I've noticed that there's a cultural divide between Americans and Japanese audiences, where American audiences really hate when the protagonist is a chosen one and has special powers, they'd prefer it if the main character was an underdog that beats his enemies through strength and wiles, while Japanese audiences love the special main character. Why is this though, what causes this divide? I'm also genuinely asking, honestly, this isn't some flame war thread.
There's no divide. These are just arbitrary statements made within a specific set of data. There are those that dislike the revelation that Naruto and Sasuke are the same two guys constantly reincarnated, and some that don't care. Underdogs can be just as obnoxious if they are never written as actually learning how to adapt to their opponents, or pulling out a second wind from their ass. All that matters is the execution.
Because despite all evidence to the contrary, Americans still believe in the concept of meritocracyThey're gullible sheep
>>282475302What are you talking about, western audiences are complete suckers for the "MUH CHOSEN ONE" trope as well. You are just more exposed to criticisms of this particular trope because you only browse western forums
>>282475302>American audiences really hate when the protagonist is a chosen onePerhaps someone should've told him that.
>>282476000Americans don't hate the chosen one protag. OP is just a retard talking out of his ass
>>282476026>>282475598Lurk moarIt happens constantly, look at the absolute seething that happened over Luffy especially
>>282476000>>282475598>>282475302>>282475467>>282475448Star Wars and Star Trek have fucking chosen ones. Americans also love King Arthur and Lord of the Rings and a Song of Ice and Fire. They love chosen one shit as much as the Nips. At most they just want you to execute at least okayishly and bit subtly instead of random Isekai man gets to talk to god and gets to be a hero.
>>282476049>dude check this out some media literacy fags on twitter complained about luffy
>>282476119I don't use twitterIt happened here too, the gear 5 reveal sent this place into nuclear overdrive
>>282476134>dude check this out some media literacy fags on /a/ complained about luffy
>>282476087Don't forget the Matrix, Avatar The Last Airbender, Superman and like half of all capeshit superheroes
If you think about it, Christ himself was a "chosen one" protagonist. As was Siddhartha. Both Western and Eastern civilizations are built upon this concept so I find it hard to believe anyone genuinely "hates" it. People might complain about it being overused in media but that's not the same as malicious hate.
>>282476165You're going to say this for any example, recent or ancient, here or anywhere. Retard.
>>282475302The problem isn't the chosen one itself and how it's utilized by the story. In Naruto for example it was used to dump loads of buffs on to Naruto and Sasuke in one single arc, it was terrible powercreep and felt really cheap.
>>282475302I'd say western people just don't like bait and switches which is often combined with poor literacy/interpretation in general. Naruto is a pretty good example because he's a chosen one but absolutely starts off as an underdog who has to clear a set of hurdles before his gifts really kick in, but retards bitch endlessly about muh hard work because the story sometimes shows hard work beating lazy talented people. Stuff like the Luffy discourse is even worse since from the start he was going to be a big deal and the heavens always bent themselves to make him succeed/survive until he became capable
>>282476313That's because cynical jaded fags have always existed, retard.
>>282476189>>282476291>>282476087I think the problem with Naruto and Luffy that some Americans have a problem is that they are the chosen ones among chosen ones in their world.Naruto just doesn't just have a fox and is a son of the fourth Hokage, He's also the reincarnation of Ashura and the descendant of a Alien Goddess queen.Luffy just isn't the son of dragon, grandson of Garp, part of the D clan with a rubber fruit who inherited Roger's Will, No he has a God fruit, Conqueror's Haki, reincarnation of Joy boy .Meanwhile Superman and Goku kept it simple by saying they are aliens?Neo? Some strange creation by the Matrix to reset or something.Anakin? A creation by the Force itself.Harry Potter? A Horcrux accidentally created by Voldemort who is also protected by his mom's love.Naruto and Luffy piled too much of the specialness on.
In Naruto's and Luffy's case they did that because the authors made Madara and Kaido too fucking strong for their part of the story. That's why it feels disingenuous.
>>282476500That's just a side effect of immense powercreep. This is what happens when you start your manga with fisticuffs and end it with planet-shattering nukes. You need your protag to constantly one-up himself.
>>282476347And to prove your point, you make a shitty point in order to make yourself into the example. Great move. Don't reply.
>>282476673I accept your concession
"Run"? What are you talking about?You see how many wolves are in front of me?I am a Three Little Pig. I exterminate Big Bad Wolves!There's no way I'm running away. Not by the hair on my chinny chin chin.
>>282475302Americans exist in a post-ironic culture where "the main character is important" is considered boring. They're writing modern epics and hipsters nitpick because it's not a low stakes story they can relate to.
