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>Were they retarded?
no
it was their last solution, and the system works in a fairly stable way as long as a treacherous bitch who thinks she knows better than anyone doesn't pop up. their only mistake was not killing enough

>>283526156
Cuz they were greedy and wanted cantus, the best choice was to GMO a virus that kills all catus users and exterminate them

>>283526198
Nigga everybody got it, how do you even do that? When it first appeared they probably didn't have the technology to do that

The only good thing about this show was the ED.

>>283526671
You dumb nigger the show was good from start to end. Almost nothing compares to its value on an aesthetic and conceptual level.

>>283526700
ok lol

>>283526617
They literally GMO’d all of non canti into rats, how do you even claim them not capable

>>283526700
Gay

>>283526156
squealer probably had the worst death imaginable out of any anime series i've seen. a literal hell where they keep him alive indefinitely and tortured him daily until he was finally pity killed.

>>283526156
>constantly
really? Karma demons aside (who still have the death feedback), the last psycho fiend (I forgot their name) was like 200 years ago or so when the chief was a nurse. A lot get culled under suspicion and thus it looks like there are lots of psychos but that's only because the people in charge are quite paranoid (and with good reason)

one of the actual few good shows out there in the sea of blob

>>283528910
I forget, did they ever specify that the culling rules became as strict as they were shown thanks to the instances of murderous psychers showing up and threatening what human societies remained, or were they always that strict but it was just bad luck or an anomaly when someone popped up and caused trouble?

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>>283526156
Since the Death Feedback is supposed to activate when they think they're killing a human, which makes it not activate when killing queerats, or activate by mistake when tricked by imagery and so on, it makes sense to me that serial killers who don't see people as people would be exempt from it. It'd only block other kinds of murderous intent.

One day, Squealer's spirit will rise from the grave and everyone will see he was right.

>>283528964
I adore this anime, the writing was so good and it has such good directing choices. One of my favorite shows of all time.

>>283528964
Hate that they left the boys kissing in, but took the mother-daughter sex out.

>>283529648
What?

>>283529016
Apparently the cats started being bred after the incident in the hospital to kill potential fiends because there are people that just can't be helped ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nobody (in the village) has ever seen a fiend apart from Tomiko who isn't directly in charge of the culling, but it stands to reason that the people who are in charge know about the incident and its implications.
So the culling is relatively new but the phenomenon of being a fiend is as old as death feedback, and very popular in the world. Before the culling there was only the psychological studies that mostly work but it's not perfect.

I'm going by what I remember from the anime but it was a while ago so I might be misremembering some details.

>>283529394
Wasn't this also why they killed the kid who showed clear sociopathic tendencies?

>>283526700
Don't care. Got filtered by the g*y episode.

>>283530121
The irony is that the gayness in shinsekaiyori actually serves a narrative purpose, unlike some netflix sloppy shit where it's just there for the sake of being gay.

>>283530121
It made you feel lonely? :(

>>283526156
It was a retarded solution for a non issue, likely an overreaction from when their powers first manifested a thousand years prior (if not something worse).

>>283526197
>the system fails as soon as one person disobeys
Sounds like a poor system to me

>>283530581
Yeah except it didn't
Nta but if you paid attention, they learned from their mistakes and basically their whole educational system was built to weed out people who would "disobey" the system, it was a major plot point
Things went to shit only because there was a cascading shitstorm that required every piece to fall just right, starting from the cast deciding to side with a specific rat that turned out to be undercover Frantz Fanon and a real human bean

>>283526156
>screenshot straight from google images
Why not use a screenshot from the anime, do you not have it on hand, if so why are you talking about it?
What are there so many super low effort threads like this, do these fags just want to bury other threads?

>>283531714
Blame phone posting

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>>283529435
I will reincarnate as squealer to finish what he started
Justice

>>283532528
THD

>>283530784
Yes and then that system produced whole crops of people incapable of dealing with Emergencies and caused them to risk getting wiped out almost as much as the Fiend did.

>>283533924
Except they dealt with everything, outside the specific cascading event the series portrays, which they still won by the way
Even Saki chooses to reluctantly work within the system because she logically realizes their world is so fucked up it's the only thing that has proven to provide some stability

>>283535073
by a hairs fuckin breath yeah. Fiend wiped a whole technologically advanced village first and honestly the queerats didnt even need the fiend for a while. Meanwhile if you imagine the opposite scenario, the queerats would have absolutely destroyed a single hostile fiend even if they did have Death Feedback against it, they'd have still killed it quickly.

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>>283533924
>system le bad because it successfully deals with the problems it was created to counter and wins every time
Okay??

>>283535218
>the queerats would have absolutely destroyed a single hostile fiend even if they did have Death Feedback against it, they'd have still killed it quickly
They couldn't even wipe a couple of kids in the first arc tho
Literally the only fault of the system besides being inherently immoral was that they managed to piss off the single rat that was smart enough to hit back. The society functioned as it was expected to until it encountered a thread it wasn't designed to counter as a sum of all events

>>283529394

Schizophrenia, Depression and other mental illnesses completely fuck up the world when Cantus users get them, and it overrides any controls on it.

That's the basic jist of why this shit doesn't work. Cantus turns humans into a biological dead end who are too complex to handle its power and will invariably drive themselves to extinction.

Was the cantus worth it?

>>283536066
Telekinetic masturbating though

The gay kiss scene made my penis hard :(

>>283536037
It was both, Karma Demons were serious mental illnesses and Fiends were psychopaths.

>>283536429
Good

>>283526156
>all you had to do was raise a feral child
what about autists and literal retards? they lack cognitive functions to recognise people

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>you can't kill other humans because muh brain washing
i dont see the problem

>>283536630
Cat food

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>>283536659
>i don't see th--
Also cat food

>>283536630
That was a big plot point, they are killed as soon as there is a slight suspicion of them having mental issues.

>>283536066
Not really, but they are the ones who won the war against normal people
We can even say that the PKers are mutated humans who enslaved the original ones and disfigured them.

Could I use the cantus to shoot insane amounts of sperm? Asking for a friend

>>283536801
You can as long as you are a super talented user.

>>283536849
You just know there's a phase in every teenager's life when they try to increase their penis size with the powers
Like that's bound to happen with everyone, so statistically some are successful and have now a magic gigapenis

>>283536799
It's been a while but if I recall there were 3 factions, normal humans, Cantus users (basically mutated humans) that enslaved them (the mad emperor that appears in the flashback being one of them), and a third faction of Cantus scientists that took over and socio-engineered the current civilization their pseudo-Buddhist religion, the "seals" around the villages, transforming the normal humans into rats, etc.
I always loved a tiny detail that I noticed in one of my rewatches, that when the rats rebel and kill the fat fuck in the festival, the show momentarily takes on the artstyle used for the flashback scene where the (human) ninjas kill the mad emperor. It's especially noticeable on the way the explosions are animated.

>>283536918
The show and especially novel is full of details like that you miss if you aren't paying attention, it's great
My favorite bit is that iirc the novel implies the last phases of non-canti humans became very religious to cope with the world being shit, so the biological weapon container in the end is crucifix shaped

>>283537009
Is there a proper translation of the novel?

>>283537080
I don't know what you count as proper, but there is at least a fan translation I read like a decade ago, and I'm not moon enough to compare notes whether it fucks the prose up or something

>>283536918
You are remembering right.
Pk mutation started to be a bit more common, but still rare enough to be a minority, however they are strong enough to be a solo batallion.
This led to the destruction of society because you only need a few greedy and sociopathic pkers to sow chaos, it first started with discrimination every pkers due to the acts of a few and things escalated, destroying modern society.
Normal human kingdoms, Pker empire, bandits and weak societies, the last two having pkers and regular humans being more or less equal.
Then there was a third faction, mostly composed of pkers who wanted to keep humanity so they developed a way to bioengineer pkers to use their own powers to kill themselves if they harm humans.
Pkers won the war and fully conquered the world, enslaving the non pker race, but then it came the issue of infighting so they took the bioengeneering route and a new problem was born. Non pkers can't kill themselves on command because they don't have the power to instant kill them (it's kinda implied that you can make them hyperventilate, but is not a surefire way to kill them as using pk to stop your bodily functions) and the solution was the bakenezumi.
Then there are more fucked up issues. Pk parents don't guarantee that a pk baby will be born so they have to be killed. Psychos who don't see other humans as humans don't trigger the suicide mechanism. Pkers who can't control their powers will passively kill everyone.
The solution for that were the bakeneko.
Ironically, the pk suicide mechanism and the bakeneko degradation was a way to give them equal chances of fighting, but it was an excuse at the end. Pkers won the war. We can go as far as saying that Pk slaver empire are the current dominant civilization.

