I know this is a broad question. Do you feel as if spiritual development can occur through purely mental and intellectual means or must you also engage in tangible/physical trials. What path or school of thought do you follow and what steps have you taken to advance yourself, and what are your thoughts on the question?
>>42299293it's all you. it all matters
>>42299293The physical trials play a huge role, one needs to get to a point where he realizes that the outward world is a projection of the inward world and vice versa, the nature around you dictates your own ingrained qualities.People often try to create a false dichotomy between the physical and the spiritual out of pure ignorance or because of some malicious intents."As above so below" is a saying which portrays how the astral influences the carnal.To advance yourself you need to get hurt by life and to generate trauma, which in turn will make you wiser.Avoiding the easy choices and choosing the path of pain is essential, because this is when new neuron connections form
>>42299293The physical guides the spiritual and the spiritual guides the physical. To know the external is to know within, and to know within is to make it shareable. The line gets drawn at what can and cannot be received. Spiritual experiences, through foundation and narrative, through ritual and practice, can be shared. Not all physical experiences can, but the two can be related. Thus, for many the primary goal in spiritual development is to understand the physical through the spiritual. This endeavor brought us logic, science, and religion collectively. It also means understanding one's own body, one's own mind, and one's own circumstances. The seasons are upon us regardless if we heed them, and the wise do. These seasons are literal, but also figurative within our own lives in both flesh and purpose.
>>42299401What exactly would you recommend someone do? Also do you follow any specific tradition or path? What would you say are the most crucial steps both physically and mentally?
>>42299414You should try to build a life with someone and to form a connection, which would enable you to reflect on your own nature through the trials which will be presented by the relationship.See how your love for the person will manifest and in what ways it will change you.No matter if you want to be spiritually, mentally or physically oriented, first and foremost you must find someone who will be able to act as mirror of your actions and will be able to open your heart and to test you
finally a good thread. its been days.It's all part of the path towards wisdom and spiritual growth, even if you blunder and fail. There is no individual path or "school of thought", merely "the path", meaning the general movement towards wisdom and greater spiritual maturity. For some a physical trial is the required condition necessary for physical growth, maturity, and greater awareness. For others its just a hard time. You won't know exactly what it was all for until you've passed it, though sometimes a wise man can hint you in on whats going on. As for the question "What steps should be taken to make men wise" then the answer is some amount of physical training and time spent in the wilderness, for the purpose of making a man in balance with the natural world and for making a steady body and mind.
>>42299492>you must find someoneHermit here. That's a path, just not the path. Devotion is the source of what you are gesturing toward. It brings external accountability / respect, even for someone living in solitude.
>>42299512I see, would you care to share what your experience has been? I understand the basic premise of what you are saying but I would like to know what are some concrete steps I can take to pursue this, what is some activity or action that I should undergo? Concepts I should understand?
>>42299515Yes, you could say that i was speaking of certain devotion to someone, but i didnt present it as the "path" but rather as a trial that will facilitate growthSolitude is decent path, but its also a form of a retreat.You dont allow your light to shine on others, instead you hide it.You dont allow yourself to get hurt by other people, which creates a bubble of conformity.Living in nature as a hermit can being peace and and a sense of security, but dont let it be your endWhen you are ready, try to share your light with others and dont be afraid of getting hurt, because when you get hurt, its a sign that you dont like the reflection in the mirror and that you need to change
>>42299586In the modern day sharing is convenient and takes no personal connection whatsoever. Solitude is no barrier. There is also still pain from others, not just in memory, but in media. There is pain from circumstance, and pain from the lack of connection itself. This can only supply a false sense of ease in the willfully blind. There is a difference between one who retreats to see himself and one who retreats to see less. Some creative work is only possible in solitude, and we should be grateful it can still be shared.
