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We have discussed the rationales for these statements already in prior threads, and indeed the idea has been espoused across time. However, today I'd like to focus our discussion on a different facet of the Progenitor story: how do men become Gods, why is this process even possible within our physical understanding of the universe, and what are the far-reaching implications that should be visible across our daily reality that sustain this idea. In order to accomplish this we'll need to look at astrophysics, philosophy, belief and the nature of causality and time.

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If you have any questions about the framework my claims are operating within or are interested in that discussion in general, feel free to ask. We have had many fruitful discussions in the past where we go into great detail on the physics of how consciousness and the physical forces reach interplay. We've also talked a lot about how a civilization achieves things like space travel and nuclear fusion/fission while bypassing the industrialization of society.
Again, all interesting topics but points we've discussed in exhaustive detail in the past.

Today I'm interested in tying together the big questions that pervade cosmogeny, the intelligence debate and all of its consequences towards things like SETI and the fermi paradoxes. We'll use other elements from religion and tradition to bolster our arguments, not sustain them.
My goal is to give people a rational framework of ideas they can apply towards forwarding our collective understanding of what Humans are capable of from whatever position and biases you find yourself in personally. This is not a 'theory of everything' but the discussion does demand some degree of familiarity with certain topics.

We'll begin by investigating a very nuts and bolts aspect of our civilizational paradigm, one that's befuddled people for thousands of years and seems to have increasing impact with each passing moment; the classic question posed by the fermi paradox of why we are not at this moment fully integrated with and aware of non-human intelligence in our society and beyond.

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The Fermi Paradox is at its core existential cognitive dissonance. We know instinctively that if we exist, there must be an infinite number of iterations of beings both like and unlike us. With the reality of cosmic timescales added in the mix, it's an absolute certainty that there should be immense interstellar civilizations at scales we could just barely comprehend. This idea is indeed the fare of most science fiction, which seeks to answer this question with various concessions and events that serve to explain why we are in this position and how we might one day discover a new paradigm. Really, this is just a modern day equivalent to the secular concept of the return of God:
The old scriptures across all cultures describe the times when Gods and mortals coexisted. Our cosmogenic models describe a similarly veiled process. Evolution is a good explanation for why we exist, but it cannot explain why we are alone. In fact, it contradicts that idea. Similarly, if Gods once walked among us, that explains a great deal about our species' collective memory and civilizational paradigm. But it contradicts itself when we ask 'why did they leave?'

We infer that the process that brought us into being is something buried deep in the past and which we will only ever partially understand. I think most people never get past this contradiction and end up obsessing over resolving it, hence the movements of Revivalism and things like the Fermi Paradox.
Most of the so-called FP solutions are contradictory on their face; look at the Dark Forest hypothesis. The first true alien invasion story was Wells' War of the Worlds, and even this story was essentially the same solution. All of these stories that use the Dark Forest rely on plot devices to explain exactly why these events transpire over human timescales; the idea of competition existing at the cosmic scale is not logical.

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So our dilemma is as such:
The task of interstellar travel in a capacity necessary for the expansion of a civilization demands enormous effort and technological complexity.
The effort that goes into this kind of undertaking and the sheer degree of complexity requires that we put ourselves into exponentially more dangerous situations in order to accomplish the feat.

We can reason that other lifeforms have similar problems. Biological life no matter its lifespan will find interstellar travel daunting. They will encounter the same problems with dangerous technology, automation, and hyper-specialization towards a task that is in of itself not a practical undertaking. I'll explain.
Any civilization capable of interstellar travel in order to expand its society and industry will necessarily have achieved a post-scarcity society, otherwise it's impossible that they would have the disposable resources needed to undertake the task.
There is ample evidence that every single star system capable of supporting life will also contain all the resources a civilization could ever need. Interstellar travel as a tool of conquest and resource exploitation is not a logical venture to pursue, especially if your civilization is actually capable of doing it.
However, this venture is logical if the goal is not conquest and expansion. There are plenty of reasons we might want to study other planets in-situ or reach higher and higher achievements as we progress as a civilization.

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Imagine the majority of the human race having nothing better to do than carve big rocks. It sounds far fetched until you realize that today they have nothing better to do than carve small piezoelectric ones.

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Let's return to the framing of the Fermi Paradox.
There are no solutions because there is no paradox. The assumptions were incorrect.
Any civilization that achieves the capability to expand between stars will necessarily not have the goal of dominance. They have more resources than their civilization will ever need already orbiting their star, the star itself provides infinite energy, and any conquest-based society will inevitably implode on itself either before or in the process of expanding between stars. Either way, the exercise of command and control in an interstellar setting within a society that values martial achievement over rational logic is fated for disaster. In the best-case scenario you'd end up with a fragmented kaleidoscope of civilizations with competing ideologies and ideals, not a homogenous empire. You can argue such a situation is not sustainable, and even if it has happened before those civilizations did not last cosmic timescales.

All of this is not to say interstellar travel is not possible. I'd argue we're putting the spaceship ahead of the astronaut when we think about these things. If society is the thing that must master its own desires and ambitions in order to safely reach the point where they can venture between stars, it is likely not ambitions being filtered through social moderation that causes the terminal behavior we can expect from a spacefaring civilization. It is more likely these terminal behaviors themselves compel society and the individual towards the situations that allow interstellar travel and beyond.

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Imagine a human being utilizing a lever to lift loads he would not be able to lift otherwise. Imagine how insulted God must be that you claim these are feats of his ultimate power when they are equatable to wooden pulleys and teeter totters

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The universe itself, with its physical composition and natural laws, explicitly prohibits civilizations from reaching the complexity needed to become interstellar without first mastering their social issues. It doesn't take much effort to realize all social problems are macrocosms of the microcosm of personal issues.

This is where we need to address one of the concessions to our current paradigm; that consciousness, time and causality are interwoven with eachother as well as with physical processes like electromagnetism. You can think of this in abstract dimensional terms: tangible physics phenomena are 'contact points' between higher level geometries. Magnetism and electricity appear to us as isolated intersections of the underlying geometry of EM. But the reality is that EM is another convenient abstraction of a larger system that encompasses all physics as we know it and more. In that sense, everything is functionally connected. The notion of the father, son and holy ghost is another illustration of this exact thinking. Things that appear distinct and independent can be leveraged more effectively if we realize they are always parts of monolithic systems.