I can understand them killing the ones who showed sociopathic tendencies but wasn't it implied that MC's siblings and a bunch of other kids got killed due to being too shit at using their powers? That part seemed a bit extreme.

>>283526156
I got filtered by this pretty bad when the library critter just lore-dumped for an entire episode and revealed all the mysteries that were being set up.

Just started watching this now, a couple of eps in.
I'll probably have a lot more questions at the end but for now what stuck to me was: How did the monk guy (who sealed the kids powers and destroyed the "library") blow himself up on the final queerrat he faced? I thought I saw him create a barrier around himself the last second. Was it nothing more than the death feedback weakening him more than he thought or what did the queerrat do something?

>>283539034
A key part of their utopian society is predicated on everyone having the same, insanely versatile set of powers. An emerging class of under- or non-powered individuals could wind up resentful of their weakness or otherwise be targets for discrimination, either of which could threaten the larger social order.

>>283539118
The show is not really about discovering those things as a twist. It looks like its going to be some mystery where the school age children discover the truth about their setting but it's different.

>>283539034
Death feedback uses cantus so the idea is that if the user's cantus isn't strong enough death feedback might not trigger properly.

>>283529914
Exactly.

>>283539198
They still seemed to vary highly among each other in how strong their powers were iirc, especially with that one guy being well known as the strongest user.

Also probably the dumbest part of the premise is that once they reach a certain age they are immune from getting force aborted and can do whatever the fuck they want, but then they traumatize the shit out of young adults by murdering their children on repeat, every other mother would have already snapped and saw red and just murdered everyone without triggering the suicide mechanism from how much their views would get warped from all the trauma.

>>283539389
Obviously they just weed those parents who are not both mentally and genetically strong enough to deal with the loss of their offspring, and are worse yet incapable of producing viable cantus users to the society.

>>283539238
That's unfortunate, because this rat war stuff it's apparently actually about fucking sucks.

>>283539451
Weed them out how, MCs mother was shown on the verge of cracking and they didn't have an infinite amount of cats, I doubt that she was an isolated case either with how feelings-based their society was supposed to be, the setting is pretty nonsensical. The suicide mechanism also doesn't mean shit if they obliterate half a village or city block before it kicks in, almost every mass shooter irl goes in with the knowledge they're gonna die, and these guys are armed with far more than guns and have a lot more reasons to snap than the average workplace shooter. It would have made way more sense if they took away everyone's babies at birth and raise them separately until they're sure they pass all the criteria.

The problem with squealer's rebellion is that had it not failed, it would have fallen eventually to a karma demon or fiend running around unchecked as they have no system for weeding them out and their war with the cantus users. In fact they were incredibly lucky mamoru and saki's child turned out to have a functional death feedback, as otherwise they would have been wiped before being able to launch their attack.

The problem with cantus society is that objectively their society is impossible. I don't believe everyone there has a deathback so strong they get unbearable pain from thinking about hurting others yet at same time have an organised system for culling dozens and hundreds of kids on the regular; logically they wouldn't even be able to entertain the possibility.

>>283539637
They literally kill anyone with the wrong psychological profile.
A mass shooter that isn't a psychopath would get sick at the mere thought of committing the act and he'd be detected, they can detect mental illnesses and the like so they'd detect someone getting sick from the feedback.
I don't think the setting has any holes.

>>283539697
Everyone has a functional death feedback, it's just that psychopaths bypass it because it only applies to the feeling of "killing people". Mentally ill Cantus users also do damage due to their unchecked emotions and breakdowns.
The Messiah isn't a true Fiend. I assume Squealer would have to kill them eventually, which sounds like a pretty realistic goal to me given the progress they were making.

>>283539637
>The suicide mechanism also doesn't mean shit if they obliterate half a village or city block before it kicks in
That's not how it works. Death feedback triggers based on intent, you'd be dead long before you could do any damage.

>>283539697
>The problem with cantus society is that objectively their society is impossible. I don't believe everyone there has a deathback so strong they get unbearable pain from thinking about hurting others yet at same time have an organised system for culling dozens and hundreds of kids on the regular; logically they wouldn't even be able to entertain the possibility.

Yeah this is where the show entirely lost me.

>A mass shooter that isn't a psychopath would get sick at the mere thought of committing the act
Because people's views are impossible to change over time? Was every genocide conducted by sociopaths? Dehumanizing someone is the most common tactic to get ordinary people to commit mass slaughter, let alone just contemplate it.

>I don't think the setting has any holes.
>violently murdering countless children via cat: :)
>murder in any other capacity and for any other reason: :(

Yeah idk about that one.

>>283539813
Why did they die when accidentally killing human shaped dummies if it works based on intent?

when will we get a another modern classic like Shit Sekai Yaoi?

>>283539901
>Yeah idk about that one.
Nta but the large point especially in how they eventually tried to kill the fiend was that it had to be done through methods that are removed from the act of killing itself. You can disagree with the degree on separation necessary for that based on vibes I guess, but the show is basically just asking questions on what methods people use to convince themselves that their hands are clean and it's definitely a focus point
>>283539939
Did they? I recall only the monk getting ill when the library terminal flashed the image of suffering woman as a defense mechanism. Which makes total sense

Man this was such a good show and the fact it's based on an award-winning novel really shows. I really wish studios would adapt more interesting stories like this one instead of chasing the latest LN trends.

>>283539939
Because death feedback determines intent by the guilt someone would feel if they murdered someone. You'd still feel guilty if you though you killed someone even if it was by accident.

This is also why fiends are immune to death feedback, they can intentionally kill people without dying because they don't feel any guilt.

>>283540099
>the show is basically just asking questions on what methods people use to convince themselves that their hands are clean and it's definitely a focus point

This is where it completely fails though as there's a billion different ways people could convince themselves that their hands are clean, so something like that would never last for any length of time. And the same goes in reverse, like imagine you're a teacher grading someone's performance and they're right on the line between passing and failing and you know your decision is the difference between them dying a violent death and getting to enter society, how would most teachers who aren't complete retards not die on the spot if they condemned them? It makes no sense at all.

>Did they
I remember a scene where the rats put up some human looking dummies during their attack and the humans who lashed out at them and hit the dummies by accident died.

>>283539034
The suicide mechanism works by using your pk against yourself. A normal human will only hyperentilate, but it won't guarantee the complete stop of your bodily functions.
Not every pker kids are guaranteed to be mutants and some manifest only weak power so they have to be killed too.

>>283539193
You will learn more as you watch, but I think you should have figured it out now he killed himself, that's what the death feedback does.

>>283540277
In your teacher example is because is not determined by one final test and is a sum of things which nobody knows whose score was the biggest failing remark.

>>283540168
The problem is that if you make a shitty adaptation of a good story then you will have a professional death.

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>>283526156
Could everything have been saved by breeding more (or stronger) cat types? They solve everything. Why have a low number? Did they have a chance of rebelling too? They're just cats. Make more cats. Make bigger cats.

>>283540406
That's where a bunch of mental gymnastics comes in, that's literally what they do in shooting squads where only some bullets are live live bullets. If it's that easy for every teacher to not feel responsible on the basis that they only contributed to someone's death up to a certain point what's stopping everyone else from doing it? Get a group of people and have everyone do a separate action that alone isn't dangerous but put together ends up killing someone, if it works for teachers it will work for anyone. And even besides that, like I said I don't think only born psychopaths are capable of being remorseless murderers or altering their state of mind to the point where they don't see who they're killing as human.

>>283540277
>This is where it completely fails though
Yeah this is what I meant by a vibe based disagreement, fact is nobody has hard data on what really makes a killer feel like a "killer" and there's a lot of factors that play into it, like education, which ironically enough alongside with empathy is a very large plot point in SSY. Does drone operator pushing a button really feel like a killer? I don't really care for your answer though, especially because you seem to think this isn't an ongoing discussion in the series and that it fails some abstract litmus test you set

>>283540701
That murder mechanism is precisely the cat one. Is not one person commanding the cat to kill someone, iss leaving enough hints and subconscious permission to the cats that they can eat a certain human.
They are killing any kid who doesn't show enough resilence under duress, that's why Mamoru was going to be killed. He is not a psycopath and has zero chance of becoming one, but his mind was fragile enough to maybe kill someone in the future.

