If you knew that when your child was born he would be subjected to a lifetime of unending torture would you have that child?No right?So if God is a loving father and Hell exists, why would he even let us be conceived in the first place?
very valid questions, mr. frog
>>41170223The free will God gave us implies a capacity to choose between good and evil (conceptually there's no such thing as free will if we can only choose between good and good or between evil and evil) and there's consequences to both.God desires to share his goodness with those who choose Him, but this would be impossible if we were just robots who have no choice, thus in order for Him to do this and reward us in the form of blessings and eternal life in His presence, the torment of his enemies must be on the table also. Death and hell are a side effect of true free will.
>>41170223>No right?Stopped reading
Imagine a father who stands by idly while a strange man (Satan) lures his children into a van (eternal damnation) with candy (sin). Everyone would agree he's a shitty father.
>no right? Wrong Most people would rather be alive even in those circumstances
>>41170371God shed His own blood on the cross precisely to deliver us from that end. I'd say that's the best Father ever. I deserve hell more than anybody else who ever lived, yet thanks to the Lord Jesus Christ I won't be having a second of it. Bless His Holy name.
>>41170402He would also let you suffer in agony forever.
>>41170223not my problem
>>41170475Only if that's what I chose. He won't force anybody into heaven (or into hell for that matter).
>>41170487Going back to the stranger with candy analogy, that's like a shitty father saying, "Well I didn't save him because he WANTED to get in the van!"
>>41170493Except it doesn't work because the child has no knowledge of good or evil like an adult does and has to be protected.
>>41170223None of this is true though.1. God doesn't know what you will do before you choose to do it, since the decision isn't created yet. He creates everyone expecting them to choose the Good Path, and he helps them forever.2. Hell exists forever but a person who goes there stays for an "indeterminate" time. One must emphasize Hell's eternity to warn people that they can always go there, independent of how good things are at any given time.3. Lying about God and accusing him is the main feature of Satanism. This is perhaps a self fulfilling prophecy: as God is accused unjustly the sinner predisposes themselves to sinning more, and with sinning they know punishment will happen, which can make them bitter and resentful and prone to blaming to God again. So it's important to start being fair with God.
>>41170502The gap in knowledge between us and God is infinite, which is far far greater than the gap between an adult and a child.
>>41170568The statement is correct, but I fail to see exactly how it relates to what I stated.
>>41170223Better yet, why can't God just forgive everyone instead of just the people who guess the right religion despite a complete lack of evidence?
>>41170581Humans are children compared to God, or Satan for that matter. In fact, we're even less than children, we're like termites. If we actually had the capacity to understand good and evil, there would not be so much discord in this world.
>>41170536My brother in Christ, the teaching eternal hell is a demonic disciple:from https://www.askelm.com/essentials/ess022a.htm> The wages of sin that all of us humans deserve is death, and that is what Christ did for us on the tree of crucifixion. He died for us! Remember (and never forget): The wages of sin is NOT to be in hellfire forever, NOR is it to be dead forever. Believe the Scriptures, NOT the false teachings of church leaders or theologians. Preachers and priests who teach eternal hellfire are either liars or ignorant about the Scriptures.
>>41170637God gave us a mind, a conscience, instincts, common sense, the bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. If you as an adult can't discern good and evil from all that, you're literally retarded.God tells us what we can handle and it suffices Him that you follow His light.
>>41170223Ribbit
>>41170704Diffetent anon here, but...“And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” (Luke 16:23-24)“And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mark 9:47-48)“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Revelation of John 14:10-11)“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.” (Revelation of John 19:20)“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation of John 20:10)
>>41170736First step is to drop protestant modified Bibles and to look for original scripture, to look for the translations from Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, to use your head and to love God, who is fair
>>41170398Idk man, if the pain is bad enough most would choose death
>>41170728Everyone would choose to go to heaven rather than go to hell. If they end up in hell, it's because they failed God's test in some way. Since no one would want to fail God's test, if they failed then the test must have been beyond their capacity. A loving Creator would not give his children a test he knew they would fail and then punish them for all eternity for failing.
>>41170797>if they failed then the test must have been beyond their capacityFalse. If you desire something it doesn't mean you will choose it. If you are tired at night and want to rest it doesn't mean you will stop doodling around and rest in bed.