Consciousness is another junction of physics and determinism. We know it affects time via mechanisms of relativity. We know it influences EM with photonic experiments. Beyond the highly censured world of mainstream academia, there are obviously even more conclusions to be drawn.

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The conclusion is self-evident when you strip away the nihilism and assumptions artificially embedded in the anthropocentric framework we are immersed in at birth.
The tools to navigate time, space and the human-scale physical world are endemic to living beings. We can test this hypothesis by looking at other forms of life on Earth, since if we can exhibit these abilities other lifeforms should as well.
Indeed, this thinking does serve to explain many of the stark mysteries we see in the animal kingdom. We know that simple life, even at the scale of single cells and smaller, is capable of consistent decision-making, future planning and other complex behaviors even without a single nervous apparatus. Animals with extremely fast reaction times often demonstrate that their synapses can fire faster than their sensory organs should be able to detect input. Perhaps the biggest nail in the coffin of the old paradigm is the fact many mammals with no recognized means of communication can communicate highly granular information across generations and outside of their descendants. If you aren't familiar, look into studies on how hyenas, primates, elephants and birds have been able to identify individuals they liked and disliked and convey that information to other individuals, to such an effect that the person in question will be recognized even wearing a mask and through glass to prevent identification of scent. It's clear that these kinds of capabilities are essential to the success of life at all levels, and humans are just one highly developed example of leveraging so-called 'esp' and other functional forms of non-physical communication and interaction.

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Hopefully we understand the precepts of our discussion.
Now, I'd like to look at the application of our thinking. Why did Fermi believe in a paradox, and why did God ever need to leave?
As they ascend the ladder of social complexity, every civilization needs to address its biggest issues at the smallest scales. If a problem is too large to be understood by the wisest men, it will never be truly resolved.
What we end up with is a reality wherein individuals encompass the totality of the virtue and accomplishment of an entire civilization. You could definitely argue that Jesus was one such person, and with a bit of scrutiny it's obvious his teachings and the teachings of figures like him across all cultures are precisely in line with this idea that the individual not only holds the key to a civilization's success but that they must also be the one who turns that key.

If the universe's arrangement physically prohibits civilizations from becoming tyrannical/destructive at scale, and the individual can determine the success of a civilization, we end up with a more pragmatic and realistic model of how interstellar civilizations actually work.
An advanced civilization that travels the stars would consist of individuals, some flawed and some with power over time and space that seem godlike. It's this ability that allows them to accomplish the feats of travelling great distances. This civilization is not incompatible with dysfunction or technology; technology may play a large role in the mechanics of how interstellar travel is actually achieved. But the point is, the best people in these societies are universally bound to a set of principles and true understandings regardless of their species' context. These principles would be identified by any civilization tackling the mysteries of our world since they are universal and not specific to humans. Therefore, it's most likely the advanced civilizations traveling the stars at this moment are far more like us than unlike us.

I agree.

It is all in our memory.
The earth and our bodies are the "technology". Yet we need to achieve some critical mass within, and beyond ourselves.
We are not alone and never have been. Everyone else is just one little twitch of our internal frequency away. It's just out of sync.
If we move our consciousness enough we can interact.

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>>42082570
>The earth and our bodies are the "technology"
Indeed. Things like magnetic reconnection between planets is not well understood today but we do know ancient man was fascinated by high altitude plasmas and this kind of activity might offer a mechanism for interstellar energy exchange between planets as well. Basically, planets with magnetic fields occasionally unify their field with the sun's (and other bodies as well) allowing them to exchange ion potential across cosmic distances 'instantaneously.' Technically we don't understand where this energy potential comes from but we see it anyway.
The pushback against plasma/electric universe theories also underscores this point.

Hi OP,

Interesting threads as always, I remember some of these from before.

I agree that in the nexus of concepts like “the gods,” ancient man, and alien civilizations there is something to be probed in more depth.

I think you’re on target in saying that for isolated civilizations to become capable of galactic exploration, they need to be masters of their own impulses, not prone to implosion borne of vain or ignorant conflicts, and to have the ability to fully command the resources in their own solar system and vicinity. However, I’m not sure they always remain like that. Until we make contact, this is total conjecture I guess. Change is the nature of things – resources once abundant could run out, technology could be lost, or the stock of a population could denature through any number of ways. We see this on earth – groups that do not fight and lose touch with their ‘animal instinct’ become weak over time. Even the surviving tales we have from the times before the flood from the bible, or after the flood like Gilgamesh, are full of strife and the hero’s journey.

Speaking of before the flood, a lot of those patriarchs had long lifespans, some into the 10s of thousands of years… the image of someone with the favor of the gods being fed the ankh in ancient Egyptian symbolism comes to mind. Sort of like taking a life extension pill, whether it is a literal or symbolic depiction of what the ancient tech was. Maybe other ancient symbols (rod and ring, handbag, etc.) are depictions of tech.

Yes, if we refine our consciousness on an individual level, and on a societal level, I do think it is possible hypothetically to make contact. I’m not sure if this would even be with beings from other star systems. I think one of the most likely scenarios for unidentified craft is the remnants of a previous breakaway civilization either from earth or somewhere nearby, and there is a mothership somewhere that is releasing drones. Even this ancient tech could be interacted with passively through channeling the right vibrations.

But when we see stuff like Puma Punku… I think on an intuitive level we just know that whatever society created these is beyond our current understanding. It was a totally different relationship in those times between man, the earth, and technology.

When you’re envisioning ‘the gods’ here, did they first become godlike on their own, in the isolated environment of a long-forgotten epoch of earth’s history, or did they make contact with outsiders to gain these powers, or are you allowing for either possibility?

>>42080865
>these terminal behaviors

Can you clarify what you mean here by terminal behaviors? I can think of a few interpretations that would fit the context.

>>42080617
Myself? I'm Antigenitor.

