Would Frieren receive the same acclaim if it were proper high fantasy instead of JRPG-inspired native isekai?
>>282513615nah
Yes since it is
>>282513615>proper high fantasyWhen was the last time Japan even did proper high fantasy?Has there ever been a MAINSTREAM "proper" high fantasy anime that wasn't derived from RPG tropes?Fucking Lodoss War and Slayers are derived from JRPGs and tabletop RPGs..
>>282513615The acclaim is for her feet
>>282514373zeruda no densetsu?
>>282514373Older fantasy anime may have been inspired by jrpgs but they weren't on the nose about it like modern native isekai where stats, menus, and video game mechanics seep into the world
>>282514503Retard alert.
>>282514373https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guin_Saga
>>282514373I would say Dungeon Meshi.
>>282514590The concept of dungeons in fantasy is a literal RPG trope. It's in the fucking name. It's tabletop RPG jargon.
>>282513615I'll admit the video game interface they randomly pulled up at one point ruined my vibe.
>>282514708Is closer to exploring ruins yes, but think something like the Quest for the Holy Grail.
>>282513615I have 'effortless baitposting' fatigue.
>>282514746Yes but it's literally in the name, "Dungeon Meshi"."Dungeon" in this context is literal game jargon.Not a single piece of fantasy media called ancient ruins or mage towers or pirate grottos and similar things "dungeons" until RPGs started doing it in the 70s-80s.Calling your manga "Dungeon Meshi" is like calling your manga "I must reach Floor 100 to beat the Boss!"
>>282514736when?
>>282514783I would say that tried to denied that terms evolve does not make It less of a traditional fantasy setting. People has been using Dungeon instead of Ruins for a while now. Tower Dungeon also feels like a traditional fantasy without gaming elements
>>282514788In the dungeon test
>>282514788This screens they use to map the dungeon than look like modern UI or a video game mini map with no reason other than to clash with the entire aesthetic of the rest of the show and it's magic.
>>282515399thanks for the screenshot. I really do not remember that at all
>>282515399>characters use magic to make a map of the dungeon>clashes with the aesthetic of the show and its magic
I clicked on this thread because I was subconciously hoping someone had posted lewds.
>>282515609And here you are debying its native isekai slop
>>282515626I see what he's talking about. It would look better if it was a drawing on a piece of paper that just appears on it with some magical ink instead of some holographic like projection
>>282515652I am not arguing with you.but you're just using buzz words now
>>282515626>>282515662Indeed, given Frieren's obsession with books and grimoires, the fact that the mapping magic looks like a futuristic video game screen instead of parchment that gradually gets completed it's jarring.
>>282513615Yes and no. The story of Beyond Journey's End is, by its nature, about setting the story AFTER the generic heroes journey fantasy adventure has come to an end. You could make it a more original fantasy world to play around with, but the moment that you create a fantasy world that is TOO original, one whose nature and conflict are not immediately obvious to the viewer within the first five minutes of the first episode with no additional explanation needed, you have failed the assignment. The backstory of the world needs to be simple and generic because the purpose of this is not to tell a grand adventure, its about what happens to the world after the grand adventure is over. So the grand adventure itself has to be simple and easy to digest enough that the audience can easily fill in the blanks with the minimum amount of exposition as to what it was about. That means relying on common knowledge tropes and structures. The more you try to satisfying your autism and make it a "real" high fantasy (even as you misuse that term), the more you risk breaking the foundation on which the entire story is built. Given Frieren's widespread popularity and success, its unlikely that whatever other idea you come up with will do better than Frieren already has. You'd add your personal touch and spoil the dish.
>>282515678Hey there's more than one person in this thread, that's not me
>>282514708So are wizards, anon. If you autisticaly screech at the inclusion of anything that RPGs have done in your fantasy work, you won't have much fantasy left to work with.
>>282513615No, because people go to high fantasy for the sheer scale of events that happen and the sense of wonder and immersion in a fully realized fantasy world, not just in enviroment but history and society, which Frieren lacks. It's much closer to a character-driven adventure story than the epoch defining events that we see in LOTR or Wheel of Time or GoT. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UlWALyXkTDY&pp=ygUVd2luZHMgb2Ygd2ludGVyIHNjZW5yYou'll never get a scene like this in Frieren or most anime "fantasy", but to see armies march to destiny is emblematic of the soul of Fantasy that you will see in all High Fantasy. To that extent, mecha is in many ways the real "high fantasy" equivalent in anime, at least in soul.
>>282515399This one 3 second segment of animation gave Frieren haters the biggest erection of their life, because after 19 episodes of seething that people liked popular thing when they don't like popular thing they finally had an excuse to justify their contrarian opinions and they've made performative outrage over this shot their whole personality ever since.
>>282515795I can't imagine having such narrow tastes that you think that the only reason that anyone reads fantasy is massive battles and armies. How the fuck did you even survive reading LOTR if thats all you care about? The Fellowship of the Ring must have killed you stone dead reading about people walking around and not fighting things for hundreds of pages in a row.
