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if your too in your head about it, the negative "god dammit!" when they come up will ensure it keeps coming. I found this post helpful when I started

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>>41130844
>Is this some kind of brute force thing
kind of. a more correct way to put it, would be to say that it gets better progressively each day by a tiny amount. at some point in 1-2 years you won't have any random thoughts. there will be silence and rarely a thought will arise without you intending. but the interaction between you and the thought will be the same, though the thought will have less power over you, it won't consume or absorb you into it.

the thing is, you are now filled with "spirits" (mental creatures, thought forms). they are subconscious automatons, randomly repeating actions, lifeforms of their own.
some are of the form of eggregores - culturally shared ideas. some are memes. some are just too weird to classify.
but they are all infestation of the mind. it is not the mind calling them forth. they assault the mind, but the NPC does not perceive it as such, he thinks this is normal.

when you keep resisting and intentionally paying attention to the whole process, the doors are closed, no new infestation occurs, while that which already is there, slowly dies off over years.

this part is now a bit esoteric:
the mental faculty uses the brain as the steering wheel of the body (not the other way around). what i mean to point out is, that there is (obviously) a link between mind and brain.
now you can improve your brain and indirectly (thats the hope) improve your mind:
nourish your brain with the most nutritious "food". im not talking about eating. through the spine fluids go down, when lustful, are turned into semen and go to waste. if not lusting/no orgasm and especially if you do prostrations, these fluids are led back up again into the skull.
the pineal gland is pressurized and nourished.

so if you wanna boost your meditation, turn monk or minimize lust to the best of your ability + prostrate periodically, like 3x a day for a 4-5 times/each. don't rush it, do 1 prostration and feel the blood go to your brain, 2-3s then up, 2-3s then down

>>41131482
This anon knows what they are talking about. Namo buddhaya.

>>41130844
Do metta meditation. Check out the path to nibbana by David Johnson

I meditate, but this getting rid of thoughts that some people talk about isn't an ideal to me at all. I think that bit of chaos in the mind is interesting and leads to nice stuff, like a person you haven't thought of in a while coming to mind.

I once spoke with an older man who had meditated for many years. He was very interesting in that he kept making unusual and creative connections between ideas. Whatever he was doing in meditation seemed to be working out for him. I don't think someone could get to be like him if their goal in meditation is to shut out random thoughts.

>>41130844
You're failing because you have desire. You said you want access concentration. So you desire gibberish. I assume your meditative state is most awesome gibberish. Explain what is access concentration, and we can start.

>I want access concentration
These are your own words. Think about it

>>41132583
What do you say to the higher level Buddhist who realizes even the thoughts of Plato are like bees building a hive in samsara? These are also Nietzsche's words

>>41132621
And the Lankavatara Sutra disparages ALL philosophy in favor of the highest path. Just meditate on Dharma, Bliss, and Self. You'll like it

>>41131482
Great post. Thank you traveller

>>41132628
>This refers to the depths of the
closely-guarded doctrine. All beings have the Buddha-Nature. There is no discrimination
between Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. The nature and characteristics of the Three Treasures are
the Eternal, Bliss, Self, and the Pure. (Nirvana Sutra)

>>41132621
That just isn't for me. I'm fine with having thoughts. I would probably think otherwise if I believed it meant I would earn a bad reincarnation or something.
>captcha: Sp0ts

>>41132713
Yes thoughts are fine as per the Lankavatara Sutra, concepts are not. I'll find the quotation. But the Lankavatara is a very advanced teaching, if you are to practice Buddha with thoughts you must be somehow a Master

Ok I couldn't find the exact quotation but what I think you need to hear is to not have thoughts of Mind-attachment

>>41132713
Same Anon. Basically in Yogacara any thought you are attached to goes into the storehouse consciousness, which determines your rebirth.

https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=30399

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>>41132583
You don't get rid of or shut out thoughts. You let them drift through, watch them, and let them pass/subside.

>>41132621
Ironically enough both Socrates and Nietzsche attained. Read about the eerie bliss and serenity N had in his last ten "madness" years. And read his final "madness" letters, noting the hallmarks of ego death.

>>41130844
Yes. If you do breathwork just before mediatation, it will hack your brain into a deep meditative state. Just make sure to pick a breathwork with breath retention with empty lungs.

There's one (or several actually) of breathing with Sandy, just pick 15 minutes one.

Then as you finish it, meditate right away.

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>>41130844
If you are truly interested in practicing meditation, you should have a monk as your teacher. It's better and safer than practicing on your own.

