>scene has good animation "Forced animation">scene has more animation"Dishonest animation">scene is sentimental"Emotionally manipulative">scene has visual or subtle storytelling"Style over substance">scene has scripts with dense and complicated words"Pretentious, trying too hard"So, according to /a/, the ideal anime has to have simple animation, no touching shots/music, and a straightforward story then?
>>282328047According to /a/ the ideal anime is *the one I like* while everything else is trash.
That sort of behavior is hardly limited to just /a/.
>>282328047Is not about liking something, it's about calling what the other guy likes shit.
>>282328202If anything we were one of the boards infected with that behavior last
>>282328047it insists upon itself
>>282328047Making good art is hard bro. You can be extremely talented and still fall short of greatness and you’re nothing.
>>282328047>making up shit to complain about because you’re too retarded to know what looks goodthread isn’t even worth interacting with
>>282328047>good animationI don't know what anime you're talking about but I already know it has schizophrenic camera swings and a disco ball for lighting.
>>282328047they are right
>>282328234/thread
>>282328047>Forced animationWasted a good amount of frames on something that doesn't matter>Dishonest animationno one says this seriously>Emotionally manipulativeIt didn't lay the groundwork for an emotional scene and preys on the audience's basic human instincts(i.e. a child getting killed)>Style over substanceSelf explanatory>PretentiousOnly scratching the surface of a topic and leaving the rest for the audience to fill in the blanks. Anime is a short medium so it's easy for it to bite off more than it can chew.
>>282328393You sound like you understand but there’s more to it.It all comes down to real life and TRUTH. Good art reveals truth. Good animation is Miyazaki animating human motion with such understanding you’re left baffled!Dishonest animation is a sakuga otaku, grew up watching animation and has no understanding of real life, it’s repulsive.Good characters and scenarios. remind you of real life. And how tragedy unfolds and how we react to it.Emotionally manipulative writing is made by low I.Qs whose only frame of reference is tv shows and movies. They think that if they just make sad events happens, a loved one dies horribly, that that’s good drama.See Kimetsu no Yaiba as a great offender in both these categories.
>>282328393>Wasted a good amount of frames on something that doesn't matterI think that's not necessarily a bad thing.I watched an episode in Fresh Precure that had really good animation not just in the fight scenes but especially noticeable in a scene where it's just the girls walking and talking with each other. It was a great watching experience.But on the other end of the spectrum is in the idolmaster movie where two characters had an awkward interaction and they clearly used rotoscoping to make the movements as fluid as possible but ended up looking very weird and jarring. In this case, yeah. The animation was "forced" and did not at all contribute to the scene.
>>282328517Eh, I think good stories are about the message they want to tell the audience. You don't necessarily need real life for that, but real life is easy to reference and resonate with people.
Anon, we are not a hivemind.Each of those will either be said by 1 same schizo, 1 each from different retards, or something in between, then have a few more guys agreeing with some of all of those statements,but not all of them.Turning a group of people into a single characterization like if all of them are a single person is pretty damn retarded.
>>282328047What were you expecting from this site? Experts talking about the topic? Fans giving their opinions? A deep analysis of the topic at hand?
>>282328286Vampire Hunter D Bloodlines
>>282328047Zoomers can't genuinely enjoy things. It either has to be iROnIc or just non-stop complaining about the most stupid stuff and ironic shitposting.You can still have good discussions in threads about speicific series or some threads with fun ideas, but god forbid entering threads about popular stuff, shounen threads, "muh japs can't into X" etc. This is where all the cancer comes from, all the forced animation native isekai manic pixie cuck tranny DBZ is this yuri this is problematic shit. I have no idea why these people want to waste their time on some retarded shit when they could just do fun things.
>>282328047I just tune out the contrarians. It's easy when they're so lazy
>>282328047Just because you use a lot of frames doesn't make it good. Impact frames, choreography, pacing and angles are required to make it work. And yes animation can be overdone if what's happening on screen doesn't warrant it. If someone next to you never stops moving then that doesn't make them interesting, it just means they got ADHD.
