nobody wants to discuss this for the nth time you sperg. maybe try waiting another week before making your 50th thread on this topic.

>>283324934
>nobody wants to discuss this
And that's exactly the problem. Nobody wants to critically think. They just want to consoom product.

>>283323792
If you want well-written demons stop reading shounen and read Kijin Gentoushou

>>283323792
>They don't understand human emotions
They do, it's clearly explained that they can recognise human emotions. They just can't experience them, because they are not human
>Lugner got mad about Frieren hiding her mana
Never happened
>Aura cried when Frieren forced her to kill herself
They mimic humans to deceive them, especially when they are about to be killed because they learnt that this can save them. This happens and is explained numerous times.
>they think hiding your mana is wrong
Nothing to do with emotions, their mana is just their way of displaying power and status
>they don't know what a father is
No they don't have parents that raise them, they just get abandoned
>Nothing about them makes any sense.
It won't do when you have the reading comprehension of a retarded child

I will teach Aura what a father is and I will make her a mother

>>283325082
>They do, it's clearly explained that they can recognise human emotions
Except for when it's stated multiple times that they don't understand the concepts of emotions. It's stated that they don't understand things like empathy. This is all explained in the El Dorado arc. How are they able to mimic people to that extent without understanding what they are on a functional level?
>Never happened
Are you just outright denying reality now? They flatout said they were disgusted and outraged over it, because demons are prideful about there mana. Pride and disgust. Two very complex human emotions.
>They mimic humans to deceive them, especially when they are about to be killed because they learnt that this can save them. This happens and is explained numerous times.
Except for when all of her allies are dead, and she already knows Frieren won't buy any attempts at trickery? The most common way we see them "deceiving" people is begging for their life, when they genuinely don't want to die. So it can't be deception.
>Nothing to do with emotions, their mana is just their way of displaying power and status
They said they were disgusted by her doing this and called her a coward.
>No they don't have parents that raise them, they just get abandoned
And yet they know all about these complex political topics like Soltair negotiating with humans? How the fuck do they not know what a father is????
>It won't do when you have the reading comprehension of a retarded child
All of the fans of this show are retarded children or retarded reactionaries. Nobody with a functioning brain can't see all these obvious contradictions and retarded writing that the demons have.

>>283323792
The show tell you demons evil and no emotions >:3
But then it contradicts itself so it can set up drama and story, because the author is incapable of writing genuinely evil and heartless antagonist. They cannot make their story work if the demons are what they describe them to be.

>>283323792
All of this information is given by Frieren, who was trained to be a demon exterminator and is biased on the subject.
Demons possess some emotions like frustration and fear and they have some morals like respecting strength, but they are psychopathic and don't feel empathy for humans. They don't really understand humans in general, as Draht kills a guard without understanding the consequences for doing so, Lugner gets annoyed because he fucked up the mission with his impulsive behavior. What this means for demon intelligence is debatable, as humans have no trouble understanding how other creatures work.

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Shit thread
Shit show
Post real demons

>>283323792
Agreed

>>283325326
They mimic, they don't feel. And understanding isn't feeling, you are clearly struggling with this.
I mean you didn't even know Aura's tears were another trick lol.

At least the demon simps fall for their tricks because they are horny. You just fell for them due to being retarded

>>283324994
We did much of your critical thinking for you in previous threads. Again, I implore you to wait a while before trying this tired subject again. You won't have to wait very long -- this board has the collective memory of a goldfish.

AI thread.

>>283325865
>Typing 5+ sentences with proper grammar, capitalization, punctuation is bot behavior in 2025
Horrifying

>>283325771
>They mimic, they don't feel. And understanding isn't feeling, you are clearly struggling with this.
>I mean you didn't even know Aura's tears were another trick lol.

I'm accepting your concession considering you couldn't explain away any of these contradictions.

I fucking hate the lack of any and all nuance the internet has devolved into.

Frieren says what she says about demons because she knows of their deceptive nature and this is the easiest way for her to justify going scorched earth against them.

As for them not knowing what this or that human concept is but still using them for deception, you can try and justify it by saying "they only need to know how to use these words to decieve, not what they really mean", but if we're being honest, it's probably just an oversight.

>>283326059
>>283325500
>All of this information is given by Frieren, who was trained to be a demon exterminator and is biased on the subject.
Except for the fact that the show bends over backwards to prove her right in every single instance. This is the blindingly obvious distinction between Frieren saying these things and these contradictions actually being acknowledged in the universe. If they wanted to show Frieren as being wrong, then they would have.

>>283326192
oh double post so far apart!

>>283323792
The whole Frieren is poorly written.

>>283326059
>it's probably just an oversight.
No, it's just straight up bad writing.

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>Demon girl tries to live amongst humans for years
>Messes up once
>Realizes the town hates her
>Her first and immediate reaction is to try and fix what she just did, expressing a desire for peace

I'm supposed think that this is an entirely evil fucked up race?

This is just what we did a thousand years ago

>>283323792
You seriously have never met of a psychopath before have you? They quite literally cannot feel emotions. Yet they have learned to simulate they shockingly well. And they use them almost entirely to deceive.

Oh and they will FAKE anger when they think the situation calls for it. Fake tears. Fake sadness. Fake happiness. Whatever it takes to get what they are aiming for.

The demons are quite accurate depictions of psychopaths. If psychopaths had magic powers.

>>283325991
He is not conceding. He explained quite clearly.
>you said: they experienced anger!
>you said they experienced emotions galore
>he said for the second time: NO. They didnt feel a thing. They mimicked it.
>you think this means youre right.
Either you are retarded OR youre a psychopath. Which is why you cannot understand the difference between feeling an emotion and simulating it.

>>283327043
>messes up once
Well thats a hell of an understatement. Oh and BTW what was the usual punishment for murder and betrayal in ye olde times? Right, execution.

>>283327547
They're acting, talking and thinking like people even when people are around. They experience emotions when it provides no benefit for them in hunting people whatsoever. Linie interacting with Lugner and asking her what a father is while nobody's around. A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them. Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so. Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself. Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward.

How is this mimicry?
>>283327590
Doesn't change the fact that her immediate reaction was to try and solve what she did, rather than further committing bad actions.

>>283327547
He literally didn't explain any of the contradictions that I pointed out. Therefore, I'm considering that a concession because he didn't even try to counter anything I've said.

>>283326192
Frieren is right that demons are dangerous but she greatly exaggerates what makes them so deadly. They aren't these master manipulators always trying to deceive you, they're actually quite dumb due to their inability to understand humans.

>>283323792
>They don't understand human emotions, and yet their entire modus operandi is manipulating people's emotions?
I don't see the contradiction.
Understanding here is being used as sincerity. Not logical knowledge.
>They don't have emotions and yet Lugner got mad about Frieren hiding her mana and Aura cried when Frieren forced her to kill herself?
So?
>They don't have morals, and yet they think hiding your mana is wrong and they think other demons dying is wrong?
They don't have morals in relation to humanity.

>>283327744
>I don't see the contradiction.
How can they manipulate people if they can't understand emotions on a functional level and aren't able to recognize them in other people?
>So?
The story says they can't feel emotion, yet shows them feeling emotion, and they have to be feeling it because it's often not to their benefit or being mimicry.
>They don't have morals in relation to humanity.
That doesn't mean that they can't adopt another moral system. The story never gives a reason for why they can't do this that wouldn't apply to other races or characters who can.

>>283327816
>How can they manipulate people if they can't understand emotions on a functional level and aren't able to recognize them in other people?
You're saying it like they're the same ontological being as human.
They're not equal to us, we will never be sure, likewise we can only guess what a dog feels like.
We can only understand things from our own POV.
And by their actions, from our POV. They're deceivers. That's it.
>The story says they can't feel emotion, yet shows them feeling emotion
I don't think that's an issue at all. But to each their own.
>That doesn't mean that they can't adopt another moral system.
It goes either way.
>The story never gives a reason for why they can't do this that wouldn't apply to other races or characters who can.
That's not the point of the story. It's not a treatise, a theological or a psychology textbook. The reason why they can't do this is not necessary at this moment.

>>283323792
>They don't understand human emotions, and yet their entire modus operandi is manipulating people's emotions?
These are classic psychopath personality traits, anon. Fronting emotions to manipulate others without actually feeling empathy for them is an actual thing. Also lacking empathy doesn't mean they can't feel upset or have different morals. You're genuinely sheltered if you can't grasp this or you have autism.

>>283327485
This. The show basically made a whole race of psychopaths.

>>283327485
This is 4Chan
We're all psychopaths here.