I wonder what you're training for? to have special powers Or to escape from samsara?

>>41131180
The fun part is you can do the same with mathematical paradoxes, it's great.

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>>41130844
>I've been trying
Stop trying.

>>41135351
who is going to pick that monk? monks arent a standardized commodity that you can just have safely teaching you something, they come with baggage. practice yoga nidra, that is basic meditation, you dont even have to sit

>>41135278
>Just make sure to pick a breathwork with breath retention with empty lungs.
breath retention practices have certain uses
stillness meditation is not one of them
breath should be smoove and even if one ever wants to get past breathwork and just cultivate awareness, which is where the real benefit of stillness arises
any active practice should be followed up with just stillness in order for it to be maximally effective

>>41134620
>You don't get rid of or shut out thoughts. You let them drift through, watch them, and let them pass/subside.
this is a poor method, if one ever wishes to clear the mind properly
the proper way is to immediately return to practice the instant any deviation is noticed
random thoughts have their habit energy
one doesnt eliminate their habit energy by doing anything but "the replacement habit" the instant the deviation is noted
many times the response to this post is "yeah that's pretty much what I meant" but when you boil it down, there is great benefit in this distinction

The biggest divide between different schools of meditation is between the sects that view silencing the mind as desirable and those that think that shit is retarded. Each also dogmatically declares their version to be the only legitimate practice with one side stamping their feet and repeating how anything else isn't real Meditation while their opposition makes mocking analogies to lobotomy

>>41132713
>I'm fine with having thoughts
the matter becomes that when extra deep states arise, those states are destroyed by random thoughts
if the great stillness arises....if the light of samahdi arises...random thoughts consume their root potential and immediately destroy the states achieved
thus it becomes important from a meditative advancement standpoint, to be able to have a calm mind free of randomly arising thoughts, the awareness can remain focused for extended periods of time

>>41132583
this is a misconception that cultivating awareness to the point that randomly arising thoughtforms cease altogether necessarily prevents creative thought from happening

>>41136309
My zazen is pretty good, I can go like 2 minutes just sitting with no thoughts. I forgot how I did it. I took a meditation class at Cornell like 15 years ago from this lady who studied in a cave or something.

Well I do remember how I did it, I would smash any thought that appears with the Om syllable until they stopped appearing. But I was like 18 and nobody taught me this so I can't recommend it

>>41136329
The best thing about zazen is you don't try/will to meditate. As soon as I sit and cross my legs my thoughts stop. Then in waking consciousness I have a constant stream of thought that moves at a moderate pace

>>41136309
84,000 methods of cultivation
all legitimate
but it just remains a fact that things like chanting your way to a still mind are actions that consume energy and thus their efficiency is limited
my advancements were all made by extracting every last efficiency from the methods employed
and augmenting methods as necessary to increase efficiencies

>>41136329
>My zazen is pretty good, I can go like 2 minutes just sitting with no thoughts
"pretty good" is that being but a single breath
its positively sublime when one can go 2 hours like this
I tell you this from experience

>>41136347
Yeah I guess it seems pretty good but I may be sort of egoistic about it. You can go 2 hours with no thoughts? I mean literally no thoughts come up at all, just a steady mind

>>41136329
>Well I do remember how I did it, I would smash any thought that appears with the Om syllable until they stopped appearing
this is more or less what I mentioned about replacing one habit with another
but its still a thoughtform
best when one can do this with pure awareness

>>41136400
Yeah it was immature but it worked desu. I don't recommend it, learn an actual refined practice

>>41136395
>You can go 2 hours with no thoughts? I mean literally no thoughts come up at all, just a steady mind
this too is a matter of conditioning
I've conditioned myself to this extent many times over, but its also a fact that if your practice falters for any number of reasons, they will return
but its how I came to discover that sense activity both uses energy as well as exacerbates the conscious-subconscious energy balance
normally, random thoughts are this equalizing mechanism
same as an animal randomly wagging its tail, since they do not have a ruminating mind, they just have a different mechanism to balance that out
but sense activity just contributes to this energy remainder, which once it hits a threshold then has the ability to jump into higher brain centers where it produces a random thought
focus of awareness somewhat resolves this discrepancy, but in order for it to be complete, the potentials that contribute towards it must also be attenuated

>>41136413
>Yeah it was immature but it worked desu. I don't recommend it, learn an actual refined practice
of course, it was just worth noting how a habit can be replaced with another
with enough practice, one can detect the precursors of energy perturbation in the midbrain that precede the emergence of a random thought and destroy it before it manifests

>>41136423
You should work on honing your thoughts so you don't use words like:

>Energy
>Exacerbates
>Conscious-subconscious
>Energy balance
>Equalizing mechanism
>Ruminating
>Energy remainder
>Focus of awareness
>Discrepancy
>Potentials
>Attenuated

None of these words are Orthodox and they have no meaning to anyone else. My guess is you haven't attained anatta yet.

