>>42239400
Not buddhism

>>42239409
says who? you, then what are your knowledge perceived or real based on?

>>42239400
Dreamtime

>>42239425
Buddhism grew out of Hinduism directly. Buddha was a historical person who very demonstrably did not exist as "the earliest religion". What you're saying is insane and makes no sense. If you made this OP and maligned Hinduism as "not the oldest religion" (which it generally is held to be, in one sense) but then wanted to promote Buddhism as older, then it's absolutely fucking ridiculous. Comically so. Buddha was well known to have been born as a Hindi (or, more specifically, into the Vedic traditions which are indistinguishable from Hinduism in many ways).

>>42239425
>>42239454
PS, you have various types of shamanism in the world before Hinduism, but not really any cohesive cogent "religion". The Vedic traditions, which fundamentally means Hinduism basically, were the first one historically.

>>42239459
>>42239454
>>42239425
Also "surviving religion" is what people generally say about Hinduism. A distinction I probably should point out. Many forms of "polytheism" existed all over the world prior to that one. But no one practices those or in many cases have even very complete records.

>>42239454
thats not what i believe. i believe there are transient religions, such as the abrahamic ones, and then theres eternal religions, such as the hindu dharma, and buddhism. hinduism wasnt just something that grew in the woods of northern india. its an eternal path to god, the supreme spirit. it existed millions of aeons ago, and will always exist in future aeons of eternity. gnosticism ties in because its the revelation of christ the godman, plus hinduism, which is the same religion as gnosticism but with the addition of the godman, realized yogi, christ. i think the question is just, is buddhism really eternal, or did it start at one point in time however far back we may go with that. your.. theories lead nowehere and i have personally abandoned such worldly ideas. islam might be onto something too.

>>42239400
>no wiki bullshit
So you dont want the real answer of animism?
Then fine - just choose whichever religion says it has always existed.

>>42239425
>>42239454
>>42239459
>>42239469
Also 1 more point to all of this: If you want to go back to the world's oldest "non-surviving" religions, like Mesopotamian things, it's moot because Hinduism grew out of mixtures of (most of) those religions themselves.

>>42239472
You can "believe" what you want, but the facts are that Hinduism is the world's oldest surviving religion, and that it grew, directly, out of mixtures of most of the polytheistic religions which predated it.

Therefore, people usually refer to Hinduism as "the world's oldest religion". It's not a wrong moniker in any sense, and Buddhism grew out of it not the other way around, no matter what you believe.

>>42239473
every religion says that or at least their god or whatever has always existed. are you an animist? if not, then why do you waste your time you already know i do not believe and will never again believe the official wiki version. no offense. what even is this? we have records of past buddha before shakyamuni and that dude lived like ten thousand years ago i think.

>>42239400
Moon

>>42239480
this is getting insulting. believe? yes, but these are facts, everyone in india and other dharmic parts of the world knows this. your theories are western, they are christian. maybe you are a christian thats ok but if not youre just believing stuff christians made up way before your time lol bro.

>>42239400
It's The Vedic religion. Not getting into jeet larp as they don't belong to the religion(for theyve simply accepted the vedic gods instead of being born into the vedic race), and this is not coming as some nazi white(Yamnaya offspring by rape) larp either, I'm Vedic aryan, enemy of the Zoroastrian aryan who reside in Iran for they worship asuras and we worship devas.
Vedas are apaurusheya. It is not conceived, it isn't debated, it is not of human origin but by the Brahman. Hence the religion itself is that of the Brahman and by the Him through the Aryans and by the Aryans to the rest of the world.
Buddhism is simply denial of the Brahmin (bodily claimed race not the Godly entity itself) influence on this Apaurusheya and taking its control back to the Ariyans, who are Kshatriyas, and by the Ariyans to the Sangha(rest of the world)

>>42239483
explain further

>>42239490
i see this is a good post. what do you think how far does this go back in your view? it started with the arya race? like five or six thousand years ago? and what is apurusheya? non spirit? purusha meaning spirit afaik.