>>42086434
>>42080947
>>42080617
>humans
lol
We are the forgotten remnants of a superior civilization with higher technology, and the people who lied to us about it will be rounded up and shot.
>"You're just afterbirth Eli."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-9wXFQRgA

Bump

>>42080617
>huge urban societies that make modern cities look like villages
If this were true why aren't there any remnants of those cities, or any artifacts? And why were there still resources everywhere lying untouched in the ground?

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>>42086416
The specific virtues that are sustained by traditions and associated with the Progenitors all revolve around ways of life that heals and sustains civilization regardless of its situation. In other words there is an expectation that the virtues of these societies result in the conveyance of tradition and cohesion between cataclysms and periods of civilizational decline.
Look at our own story. The biological and behavioral evidence suggests we've been creating civilization on evolutionary timescales. No matter what our situation is, we create complex machines, develop languages and arts, study nature and apply its secrets towards our success. Having humans on Earth guarantees there will be a civilization here that will preserve itself no matter what happens. The model of civilization is the same everywhere in the universe, and humans actively create material evidence of the virtues of civilization constantly.
Stories of 'creator gods' like Quezocoatl are obvious because they relied on direct conveyance like oral tradition. But we also have pictograms describing his actions and virtues, showing there was consideration of informational loss with time.
Once you have the virtues of a civilization it should be very difficult to lose them unless there is essentially total extinction. Meaning you can afford to lose progress because the act of applying these virtues means you have prepared the tools for civilizational renewal.

I would argue this is generally beneficial even though most people would look at our society today and see it as a step backwards from the tangible success of the Progenitors.
This is where our biology and behavior really start to matter towards understanding our situation.

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A baby born in a dirt hole in the siberian steppe 400,000 years ago will have a litany of tools given to them via conveyance, and taught by their society that ensures they will have the abilities needed to survive their environment and move towards increasing sophistication, until survival eventually stops being an issue.
That same baby born into a typical situation in the world today will be capable of engineering vehicles that can travel between planets. Society's main reason for being is to convey to the next generation what has already been learned.

This pattern of behavior that arises when the virtues are applied work in combination with our biological design. This is something we've had trouble reconciling and plays into your conjecture.
Think in a scale of increasing sophistication for a cultural conveyance system; the simplest end includes oral tradition and folk practices, the middle has writing and art, and the complex end would be an entire civilization's history written to our DNA and accessible to anyone that possesses the tools to access it.
Ironically, the 'most sophisticated' method appears available to all lifeforms as I mentioned earlier. So maybe our sliding scale is more like a circle where one side represents conscious conveyance and the other unconscious. These can blend into eachother, and the most extreme positions can be seen as changing with their own oscillations. This is the sun and moon.
This comes to my next point;

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The nature of reality and consciousness within it allows us to convey knowledge in extremely complex ways by leveraging the environment itself. The day-to-day experience of life on planet Earth encodes deep civilizational wisdom because it is a seat of civilization and such seats always conform to their inhabitant. The sun and moon's geometry relative to Earth is not arbitrary. The reason 'why' these things are true really doesn't matter. We're focusing on the tree for the forest when we look at the moon and try to understand why it is the way it is, impossibly positioned as if created by a vivid imagination. Unexplainable.
What matters is that we look at the moon and realize there is a complex story to this world. All of the planets serve this purpose, as the traditions explicitly characterized them over and over. Why is astronomy practiced by the "simplest" cultures? Because astronomy is a civilizational virtue. Its terminal behavior (here I'm using the same phrase/meaning, >>42086434) is exploration of space. Its initial behavior is stargazing. These are the same actions in different contexts. You don't necessarily need the starship or the telescope, depending what your individual tools are; by extension, those tools are the tools of your civilization. If you have the tools to walk on planets around that star you're looking at, you can do it in perhaps limitless different ways. With the right tools, you can do it in 10,000 years with nuclear fusion and fleets of self-replicating space vehicles. But the exact same thing can be achieved with different tools also, and those tools are all defined by our civilization: the goal is to remove the level of abstraction between the Kingdom and the Man, because the Kingdom sets our paradigm while the Man sets our reality. You see this idea defined constantly throughout all religions.

>>42086881
you may call me Pro Genitals.

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One way of thinking about it is as dreaming. When you dream, you can enter a situation that is completely foreign to you, yet you are able to navigate it as if it's normal. This is an intrinsic characteristic of life. The 'context' of the dream is your civilization's degree of awareness. You still have individuality in a dream, it's just expressed in relation to the civilization. If the context says you are a bird, you have the ability of flight and sharp senses. A worm's abilities are very different from the bird's but it is an expression of the same intelligence. That intelligence, when in the universal context of civilization, will foster and expand that vision of civilization through personality, society and reality simultaneously.
You can dream about flying as a bird or being a skilled pianist because a human being knows instinctively how to fly using wings and a bird knows how to perform music using hands. The confusion only arises when you tell the man he's a man when he thinks he's a bird. This also perfectly summates the strategy being used to suppress our true capabilities; you just confuse people into believing they are a lifeform that is warlike and narcissistic. Hence why their 'weapons' all employ some degree of hypnosis. Hypnosis allows rewriting of the subconscious, which is the mediator between reality and perception.

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>>42091156

Good thread, OP, I specifically like how you explain aliens possibly being more similar than different to us based on being faced with the same universal dilemmas.

Bump because hidden human history is my favorite /x/ topic and the most plausible IMO

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>>42080617
In ancient texts when they talk about dragons, fairies, and other shit, they were being literal and real. I am not joking.
Modern humans live in the post-apocalypse version of what used to be something akin to a fantasy world.

>>42098534
Most people’s cars run on dragon blood

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>>42080805
>Biological life no matter its lifespan will find interstellar travel daunting

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>>42099666
I agree with your allusion, but my statement still stands. It's possible that there are many kinds of life that routinely travel between stars establishing a baseline of DNA based life across parts of the galaxy, akin to how coconuts spread across the ocean by randomly being carried by tides.
My point was about a species traversing these distances while preserving its civilizational ambitions and social identity.
It's easy to dismiss "simple life" as lacking civilization and society, but we should remember that social hierarchy and behavior does exist in species like ants in particular.
I'd argue all of these behaviors are deeply interrelated towards the same ultimate goal. On a planet with life, it's most likely that the life's biology will develop along similar pathways. To your point, I'd argue this is usually the result of a perpetual mechanism of cosmic seeding that influences most planets. But even without this influence it's possible to sustain this argument with pure biology as we understand it. The reality on Earth is that huge numbers of species evolved the same biological systems (chlorophyll, RNA/DNA, etc) convergently. It makes sense that across the universe, most but not all life is biologically similar.