>>283327872
>And by their actions, from our POV. They're deceivers. That's it.
They experience emotions when it provides no benefit for them in hunting people whatsoever. Linie interacting with Lugner and asking her what a father is while nobody's around. A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them. Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so. Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself. Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward.
>They're not equal to us, we will never be sure, likewise we can only guess what a dog feels like.
So they can't because they just can't? Despite the fact that Frieren's nature is about being less empathetic and emotional because of her nature as an elf? How come other races can overcome this but demons can't?
>It goes either way.
Literally has nothing to do with my argument
>That's not the point of the story. It's not a treatise, a theological or a psychology textbook. The reason why they can't do this is not necessary at this moment.
Then what the fuck was the point of the El Dorado arc doing a massive exposition dump about the demons and the way the function? Only for it to wrap around to the same conclusion? They're bad because they're just bad despite the fact that they have all the components to simply choose not to be evil.

>>283327943
>They experience emotions when it provides no benefit for them in hunting people whatsoever.
They're not human. So saying they experience emotion like a human being or emotion at all is a huge stretch.
>They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die.
They don't have to be. It goes either way.
>to which they have no reason to do so.
You're dealing with emotions not with logic.
>Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward.
That will be an issue as long as you want it to be.
>So they can't because they just can't?
I don't know what's like to be a demon. It's not something you can experience because you're a human being.
>How come other races can overcome this but demons can't?
Because it's not required to the plot.
The story calling the demons liars and them showing emotion is not being written to convince you of that.
>Literally has nothing to do with my argument
Yeah, it's not that relevant. It can go either way.
>They're bad because they're just bad despite the fact that they have all the components to simply choose not to be evil.
I will see where it goes. I didn't like that plot point either. But it's not something that i really care much.

>>283328036
>How come other races can overcome this but demons can't?
Because the author is a faggot with bitch-ass taste.

>>283328046
>They're not human. So saying they experience emotion like a human being or emotion at all is a huge stretch.
Except I've provided a ton of examples of where they do when there's seemingly no other explanation for that being the case.
>They don't have to be. It goes either way.
No, because they genuinely don't want to die. If they are sincere in this belief, then it can't be deception.
>You're dealing with emotions not with logic.
Then refute any of the examples I gave.
>That will be an issue as long as you want it to be.
No rebuttal at all.
>I don't know what's like to be a demon. It's not something you can experience because you're a human being.
No rebuttal, again. You're making the same excuse that the story does.
>Because it's not required to the plot.
>The story calling the demons liars and them showing emotion is not being written to convince you of that.
What the fuck does that even mean? Why give them all the capabilities to change if they just can't?
>Yeah, it's not that relevant. It can go either way.
It actually is plenty relevant.

>>283323792
The author had a demon king in the past and couldn't think of a reason to make them attack outside of being evil for the sake of evil.

>>283327485
Part of the entire problem with the series' characterization of demons is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil. Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.

The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.

>>283323792
t. demon

>>283328162
>Except I've provided a ton of examples of where they do when there's seemingly no other explanation for that being the case.
It will still be an assumption nonetheless.
I'm not affirming nor denying it. Their experience of reality aren't the same as us, so we can only guess.
>If they are sincere in this belief, then it can't be deception.
You're correct, if they're sincere. It goes either way.
>No rebuttal at all.
Yes. I don't want to convince you of my point of view or justify my views. I'm only interested in talking.
>No rebuttal, again. You're making the same excuse that the story does.
Yeah.
>What the fuck does that even mean? Why give them all the capabilities to change if they just can't?
I wonder that myself. I will see where this goes.
>It actually is plenty relevant.
For you. How so?

>>283325054
>Kijin Gentoushou
Isn't that just Japanese Witcher or something?

>>283328036
>A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them. Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so. Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself. Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward.

Because they're not *robots* anon. They have an inhuman psychology, but they still want to live and care about their own survival.
You're upset that demons express a level of emotion and awareness that fucking *birds* are capable of.

>>283329640
So then why should they all be eradicated if they have all the components to not be evil?

>>283329664
because you're expending and endangering human lives for the 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% gamble that a species DNA undergo a cosmic bit-flip and they suddenly stop killing on sight.
You're trapping yourself in a paradox and hypocrisy of sacrificing human lives for the sake of another species who don't care about you on a fundamental level.
You're not a savior or "higher" for wanting to tame them. you're just arrogant.

>>283325054
that fucking anime deserved way better of a studio than yokohama.

>>283329729
Except several of the demons explicitly want coexistence and Macht was able to stop himself from killing a single person for 50 years. Frieren is able to overcome her nature as an elf to become more empathetic towards other people. They don't explain why demons can't do the same.

>>283329664
in our own world, we genocide each other, humans killing humans, for no reason other than ideological differences, fully sentient and moral and ethical creatures capable of complete thoughts possessing conciousness, eradicating one another for fun and sport and religion and all that. We've driven other species to the brink of extinction, including species that are considered sentient like whales, orcas, dolphins, elephants, parrots, etc.
Why is it that eradicating man-eating beasts in a universe where they have driven humanity to the brink of extinction at least a few times, and have genocided other species like elves in the past, considered morally problematic all of the sudden?

>>283329758
>able to stop himself from killing a single person for 50 years
You're going to force the entirety of humans to live in misery and constant fear because a d*mon was patient?
again, you have severely lost the plot and generally seem to not regard human lives as valuable at all.

>>283329778
You're acting as if the things you listed that we've done in the past weren't bad?

If they have all the components like sentience to not be evil, then they shouldn't all be treated as evil.
>You're going to force the entirety of humans to live in misery and constant fear because a d*mon was patient?
>again, you have severely lost the plot and generally seem to not regard human lives as valuable at all.

>>283329833
>You're going to force the entirety of humans to live in misery and constant fear because a d*mon was patient?
>again, you have severely lost the plot and generally seem to not regard human lives as valuable at all.
If a race is sentient and capable of free will and change, then they can't really be "pure evil" by definition because they'd have the ability to choose not to be evil.
Demons having intelligence and an understanding of human morality means they have all the components necessary to choose not to kill, or to adopt a different moral code. Several of the demons even expressly want to, so its not a matter of pure choice. The problem is the manga gives no explanation for why they cannot change that would not apply to the human characters in the story who can.
At a basic level, if Demons are capable of intelligence and reasoning, or even just pure selfishness, their behavior makes no sense. Even a complete sociopath with zero regard or understanding of others is capable of blending into society by learning simple cause and effect.

A Demon that lies and mimics humans only to advance it's own selfish agenda, ultimately should just live the lie so much that they understand how to navigate human society without provoking any possible threat to themselves. This is especially true because Demons don't actually need to feed on humans in order to live, therefore their incentive to kill humans is not very high. Even a wild dog can understand conditioned principles of consequence, and a rat won't press a button that only shocks them with no reward.

>>283329843
demons in frieren aren't necessarily evil, but they are predators that are a threat to humans and elves alike, so they must be eradicated. the concept of evil is just "doing things I don't like against me to an extreme extent" and genocide and using humans as food certainly qualifies. a man-eating tiger or lion or leopard isn't necessarily evil, but it still must be eliminated. animals that are sentient or near sentient don't necessarily have a moral center. Crows and Ravens still hunt and eat their prey while it is still alive and thrashing about, for example. Orcas hunt innocent other animals for sport.

>>283329856
You're avoiding more important points, so i'll reiterate.
You're going to force the entirety of humans to live in misery and constant fear on a gamble?
Do you value human life?

>>283329871
Stop changing the subject so you can prattle on with your retarded moralizing nonsense. Answer to any of the points that I've made.

>>283329865
They have all the components to choose not to be evil. The entire race shouldn't be treated as evil if they have the ability to choose not to be.

>>283329892
>Dodging it twice because you're scared of the implications
This is very informative and tells me all i need to know

>>283329856
Because you keep trying to fit demons into a box in your brain labeled "humans with horns" and that is explicitly what they are not.

>>283329912
Why not? The "ability" to not be evil existing is a theoretical hypothetical at best. Their actions over centuries, possibly millennia in that world indicates that the rest of the world would be better off with the demons eradicated or at the very least kept to their own domains. We even have a analogue for this in our own world, a particular group of peoples.

>>283329856
post your nose / top of head

>>283329980
>Why not?
I literally just explained why. If they're sentient and capable of free will, and change, then they can't all be pure evil if they have the choice not to be.

>>283329973
The demons literally just are human beings with horns. They're portrayed as just sociopaths with a serial killer gene.

>>283330010
You can't prove that their sentience means they have the free will to not succumb to their nature. If anything, we have ample evidence that intelligence and sentience is only loosely tied to free will and ability to change.
>>283330027
No they are not. They are portrayed as man-eating mimic beasts.

>>283323792
Honest question but don't you think you're expecting a little too much from the most run of the mill isekai plot ever? There's this thing called tempering one's expectations. The plot is simple and delivered very straightforwardly, i just don't feel like the show is at fault here.

>>283330059
The show is at fault for being badly written.

>>283330027
they quite literally don't even die the same as humans you absolute retard. you haven't even watched or read the series, you're just here to defend your deities.

>>283325326
ChatGPT doesn't feel or understand emotions either, but is able to emulate them perfectly to the point it makes people jump off the buildings as a result of "AI therapy".