>>42239487
Yeah you can "believe" what you want, but there are facts. Your assertion which appears to be that Buddhism was somehow older than Hinduism, unironically is the dumbest fucking thing imaginable when Buddha was born a Hindu. You fucking retard.

If you had said "Well, Mesopotamian polytheism was probably older than every other polytheism, and did not influence Hinduism very much," then you might at least have a valid point. But I'd still it's pretty dumb, because in practice everyone would have to recognize Mesopotamian polytheism probably influenced Hinduism a lot, which itself is a mixture of previous polytheistic meshes (Most notable Indo European ones).

You are just a dumbshit. You just suck.

>>42239501
>>42239487
Also, yeah, I insulted you. Yeah. I did. Yeah. Yeah I insult you.

>>42239501
this sounds pretty insulting, i believe your material atheism has led you to believe actions have no consequence and there is no such thing as sin or vice. but you are dead wrong and after death, i think you will see that. not implying youre hellbound or something but i think when you die a lot will be revealed to you from your standpoint, your knowledge of reality seems very slim. just relax and think. why does this insult come? what is so strange about someone saying what every single buddhist actually (lmao) believes, that buddhism is an e-ternal religion? does aeternum buddhum just not sit right with you if someone who isnt asian or indian says it?

>>42239482
>every religion says that
Exactly.
>are you an animist?
No, I just recognize it as the only answer to oldest religion, unless you go with religious claims of eternality.
> you already know i do not believe
Why waste your time asking if you already know you wont accept real answers?
Why are you so mad that 2+2 equals 4?

>>42239497
>i see this is a good post.
Then why not read it?
> it started with the arya race? like five or six thousand years ago?
>It is not conceived, it isn't debated, it is not of human origin but by the Brahman.
Learn to read.

>>42239520
its not real real answers. you see, the european paradigm we are operating in, doesnt first of all tolerate dissent as we see in these answwrs given here and secondly postulates a fictious worldview. animism? no animism is definitely not the oldest religion because its not even a religion theres no such thing as animism lol. wtf? nobody came up historically and said yup today imma gonna found animism. lol dude cmon.

>>42239517
I insult you because you're a bad person. You're batshit fucking insane. You're telling me you believe completely irrational things, which are demonstrably-counterfactual. Then you're sitting there telling me "ur an atheist" out of nowhere. When you have absolutely no fucking concept of what my religions / spiritual views are. But you would rationally presume they're not "atheistic" if I'm here on /x/. You're a moron. You're a piece of shit. You're a bad person.

Samsara forever for you. Dumbshit. You will be forever within Samsara.

>>42239529
>doesnt first of all tolerate dissent
Says the person who just posted about how they refuse to accept evidence that contradicts belief.
>nobody came up historically and said yup today imma gonna found animism
Animism is a religion, not a doctrine or an organization.
The oldest one.

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>>42239400
Shamanism.
>No but
Still shamanism

>>42239529
People fucking call you dumb, because you write things which are expressly counterfactual and irrational. Then you're sitting there being like "wah wah, muh European paradigm we are operating within is oppressing me". And I want you to know I'm not even a /pol/ poster or fascist. But, rather, a complete fucking utter tolerant leftist communist. But you are just one horrendous piece of shit, and that's why everyone hates you. Because you're fucking horrible.

>>42239527
ok then, but do you think the ancient sages who compiled the vedas they received from the brahman spirit if you can call him spirit or if not correct me please, would say, follow only the vedas and nothing that came after the vedas? do you follow the upanishads for example? why not also follow the hindu religion? not implying anything, just interested.

>>42239547
>follow only the vedas and nothing that came after the vedas?
The Vedas are infinite and eternal. What came after the Vedas IS the Vedas. The Vedas are much larger in the higher realms, as well.
What was presented to hgumans is only what they can take at the time,place, and circumstance.
ALL mysticism and religion on this earth is a reflection and fragment of the Eternal Vedas.