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The important nuance arises from the fact consciousness influences other consciousness via both communication and observation in the same way consciousness influences physical reality. Let's imagine a situation where humans exist as the stereotypical hunter gatherer, with 0 civilization. This is the image academia present for the entirety of our history prior to agriculture. The reality is that this kind of situation probably did exist at various times, either out of choice or as a consequence of major cataclysmic events, and even in those cases likely wasn't the status quo.
In this situation you can imagine how a human stumbles on an ant or termite hill in the savannah and realize the towering mud structures hold bountiful food.
In the process of acquiring food, the man is exposed to the processes that allow the ant society to thrive. He sees different types of ants being used for different tasks. He sees food storage and preservation. He sees collective distribution of tasks, centralization, and leadership.
When he hunts beasts he sees these same hierarchies expressed in a different biology. He notices how the pack sacrifices the weak for the betterment of all. He sees how the leader is expected to earn his alpha status. He sees the division of labor between sexes.
In the process of survival, the human inevitably becomes exposed to the template of his own civilization; the immediate Kingdom of God/nature mirrors the eventual kingdom of Man. Life itself is a machine that breeds civilizations, even if its individual parts never fully realize that goal. One could argue the universe itself is specifically designed with this intentionality in mind, considering how its physical laws are oriented such that our paradigm is possible. This realization helps us understand how our consciousness is interrelated to the universe; it's likely that the apparent motivation of nature and physics to create life is the same motivation life has to create civilization.

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>>42091101
Both of your questions have numerous solutions. Some are hypothetical based on our model of the Progenitor civ, some are known to be true.
>why aren't there any remnants of those cities, or any artifacts?
The simple answer is that there are. By extension, they have been systematically suppressed by the nihilistic institutions that manage our history and sciences.

The more complex answer is that we don't know exactly what timeframe we're expected to find the kind of "high civilization" that would be unignorable. If this existed 15,000 years ago we might find traces of it along with other more recent settlements; you can argue this has already happened in Egypt, Persia, Turkey, S. America, China, SE Asia, etc. But the reality is that when you index back in time much farther, the odds of discovering that civilization falls off exponentially. A civilization identical to ours, with nuclear power, alloys and global presence would be invisible to us over 50,-100,000 years ago.
The best place to look for traces of this civilization would be in local space. Quite an interesting realization in light of how we inexplicably decided to stop manned exploration of space for no good reason.

The nuance to this point which begs speculation is that the Progenitors did not, as we have discussed, have an industrial civilization that mirrors ours. They managed to employ technology without exploiting nature. This means their technology would not look like technology to us today, thus we are blind to their achievements even as we look right at them.

finally a good fucking thread

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>>42098534

I believe that reality is just biology to the infinite degree. The Earth is made of literally dead creatures/beings. And I believe if you keep zooming out our universe is a living entity that could be a skin cell for another being and that being is inside a universe that is a cell for another being etc etc. I think u could essentially zoom out forever, as well as zoom in forever, and it makes sense because everything is infinite, no beginning or end.

Bump

>>42102556
I like this type of pictures

>>42102556
>US/Mexico border

>>42080617
jews hate white people and western nations because Rome kicked their ass in 70 AD and they have been big mad ever since. I am going to do it again lol

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>>42103934
>>42103956
Today we see the most complex technological societies to in 'known' history coexisting alongside tribals. That same high tech society is often dependent on the simpler societies around them.
If this paradigm were also true during the era of the Progenitors, it's no surprise we struggle to identify their high society among the far more abundant and widespread simpler societies that have always existed.

bump

>>42080617
Peacefag cope

>>42108451
Seems far more likely the person who doesn't have an argument to his claims is coping.

>>42080741
Fermi Paradox

>>42080805
>interstellar travel

Space is fake

n

>>42112236
Where is this?

So OP, returning to the Gods, why did they leave earth for the cosmos, and what is their goal out there do you think? What did they do on earth - was this an origin point for one starfaring species, or did they leave only after the point they left the civilization of earth with a certain regenerative capacity? Did they achieve godlike status on their own or with outside assistance? Can we do it again ourselves, say if we dig up the Giza underworld, we dig up the Hawara labyrinth, we recover the Book of Thoth, etc.. can we recover what was lost by recovering traces of the past, or do you think we need to change fundamentally in a way beyond that?

What do you think some of their ‘universal principles’ were, inferring what you can from what was left behind? I agree that they interfaced more seamlessly with nature, and maybe found a way to allow their consciousnesses to influence reality, but beyond that. Beyond virtues that focused on self-regeneration of civilization, is there anything more specific you can see evidence of from the tech? I keep coming back to some of their universal symbols, like the false doors and acoustics/resonance and wondering what the exact purpose was. Astronomy as a civilizational virtue is true, any others?

I asked you this before, but how did they remain virtuous without strife if by the time they went galactic they were totally cooperation-based? how did they avoid becoming weak? this is a legitimate concern. When we look at the species of earth today, competition and the cycle of life and death rules over all, and for good reason. By toiling against this cycle a species stays robust. I don’t think they were as peaceful as you do, I wouldn’t even be surprised if they practiced human sacrifice. We are able to sustain ourselves because we “consume” other life. I don’t think there is a way around the biomass pyramid.

Maybe our history is written into our DNA. it's an elegant idea. our DNA still holds a lot of mystery. I like the idea that our DNA is in some sense either the 'akashic records' or interfaces with it. I was reading earlier today about the ancient symbolism in the major arcana, which has 22 cards, the same as the number of autosomal chromosomes we have. spooky! another funny coincidence is I am using a "strength" tarot card as a bookmark that someone left on the sidewalk outside my house and I picked up one day, but I digress.