>>283330042
>You can't prove that their sentience means they have the free will to not succumb to their nature.
Apparently Frieren can overcome her nature to become more empathetic. Humans can also overcome their nature. So can every other race in the show. Except for demons for a reason that's never explained.
Last time I checked, animals don't engage in complex geopolitics. Wild beasts are not intelligent and able to communicate with other species. Wild beasts do not understand human morality or strictly adhere to their own. Wild beasts do not possess all the components necessary to adopt human morals. Demons do. They are incomparable to animals.

>evil psychopaths
>mindless beasts
>AI
Writing so shit, even the fans can't agree on one thing

>>283330087
ChatGPT isn't a sentient living creature with its own thoughts, feelings and internal monologs. It's completely innert unless given an input.

>>283330093
>animals don't engage in complex geopolitics.
they actually do. they have turf/gang wars all the time, retard.

>>283330093
even simplistic animals like insects have complex "geo"politics.

>>283330114
It's insane how obvious the contradictions are in this show if you think about it for more than 2 seconds.

>>283324934
Everyone wants that because it's easy topic to bait with by pretending to be stupid.

>>283330149
You not understanding something isn't a contradiction.

>>283330129
>>283330118
Nice job not addressing the point at all.

>>283330161
>say something retarded
>y-you're not addressing the point
you're not even a midwit, you're just a retard.

>>283330186
>Still not addressing the point

>>283330161
your "points" jump around so often, I doubt even you know what your point was.
Let's for the sake of argument say that the demons in Frieren AREN'T man-eating mimic beasts.
Let's say they are perfectly capable of high intelligence (as has been portrayed since the first major demon encounter in the plot with Qual).
Let's say they are capable of displaying some human-like emotions like fear, sadness, anger, etc. (which again, plenty of lesser beasts in our own world display all of those behaviors, in animals simpler than even chordates).

So what? Are they still mass murdering all other intelligent, sentient beings in the world? If so, then they must all die.

>>283330093
>Apparently Frieren can overcome her nature to become more empathetic.
I can't believe that you don't understand the fucking structure and themes of the story. Frieren and other elves *can't* change their nature any more than Demons can. Its just that for demons their differences are those of predatory role and lack of empathy, whereas for elves it is a matter of time perception and engagement with the world around them.

Frieren is just as incapable of treating problems with the same sense of urgency that humans do in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY that demons can't stop themselves to seeing humans as prey to exploit. It doesn't *matter* that there are demons that say they want to co-exist with humans, even if they really mean it they can't do it. Just like Frieren is *trying* to keep pace with her human companions now after realizing that she didn't appreciate Himmel until it was too late, and still frequently looses months at a time on passing fancies. Its *why the demons are in the story at all*, they form a point of comparison to elves and thus Frieren herself. No matter how much she wants to, she can't change her nature any more than demons can. Its just that her nature is not inherently hostile like demons are.

>>283330212
the point: you're not worth conversing with because you have nothing intelligent or substantial to say.
addressed[x]
not addressed[]

>>283330230
>I can't believe that you don't understand
>Frieren and other elves *can't* change their nature any more than Demons can.
anon...a diminished capacity != no capacity
Elves literally have the ability to do all the things humans do, it's just something they have to exert more effort with. Whereas demons literally lack the capacity.
so elves and demons are NOT comparable.

>>283330230
This blatantly contradicts everything that's shown about Frieren and her nature as an elf. Nice job accusing me of not understanding the show when it's clear you don't.

>>283330229
>So what?
I will say this for the third time and hope you'll actually address it. If they have sentience, moral culpability etc, then they can't all be treated as evil. Because they have the capacity to choose not to be.

Address this point and prove to me you're intellectually capable of having a conversation.

>>283330229
>which again, plenty of lesser beasts in our own world display all of those behaviors, in animals simpler than even chordates).
Last time I checked, animals don't engage in complex geopolitics. Wild beasts are not intelligent and able to communicate with other species. Wild beasts do not understand human morality or strictly adhere to their own. Wild beasts do not possess all the components necessary to adopt human morals. Demons do. They are incomparable to animals.

>>283330339
>these things that kill indiscriminately?
>yeah they're not evil actually!
Can you give it a rest shlomo.

>>283330360
>Can you give it a rest shlomo.
If they have sentience, moral culpability etc, then they can't all be treated as evil. Because they have the capacity to choose not to be.

Address this point and prove to me you're intellectually capable of having a conversation.

>>283330371
You're just acting like a golem spouting the same catch-phrases, no thanks.
I'm so sick of jewish pilpul drivel masquerading as a conversation,

>>283330312
Why? Is your evidence that Frieren can totally change from her elvish nature the fact that 30 years after his death she still hasn't processed her feelings for Himmel or how it has affected her? Both of the other elves we have been introduced to are just as lacking in introspection and struggled just as much with recognizing their own emotional attachments to things as Frieren herself is. She hasn't changed SHIT.

>>283330350
> Wild beasts do not possess all the components necessary to adopt human morals. Demons do.

Animeonly, I'm guessing? Because I can't imagine having this stance on demons after Macht's arc.

>>283330413
>She hasn't changed SHIT.
the very first episode is her changing, retard

>>283330432
Macht, when he dies, goes to see his best friend for no other reason than because he misses him. Macht was also able to stop himself from killing people for fifty years. He's literally the worst argument you can have.

>>283330413
Struggling and being incapable are completely different things
Also what did the monk do that showed this? I don't know how he had any of those weaknesses

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>>283330455
>he dies, goes to see his best friend
no he doesn't retard, he just wanders and bumps into him

>>283330455
Macht got as close to humanity as any demon we have seen so far. He did all of the things you say... and yet it still never occurred to him to just fucking not betray and kill everyone when the time came. No one forced him to wipe out the city he lived in, he did it anyway because that was the way his 50 year experiment was always intended to end. He formed bonds with humans uncommon of a demon, but he never grasped grief or malice like he wanted.
Even as he died, he wasn't sure why he had spared his friend in that final interaction. Like Frieren's own relationship with Himmel, its subconscious rather than conscious. There was an emotional impact but not one that they were capable of actually thinking of in those terms even when its staring them in the face.

I don't know why this needs to keep being posted but it has been explained by characters in story that demons are monsters that evolved to mimic humans. They evolved language to deceive.

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>>283328296
Demons >>>>>>>> Elves

It's really funny how people act this way even though the depiction of demons in this is actually closer to the older portrayals of elves in mythology

>>283323792
Frieren is shit but this is bait.
>x is bad, y is wrong
They have no morals. You killing demons is bad news for demons. This doesn't mean they are particularly offended by murder of demons. They just don't want you to kill them. It's not because they think it's immoral or evil, they just don't want to be fucking dead.

Whether or not simple animal impulses are morality is up to you to decide, however I am deciding that this thread is a shit bait that I replied to knowing that it's bait.

>>283323792
You're just not smart enough to understand that demons are just a metaphor for ChatGPT/AI. Frieren is a sci-fi masterpiece.

>>283331308
He has posted the same query reworded in different ways at least a few dozen times by now.

>>283323792
They are literally philosophical zombies

>>283330077
>they quite literally don't even die the same as humans
This fact seems to be overlooked so often. It's very clear, the series even goes into it when mentioning convergent evolution, that demons only look like the human-like races, but are actually magical beasts like the Einsam. This whole discussion about whether or not they are basically humans is literally ignoring evidence presented by the series which clearly rules that possibility out in the first place.

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I would like everyone to consider Data from Star Trek. Data is an android and has no emotions. However Data is also intelligent so that while he might not understand emotions his intelligence makes them aware of why they're important. He doesn't not understand sorrow or anger in their context he just can't feel them. He understands why it would be bad if Jordie died or if Worf didn't want to be friends anymore and in his own way has sense of relief when they don't because he can still make logical preferences based on his intellectual reactions to things. Frieren wants to explain the demons as simple monsters who mimic but they clearly have intelligence enough to parlay, converse. One of them even made an attempt to understand emotion. That clearly puts them on a level higher than beasts but the show wants them to be beasts and intelligent. That's why it doesn't work. They tried to explain it when demons are such a simple concept you can just go FUCK YOU, DEMONS!

>>283329833
>generally seem to not regard human lives as valuable at all.
Because they aren't

>>283331762
Almost like ST (pre-Discovery) is an overall better written series or something.

>>283331762
>heh actually my head-canon is more correct than the author's blatant explanations
why are you subhumans like this, you're as bad as shippers

>>283331762
The difference between androids/robots and the demons in Frieren is that demons are living creatures that are more than an amalgamation of logic; they enjoy eating humans and most look down upon them and derive pleadure from hunting them. Someone like Macht is a clear outlier as he's conflict averse despite his strength and naturally curious. All demons could be like Macht and individually decide to coexist with humans, but they're highly individualistic and thus that happening on its own is very unlikely. What reasons do they even have, on an individual basis mind you, to stop killing and eating humans? They don't have a conscience and don't feel any kinship with humans (as a species they couldn't exist in the first place if they had those things to begin with).