>>42299617Online sharing is a simulated experienced which doesn't generate authenticity, but rather, a sense of conformity akin to what i was talking about.There are billions of hermits today, all of which who interact with the fake light from their screen, being confined to their bubble.Instead of facing a trial that you need to deal with, you can direct the flow of information which would only feed your ego.I dont think that we can find ourselves in this echo chamber, or in solitude itself.The self is found through stress tests and seeing one's limits when you are confined to an unpleasant situation
>>42299575For me, having lived through an extremely uncomfortable and hard experience lasting many months led to a great change in character; in how I see myself, others, and society. It steeled my nerves and mind. Made me aggressive and hard against bad characters. Living through such an experience, the line is blurred between "who must I become to live my own life" and "what fundamental truths were uncovered through this experience". You see, a man could go through great trials in becoming a great farmer, but those trials would be lost to you.The fundamental path is the one found within yourself. It arises from within YOU, meaning the path you should walk is the one being whispered from within. You can and should accept wise counsel, but you are the ultimate arbiter and the ultimate guide on the path towards enlightenment and self mastery. To say "Do X at Y time" is worthless. You will learn exactly what you need to do at the right time. To say "men should spend time in the wilderness and be in physical shape" is general life advice, which is mostly good and right, but not dogma, and can be discarded.Further good general life advice I can give you: when you are lost and confused, it is good to calm the body and mind. Rest, relax, take a long hike, and remove yourself from the world for several hours, away from the human din. In such a condition, you can most easily read into yourself and see where your heart is guiding you.Oh, also read the Tao Te Ching...
>>42299693>The self is found through stress tests >and seeing one's limits when you are >confined to an unpleasant situationThis can happen alone in a room, relating to just about anything. The basis of this fact is the practice we call stoicism. Like I said in my first post though, there are limits to what can be received spiritually. The lessons that require external reckoning, not just in experience but in undeniable account, are what we base the seasons of our lives around, not who we are. The primary exception being those who are stubborn. This it does reveal.
>>42299695Thank you, this is helpful.
>>42299726Alone in that room you are not responsible for anyone except yourself, but when you are responsible for the soul of someone else, it reveals how you would treat God and essentially it portrays your spiritual state.A tree that doesnt produce fruits is dead and a spirit that cannot multiply it's divine spark is also dead.Just like the seasons, once you spring comes you must become part of the ecosystem and to do your part in the foodchain.To reiterate, the trial and the test that matters when it comes to spiritual growth, is how you interact with people and how you influence them, for the spirit is something which involves the collective consciousness, you cannot cultivate it through individualism, likewise you cannot propagate your species without intimate sexual connection, nor can you share ideas without mutual understanding
>>42299810>Alone in that room you are not responsible for anyone except yourselfAlone in that room you can face the consequences of choosing either way and become both more experienced and resolute.>it reveals how you would treat GodSo does the way you treat yourself, for God dwells within believers.>A tree that doesnt produce fruits is dead Trees that happen to use fruits rely largely on mammals and birds to help disperse their offspring. Not having fruit merely describes how that type of tree relates to us.>a spirit that cannot multiply it's divine spark is also deadThis too is not of the self. If the divine spark multiplies and you claim that act as yours, then you are dead to me. Take that for what you will.>you must become part of the ecosystemThis is not our shared history. We have traversed many ecosystems, choosing to deny this fate.>how you interact with people and how you influence themThis is a game we play, not just a moral choice. Often the moral culpability is distributed, and we merely play our roles, none immoral in and of itself. This game perpetuates itself through our competing interests, it uses us, calling is useful and good while we destroy our own foundations.
>>42299944The way you treat yourself is always self centered and it doesnt facilitate spiritual growth.Selfish people are either saboteurs, leeches or outcasts within society and they cannot look further than their own nose...For the birds and mammals to spread the seed of the tree, the tree first must produce fruits.If the tree doesnt produce such fruits, it means that its dead and its only use is to be thrown into the fire for heating purposes.This translates to the idea that you partake in life either through selfless giving love, or get consumed by the fire which devours dead ambitions.You cannot deny your fate either, for the ecosystem is one and the same, its governed by the same principles no matter in which corner of the world you run off to or how you try to reshape reality.Getting destroyed by the game that is being played is part of the process which no one can avoid. Death gives birth to new life, but trying to preserve your own life leads to death.One needs to choose to embrace the self giving sacrificial role if he wishes to be one with God
>>42300063>The way you treat yourself is always self centeredThen why do so many people treat themselves poorly until they consider the burden it puts on others?>it doesnt facilitate spiritual growthThe way you treat yourself has everything to do with spiritual growth. >selfish people are either saboteurs, leeches or outcastsAll people are selfish. You're thinking about external consequences, but the internal are just as important. Treating yourself well puts you in a position to be selfish at the expense of others less often.>that its dead and its only use is to be thrown into the fire for heating purposes.What then of the pine tree? It has no fruit, but if you burn it instead of making tea from the needles you can't save people from scurvy in winter. I hate to be a stickler, but it's kind of my point. The pine tree is not selfish just because it offers uses other than fruit. It still saves lives by living.>its governed by the same principles no matter in which corner of the world you run off toThe ecosystem of downtown NY does not run on the same principles as the ecosystem of the deep Amazon. We draw metaphor when we can, but the concrete jungle has its own rules. We built them.>One needs to choose to embrace the self giving sacrificial role if he wishes to be one with GodFor some, this means being a hermit.