>>283540760
The "abstract" litmus test the show fails for me is that logically a society like that would either instantly fall apart or not be possible to establish in the first place.

>>283540813
Yeah and my point is that if by the show's logic that kind of mechanism works, other people would have developed their own mechanisms and the whole thing would have fallen apart long ago.

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>>283540813
Why not have more or stronger cats? It's a perfect solution. This all could've been solved with extra cats.

>>283540924
Would a society that kills any possible problematic kid have an adult trying to develop about methods to get skirt away from the death feedback mechanism for the sole sake of murdering?
That's the thing. The cats were made in order to get rid of the problematic child, but not because they wanted to kill and any who may develop the feeling of changing the society would have been killed because a mere suspicion is enough.
I bet that they kill more kids than the amount they breed.

>>283540997
>for the sole sake of murdering
I never said their sole sake would be murdering, it could be for anything, status, power, revenge for all their murdered children, whatever. Setting up a society like that would never work in the first place when skirting the murder rule is as easy as sharing guilt, but even if it was established the first bigger problem would tear it down.

>>283540997
How strong was Messiah that their whole stock of cats couldn't do the job?

>>283540924
Nah, the abstract litmus test is that you just say it would instantly fall apart unless it portrays these processes exactly from the angle you think is true, fully based on your roundabout vibes about the topic, despite the series contemplating the framework with more nuance than your posts do. Like, even as an abstract, a large thematic point in the series is that they live in a dystopia that's built to convince people that the things they do are an absolute necessity, which is one of the core processes of distancing yourself from the act of killing, but this somehow completely flew over your head, because you had a hypothetical scenario about some imaginary grade teacher or whatever. I don't really care that you disagree with the series, I don't think you can come up with actual criticism

>>283541190
But all those people you mentioned should have been killed before they turned adults because they kill anyone who has a slight chance of being dangerous.
Also, the story showed that is unsustainable and it was only luck that they have managed to survive until now. The whole point of giving more freedom to Saki's group was an experiment to create successors with a different viewpoint.

>>283540277
>This is where it completely fails though as there's a billion different ways people could convince themselves that their hands are clean
Except death feedback isn't going to wait until you find a justification for why you had to murder someone. If you think murder is inherently a bad thing and you do end up murdering someone you're gonna die long before you can convince yourself that you didn't do anything wrong.
>like imagine you're a teacher grading someone's performance and they're right on the line between passing and failing and you know your decision is the difference between them dying a violent death and getting to enter society, how would most teachers who aren't complete retards not die on the spot if they condemned them?
The kind of people that think they're killing children if the kids fail the tests wouldn't be capable of becoming (or remaining) teachers in the first place.

>>283526156
Yes, they were.
That's one of the conclusions of this series. Cantus users were so retarded that they engineered their own doom because each one were walking glass cannons.
A school shooting in that meme country kills like 20 kids, a cantus user with the same meltdown can kill thousands.
And then if we add rational, but greedy people, the amount of people that can be killed will be even bigger.

>>283526700
Lmao faggot

>>283540277
>>283541372
Also give me an example of a justification that would allow you to kill someone without triggering death feedback.
Remember that everyone would also fall under death feedback so you can't use self-defense or revenge for a past murder as justification.

>>283541218
>unless it portrays these processes exactly from the angle you think is true

I never presented any angle where it would work. There was a single time I mentioned that keeping the kids away from their parents would make more sense than traumatizing them repeatedly, that still doesn't mean that I think the rest of the premise makes total sense. Fictional settings don't have to make perfect sense, they're fictional for a reason, I only mentioned that because it stuck out to me as pointless drama and misery porn which pushes it from kinda nonsense to completely ridiculous. But you and and a few other people seem intent to jerking a fictional setting off to the point that you actually think it's realistic in spite of failing to address all of the points I made on how fragile and illogical it is.

>a large thematic point in the series is that they live in a dystopia that's built to convince people that the things they do are an absolute necessity, which is one of the core processes of distancing yourself from the act of killing, but this somehow completely flew over your head

It didn't fly over my head, the point I've been making is that this contrived ass process with murder cats could have been replicated by anyone else within the show's internal logic. The reason I mentioned the grade teachers is because they're the key part of said one murder system that exists in the show, how else would you have me debate it? People kept bringing up random hypotheticals long before I did. I don't think you can come up with any actual counter arguments.

>>283541670
If using the cats is your main issue, they could choose any methods, they just liked the cat method more.

>>283532528
Queerats were more human than cant*sniggers could ever hope to be.

>>283541372
Except death feedback isn't going to wait until you find a justification for why you had to murder someone

If the death feedback was that severe and could read your mind to a perfect degree the whole children butcher society makes no sense, just gonna quote the other anon for that >>283539697

And then when that is brought up people will go on to talk about the ways you actually CAN get around it, this retarded circular argument is getting tiresome.

>The kind of people that think they're killing children if the kids fail the tests

All their teachers are incapable of basic logic? Like I said if people like these teachers can completely avoid the feedback then the feedback isn't that much of an obstacle, and if the feedback isn't an obstacle the society isn't sustainable, it's just an obvious contradiction.

>>283541888
Wasn't that the final reveal?
Pkers are mutants and the real humans were transformed into queerats by the evil mutants.

>>283541969
Everyone, including the anime, still acts like the Queerats are mutant cattle who deserve to be slaves while the eternal cantoid is human and beautiful and everything is okay because maybe somebody will do something about it eventually, probably.

>>283541801
I understand that the cat process is just for flare, that was about the least relevant part there. The point was that it's the ONLY method anyone came up with when any group of people or even a clever enough individual could come up with one of their own.

>>283541801
They needed more cats

>>283542003
I saw it differently, especially at the end of the trial and Squealer yells that he is a human. This was to show the hypocrisy of the cantus users and that was enhanced by the inhuman punishment they gave to Squealer, a human. Cantus users are the real monsters.
Saki also hates that their society is one built out of fear and they will end once their luck rans out.

>>283542090
And yet by the end Saki stil didn't even see him as human enough for the feedback to activate. Her solution is basically
>well no i'm not gonna change anything but maybe somebody else will

>>283542044
Nowhere is written that it was the only method that they came up with. It's the method they decided on.

>>283529016
Iirc they did said that they revoked children's rights as a way to get rid of potential demons/fiends before they start fucking shit up

>>283542116
She didn't saw Squealer as one of her own species and the story ends with a defeatists note too.
It was a bad ending to show how fucked up they are.

>>283529016
I may be misremembering, but they had culling already. It became stricter after the Raman-Klogius syndrome incident though.

>>283542169
>She didn't saw Squealer as one of her own species
So she didn't see him as human, because in the end, it doesn't matter how sapient or free-willed they are, they're ugly rat people so that means they're not human and enslaving them is fine and okay and it's really their issue if they try to rebel and get genocided for it.

>>283526197
Ive always wondered why couldn't they use hypnosis to overcome the death feedback and deal with the fiends that way, we already know if they dont perceive their target to be hunan then it doesn't trigger

>>283542122
Who is the "they" you are referring to, because I was talking about anyone who would have an interest in getting around the feedback, and the people in the show certainly didn't seem so cohesive and drone-like that none of them would contemplate it. The point was that any group, possibly even individual, could use a similar way to get around it, not just the elders who were in charge of making the cat system.

>>283542229
What Saki thinks and what we think is different.
From the reader perspective, none of them are humans anymore and you choose who are the most humans to you.
In my case, the queerrats ar the true humans.

>>283542292
For they, I refer to those who decided the cat method.
For people who would have an interest in getting around the feedback, they would have been killed before they grew because of the system.

>>283526156
My only grievance with the series was the infodump a few episodes in. Surely there was a better way to do that.

>>283542229
Oh now I finally understand everything, but then were the rats supposed to represent the Koreans or the Chinese?

>>283541670
No my point is the show actively contemplates these questions and provides viewpoints to a topic that's ultimately really subjective as it deals with a strange intersection of culture and psychology, and as a counter you just say you think this is wrong because you think it is. I wasn't kidding by the way when I said I'm not really interested in your takes so I don't know why I bother replying

>>283542340
Refer to this post minus the first line which was supposed to be a quote >>283541964

>>283532528
Does Squealer literally not know what canters do to themselves
>oh no you could get instantly killed because you crossed some unknown eugenic boundary how tragic
>how would you feel if your grandma sent tigers to eat you because you had a bad dream
It's a terrible way to live but it's absolutely a shared burden.