>>41170808>If you are tired at night and want to rest it doesn't mean you will stop doodling around and rest in bed.False. You don't want rest, you want to doodle.
>>41170822You choose to believe this, and from it the retarded conclusions follow. How can I stop you from believing the most wild shit?
>>41170223You aren't God. It is futile to try to out reason him.
>>41170749The original scriptures either no longer exist or remain to be discovered. All we have is copies of copies and (for the english speaker) the kjv itself which God used to preserve the intended readings.
>>41170300I'll elaborate OP's point. If you had a son who you gave the ability to make spontaneous choices, but you could see what choices he was going to make in life, would he be making choices at all?
>>41170834Oh, here we go. You can't make your reasoning work, so you start with the name calling.
>>41170844Many of the old scriptures literally exist, as in physically exist
>>41170300>muh free willAlways the same cope with you people. Free Will is just a phrase that sounds nice to emotionally driven retards, it doesn't justify torturing people for all eternity.
>>41170797That's your assumption. Some people understand the message perfectly but have a thing about them that cannot stand God.
>>41170853Correct, but old not the same as proven original.
>>41170849There is no name calling, you can be smart or at least an average 100 IQ and at any point choose to believe retarded axioms. The belief is statement, not necessarily you, you could be lying to me or yourself, momentarily confused etc
>>41170845While he's a child under my roof, it's my way or the highway, but as an adult, that's his life.
>>41170860I find that hard to believe. I think most people have an urge to be close to God and do his will. My evidence for that is the fact that pretty much every single human society has some kind of religious system. The problem is that God provides little guidance so people come to different conclusions about how to achieve closeness to God.
>>41170845That doesn't make sense. Just because you can see an end to all of his choices doesn't mean he isn't the one making them. The Lord instilled all of us with free will. Free will makes it impossible for him to predetermine exactly what we are going to do but precisely what will happen if we decide what we are going to do. End of the day, you're basically given two choices. Do you choose God or do you not? Everything else is filler and absolutely has no baring on anything. What you do today means absolutely nothing in the span of 1,000,000 years. However, your choice of being with him or being without him matters to you regardless of any outside factors or determinations. That's just simple reason.
>>41170864There is no proving an original, you are delirious
>>41170845If you had a son would you abandon him before birth, not do anything to even show him you exist and still expect him to do what you want him to?
>>41170916Every breath you take is a gift. The Lord has always been with you, I implore you to seek Jesus Christ, he loves you perfectly and he wants nothing more than to know you and for you to be with him.
>>41170923I used to be a Christian but God never answered my prayers even just for a sign he was real, he isn't there.
>>41170928Time to go back
>>41170902>That doesn't make sense. Just because you can see an end to all of his choices doesn't mean he isn't the one making them. Yeah if you want to be technical, but by observing the entire life history/future of a being that cannot see outside its own little narrow present-bound perspective, you gotta acknowledge that it's there. I can look at the past right now, or an illusion of it, and see a past I cannot change. I can't go back and eat better, work out, make an effort to be more sociable, stay off vidya or the internet, start mewing or nasal breathing, nor refuse weed. God saw all of this. He is observing me today and back then at the same time, he's also observing a future I don't know about yet.
>>41170928Matthew 4:7.He is there, he has always been there. There have been many times tragedy could have befallen you and you have been saved. This time of tribulation is meant to cause conviction in you. Suffering brings you closer to the Lord and transforms you into something greater. I tell you, Jesus Christ is the life and the way friend.
>>41170900>I find that hard to believe.I have spoken to many people like that. You mention Jesus and it's like a thousand f's and mf's flying off the handle for 5 minutes straight.>I think most people have an urge to be close to God and do his will.Most people want a closeness to the gods they made up in their own minds, which's completely different. Truth is most people don't want anything to do with the real Jesus, and the bible testifies of this:“¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)>My evidence for that is the fact that pretty much every single human society has some kind of religious system. The problem is that God provides little guidance so people come to different conclusions about how to achieve closeness to God.66 books isn't exactly "little guidance" as far as I'm concerned. Anything you need is there, and salvation itself can be effectively covered with barely a handful of verses.
>>41170880It's not retarded. Read Epictetus.>"Cannot a man, then, think that something is profitable to him, and yet not choose it?" He cannot.https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epictetus,_the_Discourses_as_reported_by_Arrian,_the_Manual,_and_Fragments/Book_1/Chapter_28
>>41170910Correct. No original, no valid claim of originality.