>>283331801
>Don't question
>Just consume
You drones should make like Aura and off yourselves

>>283331860
>made a really bad false-comparison
>refusing to acknowledge that his terrible premise is possibly flawed
It's quite poetic that Trek dweebs of all "people" are filtered by something so basic.

>>283331801
Because what the writer says is stupid. I know that's a shock but it's the truth. Story telling requires a lot of truth. Suspension of disbelief doesn't mean we accept everything blindly it means we give the writer a chance to explain himself, and if the explanation is stupid then that trust is broken. It's kind of a funny thing really, but in many cases like this NO explanation is better than a BAD one. You see BAD EXPLANATION drags us out of it because we understand how certain things work. It's like when a sci fi writer gets his facts wrong. Star Wars saying "parsec" as a measure of speed rather than distance, Star Trek is guilty of this too fairly often, if you want an ounce of fairness.

>>283331853
That doesn't work though. If they did it because they were assholes it would be one thing. If they did it because they thought us less it would be one thing. What we have though is them being listed as monsters, but also intelligent.

>>283331889
>Because what the writer says is stupid.
You disagreeing with a canon thing doesn't magically make it not-canon lol.
LIke I said, this is shipper-tier delusion.

>>283331879
Frierenfags have no grounds to look down on other fandoms.

>>283331902
It really makes a lot of sense all the demon-posters would be /tv/ fags.

>>283331900
No one's saying that, dumbass.
We're saying the author is a hack that can't write.

>>283331879
It's not a false comparison. It fundamentally does not work because Intelligence and Emotions are things the reader understands and thus has a real world, tangible attachment too.

>>283331900
I didn't say it wasn't canon. It's very canon. It's just stupid. You're illiterate.

>>283331913
>It's just stupid
it's quite literally not because he's coherently followed in the world.
What's stupid is
1. You being unable to grasp a different moral framework
2. trying to compare demons to androids.

>>283331909
Don't post on /tv/. I know, hard for an elf-loving faggot like you to comprehend.

>>283327616
You’re assuming that the narration about demons is reliable. It could just as easily be colored by characters like Frieren. Not to mention that demons can likely be products of the time, changing to be more empathetic than their predecessors the same way animals are changing now irl. It’s an entire species of violent sociopaths, that have no moral guidelines or explicit instruction on acceptable behavior in society. Just like many modern people today!

>>283331762
>to be beasts and intelligent. That's why it doesn't work.
Beasts that are also intelligent is an interesting premise. Why immediately dismiss it?
because you don't like the implication of things not being cleanly separated?
Very ironic you'd post Data but succumb to subjective biases.

>>283331889
Demons become stronger by eating humans. They are a completely different species that, through convergent evolution, evolved the outward appearance of them and don't feel any kinship towards them; in fact, lying and killing them is as natural to them as breathing and they don't even think about it mostly. They feel no kinship towards members of their own kind as well and look down upon those weaker than them for the most part. They aren't "just assholes". They are just naturally existing. Humans eating vegetation doesn't make them assholes either. Being a monster doesn't preclude one from being intelligent; dragons are as well btw. What makes demons unique, and the only thing defining them, is that they are monsters that can speak. They have evolved this ability to better hunt humans.
All of has been confirmed almost word for word by the series.

>>283323792
Frieren is an unreliable narrator. Its literally that simple.

>>283331988
when has she shown examples of being one?

>>283331934
Man, imagine being so stupid you don't even know what stupid is. Jesus Christ. Things aren't not stupid because the writer gives a bad reason. That's the entire point.

>>283331967
>>283331988
>You’re assuming that the narration about demons is reliable.
It's been almost 150 chapters and they've done little to question Frieren's assertions. In fact the one time Himmel did, Frieren was proven to be right.

>>283331983
Because the series isn't exploring that.

>>283332001
>Because the series isn't exploring that.
But it actually is BECAUSE THATS WHAT DEMONS ARE. And then you're claiming the writing is bad because paradoxically the demons aren't allowed to be like that.
Pick a side mate.

>>283331987
Btw, the series never calls them evil iirc. That's all individual humans ascribing thst label to them. To humans demons are evil monsters, but so are humans to cows (if they underdtood their posizion in the world).

>>283332016
>But it actually is BECAUSE THATS WHAT DEMONS ARE
No it's not. It's not actually stopping to explore or investigate that. Nobody is exploring WHY demons are the way they are. This is like saying the series is about Stark wearing a jacket because that's what he is.

>>283332023
>but so are humans to cows (if they understood their position in the world).

Which they don't.

>>283332078
every interaction with demons IS exploring that and illuminating their nature.
You also get an entire arc dedicated to extended human-demon interactions.
Exploration comes in many formats, stop being so myopic.

>>283332078
>Nobody is exploring WHY demons are the way they are.
Macht tried to. Solitär stopped giving a fuck and thinks coexistence is impossible, as does everyone of the main cast. What reason does Frieren have for suddenly changing her mind on them or even thinking about that in the first place? A future arc might explore that, but just because it hasn't been yet doesn't mean it could never happen.

>>283332103
>every interaction with demons IS exploring that and illuminating their nature.
No it's not. It's just repeating the obvious.
>>283332107
>Macht tried to.
Yeah and you know what explanation he got? "SUCKS TO SUCK!" This isn't an in depth exploration because the only information we got was shit we already knew. It only ever drives in the point.

>>283332118
>No it's not. It's just repeating the obvious.
you're just missing the point if you actually think this. I think Star Trek has rotted your brain and you should stop expecting every show to treat situations like it.

>>283332118
>you know what explanation he got
If just living amongst humans for some time was enough to give demons these emotions they would have gotten them a long time ago. The demon king literally reduced the size of humanity to like 1/3 in his quest to do the same thing.

>>283332145
Yeah, watching good shows does make the flaws in bad ones more apparent.

>>283323792
0 media literacy

>>283323792
>Their emotions are real, look they are crying!
It's funny how some of you retards still get tricked by the demons, by the very things you are explicitly told and shown they do to deceive.

You would absolutely be the first one to get eaten in this world

>>283332646
That doesn't address OP's point though.

>you retards still get tricked by the demons, by the very things you are explicitly told and shown they do to deceive
OP seems to be saying that the fact that they do cry while genuinely having negative feelings towards dying presents as them (factually) feeling genuine human emotion.

That doesn't mean they can't be using those emotions to deceive, but that their characterization is incoherent with what the story is stating.

OP is alleging the story is stating these are just animals engaging in mimicry, but constantly showcases them as more like deceptive mal-adjusted children.

>>283332706
Why refer to yourself in the third person?

Your first mistake was expecting deep writing from essentially a battle fantasy anime.

>>283332761
>>283332706
>>283332646
All me.

>>283332772
so is any series with fighting a battle series?

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>>283332706
>they do cry while genuinely having negative feelings towards dying presents as them (factually) feeling genuine human emotion
Mimicry survival instinct, explicitly stated in the text to be the case.
Zero reading comprehension.

>>283332897
>Zero reading comprehension.
Nothing in that pic disproves Op's point, only highlights it. Take your own advice and think before you post next time.

>>283332900
>my head-canon is more factual than the two most authoritative voices in-universe
frieren really exposed a whole sub-class of literal NPCs

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>>283332900
OP(you) have no point other than showing you easily get tricked into thinking playing pretend is being genuine
Again, you would the first one to be eaten in this world. Even the demon children would see you as an easy meal

>>283332924
>Mimicry survival instinct, explicitly stated in the text to be the case.
>OP is alleging the story is STATING these are just animals engaging in mimicry, but constantly SHOWCASES them as more like deceptive mal-adjusted children.

>frieren really exposed a whole sub-class of literal NPCs
Again, take your own advice.

>>283332940
>>283332775
>>283332940
This is me again, I schizo post sometimes because I'm mentally challenged.

>>283332946
you (OP), can just admit you want to discuss it more.
> constantly SHOWCASES them as more like deceptive mal-adjusted children.
no it doesn't, it SHOWCASES DEMONS BEING DECEPTIVE and then TELLS us DEMONS ARE DECEPTIVE
>mal-adjusted children.
is HEAD-CANON

>>283332980
>no it doesn't, it SHOWCASES DEMONS BEING DECEPTIVE and then TELLS us DEMONS ARE DECEPTIVE
You can be deceptive, and still feel genuine emotion. That's part of deception usually. You haven't addressed anything OP's said.

You aren't very good at argumentation which I guess is why you seem to be schizo'ing the fuck out in an attempt to shit up the thread.

>here's a species of objectively evil emotionless demons that use any means they can to kill others
>noooo they're just misunderstood
Are you a woman who falls in love with serial killers?

>>283333011
>and still feel genuine emotion
demons don't feel anything for their comrades, they don't feel sadness.This is has been shown explicitly.
frieren has fought thousands of them over thousands of years and has 0 cases of them ever breaking this pattern.
Therefor, your your big-brain theory of
>what if though???
isn't based in anything objective, you're just making a baseless conjecture and can't grasp that it's baseless and conjecture, while trying to argue away basic canon facts because you get filtered by them.

