>>41039899
For the longest while this /omg/ general has been nothing but a pointless armchair magician creator. Listing a large archive of books nobody will ever be able to read in their lifetime to discover legit training methods that work is a waste of time, and this is exactly why this general ultimately died and only gets revived every now and then. This general is a "wild goose chase" simulator, people will just spend years reading and jumping from book to book, practice to practice, never really finding something that undeniably works, interpreting every coincidence as a "synchronicity" when nothing significant even happened as a result of whatever ritual they think they did, etc.

Somebody please, if even out of boredom, just filter out all of the deluge and post some specific books with legit methods of things that can be confirmed in a few weeks.

Example 1 - A book with an effective method for deepening self hypnosis trances.

Example 2 - A book with an effective qi gong method that allows you to feel qi energy for the first time within 2 weeks or so of training it (not directly or controlling qi, just beginning to feel it once for the first time). I've talked to so many qi gong practitioners online who recommend their specific lineage/school of qi gong and yet they admit they've never felt literal qi energy before. It's like they are practicing because of "sunken cost" and because they've invested so much time and effort they refuse to admit it's not legit and move on.

Example 3 - Or some other thing I haven't thought of that could be tested and confirmed by anyone and only takes a few weeks of training to finally test the result. There has to be a lot of things I don't know of that are like the other examples I mentioned. Like a specific method of creating a sigil that's fast and effective that can be tested on minor things and observed in real time.

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>>41040063
The problem with the examples you're asking for is that the practice of magic isn't understood down to the same granular, scientific level as something like mathematics, so there isn't some kind of get-magic-quick scheme that just universally works the same way for everyone. There is no governing body that has codified the rules. There are essentially just individuals who -think- they've got it all figured out but probably don't, and then there's individuals who -know- they don't have it all figured out but accept that it seems to work anyway.

I could tell you that most of my rites have been successes, but would you believe I'm telling the truth? And even if you thought I was truthful, would you really know if my experience was "magic" or was just a coincidence/hallucination? What sort of example would be a valid one to you?

>>41039899
I respect Buddhism and can see its value, but it’s like I am naturally hard-wired to be more favorable to something like esoteric Christianity or theistic traditions in general and less so to something like Buddhism, though I completely understand where it’s coming from. I know that one day I’ll have to study Buddhism more in depth to counter this, and to bring balance to myself and my internal biases, but even when I was a kid I was instinctively internally antagonistic to it for no good reason

Though it’s interesting how Buddhism and abrahamic religions on the surface level seem to pull in complete opposite directions, abrahamic and Buddhist tradition of a very interesting history of their decisive reactions towards each other

>>41040630
>The problem with the examples you're asking for is that the practice of magic isn't understood down to the same granular, scientific level
You mean "by you", I think it's a huge assumption to think that there isn't someone out there who has specific methods that atleast have an 80-90% success rate, and that success rate alone is pretty much a "universally works" method, because there are always exceptions. If some super single dose drug that cures cancer doesn't work for 20% of the population, that wouldn't mean it isn't a cure, it would still be a cure, it just doesn't work 100% of the time, but 80% is better than 0%.

>There is no governing body that has codified the rules.
You mean that we would even be privy to. Why would they even make their presence known?, any group like that would operate behind the scenes in secret, and likely kill off people who try to spread too much of that information (and that's exactly what I think is happening and why occult circles are just flooded with garbage rather than everybody knowing at least one person that has performed one undeniable supernatural feat in front of their face. If all of these occultists had real abilities and were learning from quality sources, magic would be a common and known phenomenon by now. I 100% believe that were all reading purposefully misguiding writings sprinkled with hints of truth (that's part of the subterfuge).

>I could tell you that most of my rites have been successes, but would you believe I'm telling the truth?
I'm not interested in anyone's boasts that can't be tested and proven to myself within a reasonable timeframe. I'd be much more interested in a method that you've used yourself like I mentioned. If you don't have one then you are just telling me that you didn't really learn anything from scratch and you are just "winging it" and in that case you can't really teach anything anyways because you are coasting by on luck (assuming you aren't just delusional).

>>41042427
>I'd be much more interested in a method that you've used yourself
Yeah, but there's no guarantees that a method used by another practitioner is going to work the same way for you, or work at all. I don't know that what I do is also something that works for "most" people because I'm not them.

If you want someone to give you such a specific answer, I would start by being more specific with your questions. You mentioned an "undeniable supernatural feat" - what do you mean by this, specifically? What feat or effect are you trying to witness that would satisfy you?