>>41170939Within time God only sees the future as potentials. Only present states receive a true or false value, potentials receive dynamic percentage attributions (e.g. 56%, 89%) relative to total potential likelihood.
>>41170956>Truth is most people don't want anything to do with the real JesusBecause they know nothing about the real Jesus. You're expecting them to just uncritically accept someone's secondhand account of his deeds.
Because he didn't. The J*ws just hated the competition against their loli goddess Aten/Ishtar so they conspired against Sol and his companion.Pic related is Atenism, which influenced Judaism, and it was in competition against the established Amon-Ra cult of Egypt whom the J*ws hated.
>>41171055That's literally the opposite of what the bible tells us to do:“The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.” (Proverbs 14:15)“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Acts 17:11)
>>41171075Jesus wrote nothing, so there are only secondhand accounts. You have to take it on faith that those accounts were genuine and not simply written to conform to earlier scriptures.
>>41171100You have to trust that the very same God who prophesied all those things that came to pass exactly when and how they were supposed to, is also giving you the truth of salvation in his preserved word. Not a hard thing if you're a reasonable person.Also Jesus did write things, but we're not told exactly what:“This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.” (John 8:6)
>>41171138It is hard when there are 10,000 other wannabe cult leaders telling you that their version is the true word.
>>41171158Doesn't matter, specially when you'll only ever hear about 2 or 3 of them in your lifetime. Test and try what you got handed and do your diligence to discern it. If you really want the truth, God will make sure you get it one way or another.
>>41170223>Hurr durr your sky daddy is fake and you're butthurt about it!We get it. Despite your climbing age, you're still uppity because mommy and daddy made you go to church on Easter a couple times as a child.Do you have to make it our problem?
>>41170300Free will doesn't exist and it wouldn't be a desirable thing either.
>>41170223I've said this before and I can't stress this enough that in a perfect world every day would be an episode of Teletubbies, which is more terrifying than you think. Would waking up every day in a Teletubbies episode be a fate worse than death to you? No more mystery, no more action, no more horror, Teletubbies is the only genre in a pefect world. Surely the variety of cinema is what gives it life no?
>>41173345Why would an episode of Teletubbies be the "perfect world"? I'd rather just do drugs all day without any negative side effects
>>41173345People really hear "perfect world" and immediately think of something that by their own admission hardly anyone would want. This is a failure to understand the meanings of words.
>>41173778It's also whacky because the same people often believe in eternity in heaven, so what exactly do they think that's going to be like? Would they prefer hell?
>>41170402What about the sentinelese Islanders? Do they go to hell id they never heard the good word? Is that why Christians are so intent on sending missionaries to save all the third world brown people?
>>41173778Wouldn't a perfect world be impossible because of the varying nature of people's desires? No two people envision the same version of a perfect world, so the concept thereof is a paradox within itself because there can't be a perfect world without interfering with someone else's defintion of it. Do you believe it possible for there to be a perfect world that everyone could agree on? What if I find enjoyment in overcoming pain and hardship?
>>41170223Christianity is not the truth of reality.If it were, then reality would be fundamentally evil to the core and the most noble thing we could do would be soul oblivion to refuse to play the Christian God's diabolic game.The Most Moral Cosmology is Divine Solipsism. Where God keeps awareness. Only God is self-aware. All worlds are hylic dream filled. For God's amusement. Stories, adventure, and weighty judgment roleplays abounding because the worlds are hylic. And Only God is self-aware.
>>41174200P.SI am God btw.
>>41173667A world where no one can be hurt and there is eternal happiness would be similar to an episode of Teletubbies because nothing bad happens, everyone is in a state of eternal happiness and the same episodic formula repeats itself in nature. As far as I'm aware the common definition of a "perfect world" is one where there is no suffering and no one can be hurt and perhaps not literally or exactly but in nature in a "perfect world" every day would be an episode of Teletubbies.
>>41174219I consider the perfect world to be simply like a NWN RP Server. You go raid. You have adventure and drama. But you always respawn back in bed. In your cozy home.Quite simple.
>>41170223If you knew that your paranormal board would be ruined by a flood of retard spam from R/atheism what kind of lifetime of torture would you subject the reddit assholes to?
