>>283104101
because it was a great adventure to a far away place and there were actual stakes

bampu

Basically utilized every major character correctly.

Let the weak guys like Krillin & Gohan shine early and often in the arc while Goku was sidelined to train and only used in the finale of Namek. Vegeta's characterization is extremely strong and fans came to love the character during this time as he is extremely ruthless and badass while not being totally evil anymore. Cool, alien setting with a great cast of bad guys and a villain that was properly oppressive and intimidating nearly the entire time. And of course, the coolest transformation of all time.

So many reasons. Also, the Ocean dub is the canon version.

>>283104101
Shit actually happens besides two retards standing around and charging attacks for 15 episodes

>>283104101
It was the end of Goku's DBZ character arc. He accepts he is a Saiyan and defeats the job opportunity.

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>>283104101
This was the last arc that actually remembered it spawned off a martial arts series.

Many people will mention how great namek was, but there's also the other side of things. What was after namek? The androids? Dr. Gero was such a lower stakes story compared to namek, perhaps it wasn't that bad but just simply coming after namek resulted in it feeling like a let down. and I always thought krillen x 18 was weird as fuck. They probably could have written that better but the way it was done was essentially krillen saying "bro i want to have sex with that one robot so that one specifically should be redeemed"
After that was cell? It was decent but time travel is always going to be a shitty storyline, also more terrible shipping with vegeta and bulma. Vegeta's redemption is horribly written. I will never understand the characters popularity. Piccolo was done well, alot of time was spent exploring his changing attitude and he ultimately still ends up as an outsider. No time at all is spent on vegeta we are just simply told it happened off screen and we need to accept that he's good now. After that was buu? That shit sucked ass.

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>>283106677
Cell was just dumb for a lot of reasons. Namek opened up a wider cosmos to explore. Galactic Empires to topple. Grand beings on a universal scale. And what do we get next? Some rando scientist who managed to make robots more powerful than said galactic empire he has no knowledge of just because shut up he did. The numbers went higher but it feels like the scale went down. Why are we not out in deeper space? Why are we not doing the Journey to the West thing but in space this time. Namek was a perfect reset button to get things back on the adventure track and they completely wasted it. What even really happens in the post Namek "sagas" new enemies show up and they train. FOR SIXTY ODD EPISODES. SIXTY. You know what I don't even care if it's cannon or not. The Garlic Jr arc was more interesting. It actually made it feel like Dragon Ball again.

>krillen saying "bro i want to have sex with that one robot so that one specifically should be redeemed"
Hey if Goku gets his with Vegeta then fair's fair.

>>283104101
It was a lot different from the rest of the series. Since Goku isn't there, it's Gohan and Krillin being outmatched and outnumbered, so they have to get the Dragon Balls while stealthily avoiding Frieza's troops. They end up forced into a partnership with Vegeta but even Vegeta is pretty weak compared to the enemy and needed to use his brains to avoid detection and steal the Dragon Balls from under Frieza's nose, at least until he started zenkaimaxxing. It was just a unique experience compared to the rest of Dragon Ball, including OG and future arcs. It also has an incredibly good climax with Super Saiyan Goku vs Frieza to end it.

>>283104101
Krillin being the first person to ever make Frieza bleed moments after recoving from nearly dying made it peak.
Gohan at 5 rising to the challenge of the strongest person in the universe and ragdolling him with moves he learned from Piccolo made it peak.
Goku tapping into his lineage and simultaneously avenging/redeeming the saiyans made it peak.

>>283106732
>Namek opened up a wider cosmos to explore. Galactic Empires to topple. Grand beings on a universal scale. And what do we get next? Some rando scientist who managed to make robots more powerful than said galactic empire he has no knowledge of just because shut up he did.
I think the problem is Namek already established that Frieza and his family are the strongest beings out in the galaxy, so powerful that even the Kais are frightened by him. Dragon Ball's never been afraid of retcons before so I guess in hindsight it didn't really matter but at the time it seemed like there was nowhere else to go from there since they basically already beat the final boss of space

>>283106822
Even if you ignore Cooler, King Cold could have been proper antagonist. It's just especially annoying when you have this guy, hyped up for dozens of episodes to be the strongest beast around and then some fop with a jacket and a sword just turns him into sashimi without a fuss and we're supposed to care about these next retards.