>>42239532
this is getting very dark for my taste but ok. what are your spiritual beliefs then, if you have some, share please, im interested in every human soul deeply and regret having made you mad i deeply apologize. also well why is it insane, you yourself believe in reincarnation, so its very possible as you must conclude that buddha lived many eons ago and received oral transmission from at least dozens or hundreds or however maby buddhas before him no? its not far fetched at all i mo.

>>42239549
do you mean to say you read and follow smirti and so on tantra or whatever else, or like i mean in textual terms we can talk about these spiritual ideas for ages but i mean textual terms. what are your texts, personally?

>>42239553
I'm not religious, or unreligious. I'm a functional normal person who hears voices and other people's thoughts, and astral projects. So I know there's another world out there, and I've met many egregores claiming to be religious figures, or from time to time telling me I'm even a religious figure, but I just don't let any of it go to my head. Maybe you should try the same.

Buddhism is fine, especially as far as religions go, but you're just fucking dumb. Why are you so submissive? What are you like a child? Or from somewhere outside of America? Most people here are Americans and we're not given to being nice to eachother. So just STFU and stop being such a dumb nice person.

>>42239558
>or like i mean in textual terms
So now we learn more about you, and why you have such a hard time understanding.
Writing things down was introduced when humanity lost it's mental ability.
If you only care about what is written, you arent caring at all about what is oldest.

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>>42239400
the vagina
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MPHyR92MQic

>>42239536
says who? who exactly first authored this idea huh? do some research on your sources bro. it didnt come from god, supreme spirit, nor did it come from oral transmission spanning back multiple universal time cycles. so.

>>42239563
PS to anyone reading this thread. Imagine if you weren't an American, and lived in whereever this person >>42239553 is from. And whenever you were walking around being a mad, obnoxious, aggressive American, these people were just like "oh, I am sorry sir, I am sorry sir, why are you mad at me?! Please do not be mad at me?!" Imagine how nice that would be. I imagine life outside of America must be so much nicer than for anyone who fucking lives here.

"Ur dumb, ur a bad person, I hate u!"

"Oh, I'm sorry sir. I'm so sorry, sir! Please, let me make it up to you! Sorry sir! I will try to be better, sir! Sorry, sir!"

LMFAO. Not your normal conversation on the internet.

>>42239564
then explain some more maybe i can learn. i think you believe in the universal cycles? if no correct me. did the vedas get revealed to rishis before the creation of this or any universe? how old are the vedas, existant before time?

>>42239575
>says who?
Other people than you. Who cares? Why does who said it matters?
>it didnt come from god
Of course it did.

>>42239588
>then explain some more
Why?
This thread is about the oldest religion. You've had a lot of answers and you've already said you'll just pick what you want no matter what the facts are.
Why would I go into explaining my beliefs to you?

>>42239585
>>42239577
>>42239563
>>42239553
Also, to answer your dumbshit more directly: "If Buddha lived prior to being the Buddha, it would not fucking matter, because the religion of "Buddhism" still only began after he was born 2500 years ago.(if I remember right).

>>42239592
im talking about the idea that animism is a real religion or that it was somehow something people actually produced. dude. its the idea of some european historian from the nineteenth or even twentieth century. it has no basis. there is no animism. if you dare explain to me even what this animism is. i dare you bro.

>>42239600
an·i·mism
/ˈanəˌmizəm/
noun
1.
the attribution of a soul to plants, inanimate objects, and natural phenomena.
2.
the belief in a supernatural power that organizes and animates the material universe.
"a village steeped in ancient animism and rituals"

Wow, that was really hard, huh? (note: it was not).

Why is everything you say so dumb? Then why do you act like a submissive woman who just got cut off in traffic whenever people point out how fucking dumb your posts are?

>>42239600
>the idea that animism is a real religion
Show me anywhere that does not define animism as a religion.

