.
>>3966490OP is an idiot, but you don't NEED exp to have an RPG. I sincerely think every /vrpg/ user needs to read at least one non-DnD /tg/ rulebook in their life, because some people here genuinely can't conceive of RPGs that stray too far from what Gygax made in the 80s.I think posts like OP's are born of people who are essentially reinventing the wheel and can't express it properly. Rather than thinking "What would it be like to not have X feature?" they immediately jump up "X Feature must be removed from all future RPGs". I swear I don't see this zero sum mindset in any other videogame genre.
>>3968295>>3968295>I swear I don't see this zero sum mindset in anyManaged to bait a reply out of you, didn't itWelcome to 4chan
>>3968296At least you admit the thread is bait which was clear to everyone.
>FF7 Rebirth>open world>should we do rare materia, armor and accesories as exploration rewards in optional dungeons and stuff?>nope they are all chadley quest rewards and on the main pathWASTED
>>3968620Chadley IS the challenging optional content, doofus. The Meridian Ocean materia can only be acquired by beating the game's superbosses and duo summon boss fights.
>>3965618I like individual skill levels, like sword proficiency making the character more likely to land blows, and land them squarely or parry incoming attacks when they're using swords, or turn an incoming square blow into a glancing one, or redirecting it from a vital location (head/face/neck) to a non-critical one (shoulder/hip/forearm)I don't like EXP giving character more hit points and damage. HP should basically static and set during character creation, damage should be a function of the character's strength the weapon they're wielding, and how square/glancing the blow was and how vital/noncritical the location they hit was.
>>3966481And then in games that have both, the optimal play is to first bypass the combat encounter, and then going back and fighting all the enemies anyway.
>>3965618If the RPG has some open world or sandbox-y elements: leveling by doing is the best for me. I just enjoy using a skill and seeing my progress as I use it more and more. It also allows for some breaks in your playthrough: for example in Morrowind I always enjoy the moment where I got a good foothold and can start working on skills like Alchemy. Having to go buy the necessary equipment, going around traders for ingredients, exploring the map while being focused on picking up plants instead of just going from point A to point B...If the RPG is somewhat linear, the next best thing in my opinion is the Underrail Oddity system. It removes any issues of "missing" XP from different playstyles (Human Revolution had this problem with stealth and non-lethal giving way more XP) and you can also easily reward exploration. I don't know if any other game has implement such a system but if yes I am curious.After experiencing those two systems it's always a bit of a letdown going back to the old get XP from beating up people or completing quests -> level up a completely unrelated skill
>>3965618Any other reddit-takes Mister r/Imafuckingfaggotpleasefuckmyface ?
>>3965632what about a picture of a lady with her clothes off instead?
>>3965618>gain exp and level up because you talked to people a lot and read some books>now you can wear the heaviest armor and onehand a greatswordno
>>3965618>EXP is an outdated and obsolete mechanicNo its not. It wouldn't be used otherwise. I do want some variety.
Why are people always trying to reinvent the wheel. Some motherfuckers always trying to skate uphill.
>>3970955Because I demand bigger and better hero simulators. I will never be satisfied with inferior hero simulations.
>>3965618SaGa and similar games have been a thing for decades, you know that right?
>>3966490I imagine this thread was made because there's been similar discussions on /tg/. For a long time now RPGs have tracked character progression by kills, but the original rules of DnD had the amount of gold you earn as EXP. It was considered a weird rule until recently, when people tried it and realized it actually allows for significant flexibility and creative strategies. Like you can have your party spec into stealth, or you can bait enemies into attacking each other and not worry about EXP loss. Naturally, people are reconsidering and experimenting with EXP as a concept, and it was only a matter of time until it leaked to vidya RPGs.
>>3965618It's another retarded relic of D&D, along with levelling, classes, hit points, dungeon crawling etc.
Statistics-based character progression is THE pillar of the genre. It's the one thing that ties all flavors of RPG together.
EXP is good actually and its not the games fault youre too retarded to stop yourself from grinding. Just play the fucking game like you say you want to.