>>41039899
Experiences with liber V Vel reguli

>>41042762
>You mentioned an "undeniable supernatural feat" - what do you mean by this, specifically? What feat or effect are you trying to witness that would satisfy you?
Here's a simple example, let's say there's a step by step method for creating a sigil, and you creating a sigil for a simple low level reality manipulation task, like a specific coin being flipped and increasing the probability of it landing on heads to as high a degree as possible, whenever the sigil is invoked. If you flip that count 100 times and it lands on heads 100 times or even 80 or 90 times, that would be an undeniable supernatural feat, as the statistical likelihood of that happening is ridiculously low (ChatGPT - "The probability of a random coin flipped 100 times landing on heads 80 times is approximately 4.22 x 10^-9").

Something like that.

Or, we could do something even more "low level" and "fundamental" as like a basic practice that leads to overall self development and control. Like deepening hypnotic trance. I've practice self hypnosis, it's the closest thing to "magic" that any layperson can experience themselves, being able to control your bodies motor functions not with direct action, but with an intention, it's a "weird" and "foreign" experience because it feels as if your body is being controlled by something else, and technically that's true because that "something else" is your mind. I've played around with it a lot but I am unable to go into deep trances to experience the truly significant phenomenon (so a method for learning to enter deeper hypnotic trances would be useful and easy to test for anyone). Calling it supernatural may be a stretch, but it's still a useful skill/ability that can be used in ones occult pursuits.

Or how about some "energy work" method that allows one to quickly begin to "feel" energy within a 2 weeks or so of doing it every day. That would be something anyone could test very quickly, and it would be an undeniable result.

Anything like that.

>>41040063
Lol why bother with this James Randi/Dean Radin shit? Magic ain't real, siddhis ain't real, magic cum doodles is just another excuse to masturbate, goetic magicians are simply a niche subgroup of renaissance larpers, qi masters can "set newspaper on fire" but get the ever loving shit kicked out of them by MMA fighters, etc etc etc. At best, I'd say meditation trains people to calm the fuck down and focus on current objectives.

Why are the goetia classified as demon when a decent of amount of them don't seem to be evil?

Take Ipos who comes off as a self improvement demon, or Sallos who comes off as a valiant peaceable soldier riding a crocodile who creates loves or Gusion whomm is basically a relationship coach.

>>41042842
>Magic ain't real
1. Ok, so why are you here again? lol. This is like showing up to a gay porn site to write comments and tell everyone how gay it is. I'd understand if you were putting in a bit more effort or giving something better to train in as an alternative, but you are just telling people to just stop believing and stop trying without any proper reason or alternative path. Why bother?

2. We live on a planet where there is just as much proof for the existence of a specific God, as there is for magic, and yet billions of people believe in a specific religion and they don't even bother with the "James Randi/Dean Radin shit", they just practice blind faith. So if they can just blindly believe, why can't I believe and try to prove if it's true or not to myself?

3. I thought hypnosis was BS too until it worked for me, didn't take long either (a few weeks of trying), and now I use it as if it's a "extra limb" that I always had. Who knows if there isn't "magic" out there that works the same way. Seems fake and impossible until you do the training and become capable, and then all of a sudden it feels like an everyday natural thing once you can do it. There are a lot worse hobbies out there so I won't ever give up this pursuit.

>>41042762
I'll be awaiting your response, I hope you haven't abandoned the thread. If you are legit, there has to be some minor practice/method you can recommend.

>>41042861
It's just a way for a new religion to recontextualize spirits from previous or other religions. Like how Vajrayana recontextualizes some devas as boddhisattvas. Having said that, if an entity who is more powerful than you and seemingly non-malefic kicks your ass for bothering it with petty offerings and supplications, is it evil or just giving you what you deserve?

>>41042888
>why are you here?
Because I can be and can say whatever I want whichever way anyone feels about that. Simple as. Good luck with your bullshit, Mulder.

>>41042888
If you are the point where you are even bothered by a post like this then you need to keep practicing, because after a certain point it’s as silly and futile as arguing against someone who insists black cats don’t exist

None of this shit is real. Get an actual hobby where your efforts clearly result in progress. Like oil painting or whatever

>>41042914
You have no magic, loser.

>>41042910
>Because I can
That's not really an answer, that's a statement. Anybody can do anything they want, but like you asked me, "why bother?".
You can suck a dick too, are you going to do that? lol.

>>41042914
>If you are the point where you are even bothered by a post like this then you need to keep practicing
Not bothered, I just don't see any point in not responding because I'm bored and I have the free time right now.