>>282328047anything can be defended or accused because words are treacherous, specially so in an environment with such little demands and low stakes as internet forums. you're better off just discussing the scenes and themes you like and not bothering to defend it from bored retards lest you give them the time of the day, since trying to "prove" a piece of pop culture is "objectively good" or anything like that, as if you were fucking Harold Bloom discussing the classics, is a wild goose chase fit for the insane
>>282328729Quite the opposite. Zoomeds hype everything as the “greatest thing ever!” The GOAT if you will.It’s millenials and GenX who are complaining. They have standards.
>>282328393>i.e. a child getting killedBut I think an anime can have a child getting killed without making it an emotional scene. > Anime is a short medium That's retarded when an anime can be really long as well.
The pentality of man.
>>282328890Not at all. The zoomers you are describing are the ones on social media, the zoomers on 4chan hate absolutely everything.>GenX who are complainingI doubt there any genx left on 4chan.
>>282328971> The zoomers you are describing are the ones on social mediaSo the vast majority of zoomers
>>282328047Style over substance has never been an insult. Style IS better than substance.
>>282328517Dishonest animation was first used back in the day when discussing Nichijou, which takes full advantage of the animation medium to deliver very cartoonish situations, and Hyouka, which I haven't watched in a long time.
>>282328981Op was obviously talking about 4chan and this board is filled with zoomers that thing they are cool because they hate everything.
>>282329007Nichijou fucking sucks. The one instance where calling something dishonest animation is valid.
>>282329031So why do you think the zoomers on 4chan are so negative while everywhere else they are carefree?
>>282328393>>282328517the problem is that the retards on /a/ overuse those terms whenever they don't like an anime to the point that they've lost all meaning. i am sure that you can find people saying that ghibili movies have forced animation and shit like that
>>282329007I wouldn’t say Nichijou's animation is dishonest. It’s completely honest about being a shitpost.
>>282329128Because they think 4chan is supposed to be negative and since they probably can't properly express themselves on other sites they have to overdo it here. Also they most likely came here after watching a youtube video that made them think they are supposed to act in a specific way in order to fit in.
>>282328047/a/ only enjoys the 2D equivalent of cocomelon with lolis, they’re all knuckle dragging apes who have never read or watched anything outside of anime and manga
>>282328047It's all retarded 4cuck speak. Any poster below the age of 30 in this retarded shitsite is mexican or SEA
>>282329233What gives man, we’re here to have fun.
>>282328929Exactly
>>282328838No, the issue is that you cannot forced people to feel anything in particular, if someone doesn't vibe with a show there's no way to change that, so when you explain what's good about that person thinks you're lying.
>>282329371>>282328929Obviously anon meant that manipulative writers might use a scene of say a child getting killed cheaply.If a more competent writer uses it and doesn’t go the cheap way of sentimentality, perhaps because he’s trying to make a comment about how cruel war is, children die and it’s no big deal. That’s good and all but doesn’t negate Anon’s point.
>>282329091what the fuck do you even mean by "dishonest"is the animation hiding some intent? trying too hard?
>>282328047>So, according to /a/, the ideal anime has to have simple animation, no touching shots/music, and a straightforward story then?/a/ doesn't watch anime. This isn't a meme, either.
>>282328393>Only scratching the surface of a topic and leaving the rest for the audience to fill in the blanksSo like, any good anime ever made?
>>282329468And that doesn't negate the point of the Op and other people itt. Retards use "Emotionally manipulative" all the fucking time even when it doesn't fit. That anon acts like we are surrounded by honest and intelligent people which is wrong.
>>282329091Such retarded concepts are valid to you because you are a bald söyllenial who spent more than a decade on this website
>>282329446I mean it’s all subjective so we might as well stop talking about it.It’s not like there are people who put great effort to improve their art, and try to reach for universal truths.You liking your favourite show regardless of how badly made it is, is the same as me liking my favourite shows that I presume to be very well made.It’s all just subjective. You shouldn’t feel bad about liking “bad” art.If any of us had good judgement to begin with, we wouldn’t be watching Chinese cartoons.