>>283104101
A question about power levels here. if I'm not mistaken, at this precise point of the story (i.e. what's shown on OP's pic), Vegeta is already on par with base Frieza thanks to the zenkai boost from recovering from Recoome's ass beating, while Goku's at a base level of 60,000, only reaching 180,000 thanks to Kaioken, presumably the x2 version, but capable of reaching 600,000 with x10, so still beating out Vegeta and base Frieza. Is this correct?

>>283106956
zenkai boos is, quite possibly, one of the most MONUMENTALLY retarded things in all of battle shounen.

>>283106956
zenkai boost is a plot device, toriyama just put random numbers

>>283104101
Positive:
Lots of well designed goons who weren't immediately just fodder
Freeza was great
It was very intense pre Goku because of the constant threat that loomed over Krilin and Gohan
Good fights

Negative:
Bad pacing
The whole "powerlevels" went to shit, the moment Freeza had his first transformation
Freezas transformations
Boring setting

>>283106732
Yes, that is a much better way of putting it. All of dbz up to that point was setting up for Namek which perfectly opened the door for the next big step. Then it just didn't happen.
I need to actually watch dragonball past namek one of these days I always end my rewatch there. I have not seen anything past namek since the original toonami run so much of it is ancient childhood memories.

>>283106972
I get why Toriyama came up with it. Given the kind of arc Namek was, where things were proceeding at a fast pace with a gauntlet of increasingly stronger enemies with literally no time to train so as to better match up against them, he needed a way for the protagonists to catch up as needed. Thus the "potential unlock" from Guru, followed by the zenkai boosts, and really, Super Saiyan as well, though at least that one served a proper storyline purpose. Unfortunately, he ended up following this same formula in slightly different ways in the arcs that came after simply due to him feeling the need to constantly power creep.

>>283107070
>I get why Toriyama came up with it.

Me too. He was a bad story teller. The enemies didn't HAVE to be that overwhelmingly strong. This happens EVERY FUCKING ARC. The new villain shows up and eclipses the entire power scale so we all think they're badass then goku does some squats and his power level increases exponentially because FUCK YOU. He made the bad guys too strong with no reasonable way for the good guys to catch up.

>>283107205
what is dragon ball to you? you seem like you never like dragon ball why bother talking about it?

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>>283107254
A magical adventure across the land searching for the seven dragon balls and being loosely based on Journey to the West and sometimes having karate tournaments. Actual Dragon Ball I like. It's Z I think is stupid. sayains and everything about them not only ruined goku it ruined the series. Kid Goku was a so much better character than that punch drunk retard he became.

>>283107322
thats not even 10% of dragon ball and its always about tournament and goku training

>>283107452
There's a difference between Goku training so he can beat Tien and Goku training so he beat planet killers under a year.

>>283107461
goku didnt just start training for a year to get to the point where he could beat bejita
you ignoring all the goku past trainings and think its all asspull thats hes just that strong do you even like dragon ball? you seem like you just read it for the sake of its popularity and skim all over the story

>>283107628
>bejita
It's my own fault for talking to a z tard. Let me try to be as clear as I can. I am not ignoring the training. The training is part of the problem. In Z the power scales are so violently massive that the type of and amount of training done to catch up doesn't make sense. Everyone will train for three years to fight the androids and get stomped. Then when the much stronger Cell shows up they "train" for another year and eclipse what they were previously at. The conflict and power levels are too huge and yet somehow the nature of the fighting doesn't change anyways. Saying Goku now has a power level of fifty fuck billion doesn't mean anything. There's no tangible aspect to things.

>>283106148
>Basically utilized every major character correctly.
Except for Piccolo.

>>283107023
>Boring setting
Yea the landscape was just so fucking dull. Endless blue grass fields and lakes. It's a wonder namekians don't kill themselves from how shit and boring their planet is.

>>283104101
Lord Freeza

>>283107884
I know. What's with these different colors when we should be fighting in a featureless desert.

Superman won.

4 times.

>>283108026
I'm MUCH more of a Superman fan and I still don't get why so many people care about this garbage fanfic bullshit.

