Why does everyone in the series act like this dude is so smart, and able to poke holes in people's logic? His goal is to summon Satan to prove a vague goal about morality. All it would take is one person to point out that that's fucking insane, and that he's a nutjob.Seriously, throughout a single conversation in any piece of Fate media, does no one go, "I think you're a dipshit with a bunch of screws loose."
>>282641799It's never worth the breath to point out to a nut job that they're crazy.Because they're crazy.
>>282641799Dumb anons didn't understand the character.He doesn't poke arguments in people logic because he is SO smart or has the models high round (he is a fucking bastard despite being a priest after all) it's just that he is manipulative enough to know what to say to mess with people even when they know he is an asshole.Just look at Rin for example. It's true that she is deep inside a decent person and a bit naive, but she still understands the complexities of being a magus and master and she knows Kirei well enough to be aware he is a huge dick... But he still tricks her and messed with her because he knows how people work and finds their weakness very easily. That's how he manages to keep someone like Gil around in such a convenient way while in a way making him believe it's his own choice.And again, it isn't because he is smart or anything, he is insane, he is a nut job, and that's why he does shit. Because he likes to see people suffer.
>>282641958Unironically: same shit. All it would take to dismantled Kirei in a conversation is to understand his goal. He's a sociopath who's upset that he's a sociopath, and is wants to execute a Freshman philosophical debate, by summoning the "manifestation of all the evils in the world," to see if it would naturally be born evil.Literally, all it would take to ruin the veil of superiority this guy has is to find that out. "You're just some crazy dipshit who wants to ruin everything for everyone to prove a point." The narrative twists around itself to make everyone act like he's a more interesting character than he is.
>>282642021I don't remember much about HF (when I think they focused more on Kirei motivations) but I don't think you can really reason much with him in any sort of way. He would just ignore anything he doesn't want to hear and probably find joy that he is annoying you by ignoring your words.In any case, I wonder if he had let Angra Manyu be born and show that, yeah, it very likely will be born and an evil being.Then what?I mean, he probably would be the first to die in the hands of that fucking monster.But assuming that doesn't happen...?I think he would go like>He was born evil so it means I didn't do anything bad, and my father or anyone else didn't do anything bad. I was born evil too and nothing was going to change that.Would that make him depressed and kill himself or something? Or would it actually give him some peace of mind to accept himself and keep being an evil retard making people suffer without any guilt whatsoever?
>>282642133I imagine he's die smiling, "knowing" that he is "totally not responsible" for all his wrongdoings. The more interesting thing would be if Angra didn't turn out to be inherently evil. Then what? He just realizes he's an asshole?
>>282642180While watching him break down and go in tears or angry ranting would be funny, I doubt that would be Kirei.I think he would just nod and mutter>Oh, I see.Or something equally meh and then just stay there immobile waiting to be killed.He would basically be reduced to an empty husk waiting for his end.It's the only conclusion that would be gratifying, I think
>>282642244I could also imagine, if Angra manifested as a child, that he'd take it under his wing, and raise it, to "repent." That feels like a vaguely Nasu thing that could've happened.
>>282642279God. The family meetings would be very awkward
Deadass, you can say this to everyone in the series. The biggest fag of all is Archer who went through all the bullcrap, killing people and beating up Shirou just to say that yup, this is idiot is me, alrightNarou is a hack
>>282642310>Narou*Nasu
>>282642310Archer being an useless pathetic man child is a part of his character>Reminder he is still about the second most prolific servant
>>282641799otaku media is not literature
>>282641799>Seriously, throughout a single conversation in any piece of Fate media, does no one go, "I think you're a dipshit with a bunch of screws loose."Kiritsugu does
>>282641799You can be evil and still be correctKotomine is good at understanding people, and what damages them. He's a guy who can see right into someone's core easily.The desire to be a hero is the desire to see others in danger, this revelation hit Shirou hard because he knows it's true. He would never be happy in an entirely peaceful world where people didn't suffer, because he can only be happy if he can save people. Which is why after Fate and UBW routes end Shirou immediately goes to the middle east because he can only be comfortable when he's in hell, trying to help people in trouble, he needs it.