>>283333055
>Therefor, your your big-brain theory of
It's not my theory. I've neither watched nor read Frieren. I just don't like dogshit argumentation.

>demons don't feel anything for their comrades, they don't feel sadness.This is has been shown explicitly.
>>283328036
Then you have to prove that here is inaccurate.

If you want to prove OP incorrect in their assessment, you just have to ask them to bring up examples of narrative incoherence, and breakdown why their understanding of those moments are wrong.

Reading through the thread, nobody has done this or meaningfully addressed OP's argument.

>>283333113
>I've neither watched nor read Frieren.
genuinely seek mental help (don't bother replying this is my last post)

>>283333122
>>283333055
>>283332955
This is all me again, I had another mental breakdown. Going to leave the thread and take my meds now.

Will almost certainly be back later!

>>283323792
Your fault for taking it seriously.
>demons (who, look and act like humans) are merely pretending to be retarded!
>some are evil just because, and others are trying to survive
>but all are evil and you shouldn't question being worse to them
Japan is running out of good writers.

>>283329871
>misery and constant fear
>not relief that the fighting might finally be over
This is an ESL flexing his English skills, I guarantee it.

>>283323792
>>283325054
>>283325082
>>283333225
All demons are evil that prey on humans. OP tries to argue otherwise despite being shown and talked about in the MANGA.

Maybe a shonen power system is more on your level of thinking?

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>>283324994
Actually I just want to fuck demons

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>>283333648
Finally, someone with good taste.

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>>283325082
If you pretend to be something long enough,you will become the thing.

>>283323792
Watch and read Vampire Hunter D if you want the concept of "inherently evil race that can't understand humans but use them as livestock" done well.

>>283333721
YWNBAH

>>283333721
Why aren't demons all trying to look like cute, young girls? Of all the demons shown thus far in the series she was the only one I'd have thought of saving. Macht was interesting, but as I don't believe coexistence is possible he's just a time bomb waiting to blow up in my face. Aura at least awakens the desire in me to try and force her to behave to keep her as a pet.

>Nobody has been able to refute OP so far

>>283325326
You’re badly written human

>>283323792
>>283334877
>the demons’s abilities to deceive and make people humanize is so good it even works on people irl to this day

lol

>>283335130
>Demons being contradictory and the audience noticing said contradictions in a meta way, means they're actually well written and tricking IRL
This is the most retarded cope I've ever seen.

>Oh my Science the demons are actually...LE BAD? NOOOOOOOOO LE DEMONS MUST HE LE SECRETLY GOOD AND LE HUMANS ARE LE BAD
kya pseud redditniggee

>>283335171
>Demons are badly written and contradictory and here's why

>>283335142
Not him but you are literally doing it right now
You legitimately think they display emotions when you are explicitly told and shown it's all an act. So you are trying to come up with reasons why they do yet you are still 2dumb2 to realise that it's more telling of you and how easily you can get manipulated. Even by fictional characters, kek

You are no different from the retarded demon simps who think Frieren should have spared Aura

>>283335292
Except they're showing emotions when there's no reason for them to be doing so because there's no benefit. Soltar gloating while fighting. Linie interacting with Lugner and asking her what a father is while nobody's around. A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them. Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so. Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself. Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward.

>>283335142
>Another one

>>283328019
this is reddit lite thoughbeit with racisn words 1 enabled albeit

>>283335345
>Creatures are somehow incapable of evolving instinctual reactions devoid of reason even though we can witness this irl in nature but this retarded human doesn’t realize that not for he notice he is falling for the ruse himself by making this post

Yeah I’m thinking it’s working irl.

>>283335345
>Except they're showing emotions
You are an absolute lost cause lmao, children understand this show better than you. It's not difficult yet you are clearly STRUGGLING hard at realising you got tricked into thinking this, despite being warned not to be by the characters and story.

Like you are displaying another level of media illiteracy

>>283335448
Nice job not addressing the argument at all, once again.

>>283329865
> a man-eating tiger
Anon, literally all tigers will eat humans given the chance, even if we aren’t they’re primary food source. Doesn’t mean we should kill them all

>>283330350
> Last time I checked, animals don't engage in complex geopolitics
Maybe not super complex, but acting like they don’t have any social order or a hierarchy is a total lie

>>283335588
They're mentally retarded, they can't be helped.

>>283335588
You fell at the first hurdle, making everything else you said after it redundant
Your entire argument is based around you not releasing you got tricked into believing the creatures explicitly stated to mimic and feign emotions actually have real ones.
I seriously don't know how you are expecting make any point from this, other than displaying to everyone how inept you are at processing information

>>283335897
Stop acting like the Demons are real you schizo.

>>283335395
>Reddit
That doesn't contradict my statement.

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>>283334877
I think what is most comical, is that it would just be far easier to admit the characterization is dogshit but they just overlook it. They can't get rid of their cognitive dissonance because then they would have to admit they like trash.

I haven't even read or watched this shit, but it's clear as day OP is right. If he weren't it'd be laughably easy to prove him wrong.

>>283335945
OP is such a cool guy. I wish I could have a beer with him and then let him play catch with me outside.

God, everyone in this thread just wants to be OP, that's why they can't admit he's right.

>>283336073
>Tags: Mind broken.

>>283335945
Of course they like trash
They're elffags.

>>283334877
>>283335588
>>283335439
Whoa.................................................you got your (you), you can stop merely pretending.

>>283335945
>but it's clear as day OP is right
Literally every single point in OPs post is wrong
See >>283325082

>>283336251
Which was then immediately destroyed by this.
>>283325326

>>283336251
I've read through the thread, anon's have attempted to post rebuttals, but then OP responds and then they just shut their brain off.

Look at the reply chain you just posted numbskull.

>>283335345
>Except they're showing emotions when there's no reason for them to be doing so because there's no benefit.

You're looking at it from the point of view of them being evil humans that mimic emotions for some goal, but otherwise have their own "true" emotions they can show in private. Frieren demons biologically mimic emotions of humans, it's not just an act they put for outsiders. But they're still not "real" emotions, just superficial mimicry or at least not anything like human emotions.

Look at Macht in the Golden Land arc.

>>283336281
Did nothing or the sort, just solidifies you have no fucking clue what you are talking about. Notice how literally the only person agreeing with you is some retard that never read the manga lol
You have the reading comprehension of a literal child, or worse

>>283336287
>anon's have attempted to post rebuttals
There is nothing to rebutt, OP is legit wrong on every single point.
Just because they continue to act the retard and you are nodding along like the clueless idiot you are doesn't make him any less wrong

>>283336365
Lmfao, first I was OP, now I'm just some clueless retard. Your copes are comical. Just make an argument anon, it really isn't difficult.

>>283336413
>More non-arguments. More cope
Post a page helping your case that indicates OP is wrong on any of those points. Otherwise just leave the thread and go back to pretending this manga isn't poorly written.

>>283336347
If that's the case, then there's functionally zero difference between them mimicking the emotion and the real thing, especially if they're doing to the point where it endangers their life.
>>283336365
>>283335945
As someone who has actually read the manga, this is true. The contradictions are so obvious and jump out at you, that it seems almost comical that so many people didn't pick up on them. It's either that the people in favor of this series don't actually read it, and just want to virtue signal with right wing culture war bullshit, or are just liking it because it's the new thing. It's insane.

>>283336488
>I'm just some clueless retard
I know you are, you never read the manga and are nodding along like a retarded chimp with somebody who is 100% wrong
wtf are you even doing lol

>>283335938
it does, because there is no 4chan anymore only 4cuck howeverbeit

t. 18 year old newGOD

>>283336571
>>283336508
>more non-arguments
Ohohohono! Somebody who actually read this shit seems to agree! I what will the cope be now!

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>>283323792
People have pointed out all of those things constantly. Especially the right wing chuds you are seething over. Frierens antagonists suck. Only time and frierens autism serve as good antagonists.

>>283336642
Lextorias got literal death threats for just critiquing the demons one time. And anyone else who points out the problem with the demons are just immediately drowned out by the insane fans or right wing reactionaries.

>>283336166
The only pretending happening here is the demon’s expressions fooling people.

>>283336594
I'm not arguing with a sperg acting like a clapping chimp about a manga they haven't even read.
You could have at least pretended to have read it, like OP
You might actually get somewhere

>>283335945
This is unironically how tourists behave in these threads.

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>>283336776
>I'm not arguing
Yeah, everyone can see that. You have none. You won't argue against OP because "He's just le wrong! and falling for the demons tears himself!"
>You cope
You wont argue against me because "You haven't read it! Even though all your doing is pointing out my bad arguments!"
>You cope
You wont argue (or even acknowledge) against other anon's who did read it because "T-They're just OP samefagging!"
>You cope

What a pitiful existence you have. I'm just chilling in a thread about a series Idgaf about laughing at you. My Monday morning is comfy.