>>283107806
frirza never trained and you accept that it makes more sense and you call me retarded ? you are reading a cartoon with bullshit power that the characters can train for it that's the appeal of dragon ball
go read shit like hxh where characters can talk to the writer sacrificing their future for power up

>>283108321
>frirza never trained and you accept that it makes more sense and you call me retarded ?
Freeza was an alien overlord. And the whole HE NEVER trained thing came from outside material MUCH MUCH later after the fact. So yes, I'm calling you retarded.

>>283104101
If you're a millennial the Namek arc was playing on Toonami when you were in kindergarten-second grade and was most likely you're introduction to the world of Dragon Ball so Goku going Super Saiyan the first time and fighting Frieza is really the peak of the series. It's like how there's a lot of Star Wars but the "high point" in most people's memories is probably either Luke blowing up the Death Star in ANH or finding out about Vader in ESB.

>>283107844
He could've (and probably should've) been used more but he gets a cool fight scene and gets to fuse with Nail so he has his moment at least.

>>283108354
so you accept being randomly strong make more sense than training to be strong?
training is the appeal of dragon ball even before z

>>283108390
>so you accept being randomly strong make more sense than training to be strong?

I accept that you're an idiot. Freeza was a new villain. We didn't need to see him build up because the story contended he was. We didn't see Vegeta train before arriving on earth. We didn't see King Piccolo training before his original rise. We didn't see things outside of our heroes perspective because we don't have to. It's like asking why we never saw Darth Vader train or Palpatine become powerful before the prequels. You're retarded. And once again, the issue isn't with training, the issue is with sloppy training that serves only as a plot device.

>>283106632
That was so fucking clean

>>283108418
>training that serves only as a plot device.
and why you failed to understand thats the main appeal of dragon ball not dragon ball problem its your problem nobody forced you to watch it

>>283106148
Not to mention a good variety of episodes and fights. It's not all kai blasts and melee you get Guldo's time freeze, Ginyu's body swapping, Jeice and Burter's twin fight, Racoom being a power house but then getting his comeuppance the next episode, and Zarbon's fun transformation. Each one has a unique thing that shakes it up and I remember as a kid wanting to see each one's episode re-run just to see their special thing happen again.

I forget everything that happens, but there were just so many little moments that sold the thing between the characters. Goku and Krillin getting Saiyan armor, teaming up with Vegeta, Dende's healing and almost letting Vegeta die, Krillin and Gohan getting to shine, Bulma's antics, Goku training and healing, Frieza's transformations, the whole business with Elder Guru, Piccolo and Nail, and then of course the iconic deaths, the new Eternal Dragon, and getting to see Super Saiyan for the first time. It's packed with iconic moments from start to finish and we'll balanced with shenanigans, humor, emotional moments, hype moments, and obstacles besides just fighting while still having awesome fights.

>>283108418
>Freeza was a new villain. We didn't need to see him build up because the story contended he was. We didn't see Vegeta train before arriving on earth.
im pointing out training make can make them strong why is this hard to understand

>>283106811
> Gohan at 5 rising to the challenge of the strongest person in the universe and ragdolling him with moves he learned from Piccolo made it peak.
This may sound silly to some people but watching it as a five year old I was so heavily invested in the show and convinced I would also be able to do that

>>283108515
>im pointing out training make can make them strong why is this hard to understand
The HOW. HOW does this training make them that much stronger. What did they do differently in the one year in the time chamber versus the three years in the pre android interim. The use of "TRAINING" here isn't an actual explanation of strength it's a hand wave so Toriyama can skip to rushing into a new power level.

>>283108462
And what you failed to understand is basic reading comprehension and literacy.

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>>283106677
>the way it was done was essentially krillen saying "bro i want to have sex with that one robot so that one specifically should be redeemed"
Actually, he said he wanted to see 18 and 17 fuck. He is such a deranged cuck.

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>>283104101
I don't care what anyone says, Androids/Cell will always top Namek for me in pure enjoyment. Even as a kid, I had a problem with how endless the Frieza fight was and how right from the start you know he's got more transformations to pull out anytime someone starts kicking his ass. Cell was fucking terrifying to me as a child. He started weak enough that he nearly got taken out by Krillin in his first form. Creeping around sucking people out of their clothes and fleeing whenever shit got bad. Semiperfect was stronger, but still able to be contained by Tien and had to play on Vegeta's arrogance to survive. The whole time, PTSD-inducing techno plays in the background. He's my favorite Dragon Ball villain and Gohan going SS2 was my favorite transformation in the series. My disappointment with Cell Max was immense.