>>282476500RetcOn Piece is especially preposterous
Normalfags are so absurdly filtered by One Piece it's hilarious
Execution is everything. Its a problem when I can pick an isekai at random and know that he'll get some cheat skill or be the most powerful guy around, he'll beat up an arrogant authority figure, and one or two women will be swooning over his dick within the first episode.
>>282477150Just like me fr fr
>>282476999See >>282476087
>>282476500>Naruto and Luffy piled too much of the specialness on.I hate that we live in a Sex Paths and Nika future, bros
>>282475302The main problem with the "Chosen One" gimmick is that every time, almost every Shounen starts off by leading us to believe the Hero is an ordinary every man who just trained hard and became good at it.Then, at some point, when the manga has gone on long enough, or sometime after the Timeskip, we find out they are the subject of some Prophecy or secret heir to some super special family.Worst offender being Naruto. In Chapter One he sucked at being a Ninja and he sucked at using Chakra, the basis of every Ninja technique. He only managed to overcome this by getting a Clone Technique and drawing on an alternate source of Chakra, if needed.>>282476000People still have problems with the Prequels. It's just that the Sequels are just as bad.
>>282477187Naruto had a giant fox and anyone who wasn't and idiot could tell he was the son of the fourth Hokage. He was never an Everyman unless you were fooling yourself.
>>282475302> more culture ware shitkys faggot
>>282477187what if the chosen one status is based on merit. like a prophecy predicts someone will achieve something of their own strength.
>>282475302Naruto's problem isn't him becoming more and more special, Naruto's problem is the whole idea of being the hokage was that Ninja's take on special secret missions, but those missions became more and more battle focused until the whole ninja village setup became a millitary dictatorship
I don't think western audiences have a problem with chosen one protags. That's in a vast majority of western fiction.However, I do think what Western fans have an issue with is the idea of reincarnations that lead to being a chosen one because that concept is very foreign to Western audiences.
>>282477220He had a giant chakra fox which marked him as an outsider cause no-one wanted to live near a ticking time bomb that almost killed everything, cancelling out any prestige he had as a nepo baby....until they magically forgot about it all and everyone in the Pain arc stuck their head out to defend him.
>>282476500I think I can agree with this. Luffy is a bit of a lost cause, but people were fine with Naruto having the special fox inside him and wanting to be Hokage which everybody knew would happen by the end. It's the stuff stacked on top of that that compounds it into an issue because it basically means the hero will never be in danger since fate assigned all these specific things to the hero.It's like how people are cool with Luke Skywalker being the chosen one, but sort of iffy on Anakin because he had a high powerlevel and even worse on Rey because she's the chosen one AND the granddaugher of the main villain AND the last jedi to bring balance to the Force. It's the stacking. The stacking is what people in the West don't like. This can also be assigned to Ichigo who isn't a reincarnation but basically every aspect of his life was decided at birth so subsequently, every powerup he gets was predetermined to happen
>luffy is from a family of legendary pirates>people are surprised when he's specialIt's like people don't expect protagonists to be special
Also, another issue is that I think even in chosen one narratives in the West, they are 'slightly' better at using the extended cast. Not 'the best', but like, people other than the protagonist can do things and have relevant sub-plots too. Once destiny, reincarnation and fate starts applying to shounen manga, you know nobody else other than the protagonist is doing anything really important
>>282477409Alright, probably beating a dead horse but generally people were cool with Luffy being Garp's grandson and Dragon's son because at the time, there was no indication of genetics having a role in a person's power. The "D" is important but it didn't indicate strength since lots of people have that and aren't strong. Basically coming from a notable family did nothing for Luffy's accomplishments since he was still flying solo with his own power.Once you throw in that he has been using a super special fruit (which I'll point out was canonically said to be a shitty fruit that Luffy made work until we learned otherwise) that may imply he is an incarnation of a Sun God and is practically invincible, it will turn things on its head. You can't go "hurr durr why didn't you expect Luffy would be the most important guy ever" when people spect like 15 years chastizing other shounen for doing the same shit and saying One Piece was different
>>282475302I don’t know why people pretend there’s a difference, putting a nobody in that role of protagonist is like putting makeup on a pig, the role is the same, the only difference is that now you have to stealthily give them all the inevitable plot conveniences of being a MC (that are usually explained by the MC specialness) without making him look special for receiving them, and hope the audience is stupid enough to not notice it.
>>282475302Americans only hate it when the character was shown as self made only for it to be undercut by destiny shit later like how Terry from Batman Beyond was originally just a random kid but later it's revealed he has Bruce's DNA making him his son.
>>282475302>different cultures, religions and societies see various things in a different way>"why??"You can tell that someone from America created this thread.
>>282475302Isn't there whole manga and anime about rejecting destiny though? Isnt Trigun basically that?
>>282476820Why the KidsWB logo?
