https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PosidoniusInteresting dude.> Posidonius, nicknamed "the Athlete" (Ἀθλητής), was born around 135 BC. He was born into a Greek family in Apamea, a Hellenistic city on the river Orontes in northern Syria. As historian Philip Freeman puts it: "Posidonius was Greek to the core". Posidonius expressed no love for his native city, Apamea, in his writings and he mocked its inhabitants.> Posidonius was celebrated as a polymath throughout the Graeco-Roman world because he came near to mastering all the knowledge of his time, similar to Aristotle and Eratosthenes. He attempted to create a unified system for understanding the human intellect and the universe which would provide an explanation of and a guide for human behavior.> He accepted the Stoic categorization of philosophy into physics (natural philosophy, including metaphysics and theology), logic (including dialectic), and ethics. These three categories for him were, in Stoic fashion, inseparable and interdependent parts of an organic, natural whole. He compared them to a living being, with physics the flesh and blood, logic the bones and tendons holding the organism together, and finally ethics—the most important part—corresponding to the soul.I was originally trying to research the possibility that Apollonius of Tyana was the Teacher of Righteousness, or at least that they were connected. This led me to a different Apollonius (Apollonius Molon) who learned from Posidonius.On the Jewish side, I also investigate the Hillel/Shammai conflict, which could be related too.People love to talk about the historicity of Jesus, but I think we need to develop a fuller picture of all of the thought leaders at the time to see where Jesus as a thought leader might emerge. I think Jesus may exist separately as a military leader though, and there could be some confusion about two separate guys (one philosopher, one king) being collapsed into the same person.
>>41003365>Apollonius MolonMore on this guy:> Molon wrote on Homer and endeavored to moderate the florid Asiatic style of rhetoric. According to Josephus, in Against Apion, Apollonius Molon slandered the Jews. > Marcus Tullius Cicero studied with him during his trip to Greece in 79–77 BC, as did Gaius Julius Caesar a few years later. Perhaps it is at least partially due to Apollonius Molon's instruction that Caesar, and Cicero especially, achieved fame as orators in the Roman Republic.
>>41003365He is an interesting dude but this isn’t paranormal, is it?
>>41003468If we're talking about historical people who contributed to a myth, then I think it qualifies.
>>41003468Not OP here. I like this thread, thought leaders are paranormal enough.
>>41003386Both guys:https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1648-apollonius>It was at Rhodes, no doubt, that Apollonius appropriated the Judæophobic ideas of the Syrian stoic Posidonius (135-51 B.C.), who lived in that city, and thence circulated throughout the Greek and Roman world several wild calumnies concerning the Jews, such as the charges that they worshiped an ass in their temple, that they sacrificed annually on their altar a specially fattened Greek, and that they were filled with hatred toward every other nationality, particularly the Greeks. >These and similar malevolent fictions regarding the Jews were adopted by Apollonius, who, induced by the fact that the Jews in Rhodes and in Caria were very numerous (compare I Macc. xv. 16-24), composed an anti-Jewish treatise, in which all these accusations found embodiment. >While Posidonius had confined himself to incidental allusions to the Jews in the course of his history of the Seleucidæ (compare C. Müller, "Frag. Hist. Græc." iii. 245 et seq.), Apollonius outdid his master by undertaking a separate book on the subject. Such appears to have been the character of his treatise, which, according to Alexander Polyhistor, was a συσκευή (Eusebius, "Præparatio Evangelica," ix. 19), a polemic treatise—as Schürer renders the phrase —against the Jews. The polemic passages, however, must have been interwoven with a general presentation of a Jewish theme—probably a history of the origin of the Jewish people. For it is the complaint of Josephus that Apollonius, unlike Apion, far from massing all his anti-Jewish charges in one passage, had preferred to insult the Jews in various manners and in numerous places throughout his work (l.c. ii. 14).