>Hence why their 'weapons' all employ some degree of hypnosis

Who is “they” here and what are you counting as hypnosis?

there's some interesting snippets across your posts here that serve as good food for thought. to highlight a few I enjoyed:

>[talking about the fermi paradox] Really, this is just a modern day equivalent to the secular concept of the return of God
I like that way of putting it, I agree. On a semi-related note, perhaps ancient tech still draws power from our sun!

>all social problems are macrocosms of the microcosm of personal issues.
hmm, true

>tangible physics phenomena are 'contact points' between higher level geometries.
Maybe this even applies to the entirety of the observable physical universe, according to some models!

>the individual not only holds the key to a civilization's success but that they must also be the one who turns that key.
turns as well as returns...

>know ancient man was fascinated by high altitude plasmas
makes me think of the scary-looking stick figure guy who appears in ancient rock art.

>The 'context' of the dream is your civilization's degree of awareness.
Or to rephrase – what concepts your civilization has a name for.

>the 'most sophisticated' method [of interfacing virtue and biological design] appears available to all lifeforms as I mentioned earlier. So maybe our sliding scale is more like a circle where one side represents conscious conveyance and the other unconscious. These can blend into eachother, and the most extreme positions can be seen as changing with their own oscillations. This is the sun and moon.
This is my favorite idea from the thread so far. very interesting to think about

>>42109577
images like this are so much fun. pyramid math and the pyramid's connections to the dimensions of the earth and physical constants of nature are a guilty pleasure of mine. anyone who has more images of this genre, please post. I love getting lost in these rabbit holes.

bump

>>42115356
https://beforeatlantis.com/2019/01/20/the-inca-steps-of-quenuani-peru/

>>42110553
HHHH

>>42080617
>>42080661
>>42080741
>>42080805
>pictures of rocks on top of rocks
>evidence of ancient humanity with ability to manipulate the world itself down to molecular level, with planet spanning cities
The fuck man? We have fucking skyscrapers, how come we don’t see that shit from their civilization?
How is it that we can find fucking cave writings in oceans (submerged caves) but can’t find ANYTHING, literally zero tech, from these supposed ancient “gods”?
It’s all bullshit and you know it

>>42117537
Planetary wide cataclysm/s + whatever was found is kept away from the public eye.

>>42102556
>>42105294
Suuuure
Know let’s see…which one is gonna be easier to identify in a thousand years, the guy, and his horse, and his tech, or the airplane
It’s obvious that even if thousands of years were to pass, we could have still identify man made technologically advanced tech.
Yet we observe nothing of this magnitude in ancient humans
ALL we see is tribal shit
Your stories don’t make sense

>>42100643
>Quite an interesting realization in light of how we inexplicably decided to stop manned exploration of space for no good reason.
Because there was fucking no reason to.
>usa and Soviet’s had a dick measuring contest
>USA won
>nasa budget was cut
If soviets would have won, you bet your ass we would have had space colonies by now.
We humans do shit not for utility, but for competition
Almost all our tech came out of war necessities
>The nuance to this point which begs speculation is that the Progenitors did not, as we have discussed, have an industrial civilization that mirrors ours. They managed to employ technology without exploiting nature. This means their technology would not look like technology to us today, thus we are blind to their achievements even as we look right at them.
>show pictures alluding to LITERAL natural exploitation
I mean common dude
>>42117755
Nigga it’s all man unfortunate that you didn’t read about history.
Long before “alien did it, superior humans did it” humans had the “gods/demon did it”
Not so Ancient stuff like Persepolis or takht e jamshid were thought to have been the works of Solomon’s demons.
I am saying this because you and lots of people think that shit like pyramids or bunch of rocks are “mysteriously made” and when told these are just the same exact thoughts people had thousands of years ago, you go into this weird shit about “oh yeah, the ACTUAL good ones are hidden”
It’s like how graham Hancock answer to “well we excavated thousands of sites both on ground and under water, where are those ancient technologies” and he answers with “did you literally excavated the entire Sahara desert???”

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>>42115585
I would argue most of our preconceptions about how an advanced civilization would handle its inhabited planets is influenced by colonialist thinking since that model has been applied so widely in our history. Science fiction hasn't helped either since it's a fundamental trope.
We have an image of planets as 'colonies' with travel times between them, regions of influence, a set of nearby neighbor stars, etc. Essentially a projection of an island state in the colonial model; you need ships to get there, you need to deal with local problems using either local or expensively imported external resources, and the entire dynamic of how you deal with problems hinges on what kind of capability you have available externally.
This perspective colors your assertion also. The notion that Earth is an 'origin' for a now-diversified civilization or that its inhabitants left is essentially a projection of colonial thinking. While this sort of thing is possible I don't think it's likely given the reasons I discussed around the problems of interstellar travel. If anything, cataclysm on Earth would likely result in elevated human presence within the solar system beyond Earth. We do see evidence for this.
The other problem that arises is the idea that settling other planets/moons in the solar system is not a reasonable pure survival strategy. You build and settle on the Moon, Mars, etc., because you are highly capable, not because you are desperate. Again, it's possible people could survive a terrestrial cataclysm by hiding out on other planets but it's not an option that guarantees civilizational survival. The only absolute way of doing that is by hardening your society and preparing it for the specific problem you face.

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As for what's 'necessary' to reclaim the Progenitor legacy, I'd argue there are many potential solutions. Rediscovering the legitimacy of their legacy by finding artifacts that prove their capability in an unignorable way could accelerate us on that path, but I'd argue it's inevitable even without this.
Humans have the core mysteries that define the Progenitors' capabilities embedded in them and in nature. As I said before, we ensure conveyance of knowledge by shaping reality to those ends. As long as minds like DaVinci and Tesla are being born, rediscovery is inevitable. You can imagine our current society being set back another 9,000 years by a nuclear conflict or meteor impact and turning away from the industrial path out of remorse. Something like that would probably be the 'fastest' way to pivot as a civilization, though needlessly destructive. The easiest way is to be aware of the legacy and the true nature of human potential and dwell on it, internally and externally. When you think and talk about it reality is shaped towards that ambition far more quickly than towards other ideals because you are being truthful and unambiguous.