>>283108552
training so they can punch harder is the actual explanation you just dont like it
not the show problem its you problem

>>283104101
Sci-fi is cool

>>283104101
Because americans literally started the series at the Saiyan arc, so this was, from their perspective, the "climax" of the whole story.

>>283109719
I mean you don't have to be american to see how it feels like it was supposed to be the climax.
>fighting a tyrant ruling large parts of the universe
>conclusion of the sayajin story with Goku becoming the once a century (or whatever it was) Super-Sayajin
What followed was basically foricbly continuing the story, by making shit up, like how suddenly some guy on earth made cyborgs infinitely more powerful than the ruler of the universe and then everyone gets to be a super-sayajin and from there they jsut scale their power by adding numbers to the level of super-sayajin they're on and then suddenly there's some demon that was sealed on earth and he is infinitely more powerful than the cyborgs who were infinitely more powerful than the ruler of the universe.
These arcs post Namek also don't have any real organization or memorable henchmen associated with the villains, they're literally just about one super strong evil guy and the good guys try to become as strong as him.

>>283109779
>conclusion of the sayajin story
Which was introduced in the very same arc.
In comparison, Cell was about Goku's first foe (that posed an actual threat), the Red Ribbon Army, coming back to haunt him, escalating the story with enemies for whom Ki rules don't apply, and culminating in a Boss that has the powers of all the strongest main characters. A final battle that is a purposeful mockery of the world tournaments that Goku and co. used to participate in. Goku dies in a heroic sacrifice. This is a much more climatic arc.

>you don't have to be american
You have to be american

>>283109779
>>283109893
And in defense of Buu
How is Goku going to space to fight an intergalactic overlord, not a much more ludicrous idea than an ancient evil sealed in a jar? Historically when a series "goes to space" is the moment it jumps the shark. Not only that, Goku is suddenly an alien, and at the end reveals a brand new blonde transformation that for some reason has nothing to do with Goku's previously established giant ape transformation (Would have made more sense if it looked like SS4, you know, hairy and with a tail), moreover Piccolo/Kami-sama is also an alien and the Dragon Balls were created by aliens.

In comparison, Buu is much more in line with previous stories, Piccolo Daimaou was also an ancient evil sealed in a jar, you could say this was yet another of Goku's old battles coming back to haunt him in a way. Again the rules are shaken by a villain that is literally invincible because it can reform itself. The seeming escalation of forms that was seen in the Cell arc is flipped on its head; In this arc, all new transformations are shown to be useless, and Goku ultimately defeats Buu in his base form, and not through an asspull introduced in this arc but with the Genki Dama, finally used at its full power, with the combined power of all the people on earth. This was a proper end to Dragon Ball, showing that true power doesn't lie in gimmicks, transformations, powerlevels, or anything of the sort. And in the end, Vegeta accepts that Goku is stronger. All of this is closing threads from multiple arcs in the past. Meanwhile, the Frieza arc is largely self-contained.

anybody got that gif of Vegeta coming out of a cloud of smoke to punch Zarbon? always liked that scene

>>283106677
Androids saga would've made more sense if Goku actually died on Namek in Trunks' timeline.
>Goku dead
>Gohan and Vegeta can't go SSJ in the original timeline, get bodied by the androids as a result
>Trunks comes back only to find Goku did survive this time
>the saiyans make short work of the androids, only for Cell to come along

>>283108554
>implying incest isn't worth cucking

>>283109719
>turd worlder tries not to turn a discussion into being about Americans (impossible challenge)
friendly reminder Namek/Frieza are the top rated arcs in Japan, too

>>283110176
Buu's problem isn't Buu, it's everything surrounding Buu. heaps of concepts and characters get introduced only to be made meaningless, Hercule isn't funny yet gets more screentime than many of the main characters, and the visuals are some of the most bland in the whole series.

>>283106732
except Frieza isn't just some evil space paramilitary. He is explicitly the emperor of the universe. The stakes went from fighting an ant to fighting a lion. there was nowhere else to go after that. If Frieza was just "a guy", then yes it opens the door up to other stronger aliens. But the way he was introduced immediately discounted that possibility. The only place to go after him was gods and demons and alternate dimensions, which is where it went with Buu and Super. Toriyama really missed out on exploring the galaxy first.

