God be with you, anon.

>>40986707
Its normal for the youth to run away from the church because it has been co-opted by zionism and has failed to protect its nations.

Pretty sure my shit posting made Dawkins admit Jesus was a real historical person

>>40986707
You are a lifelong Christian who has never once questioned his beliefs

>I idolized men like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Alex O'conner (Cosmic Skeptic), Armoured Skeptic. These people were my heroes. I thought knowledge was the pinnacle of human power, and every living Christian was just a desperate, terrified sheep scared to face the reality of death.
Is this seriously what you think atheists sound like? No wonder they're all laughing at you

>>40987219
Ever argued with an atheist? There's a pile of standard replies that they have, a dogma if you will, wherein they crowd around their attestation of non-religion-hood nonetheless cultlike.

how do I find a church?

>>40987317
>Ever argued with an atheist?
Yes, that atheist was me, I actually was an atheist for 30+ years and I assure you I never looked up to Richard Dawkins or thought Christians were terrified sheep, I was an atheist because I didn't think there was any need for a god to exist for the universe to exist

And the way I stopped being an atheist wasn't by thinking that "complicated things exist, therefore God", it was by witnessing real, genuine miracles that could have only come from a divine source, it's a huge logical leap from "God must exist" to "The God of the Bible is the only god that can possibly exist" and I never found that convincing, even now, in fact I'm not even a Christian, Jew or Muslim, I just believe in God

>>40987344
You spent nary a minute here then, unrepresentative sample size.

>>40986707
Yo awesome I recommend fasting and taking a break from 4chan. Pray before each meal and witness the fruits of the spirit as you mature in faith. Just know that things are going to get much, much, harder now that the system knows you have remembered your Father. Also, this is for later as you won’t understand it now, but truly question what Jesus means in John 8:44 and how it applies to the current principalities we see today. Good luck dude you are now one life closer to fulfilling the covenant.

>>40986707
This is as lame as ex-Christians talking about how atheism is their new favorite thing.

>>40987317
All atheists (hylics) will eventually worship AI as their God because it is a mirror and reflects their spiritless cognition. Even freemasons and the illuminati mock their ignorance as they obtain global dominion. They are barred from joining the craft for a reason.

File: 1687688388660133.jpg (2.5 MB, 1732x6516)

2.5 MB JPG

>>40986707
Uh-oh..

>>40987446
If Lucifer is Jesus, it doesn’t take away from the blood He shed on the cross; the unfolded cube. Labels are man made archetypes that limit our understanding of duality. The fruit of the spirit is what matters most. The same people you quoted in picrel skin children alive, burn their bodies, and offer their smoke to the elohim for worldly gain. Adonai himself said there would be many claiming his name but lack the spirit. I’m sorry our prayers are never answered. We are Satan’s children. There is salvation for us though, we simply need to let go of the self.

>>40986707
im an athiest and i worship the amazing athiest, i bought his anal banana on an ebay auction like 10 years ago it is currently rotting in my refridgerator

File: Atheist social engineering.png (1.91 MB, 1544x1018)

1.91 MB PNG

>>40986707

>>40986707
Kek! Athiests making not believing in something their entire fucking personality will always make me laugh.

>>40986707
Christians groom children to reproduce. They started waaaaay before trannies. All abrahamic desert cults are brain cancer and they rely on lying and grooming to reproduce.

>>40986707
Lying is still a sin even if you're doing it to promote religion, isn't it?

>>40986707
Thats interesting OP. I actually had quite a similar sitution , but I never was a intelectual aetisit , I just kind of ignore a lot of the whole thing because I thought that was just the ryhtm of the current earth.

And I can't really say I was ever proven wrong directly , i just addapted and got better.
That being said , as I had to get more hands on , on this , i do think I have been getting less enlightened on that end , so I am quite worried on that front.

Its quite facinating how I grew up during armor skeptic and dalas review and captian disolution , but I still have some deep respect for them.

I do think I have to be carefull now , I might be on a tight rope.

>>40986707
Balance is the key. Now you are using the left and right side of the brain. Don't forget to explore and have fun with ideas. Question everything. Don't stop learning

>>40987571
Some with those faggy chemestry people.

>>40987344
tell me about the miracles

>>40987219
Why is it whenever I tell atheists that I was an atheist, you people go into complete and total denial? This kind of mentality is part of what made me realize that atheists have just as much of a cognitive bias as the theistic side of the spectrum. You are so rooted and programmed in your ideology you are incapable of fathoming how someone can reject atheism as a viable explanation for the nature of reality. I'm so glad my brain isn't as restricted as yours is anymore.

>>40987572
Failing to prove your religion is not a sin, your belief could prove to have been lies if you are careless of tongue.

>>40986707
This post is retarded and most religicucks are retarded. Of course god exists. But God doesn't belong to religion. Crazy innit?

File: boi-crazy.gif (357 KB, 266x198)

357 KB GIF

>>40987572
>"An Atheist like me suddenly became a Christian.. he must know something I don't know. Maybe I'm the intellectually dishonest one? No, no, no, no he must be lying. He's just a... liar liar pants on fire..!"

>>40987829
>Of course God exists
>Just not YOUR god!
>Only my narcissistic, egotistical interpretation of god is possible!!

If it's not YHWH then your "god" is a sick fuck for several reasons.

>>40987799
Firstly, I'm not an atheist, you'd know this if you actually read my reply here >>40987344, but you'll probably just accuse me of pretending to believe in a higher power since in your mind only Christians and atheists can exist, and if you're not one you're the other

And secondly, it's probably because I've seen this thread a million times before and I've seen all the same terrible arguments used over and over again with obvious Christians doing bad impressions of atheists, it's the same every time

If you saw a post that said "I always thought Islam was stupid, but then one day I realised that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed (PBUH) is his prophet" you'd be a little suspicious, wouldn't you? There's no way an actual atheist goes "well, I guess god *might* exist, so the only possibility is that every single word of the bible is true"

File: BORNTO_Jesus.jpg (67 KB, 689x689)

67 KB JPG

>>40986707
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INgTzv2vyxc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc27-dmJ_4w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwrN1Z-rSnY

The good news is good news. It's paid for in full. Like the coins pulled from the fish, you have it in you and have always had it in you to accept. You have only to be gracious and accept in humility. The world (and science down to the real brass tacks) is stranger and more wonderous than conceivable.

>>40987829
Religion was created by the church to gain control over theistic beliefs after the death of Jesus. Wolves in sheep’s clothing. Matthew 7:15.

>>40987893
I will explain to you then, in great detail, the process in which I became Christian.
>Taught Christianity at 7 years old
>Atheism by 14 years old, out of rebellion, listening to punk rock, becoming a science geek
>staunch atheism by mid 20s, trying to deconvert my own family members, including my mom and dad
>far left extremist by 30s, sky daddy, love is love, etc, etc.
>35 years old, have moment of intellectual clarity, realizing certain things about the cosmos and fundamental particles, begin deep journey into understanding how the universe works, so that I can debunk theism, religion once and for all and utilize this information to free humanity from religion
>36 life changing experience
>36 realize life changing experience isn't a good enough reason to believe god exists
>37 staunch aggressive anxiety inducing, no longer atheism, but anti-theism
>38 concede, no good reason at all to accept atheism as a viable explanation for the nature of reality
>study all religions, taosim, buddhism, hinduism, animism, shamanism, study roots of all religion, study cognitive sciences of religion

fuck you very much. Don't ever fucking assume anything about anyone's mentality. I question my beliefs always, you assumptive bitch.

>>40986707
>2.78 MB PNG
>I was a staunch atheist for 30+ years of my life.
Same.
>I idolized men like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens...
Cringe.

>>40987949
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not lying, but in that case you still haven't explained why you decided that Christianity specifically was the only real truth. And if you really have studied all those religions, then you shouldn't have any trouble giving a summary of Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, animism and shamanism, as well as the origins of religion and the cognitive sciences of religion, that shows that you actually studied them and didn't just read a brief Wikipedia summary of them, right? Shouldn't take you that long, I'm sure.

>>40987949
>>40987970
Here, let me flip around your OP and you tell me how convincing it is:

>I was a staunch Christian for 30+ years of my life. I idolized men like Jesus Christ, Saint Peter, Paul of Tarsus (Saint Paul), Constantine the Great. These people were my heroes. I thought faith was the pinnacle of human power, and every living atheist was just a desperate, terrified sheep scared to face the reality of eternal life. I had a Tiktok where I would debate atheists and talk religiously over their heads for hours to make money. I don't know where else to say this, but I concede.