>>42300149People never treat themselves poorly, but rather engage in practices which redirect the pain that was caused by a certain trauma.Alcohol, the internet, transgenderism, suicide and porn are usually coping mechanisms which provide stress relief.While they appear as "abuse" to some, its actually the "salvation" for others.I am aware that most people are different, but there is also the fact the some are more valuable than others, some are better in certain fields than others.Some are doomed to not be able to bear spiritual fruits, because its not ingrained in their nature.As you say, for some people it means that being a hermit is the only path, but this path doesnt mean that its the correct one even if its the only available path. Being forced by the consequences to be a Pine tree is out of ones choice.
>>42300262>People never treat themselves poorly, ... rather ... redirect the pain that was caused by a certain traumaAnxious disorders are not what I'm talking about. Those are often an environmental issue, and that's a larger scope than perception and treatment. Instead, I'm talking about things like negative self talk and and self destructive role selection. The postures we take within ourselves often do not serve the purpose they were intended for, if there was intent behind them in the first place. That's where trauma comes in, but it's not something I've dealt with much myself. Being exceptional, for the good or the ill, is all it takes for a hermit phase to serve God.
>>42299293the meaning of life is not mastery to the masculineit is mastery insomuch that you can gain a house, within which you practice infinite dexterity (usually feminine)you can be happy with a sheet of paper if you have dexterity and infinite mastery
>>42300321The negative self talk probably comes from a place where you dont meet certain expectations that are set upon you, either by others or by yourself.The hermit doesnt have someone else to which he could compare himself and to engage in self reflection together, so instead he uses his own conscience in order to keep himself in check and to punish himself
>>42299414I found fasting for extended periods of time helps in my spiritual development.I'm currently on a 7 day water fast and am now aware of what it was like to be jesus tempted by the devil (the ego) in the desert.It's quite fasinating.
>>42299293I think one can reach the biggest insight and strength when he trains mind, body and spirit as oneThey are not separeted things, but things that work together and within that you strength your "will"I think at any aspect you are doing, be studying or praying you should also be training or doing physical exercise
>>42300362My negative self talk ended around the time my hermit phase began. That's also when I learned the practice of reading spirits. That is, taking the words you read as if spoken by different people/spirits and then holding those perspectives as one coherently. I nearly went mad, so be warned if you take this up as a serious practice yourself, especially using your own writing. My point though, is that beneath the stability of identity we already hold competing perspectives that compare and judge. You, the individual, are always the final arbiter of action, whether or not others can keep you in check. Being a hermit tends to make one even more aware of this.
>>42300440I can be a pretty naughty spirit at times, but i dont tend to haunt people. As i come, soon i also disappear and leave my relationships in a wreck, but in turn i permanently shift the life of my victims in a direction of my making.As for the individual being the arbiter, this couldn't be further than the truth. The individual is governed by the subconscious mind which is like a sponge and absorbs societal, moral and personal constructions, then your conscious mind tries to model a framework based on the given blueprint.Most people have no clue how or why they do the things they do, since half of their instructions are also given by symbolism and subliminal messaging
>>42300497This simply comes down to whether or not the individual wishes to be a gardener. You chose rocks to adorn your spirit's yard.
>>42300497>>42300513If people aren't really the arbiters of their own actions, what moral weight does "choosing the self-giving sacrificial role" actually carry? You can't simultaneously argue for moral transformation through relational trial and that the subconscious calls the shots.I think you're pointing to another sort of sacrifice you chose.
