I love a good RTS campaign. What are some good ones? What makes a good RTS campaign? What are some underrated ones? Did Arthas really need to purge that city?
>Did Arthas really need to purge that city?I think it's supposed to the the tragedy of the situation, Everyone in the city is already doomed.
>>2255389What would you do in that situation?
>>2255389>Did Arthas really need to purge that city?Yes.The villagers are already turning into undead, if you do nothing Mal'Ganis just claims them and teleports all of that undead meat away for later use.Losing Uther's and Jaina's faith was bad though, and going to Northrend was when he really fucked up.
>>2255389Short-sighted people will say yesThe wiser will realise the short-term gain of killing the soon-to-be-undead is outweighed by the political damage of killing villagers
>>2255864Political damager is moot when the apocalypse is right at your doorstep, fags like Uther that never compromise end up making everything worse in the end just to satisfy their ego
>>2255797I'd argue that Arthas's only unjustifiably evil act was killing those mercenaries. He could have probably bought their silence, but he betrayed them instead. Everything else before can be justified as those people being doomed anyway and everything after as him being under magic corruption by Frostmourne.
>>2255389>Did Arthas really need to purge that city?Yes. Everyone was plagued on varied levels and those that gone far too far already were turning into zombies.>>2256215>and everything after as him being under magic corruption by Frostmourne.And this makes it extremely jarring since Sylvanas and Ner'zhul gets a pass while Arthas gets none.Then again I don't consider WoW and everything after TFT to be remotely canon.
If I wanted to replay the campaign after all these years, would I be better off if I got Reforged, or should I hunt down (on the high seas, obviously) a copy of the original WCIII?
>>2255389For me, the campaigns from Age of Mythology, Total Annihilation Kingdoms and Heroes 5 were very addictive, I wanted to play to find out what would happen next.Arthas was wrong here. His decision led to a decline in morale and a breakdown in the Alliance forces. He should have listened to the commander-in-chief, his superior commander and, maybe, sought advice from the wizards of Dalaran.
>>2255986Arthas compromised his ideals and look where that landed him
>>2257380I prefer the term "refined." The city was obviously guilty for being full of plebs and needed to be purged. Muradin wasn't even an Equite. Just a pleb midget.
>>2255389>What are some good ones?It's far from the same level as Warcraft III, but I found that Starship Troopers: Terran Command's campaigns are a lot of fun.Last Train Home I can also recommend. It's 50% survival and base management while looking at a cozy train go choo-choo and 50% RTS-lite.>What makes a good RTS campaign?Interesting story. Fun unit balance and mechanics. And different kinds of maps to fight on. I also really like dynamic OST's, soundtracks increasing in intensity depending on how much combat is happening on the screen.>Did Arthas really need to purge that city?Yes
One campaign that stuck with me for years is KUF heroes Walter campaign, especially having played previous game. The plot is very good and game punishes you for trying to be a good guyOther than that classics like World in Conflict which is pure kino. DoW 2 campaign is fun and we need more Diabloid like RTS, especially co-op.
>>2256215>I'd argue that Arthas's only unjustifiably evil act was killing those mercenariesYeah I don't mean to say that going to northrend was evil, just that it was a bad idea.I think 1. Killing and blaming the mercs2. Burning Ships3. Taking Frostmourne and saying he'll pay any price after Muradin's warningWould be his 3 evil acts.Other stuff is more being a hothead and being bad at diplomacy(explaining why the culling needs to happen), not really evil stuff.
>>2256473The latter probably.Mainly just because it's the difference between something like a 32gb install and a 2gb install.Modern wc3, which is just reforged is fine to play, you can just play with old graphics and old maps, so if you happen to have wc3 and have it installed, just booting that up and playing the campaign with the correct settings is fine, but in your case just quickly downloading a 2gb of old wc3 to play the campaign is probably better.
>>2257722>it's just being a 'hothead' to murder peopledon't @ me with "but they will eventually become undead", he didn't have a right to take their last moments of humanity
Magic & Mayhem
>>2257747Why not?
>>2255389Lotr: The Battle for Middle-Earth. Not because the story is good, but because I liked how you could do optional battles for permanent bonuses and it was cool that your army came with you from battle to battle. It's like your whole army is made from hero units by the black gate.
>>2263652A ruler does not kill his own innocent subjects, it is a moral line not to be crossed because that leads down the path of the butcher instead of the protector
strategy games with a good story:warcraft 3command and conqueralpha centauriepic 40k final liberationhomeworldstrategy games with good campaigns:starcraft 2dawn of war 2warhammer dark omenunderrated:heroes of annihilated empiresconstructor/mob ruledeadlockfreedom force
>>2263943BFME 1 is my guilty pleasure, it was just pure lightning in a bottle, and was such a high wall that unfortunately the second game just couldn't overcomepersonally, the good campaign is kinda my fav (tho the evil campaign has some unforgettable moments)personally, I like managing to save Boromir from his death, and seeing him making it all the way from Rohan, Gondor and finally to the Black Gates alongside the rest of the fellowship is an unforgettable experience (funny how a RTS game can make you have these kind of feelings).The best mission from the campaign has be Helm's Deep, prove me wrongspoiler you can't
>>2264639So he loses all his innocent subjects by not killing themThis is why the world is fuckedGenuine idiots like youIts the same as not excising cancer from your body>NOOOO THAT CANCER IS LIVING!!!!