You may almost think of it as a relationship with a compassionate partner. You are flawed, and the partner is flawed, but the partner has acknowledged their flaws honestly. You can either choose to be honest yourself, or to lie about your issues to downplay/deflect. This might buy you time in the short-term to pursue unrealistic ambitions together, but eventually your lies will fall apart as all lies do. You lose something, but the partner was honest so they risk nothing in this process. In this example you are human civilization and the partner is Earth and by extension the human legacy. We lied by telling ourselves there is benefit in worshipping ourselves. This got us surprisingly far in a brief time, but such gains are ill-gotten and have led to a dysfunctional civilization.

>>42080617
>the demiurge keeps trying to make paradise on earth
>fails every time
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hKdfReE0qds

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>>42115614
To be clear I never said they were "peaceful" because in general this terms is also co-opted by modern perception built on our own false narratives of things like biology and naturism. Saying they were 'peaceful' is an inaccurate generalization just as saying we are 'warlike.' When humans are taught martial culture, we excel at it and make it a core aspect of our civilization. There are arguably situations where this capability is desired. But the core mistake we made in academia was assessing this capability as our biological nature. Meaningful human sacrifice and occasional conflict over the interpretation of ideals is not incompatible with the thinking I've put forward. Indeed, you can argue these conflicts led us to where we are today if you are not convinced by the cataclysmic model.

Humans did not climb the ladder by war or extermination, either of other primates, ourselves or other species. You'll notice the academic paradigm firmly presupposes all 3. However it just takes a modicum of critical assessment of our traditions and biology to see this cannot be true. Our bodies are blatantly unfit for combat. In evolutionary terms we sacrificed all of the physical advantages that would give us a leg up on other species and a competitive exploit against ourselves in favor of highly advanced social and communicative ability. That's without even mentioning the one thing we seem to have in stark contrast with all other species on Earth; our paraphysical abilities. I don't mean ESP when I say 'paraphysical' I'm referring to our innate ability to externalize our perception into other systems. This allows us to do truly astonishing things like driving vehicles, operating machines, typing on keyboards, etc., nearly as soon as we are born. We are innately system operators. Civilization is simply the most complex system we can currently build.

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The things we term pure biology are more complex than we currently realize. You can have higher thinking even without DNA, but DNA is certainly performing consciousness-related functions we don't yet have an understanding of. This paradigm extends beyond biology as well as we can observe so-called dead matter having properties far beyond what physics should allow.
Water, metals and other crystalline materials are still essentially mysteries in terms of modern material science and physics. A simple quartz crystal can violate energy conservation. A drop of water can cause a nuclear fusion event through cavitation using just biological energy. The idea that you can "clap your hands" under water (a simplification of leveraging mechanical advantage of physiology but you get the point) and quite literally provoke nuclear fusion should be something that drives a re-evaluation of physics as a whole. There's also evidence that observational causality conditions can meaningfully affect neutron pathway probability in a nuclear cascade. Meaning there is a mechanism by which literally thinking a certain way can trigger nuclear fusion/fission in a fissile material. This might sound like a stretch at first, but the physics has been discussed seriously and if we can cause nuclear fusion by snapping our fingers it's not a far cry that we can do the same by leveraging other currently unknown physics.

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As for hypnosis, this is a topic I have a great deal of personal interest in as it encapsulates both the psychological reality of humanity and the cultural campaigns to suppress it. "They" are simply people who develop the tools that allow psychological suppression of the human legacy through institutions like academia, commercial entities, political organizations, etc. One of the most obvious realizations you'll have if you start experimenting with hypnosis, self-hypnosis and hypnogogia is that these are functional states used to leverage perception and that they are endemic to our experience.
"Hypnosis" itself is kind of a red herring since it's only describing an extreme example of how the subconscious operates. It's the deep end of the same swimming pool we're all in. The subconscious can read an entire page of text in mere seconds; it can produce experiences via dreams and visions of information that is in some way independent of us. You related the notion of the Akashic system, but all esoteric belief systems have an equivalent.
In practice, our culture has simultaneously mocked the idea of hypnosis through media and social narrative while also developing and applying it systematically through technology and commercialism. Without this capability to program the subconscious, the degree of institutional control over society we see in today's world would not be possible.

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>>42115664
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I do think we are well equipped by literary traditions to talk about these things, especially since the institutions we're up against also primarily employ literary ideas towards their goals. Science fiction's frameworks are essentially a reaction to and transmutation of secular ideology and offer an accessible inroad to these existential questions.

As for virtues, I'd argue these are based on an intentionality that shifts with context. Hence the tenets of Moses and the teachings of Quetzalcoatl being different but aimed at the same goal. The goal is to reach a state where personal intention is aligned with civilizational intention, which is also aligned with cosmic intention. This is why the pantheon of Gods is simultaneously planetary, elemental and also based on personal archetypes of often flawed individuals. Personal differences make us stronger when we are operating in a framework that is honest and addresses them as features rather than flaws.
This exact thinking arises, as I've discussed in the past, in the mythology of the Holy Grail. To restore the Kingdom you must reconcile with your enemies and learn how to leverage their differences towards the betterment of the whole. The Earth needs the Moon for life to exist, yet the Moon is virtually as far from habitable by humans as is possible. The relationship is deeper than surface level, it's archetypical. You only realize the role the Moon plays in making Earth habitable if you have a philosophy to explain it. Today that philosophy is planetary science, but we have had many others that served the same purpose.

>>42119209
> A simple quartz crystal can violate energy conservation. A drop of water can cause a nuclear fusion event through cavitation using just biological energy. The idea that you can "clap your hands" under water (a simplification of leveraging mechanical advantage of physiology but you get the point) and quite literally provoke nuclear fusion should be something that drives a re-evaluation of physics as a whole.
No they don’t. Literally go prove that crystal violate conservation of energy and go get a physics noble, TODAY!
And no, cavitation bubbles are not fucking nuclear fusion man

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>>42117537
>>42117771
>>42117837
Respectfully, your positions are all coming from a system of thinking that contradicts the very first precept of the argument I've presented. I also understand this topic can be emotional for people.