>Atheism is true. What that even means? I don't even fucking know. But random chance in the universe is just too overwhelming to deny. Anthropic bias, quantum mechanics, we try so hard to find any explanation other than the non-existence of God. At least, I tried to...

>I went deep into the guts of fundamental scripture to find out what makes the universe tick, what makes it seem as though certain things are destined to happen, if there's such a thing as destiny and I just can't anymore. It has to be random chance. And If it is random chance, it CAN'T be the God of the bible. It just makes too much sense ontologically, philosophically, epistemologically. I spent 30+ years of my life debunking the standard model, arguing on behalf of jesus, arguing on behalf of the bible and how the gospels are literal, unquestionable truth.

>I just can't anymore. I can safely say I look at humanity now and all I can see is a species of talking apes with no higher purpose. It's the only viable explanation because pure, raw spirituality just can't be true. Anyways, I didn't know where else to say this. I don't even know where to begin. I can't prove God doesn't exist. All I know is that if there isn't a God, we know that Jesus was just a conman who isn't who the gospels say he was. But, the bad news is, I don't think it will matter in the end.

>>40987982
The flipped around version is much less strange, if only because a staunch Christian actually could be expected to idolize Jesus and the apostles to a fair extent (The first is literally God according to most Christians, so idolize probably isn't even the right word in his case, just outright worship).

>>40987799
Hmm, rather dogmatic wouldn't ya say?

>>40987970
I'm not typing out a religion thesis / dissertation for you.
Christianity is the only religion that objectively, morally justifies the suffering of children and explains the nature of God if there is a God. It's quite simple.
All religions that do not have ties to abrahamic theism are fading away, in fact most religions of the past that didn't have ties to abrahamic theism are dead, with the rest of them slowly following.
When you see a child born with something like Harlequin Icthyiosis or Progeria, or some excruciatingly painful ailment that causes them unending suffering, you're only left 3 options

1-There is no God, nature is just prone to mistakes

2-God is not perfect, because his creation is prone to failure, making God some sick fuck for creating life knowing this shit would happen, not intervening to amend this situation(deism sort of)

3-There is a fundamental component to the human genome that is missing, rendering it susceptible to malfunction, mutation, deformation, caused by complete and total bifurcation from it's "perfect source". Why? because God has completely separated himself from his creation, not only for our own mental sanity, but several other reasons as well, mostly so humans can see what the world becomes when we try to be our own god, instead of live in harmony with the creator.

1 is false, because naturalism is false

2 is false because deism is not plausible

3 is the most viable option because it's the only option.

Now, there is a high possibility that we are living in a simulation, and no religion is true. That's the only alternative explanation i'll accept aside from Christianity. All other religions just fail to hold a philosophical grounding. They're narcissistic remnants of ancient religions created so that people can still be spiritual and not have to live with the harsh reality of who our God actually is.

And no, I do not accept aliens either. If aliens existed, we would know them by now.

File: sun symbol.jpg (166 KB, 500x909)

166 KB JPG

>>40987545
Skipped number 3 bro, Christianity is a psyop. Praise the sun.

>>40988032
>I don't actually understand any of the religions I mentioned, I just put them in my post to make it seem more plausible.
Cool, thanks for spelling that out for me

>2-God is not perfect, because his creation is prone to failure, making God some sick fuck for creating life knowing this shit would happen, not intervening to amend this situation(deism sort of)
This is actually the most plausible possibility, because you've made an error in assuming that God still has perfect knowledge of everything that's going to happen despite not being perfect: if he's not perfect then there's no reason to assume he's omniscient

Also that isn't remotely what Deism is, Deism is based around the idea that God's existence can be deduced from rational inquiry alone, which is exactly how you claimed to have come to believe in God's existence in the first place

>>40988021
Yeah, funny that, isn't it? It's almost like OP heard a very similar story from an ex-Christian atheist and thinks that if he flips it on its head it'll still make sense and can be used to convert atheists to Christianity

>>40986707
> And If there is a God, it HAS to be the God of the bible.

No… that’s a fucking leap in logic. Wtf

> It just makes too much sense

A book, made up of many stories, some 100s of years after events, picked and chosen by those in authority, translated, edited, translated, edited, and translated and edited again and again by those in authority, over the course of 2 thousand years…. A cult that believes in a messianic figure, a Jew on a stick, that you have to believe in or you spend eternity in hell, sponsored by a church that sold tickets to heaven….

You think that makes the most sense? Some real deep digging there OP.

>>40987949
> study all religions

Why? Why does it have to be the truth is in one of the many cults? I promise you there’s good explanations out there, they just aren’t sponsored by cult authorities.

>>40988032

This is where you really lost me. It’s your critical thinking on display and it sucks. The assumptions are garbage and it’s a mockery of logic.

Then the simulation comment…. That really cements it that you don’t know shit. Simulation theory is a joke, it’s meme belief popularized on the internet that’s deeply flawed.

Go back to the drawing board OP, or maybe just stop LARPing like you weren’t always gay. We all know you are making this shit up about being a hardcore intellectual atheist.

>>40986707
Wild, Just because you couldnt find god im science you Run Back to the Slave mentality.

>>40988032
> I do not accept aliens either

That’s retarded. Genesis. By definition your god is an alien, not from this planet. Angels demons whatever, not from this planet, it’s alien. So you believe in aliens already, that’s called Cognitive dissonance. It’s a sure sign you haven’t sorted out shit.

>>40986707
God bless you OP, continue on this narrow path and grow in faith and love, with Jesus Christ - welcome to the most blessed family of the Lord God almighty!

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbJIyzfkZlU

>>40988375
There you go OP. Spirituality for the masses, drink the cool aid. Who can say a heavily commercialized product isn’t the truth?

>>40988032
> Christianity is the only religion that objectively, morally justifies the suffering of children and explains the nature of God if there is a God


Uh… what? In what way does it objectively and morally justify it? You should know that a long line of philosophers have struggled with answering this question. In no way is there an agreed upon answer and at no point has such an answer been so adopted as to be obvious.

It’s even got a name, it’s called the problem of evil. If you were at all an intellectual atheist debating Christian’s for 30+ years you would be well aware of this.

Gnosticism is true on a level you don't understand.

>>40988430
> the only religion that objectively and morally justifies suffering

Also completely untrue if you studied the various mainstream cults out there. Otherwise you would know they all answer it to some degree, most much better than the anthemic religions. Especially Buddhism or Taoism

Christianity may be true, but if is true, then we need to rebel against God.

>>40988440
Interesting. I was trying to stay out of this.

You put forward an intent, not directed at any one person and not in reply to anyone specific. The goal is not accuracy, since you cannot know how it is received, and therefore implies a kind of sort, where people are expected to adopt a behavior with little going for them than their attention of your lie.

True for at least one, isn't enough. You end up having to explain later or it is a lie

>>40986707
>It has to be a God. And If there is a God, it HAS to be the God of the bible.
that's quiet the leap, but since you can't or don't want to explain anything, good for you I guess

File: 1659206293357240.jpg (14 KB, 225x225)

14 KB JPG

>>40986707
u don't have to go christian mode baka. there is the entire left hand path for u to discover

>>40988032
Buddhism could also answer this and it isn't abrahamic and it also isn't dying. Feels like you haven't really dived to deep into other religions.

>>40988474
Gnosticism says you're in a Hell realm and that's why you suffer. If it was a lie, you would be in Heaven right now.

>>40988494
Cite where it does this. Right now I would end up having to flag 'you' as the lie in your post, which is not necessarily something you seem likely to want

>>40988529
Most of the texts saying this is not public, for one. For two, it should be obvious that this world has suffering in it. That's because this is Hell. It's not permanent or eternal. It's a realm with suffering, that's what makes it a Hell realm. Simple as that. You're welcome to believe what you want though. Idk why you think you have power over me, you don't.

>>40986707
Itt: Lies of Christian origin

>>40988543
Your final comment is a lie. The rest of your post was fine and courteous, yet you kill the soul you would have in a lie. Are you happy to kill your heaven, not knowing?

>>40988591
I've seen the real Heaven, bro, and trust me when I say that this is not it. The only Presence of the Creator here is the soul. I don't take to people who think they can control a narrative about me. So forgive me if I'm a little forward. Do you even know what the Presence of The Creator feels like?

>>40988601
Yes, a retard believes a book and tells lies

>>40988609
Are you saying you think I'm lying? Or the other dude is?

>>40988610
It's a well known fact Christian larpers lie

>>40988614
Oh, yeah. I'm not a Christian. I don't get why they think they have monopoly on The Truth and never actually felt The Presence.

>>40988601
It's complicated for me, thank you.

