To start off the thread I have a question for all kendoka.
Do you think that judges/point scoring is starting to be detrimental to kendo overall?
The reason why I ask this is because many times when talking to my sensei and other senior students the reason they give me to not pursue techniques/guards like nitō or the left kote strike is that many times the judges won’t give you a point because they don’t know how to judge it.
I also read that many waza aren’t used anymore because of this same reason.
Related to this.
To answer an anon from two threads ago, I did try to use hasso/inno no kamae in jigeiko, my conclusions so far is that its effective but restrictive, it’s a good gateway for unconventional attacks because many techniques can be done by advancing at a 45 degree angle instead of straight forward, katate men and do also come out very well but are more difficult to control than normal due to the increased force that the right arm can give.

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Currently doing old school Shotokan karate for empty hands and something else for weapons, but my kouhai is interested in Jap swordsmanship. Trying to help him out on it and possibly visit the dojos to see stuff. There's a Katori Shinto-ryu and a Shinkendo dojo here in our region (both dojos are in different cities). What do you recommend for a beginner in Jap swordsmanship? Already visited the Katori Shinto-ryu dojo and found it interesting, completely alien to our local swordsmanship. A bit expensive tho.

>>205127
There are several branches of KSR,Some considered illegitimate some not (That is a very complicated political conversation) and it can vary in quality from instructor to instructor, However in general, it would interest me a lot more.. Shinkendo, which I only know a little about, is largely based off Nakamura ryu, which comes from the Japanese imperial military style of swordsmanship, which was very much a return to basics style. KSR on the other hand, is one of the most comprehensive and oldest styles, and also covers other weapons.

>>205129
>Some considered illegitimate some not
Looks like I need to look into this. Yeah, maybe I'll do more research on the Katori Shinto-ryu branch we have here, then go to the Shinkendo dojo to check it out. Does Shinkendo do sparring though? I know Katori doesn't since I asked.

>>205135
>Looks like I need to look into this.
Its real complicated. I will try to explain it as best I can. The mainline is headed by a hereditary headmaster, and if a teacher doesn't have a relation with him, they aren't considered legit. To make matters more complicated, there is another line, called the Noda-ha, or Date that has been independent since the Edo period, so that rule does not apply to them. That does not necessarily reflect the teaching quality however, only what their standing is according to the hereditary "rights holder" and those associated with him.
>Does Shinkendo do sparring though?
I cannot say for sure, but what I have read indicates its not a big part of their curriculum. Sparring isn't a standard part of many kenjutsu systems anyway, I wouldn't necessarily take that as proof of quality, but if your friend likes free sparring he might want to look elsewhere.

>kicked from kendo after 3 weeks because I used to do fencing before, so thrusts are second nature to me but in Kendo it's a super risky ultra death move so I'm "disrespecting the sensei's form" every time I throw one
I caught one of the senior instructors with the thrust, shouted tsuki and everything, got a clean thrust and the flag raise, but he immediately ripped his mask off started chewing me and the flag guy out for allowing such blatant disrespect, before kicking me out in private talks an hour later. What the fuck man

>>205588
Sorry to hear that anon, you had a really shitty sensei if things went down this way.
Nobody can be excused such behavior teachers especially.

>>205135
>Yeah, maybe I'll do more research on the Katori Shinto-ryu branch we have here
I'm another anon but can you tell us to whom your dojo is linked?
Right now, the two offical branches are the Sugino dojo of Sugino Yukihiro and the one of Kyoso Shigetoshi ("Otake Shigetoshi").
But then if you care mostly about the level of instruction and not the legitimacy of the official lines, there are still dojo heralded by Otake Nobutoshi (Shigetoshi's older brother... it's a long story) which should be quite competent. And then there's Sugawara and Hatakeyama dojos which are another story but at least we sorta know where they stand. If it's non of these names... it's extra fishy. TSKSR is one of the most copied style because it was one of the first and most notorious available to westerners. But it also means that people tend to say where they come from when it's one of the big names. Some names are totally absent of some countries and very big in others.

>>205604
There is also a Noda-ha line that is considered legit, but my understanding is that they are very small at present and don't publicize themselves much if at all.

>>205604
I really don't know. I haven't looked into it that much aside from going to the dojo and asking around. Even asking if they still do the blood oath.

>>205604
Can you elaborate on the Sugawara and Hatakeyama dojo?
It sounds interesting.