I structured the OP with this precept as the first sentence as it's the foundational realization that leads to progression to the Progenitor hypothesis. In other words, in a pure logic framework such as a literal hypothesis (in the scientific experimental meaning) the Progenitor hypothesis arrives on its own after establishing this precept.
The actual proofs that sustain the precept that humans are not inherently warlike via some kind of behavioral evolutionary programming are very obvious and don't require much analysis to arrive at.
Evolutionary science has the problem of having to explain vastly more complex processes than it understands using very limited tools. As a result it applies categorical thinking to outliers. So the biological contradictions to it end up being perceived as accidental or benign.
Convergent evolution, abiogensis and behavioral intelligence are probably the most important aspects of life science period. But they're all explained as being accidental or benign, just arising from other systems that are also random and benign. This problem arises in other sciences as well, particularly physics which has historically just pushed the literal "randomness" further and further down in scale in order to explain phenomenon that are clearly self-defining and not arising from randomness.

If you're interested in learning about the specific arguments that the precept hinges on I'm happy to explain those however I'm not interested in trying to change your mind.

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>>42119363
https://pubs.aip.org/aip/jcp/article/143/2/024505/825160/Nature-of-radiation-induced-defects-in-quartz

Quartz absorbs for more energy than its atomic bonds permit under our current understanding of materials. As the article states, this is well known.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminescence
>The mechanism of the phenomenon of sonoluminescence is unknown. Hypotheses include: hotspot, bremsstrahlung radiation, collision-induced radiation and corona discharges, nonclassical light, proton tunneling, electrodynamic jets and fractoluminescent jets (now largely discredited due to contrary experimental evidence).

There is no accepted explanation for where the photon energy produced by cavitation, or more specifically Sonoluminescence comes from. Nor piezophotonic emissions. The 4 leading explanations rely on unproven mechanisms at the quantum level or rely on relativistic physics. The most popular one says cavitation gets its photon energy from Bremsstrahlung radiation. This is a kind of thermal blackbody shift due to relativity and is also used as an explanation for laser and ion induced nuclear fusion. This is in fact the model that is usually accepted in academia, so yes Sonoluminescence is described as a form of nuclear fusion.
These are both accepted and legitimate mysteries even within the standard model.

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>>42115691
You should find this very interesting.
https://isida-project.org/estrella/
A more general video showing some other formations in the area:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQBg65ZDlvU

>>42119375
This is not emotional.
The fact is that you literally have ZERO evidance that shows an existence of a prehistoric “super” civilization with planet wide city and magic-like tech.
If such a thing was true, then we should have seen their leftovers.
We have fucking poop painting evidance in underwater caves from 20-30k years ago, but no mega structural building remained intact? Get out of here

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>>42119789
That is not a response to what you replied to. A good faith discussion depends on procedural logic, foremost expressed as a dialectic. If you cannot sustain a dialectic there is no purpose in argument because science, logic and philosophy are all based on the dialectic.
I'd recommend you go in the archive and look for past threads with the Progenitor title if you're genuinely curious about learning. We all have different starting points and this discussion relies on multiple fairly technical fields.

bump

>>42119928
>protruding buttocks as a platform for carrying baby

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
*wheeze*
LMAO LOL ROFLMAO
written by "scientists" who never had kids, babies can barely grab anything, let alone latch onto a SMOOTH-SKINNED mother, primates can only do it because THEIR FUCKING ARMS ARE LONGER and have FUR

>>42119928
>>42125040
OH, OH!! AND, our fucking TEETH are totally like an aquatic animals right?? YEah we got those HIGHLY SPECIALIZED teeth for eating aquatic food *busts out crab shell cracker*

>>42119928
>>42125040
>>42125047

*dies of the TINIEST lodged fish bone* OOPS LOOOL THANKS EVOLUTION

>>42080617
.....And then the brown people arrived

>>42119928
>>42124379
WHY DO WE NEED STAIRS HOMIE, WE WUZ SWIMMIN AN SHIET

Can I get a tldr

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>>42098534
>Modern humans live in the post-apocalypse version of what used to be something akin to a fantasy world.
This makes too much sense.

>>42119928
Lmao
Not only people are laughing at your retard infos, but you are unable to answer ANY of my issues
Literally, we have caves full of poop painting, fuck that, we have thousands years old fucking GRAVES!
Like we can distinguish a MAN MADE hole in a ground vs a NORMAL hole in a ground, yet we literally have ZERO evidance for ANYTHING modern
Why is that? Why can’t you respond to that like a sane person?
Like I mean I can drop a spoon on ground today and someone can still discover it 10000 years in the future, but we can’t find their massive planet wide cities?

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>>42103934
You should watch Koyaanisqatsi. Lots of shots similar to that SR-71

>>42128258
O wow

Thats fascinating

>>42128288
Intredasting lemme think in my smart brain

Human trafficking?

I wanna know so i can call the police arrest you and have a legally owned firearm >>42128299

All narrative, no evidence. To get around this glaring deficiency OP demonizes archaeological, historical, and scientific communities.

Rating: pathetic.

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>>42128314
>*BONKS you in the head with a cube*

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>>42128339
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWLPqWVajUE

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>>42119438
That article at least is simply admitting that we do not have a clear way to probe the quantum structure of quartz using current methods, and that the results are unexpected when comparing displacement energy required for oxygen vs. silicon molecules inside the quartz. This does not imply in any way a violation of conservation of energy. This is not dissimilar from differences in observed particle energies/decay structures seen in our particle colliders vs. what is theorized with the standard model. Again, these differences do not imply a violation of the conservation of energy, but rather a uncertainty derived from empirical methods (which can't provide perfect certainty anyways).

Conservation of energy fundamentally does not have to do with specific arrangements of matter/particles, but with symmetry in gauge groups from which we derive quantum fields etc. The mathematical derivation of this is quite clear and overall points to the quantum interpretation of physical phenomenon to at least be the best physical theory that we currently have.

In any case, your posts are some of the most interesting that have been posted in /x/, period. Please do go on!