>>282641799The Humanity in the characters is often fucked from a story perspective.Shirou? Fucked up from a fire taking away everything, would kill himself if he thinks it would help someone elseSaber? Buried her humanity for her kingdom, causing it to fall from her alienation to others.Rin? Probably the most normal retard of them all alongside WaverSakura? Batshit insane from the rape and worms on top of becoming a smaller grail which acts as the breeding ground for Angra Mainyu to come into the worldKirei is just fully aware of his own problems and dips into it for the sake of feeling anything at all. He's a nutjob but isn't denying it when brought up. The last episode of Fate Zero is him realizing it and embracing it. He doesn't poke holes in the logic of others, he's just up and down for anything that elicits a sense of joy for him.
>>282641799>Fate's writing is shitTell us something new
>>282642310How does that make nasu a hack? Just because you are under the impression that archer is supposed to be perceived as a badass character doesn't mean that there's a point in a novel where a character or the narrator goes "archer is the smartest. yeah... he is the one who actually gets it...". It's always quite the opposite.If you'd actually read FSN, let alone any other nasu work, you would understand how retarded you and OP sound
>>282641799I think you're a dipshit with a bunch of screws loose
>>282642839Your image just proved me, thoughNo one talks like that. No one thinks like that.Are you being sarcastic?
>>282642875Archer IS a retard. That's the point.What are YOU talking about? You implied that the writer is a hack since they seemingly failed at writing a smart character. Which has never actually happened because the intent has never been there. You also seemingly agreed with OP, who has missed the point just as hard. If any of you had read the novel, you would know that characters do address the fact that Kirei is insane when given chance.
>>282641799Who's calling him smart?Kotomine is very obviously fueled by an inability to truly oppose his own nature and he does not care about common morality. It's not that he's poking holes in people's logic, it's that he's just justifying his actions purely to himself and he doesn't particularly care what others want. Kotomine isn't especially intelligent and he's not some 200 IQ scheme master. His tricks are very simple and he's foiled multiple times. What he is good at is digging at people in ways that hurt them. He knows how to stir the pot and get on someone's nerves.Shirou's own logic is self-evidently full of holes and every route takes up the task of showing why that's the case and how he'll adapt to having it thrust in his face. Kirei doesn't really have to do shit to mess with him because Shirou's own ideals fall apart on their own if left to himself.>>282642021>veil of superiority this guy hasThere's no such thing. He's not pretending to hold a moral high ground over anyone. He's not so much upset that he's a sociopath so much as he genuinely wonders if evil can be born and recognize itself as evil. Kotomine is a cursed man with a literal black heart whose days are numbered. He just wanted to satisfy his curiosity and see if a born evil being was capable of introspection.There's no dismantling him in a conversation because you can't sway him from his desire to see Angra Mainyu born with mere words. Just telling him he's crazy and that he wants to ruin everything for everyone amounts to nothing because he knows he's built incorrectly and he knows he derives pleasure from others' suffering. What he desires to find deeper meaning in that.
>>282642942This. Archer is just as much of a blockhead as Shirou. They are quite literally cut from the same cloth. Archer didn't get smarter with age. He got bitter and more resourceful, but his intelligence is about the same. He commits the same mistakes, has the same soft spots, and jumps to conclusions just as easily as his younger self. Shirou can be clever at times, but he and Archer are ultimately still kind of blunt and very hypocritical.
>>282642602It's even one of the most disappointing moments in Kirei's life. In Zero, he saw Kiritsugu as someone similar to him that could maybe understand him. He believed them to be broken in similar ways, which is why he was so let down to find out that Kiritsugu was just an immature pragmatist that was swallowing his own pain to achieve a goal he himself did not understand. The fact that Shirou and Kotomine end up being so similar is actually a small catharsis for them both because they found in each other equal and opposite broken fools.
How did Kirei manage to spend 11~ years without a heart as the survivor of a holy grail war while chilling as the Fuyuki church man? Was everyone who checked on him in that time just stupid? Or do they not mind having literal zombies in the church?