I like the question. Politeness of this form is not dissuitable for my kind. I hesitate at my feelings. Much of this work was fun and advancing further than soul presence is among agreements in me to fulfill

I didn't mean to imply any power, just hoping to reduce willingness to lie. Obviously waiting quite a while to see days where insult and 4chan scarce occur in same breath

>>40988639
I try to be as non-confrontational as possible. I can promise you that I am not lying. Remember, there's nowhere to go but up. May The Creator bring you joy with his attendance.

>>40986707
>If there is a God, it HAS to be the God of the bible.

What are you smoking anon?

T. Non-Christian theist

>>40988032
>Christianity has solved the problem of evil and other religions haven't

Me >>40988764 again I really want to know what Kush you are using because it is absolutely next level.

>>40986707
Anon your logic is that of a lifelong believer not a 30 year atheist. If you truly follow God you should know of his commandment to not lie, specifically not to bear false witness. A false testimony on how you came to God seems especially bad.

File: 1754901231610422.jpg (107 KB, 646x710)

107 KB JPG

>try and go into a church
>invisible forcefield keeps me out unless I'm practically dragged in by someone else
was wondering if any of you chrisitians would know why this occurs?

>>40986707
>But design in the universe is just too overwhelming to deny.
There is no indication of design in the universe whatsoever. You got filtered out of atheism by being a fucking retard lmao

>>40987180
There is very little evidence he was a "real historical person". The only reason I think he probably existed is because of the bullshit the gospel authors pull to get him to fit supposed Davidic prophecy; if they made him up out of thin air, you wouldn't have those weird inconsistencies and he'd meet Davidic prophecy cleanly without them having to come up with nonsense like the Egypt and Bethlehem thing.

>>40987344
>real, genuine miracles that could have only come from a divine source
Even that isn't evidence of "God". Any number of possible deities could be responsible, or even highly advanced aliens, or AIs that run the simulation.

>>40987571
>Christians groom children to reproduce.
Well, no, they just have actual sex and produce biological offspring.

>>40986707
>I went deep into the guts of fundamental particles to find out what makes the universe tick
XD! stfu

>>40988430
No one struggles with this. Heaven / Eternal Reconciliation /Paradise justifies child suffering. Very easy. Not sure why you thought this was some sort of "gotcha". Its clearly not.

>>40986707
Dude nothing in this universe is random, as much as the Jew will tell you. Make of this what you will, but it is THE truth.

>>40988833
This is the equivalent of when Christians tell atheists they were never real Christians. Its philosophically useless and every time an atheist tells me this all it illustrates to me is how incapable you narcissistic lab rats are of thinking outside your narrow, simple, primitive self centered mindframes. In so fucking glad I was able to evolve past it.

O'Connor is easily the most unlikeable, pathetic atheist grifter I've ever seen. Fedora tippers worship him. Sad.

>>40986707
>I can't prove God exists.
God is like an axiom. It’s so simple, so fundamental, and so obvious that it can’t be proven. IF God does exist, He’s the basis of all creation, the thought with which you extrapolate, you use Him to make proofs. Of course you can’t prove He exists, but you can Know He exists. And the only way to Know something is to experience it for yourself, else you’re taking someone else’s word for it. And it certainly is possible to experience God. All the best, anon

>>40988032
>being this retarded

>>40986707
I'll give you that atheist fedoralords are prone to becoming christian fedoralords, but you're trolling.

>>40989095
You’re a fucking idiot and clearly uneducated. It’s a famous dilemma many philosophers have tried to resolve including Thomas Aquinas, Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, Alvin Plantinga, David Hume, Epicurus, Augustine, C.S. Lewis, and many more.

Your explanation for suffering by the way sucks. Clearly there are people that won’t be saved.
If God is all-powerful, God could stop evil from happening.
If God is all-good, God would want to stop evil.
If God is all-knowing, God would know about all the evil that exists.

The existence of suffering, pain, and injustice in the world, both from human actions (moral evil) and natural disasters (natural evil), contradict the attributes of such a deity

>>40989621
Piecemeal subsections of created existence, clearly philosophers lack implementing a whole system, instead taking it apart to quantize the pieces.

>>40989621
if you were this well-read you'd know how silly your arguments sound then.

>>40986707
God bless you OP.

>>40988032
>3 option
>literally writes about the demiurge, only the guilt is imposed on the person
the whole essence of Christianity

By the way, nothing is created just like that. Well, why create something just like that?

(spoiler: to pump energy from reality)
https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Ori
https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Origin
https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Book_of_Origin
https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Origin

>>40989818
Well that’s an incoherent and vague word salad that does nothing to address the problem of evil.

> Clearly philosophers lack implementing a whole system

That’s also factually untrue. You would know that if you knew anything about philosophy, a subject that should be in your wheelhouse as a former intellectual atheist that debated Christian’s.

Especially to say about someone like Thomas Aquinas, who by the way had profound influence on modern theology.

> taking it apart to quantize the pieces

Anon what… you need to read a book about the subject you are speaking on fr fr. Which brings me to:

>>40989833

This is philosophy 101. It’s not about being well-read, it’s about knowing the basics of a subject matter you are professing to have rigorously explored and drawn expert conclusions from. You aren’t even aware of the history of these questions, let alone the questions themselves.

With any education in this subject you would know you sound like high pubescent teen with deep thoughts man.

>>40990126
Saying this about Thomas Aquinas, of all people, a man whose systematic theological framework shaped centuries of Christian doctrine, is just absurd.

>>40988961
>The only reason I think he probably existed is because of the bullshit the gospel authors pull to get him to fit supposed Davidic prophecy
>he'd meet Davidic prophecy cleanly without them having to come up with nonsense like the Egypt and Bethlehem thing
Many of the supposed messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Bible are only very ambiguously messianic prophecies. Matthew having Jesus fulfill the "prophecy," "Out of Egypt I have called my son." is a perfect of example of that, because if you read it in its context in Hosea 11, it's clearly talking about Israel's exodus from Egypt, not a future divine Messiah.

Hosea 11:1-2
"When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The more I called them, the more they went from me; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and offering incense to idols."

I would say that the relevant portion is only cut out and interpreted by Matthew as a prophecy because he wants it to be one, maybe because he was mining the Hebrew Bible for potential prophecies for Jesus to fulfill to expand his life story. And that's the sort of thing that makes a bit more sense imo if Jesus was fictional to begin with, and the author of Matthew knew this, which is why he apparently feels so comfortable inventing history for Jesus.

>>40986707
> He hasn't taken the animist pagan-pill yet
Take some psychedelics and dissociatives and and ask the spirits to teach you, they'll give you some first hand experience on what's going on on the other side.
It's not as simple as "god did it". There are hierarchies of intelligences interacting with each other. There's Neil Gaiman shit going on us mere mortals will never be fully privy to.

>>40989105
You’re in a cult. You can’t see past anything because your world view is the most narrow of world views. You don’t decide anything for yourself, not really, no instead you interpret everything through the conditioning of your religion which blinds you to reason and critical thought.

Unquestionable obedience through faith or you risk your own salvation. The man has you in his pocket anon, you are part of a global community that supports church authority. Whether you participate or not, you are a number and a factor of influence.

You believe in the Jew on a stick and therefore truly believe your “eternal afterlife” hinges on faith. Not only is it absurd, it’s predatory and plainly obvious to anyone outside your cults sphere of influence.

Madness. Madness and stupidity

Guys give it to me straight, which one is the true John the Baptist, the one in the gospels or the Mandaean version?

>>40988954
It’s by design anon. No one is allowed in without going full gay. You can test this hypothesis by sucking dick and trying again.

>>40988374
So true.

>>40990126
>>That’s also factually untrue.
>Yet none have ever done it
Maybe you're mistaking a semantic definition of a whole system, wherein system is in itself a broken subset by your intent. One need only look at your post and observe the process whereby you logically test the pieces isolated. You don't understand that is what you're doing? Or are they just words to repeat to you?
>your wheelhouse as a former intellectual atheist that debated Christian’s.
You are mistaken about who I am but that's almost as irrelevant as assuming I have spoken beyond the previous post, and I daresay I shall revert to silent observation given what use shall ensue with continued participation. When you cannot even agree on a factual thing you've done just previously, there's a hell of a lot to work through before discussion. I mistook you as one who desired to debate rather than worship at the altar of the dead.
fr fr fr fr fr fr fr.