>>41042922
>Get an actual hobby where your efforts clearly result in progress. Like oil painting or whatever
At least you gave a recommendation this time around. I don't think you get the simple idea that if this stuff genuinely does work, there would likely be people in power who would never let it become general accepted knowledge. It's like if aliens exist and visited the planet, you really think we'd ever get that classified info until decades after it happened and it was no longer relevant to where the common person could act upon that knowledge to their advantage?

>>41042943
If it works, you'd have found a grimoire or tantra that'd you'd be shilling to high heavens. But here you are lost in hypotheticals and potential possibilities. You gonna try out each of the million and one myriad paths of woo? Go ahead, cocksucker.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNoCpUudXNg

>>41042960
>If it works, you'd have found a grimoire or tantra that'd you'd be shilling to high heavens.
It would actually be better to keep it a secret and just benefit from everyone else's ignorance.

>You gonna try out each of the million and one myriad paths of woo? Go ahead, cocksucker.
You don't have to try a lot, some things just seem more feasible at face value and those are the ones you should try, with the #1 criteria for me being that it's a method that is "falsifiable" (can be proven false with some kind of strict testing). That's exactly why I was drawn to hypnosis (which eventually worked for me), and it's exactly why I never bothered with things like "Law of Attraction", because it can't really be falsified and people just gaslight themselves and others with the "you didn't do it right" excuse. Some things are clearly more plausible than others, you don't need to try them all (that was the entire point of my first post in this thread of why /omg/ general was always a garbage general based on how it was structured - a glorified library with no guidance or hints). I'm glad I continued with this, because if didn't I'd never have discovered self hypnosis, which has been very useful to me since I gained the ability to do it. So I've already received a "minor reward" for my investment of time and effort, so I'm gonna keep going and hope for greater things.

>>41042762
Are you still here and do you plan on responding to my post here?: >>41042835

Gonna leave this thread for an hour or so, hopefully you come back and post something by then.

>>41042922
There is zero argument in this matter, there is no debate to be had, either you practice or you don’t

I know you are trying to flame, but there is zero point in even doing this, because this point is the only point and reply that can be returned to you

>>41042999
>It would actually be better to keep it a secret and just benefit from everyone else's ignorance.
Lmao masturbatory cope.

>You don't have to try a lot
Yeah, come back when you actually have something. O-or are you gonna be one them clandestine secret-keeping gatekeepers you you jerk your tiny dick to?

>>41043039
There is zero argument in this matter, there is no debate to be had. Either you can demonstrate magic as real, or you can't. Otherwise you'd just be a stupid cunt running his mouth about absolutely nothing.

I fear Samsara so much anons, I recently tried to email a buddhist learning center(Gelug tradition affiliate) but I feel like the email i sent was too awkward, I've been trying to read up more on Dharma in anticipation but I dont want to look like a poser, any advice?

>>41043127
>fear
ngmi

>>41042960
Actually I recommend just doing standard Golden Dawn stuff every single day +meditation + opening by watchtower), devotional religious practices, HGA related stuff and then planetary work. If you want specific grimoires, the Arbatel, Solomonic evocations from the testament of Solomon and the planetary stuff from Arthur Gauntlet’s book works wonders but you have to focus on self-initiating into these planets first by really working through each until you get a result. After a certain amount of practice, simple prayers will be much more effective and you can very much feel an archangel or saint just by praying to them. Most importantly is to do good and keep a standard of how you act in the world, donate to charity, don’t do anything that incurs bad karma etc. Patience is also very important, since you need the faith to pull through before you see any results. If you approach this stuff with good intentions, you will get results


Key word is to humble yourself before God, align your Will to God’s Will which is your True Will, and submit to whatever God wants for you from every single operation. Put the Great Work and your spiritual progress before all things, for as above so below, theurgical works do indeed affect your day to day circumstances because what will happen inside of you will be reflected outside. View the work a service to God, and all the results you procure as such, for these things shall sow the fruit of eternal joy. This is a very Christian oriented framework that works wonders for me specifically (which is summed up by Matthew 6:25-33). For a Buddhist the method of operation and mindset would be completely different, but always work towards your highest spiritual aspirations rather than any attachment towards any result. You will have to suffer some downs and lows before going up, but it’s worth it in the long run since everything that is spiritually bad for you is being pushed out your life for something much more substantial.

>>41043136
What else am I supposed to do? I am making "right effort" by trying to reach out to the 3 jewels, but to really think about how endless samsara is, it gives me the urgency to try and do a small little effort atleast

>>41043141
>>41042960
I was describing the method that works best for me, but if you follow the A.A. System of Magic you will get your where you want to be. It’s very effective, and if you don’t know what path to take, Thelema pretty much makes you discover yourself and find out what works best directly for you as Thelemites inevitably go into their niches - it cuts through a lot of bullshit to the very core of what your path is.