>>282641799>>282642021Kirei's arguments are nonsense. Dismantle them with facts and logic (tm), and he'll just laugh and carry on anyway. He's not being rational, he's acting on his desires.Rin sees through Kirei's bullshit and knows better than to try to reason with him. She knows he's an asshole, but doesn't know how evil he is. Shirou, on the other hand, is too trusting. He takes people at face value, which is why he considers Shinji a friend. He knows instinctively that Kirei is a piece of shit, but he never voices his thoughts. Worse yet, he relies on Kirei. For most of every route, Shirou sees Kirei as an asshole but also a responsible member of the Church helping to keep the Holy Grail War in check. By the time he realizes the true extent of Kirei's evil, it's too late for him to do anything about it.I also can't help but believe that Kirei is an allegory or commentary on pro-life ideals.
>>282641799>All it would take is one person to point out that that's fucking insaneThat's the thing anon. In Nasu's works, everyone is insane. He can't write interesting characters without making them fucked in the head to some extent. So Kotomine comes off as fairly normal, and if any other character were to accuse him of insanity, they'd be a hypocrite.
>>282641799The ironic thing is that by you thinking that would be a super epic own would make you someone Kirei would be completely able to manipulative without even trying.
>>282641799>that's fucking insaneappeal to emotion>he's a nutjobblatant ad hominem>you're a dipshit with a bunch of screws loosead personam
>>282644192>"You're fucking crazy.">Walks awayOh, but doing that just randomly leads to a Bad End, because you're not "supposed" to say that.
>>282643745The Church doesn't go around checking if their priests have a heart or not. They assume they do.
>>282644168>He can't write interesting characters without making them fucked in the head to some extent.That's not exactly true, though? What do you consider as "being fucked up in the head"? You could argue that characters in Mahoyo are crazy, depending on how far you're willing to stretch the logic.Insane characters are the most entertaining - that much is a fact. But would you really call someone like Cu Chulainn not an interesting character? I'd argue hardly anyone acts upon their insanity during FHA.Character writing is Nasu's forte and it's just that his insane characters overshadow that fact. The only boring characters I can think of are the side-side-characters like Mitsuzuri's brother or the teacher dude from Mahoyo
>>282644168How do you make normal characters interesting ?Besides Kirei is a sociopath thats what makes him good 90 percent of good fictional villains are sociopaths like Johan from Monster and Griffith from Berserk.Sociopathic villains are very effective.
>>282642021>You're just some crazy dipshit who wants to ruin everything for everyone to prove a pointYes, and...?
>>282647353>Shirou simply replies "Kotomine...!" While seething in his inner monologue>Kirei laughs and proceeds with "I don't have much time so I'll make this quick">then spends the next 45 minutes saying some vaguely philosophical shit and getting on Shirou's nervesOP didn't understand Kirei if he thinks he can be reasoned with lmao.
Its easy to be smart when everyone else is retardedAlso he wisely chooses his victims
Kirei isn't even a real Christian.Him being the local priest makes no sense at all.He should know that only God is good, and that anyone who doesn't follow God's commands is evil.Which means that a being who exists only to kill is evil.It doesn't matter how it feels about killing, Kirei. It is evil because it goes against God's command.Then again, this is Nasu not understanding Christianity. He is a godless heathen after all.
>>282647691Kirei being a shitty Christian is like 98 % of his character.
>>282648161He isn't a shitty Christian, he just straight up isn't a Christian.
>>282641799i havent watched the anime, but did they change the character or what? in the VN he is just a sadist that finds sexual pleasure in others people suffering. its made very clear he doesnt care about morality. "He knows it is wrong but cant help the way he is". He wants to create hell on earth because he likes the thought of everyone suffering. Which is also a second reason why he kept all those corpses for energy.
>>282649375was the pleasure specifically sexual?
>>282648170by that logic there has only been one christian in all of history
>>282641799He just gets away with it most of the time cause nobody knows what his deal is.When he makes it to the end of the route like in Fate and HF, the cards are played people do call out his crazy bullshit and do everything in their power to stop him.