>>41174233Perhaps this may be the words of an idealist but if suffering in society is in part cause by a gap of wealth between the working class and the rich is it possible the need for a perfect world could be alleviated by closing that gap of wealth?
>>41170223When my daughter wanted to go rollerskating I told her its really hard and painful but alot of fun once you get it. She still wanted to go. So I took her to the roller rink and skated alongside her holding her hands. And she kept falling on her ass and when she did she'd pull me down with her but I kept telling her "get back up. You can do this" and she wanted to give up and kept saying "I cant do this. Daddy i dont want to rollerskate" and I kept saying "no we're doing this together get back up". And eventually by the end of the night she figured out how to skate without falling, and she did 5 laps and was really proud of herself. Now she loves rollerskating.
>>41174219Sounds cool. I'd snort fat fucking lines of purple teletubby coke with Laa-Laa and Dipsy.
>>41174281Funny you say this because I am not an atheist. I’ve interacted with demons / djinn before and believe in God, I just don’t think he is all good.
>>41170300Can any high level mystics here chime in on the nature of hell? My biggest thing if Judgement exists for us after this, is God/the judge a cunt or do you get a pass for being a mediocre-tier good person. Like if you start to get older and realize you were legitimately an asshole and felt bad about it, is that almost good enough? Stuff like that.
>>41173345For me the perfect world would just be constant sex, eating, and pleasureable activities. I know religious folk and the spiritual don't like to hear it, but that is my truth.
>>41170300>Create something>Give it a choice>If it acts like you its good>if it doesnt axt like you its bad>reward the good, condemn the badBy the abyss this is stupid as shit.So there's actually no point in free will because the point is to forfeit your free will to something else. If you exercise your freedom and dont chose the result it wants you just get kicked for all eternity. Thats not a choice, thats illusion of choice.There's no point to the human experiment if God is real as Christians describe it. Since every road leads ultimately to the good or bad end only on a basis of whether or not they "follow the rules." In such a design there is no point of free will existing. Better plan:Just have people exist and do existence things for the sake of existing, refining off of what energies are familiar and resonant. Allowing the seed to grow on its own, rather than culling the flowers you don't like simply because they're the wrong color in your eyes.What a waste.
>>41170223Logic from a moron is just idiocy.I don't know things but I know this... grow up first.
>>41173345Bro, do all of the videogames you play feature the horrors of this world in detail?Come on. Go look at a NWN RP server, they already got the drama without horror thing figured out.You're like swinging all the way to the other end of the spectrum to try and make a point.
>>41176046Yeah, Heaven is like that. Can go to a salon and get changed into any form you wish.Bunch of sex in Heaven.No heightism either because you can just go to the salon and grow your height.
>>41170402>God shed His own blood on the cross precisely to deliver us from that end.What about the people who lived before that?
>>41176676They were judged according to their works. If they followed the light God gave them, God had mercy on them and sent them to a place of rest known as Paradise (not the same as Heaven) when they passed. If they didn't, they went straight to hell.
>>41176719>>41176719>They were judged according to their works.>If they followed the light God gave them,>God had mercy on themSo He already had a system that worked, why change it?
>>41176789Because God wanted to grant mercy to the wicked as well.
>>41170223You are God, simple asYou are also your children, simple asHe is not subjecting You or your hypothetical offspring to anything that he/you/they isn't aware of before entering into Life
>>41176812>>>They were judged according to their works. If they followed the light God gave them, God had mercy on them>>So He already had a system that worked, why change it?>Because God wanted to grant mercy to the wicked as well.Okay, so He can be merciful if someone has sinned a little, but not if they have sinned a lot, is that it?
Simple logic experiments like op disprove abrahamic jew cults lolComplete inversion of reality where the created is more responsible than the creatorAlso the deranged biblical god even outright says salvation is something he gives on a whim not something a human can choose
>>41170402>I deserve hell more than anybody else who ever lived, yet thanks to the Lord Jesus Christ I won't be having a second of it. Have you tried not being a piece of shit instead? I know it's really really hard, but then you wouldn't have to use a revolutionary carpenter nailed to a 2×4 as an excuse.
>>41170402>I deserve hell more than anybody else who ever livedThat would be a remarkable accomplishment for a random anon if true.