>>205857
Don't trust my sole word.
Hatakeyama Goro was a pupil and close partner of Sugino Yoshio. He helped teaching at Sugino's dojo for a time as shihan. When Sugino died, he went on to do his own thing rather than being strictly tied with Sugino's son (Yukihiro) organisation, he was active mostly in dojos that were administered by former pupils of himself and Sugino, back in the 80s and 90s. Style wise, he was of course very close to Sugino, though there are some differences in terms of presentation and rhythm. Dojo close to the "hatakeyama line" (no such things, but you get it) aren't officially connected to the soke for the most part. It doesn't say anything about their proefficiency. Goro Hatakeyama passed away in 2009.

Sugawara was a pupil of Otake Risuke who got the license to teach under the Shinbukan banner. Ultimately, he and Otake had a dispute, also his style was diverging more and more from Otake's so he was issued hamon (exclusion). He kept doing his thing though. In the later years, the wounds between him and Otake sorta healed (or so I heard), but then Otake Risuke died not too long ago...
Sugawara's "style" is noted for the emphasis on speed. A fair criticism is to say that this speed prevents proper applications of some techniques. It's close to the Otake presentation still.

All in all, these men were important collaborators and shihan of the main shihans (Sugino and Otake), thus there's naturally value in their teachings, but they aren't mainline per se.

Then there's the situation of Otake Nobutoshi, Otake Risuke eldest son who was also issue hamon but kept the historical Shinbukan dojo and still has many dojo "loyal" to him over his younger brother, the official representative.

Koryu in the end, are political entities as much as martial arts traditions.

>>205859
Quite interesting.
I’m part of a dojo affiliated with Hatakeyama’s legacy (my sensei studied under him directly).
I have to say, it’s really interesting to read about tsksr, be it about political or technical stuff, I managed to get a hold on a copy of one of Sugino books, I look forward to read it.
The one that I would gladly have but can’t find is Otake’s manuals, they seem very well put together.
I have a doubt, I feel that kenjutsu at least in my experience, lacks a bit in terms of fighting spirit, it’s mainly coming from a kendoka point of view so it might be skewed because I’m used to the feel of shiai, but I rarely feel the appropriate pressure and tension of combat when doing kata with other students, only my sensei and a couple of other very senior students really make me feel like I’m fighting.
I don’t understand if it’s either a lack of dedication on their side or just that kenjutsu in itself doesn’t really foster/require a strong spirit like kendo.

>>205865
>I’m part of a dojo affiliated with Hatakeyama’s legacy (my sensei studied under him directly).
Arf, talk to him then! My own teacher studied in Japan under Sugino Yoshio and Hatakeyama too.

I've both Sugino's Budo Kyohan and Otake's Deity and the Sword. They are very different beasts. As the name implies, Sugino's is useful to a martial artist as a memorandum, it's a practical book, but if you haven't been taught the techniques, you'll miss a lot. Otake's is more of a "pretty book" (nothing denigrating here, it's a very common feature for martial arts publications through the ages), superbly illustrated, there's lots of interesting historical and philosophical bits, also it's much more recent. They are both very good books if you are practicing TSKSR, but for different reasons. I used to have Otake's older kenjutsu manual, it's much more detailed than the second edition, but it's not as didactic as Sugino's, certainly on design. It obscures a lot of things on purpose so I think the second edition might be more honest so to speak, plus it's in color!

If you read french, enter "otake kenjutsu marseille" in google, you'll find pdf of the iaijutsu and kenjutsu book... (but you'll have to manually enter parts 2-3 and 4)

cont.

>>205865
>>205871
cont.

I haven't done kendo, but I think I can imagine what you mean. I think this is the exact same pattern that went in the late Edo era, where people wanted to supplement kata-geiko with another form of training, though kata are great to transmit techniques and teachings. In our days then, I think it was Nakamura Taisaburo who said it best, basically, we have to remember that the last time Japan wanted to revitalize its kenjutsu techniques, it lead to mass murders in China, there absolutely is a direct connection. It's no wonder that there's zero incentive to go down that path again, in Japan at least. Also, many people appropriately would turn to Kendo for that. Several Koryu, especially such like Jikishinkage-ryu or Itto-ryu often advise people to do kenjutsu and kendo together.