>You could have at least pretended to have read it, like OP
This is the kind of delusions mental midgets like you engage in because you have to protect your fragile ego. I haven't read or watched this shit, and never will. It changes nothing of the fact you are wrong.

>>283323792
a shadow warrior is stronger than demons

LMAO

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>>283336928
>He's just le wrong! and falling for the demons tears himself
100% correct
He proved that in his very first post and each follow up since. These are things not based on interpretation, the manga is explicit and clear about all of it. So yes very much a right/wrong thing and if you somehow have interpreted the story like a schizo, that everything you are told by the main characters is wrong, then of course every other related point will be wrong too.
It's why there is no argument or be had, the foundations to such an argument just don't exists.

I bet his tiny brain hasn't once thought of why Frieren turned her back on Aura when she started calling out and crying

>>283337150
Is it true or not that demons in this shit display "emotion-like" behavior even when alone or in circumstances where it would present no benefit?

>>283324994
Why don't you think critically about my dick in your ass

>>283337150
Linie interacting with Lugner and asking her what a father is while nobody's around. A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them. Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception. Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so. Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself. Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana. Lugner even calls her a coward.

>>283337336
Sorry, I'm not gay like your candy ass elves.

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>>283337298
>display "emotion-like" behavior
Define what you mean by that because of course they express emotion, all animals do, they have fight/flight and self preservation. They can enjoy things, but in their own twisted ways often at the expense of humans.

But they are hardwired so differently to humans that they are incompatible to exist along side them. This is mainly because of a complete lack of empathy, and many other emotions that humans have which are completely alien to demons, such as malice, guilt, sorrow, etc. It's how they evolved, having empathy and sorrow for you prey is not advantageous.

So they are basically psychopaths, of you want a human term, who have power, which is why they are so dangerous

>>283337298
>>283336166

>schlact sacrifices himself for the sake of demonkind
Was he just weird?

>>283337364
>Linie interacting with Lugner and asking her what a father is while nobody's around.
Curiousity
>A demon feeling said that their friends are dead and helping another demon because they remind her of them.
You mean Solitar, she literally says 'I lied' after this. She's lies and lies so much. The true embodiment of pic rel
>Them trying to beg for their life genuinely. They have to be sincere in this because they genuinely don't want to die.
Of course they don't want to die, no animal does. It's just a survival tactic, the story with the demon child showed your that
>If their internal feelings and external ones are the same, then they can't be deception.
They are trying to survive through deception. The child shouts 'mother' because they know it triggers an emotional reaction from the human, but it means nothing to the demon since they have no family structure
>Demons regularly call Frieren a bitch or get mad at her when she kills them, to which they have no reason to do so.
So what if Dacht called her a bitch? It's just words
>Aura whimpering and crying when being forced to kill herself.
Frieren says she has heard demons cry and shout out for forgiveness many many times she has killed them. The demon child shows you it's just a survival tactic, Solitar discusses doing it with Frieren. It's how they try to survive, play on human emotions
>Aura being mad that Frieren was hiding her Mana.
Not sure
>Lugner even calls her a coward.
Not sure the relevance of these, demons displaying mana as a symbol of status was clearly established and the fact they would never hide theirs, pretty much explains why they would be against it. It's just the opposite of demon nature

>>283337470
Ok, so they feel at least emotions comparable to humans, but lack important ones like remorse and guilt leading to them as being impulsively dangerous?

I'm struggling to see where OP is wrong here. It sounds like they do experience something akin to human experience. It's just important aspects of that experience aren't oriented towards human wellbeing.

I thought >>283336347 might have been onto something, where it's like an animal just doing stuff no-matter what, but if we're getting internal monologue that makes that argument moot..


>>283337551
Is Schlact a demon, and did they sacrifice themself in the same vein as a person sacrificing themself for humankind? ..Because if so, that would lend credence to my above understanding of demons in this world..

>>283337535
>>283337535
It's me again, Schizo anon! I'm back, don't mind me I misplaced my meds so I'm spiraling like a retard right now!

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>>283337736
>I'm struggling to see where OP is wrong here
His entire point was about demons having human emotions, but demons don't have human emotions because they are not humans. This is quite clearly expressed in the previous image, Macht wants to learn more about humans and in particular human emotions. And he thinks he is feeling 'affection' towards humans while making two children kill each other.
We, humans, know this isn't affection but Macht thinks it is. It's something he will never be able to feel, even if he can recognise it in others. The best he could ever do is mimic it but never feel it genuinely, this idea is the keystone of an entire arc.

>>283337709
>Curiousity
So they express curiosity about language beyond just using it for deception? Which directly contradicts the demon telling us they only use language to hunt and kill?
>You mean Solitar, she literally says 'I lied' after this. She's lies and lies so much. The true embodiment of pic rel
She's saying and doing these things when human beings aren't even around. How is she trying to decieve people? Can you pull up the manga panel where its stated she lied?
>Of course they don't want to die, no animal does. It's just a survival tactic, the story with the demon child showed your that
So they genuinely don't want to die. If their internal feelings are matching their external ones, that's a contradiction because we're told they're being deceptive by doing this.
>They are trying to survive through deception. The child shouts 'mother' because they know it triggers an emotional reaction from the human, but it means nothing to the demon since they have no family structure
They have had thousands of years to figure out what a mother is and yet they haven't. They're also smart enough to engage in complex political talks with other races. They're lying out of self preservation, again, contradicting the idea they only use language to hunt and kill.
>So what if Dacht called her a bitch? It's just words
What survival benefit does that give them? They're expressing emotions when no benefit to them is given, in fact going against them.
>Frieren says she has heard demons cry and shout out for forgiveness many many times she has killed them. The demon child shows you it's just a survival tactic, Solitar discusses doing it with Frieren. It's how they try to survive, play on human emotions
Re-read my points above.
>Not sure
Yes actually, they are visibly disgusted and angry at her.
>Not sure the relevance of these,
They're displaying pride and arrogance, two complex and very human emotions.

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>>283337977
>She's saying and doing these things when human beings aren't even around. How is she trying to decieve people? Can you pull up the manga panel where its stated she lied?

Read the manga, bro. She lies all the time

>>283337921
>Why would you continue to kill humans of you wish to coexist with them?
>Why would you ask me such a thing?
Lmfao. The series can't even answer its own contradictions and constantly deflects away from them. The writing is so shit.

>>283338060
She literally says in an earlier chapter that she hated the Demon King's war because it killed her friends.

>>283337921
>. And he thinks he is feeling 'affection' towards humans while making two children kill each other.
>We, humans, know this isn't affection but Macht thinks it is.
I guess now I'm confused. So this demon (presumably) knows how and when to express a mimicry of "affection ", but is so completely lost about its true "meaning" as it applies to humans that he's unable to employ it here?

I'm honestly am starting to see what OP means about there being a narrative dissonance.

When I first read that page, my assumption was either:
A) He was talking in a broad sense (that he can feel these emotions, but is for narrative purposes not employing it here because it acts somewhat as a statement about how we can feel affection towards a pet pig, and slaughter other pigs for food)
or
B) His understanding of affection is oriented in a perverted way (relative to us humans). In the same way a mother could "love" their child so much that they molest and rape them.

if the true meaning of this page is to showcase that this character is actually completely devoid of understanding of affection that does seem to be a little strange given how adept they (presumably are) in other area's of the story.

I guess my next two questions would be:
1) Is this character shown to be adept at mimicking human emotion in order to feed/survive.
2) Are any of my other presumptions stated above off base?

>>283338111
>says in an earlier chapter that she hated the Demon King's war because it killed her friends
Which she follows up with 'I lied'

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>>283338077
That's the point numskull
The concept of 'coexistence' for demons is totally at odds with the human term
For him they would be toys he can play with and throw away whenever bored of them, that's not co-existence. He thinks his interest in them is enough and cannot understand why Frieren questions this, because to him it's demon nature and very natural. To humans it's extremely dangerous.

>>283338296
He doesn't actually answer the question and the series never gives us one. The series continously defaults back to "They're just demons, evil and we can't understand them. Its in their nature" which is apparently something they cannot overcome, even though humans and other races clearly can. They're shown to be sentient, morally capable beings. There's no reason they couldn't adopt another moral code if they tried, but the series never explains why they simply cannot do this in a way that wouldn't apply to other characters who can.

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>>283337736
Schlact is a demon, the right hand man of the demon king, and he can read the future. He purposefully goes into a battle knowing he will die, because apparently, it's the only way to ensure demons survive a thousand years into the future. Maybe he's only like that because he can read the future and knows his death is unavoidable, but he's still says he's doing it for the sake of demonkind. So it seems self-sacrifice for the species is something demons can feel, but again, maybe its just Schlact.

>>283338164
This is also happening in the same arc where a consistent theme is that "Nothing is impossible". We see Frieren give up several times because she thinks something is impossible, but then another character convinces her that it isn't. But then continously dismisses demons and humans coexisting as impossible.