>>41003536>The assumption that Apollonius' book was of a historic character is confirmed by the fragment in Alexander Polyhistor, which gives the genealogy of the Jews from the Deluge to Moses, and by an allusion of Josephus which indicates that the exodus from Egypt was also dealt with therein (l.c. ii. 2). In connection with the exodus, Apollonius gave circulation to the malicious fable that the Jews had been expelled from Egypt owing to a shameful malady from which they suffered, while he took occasion to blacken the character of Moses also and to belittle his law, characterizing the lawgiver of the Jews as a sorcerer and his work as devoid of all moral worth. >Besides, he heaped many unjust charges upon the Jews, reproaching them for not worshiping the same gods as the other peoples (l.c. ii. 7) and for disinclination to associate with the followers of other faiths (ii. 36). He thus represented them as atheists and misanthropes, and depicted them withal as men who were either cowards or fanatics, the most untalented among all barbarians, who had done nothing in furtherance of the common welfare of the human race (ii. 14). >No wonder these groundless charges excited the anger of Josephus, who believed that they corrupted and misled the judgment of Apion (l.c. ii. 7, 15 et seq.), and who therefore zealously devoted the entire second part of his treatise against Apion to a refutation of Apollonius. The latter was thus paid back in his own coin. Josephus does not hesitate to accuse him of crass stupidity, vaingloriousness, and an immoral life (l.c. ii. 36, 37).
Now Apollonius of Tyana:>Apollonius was born into a respected and wealthy aristocratic Greek household. His primary biographer, Philostratus the Elder (c.170 – c.247), places him c.3 BC – c.AD 97>Apollonius was a Greek philosopher and religious leader from the town of Tyana, Cappadocia in Roman Anatolia, who spent his life travelling and teaching in the Middle East, North Africa and India. He is a central figure in Neopythagoreanism and was one of the most famous "miracle workers" of his day.>His exceptional personality and his mystical way of life, which was regarded as exemplary, impressed his contemporaries and had a lasting cultural influence. Numerous legends surrounding him and accounts of his life are contained in the extensive Life of Apollonius. Many of the ancient legends of Apollonius consist of numerous reports about miracles that he was said to have performed as a wandering sage with his lifelong companion Damis. >Philostratus tells lengthy stories of Apollonius entering the city of Rome in disregard of emperor Nero's ban on philosophers, and later on being summoned, as a defendant, to the court of Domitian, where he defied the emperor in blunt terms. He had allegedly been accused of conspiring against the emperor, performing human sacrifice, and predicting a plague by means of magic. Philostratus implies that upon his death, Apollonius of Tyana entered heaven.- born in 3 BC according to primary biographer- traveled the world, including going to India, which Jesus is strongly indicated to have done so- Neopythagorean (strong connection to gnosticism, including the Platonic school which was Pythagorean)- "Damis" = Thomas = Thomas Didymus?- made friends and enemies in high places (reason for conspiracy and even murder against him?)- strongest base was Greek (what language was the original bible in?)
>>41003606Now Hillel the Elder.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_the_Elder> Hillel (Hebrew: הִלֵּל Hīllēl; variously called Hillel the Elder or Hillel the Babylonian; died c. 10 CE) was a Jewish religious leader, sage and scholar associated with the development of the Mishnah and the Talmud and the founder of the House of Hillel school of tannaim. He was active during the end of the first century BCE and the beginning of the first century CE.> He came from Babylon to Israel, although he was descended from David. His descendent Judah haNasi traced his lineage through both the female lineage of the Tribe of Benjamin and the family of David. This reminds me of something I've read about Jesus. Trusted sources have said he had these exact lineages. Granted, it's possible that many people did, but still interesting that this significant figure at the right place and time did too.> He is popularly known as the author of three sayings:>> - "If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And being for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?"> - "That which is hateful to you, do not do unto your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."> - "Be of the disciples of Aaron, loving peace and pursuing peace, loving mankind and drawing them close to the Torah."> The comparative response to the challenge of a prospective convert who asked that the Torah be explained to him while he stood on one foot, illustrates the character differences between Shammai and Hillel. Shammai dismissed the man. Hillel gently chided the man:>> "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."Hillel seems like a good man and in line with any stoic from the Greek world.