>>42300513The stones that the builders rejected can all be found in my yard. The cornerstones that form the foundations of this world
>>42300563What good are cornerstones when you already have a home in Heaven? The garden we tend lives in the spirit. A rock garden is a yard that brings peace by asking nothing of us to be. We cannot say the same of the trees and their fruit, but their burden is a transaction we can choose to live with. As a hermit, my tolerance is low. My spirit's yard is a desert, but there are succulents still among the stones. I tend to them in my heart, not with actions or words, but with presence. Through them I am transformed.
>>42300364You can only spend 2-3 days without water if I remember.Wtf are you talking about.
>>42300557Well, my first post ITT actually covers this >>42299401The physical actions that you "choose" to partake in are a reflection of how "you" have nourished your subconscious mind.The outside world influences your behaviour through the environment, in turn you seek to fulfill the programmed directives and to achieve unity with the world. There are people, a lot of people, who create alternative realities which contradict the world they were born in.In these realities they choose to worship money or the self and they "choose" it because other malicious actors brainwash them through marketing and education.>>42300619The foundations of Heaven are built upon such stones. Stone tablets encompass eternal Words that echo through time and reshape minds.
>>42300677>The physical actions that you "choose" to partake in are a reflection of how "you" have nourished your subconscious mindWe agree there, but it still brings me back to my earlier point:>This simply comes down to whether or not the individual wishes to be a gardenerThere is a biblical interpretation I'd like you to entertain, given Abel kept animals and Cain kept fields. Abel learned the hard lessons of life by watching animals, and so knew what real sacrifice meant. Cain's subconscious was not given the blueprint that Abel was given, and so God was not pleased with his chosen sacrifice.For this Cain was not punished, but he was also not rewarded like Abel was. It was Cain's reaction to this outcome that led to punishment. Cain wasn't given the blueprint for sacrifice, but he was given the blueprint for family. He just chose to ignore it.>The foundations of Heaven are built upon such stones.No, it is built upon people like you and me. The stones were already accounted for. Trust the blueprint that was given at least.
>>42299293Its all academic navel-gazing and rhetorical posturing unless its backed by action. Those actions demonstrate the nature of the spirit within. Tests and trials are the traditional proving grounds of spiritual development.Steps taken to advance? Got in shape and trained, put armor on, and got busy. How quickly the bullshit (and bullshitters) fade when its go-time.The question excludes initiation, thought that was funny.
>>42300755Abel and Cain are sacrifices which God himself made.He manipulated them into killing eachother, because he wanted to create a certain bloodline which is in contrast of these two, a bloodline which will serve to bring a vessel which will act as the ultimate sacrifice.I see your argument that Cain "chose" to sin even if he was not punished, but in my theology even Adam and Eve were forced to sin.The three of knowledge was purposefully inserted in the garden in order to create the environmental conditions for its consumption, Cain was purposefully rejected because God wanted to create conflict between him and his brother.Our history moves in a certain direction because God is the gardener, not us.
>>42300934Sure, if we only listen to Proverbs 16:9>a man's heart plans his way, but the LORD directs his stepsyou might interpret it that way, but James 1:13-14 states:>Let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted with evil, >and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted >when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
>>42300934>>42300982I don't disagree that God is also a gardener, but when you say "not us" you are ignoring the brother before you as though something is in your eye. There are gardeners here, and there are shepherds as well. You strike me as a gardener, but of course it's up to you, and your purpose could be beyond my imagining.
>>42300911May I ask what exactly your path has been?
>>42300982The book of Job shows the process in details, God and Satan always collaborate in the destruction of someone's life.A person is never harmed unless God wants it to happen.Job was someone who was blessed from the moment of his birth so this enabled him to resist the temporary setback, but when began to get uppity and rebellious, this is when God intertwined in order to not lose his bet against Satan. God is interested in the people which he has personal investment in and he will never let them fall too far, but this doesnt apply to most Romans 9:22–23 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory>>42301021Im flattered that i strike you as the gardener, but im only an employee and follow the directives of my bossI have no will of my own that we can speak of, im a victim to my circumstances like anyone else.