>>283542292
>The point was that any group, possibly even individual, could use a similar way to get around it
Perhaps same could be said of every society, very grounded criticism

>>283542372
As with most of these stories, you could argue the rats to represent just about anyone. A popular interpretation on this site and nowhere else is that the cantus are jews and queerats are goyim.

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>>283526156
This was the last of a time honored tradition of deep anime before the shonen slop took over

>>283542406
Is the fact that the show contemplates these questions somehow mutually exclusive with the show's setting making no sense? People were talking about how the setting makes logical sense, that's where I joined the conversation. I didn't debate about the attempted message, not about the style, not even whether the show is good or not, I mostly liked it, but the setting makes no sense to me and I've repeatedly stated why. This is not a criticism of the work as a whole only a single aspect of it, don't know why I need to spell this out for you.

>>283541964
It would probably be possible for someone to try to set up an empire with cat or even rat soldiers and get around the feedback like that, if they felt like they were doing the right thing and not personally killing anyone. The problem would be getting them to successfully fight adult cantus users.

>>283542639
Akki wasn't even adult

>>283540997
>I bet that they kill more kids than the amount they breed.
There's a reason a Japan where everyone is a walking Industrial Revolution and they don't have any problem with disease or accident has a population of less than a million.

>>283542686
A human could probably raise kids to believe they were queerats and sic them on other humans yeah, they would be unstoppable at that point unless they wanted to sustain cantus in a population without the suppression methods, which in a population that reliably produces cantus much more than in the days of the insane emperors is a recipe for total disaster.

>>283542563
>This is not a criticism of the work as a whole only a single aspect of it, don't know why I need to spell this out for you
You don't, I haven't pretended you randomly insult the artstyle or whatever, this was a very strange optics cope on your part. I've already made pretty clear that my beef was with how you tote your criticism as "logical", while in reality what we're discussing is a hypothetical that's anchored in something that's deeply subjective. Your logical criticism is equivalent of you saying "well I feel differently about these things" and then pretending it's actually an objective script fault. It's a very unserious approach to the content the anime has, especially when the work is borderline philosophical about the matter

>>283541190
They can't contemplate murder as in the act of murder, but letting out a cat isn't the same as killing a person psychologically speaking. Could some kid use Cantus to create a warped creature that kills someone bypassing the death feedback? Yes, but it'd be too hard to hide the personality required to come up with that from the whole society, plus the vast majority of the population doesn't even know how these things work. Good luck fighting against a system you don't know about. It'd be so hard to conceal that you're getting sick by thinking about killing people. And a lot of factors like idk, lust for power and whatnot, are personality things they'd have to keep hidden from when they were children. Their society is not very numerous by the way. Way easier to control that way.

>>283542003
The snow is from the PoV of Saki, the narrative is horribly biased on purpose

>>283542812
>I haven't pretended you randomly insult the artstyle or whatever

No, you just kept talking about the "message", instead of actually addressing anything I was saying and being snide about my criticism not having any value without attempting to refute it at all.

>Your logical criticism is equivalent of you saying "well I feel differently about these things"

This is bullshit, it is much, much easier to criticize a fictional setting than it is to write a believable one, this is just a fact. I respect fiction writers since I consume a lot of it but you are crazy if you think any fictional setting is purely subjective and free of internal logic and therefore immune to criticism using real world examples when 99.99% of the time they use the real world as basis then add on things to it, in this case not even that many things.

Since I've pretty much distilled the argument so far by talking with others who were actually willing to discuss you can just answer it or stop wasting my time, which was that any group of people, possibly even an individual, could use a similar way to the cat system to get around murder feedback, and judging by every society in known history and even the setting's own backstory some would have tried to.

>>283542421
It's kinda implied that is the sum of the scores to determine what can be a potential demon. The work around the death feedback is not that hard, but those who may try to get around it are killed when they are kids.

>>283543199
Yeah others can bypass death feedback that way. Issues:
They'd have to grow up, learn enough about their society and hatch said plan without triggering the suspicions of the surveillance state
Other Cantus users could kill the creatures or agents of death with their own Cantus if they aren't people. The kids were specifically brainwashed into fearing the Cats to make it easier that they'd die to them.
You have to do this without being mentally ill, because otherwise your unstable emotions are going to get you killed.
If you managed to do all this then you probably weren't vulnerable to death feedback due to being a psycho anyways.

>>283526198
Not possible. Cantus wasn't like some power you randomly god. It was the next evolutionary trait. That would be like trying to stop evolution. Even if it worked, it's a bad idea.

>>283526617
Pkers were the minority. Non pkers were way more common and pkers parents doesn't guarantee a pker baby.

>>283526198
The biological weapon they used at the end is pretty much that. That's all they could muster. The current society doesn't contemplate that option because it was set up by Cantus users.

>>283543287
Iirc the kids are in the clear when they turn 15 or so, who even has a fully formed personality or life goals by that point? There's infinite ways someone's personality will evolve past a certain age or encounter trauma, most killers aren't psychopaths or weren't clinical ones to start with. And in this case they even kill people's kids like they're roaches after allowing them to bond with them making everything a thousand times worse.

>>283541964
You don't seem to understand the point of death feedback. It's there to prevent psykers going on murder sprees on a whim as they have done in the past. It's not designed to prevent people from killing under any circumstance. Not only is that's literally impossible, it's also counterproductive because you'd have no way of dealing with fiends or karma demons.

Death feedback is unavoidable if you're directly trying to murder someone regardless of justification. This is because it's ingrained into people that murder = bad so unless you don't inherently and genuinely believe that killing someone is wrong death feedback will affect you.
Death feedback is avoidable given enough degrees of separation between you and your target. This is normal because if it was truly unrestricted it could trigger for literally any reason given enough mental gymnastics.

>>283543301
here
>>283543429

Also I don't even remember them particularly observing or controlling the adults, was this a novel thing or something? The mother of the MC was unstable due to having a bunch of her children murdered but nothing happened to her.

>>283543429
People were brainwashed and wired to forget others after they die. This is a plot point. So losing children is less of a problem than it seems given they truly forget through memory alteration. Keep in mind Saki's parents were higher ups so they were in on a process most people weren't aware of.

>>283543429
Wasn't implied that they use the queerrats as assassins to kill what can't be killed by the cats (and they kill the queerats later)?

>>283543199
>instead of actually addressing anything I was saying
As I said before, I don't really care what your take on for example the drone operator dilemma is, because you don't seem to understand were discussing an inherently subjective framework, which makes the commentary that probably sounded very smart in your head completely miss the point. You can extrapolate this attitude to everything you've said
>you are crazy if you think any fictional setting is purely subjective and free of internal logic
Literally nothing I've ever even said, you just wrote a paragraph worth of babble. I'm saying the specific point we're discussing is subjective because it's grounded on cultural and psychological aspects. We're not talking about something hard with numerous real world examples
>you can just answer it or stop wasting my time
And those other people already gave you the answers, but okay? The entire system is created to weed out the people who would try to find a way around the feedback + it's a small isolated community with no competitors in what effectively is a post-apoc world. Your issue is that you don't like the answer, not that it's an actual plot hole

>>283539697
>I don't believe everyone there has a deathback so strong they get unbearable pain from thinking about hurting others yet at same time have an organised system for
IIRC death feedback mainly triggers if you try to harm another human with your cantus. After all cantus is at the root of all problems since it's such a powerful weapon. Harming other humans indirectly or even by mundane means is not something that needs to be guarded against with death feedback, since doing so won't normally allow for an extreme escalation in violence and destruction like utilizing cantus does. Unless of course they resorted to mundane WMDs... but by the time the death feedback was engineered, high tech society had already collapsed and PKers live in a low tech society where they rely on cantus for most every task. They don't even have guns anymore, so their potential for violence without cantus is severely restricted.