>>40986707
Atheism is just as idealist as any form of religion. It makes shit up because there are things it can't explain. In the case of religion this is somewhat obvious, where it was born out of our inability to explain natural phenomena. We have since improved this ability, pushing god inside the atoms.
Atheism is idealist in a more subtle way. It fails to recognize why religion exists and how it erodes, and merely dismisses a derived premise, rather than a root one, as false. The existence of god. It fails to realize that knowledge is how god erodes, and proposes no further way to obtain that knowledge, just that we've reached the end.
I think if you re-evaluate things with a materialist philosophy you will see this, stop worrying about falsifying religion, and possibly be more accepting towards the religious people in your life.

>>40986707
>drones on about how compelling he finds Christianity
>doesn't actually explain what is so compelling about it
If I were a Christian who thought he had extremely compelling arguments in favor of Christianity, I would not only lead with those arguments, but would leave out anything else in order to avoid distractions or derailments. Except maybe adding my "I used to be an atheist blah blah blah" as a brief footnote at the end. You not only didn't do that, but you didn't provide any arguments at all; you just vaguely alluded to some things that might be philosophically problematic for an atheist, maybe. We don't know, because you didn't explain why they would be. I'd assume this was bait if I weren't so used to seeing people actually be this vapid. Plus, I genuinely can't relate to (you) farming as a drive when offering nothing of substance, so I tend not to realize people are doing that because it's so ridiculously pathetic to me.

>>40986707
Sounds like you are ready for Gnosis.

>>40990341
You're making a lot of noise to avoid addressing the actual argument.

You said philosophers “lack implementing a whole system.” That’s demonstrably false. The entire tradition of metaphysics, from Plato to Aquinas to Leibniz to Hegel, involves constructing comprehensive, integrated systems of thought. That’s not a “semantic” definition that’s literally what they did.

You're also confusing analytic breakdown with philosophical reductionism. Learn the difference.

Analyzing parts of a system doesn't mean you're rejecting the whole, it's how logical inquiry works. The problem of evil requires examining the coherence of divine attributes. That’s not ignorance of the system, that is systematic thinking.

And finally, the pseudo-poetic flourishes don’t make your points more profound they just obscure the fact that you haven’t engaged the core issue.
If you're not here to discuss the argument itself, fine. But don't pretend that ducking out is some kind of high ground.

>>40990395
I don't know why everyone still debates the problem of evil. Thomas Aquinas already said evil is non-Being and God is Being as Such and Being is Good by definition. This system is confirmed by the hypostatic union, that the earth is worthy of Christ. None of you have a better theology than St Thomas Aquinas, I don't know why everyone is so ignorant to the actual Orthodox response to the problem of evil

Evil is a privation that is taken to the Good by the Being of the Cross

>>40990412
You know what, while I could argue this is missing some depth to the problem, I will instead give you props for being informed.

That’s really the issue I have here, that OP and others pretend to have deeply studied this stuff and don’t even know the basics.

So kudos

>>40987446
>guys... what if Jesus... was actually the devil!!!!!
or, get this, Jesus... was Jesus... what a concept!

>>40990436
Yes when I was Catholic I attained command of their theology. I know all the Orthodox views.

>>40990240
False, I EVOLVED from your world view.
Critical thought is what LEAD me to Theism.
Critical thought is what pulled me from the self centered, narcissistic, delusional atheistic mindset. You're a neckbeard with no job, no career, no girlfriend, your only semblance of anything remotely resembling manhood is your intellect, so you've constructed this false reality in your head where you consider yourself above average intelligence, and it's created this sociopathic pretentious dunning-kruger effect in your mind.
I am a Christian, I would talk scientifically over your head for hours. Cope, deal with it, sweat it out rocking back and forth and crying yourself to sleep tonight.

>>40990412
> I don't know why everyone still debates the problem of evil.

Acting as if Aquinas ends the discussion is like saying, “Plato already solved ethics.”

Saying “evil is a privation” doesn’t explain why an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good God allows such catastrophic privations in the first place. Especially natural evil because it doesn’t stem from human free will.

And pointing to the hypostatic union or the Cross might offer a path for redemption through suffering, but that doesn’t erase the underlying tension that is, why must that suffering exist at all?

If Aquinas truly resolved the problem of evil, we wouldn’t have 800 years of ongoing debate both within Christian theology and from outside it.

>>40986707
>we better hope that Jesus is who the gospels say he is
What do you mean with this

>>40989621
You're the monkey throwing a tantrum and resorting to ad hominems.

"Clearly there are people that wont be saved"
And you know this how? That's predicated on on only one of several interperetations of scripture and a false teaching which is eternal damnation, which doesn't actually exist in the bible. Feel stupid now.

"If god is all powerful, God could stop evil"
The end goal is this. So your argument fails.
"If god is all-good, god would want to stop evil"
He does, so your argument fails.
"If god is all-knowineg, God would know about--"
This isn't a moral argument against God's moral code, it's predicated on your own subjective understanding of what constitutes morality, so again, your shitty argument fails.

Epicurean paradox has been debunked for hundreds of years now. I'm sorry you had to be informed here. Throw it away like your narcissistic ontology.

>>40990478
Honestly if you're Christian and especially Catholic and you want to "debate" with St. Thomas Aquinas you should get your head checked.

>>40990476
>You're a neckbeard with no job, no career, no girlfriend, your only semblance of anything remotely resembling manhood is your intellect

Followed by:
>you've constructed this false reality in your head

The projection goes hard. I can’t make this shit up. And then:

> it's created this sociopathic pretentious dunning-kruger effect in your mind

Followed by:

> I would talk scientifically over your head for hours. Cope, deal with it, sweat it out rocking back and forth and crying yourself to sleep tonight.

Lmao anon you’re fucking mental. The cult really fucked you up.

>>40990504
I am 100% not in the cult nor share their beliefs.

>>40990517
Feel free to debunk my world view (you can't without your emotional opinion).

Feel free to prove me wrong, i'll wait.

>>40990494
> Eternal damnation doesn’t actually exist in the Bible

Lol what? How goofy do you have to be to say shit like this. You can debate interpretations, but eternal judgment and separation from God are core themes in mainstream Christian theology not fringe inventions.

Jesus himself refers to:
"eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46)
"unquenchable fire" (Mark 9:43)
"outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 8:12, 22:13)
"the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14–15)

You can disagree with those interpretations but don’t pretend this is some “fringe teaching” when it’s been central to Christian doctrine for 2,000 years.

If you're going to argue from a Christian perspective, you can't just sweep away 2 millennia of theology and Scripture because it’s inconvenient to the point you want to make.

If eternal damnation is a “false teaching,” then most of historical Christianity including Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, and nearly every creed and council somehow got the Bible wrong and only you got it right. That’s called hubris anon.

> How do you know?

the problem of evil doesn’t hinge on eternal damnation. Even one child dying in agony from a preventable disease poses the same moral challenge.

Whether everyone is saved eventually doesn't resolve the question of why such suffering is allowed now.

> God will stop evil eventually

Doesn’t negate the problem. If God can stop it, wants to stop it, knows about it and still allows centuries of mass suffering then the dilemma remains.

Delaying justice doesn’t excuse inaction, especially when it’s within your power to prevent horror. That’s the whole tension.

>>40990494
>>40990580
> your own subjective morality

The argument doesn't assume my morality. It assumes God’s attributes as defined by Christian theology (perfect goodness, omnipotence, omniscience). If your version of God allows gratuitous suffering, doesn’t act to stop it, and still calls Himself “good,” then it’s on you to explain what “good” actually means in that context.

> Epicurean paradox has been debunked

No, it hasn’t. It’s been debated, not solved. If it were “debunked,” Christian philosophers like Plantinga, Hick, Swinburne, etc. wouldn’t have spent decades crafting nuanced theodicies in response.

>>40990580
The Koran disparages the people who say "the fire will only touch us for but a few days." So there seems to be at least an argument, especially coming from the outside.

Buddhas have also been known to release sentient beings from the hells, as that is part of the Bodhisattva vow.

The Lotus Sutra also says those who disparage this teaching will spend a long time in hell, then come out and be reborn as animals

>>40990580
Literally all the verses you mentioned do not talk about an eternal place of conscious torture. I'm sorry someone lied to you.

You're comitting an ad populum fallacy, just because a vast majority of Christians believe in eternal hell doesn't mean it's objectively a "true Christian teaching". Just like not every Christian is a Trinitarian, so again. You're "Deboonking" a dogma. Nothing more. Yes, I can "Sweep away" 2 millenia of bad theology. Everything evolves, you don't get to cherry pick what does and doesn't to strengthen your shitty argument.

A child dying in agony in our timeline is nothing compared to an eternity of joy and happiness, so yes. No moral challenge, sorry. There's just not. It would be if this is the final plane of existence, but according to christian theology, it isn't.