>>282475302>American audiences would prefer if the main character was an underdog that beats his enemy through strength and wiles>Japanese audiences love the special main characterAnd yet world trigger is beloved by the japanese and barely even exists in the eyes of the west.
>>282476049I haven't really been paying close attention to One Piece, but my impression was that people were mostly upset about Luffy's power being revealed to be something entirely different from what the manga had maintained for hundreds of chapters.
>>282477386>AND the granddaugher of the main villainJust Rey?
>>282477877History's Strongest Disciple is somewhat similar.
>>282475302If Americans wanted more chosen one bullshit they would just rewatch Star Wars prequels.
>>282477877world trigger is boring and it has the opposite problem where often you wonder why the mc is the mc
>>282475302I hate it when it's poorly done and completely go against the message of the series, Naruto was portrayed as a underdog but ended up as ninja Jesus, Luffy had to make due with stupid stretchy powers but as the series went on, it was revealed he was actually from a lineage of strong people and had level 100 in luck, then it was revealed he was pirate Jesus the whole time.Unironically, Hunter x Hunter did the chosen one trope better and wasn't shy about it.
>>282475302yes
>>282475302Americans love chosen ones (so much so that they themselves think they are, see Trollnald Drumpf). What gets criticized is when a character who starts out working hard to achieve something suddenly turns out to be a chosen one.
>>282476000That's not Joseph Campbell
>>282477328Have tou heard of an ugly duckling, you illiterate retard?
>>282477877Because world trigger mc is shit. He’s just a nepobaby
>>282477260>MorrowindAccording to prophecy the Nerevarine will unite the clans, defeat the bad guy, etc. You've done all that so you have the right to call yourself the Nerevarine, and the immortals who knew Lord Nerevar when he was alive will consider you the same person.Don't worry too much about whether reincarnation is real, you've become the person people needed and that's what matters. In fact there've been a bunch of Nerevarine candidates over the years, they all just died before they could fulfill the prophecy all the way.Heck, even that goddess who was into Nerevar goes on about... mantling? That if you grow into the role of Nerevar's reincarnation well enough, you "mantle" his role in the cosmos and it becomes true retroactively.
>>282485210>MantlingWould you like the "Naruto and Sasuke are reincarnations of the warring brothers" bit better if it was stated that they just happened to mirror the brothers' lives so well that it slowly made them into perfect vessels to inherit their spirits?
>>282479738>>282479738Most Naruto fans were even fine when the Uzumaki clan was revealed to be special and that his mother was the previous jinchuuruki. It was the fact he was reincarnated Ninja Abel who was the grandson of an alien super queen that really soured the mood.Same with Luffy. Where most of the Nika legend was told to us in the same arc it was introduced just so he could beat Kaido. His special Lineage and his father and Grandpa being major players in the world were fine beforehand.We hate it when the author does it to justify very quick insane power creep because the author made the antagonists too strong otherwise. That's when it's poorly done.
>>282476500>Harry Potter? A Horcrux accidentally created by Voldemortreally? lmao
>>282476500I think the issue is that it comes out of nowhere. Stuff like Matrix or Star Wars you knew from the beginning that the protagonist was special. However in Naruto, Bleach and One Piece, the protagonist merely had "something special" about them, not being a literal special among special people among even more special people.Luffy just had a devil fruit, ...there is also a prophecy...and a special D clan he belongs to...and special grandfather...and special fruit that is super special even among special fruitsNaruto just had the demon fox...and his father is the strongest guy from the previous generation...and his mother is from a special clan...and he is a literal reincarnation of ninja jesusIchigo just has dormant Shinigami powers, and alot of them...and a hollow....and fullbring...and quincy...and the hollow is a superhollow...
>>282477187>by leading us to believeThis is the audience's problem. You assumed by headcanon that it was a hard work story.>Worst offender being Naruto. This is selective reading. It's stated in the span of two chapters that he was training wrong (it's about training smarter, not harder, when this is done he stops sucking) and that the scroll is difficult to master but he does it easily (goes against him being ordinary).
>>282475302Its the format. Chosen one MCs increase the hype and number of readers for the manga which comes out weekly. Writers do it the get their series more popular and the Japanese audience likes it because it makes a new up and coming series suddenly extremely hype. On the other hand most western audiences are exposed to these series after they gain popularity and get an adaption so to them it’s more like finding out it’s another one of those and they roll their eyes.
bump
>>282475302It's not the Chosen One trope, we love that shit. We specifically hate the "you are only important because your dad was important" trope because it goes against our cultural belief that you can become important from nothing even if it's not true
>>282475302Ok
>>282475302It's not an East vs West thing, it's a generational divide thing. Older mangaka generally embrace the special bloodline trope, millennials tend to subvert it. Sooner or later it'll come back into vogue. OP protagonists are evergreen independent of culture though.