John the Baptist.> John the Baptist (c.6 BC – c.AD 30) was a Jewish preacher active in the area of the Jordan River in the early first century AD. He is also known as Saint John the Forerunner in Eastern Orthodoxy and Oriental Orthodoxy, Saint John the Immerser in the Baptist tradition, and as the prophet Yahya ibn Zakariya in Islam. He is sometimes referred to as John the Baptiser.> John is mentioned by the Roman Jewish historian Josephus, and he is revered as a major religious figure in Christianity, Islam, the Baháʼí Faith, the Druze faith, and Mandaeism; in the last of these he is considered to be the final and most vital prophet. He is considered to be a prophet of God by all of the aforementioned faiths, and is honoured as a saint in many Christian denominations. According to the New Testament, John anticipated a messianic figure greater than himself; in the Gospels, he is portrayed as the precursor or forerunner of Jesus. According to the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus himself identifies John as "Elijah who is to come", which is a direct reference to the Book of Malachi (Malachi 4:5), as confirmed by the angel Gabriel, who announced John's birth to his father Zechariah. According to the Gospel of Luke, John and Jesus were relatives.One thing I've always wondered is if "John" is just a variation of Oannes, the Akkadian/Sumerian god.I might be stretching it thin here, but:> Oannes (mythology), Greek name for Uanna, an Apkallu in Mesopotamian mythAnd what was the name of a significant queen in the Middle East at the time, Helena of Adiabene? Helena Ourania or Urania. Same etymology?> Julia Drusilla (Greek: Δρουσίλλη; AD 38–79) was a princess of the Roman client kingdom of Mauretania in North Africa. She was the daughter of Ptolemy of Mauretania and thus a great-granddaughter of Cleopatra VII and Mark Antony. She was married to the procurator Marcus Antonius Felix in the reign of Roman emperor Claudius and later the Emesene priest-king Sohaemus.
>>41003774> Oannes (mythology), Greek name for Uanna, an Apkallu in Mesopotamian myth>Apkallu or and Abgal (Akkadian and Sumerian, respectively) are terms found in cuneiform inscriptions that in general mean either "wise" or "sage".>In several contexts the Apkallu are seven demigods, sometimes described as part man and part fish or bird, associated with human wisdom; these creatures are often referred to in scholarly literature as the Seven Sages. Uranus:>Uranus is the seventh planet from the Sun.Chakra:>The concept of the chakra arose in Hinduism. Beliefs differ between the Indian religions: Buddhist texts mention four or five chakras, while Hindu sources often have six or seven.I might be connecting very separate things here, but with an understanding of the "as above, so below" philosophy, you can imagine they're looking for planets that correlate with endocrine systems (chakras), or something of that nature. And then, they're giving a god or archetype to refer to each of these things.A leader of such a tantric system might be a "Oannes".Curiously as mentioned above, Hillel the Elder came from Babylon.>He came from Babylon to Israel, although he was descended from David. His descendent Judah haNasi traced his lineage through both the female lineage of the Tribe of Benjamin and the family of David. >Hillel lived in Jerusalem during the time of King Herod and the Roman emperor Augustus. In the Midrash compilation Sifre, the periods of Hillel's life are made parallel to those in the life of Moses. At the age of forty Hillel went to the Land of Israel; forty years he spent in study; and the last third of his life he was the spiritual head of the Jewish people. A biographical sketch can be constructed that Hillel went to Jerusalem in the prime of his life and attained a great age. His 40 years of leadership likely covered the period of 30 BCE to 10 CE.
>>41003479>>41003485>I don’t know what paranormal means!
>>41003843It means "shit you don't understand", largely because it's woven up in a paradigm that prevents you from understanding it. Sorry, but being extra schizo doesn't give you any priority on the matter.It's not /pol/ because this isn't directly politically related, and it's not /his/ because this isn't a simple study of history (historians would reject speculation and keep to a rigorous method much like scientists).>>41003813The 40/40/40 division makes no sense. This would imply he became a leader at 80 years old and that he became a "student" at 40. If we simply eliminate the middle 40, viewing him as both a teacher and student in this time, we could say he died around 80 years old and came to Jerusalem around 30 BC. That makes some sense, although is obviously very speculative.He would have been a rather old man around the birth of John the Baptist and Apollonius of Tyana, who are only 3 years apart according to above quotes.