Invoke in the mornings, banish in the evenings, thelemic rituals like star ruby and liber v Vel reguli are good as well just look into what you are getting yourself into with liber V. Also, if you don’t line the Christian tone of my practices you can always tweak anything yourself, and use the Orphic hymns for example

>>41043061
>
There is zero argument in this matter, there is no debate to be had. Either you can demonstrate magic as real, or you can't. Otherwise you'd just be a stupid cunt running his mouth about absolutely nothing.
Why should I care to do that unless I was insecure about its existence and wanted to prove a point to myself through you? some people are meant to practice some people aren’t, clearly you coming here is a sign of curiosity, I gave you all the info u need so that if this was your path you would pursue it. After that point, if you don’t believe in magic then that’s your problem

>>41043127
You could start by not caring how you appear to others and not by clinging to any sense of fear, or need to escape elsewhere

>>41043141
In end, and I can only speak through my perspective as I can only perceive It through Myself, it boils down to how God manifests Himself through You

>>41043222
Ok, im trying, I know that I won't literally physically go anywhere, the center I contacted is just a couple hours where I live, but still, I am deeply affected by samskaras/vasanas and I still feel as though I need a qualified teacher to help guide me. I've tried many youtube videos but it feels too impersonal. I don't know i just need a real sense of community I guess.

>>41043278
Of course you should seek out a teacher and use that energy you have to be productive in seeking one out, but if you are following a path of no attachment surely you can start right now with being aware in the way and mindset you approach it

>>41043061
>come back when you actually have something.
1. Why bother, won't I be too busy with other amazing things by then?. If I ever did release anything legit, I would time it to be released when I'm on my deathbed so that I don't have to deal with any consequences of the aftermath lol.
2. It's not as if you would be here, this is an anonymous forum, the chances of us encountering eachother again in a thread and both knowing who it is, is low.

>>41043141
This just sounds like religion with extra steps.

>>41043199
>still running her mouth
>still has nothing to show for it
Lmao keep shoveling bullshit, bro. You have nothing. Also, I think you have me confused with the other guy.

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>>41043326
I know, like I said ive been really trying to follow the fundamentals before i move to the next level, see pic attached, i have this saved and ive been thinking on all these points as much as I can. I am particularly fixated on Impermanence, as i have direct experience in feeling how impermanent things really are.

>>41043344
this dude trolling both skeptics and believers kek

>>41043349
>her
????

Sorry, I am not your discord kitten

>>41043365
>has nothing else to attack but the misgendering bit
LmAaooOoooo loser

>>41043344
> This just sounds like religion with extra steps.
Pretty much is

Magic ain't real. If it were, these /omg/ losers wouldn't be so desperately trying to "debate" internet randos.

>>41043141
>>41043182
Inclusive Intersectional Frankenlarps

>>41043384
Yep, we are the Burger King Kids club down here

>>41043392
>we
For one thing, I don't mix Indic concepts like karma with Western magic. For another, there is no "we" other than that we're all opinionated retards.

>>41043402
Some anon posted in another thread about how you have to cultivate qi or whatever for successful goetic evocation.
I felt like responding, but I thought what for? Let him be his own kind of retard.

>>41043402
Karma is really more of a logical common sense concept if anything, I don’t think the whole idea of cause and effect is really exclusionary to dharmic religions

>>41043361
>this dude trolling both skeptics and believers kek
1. I'm not trolling lol.

2. I'm a skeptic, and I don't consider that other guy a "true skeptic" because he isn't interested nor is he willing to experiment with or test anything. He simply practices "disbelief", just doing that alone doesn't make you a skeptic in my book, in fact it means you've already decided that something is false rather than actually being skeptical of it's validity. Skepticism requires doubt but not 100% belief in that doubt, or else it's just a belief at that point, and not real skepticism.

3. It really just sounds like religious practice to me. It just sounds like putting in extra effort and adding extra theatrics to being a religious person. I also find it too ironic of a practice that it invokes the same Christian God and even the angels of that faith in it's practice, which is why Golden Dawn never interested me. It seems like a practice that is in denial of itself, because if the beings you are invoking are real, wouldn't they go against you and suppress your abilities. Unless the belief is that the Bible is a book of lies and the beings are real but the stories about them are false, and that just requires too many "what if's" for me to sink months and years of time into a practice, there's too many variables to account for and too much that could go wrong (including nothing happening which just means you wasted months and years of time). Atleast if I was part of a legit Golden Dawn membership I could get some secret society perks like the Freemason Brotherhood does, but practicing this all on your own just seems like to big a leap of faith for me. Too much investment of time and effort, nothing you can quickly test to see if it's legit.