>>283543301
>tfw there are probably high-functioning psychopaths who kill people on the regular and society just quietly brainwashes them out of people's memories

>>283543558
The mother of the MC was a higher up. They're deviants specifically groomed for their job, like Saki and her entire group. Whoever put her there thought that there was no risk. Yeah the system is flawed and will eventually collapse, the anime already shows 2 situations that put society at risk. They had to become more murderous after the Fiend appeared, then we saw the Queerat rebellion. Them failing to judge a higher up candidate properly is a potential issue too. It's not shown as a perfect system.

>>283543587
In fact that's exactly what happens in the climax.

>>283543632
They live in low tech, but their scientific knowledge is still advnced so they can create modern weapons if they want, its just that cantus is more convenient and less polluting.

>>283541801
The cats isn't the main issue, the issue is that the way the death feedback works, raising cats you know are going to be used to slaughtering kids would be enough to kill you, just like ordering some queerats to kill kids would have been enough to kill you, or feeling guilty because you were responsible for parent being ill over losing a kid would kill you. In real life, people who rationalise away their involvement or agency in murder or other crimes nearly always had a moment they felt bad for what they were doing that ended up being buried over time, cantus society wouldn't have the luxury.

And their culling methods would have been completely innefective if the people they were culling had even a minimum of control over their power, like mamuro showed when he vaporised the cat. But to be fair, they could always be killed in their sleep...

I appreciate that it's thought provoking, even it's not logically sound.

>>283543632
>IIRC death feedback mainly triggers if you try to harm another human with your cantus.
This is wrong, they wouldn't have gone through the hassle of breeding the cats if they could just kill the problematic kids themselves.

>>283543599
He sounds like the kind of guy that would reason that rule of law doesn't work because some people will occasionally commit crimes and get away with it.

>>283543747
>raising cats you know are going to be used to slaughtering kids would be enough to kill you
Or then it evidently wouldn't, as the people can compartmentalize. Also we actually see Saki getting queasy when she considers killing the Fiend, so the series showcases what happens to people in this exact situation and that the feedback is a spectrum rather than on/off switch where the severity is clearly dictated by how close you are to actually bloodying your hands
Also every issue you have with the show can just be bypassed by saying they came up with the methods before they bioengineered the people. Or that these methods were developed by Satoru's granny who's obviously on the utilitarian end of things and old enough to have existed pre-dystopia

>>283543747
Death feedback doesn't work conceptually on the idea of someone dying due to your involvement, it works on the act of murder. You can make a bomb whose job is to explode, then hand it to someone whose job is to press a button that launches a bomb, and have a third person circle up the person that has to be killed. As long as neither of them feel like they're killing the person, death feedback won't trigger. Its also not absolute, you saw that non-direct cases of death feedback can make them sick without killing them outright. Like I said before, it works because most people don't know the inner workings of the system, because they are surveilled from when they are kids with worse judgement, and because Cantus works based on your subconscious. Considering killing someone would not only make you sick but actually generate a sort of negative Cantus aura, we saw this in Shun's mental illness.

>>283543752
I'm sure everyone involved very much prefers to send out cats instead of strangling children to death with their own bare hands, even if it might be an option. We know for a fact that the doctor who killed the fiend from 100 years ago directly poisoned him, so doing harm without resorting to cantus must be a possibility in principle. If it does trigger death feedback, then only to a minor non-lethal degree.

>>283543747
>says some retarded shit that can be immediately answered by actually watching the show
>but it's apparently not "logically sound"
Fucking lmao

>>283543599
>I don't really care what your take on for example the drone operator dilemma is

My take on it doesn't matter, I was pointing out that you can't have it both ways, the show says that the drone operator can get away with murder, but why is there only one small group of drone operators? The "drones" in this series are not that deep or hard to replicate.

>subjective because it's grounded on cultural and psychological aspects

I don't think discussing the reasons people would cause harm for are subjective aspects, hell it doesn't even have to be as extreme as murder, the point I'm arguing is that a lot of the people in this society would have sought out their goals and ambitions and would have figured out how to abuse the system to their own benefit.

>And those other people already gave you the answers, but okay?

Some of them did, one even said it was fair >>283542453
, but I don't think anyone came up with a good argument as to why everyone would be so docile and obedient and not form any factions. Someone said they keep strict watch over all the adults too but that's not the impression I got from the show at all.

>>283543747
Death Feedback is not a yes or no.
Throwing an antrax bottle won't trigger the feedback if think hard enough that is not you trying to kill, but it will probably trigger after watching the victim dying.
Saki almost triggered the death feedback by using Kiromarou as bait so the kid dies from her feedback.
The feedback is not absolute, that's why they have to kill not only the possible psychos, but anyone who can potentially think about reasons to go against the flow and the also brainwash most of the population to forget about the sacrifices.

>>283544082
>one even said it was fair
I was making fun of you kek
Have are you so daft

>>283543841
The rule of law has plenty of faults that get exploited all the time, and the premise of this show is that if that happens even once the whole society is fucked because they're all walking nuclear bombs.

You only proved yourself wrong you dumb fuck.

>>283544142
Then you are fucking stupid, because yes, every society does have plenty of people who do that, but this one magically doesn't? Even though it's clearly possible for them to? Small society etc. are just copes, people will backstab each other in backwater villages with 50 residents over a missing sheep.

>>283526156
Were they?
I'd say it's odd that more people without death feedback didn't pop up who were never exposed because killing is simply not socially accepted. Sure, they were thoroughly monitoring kids and killing anyone who didn't fit in, but their criterias were stupid and selection ridiculously ineffective at one thing it was supposed to achieve. There should have been more immune people who could resist maniacs.

>>283544082
You don't want many people with free thinking, only the bare necessary is enough. In their last experiment to get new leaders, they only used 6 kids. The less operators, the better.
They make sure to kill anyone who may develop individualist thinking and brainwash even adults to keep a semblance of peace.
Their society will end if nothing changes, but Saki doesn't know what to do, besides hoping, that's the ending.

>>283526156
>We will just implant an urge into everyone that will make it impossible to kill and hurt others!
Yes, that's as retarded as achieving immortality. Especially if it cannot be reversed or bypassed.

>>283544082
>Someone said they keep strict watch over all the adults too but that's not the impression I got from the show at all.
That's a fact though. It's explicitly mentioned that Saki's group is allowed to have a much greater degree of free will than most people, because the village leaders do need at least a few kids who aren't npcs to take over leadership duties in the future. This is also the reason why Saki's group wasn't culled when protocol normally would've demanded that they should be. They were too valuable and ultimately necessary for the future of the village despite the risk they posed.

>>283543903
The doctor prepared the poison, pointed it to the kid so that he would take it because he was feeling sick, and still died from death feedback because he was the one that prepared the poison the kid took.

>>283543891
Death feedback works even if you had nothing to do with murder, just seeing images of people suffering because of you is sufficient, like the fake minoshiro showed.

It doesn't kill you because you are involved, but being aware/visualising that happening does trigger it. And people able to not visualise it as such are killed preventively.

It's basically a system that cannot be closed, it could only make sense if there was a special caste that wouldn't be affected by death feedback lording over those that are controlled by it.

>>283544109
Brainwashing cannot explain why the people maintaining the system are able to do while being aware, and wilfully killing people, even indirectly.

>>283544248
It's been a while since I watched the show but I do not remember everyone outside the MCs group acting like lobotomized sheep or the show really showing that kind of control over the population in any way except for the children. And like I said almost no one has a fully formed personality or life goals by the point they graduate, there's infinite ways someone's personality will evolve past that age, or encounter trauma, or whatever.

>>283544355
Wrong, the doctor administered the poison himself and he didn't die from death feedback either. He was killed by the fiend after the fiend realized what the doctor had done to him.

>>283544355
I don't think you read one of my answers considering you didn't reply to mine, but I will answer again but a bit more detailed.
It's not impossible to get around the feedback, but you need to have certain convictions and a strong mind.
Saki could kill the kid at the end without activating the feedback, although it almost killed her.
This shows that the feedback is not absolute and is not even hard to think of a workaround.
You also have to remember that most of the population is raised to be simpleminded and are constantly brainwashed to forget the culled population. Only the ruling cast like Saki's parent have more leeway in their thinking patterns and those are the ones who send the bakeneko.
>>283544440
Nobody outside Saki's group besides the spec ops, the librarians and the board even try to think outside the box. They don't even question about exploring outside and completely forget when some kids disappear.
Tomie explained to Saki that her group was an exception because they were an experimental group which were given less hypnosis than the others and allowed them more freedom in their thinking patterns.