>>41003861Raymond Bernard:>Raymond Antoine Bernard (19 May 1923 – 10 January 2006) was a French esotericist, Rosicrucian, and freemason. Bernard was a member or founder of a number of different esoteric orders across decades. He was the grand master of French AMORC, a large Rosicrucian order, in Francophone countries. As part of AMORC, he founded the neo-Templar order the Renewed Order of the Temple with Julien Origas. Bernard left that order a few years later and gave leadership of it over to Origas.>Bernard left AMORC under uncertain circumstances in 1977 and was replaced in his position as grand master by his son, Christian Bernard. After leaving AMORC, Bernard founded the esoteric orders OSTI and CIRCES. As part of CIRCES, he was a personal advisor or friend to the president of Cameroon, Paul Biya. His connection to Biya attracted attention and controversy over the large financial donations Biya made to him and his orders, though their precise relationship is unclear. He was particularly active in spreading Rosicrucianism in Africa, and wrote several allegorical works about esotericism topics.Anon summary of his book, "The Unknown Life of Christ":> The Essene Teacher of Righteousness was Apollonius of Tyana, who, in the year AD 325 at the Council of Nicea, was replaced by a fictitious messiah called Jesus Christ: the greatest fraud in history. Raymond Bernard, PhD, discovered several sources that allegedly tell the true stories about Jesus and his family as members of the Essene Jewish sect. The story of his life is commingled with tales of his alleged traveling to India and Japan. Jesus appears to be a person whose life and story were developed by the Essenes. His imaginary crucifixion was further developed by the so-called Holy Roman Empire, who used the Christian religion as a political tool to control the masses.
>>41003978>Raymond BernardI have a few books of his. I'm looking through them now.From "Apollonius of Tyana the Nazarene" by Bernard:>When he was fourteen years of age, his father sent him to Tarsus to complete his education, which was previously conducted at home by private tutors. Tarsus was a town of pleasure as well as study and life there was soft and luxurious for a rich young man. On the banks of the Cydnus, along avenues bordered by orange trees, students of philosophy gathered to discuss the theories of Pythagoras and Plato with young women in colored tunics slashed to the hip, wearing Egyptian high triangular combs in their hair.No great revelation but sounds pretty kino.More:>No contemporary writers who lived at the time when Jesus is supposed to have lived make mention of him; though forged allusions to Jesus occur in the books of Livy and Josephus. In his "History of the Jews," written in the First century, at a time when Jesus would have enjoyed his greatest popularity among the Jews if he had existed, though pages and pages are devoted to persons of no importance whatever and who would have been forgotten forever had not Josephus mentioned them, there is not a single mention of Jesus in the original edition.>The closest original that can be found of the Jesus of the New Testament is a rabbi named Jehoshua Ben Pandira, who lived about a century B. C. In his "Life of Jehoshua," Dr. Franz Hartman states that this illegitimate child of a Jewish maiden, Stada, and a Roman soldier, Pandira, who is mentioned in the Talmud, was the original Jesus. He was referred to as a rabbi of not very great importance, who studied the mysteries in Egypt, and who was put to death by stoning after an attempted crucifixion.>Seeking a substitute for Apollonius, the Church fathers seized upon Jehoshua, and changing his name to that of the Druid sun god, HESUS, and shifting the date of his birth forward a century, he was transformed into Jesus.
>>41004000I just wonder if there's any possibility that through a figure like Izates of Adiabene, we could have the son of Hillel the Elder as Apollonius, meaning Apollonius' heritage DOES go back to the supposed Judah and Benjamin, which are likely allusions to something pre-Jew in a fundamental way.>During his youth Izates was sent by his father to the court of King Abinergaos I of Characene in Charax Spasinu.Hillel came from Babylon. Izates was sent away to Babylon (Charax Spasinu) in his youth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teacher_of_Righteousness>Although the exact identity of the Teacher is unknown, based on the text of the Community Rule, the teachers of the sect are identified as Kohanim (priests) of patrilineal progeny of Zadok (the first high priest to serve in Solomon's Temple), leading scholars to conclude the Teacher was a priest of Zadokite lineage.>Other documents from the Dead Sea Scrolls portray the Teacher as involved in a heavy conflict against a figure termed the "Wicked Priest," which has led to several proposals for their identity: a Sadducee (Zadokite) priest as the Teacher, possibly even the legitimate High Priest, against a "wicked" Jonathan Apphus. "Zadok" translates as "righteous" in Hebrew. The "Teacher of Righteousness" was a Zadok descendant. Zadok even translates as "Righteous".I wonder if Hillel could be of Zadok, and by proxy, Apollonius too. Particularly if Hillel, as Oannes/John, "baptized" Apollonius as part of his initiation. As part of the baptism, he takes on the name Izates, reflecting a Zoroastrian version of the Apkallu:>The yazatas collectively are "the good powers under Ahura Mazda", who is "the greatest of the yazatas".Yazatas -> Izates
