The Major Arcana is my favorite system because it is the most complete and accessible one that I've found. The Kabbalah seems too based in autistic geometry, but that doesn't mean it is worse or bad; it is simply less accessible for an outsider.I know the Kabbalah is just based on older sacred tree models, which I know the Assyrians and the Druids practiced. These are the same trees used in the Bible during the Eden story.The Eden story is at least related to the Sumerian/Babylonian story of creation and of Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh pursues the plant of immortality, whereas the fruit in Eden is said to turn men into gods (the classic Genesis 3:22). They're basically saying the same thing, but that doesn't mean the esoteric system from then to now hasn't changed whatsoever.I'm also aware of eastern systems that use the body as the central symbol, including Hindu chakras and Chinese meridian points. I have mixed feelings on this because while there is some useful medical knowledge to be derived from them, they mix subjects so much that you never know when you're talking about something mental or something physical. Maybe this was the goal of their system, but that's not really how I like to go about it because it can't be integrated into newer knowledge so easily.Can anyone shed some light on the timeline from as far back in ancient history as possible to the present? I'm happy to read any books you suggest as well. I've read a good number but admittedly I skip over some that seem to be just saying the same thing that I've already read (but maybe I am missing something important).I asked ChatGPT about this, and it suggested the first esoteric systems were based on astronomical measurements of time and geometry, leading to the first pantheons. This does make some sense. I can see how people look for synchronicity in everything, so they derived psychological systems from external measurements of stars/planets/suns. However, it's not very satisfying to assume this.
>estoricShit. I need coffee.
>>41870565>The Major ArcanaI'm also going to briefly summarize my understanding of this to set the stage for further conversation.Maybe at a base level, you don't see the connections between these symbols. However, it's fairly clear to me that they come in a sequence, and that this sequence has meaning. I think you can pull out algebraic components that make the sequence totally formulaic in a hermetic sense. The major arcana are thus hermetic symbols (in my opinion).That being said, I think it's wrong to assume that people go through one stage at a time. Many people think this way. It's true that you may identify most with one symbol at a time, but I think the symbols refer to aspects of the self that are always extant. They may not be literal aspects of the self, but instead abstract principles that conflict with one another. In the latter case, it would be tautological that at any point in time, you should technically have an opinion or stance on every one of these principles, meaning that they are always interacting in your system at all times. The consequence of going from a sequence perspective to a permanent always-on perspective is that the latter describes flow, and this means the goal is not to get somewhere (like the end of the sequence) but to flow better. This helps explain the duality of the tree of life vs the tree of death, because essentially the principle of life is flow, and the opposition is that which blocks flow at any of the steps. We can abstract from this that in order to control a person, or society as a whole, you simply block flow at all of the major points in the esoteric system that seems to best represent the people.I hesitated to say "the esoteric system that is most accurate" because I also wonder to what extent we have confirmation bias or if esoteric systems vary by culture or race. Maybe a system is only valid once we accept it and live by it, even if not fully aware of it.
>>41870581Final point before I take a break and wait for some commenters...I also find the numerology in the kabbalah and potentially the Major Arcana to be too much to ignore. Both systems give you about 22 symbols or 22 paths which just happen to be the same number of symbols in script used by ancient Phoenicians, Egyptians, and then Greeks and the rest of European languages.The origin of language and symbolism are tied closely together. We have "In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God" right at the start of John. We have the gnostic view that the monad (which may be comparable to the Logos) creates the demiurge to rule in its stead. We have cave paintings and figurines appearing in archaeology as humans transition to more complex ways of life. It's clear that consciousness emerges with language, and consciousness itself is viewed by some to be the fabric of the universe. I don't really like taking relative perspectives and pretending they are absolute, but I can appreciate the metaphor.So, to my point: we could also look at the Major Arcana as a profound, recognizable, and meaningful set of symbols that could form the basis for pictoral/hieroglyphic writing that precedes alphabets, and it is essentially the role of esoteric systems to create these alphabets. The kabbalistic system (again, not saying Jews invented it, but I refer to the tree of life as best known through the kabbalah) adds geometry to these alphabets, which seemingly is even more advanced in fact.This brings me to the Oera Linda book as an explicit demonstration of how letters are constructed from geometry. You could do the same thing with the "paths" in the kabbalah.