>>283544339
It was mentioned they had more freedom than the other kids, not other full citizens in general, I actually remember them saying they are only allowed to "force abort" people's kids up to the age of 15 I believe it was? Which implies they don't use cats to kill any adults.

>>283544534
At the end, they imply that they use the bakenezumi against adults.

>>283544443
Just looked it up, you are correct. However the story does contradict everything otherwise shown about death feedback, how does administering a seringe full of deadly poison not count as inflicting harm on others?

>>283544082
>but why is there only one small group of drone operators?
Because there are no external communities, and their own community is built to prevent rogue drone operators. There's no both waying here, such a stupid take. You've been told this by multiple people already but you just keep on crying. And the drone dilemma is about ethics anyway
>I don't think discussing the reasons people would cause harm for are subjective aspects
The drone dilemma is subjective. You're now switching the topic to an entirely different thing. I do think the reasons why someone would want to harm others are also equally subjective, but I'm going to roll with you here for the sake of the convo because it doesn't matter when it comes to the answer. And the answer is that these people would be cat food
>Some of them did
The guy you're quoting is memeing on you because you sound like a pseud. And again, the show is more nuanced than your posts and portrays the societal structures and conditions that you have in this dystopian society, and also does dip its toes into how faction politics work especially when it comes to Tomiko's projects, but none of this matters to you because you just have decided you disagree with this thing even though you clearly don't have an argument that could stand on its own. You've been dunked on so thoroughly that I don't think you even yourself believe your own points at this point, you're just doing the usual internet shit flinger psyop where you repeat the same thing over and over again because disengaging would be a worse look

>>283544567
The hypnosis at that time wasn't as strong as now. Their near brainwash hypnosis system started after that incident.
The doctor could still fool himself that the injection is not a way to kill the kid, but once the kid died, he couldn't fool himself anymore and died.

>>283544225
Following your logic those societies should have collapsed then
World history is pretty unrealistic now that I think about it

>>283543888
Funny how the autismo ignored this

What was the reason everybody has a gay phase again?

>>283543888
Even saki destroyed the anthrax poison

>>283544849
Bonobos.

>>283544849
Sex relieves stress so they put some Bonobo behavioral patterns. Not everyone have the gay phase like what happened to Mamoru and for some is not a gay phase, but they are just gay or bisexual like what to happened to Satoru.

>>283544603
Because there are no external communities, and their own community is built to prevent rogue drone operators

No, if we're going by that analogy their community was built to prevent walking nuclear bombs, rogue drone operators are an analogy for indirect violence of any kind, which apparently gets handwaved by "only sheeple are allowed to live, also hypnosis lol".

>You're now switching the topic to an entirely different thing
Drone dilemma was never a topic of discussion, you just brought it up to be a pseud, I only used drones as an easy analogy for the stupid cat system.

>And the answer is that these people would be cat food
Right they'll magically detect whenever any citizen has an even slightly selfish thought or action which the feedback doesn't cover.

>The guy you're quoting is memeing on you because you sound like a pseud.
Shame on me for assuming anyone arguing on the internet would ever concede a point, even when they had nothing to add to the discussion.

>the show is more nuanced than your posts and portrays the societal structures and conditions that you have in this dystopian society
It really doesn't, which is a shame because it would have been better if it focused more on that.

>You've been dunked on so thoroughly that I don't think you even yourself believe your own points at this point, you're just doing the usual internet shit flinger psyop where you repeat the same thing over and over again because disengaging would be a worse look

You're zealously arguing about the fidelity of a fictional setting from a niche anime, I don't think anything I say could make me look worse than that.

>>283544881
>Even saki destroyed the anthrax poison
She always was a pussy, always

>>283544881
Saki destroyed the anthrax poison because she didn't want Satoru dying since she is the last person in her tiny world. The anthrax would have killed Satoru too.

>>283544159
My point was to not let perfect be the enemy of good. Death feedback has many flaws but it works fine once you actually understand what it does (prevent PK massacres) and doesn't do (prevent murders altogether).
>"if that happens even once the whole society is fucked because they're all walking nuclear bombs."
Something worse than that happened and yet they're still alive

>>283544961
I meant he, Satoru is a he, no matter how gay he is still apparently a man.

>>283544647
Yeah because everyone carries a nuke in their pocket right? Also every society does collapse at some point even without the extremes this setting has, you really are fucking stupid.

>>283536066
Absolutely not. The PK scientists went to the most extreme lengths in order to somehow build a peaceful society of cantus users and all they got for their trouble was a horrific dystopia where 99% of the population are brainwashed stooges who don't even really get to enjoy their reality warping powers anymore.

>>283544986
Oh so you're saying there aren't groups and weapons capable of destroying communities if they don't have literally Ze Nuke, got it
>Also every society does collapse at some point
By your logic it's unbelievable that we live in a society right now because logically speaking it should have collapsed

>>283544980
That would imply nuance, but in this setting the higher ups supposedly control everything and everyone. It could have been better like that but it's not how it was presented, even the way it's supposed to prevent massacres is highly questionable with what happens in the show and some scenarios people talked about earlier in the thread.

>>283544937
NTA, but they are constantly checking their mental health and is true that they only let npcs live except for the few who will be given some managerial position.
They are given suggestion as soon as they can recognize the world around them to make them deeply submissive, to trigger extreme stress when thinking of harming others (not the death feedback from the genetic manipulation), not question orders, heavily restrict their curiosity and kill any kid that resists the suggestion or is not effective enough. Yes, they don't kill only psychos, they kill anyone who are slightly dangerous which includes those who are harder to brainwash, those whose cantus may not be hard enough to trigger the death feedback, those who have curious mind, etc.
Saki's group is the exception to the rule.

>>283544523
>>283544607
The problem with the hypnosis theory is that would mean that some of the older members might be able to bypass the death feedback just enough to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Yet when squealers army attacked, none of them were able to do it, even when they had the opportunity to do so like kaburagi (and tomoko, presumably).

The fundamental problem is that you either have a death feedback strong enough to block violence between cantus users, which then prevents said cantus users from culling their own, or you have a death feedback weak enough to allow violence in extreme circumstances (with severe consequences), which would prevent a rebellion like squealer from even having a chance but then more people would be killed by cantus users anyway, undoing the whole premise of the story.

And stand by the opinion that the system in shin sekai yori would only work if there was a higher caste with free use of cantus using death feedback cantus users like cattle that could never go against them.

>>283544937
>No, if we're going by that analogy their community was built to prevent walking nuclear bombs, rogue drone operators are an analogy for indirect violence of any kind
It doesn't matter whether you call it a nuke or drone, and trying to expand this analogy any further just feels so incredibly dumb, while again, the drone dilemma is about whether the operator feels morally culpable or not. I don't really care what devices you want to insert into the story, and you've been given your answers to this point anyway already
>Drone dilemma was never a topic of discussion
Okay so you're just dumb. We've been discussing since the first post I made in the chain how the series discusses the distance from the act of killing, which is quite literally the drone dilemma, and the scope of our convo was for a very long time absolutely nothing else. Trying to say that's a pseud move just means you never had an idea what we were talking about. Explains why you seem so disjointed honestly
>Right they'll magically detect whenever any citizen has an even slightly selfish thought or action which the feedback doesn't cover
See, this is what I was referring to earlier. Multiple people have explained you these things and the series basically spends most of it's screen time on expanding the various societal methods that make a structure like this possible. But it's not a honest discussion for you, because you just don't like the answers, even though you never had a counter argument. You've had your answers this whole time but you choose to cry about it
> I don't think anything I say could make me look worse than that
Dunno, getting so heated that you fail to greentext quote me properly there at the beginning comes pretty close imo, it's not a good look and I've seen a lot of shit formatting in my times, bub

>>283545195
>Oh so you're saying there aren't groups and weapons capable of destroying communities
I'm not saying that at all, what are you even babbling about? I'm saying everyone in this show is a walking nuke with their powers, as opposed to the real world where the best an average person can do alone is shoot up their workplace.

>By your logic it's unbelievable that we live in a society right now because logically speaking it should have collapsed
Societies collapse, others rise to replace them, read a history book.