>>41043371
>Pretty much is
That's why I never bothered with it.

>>41043429
Like what do you expect me to say, ‘don’t sin’? There is really no true real thing as sin anyway, just manifestations of adultery from the truth

>>41043417
And then there's retards who set up altars to spirits from the goetic catalogue like it's a religious thing. I'm not talking about the S Connoly type demonolators either. I'm talking about retards who actually bothered to follow instructions from a grimoire but then inserted their own shit at the end.

>>41043429
Nah. It retardedly adds a bullshit spiritualist aspect to cause and effect. If you shoot someone clean in the head, he dies. That's cause and effect. If there's witnesses or if the cops manage to trace the murder back to you, you go to jail. Also cause and effect. But to say that there's some cosmic knockback for that shooting is simply conjecture. The people who believe magic has karmic effects should just stick to Buddhism or Hinduism and not mess with magic at all.

>>41043430
I mean the Golden Dawn works on the that you have the necessary personal beliefs that would allow you to work with it, if you find yourself unable to reconcile it with your world view then go elsewhere

>>41043430
kekekek and you're neither a believer nor a skeptic
you're just teasing the dogs behind the gates on either side of the fence

>>41043477
>But to say that there's some cosmic knockback for that shooting is simply conjecture.

What say you about entropy then? The energy of that shooting will surely reflect out to the cosmos, even if it's in an infintesimally small way

>>41043477
That logically applies to working with magic, even if you are deeply rooted in something like Islam or Christianity. You do black magic -> God and angelic beings will no longer offer any protection against the demons or energies you worked with affecting you to -> logical karma. You work with an angel and do something wrong -> the angel you are working with punishes you to teach you a lesson = logical karma

>>41043489
I say nothing because why would I add anything into the grimoire magic I practice that isn't actually asked for in the grimoires? What the fuck next will you sperge about, Deepak Chopra? Quantum physics? String theory? Retards like you can't sit still with one larp and have this pathological need to mix in more and more and more extraneous things.

>>41043501
I'm practically atheist other than the fact I'm not materialist in my outlook. The religious ideology that dresses the framework of grimoiric magic is simply that - dressing. Because "Solomonic" magic has its roots in pagan Alexandria. It's the techniques of employing one spirit against another that works, or the technique of working down a hierarchy of spirits to compel one particular spirit that works - not so much the god-bothering bending-over of religious nuts.

>>41043487
>kekekek and you're neither a believer nor a skeptic
I'm skeptical of something so I test it, if it works I believe it, this isn't rocket science. But we don't have unlimited time and some things can't be tested in a timely fashion, so those things will be filtered out.

>>41043481
>I mean the Golden Dawn works
If there's one thing I learned about the occult/supernatural space, is that people tend to have a very subjective and loose definition of "it works", and this is why nonsense like "law of attraction" has a general, with guys saying they manifested their favorite brand bread appearing in the aisles of the grocery store as an example of law of attraction "working". My favorite example was a guy saying that he KNOWS 100% without a doubt that he didn't forget to lock his door when he left for work and he used law of attraction to unlock his door, and when he got home it was unlocked, and that means LOA worked (obvious self delusion).

When people are desperate for a result and desperate to believe in something, they will rationalize any and everything as a result, they will throw their standards in the dumpster and accept anything as a "synchronicity" or proof that "it finally worked". This goes double for people who are the mercy of the "sunken cost fallacy" (those who have invested a lot of time and effort into that practice), as their minds will prevent them from admitting it didn't work and quitting because they can't mentally handle losing all of the time and effort they already invested. It's like those guys who refuse to get their children paternity tested when they feel obvious doubts due to recent circumstances, because they are afraid to realize all of that time and effort was a waste and a lie.

I am only interested in continuing to practice things that are undeniably true and can be strictly tested in a way that accounts for my own cognitive biases (self delusion = time and effort wasted).

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>>41043539
>Because "Solomonic" magic has its roots in pagan Alexandria.

>>41043548
so you filtered out the gd system or you tested it?

>>41043548
>i want to believe
>but only some retarded things
>not all of them
What is the fucking point of putting up the pretense of scientific respectability if you only test some things but wave others away with your hand? Lmao thoroughly fake and gay.