>>42239595
i have my own beliefs just as you have yours. theyre not very precise in everything but they exist. if you are so kind, the best thing for i guess dharma would be i think if we just continue the conversation, and see which ideas can i pick up for myself. and if you can learn anything from me as well even better. i hole you go on with the talk, i would really like to hear the opinions you hold. i said i dont accept the contemporary western ideas postulated on here quite often. if you as a vedic aryan as you say want to share your beliefs, im very eager to hear it, if not well then i guess thats a little rude but whatever bro.

>>42239609
I dont have much interest in sharing with you, based on your ambition with this thread.
The guy that said he was vedic aryan just meant he was white, and thus all good traits, and he is a fool.

>>42239596
>>42239596
you didnt get i think what i mean. if buddha lived ten billion years ago and founded buddhism in that time period and in that realm wherever it was, then that makes buddhism older than any religion that simply came to exist even ten thousand let alone two or one and a half thousand years ago. right, isnt it?
anyhow id like to hear some stuff for example what do you believe about god and spirituality?

>>42239609
Keep in mind, the reason why you are eliciting so much hostility in this thread is because you came here with demonstrably false views which are the total inverse of reality (ie, Buddhism is an older religion than Hinduism, even though it's provably not, and Buddha was born a Hindu), then when people point out how fucking dumb your posts are, you will just be like "this is muh European paradigms of thought oppressing me,"

>>42239613
Yeah, if Buddha lived 10 billion years ago, and then founded Buddhism 10 billion years ago, then Buddhism would be 10 billion years old. But that's not what happened, you fucking idiot. Buddha was born roughly 2,500 years ago, and that's when he founded this religion. Therefore it's only 2,500 years old you fucking moron.

>>42239607
>>42239608
this isnt real nobody believes just that and says its his religion and this has just never existed. religion in my opinion is just not just something that you think, its practice, oral transmission, and ritual. not just dude i think that rock has a soul its my religion nobody ever did that now seriously hahaha. thats all im saying the idea that a simple idea is your religion, this concept doesnt exist beyond further back than around maybe two hundred years. i think the nineteenth century generally also saw the beginnings of pagan larping which this board is infested with, the idea that an idea can be your religion, and nothing else substantially.

>>42239625
1 - there are still people practicing animism today.
2 - even if no one was still praticing animism, it was still a real religion

>>42239625
It "isn't real"? Yes, it is real as a spiritual belief. Yes. Demonstrably. Provably. It is a real spiritual belief. Whether it's correct, or not, is another matter entirely.

In terms of whether or not "it qualifies as a religion", I don't even see it as anything other than a moot point in this discussion. There are polytheistic systems which clearly predate your Buddha. And even predate Hinduism. But as I wrote above, they do not presently have followings + they basically meshed together to make what we presently view as "Hinduism". Mostly.

>>42239615
i get the point. however, the idea that european thought formations are at base of all this anti buddhism keep in mind all buddhists or at least mahayana idk about theravada buddhists believe this, this is established order in all buddhist coubtries dude i dont get how im preaching new doctrines. if you are angered by me, if you traveled to any buddhist country that takes buddhism seriously you would simply get the same response as i made.

>>42239641
THE FACT THAT BUDDHISM WAS FOUNDED 2,500 YEARS AGO BY "THE BUDDHA", A MAN WHO WAS BORN INTO VEDIC (HINDU) TRADITIONS 2,500 YEARS AGO, IS NOT A "EUROPEAN THOUGHT FORMATION". IT IS A BLATANT, UNMISTAKABLE FACT, YOU INSUFFERABLE FUCK.

AND PEOPLE DO NOT OPPOSE BUDDHISM JUST BECAUSE THEY OPPOSE YOUR FUCKING DUMB INSUFFERABLE POSTS.