>>41870620It may also be true that every esoteric system, insofar as it is about creating language, also requires a primary core set of literature that uses it. This is your Rosetta stone between semantics and grammar. Perhaps books like the Bible and the Oera Linda serve this purpose, and thus the same would be true of the Epic of Gilgamesh and other works.
>>41870565Major arcana are the WhatMinor arcana are the WhenSimple as, then.
>>41870781Interesting. That also kind of ties the language part together. Language is about what and when.
>>41870565>major arcana is the best system>kabbalah is too autisticDon't look into how the modern tarot (especially the Rider Waite deck from picrel) was developed, or what system it represents lol
>>41871273get fucked OP
>>41871273>the house>the ox>the goad>the serpent>the water>the eye>the fish>the mouth>the hook>the head>the serpent>the windowwhat the FUCK
>>41872210I'm not sure what revelation you have had
>>41872124No need to hate on OP. Hopefully they have enough curiosity to search "tarot and the tree of life" to learn more and deepen their appreciation and understanding of a system they are already drawn to
>>41872237roughly half of the bosses in balatro have names found on the tree of life, the ones greentextednot every branch has a corresponding boss though, unless there's alternate translations i'm unaware of
>>41872316The names that you see on the tree of life are the 22 letters from the Hebrew alphabet. Each path has a number, Hebrew letter, color, tarot card, etc. associated with it
>>41872341So, the Phoenician alphabet? Hebrew of 2000 years ago was sacredotal as far as I'm aware.
>>41870565>derived psychological systems from external measurements of stars/planets/sunsi think you would find some value in looking at the astrological associations of tarot, if you haven't already. the first trionfi tarot system was created by an astrologer iirc in my own practice i feel it offers a lot of valuable context as to the broader archetypes of the cards. i would do some research on it
>>41873710Hmm is it possible that this is somehow an actual model of the solar system? I don't know the books well enough to say if there are allusions to mathematics that might explain the geometry of the tree.I'm wondering if Saturn is considered the "oldest" god because it's the slowest orbit of the major planets ("wandering stars") that we can detect by the naked eye.
>>41874337Oh shit, this image really is just a geocentric model of the solar system.
>>41872341Is it possible that these 22 paths refer to major constellations mapped in some logical sequence around the sky? These would be a backdrop for the wandering stars that are the nodes of the tree of life.>>41874352I hope Mr Druid Expert appears in this thread. I think this is something he would know.
>>41874396The tree of life is a metaphysical blueprint of creation and the psyche, it is a lot more complex than just being a map of the stars. However 12 of the paths are associated with zodiac signs.I recommend reading if you want to learn more. The Chicken Qabalah of Rabbi Lamed Ben Clifford is a great introduction that is written in humorous plain English. It is very approachable for beginners
>>41874396Well, the path of the planets and stars would seem to be the origin of number systems. Each parallel line is like a base. Base 12, Base 60. These are convenient numbers for talking about rotations (because they are so divisible). The calendar system could be viewed as a number system with asymmetric bases. 1/60 (second) 1/60 (minute)1/24 (hour) 1/365 (day) 1/7 (week) 1/4 (waxing/waning crescent/gibbous moon) 1/12 (moon death and rebirth) 1/4 (Mercury)2/3 (Venus)2/1 (Mars)12/1 (Jupiter)30/1 (Saturn)84/1 (Uranus)165/1 (Neptune)
>>41874577>1/12 (moon death and rebirth)This is the Zodiac. The stars divided by 12 moons.
>>41874577>1/4 (waxing/waning crescent/gibbous moon)This could also be 1/8 if you could full, new, and the 1st and 3rd quarters.
Bump