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>>42128653
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
My intention was to illustrate the fact that the most common/mundane materials Earth, silica and water, have intrinsic properties that are both applicable towards practical energy applications and remain unexplained. The physics of how quartz absorbs radiation is highly unusual given the behavior of similar crystalline materials, similar to the ability of water to release fusion-level photon energies from human scale mechanical forces.

Without going into too much detail, we've discussed in the past the extreme prevalence of these 2 materials (and others) in ancient building and engineering cultures. For example the Old Kingdom was artificially doping quartz with radioactive materials to create colored glasses. Today we've only just realized quartz is an exceptional energy storage media as well as radiation moderator, both qualities that are possible thanks to its unusual properties. The reverence with which many cultures treated water is also important.

In Peru it's been passed down that cultures like the Paracas built their water systems around humanistic principles; water became masculine/feminine depending on what direction it traveled, etc. They also had an extremely nuanced applied understanding of fluid dynamics at scale.
https://youtube.com/shorts/QYfsRIHXKHQ

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>>42128314
My objective in this thread was not to present 'evidence' for specific ideas as I've done this extensively in prior threads. Again, if you are genuinely interested in this topic I suggest you look int he archive. We've had very meaningful and effective debates over the evidence.
The "archaeological, historical, and scientific communities" have always been wrong about everything; over time the magnitude of their error only decreases. That's a feature not a flaw, and the progress out of confusion is something accomplished by people outside of the academic circles far more than within.

The "experts" practiced bloodletting. They said gorillas were cryptids. They said heavier than air flight was impossible. They said the Pyramids were built by slaves. They said plate tectonics is pseudoscience.
Every single academic 'fact' has been wrong. Assuming the precepts of these institutions are correct because they are contemporary to your life is shortsighted.

>>42130882
Yep, if you're talking about interesting material properties then you're certainly onto something. The only disconnect I had was with the wording regarding conservation of energy, but I understand now that it was just a semantic difference.

The examples you bring up are fascinating. While I'm not well versed in these particular topics, my intuition does tell me that it is unlikely that the ancients were simply building funerary chambers. The presence of lime, salt, water, and quartz in the construction of the pyramids points to something more than coincidence considering the available interactions of those elements.

There are some very fascinating modern examples of experiments with results that confound theory and have resulted in some of the most interesting technology that we currently possess. While this is a bit off from the main thrust of your posts, I think you might find them interesting to read about:

Optical phase conjugation
Non linear optical materials
Slow light experiments
Machian interpretation of general relativity
Synthetic aperture optics
Laser induced plasma cavitation in air (related to sonoluminescense)
Field resonance propulsion

Unfortunately I'm not at my main computer right now or I'd provide some links related to these topics. I hope I'm not going too off topic for your thread.

>>42131005
Don't forget about the edge waves in theory of diffraction paper :^). Literally the basis of modern stealth tech!

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/AD0733203.pdf

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>>42131005
Definitely not offtopic. Specifically we've talked about synthetic aperture systems and phase conjugation extensively.
Another fascinating vector is time reversal. It's another phenomenon that can be leveraged by 'mundane' engineering and simultaneously provides a practical framework for the yet-unexplained mechanics of time. Also worth noting how water again serves as a transmission medium in experimentation here;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WcIejZd__w

What piques my interest as it relates to the ancient traditions and Progenitor theory is how most of these optical/acoustic phenomena can be interpreted by human senses. Humans being sensitive to relativistic behavior and light polarization is certainly relevant to our ability to interface with the planetary/cosmic EM systems that establish resonances like the Schumann, orbits, magnetic reconnection, etc.
One example of this is how humans can determine the temperature of water just by listening to the sound of it flowing. This mystery compounds when you look at water's many bizarre features; it seems to store information about the geometry of the containers it's been in, it retains properties of a solution even after the solute is removed, and it retains structural changes across phase changes.
A lot of these ideas are summated under 'water memory' but it's also worth mentioning Luc Montagnier's theory of DNA teleportation which relies on the interaction between DNA and water molecules to accomplish transmission of data between DNA structures.

>>42128288
Thanks for sharing anon.

bump

>>42130931
>btfos everything
Lol

>>42119363
Midwit moment.

>>42080617
societies used to work until they got infested by jews, it has been like this since 6000 years

>>42130931
>The "experts" practiced bloodletting. They said gorillas were cryptids. They said heavier than air flight was impossible. They said the Pyramids were built by slaves. They said plate tectonics is pseudoscience.
Every single one of those is true, though.
The only reason you think any of them arent is because soience has brainwashed you.

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>>42080617
Why did ancient humanity fall?

>>42139331
Yes “the experts” did say shit and then other people showed up with fucking EVIDENCE, and experiments PROVING that expert position was wrong
Where is YOUR fucking evidance? Where is your fucking “findings”?
Why should ANYONE believe your nonsense? You keep saying “hurr durr evidance was provided” but I seen your other thread, nothing but gibberish and literal pseudoscience
How about YOU provide something tangible, instead of bashing the ENTIRETY of academia for once?

>>42080617
The thumbnail of this thread looks like a cracked transaxle case

>>42139604
>replies to wrong person
>gets emotional
>categorically refuses any argument as 'pseudoscience'
Like I said, if your mind is made up neither of us have anything to gain from trying to change your views.

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>>42139354
The fact we have a conveyance of tradition means they didn't entirely fail. They did apparently decline as a result of cataclysmic events around 9-15,000 years ago.
We are the same civilization grappling with ascendancy.

>>42140513
Nigga
If your “idea” remains an IDEA, but PRESENTED as a science, IT IS A PSUEDOSCIENCE
That’s the problem.
You guys make some shit up, present literally zero evidance, and then go insane when no one gives a fuck about your “esoteric knowledge”
If you have evidance of something, then it would be literally science
It’s that easy!
>>42140972
>all is the same type of bullshit buildings
You know your damn ass that we would have tons of evidance of past societies BESIDE FUCKING buildings, if what you are presenting is true

>>42086881
Based

My 2nd favorite part of these threads is the 1 guy with 30iq throwing a tantrum in all caps

bumpo

>>42080617
U stole my story faggot.