"saved" is another dogma, so we can both stop using that term.

The final 2 statements are your emotional opinion on what constitutes morality, it's not valuable, it has no philosophical power, sorry.

>>40990582
Actually God is the 3 O's: Omnipotence, Omniscience, and Omnipresence. Benevolence doesn't start with an O, and Omnibenevolance isn't a word.

>>40986707
I was similar. I grew up in a rabidly Christian household. I spent more time in a suit than in normal clothes. Everything was taught through a tribalist us vs them sort of mindset. The end was coming. There was no point in pursuing anything because it wasnt going to matter when Jesus came back and killed almost everybody, which would somehow be the greatest moment of my life. I learned symbolism, patterns, numbers, circles within circles and sacred dimensions but was scared to death of the demons who I was convinced persecuted me for my studies. Eventually I rebelled and decided I was too smart and faith itself was the root of suffering and division. A means of controlling people that were too weak or frightened to see they were being conned. I absolutely hated religion. It was empty though. I was free but everything was just as pointless, just from a different perspective. I looked around at the world that I had been taught to shun and I felt just as alone. The people were directionless and cold. I started reading the gospels. I told nobody about this. I started with John because to me it was always the most intimate side of Jesus. I finally saw it from my own eyes. There were no church leaders forcing me into a box. I was finally allowed to come to my own conclusions and in those moments I finally found love and acceptance. It could be just a story. Who knows. Stranger things have happened. All I know is life is better with the belief in Jesus and his loving Father than it ever could be without. Thanks for reading my blog.

>>40990673
finally someone gets it.
I did question my beliefs. I spent 30 some odd years questioning my beliefs. I gave it up, then discovered the truth on my own, way later, without anyone "InDoCtRiNaTiNG" me.

>>40986707
what a weird idea to stretch the half of such a beautiful painting
especially since Jesus being in the middle was important part of composition

>>40990601

Wow. Bold move redefining 2,000 years of Christian theology mid-argument and expecting no one to notice. Let’s take a walk through your theological TED Talk.

> None of the verses you mentioned talk about eternal conscious torment

Right, of course. That clears up the last 20 centuries of everyone completely misreading the Bible. The Church Fathers, Augustine, Aquinas, Reformers, every major denomination….

* Matthew 25:46 literally says: “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”– Same word, same duration. If “eternal life” means forever, so does “eternal punishment.”
* Mark 9:43-48 refers to “unquenchable fire” and “where the worm does not die.”
* Revelation 14:11: “The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night.”

Anon stop pretending the doctrine of eternal hell is a fringe misreading. It was central to early Christian eschatology and remains so in almost every mainstream tradition.

> Ad populum fallacy
That’s cute, but no. This isn’t “everyone believes it so it must be true.” It’s “every major Christian tradition has taught this for 2,000 years, based on clear texts and consistent exegesis.” I’m describing consensus doctrine. There’s a difference between “popular opinion” and the universal teaching of Christian theology for centuries.

If you want to break from that, fine but don’t pretend you represent “orthodox Christianity” when rejecting 2,000 years of it.

>>40990601
>>40990815
>A child dying in agony in our timeline is nothing compared to an eternity of joy

So it’s fine that a toddler dies screaming of bone cancer because someday, maybe, they’ll be happy in heaven? That’s your defense of divine goodness?

So divine goodness is preserved because, eventually, that kid might get a celestial cookie.
> Don’t worry about the unspeakable horror now it’ll all balance out later!

Is that the theology now? Utilitarianism, but make it holy?
You’re sidestepping the problem. The existence of suffering now even for a moment is what generates the problem of evil. Appealing to future bliss doesn’t erase the question of why allow the agony in the first place?

Omnibenevolence doesn't mean eventually fixing it it means preventing needless suffering if possible. And according to Christian theology, God is both omnipotent and capable of doing so.

> Saved is another dogma so let’s stop using the term

Cool, so now we’re just deleting any theological term that makes the argument harder.

You don’t get to declare theological terms invalid mid-argument because they’re inconvenient. “Salvation” is central to Christianity. If you're tossing out “saved,” “hell,” and “morality,” then you’re not debating Christian theology you’re just inventing your own system and calling it Christianity.

> Your moral critique is just emotional and subjective

So is yours unless you’ve found an objective, God-certified definition of good that conveniently includes genocide, child torture, and tsunamis as mysterious love.

And again, the problem of evil uses your theology’s own definitions , all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful. If that’s now “subjective,” and you think all of Christian tradition misunderstood those verses until you came along, great, congrats.

File: 1746234164756706.jpg (421 KB, 1920x1080)

421 KB JPG

>>40990756
As iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another. Proverbs 27:17

God bless you anon.

>>40990881
> iron sharpens iron, so one person sharpens another.

You guys agreeing with each other is not the metaphorical equivalent of iron sharpening iron….

File: 67b1ae_14faea14ea0d44b8b5(...).png (311 KB, 414x330)

311 KB PNG

>>40989095
>Heaven / Eternal Reconciliation /Paradise justifies child suffering
Have you ever heard of donkey and carrot? The existence of God by the way or some astral planes, magic, miracles from prophets do not confirm that people get to Heaven thanks to faith, and some place of eternal bliss maybe can really exist, but only a few people have possibly gotten there. All this is bait. Nothing is created just like that. People are batteries that power the cosmic world tree.

>>40990601
> Hell isn’t real
> Salvation doesn’t mean anything
> Evil doesn’t matter because heaven
> Everyone else has been wrong for 2,000 years except me.

Starting to suspect OP has a hidden GOD-complex buried in there. OP, do you think you are the messiah? It would actually explain a lot.

>>40990815
NTA but there is an argument that all of those translation are wrong, and IIRC there have always been Christian universalists, and there were more of them closer to the beginning. See: https://thechristianuniversalist.blogspot.com/2022/07/just-how-long-is-eternal-study-on.html

There have also been lots of people who believe in conditional immortality, where the worst punishment is just painful death, and they've pretty much always been around too and academics like Bart Ehrman believe that's what Jesus believed IIRC.

I'm not a Christian, but even despite not being a Christian it bothers me that what I see as the stupidest version of Christianity has been mostly dominant, and I'm interested in seeing how Christianity might in the future revert to a less stupid version of itself after going wrong for so long and how the apologetics would work around that.

File: and_.png (61 KB, 682x528)

61 KB PNG

>>40990942
forgot picrel from the link

>>40986707
>I idolized men like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Alex O'conner (Cosmic Skeptic), Armoured Skeptic.
all I need to know to verify that you're retarded

>>40990942
Appreciate the thoughtfulness, it's a refreshing change from the “I Googled a verse and now I’m a theologian” crowd. But here’s the problem

Christianity is built on some absolutely batshit foundations.

It starts with a book or, more accurately, a compilation of edited, translated, re-translated, censored, and cherry-picked texts, some written centuries after the events they allegedly describe, selected by early church authorities with the theological flexibility of a brick wall.

The New Testament canon wasn’t handed down from heaven, it was voted on. Think “Council of Nicaea,” not “God whispering directly into anyone’s ear.” Some books got in, others got the boot.

Criteria?
> Political usefulness
> doctrinal alignment
> control.

You know the usual Holy Spirit stuff.

Then you’ve got a theology that demands belief in a Jewish carpenter executed by Rome or else you get tossed into a lake of fire. Unless you're lucky and catch the version where you’re just gently annihilated.

And that’s all before the Church started selling tickets to heaven, aka indulgences, because nothing screams “divine truth” like a medieval timeshare grift.

Ever heard of Hypatia? Brilliant female philosopher in Alexandria, murdered by a Christian mob around 415 C.E. They sharpened oyster shells and flayed her alive because her existence threatened their theological narrative.

>>40990936
Read "Four Views on Hell" the NT is very vague about hell when you actually study it deeply instead of just quoting from the KJV, there are many valid interpretations of its nature.

Side note these threads are kek cause all the X larpers who say their shadows contain buddhist succubi violently morph into redditors when Christianity gets mentioned lmao. Crazy how this is the only religion people take seriously.

>>40990942
>>40991047
That wasn’t a one-off. Early Christianity didn’t spread because it won a bunch of calm debates.
It was a cult consolidating power:

> Burning of pagan temples? Check.
> Destruction of the Library of Alexandria? Also Christian mobs.
> Crusades? Literal holy wars where “Christians” slaughtered cities full of people in the name of God.
> Inquisitions? Torture for the soul.
> Witch trials? Execute women for herbal medicine. Very sacred.