>4d0gy

>>41136459
>you cant use modern words to describe spiritual cultivation
lol, lmao even
>None of these words are Orthodox
as if this matters
>and they have no meaning to anyone else
they most certainly have meaning, they are all part of the lexicon of language, you can go look them up in the dictionary if you dont know what these words mean
>My guess is
out of left field, entirely erroneous, devoid of thought or insight
try harder next time, grasshoppa

>>41136495
>Try harder
That's you

>>41136495
Lol imagine going up to the Buddha and saying, "My energy exacerbates the energy-balance." You sound so retarded

>>41136515
>"My energy exacerbates the energy-balance."
imagine having this as a takeaway from what I've written
the entire reason it is taught to restrain the senses is because of these neurological potentials and what takes place because they have arisen
I wouldnt have anything to say to a buddha except to smile and nod
orthodox, lmao...you're telling me I cant describe my own experiences in the modern language I grew up with
both my parents and a few of my aunts and uncles have superlative vocabularies and I played a lot of scrabble growing up
if you're that shallow that you have a difficult time reading the classics couched in modern language, you can always go fuck off somewhere else if you dont want to try understanding a different refraction of light from the gem, my guy

>>41136556
Ok at first I gave you advice but now I'll just say: SCHIZOBABEL. One essence of Buddhism is that words are empty so why are you going out of your way to use superlative vocabulary? You're also clearly attached to your schizo vocabulary because you're getting mad about GOOD SOLID ADVICE

>>41136556
Last try

>Again, Mahamati, what is meant by the emptiness in its highest sense of ultimate reality realizable by noble wisdom? It is that in the attainment of
an inner realization by means of noble wisdom there is no trace of habit-energy generated by all the erroneous conceptions [of beginningless
past]. Thus one speaks of the highest emptiness of ultimate reality
realizable by noble wisdom.

You say your parents talk like this as if they have noble wisdom, but emptiness is the realization of noble Wisdom. (Lankavatara Sutra).

I'm not sure why you dispute with the Words of the Buddha
>I don't care if it's heterodox
Well we should see the Orthodox in the heterodox (Vimalakirti Sutra), but your words are so egoistic and heterodox that I am CERTAIN they will lead you only back to the false habit energy of beginningless past.

Yet the Beginningless is the highest Truth (Diamond Sutra).

>>41136304
>many times the response to this post is "yeah that's pretty much what I meant" but when you boil it down, there is great benefit in this distinction
That's pretty much what I meant, but the inner need to form a distinction is a subtle form of resistance.

>>41131482
This makes a lot of intuitive sense to me

Is praying the rosary a good daily meditative practice?

>>41136672
>you're getting mad about GOOD SOLID ADVICE
classic projection
>>41136772
classic inability to see where my teachings are most certainly in accord with the things you're referencing
I dont know if you're just dumb or just a strict fundamentalist dogmatist that's simply unable to accept any assemblages of words aside from the suttas
but your teachers would shake their heads at your behavior
if indeed you have any direct ones

>>41137257
>the inner need to form a distinction is a subtle form of resistance.
words are abstractions
the very reason that I'll use certain words and discourage others is simply to make sure the core properties are properly focused upon
"just watching thoughts go by" is one of those phrases that makes people think its ok to just let 'em fly and not strictly return the focus of awareness to the practice being undertaken the instant they are detected.
its all about training the habit energy and the quickest method to destroy a habit you want to get rid of
I dont want to make it seem like I'm being a dick about it, its just clarification for the reader

>>41134620
>>41132748
I mean, I'm not a Buddhist. I practice meditation in which I observe my thoughts but not redirect them. I'm not interested in reaching a state where I don't get random thoughts even outside of meditation; I just want to have more clarity and shorten the effect of negative emotions.

>>41130844
>keep trying until it works ?
in a way this is kind of right, except it's the trying that's preventing it from "working". another way to understand it is that no matter how you're meditating, you're meditating in the right way

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Your "focus" is you controlling your attention span. An attention span isn't something we can work out like a bicep. The more we control our awareness throughout the day, the better we are at it. The more we let it run free (scrolling, daydreaming, etc) the better it gets at running free.