>>2264962As soon as we start mass-killing civilians for benefit, it sets the precedent for killing innocents when the benefit is deemed sufficient It's closer to killing those diagnosed with terminal cancer, they're going to die anyway and just waste resources so why not kill them now?
>>2264972Arthas was the son of the king and a paladin. he's more concerned about statecraft all his closest "friends" were all part of the the military industrial complex. he never made friends with the plebs.
>>2264639>A ruler does notyeah they do
>>2264639>A ruler does not kill his own innocent subjectsBegging you to pick up a history book.
>>2266252Yeah obviously there are shitty rulers in history you pedantic fuck
was no one spared at stratholme?or did the oligarchs nobles military leaders and richfags escape unscathed?
>>2266634we don't even know how undeath works, maybe every body he didn't burn eventually became part of the scourge
>>2266634There are citizens there burning bodies and fixing things in the interlude where Jaina goes to the city after Arthas and his men left, so some must have survived.
>>2264780myth 1 and 2 have great storylines.
>>2266634Anyone who didn't eat the grain would have been ok
>>2255389Battle realms has a nice story.
>>2266634Where are the city guards or local alliance forces? Even during the mission before, local forces from several villages were able to organize self-defense, and Mal Ganis enters such a large metropolis with a few ghouls as if it were his own. Idiotic.
>>2267813Hearthglen soldiers saw nearby villagers get attacked, so they were preparing a defense, Stratholme didn't and Mal'Ganis went in covertly.
>>2255389The Black Company is an unfinished custom campaign for Warcraft 3 but it was always my favorite one, it gets pretty close towards the end of the tech tree and the first book, there's well over a dozen missions if I remember right so it's not like it's lacking and if you want more of the story it's a book series so you can just go read it.
>>2268028There is no way to covertly sack a city, which is basically what Arthas did. Stratholme's garrison wouldn't sit it out and they probably wouldn't obey his order to slaughter their own friends, families, and neighbors either.
>>2264972Everyone undersands you have to kill the infected person in the zombie movieWhy does having multiple people involved change anything?Besides if you're living in Stratholme would you rather Arthas had left you alive to experience an eternity of suffering after you're forced to kill your own family?
>>2268326Solutions in the micro do not necessarily apply to the macroIf one person is trapped in a room with one other person and their only means to survive is to kill someone who is about to die, that could be defensibleIf a kingdom has an infected city, it is not the same immediate life-or-death situation. Stratholme was not decisive in the conflict, Lordaeron was doomed regardless. All the massacre achieved was a short-term tactical gain at the cost of a long-term strategic defeat in the splintering of Allied forces. It only happened to inadvertently work out as a positive because, without the massacre, Arthas never becomes the lich king and he doesn't save Azeroth.
>>2268356>Stratholme was not decisive in the conflictOnly because Arthas purged it.It WAS a life or death situation for the entire kingdom.>Lordaeron was doomed regardlessYes, because of mistakes made by Arthas after that.But if we're judging Stratholme in isolation?It was the correct call.
>>2268398>Only because Arthas purged it.Stratholme was just one of many infected cities, meaning it was NOT a life or death situation for the entire kingdomNow if we were talking about the grain distribution centre of Andorhal prior to the infected grain spreading, the actual strategic core, that might be a decisive matter
>>22553891) Me too2) Warcraft 3 for sure, Red Alert 2, Tiberian Dawn.3) Engaging story4) The AOE2 chronicle ones. They're pretty good but it got lost in the wider discussion of dlcs for dlcs.5) Yes. The council of autists has already cleared Arthas of any and all wrong-doing until the moment he killed his father.
>>2264639>A ruler does not kill his own innocent subjectsI struggle to think of a single ruler from ancient antiquity to modern times who has NOT killed his "innocent subjects".
>>2268439name one US president who has killed a large number of unarmed, innocent, law-abiding US citizens
>>2268428>Stratholme was just one of many infected cities, meaning it was NOT a life or death situation for the entire kingdomIt was the second most populous city in Lordaeron, possibly the most populous going by old rpg book canon. If the plot went ahead as normal, but the culling didn't happen, then the extra undead meat the scourge would have meant by the time of WoW, the undead border wouldn't be at Tarren Mill, it would be at Menethil Harbor.For Lordaeron in a conventional war against the undead it would've been disastrous if the Scourge claimed Stratholme, Arthas denied a massive powerspike for the scourge by culling it.
>>2268286militais and military have been isloated from the plebinas since time immemiral. their friends and family are all in the military. civvies need to stay in line and follow orders.