>>41043539
That’s your outlook though which unironically more compatible with Buddhism, which isn’t even close to even the mindset I take in practice or compatible with I how I practice and approach the same thing, in fact even if we do the same rituals the utterly different fundamental mindset we approach them would essentially make them completely different in nature. So I don’t get how this is relevant as to why I shouldn’t mix talking of Karma with western magic, since I work western magic within a specific framework

>>41043588
Hey, if you wanna be a retard, that's up to you. But I've experienced no karmic knockback effect from goetic practice, and I don't experience spooky hauntings. All that despite not believing in or worshipping the Abrahamic god. I might recite prayers or godnames as instructed in a grimoire, but otherwise I'm godless. Which is why I'm saying you're a retard who's full of shit.

>>41043557
Yup. Exactly the kind of stuff I was thinking about. You find that technique in so-called Solomonic magic too.

>>41043611
You work with what you believe and sow the fruits within that belief system

>>41043648
My first thought in response to that was "then why would you choose to be a retard and limit yourself to a system that fucks you?" But I think a better response is "cool, then I'm reaping all the fruits and none of the nonsense."

>>41043648
Believing in something is essentially the same as taking on a contract, that’s kind of the basis that Judaism is built on. A lot of rules, but if you follow them you get a lot of benefits but if you break them then you get the reverse

>>41043663
Because I am concerned with the long run, rather than any short term transient gains, but I am not here to convert you or anything I am just explaining where I am coming from. My system works for me, yours works for you.

>>41043663
>>41043674
>Because I am concerned with the long run, rather than any short term transient gains
Hahaha the oh so subtle flex of self-perceived superiority. But whatever. Have fun with that.

>>41043586
>pretense of scientific respectability
It's not about respectability, it's simply about not wasting my time and effort. It's really that simple.

>>41043567
>so you filtered out the gd system or you tested it?
I didn't see anything in it that could be "tested" in a timely fashion. A lot of these things are set up in a way that they can't be "falsified" and structured so that the "tester" is more likely to gaslight themselves with "I didn't do it right" or "I need to practice for longer", rather than assuming it doesn't work.

Do you know of any Golden Dawn practice, that is something simple and falsifiable that anyone can test with 4 weeks or less of daily practice? (I haven't found anything).

Even the LBRP requires one to maintain a lot of complicated visualizations continuously during the ritual, memorize and enact their positioning, gestures, names of angels, etc. With so much room for you to just tell yourself "nope, my mind wandered a bit during the visualization, that tiny 2 second gap is why it didn't work". Plus what would even be considered "working", what does LBRP undeniably result in?

I honestly wouldn't mind joining the official Golden Dawn and investing the time and effort with the whole song and dance if I got the perks of membership, but making something like this a personal practice just seems like I'd be setting myself up to join the SCC (Sunken Cost Club), where I just keep gaslighting myself about why I can't produce a significant result, and interpreting every minor occurrence in life as a result.

>>41043611
Don't let anybody gaslight about Karma. Karma is a human coping mechanism to project our flimsy ever changing concept of morality onto the universe, as if existences as meager as ourselves are the arbiters of what "ought to be" in the universe. This is something I often ask Christians to question, what if the story of Job in the Bible is just a microcosm of a game being played between two "higher beings" ("God" and "Satan"), and to us it's this horrible story, but to higher beings it's just a fun game, like a game of chess, and our lives are as insignificant to beings of that level of existence, as a chess piece is to any of us during a chess game. Karma is us trying to project morality onto a universe when we don't fully understand the scope of existence and we overestimate how much we matter.

Karma doesn't even make sense when you think about it, because humans are just based on probability more likely to accrue negative karma rather than pay off their karmic debt (just based on our biological hard wiring), so it just sets up an infinite loop of constant reincarnation and suffering. It doesn't make any sense no matter what angle you look at it, unless it's some system set up by a sadist all powerful being, then it makes sense I guess, but still retarded. Pretty much nobody is ever going to pay off their karmic debt and escape the cycle, because you are just more likely to do "bad" things in life than "good", and if doing "bad" things means you get born into a worse life, that worse life also makes you more likely to do worse things lol. It's so retarded, it's a cycle that sets everyone up for failure, you have to be a masochist to believe it's true.