>>282514824The thing is, barring exceptions from maybe the 1970s, nearly all anime fantasy is derived from RPGs, be it tabletop games, early computer RPGs and JRPGs.Lord of the Rings was never popular in Japan.Most classic fantasy literature was never popular in Japan.Most European folk tales that inspired traditional fantasy were never popular in Japan until post-WW2, long after traditional high fantasy was already established.Japanese high fantasy is almost entirely derived from the Tabletop RPG -> Computer RPG -> JRPG pipeline. You're only going to find popular fantasy anime/manga that are exceptions to this rule from before the 1980s.It's why even when Japanese fantasy stories don't include things like statistics, levels, menus and other shit, they still include very "game-y" elements, like calling things dungeons, breaking down character roles into distinct classes and shit, or common monsters in fantasy anime either originating entirely in RPGs, or the anime's depiction of an existing fantasy monster is derived from an RPG's depiction.
>>282515852Not t all, my main complain it's that the entire world map feels the same. Towns are supposed to be located in vastly different regions but I can tell one apart of the other, sans (perhaps) the one with the big wall, because they point out it has a big wall but otherwise looks exactly the same. I want to like it, but if you tell me that the entire story happens in the same location I wouldn't notice the difference despise the "journey" part being an essential theme to the plot.
>>282515755What was it like in the manga?
>>282515904They are not vastly different regions, anon. We are not talking about different continents here. We are talking one region of one continent, that shares a common language and culture. Also, most of these towns we spend less than half an episode in, exploring their nuances and unique local style or quirks or whatever isn't what the story is about and would just be a time-filling distraction.
>>282515961That's a very elegant way to say that the towns are uninspired and blend into each other. Is a fantasy world, with a vastly different story to our own and yet it just looks so bland and generic. I wouldn't find it so important if the journey wasn't in the fucking title calling even more attention to it.,
>The one fantasy manga completely devoid of video game influence>/a/ hates it
>>282516067All because of that one admittedly rancid chapter.
>>282516067There are plenty of fantasy manga that are devoid of video game elements, the majority of battle shonen all fall under the fantasy umbrella. When OP says high fantasy he's referring to more classical or medieval European sword and sorcery type shit. Witch Hat Atelier is a magic school style fantasy like Harry Potter.
>>282516112The one that they try to claim it's about anything other than showing that wizard cop does disproportionate retribution to everyone regardless of crime or age (you know, because he later go and tries to kill kids as well)?
>>282516138Then this one.
>>282515888>I can't imagine having such narrow tastes that you think that the only reason that anyone reads fantasy is massive battles and armies.No it's rather that massive battles and armies are the natural consequence of the scale of events that High Fantasy is about. When the fat e of the entire world is at stake, gods and nations will clash in titanic conflicts.The Fellowship isn't going on same dandy adventure for loot or memories like in some JRPG, they need to bring the Ring to Mordor to destroy it against the encroaching advancement of Sauron's forces. It's hammered down by everyone that war and change is coming, and everything else is built up towards that. The Fellowship's role is an important one, but is it only one to myriad of other players that still need to hold off Sauron amidst their conflicts.
>>282515662Honestly yeah considering they talk about not wasting mana on dumb shit you would think moving ink over paper would be worth doing over making an illusory projection and keeping it up
>>282515900Kinda sad though that JRPGs are often more creative than manga and anime despite requiring more resources.
>>282515931
>>282516295
>>282516208Anon, High Fantasy just means any story not set on Earth or some version of Earth in a fictionalized era. Lord of the Rings is unironically Low Fantasy (set on a place that is supposed to be Earth, because Middle Earth eventually becomes our world in time) and Frieren is High Fantasy.Thats what those terms mean. Not whatever definition you made up.
>>282516295I think it helps that in most Jrpgs/rpgs the explicitly game-y aspects are supposed to be non-diegetic. They're only there for the game to function, and otherwise the story progresses like a normal fantasy story would. When an anime/manga uses game features, they don't actually serve a purpose so only stand out as unnatural.
>>282516303that's a shame
>>282513615It is proper high fantasy. There is no such thing as native isekai.
>>282516404isekai means other world, so "native to another world", which yes, just means fantasy, but if you have a better term for fantasy works that rely on the reading being familiar with jrpgs tropes, conventions and mechanics please share.