>>282328253
>>282329549Well, the vast vast majority of anime is “emotionally manipulative” and just straight up badly written. So even retards here can stumble on the truth just throwing these criticism around.They are valid, but the retards who are using them don’t quite know why they are valid.But this is a whole different argument.
>>282329567The point is what are we talking for, what do you want to say when you call something shit? For %90 of people here is just a cathartic thing, no one it's trying to understand why something may or may not work, how it could improve or if it actually the thing /is/ good but you just happen to not like it, and if so, why. No, when people argue here all they're trying to do is something more akin to nerd creed and internet points.
>>282329628The vast vast majority majority of all media is badly written that doesn't change the fact that modern /a/ is filled with people throwing buzzwords around, especially when talking about classics.
>>282329673Agreed. I still think emotionally manipulative is a valid term and anyone looking to grow their taste should add it to the repertoire.It should open up the way to better criticism and understanding later on, but baby steps.
>>282329446For the most part, whenever we try to explain why something is "good" we're just raving about ourselves and what we value. In an ideal world, any piece of media could be accurately placed in any of these quadrants I made in 10.000 hours in mspaint. In the real world, we are all subjected to biases, and trying to differ "what we like" from "what we should or should like", based on some abstract quality in the work that exists completely by itself, independently from us, is a waste of time. I am not saying such qualities do not exist, I'm saying that trying to determine them (specially when it comes to something as ephemeral as pop culture) is a waste of time. It is even more wasteful to come up with little treatises to try to explain why someone should or should not like something, since then, even assuming you'd be able to clean your judgement from your personal preferences, you'd also demand from your listener that he put his own biases aside to admit that his taste in vietnamese softcore porn cartoons is trash or something
Durr hurr emotionally hurrdurrptive
>>282329631Damn, so what we gonna do about it? Is there another place on the internet or real life where people are more honest and well-intentioned?
>>282329764Delete the guilty pleasure quadrant. No such thing, I only like what’s good and beautiful.
>>282329631That's the thing that gets me about it all. The impression I get across this entire goddamn website is a bunch of people trying to build their fucking "rep" or whatever as if that matters on an anonymous Tunisian mouse breeding forum. And for some reason the culture has devolved to where you only get upvotes for hating things and the people who like those things. The result is you can't fucking discuss anything anymore in earnest because every thread is just filled to the brim with people seething about the topic at hand and everyone who tries to enjoy it.And it'd be one thing if the criticism was done in a way to foster discussion but its more like you try to talk about anime X and then the entire thread is just people cooldown posting about how X is garbage and also you're a tranny if you like X until the thread dies. More broadly, I think people overall and not just here have lost their ability to comprehend that different people like different things and there anything you can quantify out of that other than the statement itself. But instead people just get really made if someone else likes something they don't which leads to the above situations.
>>282329833yeah me too, but I'm not sure the two of us like exactly the same things. i don't think we can sort this out
>>282329788No. Get real life friends.
>>282329844Pic related is from /v/ but with a few adjustments it would fit /a/ like a glove.
>>282329549Idk about the rest, but the animation meme threads are 99% webms that aren't good.
>>282329844There's 3 types of threads: -Average shitposting thread as describe by you-Ongoing manga/novel speculation -Image dumping because there's really nothing else to talk about
>>282329712"Melodrama" has been used on /a/ as a synonym to that expression as well(if I remember correctly "emotionally manipulative" started getting popular on /a/ back when clannad after story aired). At the end of the day what matters is that you are able to substantiate your opinions which rarely happens on /a/, since it's much easier to make a throwaway post and then wait for all the easy attention.
>>282329866It could be close enough. I mean we are all just approximating the universal truth.. and we are gonna need infinite regressionHere are my top 10:-Nausicca of The Valley of the Wind-Bocchi the Rock-Kaguya-hime-Street Fighter II-Roses of Versailles-End of Evangelion-Sonny Boy-Patlabor 2-Maquia-GunbusterDamn there are so many more.