It would've made more sense to go android > saiyan > namek > and then buu as the finale which would've led perfectly into super

>>283110382
You see, the story had to go in cycles
>Adventure for the dragon balls with a kid protagonist, has to do with the Saiyans (Adventure, Namek, Grand Tour/Babby)
>Red Ribbon Army (RR themselves, Cell, Super 17)
>An ancient evil awakens (Piccolo, Buu, Black Star Dragons)

Super messed it up though.

>>283110348
>He is explicitly the emperor of the universe
Well, that opens up a power vacuum
Maybe there are stronger aliens out there that just couldn't beat his army, but now they can rise up. The universe is pretty big after all.

Also, they introduced Frieza's father which means he has his own race, more could be done with that

>>283106148
Helps that they're actually trying to collect the dragon balls and the characters have to employ deception and strategy instead of fighting all the time. There's an actual plot with stakes that isn't just an excuse for matchups.

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>>283104101

>YES YES YES I CAN DO THIS, I CAN WIN, I FEEL AMAZING

>>283110484
if they couldn't solo the Frieza Force they're nothing compared to post-Namek Goku.

>>283104101
No Goku

>>283104101
Because minus the fillers, it wasnt Good guys vs Bad guys. You had multiple parties with independent goals fighting eachother, which made for pretty unpredictable situations and a dynamic story.

>>283110690
If Frieza was ruler of the whole universe then he would have galaxies worth of armies, I think even a powerlevel of 200 million would just get exhausted

Also space travel and not being able to breathe in space would be a limiting factor even if you're stronger than Frieza

Also, I'm sure Frieza missed a few planets the universe would be too big to just rule over and be able to rule it all at once with nothing slipping by

>>283110802
I mean, he didn't rule earth, did he?

>>283104101
The entire stretch from Krillin's (first) death to Cell's death is the peak of the series for me

>>283110802
Frieza was personally capable of wiping out his entire force without breaking a sweat.

>>283110842
>80% of the series is peak
Interesting

>>283108573
I have to agree that there was something uniquely unsettling about Cell himself and his arc that I didn't feel in the rest of DB.

>>283110883
>80% of the series
Did you forget about Super and GT? Regardless, yes.

>>283106148
Vegeta is evil from start to end, the fuck are you talking about. If he could've defeated Frieza he would've killed everyone else without batting an eye.

>>283104823
Everybody was later wished back to life, though?

>>283111467
>different series

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>>283104101
because of the "old = good and new = bad" mentality

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I think Namek was unfortunate for Yamcha and the Crane students; that was their last shot at really doing anything. Toriyama had the opportunity to bring them to Namek up until he made it so the balls could only bring back one Z-Fighter at a time. On Namek, you could have them show off the fruits of their training, and Namek was really a small window of opportunity where their newfound strength could have been somewhat relevant. They were fucked Android Arc and onward.

Tenshinhan had some small little moments with the Shin Kikoho in later arcs, but that was about it for non-Krillin fighters as characters. It's a shame because they had potential; they grew many times stronger than Goku did under the same master (Kami), but then they DIDN'T use RoSaT, and they DIDN'T use the Gravity machine for training. Then don't try anything more potent than their normal training because they know it's pointless.

>>283111581
Tbh they were already relegated to jobbers in the piccolo saga. When they activated the dragonballs on namek there was only Frieza left to fight, so a lot more would have to be rewritten to give them a chance to shine.

>>283109719
This has always been so wild to me. I can see the board room meeting:
>Ok, we wanna localize this Dragon Ball Japanimation thing, but last time it was tried it didn't do well, why?
>it was probably too boring for kids, too much running around and not enough action
>also there's a lot of questionable sexual content, it's gonna be hard to censor it all
>what about this Dragon Ball Z thing? Is that any better?
>it's a direct sequel, much more action, far less sexual stuff, we'll have to censor a few things like blood but it's manageable
>ok, go ahead and localize that
>but won't kids be lost? They won't know who any of these characters are without watching the previous series
>they won't give a shit, kids will watch anything that's on TV as long as it's entertaining
And it fucking worked. America really is its own universe operating under its own rules.

>>283112410
why do ESLs pretend like this wasn't the case in practically every other territory? really only France got the entire series, everyone else started with Z.