>>3965618any game developer that says this then goes on to make a shittier system than a standard exp game, every single time.the only one i ever liked were the gameboy saga games
>>3965618I've been working on a game without EXP and after a while I had to cave and use them anyway.The main thing is that EXP are very flexible. Systems like exploration rewards or resource based power can work, but they require you to adapt the game towards them while experience points don't. Simple example: alchemy themed game where you gain stats from materials. Works fine with one player character, but if you're party based you now have to deal with players funneling all resources to one character.EXP is an abstraction that every player understands, a very granular reward for any activity and an idiot-proof way to make players stronger. In any exploration based progression the delta between good and bad players is much larger and thus you'll have more difficulty tuning the difficulty. And a player might end up frustrated because they missed a key ability in the starting area. In contrast, with EXP you can ensure that players will eventually catch up to your content.Of course you can use EXP simply as the backbone for your other systems. Dragon's Dogma 2 for example has you unlock some classes through a quest and others through meeting teachers, and then later on your ultimate abilities through class quests. But a more common example is equipment: add some horizontal progression to items instead of just bigger number to make the items really interesting, then make some special pieces for quests. That should give you the feeling of meaningful exploration while still letting the dev have the detailed control of player power from EXP.
>>3965622I agree, Zelda relies on mechanically intuitive and enjoyable systems wheras the vast majority of RPG exploit basic arithmetic to make you enjoy them.
>>3970662this is a pretty fair take
>>3965618RPGs without XP aren't new. Betrayal at Krondor didn't have XP or levelling, and it came out in 1993.
>>3965618No, games should reward grinding.
>>3965618IF Level is greater than or equal to the enemy level by 3, THEN EXP equals 0Wow, so hard.
>>3981140>equal to the enemy level by 3
>>3965653If you go that way you'll end up with a puzzle game fast.
>>3965705Poe is killed by the wall of text and nonsensical story and premise in 2.
>>3982063>If you go that way you'll end up with a puzzle game fast.Or strategy
>>3978149>similar gamesLike what
There's already games that don't use EXP. for progression, thing is they're harder to design and most people out there don't have any reason to bother especially since the audience itself doesn't want games that don't use EXP.
>>3982078>they're harder to designNah, Zelda has been doing it for years, it uses hearts and sword upgrades for progress works fine and is arguably easier to design around then giving every monster in the entire game its own exp value and making sure the player doesnt get too little or too much.
>>3982080Zelda is not an RPG in any way or shape
>>3982072Disagree. It'll boil down to rock paper scissors. Feel free to show me a counter example. I made more than 50 systems, I'm pretty sure I correct.
>>3982082What else, action adventure?
>>3982092Explain what you mean by "rock paper scissors"
>>3982099Attack/unit A < A/U B < A/U C < A/U AThink fire beats ice beats water beats fire
>>3982101And if we add more objects to "rock paper scissors"
>>3982103One way to soften it up or to add spice, essentially>It'll boil down to rock paper scissorsThis is by no means a bad thing. The question is what do you want? If you add more options, some flavour and maybe trap choices (actually a nogo imo), you can have a system that has been tried hundreds of times. It's serviceable, but not groundbreaking.
>>3982092>what the fuck did you just say to me, you little bitch? I’m a /vrpg/ anon with over 50 confirmed systems
>>3982129>>3982101>>3982092Is this the same anon?
>>3982130>>3982133Wth
>spend 10 minutes in combat struggling to defeat the enemy with various clever combinations of tactics, buffs and luck.>or click the [persuade] let's not fight dialogue choice>the EXP award should be equivalent for these two things
>>3982199>Spend 10 minutes persuading people through dialogue choices>Level Up!>Put points in Strength and learn Cleave (Combat)
>>3982199Ideally the [persuade] option would be its own game with its own rules thats as fun to interact with as the [fight]. Its a failure of game design that they're not equally satisfying.
I like xp
>>3965618>an outdated and obsolete mechanicexplain whyis chess outdated and obsolete?I think you don't actually understand what games are and look at them as nothing but virtual reality experiences where the point of the mechanics is to simulate real lifenow, the history of games is definitely intertwined with war simulation, so your confusion isn't unfounded. it's just very reductive to limit games to that and consider them as failures because technology has evolved and you can now simulate with less gamey abstractions
>>3982199Not necessarily, but should open other parts of the game. Somehow we still follow 70s design principles of right and wrong choices. See bg3. It wants to be sandbox and open, but a single decision can lock you out of hours of gameplay. One door closes, the other opens.