>>41176069>>Make your own strawman of God>>Defeat said strawman>>Tip your fedora and enjoy your genius with great success.Read the book of John and then try to understand what Jesus is telling you before trying to make your own fiction and dooming yourself to hell because you CHOSE to walk away from God and you CHOSE to spit on his face when he offered you salvation from the pit of sin that you dug up yourself.I hope you follow this advice. God bless.
>>41174200Right. There's a lot of truths to this, and reality is fundamentally evil. One must commit evil acts to survive here. I learned this when I decided to stop fishing. I had caught a tilapia, what people used to call a dumbass fish that can't feel pain. It was writhing on the hook and shitting itself. I looked it up and there was a study done which undeniably proved that fish feel pain, not dissimilar to how we feel it either. It's not a stress response, or a "get away response" or muscle spasms, they feel agony.After that I couldn't unsee the signs of pain in hooked fish.Humans gotta eat, as every other animal on earth does. Some of the most gruesome hellscape shit I've ever seen has come from our need to eat among other things, and if some higher being did this shit to us we'd see them as demons.It happens because of survival.If a fisherman felt bad for the fish, or a farmer felt bad for a cow or a horse, we'd be extinct. Thus the requirements for the survival of the species is to commit acts of evil on these creatures, and exist in a constant state of denial about their experience.Likewise the elites who want people to be free give up their own power in exchange, the businessman with a conscience is a bad businessman, so on. tl;dr good is a passing stranger in a world which follows zero sum logic. If good didn't constantly assert itself, the natural order would fall back into evil.
>>41170320lmao this guy knows
>>41173801someone on here mentioned before that there’s a conspiracy revelation won’t kick off until everyone(!) on Earth has heard the Gospel and reacted to it
>>41173345A perfect world is subject to the will of the partaker, that is, it varies from person to person. There is no such thing as a person being created in a perfect world, a person would have to create a world that is perfect for them, at which point they are given what title?
>>41177115It's not about the amount but rather the manner:“And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.” (Acts 13:39)
>>41177508>It's not about the amount but rather the mannerRight. Moses famously killed a man, as it will be recalled. Presumably this sin was forgiven? By an act of mercy?
>>41177684>Right. Moses famously killed a man, as it will be recalled.>Presumably this sin was forgiven? By an act of mercy?Killing: The taking of a life.Murder: The deliberate killing of a person God did not authorize you to kill.Moses did not sin in killing the egyptian, as he was defending one of his people.
>>41170845obviouslyi know my retard brother is going to get high whenever he can and only go to the shops when he's drunkhe was doing that before i was born
>>41170223The problem with your logic is that most people don't see life as a torture. They are glad that God gave them life and made them what they are, slaves. Thy are happy. And they will happyly bring forth children into this world because in their minds that's what they are supposed to do. They are supposed to form a family and stuff like that. But I agree with you and that's why I will never have children. Because they will suffer like I do and I don't want that, I don't want my children to suffer. If I can't give them paradise then it is best to not have children. God is evil for putting us in this cursed land. If God was good He would not have created us or we woud be automatons without a soul. But if you have a soul and you are under God then that means you are a slave and not free and you are here to work, to be explored, they will extract the juice of your soul in order to make money. They use our life energy in order to make money. It's all a bug deception. It's witchcraft
>>41170371Yes. I agree with that. If you are a father and you know there's a perv around the block and you willingy allow the perv to harm your child then without the shadow of a doubt, you are a shitty father. No good father who knows a perv is about to fuck his child will stand still and not do anything and after your child is raped you punish the child for being naive and being raped. And remember that God made us fail on purpose in order for us to not brag before Him. THis is written in the bible so the crhsitians are without excuse when Paul or Peter said that it was convenient that everyone sinned so fuck this. It's all BS. God is not nice. God doesn't have our best interests in His mind. Christians lie big time. They are parrots.>>41170398You don't know that. Nobody here asked to be here and taking your own life creates pain not only for you before dying, but for the people who love you. So it's not fair for us to kill ourselves like that. And the fact that most people don't kill themselve because they don't want to feel the pain of sufocating or blowing their brains out, only goes to show that if we had a choice of being here or not being here, of not feeling more pain or keep on feeling more pain only a masochist would want more pain. We run from pain. Most people have a shitty life. They are only here to be explored and consumed by the systems which the so called "free men" before us have created. But you are right. Most people prefer to be slaves in Heaven than burn in Hell for daring to question the statu quo or trying to free themselves.