>>2268286>There is no way to covertly sack a cityTeleporting demons can covertly enter an unalerted city and cause havoc yeah
>>2264972A guy is rolling into town on a truck, he doesn't want to, but he's forced to.His truck is carrying a nuke.It's gonna explode and kill a million people if it enters the town.You know this, but you think of him as innocent so you choose inaction, one million people die.Everyone else in the thread would save those million people because everyone else are smarter, taller and more moral than you.like it isn't even the trolley problem, the trolley is on the course to multi-track drift, we can pull the lever so it just kills people on one track, not both tracks, but you'd rather kill people on both tracks.
>>2268476If you count deep state and rich families alongside Israeli plants that have been running the country for over fifty years
>>2268527Arthas didn't shoot a man sitting on a nuke, that's a scenario in which death is immediate and guaranteed. He shot a city that was probably going to become a nuke when other options were available. Death was neither immediate nor guaranteed. The entire setup is to demonstrate the degeneration of his morals.
>>2268782its not like the undead were a new threat. necromancers and raising undead skeletons were a thing in the first warcraft. the dude was a paladin which make trivial work of undead things. maybe it was the first time Arthas delth with the undead lost his cool and panicked. and just went kill em all
>>2268782>Death was neither immediate nor guaranteed.Yeah it was, that's a lie I'm afraid.
>>2255389I don't care who was in the wrong. What I wonder is this. Could Arthas and his troops (possibly other troops around, uninfected) could even contain a massive zombie outbreak in a large city?Maybe if they managed to gain controls of city walls and gates quickly, but even then, did they "lore wise" have enough troops to do that and contain massive zombie horde? Also, are those zombies stupid mindless, or were they controlled and directed?
>>2269005>Also, are those zombies stupid mindless, or were they controlled and directed?Controlled and directed, eventually turned into ghouls, or their meat repurposed into abominations
>>2269005I guess its a mix of him having more troops then ingame and killing off many civilians before they could transform.
>>2255389Coh 1 is good. It has a mod (can't remember now) that adds a super high quality Ardennes campaign and it just werks
>>2269005They didn't, which is why they killed everyone before they could turn.>>2269271CoH 1 is also quite possibly the only game ever made that has a campaign where you play as the Waffen SS, even though they never directly call them that.
>>2263943>>2264813I tried BFME 2 and couldn't get into it: the campaign was too contradictory to the book, and I was annoyed by the retarded wall construction system. Is BFME1 better?
>>2267813>Idiotic.The most idiotic part of the whole campaign is the entire plot point of the grain being distributed *to* the villages.>>2264780>deadlockLooks pretty gay.
>>2255389>Did Arthas really need to purge that city?Yeah, but he was a bit too eager to get purgin.Maybe a more diplomatic approach would've swayed more to his own position.
>>2270018BFME1 is 1:1 the movies stuff with added battles to grind your army.
>>2268476Whoever was in charge during:The Mexican warWW2Vietnam warKorean warGulf war 1 and 2AfghanistanIraqThey all killed innocent, law abiding US citizens for their own gain.
>>2268476Name one that hasn't.
>>2268855Turns out the WC3 writer was just a shitty writer. You could tell immediately when Orcs were presented as the good guys who were just victims of da demons and sheeeit.
>>2270061Do you prefer Edain Unchained or Age of the Ring? From what I gathered the latter is lame and cut out most monster units, while the former brought back fixed castle settlements.
>>2270344did warcraft 3 have a different writer than the first two?
>>2268855The plague/blight was a new threat.Don't remember the orcs deploying necromancy biological warfare against the humans in the first two games
>>2270501orcs had nercromancers and raised dead and the warlocks summoned demons in the first warcraftorcs in warcraft 2 had death knights which were risen from the slain knights of lordareonthe grain wasnt infected with a virus it was something magical wasnt it?seems like the orc would know something about it.
>>2270587thanks for confirming what the other anon said and that the orcs didn't deploy necromantic bio warfare through food supplies do that in wc1+2
>>2270423Between WC2 and WC3 there was a lot of actual story produced by people blizz hired (primarily golden and knaak) or by their employees (metzen) because WC1 and 2 were not plot-heavy games. They made a few short stories and novels, namely>Of Blood and Honor>Day of the Dragon>Lord of the Clanswhich all predated WC3's release.Then right after you got>The Last Guardian>War of the Ancients trilogy (Well of Eternity/Demon Soul/The Sundering)which explained a bunch of integral lore that was more or less intended for WC3/TFT and was heavily foundational for vanilla WoW They also probably made the orcs/horde separate from the demons so that the demons could instead be more closely attached to the undead as a faction for gameplay reasons.>>2270587as the other anon said, the orcs never used a plague to do their thing, they were far more straightforward and the only guy who wasn't straightforward (gul'dan) fucking died chasing power on an island in the middle of the seaalso the cult of the damned were humans, they could meld in wherever as long as they knew what they were doing, things would inevitably get messyFor Arthas though, I think he was both panicking a little and also trying to appear like a good prince, or a good king, and was afraid of looking bad. As the story goes on he gets more fucked in the head and when he takes Frostmourne he's essentially ended up not caring for much more other than being the King to rule them all. It's why the final cinematic is so good, because Arthas is now the Lich King, and all he rules from his spires are corpses in a wasteland.
WC3 had a nice story.