So sure universalism and conditional immortality are more pleasant takes. But let's not romanticize them as “true Christianity just waiting to return.” The rotting roots of this system are well-documented. And once you notice the stench, putting fresh flowers on top doesn’t really fix it.

>>40991060
> Crazy how this is the only religion people take seriously

It’s not and a lot of people don’t. It’s just the religion that dominates the west, and most of us come from western countries.

>>40990504
Aquinas was wrong on all the important things. He realized this at the end of his life through a mystical experience.

>>40991094
I too channeled the spirit of Thomas aquinas and he said to tell you, fake and gay.

>>40991078
People post these kinds of things about all the religions here but only Christian ones grow full of redditors trying to deboonk it because they're more threatened by it, just facts

>>40991047
>It starts with a book or, more accurately, a compilation of edited, translated, re-translated, censored, and cherry-picked texts, some written centuries after the events they allegedly describe, selected by early church authorities

And now it’s fake words are quoted endlessly in debates online as the words of god. Madness. Madness and stupidity

>>40990915
Divide and be alone. Suffer in your own tomb lest you beg for those of His works to raise you, and when they do so, thank them with humility and praise the Savior.

>>40991109
Lmao. Threatened by what exactly? The cult mindset is scary, yea ngl. But that’s not limited to Christianity. Nothing else threatening about it though. The beliefs are silly as all fuck.

Did Reddit hurt you anon? Did you go there posting bible quotes and get downvoted? lol. As if everyone on this board hasn’t posted on Reddit

> but but fedoras
> but but neckbeards

>>40991062
Yes, Abrahamism is responsible for the destruction of a huge college of knowledge, ancient buildings. It is like some agents of the demiurge who destroyed the past, destroyed inconvenient artifacts. If Islam does not hide its grin, then Christianity is more hypocritical, because they say that people are guilty, and not the teaching (at the same time they recognize the Old Testament and therefore sometimes cruelty was justified by the Old Testament. A very convenient book.)

In fact, burning, killing pagans, witches, heretics, apostates, etc. is a veiled sacrifice

>>40991108
"Aurora Consurgens" is his only masterwork. The rest, he admits, is "straw".

>On 6 December 1273, another mystical experience took place. While Thomas was celebrating mass, he experienced an unusually long ecstasy.[72] Because of what he saw, he abandoned his routine and refused to dictate to his socius Reginald of Piperno. When Reginald begged him to get back to work, Thomas replied: "Reginald, I cannot, because all that I have written seems like straw to me"[73] (mihi videtur ut palea).[74] As a result, the Summa Theologica would remain uncompleted.[75]

>>40991154
Real deep anon. Also totally gay. You posted a bible quote, in ironic context because the context was actually the opposite of what you think it means, and not you post some vague mystic religious condescension cloaked in poetic language as a retort.

If you wanted to sound like a cult member, perfect, because that’s how a cult member sounds.

>>40991162
Yea your group doesn't treat any other religion this way, so clearly it threatens you enough to hold a special place, very simple don't know why this enrages you

>>40991166
>Family members became desperate to dissuade Thomas, who remained determined to join the Dominicans. At one point, two of his brothers resorted to the measure of hiring a prostitute to seduce him. As included in the official records for his canonization, Thomas drove her away wielding a burning log—with which he inscribed a cross onto the wall—and fell into a mystical ecstasy; two angels appeared to him as he slept and said, “Behold, we gird thee by the command of God with the girdle of chastity, which henceforth will never be imperiled. What human strength can not obtain, is now bestowed upon thee as a celestial gift.” From then onwards, Thomas was given the grace of perfect chastity by Christ, a girdle he wore till the end of his life. The girdle was given to the ancient monastery of Vercelli in Piedmont, and is now at Chieri, near Turin

He had a mental breakdown

by the way, if a person sees angels now, they will send him to a psychiatrist

>>40991193
You misread the situation. Your cult is particularly bold and obnoxious, therefore you get more attention. But by no means do you hold a special place, there’s sincere criticism to be made of every cult.

Also, I am part of no group. You could categorize me I suppose as for or against, but you couldn’t find others with my beliefs.

>>40991223
Also let’s not forget OP started this thread LARPing as a past atheist turned Christian who would intellectually debate others for years until he found the truth.

If cultists of any cult made a post like this, they would have the attention and ire of non believers. It just so happens that it’s a Christian, as it tends to be.

Also, I personally would never have replied if they didn’t make such outrageous leaps in logic and act so pretentious. It doesn’t matter if they are part of a group or not, that kind of behavior is an attractor for resistance.

>>40991223
This is 4chan lol just filter the word Christianity or something. This religion obviously holds a special place for you cause discussions on other religions don't attract your group

And yea you're just an antitheist, extremely common type to find on the internet. All your objections are the same shared material too

>>40991060
KJV:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

NIV:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

ESV:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

NASB:
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven."

NRSV:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

Looks like not everyone gets into heaven.

>>40989095
>Heaven / Eternal Reconciliation /Paradise justifies child suffering.
I don't think so.

>>40991060
Matthew 7:13-14

KJV:"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
NIV:"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
ESV:"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
NASB:"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
NRSV:"Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it. For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Interesting. More non KJV talking about not everyone going to heaven. weird, almost like you don’t know what you are talking about…

>>40991306
Do you know what self projection is? You must be the OP. So weird how it’s become a pattern to self projection in every accusation…. Worth inquiry maybe? Or are you blind to it. Probably the ladder.

>>40990444
So a random Jewish crackhead who convinced people in bumfuck Canaan that he was a divine being because the hot sun turns all their brains to soup?

>>40991361
It’s a common behavior most cultist share. They fail to see the irony in their words and they have zero self awareness. Projection is typical.

>>40991361
I accept your concession.

>>40991400
Your framework for logical conclusions is astounding. Truly I’m impressed at your capacity for error.

>>40991400
> I would debate Christians and talk scientifically over their heads for hours to make money

Sincerely OP, if you want to LARP then so be it but don’t get offended and cry victim.

You very obviously have zero
intellectual background, as demonstrated by being unable to comprehend basic philosophical arguments and zero knowledge to draw on in regards to the topic.

Not one of your replies formed a coherent argument. Indeed, every response was a deflection packed with arrogant misinformed and often times vague counter arguments. You have no debate experience.

I won’t force you to admit you are a lifelong Christian without education but … I mean… it’s transparent for all to see

File: eifixfhdst221.jpg (56 KB, 960x587)

56 KB JPG

In my opinion this discussion was settled many many years ago.
Nagarjuna reasoned thusly against Brahman(The Absolute), and Brahman is much harder to argue against than the God of the Bible.

1. Claim: “Brahman is eternal, unchanging, and the ground of all phenomena.”

If Brahman is the ground, then phenomena depend on it. But if it’s unchanging, it cannot enter into causal relations — and so cannot actually give rise to anything.

If it does interact with phenomena, then it changes — so it’s no longer eternal.

Therefore, the very idea of an “unchanging ground” is incoherent.

2. Claim: “Brahman is the ultimate self (Ātman), identical with your deepest nature.”

If the self is identical with Brahman, then it must be eternal and unchanging — but our lived experience of “self” is a stream of perceptions, thoughts, and feelings.

To posit an eternal “true self” behind this stream is to invent something you can never actually experience — so it’s useless for liberation.

3. Claim: “Brahman is the one reality; the world of phenomena is māyā (illusion).”

To call phenomena “illusion” is to set up a duality between appearance and reality — but this duality itself is just another conceptual fabrication.

Reality is exactly the network of dependently arisen phenomena; there’s no separate “real thing” hiding behind them.

4. Claim: “Realizing Brahman is liberation.”

If liberation is realizing some eternal essence, then it depends on that essence existing. But since all phenomena (and concepts) lack intrinsic existence (śūnyatā), Brahman too is empty — it cannot be the final refuge.

Liberation is simply seeing that everything — including your concepts of “ultimate reality” — arises dependently and lacks inherent being.

You might notice the LLM style, and it's because I got chatgpt to formalize the arguments in a paraphrased form. The main point is that it has been centuries if not more, and these arguments have never been refuted.

>>40991421
>>40991489
All you've done is call my religion a cult lol. I'd like to debunk it but there's no good arguments against it. Stuff in the thread mentioned prior like the problem of evil and worries about scriptural corruption just don't work

>>40991530
As a former Christian I assure you the Problem of Evil does work. It's what ultimately deconverted me.

>>40991530
> Stuff in the thread mentioned prior like the problem of evil and worries about scriptural corruption just don't work

Just don’t work with your theology. Exactly! You’re catching on anon. You just realized how flawed your beliefs are. Is that a spark of self awareness? I’m thoroughly surprised.