>>3982233Do you like money and tits, too?
Weapon skill levelling up based on use is a very cool thing, that's what I think
>>3965619I actually hate Fire Emblem's EXP system because it encourages sub-optimal or cheesy gameplay in order to feed exp to a unit. I'd rather the game just award one level for everyone who participated in a battle and just lower jagen stat growth so they naturally fall off.
>>3966170>Bro just don't use your good units! The game doesn't want you to use your good units!Why are FE players so stupid?
>>3982253I like food and ass
>>3965618EXP is just there for the people who can't git gud at actual combat strategy, party composition, and exploration. If you're good at those other things, you'll find equipment and abilities that will allow you to overcome enemies stronger than your level would normally allow. If not, you'll whine like a bitch and grind until you can one-shot everything.The only people who complain about EXP are the shitters who need it.
>>3984985>If you're good at those other things, you'll find equipment and abilities that will allow you to overcome enemies stronger than your level would normally allow.The problem is that there is no convention for this though. If every RPG 'agreed' that 0 EXP/no leveling was possible and acted as an intended hard difficulty for challenge completionists, then this would be fine. But there's no standard for this and so at best you have "well, just don't level TOO MUCH", but nobody agrees on which 'too much' is or how powerful you should be at a given point of a game to be challenging. It's a dumb excuse that lets you go "ha, you were just to overleveled to be challenged" whenever someone beats something without any gigga IQ strategy.
>>3965972And I loved it.Such a shame most gamers have no imagination, we can't have good things while most people are still type 5.They need to see the number go up.
>>3982082>Roleplay as ZeldaWhat now faggot?
>>3982204This, how can these retards not understand the problem?
>>3982199>>3982204>>3986952You tardos should just play a genre you actually like instead of being autistic fucks that want to ruin stuff for other people desu.
Dumb thread premise, didn't read anything, but learn by doing systems (most notably colony ship) have resulted in my belief shifting towards:>EXP as a form of progression is meaninglessAnd instead, that a character's experiences in the game, post-adolescence(post character creation in most cases), should redefine their relationship with said world without directly increasing player power. A character shouldn't generally gain something without losing something else. You can still have vertical power progression via equipment, economy, reputation, etc.
>>3987025>NOOOOOOOOOOO DON'T POINT OUT RETARDED GAME DESIGN>YOU JUST DON'T LIKE THE GENREThanks god most people aren't as retarded as you and things move forward, I bet you think gold as exp was good design too
>>3965618A mechanic I thought of was medals or badges clear a scenario well and get a mid tier silver badge and mid tier stat boosts from it. Later on when you have more badges come back and get the gold version of the badge etc. There is something comfortably mind numbing about grinding and just watching the numbers get bigger though.There has to be some sort of permanent reward for killing an an enemy. Because sometimes it feels like a slog and gold an items are temporary and XP is permanent and feels like a decent consolation, even a small amount.
>>3987044>no everything has to ''''evolve'''' into boring ass ARPG slop where all that matters is minor gear upgrades!!!You're fucking stupid fyi
>>3987377>Anything that doesn't use EXP is "boring ass ARPG slop"Dumb motherfucker, people were already abandoning EXP as a mechanic in the fucking 70's in TTRPGs, stop posting
>>3987385>some guys stopped doing a thing before video games even existed>that means it should never ever be allowed to exist anymore in anything!God, you're so stupid that it's painful. Why are the autistic like this?
>>3987387Stop following with non-sequiturs to save your retarded ass, go back to twitter
>>3987385>people were already abandoning EXP as a mechanic in the fucking 70's in TTRPGs
>>3965618I think XP should all be doled out as an item you can expend as you please across your whole party, like funneling it all into one character or saving some for a new character you know is coming so that you can bring them up to parity immediately. They did this for archetype experience in Metaphor: Refantzio when you have a character who is capped out on their current archetype, so I just let everyone max out their own starting archetype and their respective direct upgrades, then used literally the rest of it to level all the MC's archetypes, not even knowing that there's a great item you get for unlocking all archetypes for him at the time I did it.
>>3987540Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance's bonus experience system was delightful.