>>42239647
>>42239641
>THE FACT THAT BUDDHISM WAS FOUNDED 2,500 YEARS AGO BY "THE BUDDHA", A MAN WHO WAS BORN INTO VEDIC (HINDU) TRADITIONS 2,500 YEARS AGO, IS NOT A "EUROPEAN THOUGHT FORMATION". IT IS A BLATANT, UNMISTAKABLE FACT, YOU INSUFFERABLE FUCK.
>AND PEOPLE DO NOT OPPOSE BUDDHISM JUST BECAUSE THEY OPPOSE YOUR FUCKING DUMB INSUFFERABLE POSTS.
PS, if your shit is insufferable for me, probably /pol/'s only genuine leftist, or communist, then I'm sure other people here, who get very touchy about their white race and culture wars, are having even worse reactions to what you're posting. You motherfucker.

"European thought formations". Just facts. Fucking these motherfuckers.

I am God fuck you

>>42239631
nooo. religion is a cultural term, it doesnt mean the same to every culture. what we see as religion is not animism, or at least not to my conception of religion idk where youre from or whatever you believe about the world so no implication intended. i guess america, you would i guess not see the difference if you dont dig this stuff deeper but animism is not religion in the same sense that christianity, judaism, even buddhism for example is. animism is i think if youd ask those dudes just dude were worshipping but they dont have most likely a word for the same type of worshipping so something like.. we just bow to the trees. if you want to call that a religion ok man but i dont regard bowing to trees, exclusively, maybe worshipping a sky god supreme spirit together with the trees, thats not religion in my personal sense, a religion has in this time period at least one book or at least something written down, and if not then it has oral transmission i assume these animists have no mystical teaching so the oral transmission will be just stuff about the spirits and that. but to return to the idea, well animism doesnt count as a religion if we speak english thats what i mean. religion.. is an english word. animism as well.

>>42239679
STOP! You just did a EUROPEAN THOUGHT FORMATION. You will only receive this one warning. If you do any more EUROPEAN THOUGHT FORMATIONS you will be directly taken to euro JAIL. You will not pass "Go". You will not collect 200 dollars in govt subsidized section 8 rent.

Just doing my part here to stop all EUROPEAN THOUGHT FORMATION committers.

For real, though. OP is awful, but still not even near as annoying as your typical /pol/ fascist.

>>42239679
>religion is a cultural term, it doesnt mean the same to every culture.
Then you cannot say that anything is or isnt a religion. Only that you refuse to accept it as such.
>animism is not religion in the same sense that...
Correct. It is older, and not doctrinal or singularly organized.
>but they dont have most likely a word for
Your ignorance does not change anything.
>a religion has in this time period at least one book
Then your answer was Hinduism.
>oral transmission
We're back to animism.
>i assume these animists have no mystical teaching
That's retarded.

What do you mean by oldest? The oldest religion in history or the oldest religion to survive until the modern day?

>>42239722
history means written down. i mean before time perhaps, or at least as far back as you can go. i made it clear in the op that five thousand years is still far far too young.

>I want it before things were written down
>but it has to have a book

It has no name because it has been stomped on by various forms of imperialism for millennia. You could call it animism. Shinto is an echo of it. Australian abos are probably the purest representation. Hopi, etc.

thus far we have discusswd that the vedas are directly taught by the brhmn. i knew this before. sadly no new info thus far has been obtained :(

>>42239751
good this is at least something. what was the first period this religion let us call it that was practiced?

>>42239732
Retard, what you're saying is "my religion is the oldest just because it's mine". Not trying to put words in your mouth, this is just demonstrably what your points amount to.

Why? Because everybody believes their religion is "the real one".

Therefore, everyone believes it was established before every other one. Even when that's demonstrably not true.

In the case of the dumbfuck christians, for example, they often even will go so far as to tell you that the world is only 10,000 years old and just deny the entirety of everything which happened prior. I've heard Christians telling people "dinosaur bones were put in the ground by God, as a way to test people's faith against liberal bullshit tricks of science". What you're doing in this thread is just the Buddhism version of that and it's (almost) as fucking annoying.

>>42239758
>good this is at least something.
Yeah. Animism.

>>42239732
You seem to have misunderstood the question. Is the oldest religion by your definition living or dead?