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>>41043696
Everything takes time, but you could do work concerning receiving visions in dreams. A proper vision isn’t something that you can hush up to being a coincidence or a vague connection, it’s a pretty direct premonition of something which would be completely impossible to know before hand (think a dream of a place you have never seen or been before, and you end up in that exact place, you meet a person in your dream who is stated to be a Sagittarius and you meet someone who looks the exact same and guess what? Not a minor one day only meeting, I mean someone who becomes important)

>>41043696
>
Even the LBRP requires one to maintain a lot of complicated visualizations continuously during the ritual, memorize and enact their positioning, gestures, names of angels, etc. With so much room for you to just tell yourself "nope, my mind wandered a bit during the visualization, that tiny 2 second gap is why it didn't work". Plus what would even be considered "working", what does LBRP undeniably result in?

It really isn’t like that, if you just keep practicing and if you put in the right effort you’ll be fine, you don’t need to be perfect in your practice at all. You can fuck up hard and still get results

>>41043716
You’ll never guess what happens if you put your hand in boiling water

>>41043724
>Everything takes time
Yes, and if you leave enough time, and the expected outcome is open enough to interpretation, one can convince themselves that anything "worked".

Having a dream is not a "result", that doesn't produce any tangible phenomena you can observe, experience or test in real time. You can literally prime your subconscious for things and your mind will act upon that, that isn't proof a ritual worked, it's proof your brain works.

Is that really how low your standards are?, you are putting in all of this time and effort just to get "visions"?, that's worth it to you?

>>41043746
>You can fuck up hard and still get results
Like I said before - "what does LBRP undeniably result in?"

What even is the "results" you are talking about, what specifically?, because if it's something subjective, and you give a ritual an unlimited timeframe to "meet your demands", you've created a fraudulent framework, because it gives a lot of leeway for you to interpret anything that happens as a "result".

>>41043765
I can only assume you quoted the wrong person because your response has nothing to do with what I discussed with relation to karma lol.

>>41043819
>
Is that really how low your standards are?, you are putting in all of this time and effort just to get "visions"?, that's worth it to you?
You asked for something to test and I gave it to you, and I literally said for you to not accept anything that could possibly be chalked up to your mind being good at guessing as a result.

I told you the standard you should keep for the test, it should be direct information that is specific and detailed enough for it to rule out any coincidences or subconscious intuition:
1) if you have a vision of a room and you end up there, the room has to be the exact same down to the same detail
2) a vision concerning a person has to be very specific, they need to have the same features and a specific attribute (star sign, name) that aligns with someone who you meet irl later, furthermore they can’t be someone of little consequence
3) events need to mirror their real life counterpart very specifically, you can include someone saying an ultra specific sentence for example down to the word etc. That’s the strict standard you should keep for your test, you can go even stricter if you wany


You are hopeless if you don’t understand any of this, because I am not going to play this game any more and I am not going to reply to any more bullshit or attempts at gaslighting what I said. In fact, I want you to paraphrase my post in your own words to make sure you understand what I am saying, because I am not spending 4 hours trying to explain the same thing over and over again.

>>41043872
I am talking someone you never met before ofc

>>41043819
LBRP honestly isn’t a good way to test magic, it’s a good why to get into magic and learn how to do it, but its results are very subjective. Working with spirits brings specific results, but you can’t even contact them without spiritual practice hence LBRP, and I don’t recommend someone who doesn’t believe what they are doing to contact spirits - it’s something that’s too dangerous to play around with like some game

>>41043765
The existence of the hand and the boiling water is immediately verifiable though. The karmic cycle or reincarnation and other such dharmic phenomena supposedly happen after we die. And for some reason we can't remember any of it (how convenient). So your glib appeal to common sense is ironically lacking in common sense.

>>41043898
If you work with a spirit with a specific set of morals, you work align with that spirit’s morale framework otherwise you logically get that spirit to work against you. If you work Goetia without a theistic framework it is understood you fulfill a contract and make sacrifices to that demon, right? And if you call upon higher beings to control that demon, you work with what the higher beings want you to act right? And if you believe in a supreme being, and call upon that supreme being, you logically act in accordance with your spiritual beliefs right? Because if you don’t the cause and effect is that these spirits will work against you, or will have the ability to overpower you, that’s direct karma

If you curse someone you are opening yourself up to the energies of that curse more than the person you are cursing, because you are the one who is most near that energy, direct karma

>>41043872
Dude, this is not a real test, and there's too many variables, and it's open ended enough that you can convince yourself that any person you meet is finally that person.

Also, what if someone is an introvert and barely goes out, will you argue that they "ruined the magic" because they didn't leave their house often enough?

What if they only meet that person 10 years later, would you argue that "it still worked" even though it took 10 years?

Dude, you are Exhibit A of the people who delude themselves into having low standards because of their desperation.