>>42299293If it helps, do it. If it doesnt, abandon it.Gaudiya Vaishnavism has plenty of physical aspects that engages the body in spiritual activity.you can also align the mind such that you utilize all bodily action as spiritual activity.Ultimately, once you reawaken to self and the spiritual, there is no possibility of not using the physical for spiritual activity.
>>42302870Are you that same anon from the NDE thread who said he can't believe in an afterlife because he made a deal with the devil and spooked himself? lol
>>42303084I didnt call it a devil, but an entity and yes, if i experienced the "afterlife" during my NDE then it was terrifying and i would rather that its not like what i experienced.Besides that, any deals that i made are valid only as long as i comply with themThe "deal" holds no value if the contract is not kept
>>42303140I was only lurking in that thread but since we're here...People are often the makers of their own chains. And the source of their suffering.
>>42303258I am not one to shy away from suffering and yes, most suffering is self inflicted and that's because most people like it that way Misery gives a structure, a meaning and a purpose, especially when its delivered in a sacrificial way and its according to your own vision.Hell and pain are not what i was terrified of, i was terrified of the entity and its power over me.
>>42303287>Misery gives a structure, a meaning and a purpose, especially when its delivered in a sacrificial way and its according to your own vision.But is that actually true, or just a fabricated belief system.
>>42303318Truth is fabricated like any belief system
>>42303429The people who craft ideologies label you a useful idiot.
>>42299352/threadEverything below this post can be disregarded.
>>42303465These one liner statements are below my pay grade, gotta give me more to work with.Ideologies are ideas that are spoken into existence, by themselves they are truth and there are people who live it out as their personal truth
>>42303496Very well>by themselves they are truthAn idea is an observation of reality, that which is true. An idea is like a pointer if you understand CS; if not, imagine a finger pointing towards a tree. The finger pointing towards the tree is not the tree itself, exactly how the word "tree" is not the thing itself. Ideologies are ideas or groups of ideas with a great deal of force behind them ie people believe them strongly and change their behavior in accordance to those beliefs. It is true that "all beliefs are true" in the sense that they reside in men's minds and are real in that way. But that in no way changes observable reality. If I say trees have purple leaves, it doesn't change the color of its green leaves.I'm not quite sure how you came upon "truth is fabricated". But it is true that people who believe the truth is fabricated are completely pliable towards any ideology and can become tools for it.
>>42303674Ideas are not necessarily observations of reality, an idea is a mental construct, a thought which was born in your mind and as such it can suggest that all leafs are purple, despite the fact that it doesnt match the observable facts.The idea that all leafs are purple, as you say, exists only on a cognitive level.... Until all of us collectively decide to believe in it and teraform the earth in a way which would match that mental construct.Society, science and labour are based on collective ideas that work towards the fulfillment of a certain egregore.It doesnt really matter if it "exists", because it can be brought into existence once the idea has a Will behind it that shall give it life.It comes down to having faith, a faith that generates works
>>42299293as above, so belowas below, so aboveall physical things reflect in the spiritual and all spiritual things reflect in the physicalyou can not truly develop spiritually without an equal gain in physical development
>>42302870>The book of Job shows the process in detailsThat allegory is about what a person needs to live a good life. The answer at the end is only God. Job was not being punished, he was being made an example, showing that Satan is ultimately powerless against faith in God.You keep looking for ways to not accept responsibility, which is what makes you a rock gardener.
>>42303760>all physical things reflect in the spiritual and all spiritual things reflect in the physicalThoth says as within so without after that sentence. Meaning inside(spiritual) and outside(material) are the same things. Thoth says there is no duality.
>>42304539If there is no duality then there is no cloud.Rather there is duality but we invent its boundaries.
>>42304567As Thoth said its all mind. Inside is mind and outside is mind. And this mind is undivided. He is very clear.
>>42304497You gotta read beyond the first lineI never claimed that Job is being punished, but rather that he is being destroyed with God's approval, regardless of the reasoning behind his destruction God wanted Job to suffer and he appeared at the end ONLY because Job was starting to blaspheme and to question God, so Yahweh didnt want to lose the bet against Satan so he terrified Job even further with his own appearance in order to secure a victory.God causes evil and he actively encourages it because it fits his agenda, which is personal glorification and praise Job was gonna lose his faith if God didnt miraculously appear and restore his wealth, so Satan was actually proven right if God didn't decide to cheat
>>42304588At the very end, God actually rebukes Job’s friends (not Job) for speaking incorrectly about Him. That suggests that, despite Job’s intense questioning, his approach was more honest than their rigid, oversimplified defense of divine justice. To question God's role is to test faith, and we see this rewarded again in the story of doubting Thomas. However, there is a difference between testing faith and turning a blind eye to what God has given you. You assume the agenda of God based on your own desires, not His.