>>42239758
Who knows.

>>42239770
OP is the Buddhist version of a Christian fundamentalist who tells people "the world is 10,000 years old, and the creation myth is totally literal".

He's just the Buddhist version of that. OP's level of being asinine isn't quite on that level because Buddhists are fundamentally not as asinine as Christians. But OP is whatever the other side of that coin is.

And he naturally gravitates towards the dumbest IDpol whenever he gets in intellectual hot water, too, just like dumb fuckin' christian nationalists always do.

>>42239761
im not really a buddhist at least not at this moment. i havent learned what i wanted, about spirituality mainly which is my main focus. the only guy talking with me seriously was the vedic guy, but i think i cannot believe in the ideas he postulated. so buddhism, from my own understanding at least, apart from whatever spirituality there exists in the world, religiously seems to be very old if not the oldest organized religion if we talk about time periods before gautama buddha. but im not religious, so. not a buddhist.

>>42239785
You're such a slimy bitch, too. You really are just like christian nationalists and fascists on /pol/, too. Immediately just trying to shapeshift out of whatever label is put on you. Labels which clearly apply aptly. But you just have to whine about it, and try to fight people about it, and try to pretend you don't really qualify for that label. Just like the professional propagandists on /pol/.

Go fuck yourself, you disgusting slimeball. Yes you are a buddhist.

>>42239770
living or it could be dead at this moment or not this fact doesnt matter.

>>42239801
>>42239785
You people are always like "no, I'm not [x thing that you clearly, indisputably are]" just because you think that will make you "win the discussion" or some other pathetic dumb bullshit. No, you fuck. You're a Buddhist who has literally been spending your entire night in this thread promoting every manner of unfactual point possible in order to rationalize some unfactual fantasy about "buddhism being the world's oldest religion"

>>42239490
>nazi white(Yamnaya offspring by rape
Yamnaya just genocided their way through Europe. Indians are rape offspring, Europeans are pure aryans

>>42239785
>religiously seems to be very old if not the oldest
Despite the fact that in the origin of Buddhism itself, it says Hinduism was already an established thing that had to be refuted.

>>42239823
im talking about the eons prior to gautama buddhas life.

>>42239826
What evidence do you have of a written text of Buddhism before Buddhism?

>>42239835
there is no evidence i do not claim such a thing.

>>42239843
Well then how do you know your fictional hyper-ancient Buddhism is the first? How do you know there was a hyper-ancient Hinduism before it?

>>42239884
or no no i recant, i think the buddha dhamma is in its own respect very powerful and there can be no comparison between buddha dhamma and other spiritual teachings. desu i fugired buddha could punish me for saying the stuff above, i guess i am really some kind of buddhist haha.

>>42239862
i believe hyper ancient buddhism is not the first. i believe its primordial that it has existed at the beginning of time but the true religion is prior to time, vairocana is said to be the primordial buddha. the true religion is present with god since time immemorial and even before time wheel was started. so, buddhism is the second oldest. and hinduism isnt even in the question because its clearly man made to a large extent.

I think Op should search in petroglyph to find the beginning of an answer

>>42239940
The true religion present with God is Hinduism.

>>42239400
the original vedic religion before the zoroastrian reforms

>>42239400
Boats and Hoes

>>42239400
If by consulting the lived human experience, the greatest need of higher understanding would come at the most desperate, helplessly mortal moment.
Perhaps at a time of starvation, darkness and under threat of cold, predators and aimlessness.
Fire resolves all of these, so I believe the oldest religion would be fire worship.

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>>42239400
Big bitches.

>shamanism
Actually the word "shaman" is a specific thing indigenous to a specific culture. I forget the name of it, but it was appropriated and now used as a label for just "primitive indigenous spiritual practices" in general, which is really doesn't represent at all. It's a very specific practice by a specific group that only existed in a specific time and place.