>>282516295There's actually good reason for that, and the answer is nonlinear scope. Think of it this way: if you are writing a story with a passive audience, you have one major plot and a handful of subplots. You have a limited amount of time that you can keep the audience engaged, whether that be measured in seconds or pages, and you need to spend that time wisely. Every scene needs to have a purpose, advancing some narrative thread or exploring a character or delivering exposition. The characters and the story HAVE to be the focus, or you are wasting valuable time. This means that side information, not directly related to current events, often has to be cut and as a result the background setting of the world needs to be simplified so as not to be distracting from the story being set in that world. In a video game, like a JRPG, the audience is not a passive audience but an active one. You have a main plot to follow, and you can have that as tightly written as you want, but you also leave the player able to go other places and choose to engage with as much side material as they want. To go and explore places and things that don't exist to advance the main story, and instead allow the creator to round out the world.Think something like FF14. JRPG MMO. The amount of shit we know about Eorzea and the world around it is MASSIVE. You have a pretty concrete understanding of how this world functions from not just the high level metaphysics but down to how magic changes how people cook at home, or minor regional conflicts and their histories. 95% of this information isn't relevant to the MSQ, and if this was being written as a book no sane author would ever include any of this except as MAYBE the most passing of mentions. But in a game, the player is free to seek it out and learn it. Allowing the world to be more richly detailed and complex beyond the base needs of the story being told.
>>282516348>High fantasy, or epic fantasy, is a subgenre of fantasy[1] defined by the epic nature of its setting or by the epic stature of its characters, themes, or plot.[2] High fantasy is usually set in an alternative, fictional ("secondary") world, rather than the "real" or "primary" world.[2] This secondary world is usually internally consistent, but its rules differ from those of the primary world. By contrast, low fantasy is characterized by being set on Earth, the primary or real world, or a rational and familiar fictional world with the inclusion of magical elements.If staples of Fantasy like LoTR, WoT, ASOIAF, Malazan etc don't fit your definition, then your definitions are probably wrong, especially when we can say with certainty that Frieren is cut from a different cloth from the former.
>>282516456just fantasy. just as you dont need a special term for works that rely on the reading being familiar with Tolkien tropes, conventions, mechanics and races. you want to call it Arthurian fantasy because one episode deals with pulling a sword from the stone?
>>282516026I haven't read or watched Frieren, but isn't the title supposed to mean that her journey is long over? I thought the joke was always supposed to be that she is in NG+.
>>282516456narou-kei
>>282516553You do know Arthurian Fantasy it's an actual term that people use, right? Just like Conan-esque, or Tolkien-esque.>>282516559The name is Journey beyond the end, because she goes in a new journey to see the soul of her dead party member.
>>282516162Honestly it was just a confusing chapter.Magic cop catches the crimer, says why his invention is bad and she's right that it would have major negative effects in society.Then she says she's going to violate him in the most personal way possible, and overreaction expect of the magic Gestapo. Pretty wild, weird to put it next to the very personal feeling "no peeping" part.Then we get her sexual assault backstory and people in power not listening or caring what she has to say and it's treated very seriously.But you see she goes on to join the Gestapo, it's her job to now intimately violate other people and ignore what they have to say about it.So she's a hypocrite. But she's not written as a hypocrite. Even though she is.
>>282516488The wikipedia entry you are quoting from is a mishmash of scholarly sources that established the definitions decades ago and modern meme usage of the term by people who misunderstood those definitions. For fucks sake, the citation of that first statement that epic fantasy = high fantasy is a WEBSITE CALLED FANDOMPEDIA that is only 5 years old. Meanwhile, the next citation describing the difference between non earth settings (high fantasy) and earth variant settings (low fantasy) is a decades old book that created those definitions in the firstplace. Its okay to admit that you learned and internalized these terms from other people who didn't know what they were talking about and that's why you are wrong. Its important to learn from your mistakes.
>>282516593Is not that hard, first he's a guy, and the one that was assaulted was his girl friend, so now he has an extremist moralfag view of the world and thinks all crimes are equally bad, regardless of context.
>>282516593Anon, this isn't complicated:> magic cop gets triggered by a crime that touches on a personal trauma they suffered early in life, leading them to punish this criminal more harshly than they strictly deserve because of their lingering resentment over the unpunished crime they were a victim ofIts not supposed to be fair. Its supposed to show that the magic cops are flawed both in the past and the present, without just making them cartoonishly evil mustache-twirling villains. They are ineffective and have let crimes falls through the cracks, they have too much leeway to act and judge people on their own (letting personal biases sway their decisions because they lack proper oversight), and how even someone that isn't intending to abuse their power for evil can still overstep their bounds and be unjust.
>>282516622If you go to your local bookstore and look at the fantasy section, do you think Frieren is going to fit next to Sanderson or Malazan or Kingkiller Chronicles, or it's better put next to Slice of Life works like Mushishishi?
>>282516712...its not going to be in the fantasy section, its going to be on the shelves with the rest of the mangaDo you know how bookstores work?