I think the people who do kenjutsu and koryu simply don't do it with the spirit and intent of actually fighting (just my opinion), thus this "fighting spirit" is less pronounced and commonplace than in kendo where it's very much the point to develop such spirit, even though it's with mock fighting. It's a tautological statement sure, but then...
I've had the "chance" to be introduced to TSKSR by a guy who absolutely had an aggressive fighting spirit. Doing kata with him meant being on a spring, ir order not to catch a thrust to the legs or a quick bonk on the head. He'd happily crash into me if I was too soft in my blows, making my bokken fly through the room, etc... But I also had people who weren't exactly "going through the motions" but certainly who weren't "fighting" as well.

It also has to do with the times. Koryu aren't practical arts for a start. At the same time they can be quite demanding in terms of orthodoxy to the principles. It's not easy to be dedicated to such weird traditions. I do think most don't foster, by themselves, straightforward fighting spirit, still, it can be used to have it awaken in some people. I know it somehow did it for me.

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>>204987
holy shit this is a real general?

>>205871
>>205872
Thanks for the info anon I’ll have a look.
I feel like that throughout the ages we lost something in kenjutsu teachings, I know that it has always been, traditionally speaking, kata only and that the introduction of sparring came about when kendo (at least it’s inception) and the fukuro shinai where invented.
However o think that we lost some part of the formal training.
We do practice cuts and movement on its own, and our sensei always tells us that kata should be broken down between the guards.
But something feels missing.

>>205939
>>205872
Kata easily devolve into soulless repetition of minimal martial value, and pretty much everyone recognizes that as one of the pitfalls of the training method. It was certainly an issue in the Edo era after the wars stopped and most duels were banned. Before that most teachers had actual combat experience. As for lost things, most of my seniors know how to turn on the pressure you're talking about, but below a certain level the skill is rare, its something that has to be developed, intentionally in my opinion, and if you are never encouraged to develop it, you probably never will, unless you got it somewhere else first.

>>205939
Fukuro shinai were invented in the middle of the 16th century, shiai and kata have always been interconnected. I'd say koryu have always been "losing" something, they are living arts, it's simply changing. Samurai in the 17th century were already lamenting that things weren't as it used to be. Koryu's purpose is to change. The meaning and practice of such martial arts absolutely cannot be maintained through the ages, it's already peculiar that they are still practiced desu. In the western world, koryu are really an anomaly if you paired them with our society. You better have some pretty weird persons to seriously engage in koryu practice frankly.

Frankly, that's something you should be discussing with your dojo fellows and your master because you practice in the dojo, not on the net. You should look for meaning with your partners. Do discuss frankly with them about that sense of pressure, how to instill fighting spirit etc.

And you can use the kata for this! What I've used and been taught is for instance, in Kasumi no Tachi, when tori goes: tori - wakitori - hidari do - shissai - men (shissai men for both actually), this is a perfect moment to train aggression and fighting spirit. In this part of the kata, you are supposed to strike your blow with full commitment (since maai protects you) and whoever displace the other... well achieves the technique... I think it helps to have a known, "safe" moment, where you can lash out through a technique.
People don't use kiai enough too... This is a shame because it's a great tool to control and direct aggression, the screaming helps if you go with that.

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>>204987
for archival purposes, the previous thread >>179387

>>204987
Due to a very unfortunate work schedule I can’t attend to keiko regularly, and won’t be able for a while.
As you can imagine my technique is degrading (doesn’t help that kenjutsu is slipping through, especially with how I cut and sometimes even in the footwork) what are some good exercises to do at home to better my kendo?
For conditioning I do at least 100 suburi plus all the standard warm up and on other days do weight training as well.
For precision I place my spare shinai on a stand and try to hit the tsuka.
My sensei told me a training technique that his sensei used to use but I think it’s too early for me to train for tsuki especially at the precision required for that type of training.
Mainly I would like some tips on ways to better my tenouchi and the explosiveness of my legs.
I’ve been also told by him that in his opinion I don’t believe enough in my kendo and that’s costing me a good bit of extra performance however I have no clue how to better this part apart from doing jigeiko and shiai more frequently.
>inb4 ask your sensei
I would if I could

>>207578
What rank if any/how long practicing?

No matter what you do, focus on quality over quantity. Train your stamina/cardio through other means that isn't kendo so you aren't ingraining bad reps into your muscle memory.

When you do practice, film yourself and be critical but fair. Watch youtube videos on the basics, because no matter where you are in skill, everyone goes back to polishing their basics.