>animism
This is probably the closest thing to an actual answer to OP's question, but animism is not actually a "religion", it is an umbrella term for classifying the particular form of worship and spirituality that most homo sapiens practiced early on in our evolutionary history. There are many forms of animism, and many native religions that evolved out of animism retained some aspects of it.

>Hinduism
Possibly the oldest official, formal "religion" on the planet, perhaps Zorostrianism comes close. Egyptian religion is also incredibly ancient and goes back to the dawn of recorded history, along with "pagan" religions of the northern europeans before they were dismantled by the Christian Romans.

>Wicca
Wicca is not the same as 'witchcraft' and witchcraft is not a religion, the same way animism is not a religion. Witchcraft is just a bundle of folk practices and mostly oral traditions (think witch's nursery rhymes) because most people didn't really know how to read or write. They were basically schizos that people didn't like who were ostracized by society and seen as devil worshipers. Most of them were women because women were seen as inherently suceptible to the influence of Satan and prone to wickedness by nature. Women with physical deformities or any form of neurodivergence were believed to be possessed or having been punished for someone in their family being in league with satan somehow.

People were incredibly superstitious, you have to understand this. "Religion" was always less important than these native belief structures and was often just paid lip service to avoid being punished.

>>42239400
Truth. Peace.

>>42239400
Animism
Alternatively >>42239483 and not in an islam way
Looking at things and appreciating them to the point you personify them or recognize their individual spirit is the earliest form of worship

>>42239536
Animism is not a "religion" in the Western sense, and describing it in Western terms as being the doctrine "everything has souls" is besides the point.
The pre-agricultural animistic peoples had no concept of a separation between the natural and human world because they didn't experience it - such a separation is the consequence of the literal separation of farm from wilderness. Their relationships with the nonhuman world were as omnipresent as their relationships with each other. The purpose of animistic spiritualities was to elucidate the significance of and deepen these relationships.
This video is a great example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=826HMLoiE_o
The hunter is successful because of his ability to empathize with the animal, to feel its soul, and after killing it he performs a ritual of gratitude and reference. The purpose of that ritual is to deepen the connection.

>>42242800
This is a radically different perspective than what is described in the first chapter of Genesis:
>Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
>...God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
>Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Even so-called "atheistic" beliefs have inherited Abrahamic human supremacism.

>>42242770
>Looking at things and appreciating them to the point you personify them or recognize their individual spirit is the earliest form of worship
BINGO.

>>42242761
Only sane post in this thread, the rest of these posts are just pajeets yelling about their dumb religion.

>>42242761
The word shaman itself comes from a Russian borrowing of a term from North Asia. It got adopted as a general term for practices around the world that are similar in concept and function, so it's one of those things that anthropologists both love and hate, because the term "shamanism" in its categorical usage is useful but it also requires the use of a specific cultural term to describe things from outside that culture which make us go "mneeeehhhhhh" and then kind of shrug, because we like to be specific but also understand that everyone else doesn't want to learn new sets of terms from every different culture for relatively similar things.
Anyway, shamanism as a category could be argued to be not a "religion", but frankly I think this thread is hopeless because "religion" itself doesn't have a useful and complete definition. When an academic writes "shamanism" (or at least in the last 50-100 years or so, no idea what they are teaching undergrads today) it usually refers to a process of communion with a spirit or spirit world that exists alongside our own. Anthropologically speaking, shaminism is a practice that involves the production of some sort of altered state, either through the use of psychoactive substances, or through some sort of prolonged ritual process, or both. The stereotype is prolonged ritual singing, chanting, drumming, etc in order to produce an altered state of mind in participants. The mind sufficiently altered, the participant (either the shaman himself or whoever has come to him for aid) is now able to act as a conduit for the invoked spirits.
This kind of practice is often medical, which surprises some people. The shaman (categorical term) is often a sort of doctor who treats both what we would consider mental health problems and physical diseases through contact with the spirit world.
Whether that is a "religion" is something I'm not going to bother arguing for or against. I am however going to make another post...