>>282516456Look, it´s pretty simple, high fantasy encompasses all fantasy works taking place on completely invented worlds with their own history, rules and all that. Low fantasy is the insertion of magical elements in otherwise realistic earth-like setting. Isekai as a subgenre covers those works that deal with traveling between worlds. So you see, Frieren, Goblin Slayer, Slayers and Lodoss they are all high fantasy (even if they are heavily inspired by dungeons and dragons), things like Ancient magus bride and the like are more akin to low fantasy and things like 12 kingdoms or Escaflowne, where there is actual travel between worlds, would be isekai.The ones that have skills and levels and systems and whatnot like slime, overlord and all that don´t require a special denomination. They are isekai too, just poorly written/ lazy ones. If i understand you correctly you want to know then what to call it when there is no world crossing but there are still skill systems and levels, correct? Technically if there is no crossing it´s just not isekai. You could argue isekai is more than just that and you are right but world crossing is the fundamental trait. Like Spirited away is an isekai.Way i see it those would just fall within high fantasy, you know, that label is not there to indicate superiority or anything. It´s not like high fantasy is some superior fantasy inherently better than low fantasy or anything like that. It´s just for organization purposes. Unless you have a large enough corpus it becomes bothersome to have a subgenre for each little thing like how they coined several types of punk under cyberpunk and now you have steam punk, diesel punk, bio punk and so on depending on what they are using for fuel.
>>282516925RPG Fantasy
>>282516925This anon is objectively correct. We have words, and this is what those words mean.
I think the confusing part of the term "Native Isekai" is that video game/rpg elements aren't inherent to Isekai stories. The original Isekai stories, stuff like Alice in Wonderland or Narnia were regular fantasy stories that didn't feel the need to give Alice or the Pevensie siblings a skill tree menu screen. There should probably be a better way of identifying fantasy stories that use inexplicable video game elements as a plot point.Meanwhile, my first assumption when hearing "Native Isekai" would be a Isekai story told from the perspective of a native of the other world. We start in the fantasy world, and the main character POV is that of someone from the fantasy world who then gets to maybe witness people arriving from the "real" world. Something like Touhou Project would probably fit this definition.
>>282516925>>282517014Technically, we could define a new term (whether it be RPG fantasy or something else) that exists as a modifier tag to a genre rather than a distinct genre of its own. Like how Parody is, nothing is ever just parody by itself in a vacuum, its a parody OF something else. So you would have things like Escaflowne, which are Isekai. You would have things like Reincarnated as a slime, which is Isekai but also is RPG fantasy at the same time, and you can have things that are RPG fantasy but not also Isekai.
>>282514783Dungeon Meshi's dungeon is a literal dungeon.
>>282516711I'm saying it wasn't framed that way.The perv guy was objectively bad and the following scenes with him justify her behaviour because it turns out he actually was evil.If he had refused the incredibly evil escape plan but had it forced on him it would have worked better.The chapter just came across as the author having a heavy handed rant about a specific topic and inserting a weird lecture into the story and having an obvious hypocrite deliver that lecture muddys the water
>native isekai
>>282517196cities, forests, caves, lakes are not "literal dungeon"
>>282513615No, it would receive more praise if it were a slice-of-life about a cute elf coping with the world around her changing and friends dying while she stays immortal.
>>282516584and its far more Tolkien-esque that it is 'native isekai' a nonsense term for fantasy that isn't isekai
>>282515904They're literally just walking. How much does the world change between where you are now however far you are able to walk?
>>282516208>No it's rather that massive battles and armies are the natural consequence of the scale of events that High Fantasy is about. When the fat e of the entire world is at stake, gods and nations will clash in titanic conflicts.That already happened though.
Name one medieval fantasy media of the last 20 years that isn't inspired by DnD or LotR.Some of it probably exists, but the fact that it's so rare really shows we're living in an artistic Dark Age.
>>282516218>Honestly yeah considering they talk about not wasting mana on dumb shitThat never happened. You never saw the show. They literally prefer to get paid in random dumb magic spells to do things they could just do by hand very easily.
>>282517313It is in a sense that it all acts as a prison for the lion and the bio dome is to keep the creatures that defend the dungeon is all explained in the complementary material
>>282516356>When an anime/manga uses game features, they don't actually serve a purpose so only stand out as unnatural.And what is your basis for this claim? Note that if it's plot relevant, it usually needs a large chunk of the story to get you used to whatever system it depicts, only then does it make sense to reveal the significance of the "game elements" in the story, so the actual revelation only makes sense if it happens at least halfway or so in.
'native' is a racist term a lot like jrpg.Normally, no one would take issue with Slayers or Lodoss having some inspiration from tabletop. No one would even think of calling Dragon Quest Dai an isekai. Not because it's a masterpiece, it is what it's, just a shonen, with barely any relation to the isekai trend.The problem is those people will never be satisfied until they draw all media to the dirt with them. The very way fantasy has been done will suddenly become 'problematic'. The reason early media like Lodoss having tabletop influence has become bad is precisely that, the word is anti-Japan propaganda, someone has deemed that isekai isn't good, so they try to define it in a way that applies to all fantasy works that were ever made in Japan, to be able to call it all bad, J!Anime.
>>282518977You have a fantasy world, you could do so much more. Clearly you're not doing fashion in a realistic manner so why disregard architecture. The sameness of every place feels like something born out of laziness or lack of imagination.
>>282519073Any Japanese inspired one?
>>282519632Both clothes and architecture changed over time as we plainly see whenever we get a flashback to a thousand years ago. What are you even talking about?