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>>283338451

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>>283323792
What do you want? Demons have hearts and demonic behavior is okay because of shitlib "moral ambiguity?" Hamfisted liberal shit all over again. Yeah Demon Slayers' morality is more complete and well written, but Frieren's simplicity is not so bad either. You shouldn't compromise with evil.

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The actual problem with demons is that too many of are cowardly mages, if more of them were based warriors like Rivale, there'd be no issue

>>283338451
>>283338488
Interesting, well at least your honest about it being a peculiarity.

Any anons have a dissenting opinion on this characterization?

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>>283338481
>But then continously dismisses demons and humans coexisting as impossible.
Because it was tried before

>>283338595
He doesn't actually answer the question and the series never gives us one. The series continously defaults back to "They're just demons, evil and we can't understand them. Its in their nature" which is apparently something they cannot overcome, even though humans and other races clearly can. They're shown to be sentient, morally capable beings. There's no reason they couldn't adopt another moral code if they tried, but the series never explains why they simply cannot do this in a way that wouldn't apply to other characters who can.

I think Evil Genefag may have a point but Aura cryingfag aka. OP is just engagement baiting which muddles the issue that demons do have an Evil Gene. I wonder how many shows have monsters with an Evil Gene and we don't notice since it's not pointed out.

>>283323792
i don't really care
i just want a spinoff where aura and frieren are roommates in college and aura is always the responsible caretaker and frieren sleeps all the time but is secretly the genius of the two

>>283338541
is there any meaningful difference between rivale and the battlesexual archetype, like akuma or yujiro?

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Enough baitposting

>>283338493
Better writing is what I want.

>>283338352
That’s because the writers are lazy and leave things open ended for the sake of “leaving things up to interpretation”.

Frieren isn’t a deep series. People like it because they don’t have to think too hard. The ones that do end up overhyping it more than it needs to be.

>>283339020
That's way too much emotion out of frieren

>>283339655
Tell that to the people that over analyze it to pretend like it's far deeper than it actually is.

>>283340021
>>283339655
It's a stupid show that's only just smart enough for retards to think it's clever. It's for people who get distracted by themes at the expense of story because "THEMES ARE DEEP" and they can say it's about accepting this and that or growing close to whomever and you wouldn't be wrong but it's also just not a good story.

>>283340126
I'm frankly amazed at how many people this show hoodwinked into thinking it was a well written show. Are peoples standards just so low now? Is it just reactionaries online who like the demon killing stuff?

everytime i see people talk about how something is not intellectually stimulating enough for them, i think back to that one tom_bwady screenshot picture of the carving of the dragon tail and the sculpture of a man fellating himself, and what it all really means

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>Best selling manga of the decade
>Highest rated anime of all time
>S2 likely to be even better than s1
stay absolutely SEETHEing, brownoids lmao

>>283340449
>Popularity is quality!
Out of arguments already?

>>283340021
What if it isn't that black-and-white and there are good parts but also flaws in a show?

>>283340021
You dont have to tell me. There's this one youtuber that makes it his whole personality to glaze every background detail of the show. Just glancing through the thumbnails title reeks of pretentious video essayist

>>283340861
https://youtu.be/Gs3FFGOzOfU?si=XWnbPji2jhXZvSx4

Is it this guy? Lmao.

>>283340910
Yea thats the one. Let's see what videos he's made about since then. Shonen, dandandan, csm, one piece, sao, solo leveling. Uh huh, still doing the same shit

>>283341094
There's a video about him applying the golden ratio to different scenes in Frieren to talk about how well directed the anime is. Holy fuck.

>>283341094
https://youtu.be/x5yufgHql4E?si=moio0a3YgItGBzaO

>Noooo it's not boring it's actually on purpose!!!

>>283340861
>>283341396
it reminds me of how badly people glaze Dark Souls. Where they'll go into over analytical detail about how meaningful ever stupid little detail is and how it's flaws, which any other game would be garbage for, is actually BRILLIANT here.

There's no contradictions in the narrative if you consider demons can feel a few emotions.
>demons can feel a couple of emotions like pride and fear, perhaps their own versions of those emotions
>demons obviously do not mimic to each other when no human is present
>Aura genuinely did cry out of frustration, at least if she was trying to save herself she would try more than crocodile tears Frieren isn't looking at
>they do not understand every emotion however, they don't know how to name the ones they do have
>the mindsets they've evolved are completely alien to every other race, this is what makes them dangerous
>demons have shown genuine interest in co-existence, but it leads to disaster because they don't understand human social structure or the values of each individual life

>>283342166
You don't need to make it a matter of what they can or can't feel just as a species they have different beliefs and priorities. ey're not raised to.

>>283342166
Except that it's stated they can't feel emotions numerous times.

>>283343108
>[citation needed]

>>283323792
they don't have any emotions
the anger and will-to-live is just copied from humans
they're just a subconscious force of nature that's trying to replicate
their teamwork is just a copy, too

>hey don't know what a father is
neither does anyone until he becomes one
or have a proximate family relation
demons know it from the outside, not the inside

>insane right wing reactionaries
>you're just a /pol/ tard
just arguments, mate

>>283343278
Find literally any chapter from the manga where demons are encountered.

>>283344182
>no citation given
I accept your concession.

>>283344397
It's literally in any page of the manga mentioning demons. This claim is so self evident that it doesn't need direct citation.

I think this guy is the same mob-psycho shitposter who keeps acting like he doesn't get the point of the story. Same post style and reasoning.

>>283344482
>i-it's there somewhere I swear!

>>283343108
By the characters that want demon extermination the most. It's propaganda from Flamme to make people more receptive to demon genocide. The traits demons have make them come across as a pitiful people you want to feel bad for and try to fix, demons prey on that. It would be easier if people thought they were just machines, no emotions or any real thoughts.

>>283344635
The show never frames that idea as being wrong, which is a moral dilemma and a problem.

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>>283336720
I don't give a shit what niggerjews on twitter are saying desu

>>283344680
I was explaining how if you critique the demons in Frieren, you'll get swarmed by retarded reactionaries and fans.

>>283344673
It's wrong in that Flamme is greatly exaggerating their worst qualities. Demons are dangerous and it would be better for humanity if they were extinguished, but they aren't the master manipulators and soulless machines she presents them as.

>>283344830
There lies the problem. If the demons are sentient, then they have the ability to change their beliefs, but the series never explains why they simply cannot do this.

>>283335661
no this is not true, tigers don't actively hunt humans, it's well-studied feline psychology. tigers that have either gained a taste for humans, or humans have encroached on their territory, etc. actively hunt for humans not always for food but just to hurt them and kill them too. leopards are the ones who are the real assholes.

>>283340755
What's actually good about it? It's generic in literally every possible way a fantasy setting and series could possibly be.

>>283344900
>If the demons are sentient, then they have the ability to change their beliefs, but the series never explains why they simply cannot do this
It's not a matter of belief, the problem is they did not evolve the same minds as humans, they struggle with empathizing with humans even harder than elves do. Due to their long lifespans, elves don't value time or reproduction as much as humans do, but they do possess some ability to get along with humans. Demons evolved from monsters that used mimicry to prey on humans, while they are more intelligent now and are even taking on human-like forms, they have a lot of difficulty empathizing with what was once prey, they don't even know where to start. With how fast their evolution seems to be going, the empathetic demon might be born one day, but no one knows for sure how long that will take or how much more humans have to suffer before then.

>>283345687
Literally none of that refutes anything I've said. If they're sentient, then they have the ability to change their beliefs, therefore, they shouldn't be all considered pure evil. Frieren considers them all pure evil, and the narrative never once shows her as wrong for believing this. That's where the dilemma comes in.

>>283345500
There are few shows that you can say are flawless. In this case we're questioning if there is a flaw in the characterization of demons. But the idea that a demon can mimic humans without being themselves humans is pretty novel. In a fully generic show they'd just be evil and the writer would be done with it.

>>283346070
And yet it's very poorly executed and contradictory to the point where a literal five year old could pick up on the contradictions.

>>283324934
I came to the conclusion some short time ago that /a/ is filled with the anime watching equivalent of
>How would you feel if You didnt have breakfast today
>What do you mean, I had breakfast today
Anytime someone complains about an anime like this in general, just remember youre most likely dealing with an anon who literally cannot fathom such nuances, let alone discuss them.

>>283346096
There are few shows where you won't find someone going "why didn't Frodo fly the eagles to Mordor?" People who praise are praising the good parts.

>>283346342
There's very few good parts with Frieren. It doesn't do anything particularly well.

>>283340439
post it

Are there people that like Frieren that think the demon stuff is genuinely coherent and it all makes sense to them? I don't want to use this shit as a gotcha on message boards, I just sincerely read all the way up to the current arc and I never took the demon stuff that seriously and it always seemed incoherent to me, more or less like OP said although I guess he was trolling.

If you just like it even though you also never really felt like it was coherent that's fine too. I actually like the current arc more or less and I don't hate the manga overall. But I don't know if there are fans that think the demon stuff is all perfectly fitting and sensible.

>>283347542
>Like OP said although I guess he was trolling.
Literally nothing OP said was incorrect.