>>282329371This looks like emotional manipulation
>>282330012You're talking about the constant shitting on Witch Hat Atelier threads?
>>282329955I would generally agree, its mostly a problem with trying to discuss things that aren't currently airing though I'd argue increasingly often the first one bleeds into the ongoing series discussion too, especially if on of the (seemingly multiplying with every day) local autists decides he's offended by whatever the topic at hand is and decides it's now his mission to disallow any discussion of the topic.
>>282329866Add me to the equation so you can sort it out like this:MY taste>>>>>>>shit>>>>>>Your taste
>>282329628>majority of anime wants viewer to feel somethingWow
>>282330034It's ok, he later gets bandaged and he is all fine.
>>282329833I can tell you like slop
>>282330048I've finished watching an anime today and I want to discuss it but I will make the thread in like 5 hours or so when there is more activity. I hope it will go well.
>>282329912That seems to be 90% of the internet these days. India needs its own NK style internet and fuck off.
>>282330012Yes there's plenty of /pol/ bleedthrough too which doesn't help. Don't you want to talk about how [moe anime] is saving the west and [moe anime] is actually jewish subversion for the 99999th time?
>>282330155Ah, the "backlash over universal appraise" bunch.
>>282329764>whenever we try to explain why something is "good" we're just raving about ourselves and what we value. In an ideal world, any piece of media could be accurately placed in any of these quadrants I don't understand why you think this is a bad thing. I WANT THAT. I want to discuss with someone that has totally different tastes. If I wanted to discuss with someone that has the same tastes as me I would talk with a mirror. Isn't this the cool thing about our world? That we are not exact copies of each other?
>>282330182There is a lot of that but we definitely have our own locally homegrown grass fed insane people too. Though the local ones are less motivated by /pol/ shit and are more just generally insane.
>>282330212There’s a fine line between someone having different taste and everyone just having random taste, because they have random experiences that shape their views.We need to agree on somethings, we need to agree that something are better than others. And somethings are just trash.Not all values and opinions are equally good.
>>282329542Ping Pong the Animation is about competitive sports and I think it just about covers every facet of it in a short 11 episodes.
>>282330212I don't think it's a bad thing. Never said it was. What I mean is that to act as if it weren't the case (or: act as if we could always dissociate our impressions and biases towards a piece of media from the object itself) is a massive pretense, which is why I hardly ever post in "X is objectively bad" or "X is objectively good" threads and stick to discussing the (admittedly) dumb shit I dig with like-minded anons. At the end of the day I don't anime shouldn't be a serious hobby even if I do put a lot of time into it
>>282330212The issue is that they want to END the discussion, is not just "here's why I got from this" is that whenever anyone answer their post instead of engaging with the responds they double down and start shitposting instead, because addressing the arguments may actually mean they're wrong. They don't want to discuss, they want to be rigth.
>>282330284I don't disagree that there is some objectivity to the quality of the components that make an anime but I would not like to take the subjective part out of the discussion. I find it fascinating when passionate people discuss their love for an anime, especially for specific parts that I would have probably not given that much attention even if I don't hold any strong opinion regarding the series/movie.
>>282330437Yeah, interacting with such individuals is annoying.
>>282328047Who is this /a/ person? What does he look like?
>>282330421>which is why I hardly ever post in "X is objectively bad" or "X is objectively good"thiiiiiiiis. got kind of bored on such threads, i am more interested in talking and asking questions about the anime itself especially the story, themes and characterization rather than discussion number 463734823848 about animu being good or bad(which often turn into a circlejerk).
>>282330284>We need to agree on somethings, we need to agree that something are better than others.No, we definitely don't.
>>282330576Then what difference is there between talking to a mad man, an idiot or someone who knows their stuff.You might as well talk about anime with ChatGPT.Agree of you want, disagree if you want. Feel free to disregard fundamental, evident truths, I don’t care.