>>283112410
>too much running around and not enough action
And then there was the snake path and lots of time spent on a space ship.
>>283112491
>really only France got the entire series, everyone else started with Z.
Hey, Germany did, too. Although it took me a while to even be interested in DB because of the strange OP we got, I watched it all before Z.

>>283104101
They spent so much time there. "Are they still on Namek?" was a meme for a while.

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>>283112491
>every territory is the anglosphere

>>283112622
Spain, Latin America, Nordics, Italy as well. France was practically unique in getting the entire series in chronological order at nearly the same time as the Japanese. Most countries outside of France got the movies first, and then Z, and then the original series. the Anglo dubs outside of the US were based on the French dub and they also got Z first. in fact, many countries in Europe didn't even get their own dub, they got local subs placed on the Euro English dub.

>>283112491
Most countries did air DB before DBZ. The ones that didn't were usually the ones specifically following the American release of the series (basically only airing Dragonball Z at all in the late 90s and early 00s, after the success in America).

>>283112690
>Most countries outside of France got the movies first, and then Z, and then the original series.

In those cases, it was generally early DB episode and/or DB movies -> early Z movies -> DB tv series proper -> DBZ proper

>>283106148
It also helps that they are doing this while actually trying to collect the Dragon Balls, which hadn't been a plot point for some time in the story. Like the last time characters were actively looking for them was Demon King Piccolo and the last time the actual protagonists were looking for them was Red Ribbon Army

>>283106732
It is funny when I think about it that canonicly, the last time Toriyama actually did anything with (new) aliens was Universe 6 in Dragon Ball Super. Anything with the cosmos after Namek before that is all anime original stuff.

>>283112768
only Australia and New Zealand followed the US release, because they got the Funimation dub. everyone else got something based on the AB Groupe or Blue Ocean dubs.

>>283104101
Its not it has dogshit writing

>>283108573
>I had a problem with how endless the Frieza fight was and how right from the start you know he's got more transformations to pull out anytime someone starts kicking his ass
This exact same thing happened with Cell too though?

>>283109719
As if Namek arc isn't also the most popular one in Japan too?

>>283110535
No no, it's

>THIS IS AMAZING, I FEEL INCREDIBLLLLE! YES YES YES YES, I CAN WIN, I FEEL GREAT, I.CAN.DO.THIS!

>>283112899
I don't mean necessarily using the Funamation dub and such, I mean countries like Denmark that only got DB officially in 2002, and there they also skipped straight to Z. Basically, countries that only licensed it after seeing the success in North America, so also specifically went for Z.

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>>283104101
Because of Vegeta's antics. Once Goku shows up it's shit. As usual.

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>>283104101
Lots of memorable things happened

>>283108374
It amounts to fucking nothing, all it does is pad the arc out. Namek is full of padding.

>>283109779
Frieza was himself an asspull, only created because Vegeta got too popular to kill off

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>>283111451
I guess that's why he inspired Meruem and the CA arc.

>>283112989
It didn't though. Cell was almost always in a position of weakness. His transforming's dependent on absorbing 17 and 18. He has to earn his perfect form. Frieza right from his second form tells Piccolo he's got two more forms, so until he reached his final form you knew he was never going to lose.

>>283112989
Frieza can transform whenever he wants. So every form between his first and final ones are narratively pointless.

Cell can't do this.

>>283106459
Yeah it was pretty great until you got to the part where Piccolo fuses with Nail or however you spell it. I remember being like 8 at the time excited to see the next episode after school only to feel like 3/4ths of the episode was just Piccolo screaming with power for that entire week.

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>>283111532
That got shoehorned in at the end and shat all over the arc as well as the rest of the franchise.

>>283104101
Because it didn't focus on Goku.

>>283116978
Why is Goku so cool?

>>283109893
>the Red Ribbon Army, coming back to haunt him
That was always a nonsensical paper thin excuse to make up a stronger enemy. There is literally nothing in common between the Red Ribbon's portrayal in DB vs Z past the logo.
>a Boss that has the powers of all the strongest main characters
That in itself doesn't mean shit. The only thing Cell does with it that isn't a gimmick or a basic bitch blast is gain ridiculous plot armor with regeneration that goes far beyond what the character he took it from can do.
>Goku dies in a heroic sacrifice.
The situation was a plot contrivance that could be nullified at any time, wasn't because of more plot contrivance, and still ended up nullified anyway.