Once you can concentrate (control your attention span), prolonged states of concentration lead to a state of 'Observation'. A state where you can objectively watch thoughts/things without being emotionally attached. (For example, watching a movie and your awareness being absorbed in the plot/characters compared to your awareness realizing your watching a movie.)

Once you practice prolonged states of concentration long enough to maintain an Observant state, you can direct your awareness inwards and begin to do meditation.

We're not taught how to concentrate, so we struggle to do it. Then the attention economy happened and corp's fought to control our attention bc it benefits them. This conversation doesn't happen online, as people who learn this naturally cut out social media/Google and their algorithms filter comments like mine.

Everything I just said comes from Dandapani's app and his course on Concentration. It's a foundational fundamental to anything spiritual, or just having a good life.

TL;DR Your focus (attention span) is something you have to practice throughout the day, and it is a necessary prerequisite for meditation.

>>41130844
Videos on Meditation and being present:

https://youtu.be/yfaOs9JhAxk
https://youtu.be/Q1RfqgmbHCQ

>>41130844
>>41131482
>>41136297
>>41136309
Hi,

I am trying to attain Liberation. A few years ago I went about and tried to read a lot of stuff about Hinduism and Buddhism to teach myself about its esoteric significance and thus find a proper method on how to achieve my goal, but I quickly learned that, at least according to some spiritual authorities, intellectual knowledge is not the correct path.

I then changed course and tried to learn to meditate. I have read about many methods so when I do it I try to focus on my breathing and the >I< that triggers it, but I am not sure how I can know if I am doing it correctly. I am able to extinguish my front door thoughts but I'm usually only able to do this for about 30 seconds, and in rare occasions a few minutes but I don't find myself having any unusual sensations. Attempting to meditate requires a lot of willpower on my part. I often do this while I run or when I'm sitting quietly in my chair, or when I look at the sky.

I try to fill my mind with thoughts of compassion, the ineffability of the all and the illusory nation of perception. I do not have access to spiritual teachers because I live in a rural town.

Please help.

>>41140210
Midwest US?

>>41140247
Close. Palermo, Sicily

>>41140247
No, I'm in TX

>>41130844
Absolutely not. You let the thoughts run and go as they come. Restrain the monkey and it will fight back

>>41130844
The ability to meditate. It. Comes and goes. Desire to desire intimacy with God your creator and He will bring you back to Him in due time.

>>41138691
>I practice meditation in which I observe my thoughts but not redirect them.
what's meant by observing thoughts, or redirecting thoughts
its really a matter of is the thought being engaged with and furthered,
a matter of ceasing or continuing
if anything's redirected its the awareness, back to the practice and away from daydreaming
>I'm not interested in reaching a state where I don't get random thoughts even outside of meditation; I just want to have more clarity and shorten the effect of negative emotions.
rest assured, it takes quite an effort to achieve that outside of meditation
mainly both rigorous practice as well as efforts to habituate it with several meditative sessions per day
ironically its the same root principle that governs this
same angle on habit energies and such

>>41139727
good post

>>41136297
the more still you are the less you breath, there is a point where you are so balanced, still and concetrated you cease to breath.

>>41142335
>the more still you are the less you breath, there is a point where you are so balanced, still and concetrated you cease to breath.
imo this is a deviation from practice
the base needs are energetic and not chemical, so when the energy is well balanced, this "can spontaneously arise" but the problem is that hypoxia isnt too far off
this burns off the extra energy until imbalance is there again and the need to breathe arises
the only reason this takes place really is because anapanasati hasnt been fully mastered and the body forgets
properly, the breath is habituated thoroughly enough that the motions continue by subconscious action
when the breath is quiet enough, its as quiet as a breath hold, just without the impending hypoxia
"the less you breathe" is more like "the body is able to support longer and longer breaths"
but this too is a matter of built up energy
burn off what's built and you never break that glass ceiling

>>41140417
>Absolutely not. You let the thoughts run and go as they come. Restrain the monkey and it will fight back
this basically translates to
>let the monkey win

>>41130844
The Nirvana they speak about is feeling in unconscious. You meditate until you are unconscious. Keeping focus during meditation only brought me once a joy beyond cosmic I can’t replicate results. No matter how hard I try. Maybe the key lies in forgetfulness

>>41142899
>Keeping focus during meditation only brought me once a joy beyond cosmic I can’t replicate results
all we can do is attempt to arrange the conditions properly
beyond that you basically dont have control over what manifests
all this means is that you have not arranged conditions properly, maybe you did enough once
but as this endeavor requires consistent effort, that's the most obvious target for failings