>>282475302Americans value growth over talent and japs have no soul.
>>282475302No idea what you're talking about. America is currently watching the fuck out of One Piece. It's gained immense popularity since Gear 5 happened.
>>282475302Naruto is both though
The Goyim hate knowing that they aren't God's chosen people
>>282495287Most of them are actually both except for Luffy.And surprise OP is the most popular manga ever lmao. Oda just knows people don't actually care that much about training arcs.
>>282476000>tries to warn his audience on the dangers of war and authoritarianism >accidentally raises an audience of authoritarian bootlickers by framing one as the all-important "Chosen One" of his saga oops
>>282475302>I HATE ISEKAIIII>check list sites>tons of isekai filling out the most watched slots>even super high quality anime are losing to isekai with zero budgetbecause americans are fucking liars that posture about what they like
>>282475302Are you saying Americans are against gods chosen?
>>282475302the problem is not the chosen one trope per se but rather the "rugpull" of revealing a character was the chosen one all along once you are deep into the storySpecially if at the beginning of the story a character criticize others for being born better only to later reveal that same character was born the best out of everyone elseAt its core the dislike is for hypocrisy
>>282487691
>>282485622Ichigo was the best written one of the bunch. Isshin being a shinigami was foreshadowed properly, there was some foreshadowing about him being a quincy. He had an entire arc about becoming a fullbringer. The only part I don't like is his hollow side. It would be better if he gained access to his hollow side after Urahara cut his soul chain
>>282476999>hipsters nitpick because it's not a low stakes story they can relate to.Are these the same hipsters who cream their pants over every slice of life romcom that comes out each season?
>>282475302>Neji: Only those born to be hokage ever make it>Naruto: No, i´m the rare case on which effort will be rewarded over inherent talent and being a snowflake, by the way, did i mention i am the son of the previous Hokage, have the nine tails sealed within me and am a reincarnation of the sage that invented ninjutsu! not that any of that matters!!>Neji dies >Naruto: what? no counterpoint? i´m going to fuck your cousin now!
>>282499291>i´m going to fuck your cousin now!To be completely fair, who didn't want to fuck post-timeskip Hinata?
>>282499291Neji being right will never get old
>>282496947again
>>282475302Just posting picrel in case anyone was wondering why there was an uptick on antijapan circlejerk threads.
>>282476000yep pretty much can OP kill himself now? For me? Just for lil ol' me? Please?
>>282499576Neji was spot on how the world worked. There is such thing as destiny. People can never escape their fate.
No, people hate it when a protagonist who originally wasn't a chosen one gets retconned into one
>>282485622>Naruto just had the demon fox...and his father is the strongest guy from the previous generation...and his mother is from a special clan...and he is a literal reincarnation of ninja jesusOnly the last one does anything for Naruto. Naruto didn't inherit his dad's talent or his mom's abilities
>>282475302The worst part about Naruto is the lifelong aspiration of the literal reincarnation of ninja jesus was to become a glorified regional manager.His entire career is just ensuring quotas and deadlines are met to the Daimyo's standard.He should have overthrown the system and unified both ninja villages and civilian nations.
>>282501273I wasn't even aware there were anti-Japan threads but I'm struggling to see what Kirk, Israel, or India have to do with Japan
>>282475302You retards still believe the internet's opinion is always the same as the general population's opinion? Especially when the internet is 90% bots?
>>282479625>boring>while posting OPWhat a lack of self-awareness
I think this has to do with the diffrence in writing style. In western countries you have the classic.protag gets introduced has a goal follows said goal until climax conclusionWhile in asian countries you have a writing style that i forgot the name off but it goes more like Protag introduced Buildup Plot twist Conclusion I think the reason western audience has a negative image with an overpowered protag is because in western storytelling its the lack of power to reach the goal that makes the story. When in asian storytelling its more about the journy itself and how the character deals with situations rather than if they end up meeting the goal.
>>282503334I think the difference is that while Western stories have twists, it is rare there are twist villains that hijack the plot and were behind everything all along. Twists either happen earlier or they happen in such a way where it gives more motivation for existing characters.
>>282503558Damn forgot the image
Neji was gay
>>282491111I assume this is mostly a perfect storm with how the other big Shonen battle manga have ended, the Netflix live action being made, the One Piece anime since Wano looks appealing, and the story being in the final saga which all adds up to it becoming a current big "thing" that people don't want to miss out on. I have a feeling that newer fans are the ones who generally like the Nika/chosen one plotline, where it's older fans who are more critical of it. But a lot of that criticism isn't about Luffy being a chosen one of prophecy, that kind of idea had been foreshadowed at least since Roger was shown wearing a straw hat, but because the simple and charming rubber fruit was retconned out of existence and replaced by a god fruit of destiny, and it wasn't handled very well.