>>283545319
The hypnosis thing is explained explicitly by Tomoko.
Saki's group is the exception to the rule. Most of them can't directly attack the kid with their cantus and they didn't have any weapons besides the bakeneko which they used to try to kill the kid. Even Saki, who is the most special in the colony almost died using the death feedback trick to kill the kid. Those who are in the managerial positions wielded the cats, but of course it was innefective since a calm Cantus user who is not brainwashed to panic and freeze against the cats and is also supported by an army of gunners can easily destroy the cat army.
The death feedback only triggers when you kill someone. The hypnosis is used to enhance those effects so you can't even think about harming.
Also, the system is doomed to fail precisely because is inherently flawed.
PS: Her name, as you corrected, is Tomoko. I don't know why I thought she was Tomie.

>>283545416
>I'm not saying that at all, what are you even babbling about?
So then people do have methods of collapsing societies in the real world without nukes, glad you agree to that
>Societies collapse, others rise to replace them, read a history book
Then why are you crying that their society hasn't collapsed yet lmao
Crazy how shit we have right now is just history and how the world is, but the anime society is illogical for the same reasons, curious, very curious

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>>283544930
https://english.elpais.com/science-tech/2025-10-22/the-most-violent-attack-ever-documented-five-female-bonobos-kill-a-male-challenging-beliefs-about-the-species-peaceful-nature.html
Bonobos must be such a useful plot point when you're a writer that knows one thing about them

>>283544937
Now that you were forced into a corner and understood how you can't really logically joust against the world building, you switched to this "kek xdddd I guess it's magic" mode, which is really funny to me because magic is an integral part of the setting

>>283545378
>It doesn't matter whether you call it a nuke or drone
It does because nuke was an analogy for one's special powers, drone was an analogy for indirect methods like the cat shit, or any similar method that could work just the same, you just seemed to not understand the context and keep yapping about the drone dillema instead.

>Okay so you're just dumb. We've been discussing since the first post I made in the chain how the series discusses the distance from the act of killing
It was discussed only to the extent of what the feedback system would consider a drone operator therefore not trigger, we didn't discuss the morality of the dilemma or anything, so no, you might be the dumb one. Most of the posts were about how exactly is this feedback system tolerating someone being indirectly responsible for hundreds or thousands of deaths but not getting gamed by anyone else for any other purpose.

>Multiple people have explained you these things
Hypnosis and conditioning alone sound more like handwaves to me.

>Dunno, getting so heated that you fail to greentext
I've done it multiple times this thread, I also inconsistently space, I don't give a fuck about formatting or proofreading my posts on a mongolian basket weaving forum, everything I type is stream of thought.

>>283545700
The hypnosis is a handwave like most worldbuilding by your standards.
They show the hypnosis in various degrees, from sealing powers, to induce murder panic to completely erase memories.
The story also shows that Saki's group hypnosis was a lot weaker than the rest of the population on purpose and is shown in small ways like the group deciding to explore further, trying to capture the false minoshiro and asking questions to it (although that last one was only Shun and Saki who were the most successful experiment) and Saki figuring out the way to remove the hypnosis that seals their cantus.
The death feedback is so dangerous for them that the managerial group forbid genome sequencing of the bakenezumi just in case the death feedback may affect them when they kill them from the slight suspcions born with the fact that they have 46 chromosomes.
If you decide to ignore parts of the story because it's too much bullshit, then we can't really have a discussion about this.

>>283545488
>So then people do have methods of collapsing societies in the real world without nukes, glad you agree to that
This still fails to be a gotcha as everyone in the show does happen to have a nuke, so inferior weapons are irrelevant to them, unless they're indirect like rats, but that's not what we were talking about at all. The point was the much higher likelihood of their society collapsing if an individual goes apeshit through a hole in the system which you tried to apply to the real world where an individual barely has any power, and now you're saying random shit to muddy that.

>Then why are you crying that their society hasn't collapsed yet lmao
I was pointing out that it would have collapsed before reaching the point it has in the show, I can't remember how long it was supposed to have been going for but I questioned even managing to establish it, let alone run it for an extended period of time. No need to lose your shit about it.

>>283545700
>you just seemed to not understand the context and keep yapping about the drone dillema instead
You understand the context was the drone dilemma and that's why we're talking about drone operators, right? Please tell me you understand this much
> we didn't discuss the morality of the dilemma or anything, so no, you might be the dumb
The point of the dilemma is if the operator feels morally culpable or not, which ties to the general ethics discourse on what counts as killing especially from societal and psychological perspective, which ties to the anime. How were we not discussing this again when literally everything I wrote tied to this, care to tell me?
>Hypnosis and conditioning alone sound more like handwaves to me
In a setting where it's established people can do whatever they want with magic? Okay buddy. There's consistent ruleset for all these things too by the way, but apparently that's not good world building because you're the worldbuilding master here who gets to call which is logical and not while simultaneously publicly shitting your pants
> I don't give a fuck about formatting or proofreading my posts on a mongolian basket weaving forum, everything I type is stream of thought
Imagine writing something like this and still thinking people will take you seriously after

>>283545809
It feels like a handwave and too much of a convenience to me because of just how much of the setting hinges on it, when hypnosis itself is kind of a dubious field at best. It makes everyone besides the main group and the small group running the place basically mindless sheep when it probably could have been handled in a more interesting way than completely lobotomizing the population to make the setting feasible. I think there were ways of going for the same story beats and message without needing to resort to that solution but I don't wanna get into that unless people actually want to discuss something like that.

>>283545849
Real world
>people have the weapons to collapse societies
>our society hasn't collapsed yet
>this is good, very realistic, real world shit
Anime
>people have the weapons to collapse societies
>our society hasn't collapsed yet
>NOOO YOU CAN'T HAVE A STORY LIKE THIS IT'S UNREALISTIC BECAUSE THE SOCIETY SHOULD COLLAPSE NOOO NO NO NO BECAUSE I SAID SO

Very curious, very hypocritical

>>283546016
>How were we not discussing this again when literally everything I wrote tied to this, care to tell me?
Because we were discussing it in the scope of a fictional brain hack that does not act like a sentient being and what it would consider problematic behavior, discussing the dilemma itself would imply we were talking about it from a human point of view, not only as far as it relates to a plot device. Surely you understand the context of what it was used in right?

>In a setting where it's established people can do whatever they want with magic?
Gonna just point to here>>283546036

>Imagine writing something like this and still thinking people will take you seriously after
I couldn't give a shit what you or anyone thinks about my post formatting. You were just using it as some proof of me being mad, no one cares lol.

>>283546057
>Real world
>people have the weapons to collapse societies
Very few people in the world have this power, less than a fraction of a percentage.

>Anime
>people have the weapons to collapse societies
Literally every individual in this show does, this is the most retarded post I've replied to yet, I hope you're trolling.

>>283546036
Yeah, you not liking the hypnosis is your issue, not a problem with the world building.
I also think is dumb, but it fits in that world and doesn't create unnecessary plotholes.

>>283546150
>Because we were discussing it in the scope of a fictional brain hack that does not act like a sentient being and what it would consider problematic behavior, discussing the dilemma itself would imply we were talking about it from a human point of view
So you didn't think we were discussing the human point of view when we were talking about the human psychology of the human characters in the anime? What kind of a giga retard cope is this? Honest question
>Gonna just point to here
Shit point, the guy you replied to also pointed out the hypnosis has established rules so it's not really a handwave
>You were just using it as some proof of me being mad, no one cares lol
Evidently you do because you keep being mad about it

>>283537080
https://cadetnine.wordpress.com/

>>283546209
Real world
>only a fraction of people have this power
>very good, very realistic
Anime
>only the psychos which amount to fraction have this power
>NOOOOOOOOOOOOO THAT'S A LOT OF PEOPLE NOOO NOOOOO

So the point stands
Hypocrite

>>283546209
>>283546313
I don't know why you two are discussing this when Saki and Tomoko both think that their society is unsustainable and they want to change it. The problem is that they don't know how.
Tomoko's bet was Saki's group which is a failed plan since at the end, Saki doesn't know how to fix it and is just hoping that it won't collapse soon.

>>283546383
I'm just pointing out the guy has double standards

>>283540813
>that's why Mamoru was going to be killed
Ironically, Mamoru sealed his own fate when he killed the cat stalking him. He said he was too scared to look at it when he killed it, which is a way to avoid death feedback. Every Cantus user is trained to focus their vision on what they want to affect even though it's not necessary (karma demons show that). Same as the clear mental visualization: everyone must recognize what they are doing and whom they are affecting.