>>282519666I dunno!
>>282513615If it was a proper high fantasy it would be too smart for the audience. No. It's successful because it sounds JUST smart enough for retards to think it's clever while still giving them the daily does of retardation they crave
>>282519996So far I fail to notice anything like that happening in the manga, care to post some examples.
>>282520041I do. And I would argue Bugle Call is also not Tolkien or D&D or RPG inspired
>>282520345Thanks for sharing anony. I was looking for some mangos to read in nippon so I'll check them out and see how their fantasy worlds look
>>282519096They do, actually.That's why they don't fly everywhere.Ehre specifically is bad because despite having a lot of mana and skill for her age she's wasteful.
>>282520534Is a ride, have fun.
>>282517313The magician brought the country into the dungeon but it's still a prison.
>>282520572They don't fly everywhere because they don't know how the flying spell works and it is very costly. And yet, they fly all the fucking time and use magic for all kinds of shit they don't need to. Preserving mana only matters in magic duels.
>>282520841Magic duals and dangerous areas Like a a dungeon that they happen to be mapping with a magic projection instead of paper and ink
>>282521008Obviously I think it can be inferred that the map spell barely costs anything.
>>282520841Flying long distance is a bad idea because you are expending mana, and thus advertising your position AND slowly draining your reserves. It puts a big target on your back, and if a demon attacks you after you have been flying for a while it will mean you have less mana to defend yourself with.Walking is slower, but safer. And Frieren is in no rush to get anywhere such that a couple extra days travel time matters to her.
>>282521008Must be a well-understood, very efficient spell then, unlike flying.
>>282521071>>282521082And yet it's still wasteful especially when every bit of mana could count.Sense, for example, can move around using her hair. Since she's not conjuring anything and just animating her hair it's probably really efficient.And yet she walks. Because she's not wasteful.
>>282521273Frieren and Fern were walking through the dungeon too.
>>2825136152Fuck off, Frieren is actually a great fantasy. "native isekai" is a retarded term.
>>282513615The generic shonen formula is what makes it big, it never fails.
>>282523510Nobody under 30 is watching Frieren.
>>282516752Book stores are a place for aspies, nerds, and general faggots who run from any and all socialization.
>>282513615WTF is native isekai? Frieren was straight high fantasy you moron.
>>282514736When
>>282524901Every one of these Frieren threads is from people who haven't even seen it but are in a rage that their favorite FMA:B is #2 on MAL and will be #3 once Frieren season 2 comes out and is the new #1.All their criticisms are nonsensical, and every single time they reveal fundamental lack of understanding about what the show is even about, who the target demographic is, and they always have just basic errors about the plot and setting.
Why is she so racist?
>>282525442It's a medieval setting, not a modern setting.
>>282525442She's a survivor a genocide, anon. Even if Demons *were* capable of empathy, remorse, redemption (they are not) she would still have just cause to hate them.
>>282513615>native isekai Kys it's called fantasy
>>282525442She's not, demons are a species not a race
>>282525894No unfortunately that's a term that has a justified reason to exist It's stupid, but that kind makes it better at what it does because it refers to something stupid Frieren isn't it though
>>282513615>native isekai
>>282525971
>>282513615It would have been better if Frieren leaned more into a Tolkienian Fantasy.
>>282526586Hmmmm... no, I don't think that outfit would fit Frieren at all. Thats the outfit of a noble who gets to sit at home and does nothing all day. Frieren would want simple, functional traveling clothes. Because that is what she actually spends her time doing.Arwen was a princes living in a palace kingdom. Frieren is a magic hobo.
>>282516576What the fuck did you just call me?
>>282525971it's not stupid at all.it's fitting and makes sense, aside to retards who misunderstood what isekai means
>>282517313Danmachi has all of that stuff in it's dungeon and more. I bet none of you wouldn't call Danmachi a native Isekai, so Dungeon Meshi obviously is also a so called native Isekai.
>>282513615what the fuck is native isekai? why do people keep calling every fantasy anime isekai now?
>>282528110They're just retarded haters.
>>282528110Its a shitpost meme designed to upset people because its so obviously wrong that it invites arguments.
>>282525121Easier to say that when you don't address actual criticism because it would take actual work to respond to that.
>>282526922>Frieren would want simple, functional traveling clothes.Bruh, that is not the kind of attire used in Frieren. Having a white cloak continously exposed to the elements is a terrible idea.
>>282528248I have addressed your criticism, by pointing out that you are criticizing things that didn't happen. It's not my fault all your criticisms are all things you imagined after hearing other people talk about it and didn't watch it yourself. How much work does that require?You're probably the same dumb troll from a few weeks ago where I listed off all the scenes from all the episodes that explained the thing you were whining about because you thought the series was confusing. You just never saw any of it and pretend like you have. That didn't require much work because I actually watched it and remember everything that happened in it. You never even replied to me after that. Well I'm still here calling you out. So cry more if I'm defeating you so easily.