>>42304619>Not JobThat's actually false, lolJob was specifically rebuked as wellJob 38:2Who is this that obscures my plans with words without knowledge?" Here he speaks to Job and Job even replies and repents of his sin to question God
>>42304641Yes, Job questioned what was beyond his place, but see what God said to Job's friends in comparison:>My anger burns against you and your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.Which brings us back to James 1:13-14>Let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted with evil,>and he himself tempts no one. But each person is tempted>when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.The devil tempts us with our own desires. God gives us the strength to resist.
>>42304664He said that regarding his friends because they were not chosen to be vessels of mercy in the same way that Job was.God made it clear that Job has no knowledge and that he is ignorant, same applies to his friends, so its irrelevant what either of them say.God is specifically angry at his friends because they were not chosen to be God's pet.Its as if you have two kids, but you love the young one more than the older, so you act pissy towards the older while you spoil the younger
>>42304709The naughty spirit who reshapes lives and departs, the cornerstones of heaven in his yard, the employee following directives beyond ordinary accountability: these are the compensations of someone who decided early that if he couldn't be the chosen one he would be something more interesting than chosen. Were you perhaps the eldest child?I ask, because you reply was rather more personal than it was biblical.
>>42304731The example is actually not personal.Jacob spoiled the youngest one out of his 12 children, which drove all of them to plot his murder.The bible is summarized with a single sentence: "resentment against those who are chosen by God"God treats his pets favourably and discards the rest, which drives people to rebel against God and to persecute those who are blessed.God creates the conditions for conflict through his game of favouritism. As for me, im the only child so i get all the attention
>>42304789The interpretation was personal, and is in conflict with scripture at large as well as within the example I gave. God was angry because they had "not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." The reason is explicitly stated as the content of their speech, not their status. On the pets and favorites reading of divine loveActs 10:34>God is no respecter of personsDeuteronomy 10:17>For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, >the great God, mighty and awesome, who>shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.Yes, Jacob's favoritism drove the brothers to murderous resentment. But the arc of Joseph's story is precisely about how that resentment gets redeemed through forgiveness and reconciliation. Genesis 50:20>you intended to harm me, but God intended it for good.Joseph doesn't use the favoritism and suffering as a framework for self-exemption. He uses it as a foundation for radical accountability to the brothers who wronged him. That's the opposite of what your account is doing.>As for me, im the only child so i get all the attentionSo you are the eldest of none. Interesting.
>>42304863You are right that their speech was hostile against God, but you dont understand why.They said that he wronged God, when in actuality he was God's favourite pet in the whole world at that specific time period.So the issue is that they persecuted Job when he was actually chosen to be God's poster child. That's why God was furious with them."you intended to harm me, but God intended it for good" Here it portrays exactly what im talking about tho.God causes conflict by generating resentment. He manipulates those who are neglected to lash out, so that he can glorify his vessels of mercy through the tribulations Also i dont think that im doing the opposite of Jacob, i merely explain what is actually going onIf Jacob was like you, he would have said "my brothers were wrong", which is how you treat Job's friends.Whereas i say that Job's friends were used/manipulated by God to act in a certain way because of their lower status than Job, which aligns the story of the 12 brothers too. Their ignorance was used by the cosmic Godly mind in order to achieve a certain historical narrative, where they serve as the persecutors because God chose to neglect them
>>42304962>God's favourite pet in the whole worldDoesn't exist>[God] shows no partiality and accepts no bribesI did just share Deuteronomy 10:17>God causes conflict by generating resentmentThis is something you made up for your personal head cannon. Resentment is a matter of personal desire, of which God claims no dominion. He does not manipulate, He guides. You are again attributing the actions of Satan to God, I assume because God allows Satan to play his games? The very same games He empowers us in and asks us to win for our own sakes not just His.>If Jacob was like you, he would have said "my brothers were wrong", which is how you treat Job's friends.Notice what disappears from the story in your reading. The moment Joseph weeps. The brothers' genuine fear and remorse. The testing Joseph puts them through to see if they've changed. The entire emotional and moral architecture of the reconciliation. All of that requires real agents making real choices. You see only the puppets of God and subconscious.> i dont think that im doing the opposite of JacobThen you haven't thought about it, which is what I've been saying since yesterday. Don't avoid the blueprint you were given.