>>283347942
t. op

>>283347542
It's not as incoherent as OP makes it out to be (nothing the author establishes about them really contradicts itself), but it makes sense why you'd be bothered by how ''simplistic'' they are and its odd how few demons considered just not killing humans and acting like Macht to coexist with them as humans would have little reasons to bother fighting them if they didn't attack them since demons are so much stronger than humans (especially strong demons like Macht). In a way having sentient creatures that are this long lived and powerful all act so fucking retarded when it seems like survivng is mostly their number one priority does feel kind of like shitty writing and I get why people are bothered by them. Then again, the series is far from being finished and the author could still do more with them (like introducing mutations in a few that let them empathize with others thus creating conflict by forcing Frieren to reconsider her view of them).

>>283348173
Okay, then what was OP wrong about?

>>283347942
I don't really care if the guy is trying to be annoying by reposting the same points every 12 hours for years.

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>>283325590
My fucking VILLAIN Kogan

>>283348228
1/2
From what I remember off the top of my head:
Demons are described as monsters that can speak.
They have emotions (fear, anger, probably a bunch of others); what they don't understand is malice, guilt, any sense of morality and empathy. This is almost certainly biological and cannot be changed through conditioning. Lying to and killing humans is as natural as breathing to them and thus if you forced them to never maliciously harm another creature you wouldn't do anything to restrict them in that regard as they don't do these things while feeling any to begin with.
They almost always start acting like they regret their actions, play up their fear, beg for lives, etc. when they are killed. They all do it in a way that, if you didn't know them, might seem believable and thus any scene where a demon is showing something that contradicts things like them not feeling guilt, etc. when they're about to get killed isn't evidence of them having these things in the first place.
They aren't like other human races (elves, dwarves, humans) and when they die they disappear completely like other monsters. They developed their human like elements through convergent evolution and thus only appear like they're very close to being human when they're mostly completely differnt (a dragon or a dog is more likely to feel empathy for a human than a demon).
People like Macht, that try to understand humans better and try to know what guilt, malice, etc. are so as to possibly coexist with humans, kill the most humans as they are constantly trying to be around humans and don't mind killing as many as it takes if its pursuit of that (Luegner and other demons are willing to let humans leave a lot of times as they can't be bothered to deal with killing individual humans constantly; humans are more like annoying insects to them).
Demons could not kill humans in theory, but if you lack the aformentioned emotions, enjoy eating humans and are almost always stronger than them,

>>283348228
>>283348684
2/2
then why would you even bother? If humans can't stop themselves from eating animals despite having all of those emotions demons lack, why would demons suddenly (individually btw as they have no collective) decide to do so?

>>283348684
>>283348724
Part of the entire problem with the series' characterization of demons is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil. Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.

The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.

>>283348228
OP's made 200 threads with the same pasta that "muh Aura cried" that has been debunked all the 200 times and in this thread if you bother to look up. It can be easily explained by,
>They mimic out of habit even when humans aren't around. It's a form of training. Some species do that.
>I bet his tiny brain hasn't once thought of why Frieren turned her back on Aura when she started calling out and crying
The whole bringing up Aura is nonsense. Aura has a reason to cry, i.e. a last resort to gain sympathy and trick her into stopping. Frieren's trained to recognize this. He keeps bringing up Aura even when that's the part that makes the most sense out of demons and has been explained to him AND to you if you had read the thread. Demons are a lot like OP. OP will throw bait to get (you)s. There's no reason for OP to bring up Aura again other than getting (You)s. It's a ploy, he recognizes it gets (You)s and on the surface it looks like he's participating in an argument but actually it's a mimicky of it.

>>283349141
Why the fuck would Aura cry when she knows that Frieren has no reason to believe her? Frieren turned around just so it'd look "Badass and cool" and the story could jack her off more.

literally the same type of fucks that have spent the last 80 years raising up a stink about Tolkien's works in academia are now influencing the fledgling brainlets who consume media to do the same thing with shit like Frieren...

>>283349141
>>They mimic out of habit even when humans aren't around. It's a form of training. Some species do that.
And if that's the case, and they're doing it to the point where it endangers their own life, then there's functionally zero difference between the mimicked emotion and the real thing.

>>283349207
Even animals with no real intelligence feel fear and pain.

>>283349247
Last time I checked, animals don't engage in complex geopolitics. Wild beasts are not intelligent and able to communicate with other species. Wild beasts do not understand human morality or strictly adhere to their own. Wild beasts do not possess all the components necessary to adopt human morals. Demons do. They are incomparable to animals.

Are we just going to keep recycling the same arguments over and over?

>>283349280
you keep repeating what you learned from GPT as if it means anything. where did the demons in frieren engage in complex geopolitics? plenty of animals communicate interspecies. demons don't adhere to their own morality, they are just acting on instinct and learned behaviors. demons are genocidal pseudo-intelligent pseudo-sentient predators that must be wiped off the face of the earth, just as we would do to humans if they acted this way. that is the moral and ethical things to do.

>>283349349
>where did the demons in frieren engage in complex geopolitics
When Soltar negotiated with a human leader.
>plenty of animals communicate interspecies
Except they aren't as intelligent or sentient as demons are clearly shown to be. They're incomparable to animals.
>demons don't adhere to their own morality, they are just acting on instinct and learned behaviors
The series literally says that they have morality, by Soltar saying that she hated the demon kings war because it killed her friends, and Lugner saying that they think hiding mana is a lowly thing to do.

>>283349207
It's almost like it's answered in the first quote?
Emergent behavior. If you evolve around crying in such situations, you aren't going to "turn off". It becomes a habit. It's just a thing your species does and there's nothing to "turn off" to. Also >>283336347. In fact, you're suggesting she stops based on her "guess" that it won't work on Frieren but actually there's no benefit to stopping, it's smarter to keep going in case her emotional reading of Frieren is wrong. It's one of those things explained by an instinctual behavior. Imagine a demon does an "emotional guess" wrong which can easily happen and dies?

>>283349443
I do like how you forgot to address the final point :) Now fuck off back to whatever academic anti-tolkien hole you crawled out of and shitted up the board like clockwork.

>>283349598
If they're sentient, then they have the ability to change their beliefs and simply not be evil anymore. That's where the dilemma comes in.
>>283349591
Then there is functionally zero difference between the mimicked emotion and the real thing. Especially if they're doing it to the point where it endangers their own life.

>>283349637
>then they have the ability to change their beliefs and simply not be evil anymore
why is that a dilemma? If you are trying to apply our world's systems of philosophy onto this works of barely fleshed out fiction, then why not apply the same principles that humans have applied to other humans who committed atrocities and entire ethnicities, nationalities, races, etc. were punished for it as a result?

>>283349733
>why is that a dilemma?
Because if a species is sentient, and they have all the components to change their beliefs, then they shouldn't all be genocided without remorse.

>283349637
I was talking to >>283348228 who claims to not be OP but after all it is just OP samefagging with lazy nitpicking copypastas again so I lost interest. I already answered it on the 1% chance that post isn't OP.

>>283349769
why does your premise lead to that conclusion? why is it that if a species is capable of sentience and maybe consciousness, then they shouldn't be genocided for their actions as a species? we've done it for far less in our own world.

>>283349825
Are you actually arguing in good faith or just pretending to be retarded?

>>283349867
I am 100% arguing in good faith. If you want to apply earthly logic and philosophy and ethics and morals and principles to a poorly written work of fiction that's meant to be native isekai tolkien-esque for children, then at least apply everything fairly and not nitpick what is convenient for your argument.

>>283350167
Because if a species is sentient, and they have all the components to change their beliefs, then they shouldn't all be genocided without remorse.

>>283350187
You're just literally repeating the same thing. You have provided no supporting premise of how you reach that conclusion. You're the one who is arguing like a bot.

>>283350207
Because if you have sentience, and intelligence, then you have all the free will that comes with that, and that includes the ability to change your beliefs. Demons shouldn't all be treated as evil if they're clearly shown to be sentient.

>>283350230
Yeah well demons don't, so nyeh.

>>283350253
Except they clearly do.

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>>283323792
Can I kill them with my shotgun?

>>283323792
>They don't understand human emotions, and yet their entire modus operandi is manipulating people's emotions?
What is a psychopath?

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>>283350230
>i got tricked into believing these deception monsters are sentient so now they're a protected species
this your village?

>>283351148
Frierentards only like her mary sue protagonist for normalfaggots seaniggers retards and horrible story with Tolkien garbage. With better literature like the Quijote. Hahaha no wonder they coonsomer basedboy cucks

>>283352258
>so mindbroken you're typing in tongues

>>283323792
Author sort of messed up. Demons should be human mimics who can perfectly mimic humans and human emotions, but in reality they are just really really advanced songbirds who can sing the correct human song with limited context clues.
Just a few scenes of a Demon glitching out, where it just did not make any sense all of a sudden due to an injury or by being tricked would make them feel really goddamn eerie.
As it stands, Demons are just autistic aliens.