I’d like to think that somewhere down the road of your life you will form a more coherent vision of your beliefs that can answer the hard questions, and when you do, you’ll think of me and how frustrated I made you feel on this day. But it was for the best.

Rarely does such an occasion occur. I’m happy to have helped. You’re also very welcome.

>>40991548
Is there a book or resource you recommend? I read Ehrman's and he gives a fine emotional appeal but he's not a philosopher and it wasn't persuasive to my mind.

>>40991565
I still see no arguments here lol

>>40991491
Ah, a Buddhist with coherent understanding of their beliefs. I applaud you for being well informed. It’s rare.

>>40991548
>As a former Christian

There is no such thing, you were never Christian; once you know Christ, you know the truth - what sort of person would then reject the truth for a world otherwise overflowing with lies?

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbJIyzfkZlU

>>40991588
The arguments been over since you failed to respond anon. If you scroll up you will see multiple posts responding to your last attempt to resist logic.

I understand you wish to save face though, if you’d like to imagine I conceded then so be it. I’m just happy to have sparked some awareness through the cultist armor you came wearing.

>>40991606
Foul gatekeeper of the cult of Christ, I command thee in Jesus name to return to wince you came.

>>40991491
This was very informative to me but I want to ask you, what do you think about this in relation to the Diamond Sutra's proclamation that the Tathagata does not announce the destruction or the end of any Dharma?

>>40991607
All I saw in this thread were infantile arguments involving the logical problem of evil and the council of nicea which others responded to before I got here. Why don't you link to your favorite one in here

>>40991661

Well, to state the obvious, every post of yours has been a deflection and lacked meaningful points. But if you think it won’t go over your head you can start here
>>40990815
And here
>>40990826

It was at this point you started on a tangent about victimhood and also ignored:

>>40991334
And
>>40991349

Hardly infantile, either the basics go over your head or you have no real rebuttal.

>>40986707
So you went from one type of retarded faggotry to another. Good job Op.

>>40991196
It's literally the opposite of a breakdown: He saw God.

>>40991334
>Looks like not everyone gets into heaven.
Everyone eventually does the will of the Father. His will is all-powerful.

>>40991606
Pedantic nonsense. As a person who sincerely believed Jesus rose from dead, went to Church, read the Bible, took communion, etc I used to be a Christian.Your claim that I was never a REAL Christian is creepy and culty.

>>40991756

For
>>40990815
This is just you insisting that only one valid interpretation of hell exists which is just patently false

>>40990826
I don't share that anons theodicy so this doesn't concern me

>>40991334
>>40991349
I never claimed everyone goes to heaven so these posts were irrelevant

>>40991491
Wrong on all points.

>>40991832
Objection. You are directly contradicting the words of Jesus himself as provided.

This isn’t how a debate works, you don’t get to just change facts where it suits you. You take an L here and not only was your response retarded and gay, but it was factually wrong.

>>40991844
Ah, the I’m not that anon argument. That’s the definition of infantile. So you concede. Thanks for playing. I can’t take you seriously anymore

File: Gozanze_Myo_o.jpg (166 KB, 627x845)

166 KB JPG

>>40991659
I am hesitant to answer this question because you asked me so earnestly, and I am not well-read in buddhist literature at all.
But, I can still give you my own interpretation, which is that objects of the mind do not fundamentally change their nature, but will appear as they did prior to the realization of their emptiness.
In a related story, Shiva was a great and powerful God, who mistakenly believed that he was the absolute reality. The Wisdom King Trailokyavijaya defeats and kills Shiva with his Varja, after which Shiva is reborn as a Buddha.

>>40991865
I'm not gonna defend a view I don't hold lol

Anyway I accept your concession.

>>40991888
It is I who accept your submission anon. Now you are dismissed.

>>40991860
>You are directly contradicting the words of Jesus himself as provided.
Wrong. Read it again.

>>40990395
You, in your post, did exactly what was described. Why are you avoiding facts? I even pointed it out to you and you still are avoiding it. It's so dumb.

>>40991935

> Not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven

It literally says it, right there. You read it again

>>40991944
As I said, in my post, addressing this already:

> You're confusing analytic breakdown with philosophical reductionism.

I’m noticing a pattern here… it’s almost like neither of you are reading the words I type…

Could someone recommend me a good history book critical of Christianity? Things like how the Bible comes from a lot of flawed sources and how the Church spread by violence as mentioned in this thread, while still rigorous and not just an angry fedora rant.
I want to stop worrying "but what if Christianity is right"

>>40991606
>There is no such thing, you were never Christian; once you know Christ, you know the truth
This.

>>40991842
Those are all external things. You never knew him.

>>40993089
Stop worrying about "Christianity" and start thinking about Christ.

>>40993089
But what if Christianity is right is actually a Magick spell. If you discern the SPIRITS giving you that intuition you will see it is very sketchy. It's not really your thought

On the other hand if the Holy Ghost pushes you into it you really have little choice

File: Screenshot_2025-08-29-22-(...).jpg (87 KB, 460x668)

87 KB JPG

>>40993089
https://www.goldenrosycross.org/_files/ugd/d4331c_eb18c7d1645c47c8896b34214ce41aeb.pdf

>TLDR
The Bible has all the secrets of the universe, but organized religions such as Catholicism are satanic at their core and they fundamentally enslave humanity. "Jesus Christ" is a false god which was created by human thought and vivified on the astral realms. Although Jesus was a real figure, the deity which is idolized is another thing. True religion is an internal work, not an outside operation.

Horizontal religion is archontic and satanic = you treat the Kingdom of God as being on this world, you worship an external Jesus which you start to depend on, you die and just reincarnate again, nothing changes. One continues being trapped in matter.

Vertical religion, True religion = One gradually discovers the mysteries of the heart within and connects which the fundamental Godly force of the universe, the Christ principle inside each one of us. Gradually by understanding what we really are we win over death and matter and become One with the supreme principle.

>>40986707
Spread the word, brother!

File: 20240813_230738.jpg (204 KB, 459x923)

204 KB JPG

I love no church and no church loves me. Every church I've ever been in makes me feel unwelcome and uncomfortable.

>>40991606
You are actually brainwashed.

>>40993252
sorry, bud. You enter the church, you have to leave the pride flag at the door. That's just the thing about morality, we can't make it ourselves.

>>40993089
>I want to stop worrying "but what if Christianity is right"
The fact there's talking donkeys in the Bible doesn't eliminate that worry? LMAO

>>40993271
>You enter the church, you have to leave the pride flag at the door.
Is that why lots of churches have big pride flags outside of them?

>>40993272
"TaLkInG DoNKeYs"
It's a metaphor, you fucking stupid cunt. Just because protestants take the OT as history doesn't mean all Christians do. It's widely accepted now that the OT is just tales to convey the relationship between man and god using bits and pieces of actual history.
The only people who say the shit you say are you rainbow fairy faggot fucks who can't even tell the world what a woman is so please, pipe the fuck down.

>>40993278
"Is that why lots of self proclaimed republicans wear Kamala T-shirts?"

>>40993271
I'm not gay, and I'm not being metaphorical either. It feels like something is missing. Maybe it's just because I'm an American, but I go in churches and they all feel like Walmart.

What's going to happen? Organized religion will be shown as more and more incompetent, sterile and impotent in solving the human tragedy of ego as time passes. People will get disillusioned, suffering will accumulate, no answer will be found. The hierarchies on the astral realms which depend on the devotees will despair, and then they will fake the second coming of Christ. Only by going inside deep within the fountain of all life is that the human tragedy can be solved. That's the message of the true Jesus Christ, of Buddha, Lao, Plato: The Kingdom of God is within us. Dispense with all middlemen

>>40986707
>I was a huge retard that got duped into atheism,
>but NOW I know the truth!

>>40993317
Maybe you're just anti-social then. But I understand. I would argue for ever one protestant church that conducts themselves like an actual church... a community, a family, there's twenty prosperity gospel churches on the same block who just use christianity as a brand name for their lives. This to me is the greatest cause of atheism in the world today. I am a protestant myself, but even I see the flaws in protestantism. It leaves the bible way too open to interpretation and every baby Christian aspires to "find the true meaning" of the bible and make their own church. This is partially why it was so hard for me to become a Christian, after being an atheist my entire life.
I had too many questions about this supposed "holy spirit", and how it's supposed to interact with me, how I could never get a clear answer on how to actually distinguish it from my own thoughts.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you you need to find a church, I don't even think the Jesus of the gospels would recognize this modern church culture. But I do hope you find a church family. It feels good to have. I don't go to church to experience God, I go to church sunday to be with the people there, because they've always been great to me, even when I left the Church so many years ago, and the ones who were still alive when I came back welcomed me with joy and tears, it was a feeling I can't describe.