>>282528343Only in terms of keeping it clean. There's nothing wrong with it in function. Also: cleaning magic is canonically a thing.
>>282528343Zebra pattern marching band uniform. Can't take it seriously bc it looks so silly
>>282528425What thing? The fact that you claim you can clearly see the pass of time in the fashion and architecture despise the fact that's clearly wrong and you cannot say when a scene takes place without context?
>>282526922> I don't think that outfit would fit Frieren at all. I think it suits her rather well, she has been seen wearing dresses in formal events. Moreover in spite of being a noble's outfit that wouldn't stop someone like Lúthien to dance and run through the woods with it.Also Arwen, much like her ancestor Lúthien, would also delight in wandering through nature, travelling between Rivendell and Lothlorien.
>>282529545This is why I don't believe you are at all familiar with Frieren. Because if you were, you'd know that there has been several large jumps in time and flashbacks going back a thousand years. You would know what those scenes were and when they happened in the story. And if you had your eyes open during those scenes you would have easily noticed the change in clothes and architecture. Or I dunno, maybe you were unable to recognize them because you don't know anything about the history of clothes and architecture in our own world and the very obvious parallels.You should actually check out Frieren sometime. You might enjoy it. Or maybe you're too young and only like shonen slop where characters have to constantly be screaming out exposition for you to understand any of it. But when you grow up, definitely check out Frieren. Maybe in your 30s or 40s.
>>282513615>native isekaiSo basically, just traditional fantasy. Isekai means reincarnation. There is not reincarnation in Frieren.
>>282513615native isekai? dont you simply mean Fantasy series?https://youtube.com/watch?v=NoJ5ci0A8sY
>>282514373kuutei dragons? sorta, it's not classical fantasy but I think it technically is high fantasy
>>282530514Oh yes anon, look at this distinctive fashion that clearly indicates in what point in the history this scene is located, for sure you don't even need to know who the character is, just the clothes is more than enough!
>>282531987The clothes then are different than the clothes in the normal time, so it counts.I don't see why you're arguing this.
>>282531987Even the file name is wrong. You have only convinced me more that you haven't seen Frieren at all.
>>282532015So different! If you put them side by side they clash so much!
>>282532085>the joke>your head
>>282532122They are very different. Why don't you go take some screenshots yourself in MPV since you've totally actually seen the show and aren't just grabbing random screengrabs from the internet somewhere. How about starting with the scene where clothing was specifically discussed. I'm sure you know exactly which episode I'm talking about.
>>282532173Given than I'm posting the issues i'm complaining about while you're just saying "nuh-huh" I think you should be more proactive on showing things that prove your argument.
>>282532264Oh you don't know what scene I'm referring to, huh? Uh oh. Maybe you should actually watch the series then. Don't worry, you'll find it eventually.
>>282532306You' wont bother so why should I.
>>282532410Yay, you finally admit you haven't seen it and are just trolling. My work here is done, then.
I can't take complaining seriously. It is like everyone decided to complain about the series after watching a dumb tiktok video and imagining what the series must be like.
>>282514590Frieren is more of a high fantasy than Meshi, and I say this as someone who prefers Meshi.
>>282513615Nope. I'm surprised it became popular at all.
>>282532975Yeah, they literally haven't even seen it. They just hate it because it's popular. They have to be contrarian to feel good about themselves. I hate plenty of popular stuff but at least I saw it first so I have my own reasons. And other stuff that's popular, I like too because it's popular for good reasons.But with Frieren in particular it seems they only know a few vague things from memes or something and then latch onto some retarded shit that isn't even real. Then when challenged on it they inevitably finally make it more and more obvious they don't know anything about it.
>>282532975>>282533163>you can only hate this because it's popularHolly fuck, Frierenfags are deluded
>>282533209If you actually watched it, you could have real reasons for hating it. But you won't watch it because you're scared you'll actually like it if you watch it, and then you won't get to be a smug contrarian anymore. But actually you just look like a retard and a liar with your obviously nonsensical criticisms, and always calling it an isekai.I avoided it for a long time too, because I generally don't put much stock in recommendations from more mainstream normie types who mostly watch Marvel movies. But then I actually gave it a chance, and it's great just like everyone says. Things that are actually excellent will have even retards like them.
>>282533386>normieYou write like woman and a tourist.
>>282533447Still not a valid argument against Frieren.
>>282513615what exactly is your definition of "proper high fantasy" and how does it contrast from "JRPG-inspired native isekai"?
Sorry guys. I accidentally made a thread since I still had the tab open to the previous thread and made one without checking.
>>282533209no but sometimes the complaint is one scene that lasts 10s, eg. Fern with a map, and you assume the whole anime is that
>>282533813Fern with a map is just the ugliest example, there's still the fact that the entire premise relies on the viewer being familiar with the Dragon Quest style of narrative of "party goes and defeats the Demon Lord" and the joke is "but what happens after!". It feels very reliant on meta knowledge as a shortcut.
>Native isekaiThere's no such thing. The proper term is whatever setting the story unfolds, unless you want to troll.