None. If you're physical in any way, you're an abomination in the eyes of the monad.
>>42305140>implying Jesus was an obimination
>>42305033Deuteronomy 10:17 is concerning justice, not divine election People who do wrong will be punished, but there are people who are born under privileged circumstances, under grace which makes then immune to God's wrath."Resentment is a matter of personal desire, of which God claims no dominion."So did Joseph lie when he said that God intended to use the evil actions of his brothers for good? How do you reconcile with the fact God knows what you will do and that he preplans how to use your actions to his benefit, but at the same time claim that he has no influence over the process? As far as the bible is concerned, the end of the world is already written in the book of revelations, so God knows what each of us will do by the time we get to the end.We as people are only moving through the motions, people like Joseph cried about this because they realize that they are tools of a greater plan and that despite having their ego hurt, one needs to come in terms with his helplessness and to forgive those who walk in ignorance.
>>42305172If Deuteronomy 10:17 is about justice rather than election then it directly undermines the idea that God plays favorites and exempts his pets from accountability. A just God who shows no partiality in judgment is precisely the opposite of the cosmic favoritism machine you're describing.>So did Joseph lie when he said that God intended to use the evil actions of his brothers for good?Only if God didn't actually offer divine guidance to make good of the ill set out by individual desires. He did though, and that was integral to the story.>God knows what you will doOf course, God knows everything I can do. What I choose to do may either be because of or despite of God's guidance, and the paths both ways are accounted for.>he preplans how to use your actions to his benefitHe knows when and how to offer guidance so that things will improve.>he has no influence over the process?We can all simply say no to His guidance, or ignore it entirely. If He has influence it is because we chose to listen.If Joseph understood himself as merely a tool moving through predetermined motions, the weeping and the testing make no sense. You don't test puppets to see if they've genuinely changed or weep over a script executing correctly.
>>42305144i have literally ZERO clue what an obimination is supposed to be lolol
>>42305313use your context clues and you can figure this outi believe in you!
>>42305321i have MUCH more important things to do than solving puckish riddles.
>>42305372
>>42305372>>42305385I can see that. Don't let me get in your way.
>>42305385
>>42305267It doesnt undermine anything.Justice is served because those who are not part of the elect are automatically condemned and they are forced to break the law, whereas the chosen ones are flawless in their wayIf you are born as a vessel of wrath, you cannot escape damnation because God is just and he will deliver you to your doomThe "guidance" which God offers is such where he paves a flawless path for you, or he outright lumps you in the rest of the undesirables on the wide road that leads to damnation.It would be an injustice if a vessel of wrath can find its way to the road that is paved for the elect, so God wont allow that, he will send that vessel to its doom where it belongs There is no Merit, there is only Grace which can be bestowed upon people of his choosing.
>>423054842 Peter 3:9>He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.Everyone, not the elect.1 Timothy 2:4>who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.The Greek word there is panta: all without exception.You contradict God's when speaking of the will of God.
>>42305525The writings of Peter and Paul are not gospel.These are men that used predatory tactics in order to recruit as many people as they can without having any concern for their salvation.Peter was commanded to "kill and eat" and this is what he did.He collectivized wealth through a red terror campaign (acts 5:1-5) and murdered people and took their wealth in order to nourish the belly of his underground church.Jesus said that Peter doesnt know that ways of God and that he is a hindrance to him. Paul was a pharisee and a persecutor of Christians, most likely a spy of the roman empire or the synagogue of Satan.Paul wanted to create a controlled opposition. If you want to know who is saved, look at Jesus's words"Only those who the Father sends to me will follow me""My sheep hear and recognize my voice"
>>42305664>the gospels are not gospelmissed me with that oneTt was one thing when you contradicted verses in an almost Calvinistic way, but this is different. First, the full verse is:>All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. John 10:27 about sheep hearing his voice is about recognition and relationship, not a closed list of predetermined elect.You may feel comfortable electing yourself as the arbiter of what scripture should count, but the comfort of pride is not long lived.