>>40986707
Out of all the religions, why Christianity? I have a suggestion, but it's not for the faint of heart. Seek truth for truths sake. Lay everything aside and ask God to show you the truth to the nature of all things. Have an open minded yet a skeptical perspective of all things. If you're honestly seeking truth, you will find it. You will come to find out truth has many layers, and discover there are many truths in general. It's actually a difficult journey, because you have to admit when you're wrong about certain things or that you simply don't know. If you don't do that, then you won't find truth. You will find yourself stuck in your own belief traps. That part of very difficult, because of our ego. I feel like if you do this with an honest and pure heart, then God will honor that and show you.

>>40993326
I would agree with this prediction...


If there was no God.

But in order for there to be no God, your argument as to why there's no God must be stronger than the argument that there must be one. And atheists don't have this argument. The default is always "I don't know, but that doesn't mean a god did it". That's what new age atheism as devolved into, a position atheists realized they can't defend, so they've shifted the burden of proof onto the theist, when design in the universe is clearly self evident.

>>40993371
You

See >>40988032

>>40993360
>I'm not going to sit here and tell you you need to find a church, I don't even think the Jesus of the gospels would recognize this modern church culture.
Yeah, we're in agreement on this one. I "get" churches, I understand the appeal and I know they're valuable and honestly I want to see the good ones protected, there just isn't a place for me in a single once I've ever found.
I'm not saying that to be dramatic, either, you're probably right that I'm antisocial. That's on me, not everyone else.

>>40993390
Did you mean to reply to me? Because your comment doesn't make sense. You can absolutely connect with God outside organized religion such as Catholicism or anything else. You don't need a priest - You can connect with God right now.

>>40993451
by all means, explain to me how one "connects with God".
Which God? How do I know the god you're presupposing exists? If it's not the god of the bible, why should I even want to connect with this god knowing what I know now about the nature of reality?

>>40993371
>why Christianity
Because OP is baiting

>>40993484
Why do you need words on a book to meet God? There's no "which" God, there's just one single supreme Lord over everything, which encompasses everything, which Is everything and yet everything is not what He is only. Why so distrustful of yourself? You can intuitively know all these things, they are so obvious and on our face that we need no holy books to show us. Sure, go on with the Bible, it's the same God. But the God on the bible is not limited to the Bible. Go beyond it.

How to connect with it? Be silent, learn to listen your heart. Dispense with logic and tune to your intuition.

>>40993284
What could a talking donkey possibly be a metaphor for? If you believe in the new testament miracles like walking on water and resurrection from the dead, I don't see what's so difficult about believing that a donkey could temporarily be given the power to communicate in human language.

>>40993506
No, no. You don't get to answer my question with a question.

Explain to me how one connects with god. Seems to me like you want me to connect with a very narcissistic, subjective interperetation of god. What if the "god in my heart" tells me it's okay to murder people?
This is why theology like yours is absolute shit.
You don't know god. You think you know god. You worship the self, with a self centered, narcissistic understanding of god.
Does the "god" you serve convey morality to you? What is moral in your gods eyes?

Please don't answer with "yeah, but the bible..."..

>>40993556
Are you the Op? Are you baiting? It seems so to me, like you're just entertaining yourself playing the confused maiden. Anyhow, I shall reply once more and maybe that's it.

Have you heard of the Ten Commandments?

You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

God can never be an interpretation, it can be connected to, but words end where God begins. If you imagine, then it's not it. Remember what Jesus said: The wisdom of God is madness to men, and wisdom of men is madness to God. The mechanisms of logic and scientific thought which always need proofs will never reach the Divine, which is altogether beyond logic, interpretation thought. If God is supreme and everywhere, then closest place where you can meet Him is inside yourself. I feel you're baiting so I won't reply anymore. Be well.

>>40993581
yeah exactly, you can't fucking answer. Jesus also said "No one gets to the father, but through me", so you're cherry picking Jesus' words to come off as some profound conveyer of theology. You're not fooling anyone, retard. You're just as lost as the rest of us, and your theology can go back in the dumpster like your life and all your failed aspirations.

I hear you with the changing religion stuff. I was a Catholic and now I'm considering becoming a Buddhist, as I feel it has better practices and answers to life.

>>40987446
Also doesn't have historical support. I mean, it's a cute story and all, but without any supporting theological or historical documents you just run out of steam. What makes Judaism and Christianity interesting is the oddly thorough historical precedence.

>>40993118
You are right. I never felt some otherworldly presence much less a booming voice in the sky because there isn't one. I was alone despite desperately wanting some sort of divine connection. Your definition is awfully convenient that way but secretly every Christian is perplexed by the silence of their deity (there are a bunch of cope er I mean sermons on it).

>>40986707
have you considered platonism also?
this is a good playlist on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcJvyy5BXhU&list=PLUUm2GzfiYp36i6fAbgGhtPpi1gd6EN4L

>>40986707
I expect militant atheist are one of the groups most likely to become Christian, for a number of reasons.

1. They divide their entire argument in a weird God vs no-God worldview, in staid of adopting a metaphysical system of some sorts, kinda closes the door, either God or an incoherent chaotic universe.

2. They spend enormous amounts of time, reading, talking and debunking Christianity, until that stuff suddenly clicks and makes sense to them.

3. A general and complete lack of genuine interest in history, other people and even science, all these they just view as tools to convert or debate.

4. Annoying contrarian personality, where they just have to do the opposite of what everyone else, or their friend group is doing.

>>40996034
I don't think Platonism is true, because it means you end up projecting the Earth domain on the universe around you, what do I mean by this. If everything is just a mold impressed by a higher reality on our reality, then you must end up thinking the universe is full of aliens doing le epic space battle, because the same logic that applies to our own world must apply to the universe. Basically people like Swedenborg or weirdo scifi geeks, now there is no evidence that the universe at large reflects our own little pocket of the universe. So I would rather work with a worldview where the unlikely or miraculous are true and as it where pierces the veil and brings into being life or who knows what else.

>>40986707
Stupid faggot

I dont trust people who flip flop their beliefs and opinions

>>40986707
God bless you.

File: IMG_0544.gif (1.25 MB, 350x234)

1.25 MB GIF

>>40986707
>atheist is starting to believe in god!
He's doing it!
>chooses a dogmatic abrahamic religion instead of agnostic pantheism or one of it's branches
for saying you valued critical thought this is incredibly ironic.

>>40996286
I don’t trust people who don’t. On principle as a fallible being, you should be self aware enough to realize you will be wrong about many things.

As you grow and self reflect, you should be refining your belief set, even completely changing if appropriate, not checking it off as if your work is done because it most definitely is not.

>>40998278
> Natural pantheism

This is the way.

>>40992530
>>>40991944 (You)
>As I said, in my post, addressing this already:
>> You're confusing analytic breakdown with philosophical reductionism.
>I’m noticing a pattern here… it’s almost like neither of you are reading the words I type…

Strange, because you've yet to realize I addressed the semantic error in your belated assertion that their description of their system is not what I meant when I said implement the entire system. You're being retarded to argue immaterial points and intentionally refusing to make progress in discussing what I was saying, INTENTIONALLY I say again.
inb4 your nuh uh bullshit. Or maybe you'll ask what the fuck did he actually mean OTHER THAN MY AFFIXED SEMANTIC ERROR.

File: 1590527218485.png (3.41 MB, 1831x1472)

3.41 MB PNG

>>40986707
> " idolized men like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Alex O'conner (Cosmic Skeptic), Armoured Skeptic."

So you're a smoothbrain? I'm not an Atheist but even out of all the atheist thinkers, you chose to idolize the most insufferable pseudo-intellectual internet-brained faggots?

>It has to be a God. And If there is a God, it HAS to be the God of the bible.

So you chose the "god" of the pedophile cult jews invented to enslave gentiles?

OP is a faggot.

>>40998437
wtf are you even going on about anon. You don’t make sense.

OP, I want to say thank you for sharing your experience and you should thank yourself for putting in the work for your spiritual health and connection to God. Whether the Christian god is real or not, I believe that if you focus on the purity of your heart and the truth, all things go to where they rightfully belong. Meditate for awareness and pray for guidance.

>>40998437
lol what is happening here. I have no idea wtf you are saying or even referring to at this point.

You just keep repeating the words semantic error without a clear and concise explanation of why you are saying it.

At this point I don’t think you even know what you are saying