>the room has to be the exact same down to the same detail
You would never even remember all of those details, your mind makes you reinterpret things all the time, especially dreams which fade from your mind quickly. What are you gonna do, keep a "dream journal" and write things down as soon as you wake up, at that point I'd much rather test lucid dreaming and astral projection methods than trying to produce random visions. Atleast I'd gain the ability to lucid dream and that would be fun and practical.

>star sign
You know what, I'm sorry, this is my fault, I'm wasting my time, you're right. You can move on.

ON ANOTHER NOTE, ANYBODY READING THIS POST WHO HAS AN EFFECTIVE AND SIMPLE LUCID DREAMING METHOD THAT WORKED QUICKLY FOR YOU, PLEASE POST IT.

>>41043898
I'm not even going to try to go along with his lazy boiling water response, he needs to put in a bit more effort and explain his point for me to bother arguing against it lol.

>>41043939
Oh Jesus Christ, it really isn’t. There is really no possible room for interpretation when you actually do get a result because I know from personal experience, it’s like trying to gaslight someone who is on a lsd trip that the lsd was a placebo, you think that there is room for doubt because you are thinking of normal dreams and you aren’t opening up yourself to the possibility that you may get something completely different due to the bias you have. I am sorry, but a result is undeniable and not up for question actually, it really is that direct. If you don’t believe it’s possible that’s on you.

But if you had a dream of meeting a blonde woman with pink highlights wearing a green flower print dress born in September with the name Amber in a cafe, and if you meet someone in a cafe the next day with all these attributes and the exact same next day, and if the woman becomes your fiancé (and you wrote down the exact dream in a journal, in detail, before going to the cafe) would that or would that not be a coincidence?

>>41043934
Yeah nah... I already addressed this. I'm a godless fedorafag outside of magic. I don't treat any of the entities in any deferential way. It's a one for one trade, eg a chicken, a goat, sometimes just grains of barley. If they ask for something weird I just issue the license to depart and they leave. There has been no issue with spirits working against me, whether demonic or angelic. And I don't have to do any Christian things in my main life to please angels. Honestly, even the angels were pagan gods at some point. Even the capital G God of Abrahamism was pagan once. The religious ideology is in flux but the techniques are the mainstays. Your thinking about this is all wrong and I base this on empirical experience.

>>41043939
>Also, what if someone is an introvert and barely goes out, will you argue that they "ruined the magic" because they didn't leave their house often enough?
Then they’ll get a dream of whatever they can

>What if they only meet that person 10 years later, would you argue that "it still worked" even though it took 10 years?
It’s not going to be like that, the test is supposed to work within a specific timeframe anyway

I mean it’s YOUR test man, if you want to do it follow through with YOUR strict rules with how it is carried out

>>41043724
The David Rankine book? I tried a bunch of these and they didn't work. Lame larp.

>>41043477
>believes in spirits who do evil
>doesn't believe in spirits of justice who do good
Hmmm.

>>41043716
>humans are just based on probability more likely to accrue negative karma rather than pay off their karmic debt (just based on our biological hard wiring)
>nobody is ever going to pay off their karmic debt and escape the cycle, because you are just more likely to do "bad" things in life than "good"
Lot of assumptions in here.
But maybe the point is that to escape you have to stop living in a mindset of competing against your neighbor, to a mindset of loving your neighbor

>>41045028
Wrong. I don't believe in either good or evil. And the spirits don't view it in those simplistic terms either. If the God of the bible sends a bear to kill 42 boys or young men for mocking some bald old man, who is the evil one in that scenario by your mental gymnastics?

>>41045084
>And the spirits don't view it in those simplistic terms either
Depends which spirits.

>If the God of the bible sends a bear to kill 42 boys
Satan might be controlled opposition to be honest.

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>>41045144
Just my take, with incomplete knowledge of course:
Saturn is god of the Old Testament.
Jews worship on Saturn's holy day.
Saturn is like a hell warden that watches over demons, and enforces karma, and controls the doings of evil in the world. Evil has to exist, so Saturn is the aspect of God that rules over the evil, and works it out for a good end.

The Jews follow the Oral Law, which is basically legal loopholes so that they can break the spirit of the law using the letter of the law. Which is essentially satanism because it is the systematic breaking of God's moral laws to allow themselves to do evil without getting punished for it.

Jesus is the Messiah. Redemption from the evils of Saturn. More of a Solar/Venusian double archetype. Where love is the law, and there is no law against love.

Saturn has power over the material ward. Which is another sense is the Hell Wardens and Demons given power over the world. But there is great learning power and freedom in allowing so much evil to take place in this world. And the evil is bound by legality.