>>282330666>>282330284The issue is who gets to decide what opinion is "the good one", but I presume in this case it's you.
The fundamental, evident truth is that what I like is factually good.
>>282328047Inferno Cop is /a/'s ideal anime.
>>282330742No since Triggerschizo stalks the board.
>>282330721We don’t have to decide. But I am expecting some honest pursuit and some intelligence from you, some honest attempt at finding the good, and the true. And you should expect the same from me.But I wholeheartedly believe that if we both are searching for the truth. We’ll agree on somethings, a lot of things.
>>282328047>"Forced animation"Forced animation is when the studio tries to over animated scenes to the point that it is distracting. It's not always bad an example of good forced animation is in Nichijou and Konosuba it's best used for punchline or exclamation points. It's when it is just casually done that it can get annoying. Idolm@ster and Gurren Lagann is an example of it done right in the final episodes.>"Dishonest animation"Studio dumped the whole animation budget in the first 3 episodes and for trailer shots.>"Emotionally manipulative"The scene was obviously manipulative and took me out of it.>"Style over substance"Studio Trigger.>"Pretentious, trying too hard"KyoAni
>>282330813Here's the deal with types like you, you have a very narrow idea of what "good", "truth" or "beauty" is and are never open to consider anything outside of that valuable. I like B horror movies, so what's good and works for me it's probably very far from what you like.
>>282331067Suicide Club is a masterpiece, that’s my answer to that statement.
>>282330731You don't know what you like yet. I have to tell you.
>>282330666>Feel free to disregard fundamental, evident truthsThis sounds like a mentally-ill pseud.I might agree to something, but I don't expect that everyone else will agree to the exact same thing as me. One Piece is slop-is it better than FMA? If I'm being honest FMA is not good either. It's barely-disguised shonenslop and not much better than One Piece. However, my opinion diverges from funnyschizo who thinks 2003 is good and people who like the sequel. There's a diversity of opinions to be had here and I think that's a good thing.
>>282331049>Gurren Lagann is an example of it done right in the final episodes.The 15th episode of GL was the one with the most frames, not the last one.
>>282330813Aren't you the fag that worships everything ghibili? Your taste is not good by default.
>>282331315Not by default. Pom Poko is very boring, and Miyazaki really ruined Porco Rosso by making the MC a blatant self-insert.But yes, most of Studio Ghibli is in the upper echelon of anime. Nausicca and Kiki are two of my all time favourites.
>>282331049Trigger shows are very substantive but /a/ doesn't like to talk about it because it would make them question their own life choices.
>>282331415I like Kiki a lot but especially if you are the same guy who posted >>282328517 then you are dumb. A lot of ghibli movies are pretty shit, especially the newer ones.
>>282331540What do you like?
>>282331049>"Style over substance">"Pretentious, trying too hard">SHAFTFTFY
>>282331694nothing
>>282328178/thread
>>282328517>Good animation is Miyazaki animating human motion with such understanding you’re left baffled!Good animation can be a lot of thing. Some of Yuasa's projects like Ping Pong or Mind Game also have very interesting animation while exaggerating human motion in a very cartoonish way. >Dishonest animation is a sakuga otaku, grew up watching animation and has no understanding of real life, it’s repulsive.Demon slayer has pretty bad animation but the animation director is a guy that has been working on anime since the late 90s and he worked on the Cowboy Bebop movie which looked great. Anime is an industry filled with old people, there is barely any new blood and a lot of the shittier spazzy 2020s action anime that look so disgusting are still made by people that have been in this industry for at least 2 decades, and those usually have an understanding of real life. You should blame the audiences changing not the producers. If you want to see how anime made by actual young adults looks like watch some indie anime.
>>282328047Please give actual concrete examples of where you think the critics for each specific point you make are wrong. Which scene has "good" animation that people you don't lik- sorry...critics say has "forced" animation"?