>>282527013It is fitting and it makes sense, which just makes everything dumber
Frieren is a JRPG manga/anime, just like Magical Circle Guru Guru.
>>282513615Clearly not because Clevatess was that and everyone slept on it
>>282526039Yes I'm stupid but this isn't why
>>282533865>this cape comic relies on the viewer knowing Batman beats the Joker>this shonen needs the viewer to know a hero trains to fight a big bad>this fantasy relies on the meta-knowledge that a hero fought a dragon>Shrek needs you to know Ogres are vilified monsters>One-punch man needs ...You don't just sound like this. You need to be braindead to be confused by "party goes and defeats the Demon Lord" and not put two and two together. I canNOT take this seriously. Your knowledge of media is on the level of "I was born yesterday". A hero fighting a villain in fantasy sounds like mysterious obscure meta-knowledge to you because there are a few unusual terms like "Demon Lord" and the hero fights an "Ogre" in proper Western fantasy.
name the last proper high fantasy you watched
>>282513615I DON'T KNOWI DON'T CAREPOST CUTE ERUFUS
>>282534493The visions of Escalfowne
>>282534493Berserk
>>282534307Is very lazy, here have another example of using meta narrative as a shortcut: mimics. Why are there mimics in the world? where did they come from? I know why they exist in D&D since they have lore there, but in Frieren? Nothing, they're just there because dungeons have mimics in games, no need to further explain why a creature that looks like a man made treasure chest exists. The author only focus on what he cares (the magic) and disregards everything else via meta narrative.
there must be a better term than native isekai.fantasy is too broad for this samey type of isekai setting with- the universe runs on a bad rpgmaker system- "teens" with enormously huge big titties and/or 80000 bajillion years old dragon vampire legal loli, both with skimpy outfits for fanservice- unrealistic adventurer guild that's basically just a lobby complete with literal powerscaling stats- the economy runs on monster hunting that somehow drops gold and "level up" the party- demon lord, corrupt royal, etc- no struggles. if there is struggle, it's expected to be a twist deconstructionisekaislop implies isekai.
>>282536167I mean if you just want non-isekai with stat-screens, RPG classes, and dungeons you can just use litRPGs
>>282513615I don't think Frierens story even needs to be told in a fantasy setting. You could make the same story about an ageless immortal living from 1800s to present day, or an astronaught traveling through a blackhole only to return to earth 100 years later, and still hit the same story beats. That's how little the setting matters.
>>282513615yes because Frieren and Fern are the literal perfect gooner waifu baita tight petite lolibaba who could kill you with a stare and should be stoic but is a childish doofus behind closed doors and is autistic and loveless and cockless despite her massive wealth of thousands of years of worldly experience, did I mention how fucking tight and petite and elegant she is and her knife ears make me want to cum, white twin tails....a stoic mature for her age girl with a long beautiful purple hime cut who covers her absolutely stacked fat titty body with modest mage robes who despite her maturity for her age and motherly aura is still a virginal teen girl with no romantic experience who would melt for cock, could also kill you but could paradoxically be overpoweredwhen they're relaxing in the middle of a grassy meadow on a hot day they wear practically see-through white night skirtstheir very shoujo deceptively fapbait designs are also enhanced by the halo effect of their personalitiesthey are both literally perfect and yin and yang
>>282517053Give this anon a cookie, he can see my screen.
>>2825361641. There doesn't need a reason for a fantastical monster to exist in a fantasy anime. durr why dragons and wizard exist. If there was, the reason is that it's a homage.
>>282536382that anon is retarded. both of picrel doesn't have video games stat-screens litrpg thing yet is called native isekai.
>>282539969it's because the characters are defined by classes with predetermined stats like a jrpg. a real fantasy doesn't do that.
>>282540027>because the characters are defined by classes with predetermined stats like a jrpg. a real fantasy doesn't do that.It's the same in LOTR/The HobbitGandalf is a wizard with high intelligence, Bilbo is a thief with high dexterity, Boromir is a warrior with high strength, Aragorn is a hero with high charisma, Galadriel/Elrond are healers with high wisdom.The hero party in LOTR/The Hobbit spend their time doing dungeon raids for valuable treasure before the main quest (it's how Bilbo gets his magic sword) and then head off to fight dragons or defeat the dark lord.
>>282540143So then LOTR is a native isekai
>>282540170>So then LOTR is a native isekaiBy definition yes, it's got all the hallmarks of a native Isekai, I mean it basically invented the genre
I just want to shake the hand of whoever made up the term native isekai.Imagine sitting down at your computer one day and typing those words into the reply box for the first time.The level of creativity, ingenuity, and sheer brazenness it took to do that was monumental
>>282537701why the fuck did everyone ignore my brilliant and insightful essay on the merits of frieren and fern to argue about "native isekai" fuck you cocksuckers
>>282540273yes isekai stories tends to have gooner waifu bait for fanservice and the main character tends to be overpowered quite easily unlike the hardship of typical fantasy but since frieren doesn't have people got truck-kun'd there should be a sub-category for these frieren, danmeshi, danmachi, goblin slayer, that a-rank party anime, and that s-rank party anime
>>282513615JRPGs ARE proper high fantasy.