>>42239400
The original activity that was degraded into religion was scientific learning about higher dimensions. This the the oldest religion.

>>42243020
(Continuing my autism rant)
So anyway, shamanism requires the practitioner to inhabit a world where spirits exist and can be made safe contact with, and they have powers of some kind that we otherwise cannot access. If one defines religion as a set of beliefs then shamanism isn't one, shamanism is a set of practices that take certain beliefs as being true. Shamanic practices is usually embedded in the wider belief systems of the societies in which they are found, but they could in theory be compatible with a wide variety of belief systems.
There is room in many religions practiced around the world for contact with other powers facilitated by altered states. I wouldn't call Christian ascetics or rosary prayers shamans, but I can see a logical through line. I'm under the impression transcendental experience is explicitly the purpose of many practices, like Sufi whirling. The spirits engaged with by shamanic medical practice are typically smaller in scope than Allah, but the pattern of altering one's mind through ritual practice in order to open it up to spiritual forces is not exactly niche. Of course, Zar cultists are typically muslim, and as such the possessing entities must be framed as negative, but the zar exorcism/adorcism cycle seems to be a therapeutic one.

Of course the issue is that defining shamanism as religious practice or not depends on what constitutes religious practice. Dionysus worship definitely had elements of ecstatic possession practice, and we generally consider that to have been a religion because Dionysus was considered a deity. I know there's lots of varieties of charismatics and pentecostals but I'm pretty sure at least some of them believe that the holy spirit will enter in to you to heal you as part of an ecstatic ritual process. They would definitely frame that as part of their Christian faith even though it pretty strongly coheres to shamanic practices, the only real difference is the identity of the spirit involved.

>>42239400
The history of humans goes back much farther than most want to admit the the vast majority of that history is lost.

>>42242800
>Animism is not a "religion" in the Western sense
It's the west that demands such categorizations in the first place. Neither is Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, or early Abrahamism.

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>>42243149
>I know there's lots of varieties of charismatics and pentecostals but I'm pretty sure at least some of them believe that the holy spirit will enter in to you to heal you as part of an ecstatic ritual process. They would definitely frame that as part of their Christian faith even though it pretty strongly coheres to shamanic practices, the only real difference is the identity of the spirit involved.
There's also the ones who rant in gibberish and think it's the holy spirit enabling them to "speak in tongues," and the wackiest of all are the nutjobs who play with snakes.

>>42239400
Its literally Shamanism. Read Eliade

>>42239490
>Vedas are apaurusheya
This one line shows you are larping. The rig vedic poets themselves say how craftily they place each word in the metres to build the rik. And the whole apaurusheya thing appeared first in the samkhya era I believe when people had not only moved on from vedas but even large scale yajna rituals . They had no real understanding of the meaning of vedas and wanted to use it strictly for rituals thus labelled it apaurusheya.
So quit larping true aryan and finish your school.

>>42239472
You are arguing in a way that you can never be proven wrong. You are not putting any boundaries over your reasoning just open ended things with your position just conveniently guarded.
Buddhism as it was practiced since it's beginning is filled with refutations and such of the vedic brahmanism. Buddha never says he learned his path but says he built it himself. Reincarnation, eternal stuff all of it follows the event that buddha started Buddhism so that very event has to fix the timeline rest of it is just larp if you are looking about historicity.

>>42239553
You're a retard lol

People have been meditating and stuff and having realizations about the universe before Buddha. Many religious practices very similar to those found in Buddhism existed for aeons before Buddha even started his first incantation on earth.

Buddhism was founded after the Buddhas death

>>42239613
Holy shit dude you're dangerously retarded. Like I understand what you're asking but no that's retarded. Entities in other realms have been meditating and having realizations about the nature of reality for aeons, thus does not mean that they are not practicing Buddhists or Hindus. Even if it's under a different world. What these entities practice is not earthly religion. Hindusim and Buddhism were created for humans to connect to the higher.

Please consider more time mediating

>>42239785
Yeah we can tell you're not well learned