>>282328047Forced animation is very real. It's when a scene has animation quality far beyond what it needs, or far beyond what the rest of the show has. It feels forced because you get tonal whiplash from the quality in the context it's done in. For example a show that has mostly still frames with barely moving mouths that has a sudden action scene that is rotating in 3D all over the place feels forced. But in an action show where that's happening all the time, a similar scene would not feel out of place. In the same vein, doing extremely detailed and realistic animation for something mundane like walking, getting out of a chair, etc. feels forced especially when that same quality isn't reflected in all other mundane acts in the animation. Ghibli movies have a lot of scenes that in a vacuum you might think are "forced animation" but then they make the entire animation the same consistent quality so it fits fine and doesn't feel forced. On the other hand, a random hyper animated walking scene in an otherwise static show feels forced.
>>282335685Not op but if you check the archives it will lead you to >>282329007. That's the start of "forced animation" being used as a buzzword on /a/.
>>282335704>It feels forced because you get tonal whiplash from the quality in the context it's done in. For example a show that has mostly still frames with barely moving mouths that has a sudden action sceneDo you consider the Kanbaru fight in Bakemonogatari as "forced animation"?
>>282328047understand first that /a/ doesn't actually watch anime, everything follows then
>>282329091explain how>The one instance where calling something dishonest animation is valid.follow from>Nichijou fucking sucks
>>282335672Yutaka Nakamura basically started this bullshit but most of the animators doing it are very young.You can follow older animators like Norio Wakamoto, Okiura and they are not doing this spazzy shit.Of course it’s much more complex than that, and there’s no age limit to who can do spazzy bad animatiom, and who does good animation.Old blood mixes woth young blood on projects and you don’t know who’s doing what.But general rules hold, the industry ever since the 90s is getting filled with more and more young blood, among them otaku who grew up watching anime and who want to copy anime.Let me throw in couple more words that makes me look knowledgeable, I blame webgen animators for starting this bbullshit, not only Nakamura.
>>282336393>But general rules hold, the industry ever since the 90s is getting filled with more and more young bloodanimators are getting older by mean age
>>282336712I find that hard to belive. But anyway when we talk spazzy animation, Vincent Chansard and the like. They are mostly young people who grew up watching anime.But like I said the roots of this goo back to webgen, and even earlier first gen otakus who grew up watching and being excited for Kanada animation.
>>282336393>most of the animators doing it are very young.Which ones? >Of course it’s much more complex than that, and there’s no age limit to who can do spazzy bad animatiom, and who does good animationI agree. >Norio WakamotoThe guy that plays Vicious? Are you perhaps talking about Norio Matsumoto?>the industry ever since the 90s is getting filled with more and more young bloodWith this I disagree when referring to the modern times. A lot of japanese young adults don't seem to be interested in animation as a job. > among them otaku who grew up watching anime and who want to copy anime.And I don't think this is bad in general(also I am pretty sure the 80s were filled with guys that were fans of 50/60s animation). It's ok to copy anime if you also have other frames of references, it's not that black and white. Anyways my last point still stands if you want to see animation that is not done for an audience.
>>282336886It’s basically just thishttps://youtu.be/dg-qaeIcuyI
>>282336886> Which ones? Look up any of your favourite spazzy scenes with godawful direction that the sakuugatards worship and you can find the names.Vincent Chansard, Nagata Hiroto, Weilin Zhang. To name a fewYeah, I meant Matsumoto. Last I saw he was doing human animation with Ghibli and Shinkai
>>282337227>Look up any of your favourite spazzy scenes with godawful directionI don't have any favorite like that and I don't care about "sakuugatards ", the only forum I use is 4chan. >Weilin ZhangThis one is indeed pretty young. I still remember reading that people between the age of 20-30 in japan are way less interested in wageslave animation compared to the previous generations. >Last I saw he was doing human animation with Ghibli and ShinkaiYeah, he also worked on Inu-Ou recently.
>>282337227Norio Matsumoto is one of the animation directors on Shinkai's next sci-fi film. Okiura too. It'll be announced in December.
>>282337009The same video says that plenty of new filmmakers have done great movie which applies here as well.