>>282517297It was a term coined by a troll anon in early Goblin Slayer threads. Amazing to see it has metastasized to outside of 4chan.
>>282540594If you think about it every anime is isekaifor example To-Love Ru and eva have fanservice and gooner waifus. It's just that the protagonists are native to their world. If they weren't, it would be isekai, but if they are, it is isekai.
>>282525442Who's the other elf?
>>282513615>proper high fantasy instead of JRPG-inspiredWhat does this mean
>>282513615Probably, it's regarded highly on places like Reddit and MAL due to the quality of it's animation and appealing character designs, writing isn't really an important aspect to them.
Magic should not exist as a concept. Its boring and boils down to whoever has bigger mana-storing tits or whatever. Give me a fantasy series without magic.
>>282541389An elf from a comic
>lotr is isekaiHAHAHAHHA idk why it's so funny but I can't stop laughing, it's one of those blatant statements that you see once in a while that sticks with you
>>282513615No.Japanese are insular and despise everything that isn't about Japan or that feels Japanese. Making it high fantasy would mean removing the Japanese elements people tuned in to begin with. >b-but medieval fantasy isn't JapaneseBut it isn't medieval fa8ntasy. It's Dragon Quest fantasy with a touch of Japanese culture sprinkled in, something the Japanese are comfortable with.
>>282540143The other way around, clases were made to fit those archetypes, that's why we have that confused class we call "Ranger" and Biobo wasn't a rogue, hobbit was a clases by itself (elf and dwarf were also clases) before changing it to the clases/race division. And they don't call it hobbit anymore because the Tolkien state sue them, that's why they call them halflings.
>>282513615My only problem with Frieren is the setting being extremely generic and uninteresting
>>282542113>no magichey Pauly give me a non-fantasy series with nothin'
>>282519632What the fuck is this retarded jeetshit. Was this generated with AI? What the fuck are those squiggles above "nenat'ure"???>All those fucking room temperature IQ ESL misspellings that only a shitskin would have left inRetarded subhuman.
>>282541378>calling sci-fi ecchi harem with alien and bioweapon a fantasy, let alone isekai
>>282538017"It doesn't bother me" is not a counterargument for the fact that over relying on meta knowledge is lazy. Yes, we know you like Frieren despise it's flaws Frierenfag, but that doesn't men they're not flaws.
>>282515399Pretty sure this is anime only
>>282523548retard award
>>282545241See >>282516303
>>282536164This sort of retardation is why nobody takes Frieren critics seriously.>>282542796Frieren is literally the Holy Roman Empire in a UK continent. Nothing is Japanese about any of it.
>>282546850Not an argument.
>>282546893What's there to argue about? You already admitted you never watched Frieren and your arguments are based on assuming everyone in the audience is as stupid as you and doesn't understand the concept of monsters camouflaging themselves.
>>282547164You like lazy writing, we get it.
>>282547251I dislike lazy criticism from people who already admitted they never watched the show.
>>282514736>>282514788>>282515399>Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who is the fairest of them all? The fairest of them all is often considered to be Snow White, the character from the classic fairy tale. In the story, she is known for her beauty, which sparks jealousy in the Evil Queen. This tale has been retold in various forms, including Disney's animated film, where the Queen famously asks her magic mirror this question. Are you a fan of fairy tales or perhaps looking for a specific version of this story? Look! Snow White is narou-kei! The anachronism is undeniable proof! Magic mirror? Hah! That's obviously just there to obfuscate the inclusion of a chatbot in the story! It's obvious that the author would create this kind of fast-food-slop. A serious non-escapist, non-wish-fulfillment, non-self-insert author would never ever include AI in a fantasy story! Because anachronism... bad! Isekai... bad! upvote me
>>282544460fantasy is not just magic
>>282547842There's a difference between a thematic reference and a shorthand to avoid doing worldbuilding. For example, Snow White and the Hunter is a good example of using exactly that in a lazy manner and using the entire reference as a crutch to avoid having to do actual work.
I’m not going to pretend Frieren has great writing. BUT, it does feature a level of mental maturity not found, generally, in shounen. For example, when Solitar loses her reason to fight, she doesn’t go on a shounen villain rant about slaughtering the protagonists just because, she simply tries to disengage. Himmel doesn’t want to let her go because that could result is massive loss of life in the future and he has a moral duty for stopping that. Instead of screaming about stupid humans and attacking or something silly, she admits Himmel could win, and thinks of a way to effectively bargain her way out of a fight. It’s not amazing writing by any means, but at least it’s a little intelligent with smart characters thinking and doing things which make sense in their context instead of slavishly following shounen tropes.
>>282548174is it though?
>>282513615>isekai thread?i was right. Clevatess was Dimension W isekai all along!