>Mainly I would like some tips on ways to better my tenouchi and the explosiveness of my legs.
You mentioned you were hitting the tsuka. Instead of hitting the tsuka, stop your cut right before it hits and try to get as close as you can without hitting it. That will help with relaxing your hands for proper tenouchi.

>explosiveness of my legs
footwork drills, but focus on being quick to reset yourself and having your weight where it needs to be to launch forward without adjusting.

>>207617
>what rank you are/how long have you been practicing?
I don’t have a rank yet, once again work managed to get in the way with impeccable timing, however according to my sensei I’m well within the standard of a first dan, I’ve been doing kendo for two years now.
Although I’m not going as much as I would because I have to commute to another country for work every couple of days (and those days are pretty much work only since I either finish too late or I have to sleep because I wake up too early).
I aim to get something out of my kendo journey, maybe I’ll take a shot at getting in the national team but that all depends on how well and frequently I train as well as, of course, tournament results.

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I'm here. I'm observing.

Is kenjutsu fake?

>>209110
No, why would you think this?

>>209140
Idk I see a bunch of people going around saying they are teaching kenjutsu and it looks fake as fuck. So then you wonder, is it all fake nowadays? Maybe the art has been lost in a sea of fakes?

>>209185
Most people teaching a "kenjutsu" class probably are fake. Actual styles of kenjutsu tend to call themselves by the style name, and have a clear lineage, usually with active ties in Japan.

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For my birthday, my father-in-law has gifted me a tantō. I will eventually get iaido lessons, but I wanted to ask: in the meantime, is it worth to practice with the tantō alone or is its worth tied to the use of the katana and wakizashi? Thanks in advance.

Pic mostly unrelated.

>>209855
Tanto won't be covered by most iaido schools. The tanto is a knife and only certain schools study it, particularly jujutsu schools. Even then they mostly use wooden knives because a sharp tanto would be rather dangerous to practice with.
In any case you can't learn any authentic Japanese martial art online or by yourself. You need to find a teacher.

>>209855
As this anon said >>209858
Instead of iaido you are better off joining a kenjutsu club (read about what style they practice before joining), be warned however, most of the times the shorter weapons (kodachi, tanto, empty hand) techniques are taught at the end of the curriculum so you might need to attend for a long time before learning to use it.
Bottom line is, get a teacher before stabbing yourself or someone else.

>>205588
Your mistake was doing kendo. Your bigger mistake was not playing by "their rules" and playing into the ego politics of the sport.

Theyre continuously being salty other sword arts exist, just go do MOF or HEMA or something.

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>>209858
>>209974

Tantoufag here. Thank you for the recommendations,. I will get into kenjutsu as soon as I can; turns out there are a couple of (apparently) reliable dojos in my area.

Also, I will not flail the sword when untrained and hurt myself or somebody else.

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I have to use my boken as a cane because I did not warm up before training.

Warm up.

>>204987
Is modern kendo becoming too “sporty”?
I recently finished reading sensei Bennet book kendo culture of the sword and I found myself agreeing with what a lot of elder practitioners say.
I can see it in my dojo too, despite having both high dan teachers and a high level of technical skills I can see that there is a blatant disregard in the ways of self cultivation in this discipline despite itself having personal growth as one of its foremost objectives.
What is your take anon and how would you guys address this “problem in modern kendo?
Shiai is important because it’s both a check of skills and a test of mental fortitude however I don’t think this should be the sole purpose of a discipline that is literally called the way of the sword.

>>211255
If you live in a hostile environment, there is no risk for discipline in becoming sporty. In my country we should use bokens instead of gunpowder weapons to solve neighborhood disputes.

Ok, maybe shinai. Bokens can still kill people.
If you live in a civilized society you can fall down the sports rabbit hole and lose your grip on reality.

But then again, we as humans evade violence and disarray because is not an ideal state. We want to practice in controlled environments. It's in our nature.

I practiced. The first week of spring ends today. My body has recovered. I was able to do kirikaeshi with another person.

>>211255
That shit was sporty from the jump, fruitcake.

It always is when you turn a martial art into this......pillow fighting.

Every day I train a little.

>eat
>sleep
>fight another day

>eat
>sleep
>fight another day

>get a little better
>have fun

>eat
>sleep
>fight another day

You should try this see how it goes.
https://youtu.be/Sn9uXABq2t4