>>41140210
>intellectual knowledge is not the correct path.
this is correct, no amount of intellectual knowledge will give one spiritual advancement
>I am not sure how I can know if I am doing it correctly
this is where I have devised the discovery method of using a bath to listen in a setting where the perceived sound volume of the breath is very much heightened
lay back in the bath, let the water against your eardrums, learn what motions produce silent breath
>I'm usually only able to do this for about 30 seconds, and in rare occasions a few minutes
this is because random thoughts are generated by neurological potentials generated by sense activity
focus all you want, so long as the sense activity is there, these potentials will build up until they reach a threshold value where they can jump into higher brain centers to produce a thought.
the focus of awareness has great value here but without streamlining the senses into a very low state, the midbrain's energy remainder from the sense potentials simply build up until they cant be contained any longer
this is why we refine our breath diligently

>>41138603
You don't even know what projection is, so I absolutely know you are using words wrong, and my point is you are ATTACHED to your lexicon, when words simply point at Truth. If I ask you what Truth you were pointing to you'd say neuroscience. Go back to r3ddit. Words are empty and outside the Sutras or koans distract from Truth. This is fundamental

>>41138691
Well if you cultivate prajna, on the assumption that the voices you hear are sentient beings that you don't identify with as the ego, you can destroy them using Prajna. It's not a sin as they go to Nirvana/are liberated when you do that. This teaching comes from the Platform Sutra (Chan/Zen) and is very hard to encounter...

>>41139727
This is the heresy I'm trying to root out. Cultivate "Awareness" of the senses and become an observer. That's attachment to the skandhas and ego. Once you are attached to the ego you can begin to meditate (on the foundation of ego). Pretty sure Satan wrote that. Then you said it's from an app. I know because I'm cultivating omniscience

>>41131482
Whoa, great post!

>>41140210
Ok you're doing well so stop worrying so much. First of all you realized that going straight into esoteric stuff was over intellectualizing the teaching, when the point is liberation. So you have a good foundation in the Dharma. I'm sure there are Buddhas who want to teach you.

You say you are trying. This is a difficult teaching but don't try. Just sit. It helps before you sit to have a foundation in some Sutra(s).

Since you are aiming at compassion and emptiness, I recommend the Diamond Sutra, which I think you are ready for.

>>41142976
>If I ask you what Truth you were pointing to you'd say neuroscience
>no I'm not projecting
>here let me project some more
hahahaha, now that's funny
>anything but the suttas distract from truth
it would have been easier for you to just admit you're not only a fundamentalist, but a complete dick about it and havent even understood the words you're attacking, you just know they arent the exact words in the sutta so you cling to the forms you're used to and attack away
>this is my last attempt
>well no now THIS is my last attempt
>unless of course I want to look at my chapped ass in the mirror and go on the attack again, then THAT will be my last attempt
sad, many cases
you've failed, you may leave the thread now

>>41143091
>There is no ignorance and no end to ignorance

>>41142898
Yes, let the monkey win. It will eventually get bored/tired and sit back down with you.

>>41143394
until it decides to get back up again after a short time
that's not winning

>>41131482
>the thing is, you are now filled with "spirits" (mental creatures, thought forms). they are subconscious automatons, randomly repeating actions, lifeforms of their own.
>some are of the form of eggregores - culturally shared ideas. some are memes. some are just too weird to classify.
"the brain builds its neural networks based upon habit and experience"
dr austin, zen and the brain

I haven't read the thread so maybe someone already said what I'm going to say, but what you need to understand is that whatever state you're in is temporary. Sometimes meditation will be good and easy and you'll feel like a master monk, and then you'll have periods in which you can't focus for shit. Don't think it's a personal failure of yourself or a sign of lack of mastery or whatever, just see it as what it is: a temporary happenstance.

You just keep meditating and be at peace with your meditation whether its poor quality and you spend the whole time daydreaming or good quality and you spend the whole time very focused. Be ready to accept both while always still trying to do your best, of course.

>>41130844
meditation is a means of cultivating awareness, not stillness

>>41138624
Methods are also abstractions nigga
Your method is equivalent to Starting Strength workout on /fit/, there's other workouts out there that work better for different individual circumstances

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>>41148974
>you cant just start out by returning to practice when you have random thoughts
>you cant just work at refining your breath
>you cant just pay more attention
>you cant just directly cultivate fundamental properties of cultivation

>brute force thing
It is yes but not only.
Is your spine straight when you meditate? Or you slouch and/or use back support?