>>42305704My calvinism is actually inspired by Paul's calvinism.When i read Paul, i see a person who knows that he is a vessel of wrath but accepted his fate, at least partially since he was actually resisting by creating the "faith alone" doctrine, since he knew that his works doomed him.Peter is a bit more braindead but bloodthristy, whereas Paul is more manipulative and uses sophism in order to spin the narrative The verse you posted speaks of the same group of people, those who come to him are sent by the Father, not out of their own choice.And no, this was not the verse i had in mind, it was John 6:44, which says: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day"Your interpretation of the sheep hearing the voice is just wrong, its precisely about the elect.
>>42305822Paul didn't build a system that absolved him. He built one where grace was radical precisely because it had to be. The vessel of wrath language in Romans 9 comes from someone who considered himself the primary example. Not a framework for dismissing others but a reckoning with himself.So I must ask, who do you consider to be the elect? I'm going by the new covenant, not the old. That means all who The Father attracts, just as it says in John 6:44 ("draws" comes from ἑλκύσῃ which translates to attract). This is made ever clearer in John 12:32>And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
>>42305877You recognize a tree by it's fruits, which goes back to our earlier discussion.You claimed that some trees are not capable of producing fruits such as the Pine... so the elect are determined by the works which showcase one's capabilities to produce fruits that are worthy for Jesus.Jesus is the random hobo who you meet on the street and you shamefully look away from him, what trees did one produce for Jesus in this case? None.This tree is fruitless and useless and it will be thrown into the fire.The elect are those who realize their inward potential to be the light of the world and are driven to help that hobo on their own expense with no strings attached.Are you "attracted" to help hobos? Good then you are an elect Another reason why Paul&Peter are going to hell is this, they did nothing except to steal money and to spread heresies.No fruits that portray their election, even the supposed miracles dont matter if you are evil.
>>42306040>what trees did one produce for Jesus What fruits*
>>42306040>Are you "attracted" to help hobos?I wasn't attracted to help hobos, and then I was. I was raised in the church and produced no such fruits there. I left, and the world around me pointed toward materialism and mysticism. I chose differently anyway, when the time came to make sacrifices. I chose faith in God, and ever since then I have had those fruits. This is how the new covenant works. We nominate ourselves through faith, and Jesus has already elected us through works.
>>42306130I fantasize about doing it but i dont actually carry it out, my excuse is that i dont own the house, besides im jobless. At best i give them 5 euros and move on. My faith is dead, but i think i have the correct theology, for the most part.
>>42306311I still see a lot of faith in you, I just also see more pride. Not the kind we earn, but the kind we grasp for in self preservation. You could get the theology wrong and still have those fruits and be saved, not by the letter, but by the spirit. This seems more important to you for now though. In some ways I'm grateful too. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. It's been an involved but enjoyable conversation.
>>42299293none
>>42305877John 12:40“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them.”So all people are drawn to him, yet some are purposefully blinded so that they can perish, which against is determined by election.>>42306456>still see a lot of faith in youAwwww thanks, i am enthusiastic about the whole thing but at the same time i dont want to cling to false illusions of salvation.True salvation is portrayed only through works and keeping the law, for Satan also believes in Jesus but that does not matter
>>42306536God does not decide where we turn our gaze, and neither does temptation. God works in the foreground, Satan in its shadows, but we choose where to look and why. Jesus died so no one could turn away fully, but focus is another matter. In the devil's hands our focus is reinforced by the demonic and further taken from us. In God's hands our focus is reinforced by the angelic and further given unto us. These are both cycles we perpetuate with revelation and suffering, but one takes the choices/purpose behind them from us.Tell me, what works did the sinner on the cross beside Jesus perform to have been saved? The only answer is none, unless you count sharing his new faith with Jesus. On that cross he was elected, so that we could all see this, that his spirit might serve God for eternity.
>>42299401I want to have sex with the anime girl you put as the picture to your post.
>>42300497So you manipulate people in a direction you'd find interesting, then leave their lives? That sounds to me like some degree of pure evil. Don't let that seed bloom.
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