>>283540701
After the monk saw a hologram of a screaming woman when he destroyed the walking library, he was suffering badly from feedback and getting worse. He might've died from it if he hadn't taken a bomb dog to the face.

Remember the brainwashing included a priest who clearly stabbed himself and blamed the child. The kids were trained to accept all blame. Better to lose too many people to accidental death feedback than allow someone to get around it.

>>283546273
>So you didn't think we were discussing the human point of view when we were talking about the human psychology of the human characters in the anime?

No you idiot, all I've been discussing in this thread has been the SETTING, and the only human psychology I brought up had nothing to do with the drone dilemma, the only psychology I ever brought up was that of the human race and how a system like the feedback would be a thing people would easily find a way around and exploit, and the answer I got was that everyone was hypnotized enough not to, which didn't really come across to me that way when I watched it regarding the adults, but it has been a while. If you yapped about some unrelated shit it was not in relation to anything I was saying, or you should quote me if you think I did. And just because something has a few rules doesn't make it any less of a handwave and lame convenience, funny that the same anon you mention also doesn't like it.

>Evidently you do because you keep being mad about it
Idk you seem pretty mad I criticized your favorite anime.

>>283546231
Is it not a world building problem though when the method is just magic for the sake of not creating plot holes? Like I said I feel like it could have been done in a more interesting way, it basically makes everyone outside of a small circle an NPC.

>>283546313
No, everyone has the power, psychos are just most likely, but not the only ones who would use it. Why would they be butchering most of their kids otherwise? And the fraction of people in the world with the power to end it is still several orders of magnitude less than the amount of pshychopaths so even that is a cope.

Just stop posting, you're only digging deeper.

>>283546519
Most people being almost like npc was also a problem ñ of their society and it affected Saki a lot when she was talking with thr Shun replacement.
This is also why she put the entire society at risk by destroying thr anthrax. For her, saving the society wasn't worth it if Satoru died.
She also respected Squealer for that reason too.
As I said, the hypnosis fits the world, even if its dumb. Its also hinted that the hypnosis is not absolute, they just kill anyone who has some resistance to it so you can imagine how many kids are killed.
The hypnosisnwasn't an asspull despite me not liking it. It was shown as soon as we saw how Saki's sister was erased and then shown further more with the cantus sealing ritual.
Those scenes also show that Saki's family is special because they didn't forget their killed daughter.
Like I said, the cantus powered hypnosis makes sense, I just think is dumb and another method would have been preferable for me, but I can't think any other way to justify humanity still existing.
Remember that they are very powerful, but still as fragile as any other human. You just need 1 greedy selfish fucker to destroy nations with pk powers. Killing that fucker is easy, but he can kill an entire city by himself which will lead to mass panic and it will led to a war like the X-man movies, but most mutants being stronger than Magneto.

>>283546609
Only one cantus user is enough to kill their entire community and it doesn't have to be a psycho.
Just one cantus user who thinks their society is fucked can bring destruction by figuring out ways to get around the death feedback. One power hungry Cantus user can restore the pk slaver empire.
The problem is that Cantus can kill a lot of people as easily as breathing, even if you are at Saki's level.

>>283546519
>No you idiot, all I've been discussing in this thread has been the SETTING, and the only human psychology I brought up had nothing to do with the drone dilemma
Okay so you can't just admit that talking about what humans consider psychologically "killing" has to do with the drone dilemma, which we discussed for many posts previously, even though literally everyone reading this can just scroll up the reply chain and check the receipts, got it
>or you should quote me if you think I did
Sure, here >>283539901 you talk about the cat killings contrasted to any other killings, and here >>283540099 in the reply I jump in the convo to explain you're basically stupid because the series actively discusses the degree of separation with these methods, which we then proceed to talk about for basically 5 hours. But seriously though, why start acting coy at this point? What point does it serve to cry about how you don't think this thing is on point -- which by the way, it totally is, as it's a very central world building detail -- when you've been engaging the points for hours? Do you think it makes you look less stupid if you pretend this didn't happen? Is that the cope?
>Idk you seem pretty mad
So a "no u"? Got it

>>283546609
>No, everyone has the power
>in an anime where the main conflict is that only psychos can use it harmfully
LMMMMAAOOOOO hypocrite

>>283546782
>you talk about the cat killings contrasted to any other killings
I talk about them in the context of the non sentient feedback being okay with one of those but not the other, so apparently yes, you are just stupid and have no reading comprehension, got it. Now I'm acting coy? Nah do go on, give me more quotes so I can laugh at how fucking dumb you are at not comprehending anything you've been reading and have basically been arguing with yourself, this is hilarious.

>So a "no u"? Got it
Because opening with a "u mad" is so highbrow and doesn't imply you're either mad or trolling, kek, little bitch.

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Why don't you guys just read the novel instead of arguing about details that are thoroughly explained in it?

>>283546809
t. hasn't watched the anime

Here I don't even have to quote myself, someone else already talked about it >>283546779

Yep totally the same thing as a few people in the world having nuclear launch codes and all the deterrents in place for them to ever use them. Damn you're stupid.

Was it ever explained or implied what this power actually was? From what I can tell it's effectively magic that doesn't really adhere to any rules, yet the most they ever did was make forcefields or make people explode into flames. Seems weirdly limited from a writing perspective.

>>283546892
>I talk about them in the context of the non sentient feedback being okay with one of those but not the other
Yes, which has to do with the psychological process of what one considers "killing", which is the drone dilemma, which we talk about in the following posts. And it's a core world building detail. I'm sure you understand this, because we talked about this for 5 hours. No? You don't understand this?

Can you answer the question though? What does it serve you to cry that this isn't on point or pretend you were talking about something else the whole time? Because I'm thinking me clarifying this and backlinking posts will only serve to up the odds that someone new in this thread will read through the convo and see the part where you start deflecting away from the topic here >>283543199 while crying how I'm not willing to discuss what you want and I should stop wasting your time. Because if I were you I would logically want to bury this whole debate thing real fast and not do this whole post-argument coping publicly, because holy shit it looks bad for you.
>mad or trolling, kek, little bitch
Wow heated much, you're upping the bad words, bubbie

>>283546990
>Here I don't even have to quote myself
That's you tho kek

>>283546990
t. didn't understand the anime
Your hypocrite ass also admitted you don't need nukes to wreck society so worthless post

>>283546912
I don't read anymore, I only watch horse racing

>>283542090
>This was to show the hypocrisy of the cantus users and that was enhanced by the inhuman punishment they gave to Squealer, a human
You're not suppose to sympathize with Squealer retard.

>>283547067
>which has to do
Ah so it has to do with it but isn't actually about it? Curious.

>Can you answer the question though? What does it serve you to cry that this isn't on point or pretend you were talking about something else the whole time?

I started deflecting? I started trying to get you to respond to the core of my actual argument instead of your retarded semantic babble which had nothing to do with it, much like exactly what you're doing right now.

>Wow heated much, you're upping the bad words, bubbie
I did just now get a bit heated, because dumb fucks going on endless tangents while not addressing my arguments tick me off, it's just consciously arguing in bad faith. Funnily enough same as in the post you quoted there where I had to reign in your autism to get you to actually answer the argument I was making, as you can tell in the last paragraph of that post. But now you're just devolving into boring worthless yapping again.

>>283547228
You are actually

>>283526700
unc is a glazer

>>283542305
>In my case, the queerrats ar the true humans.
Then you are a true retard

>>283547237
Nope especially in the novels

>>283547228
Empathize, not sympathize.

>>283547126
t. is desperate to keep saying words

Also you don't need nukes to wreck A society, which this world has many of, so bigger ones can squash the smaller. The anime only presents one with no neighbors. And again you dumb retard, being able to do so with less is working against your own argument as everyone in this anime is already hypothetically nuke armed.

>>283547237
The story literally goes out of their way to make him as irredeemable as possible but Burgers are so brainrotted by "MUH FREEDOMS" that they don;t see Squeeler supplementing his own race to the same methods as the Cantus users of yesteryear as bad because?

>>283547232
>Ah so it has to do with it but isn't actually about it?
The point of using the cats is to distance people from killing. Which is about it and has to do with it, yes. Holy shit you must be getting desperate if this attempt at semantic bogging was the best you could do. No wonder you try to blame me for it when it was your top play, despite nothing I said having to do with semantics at any point
>I started deflecting?
Yeah that's when you start trying to jump our convo into entirely different topic, which you were already having with 3 people by the way, and all gave you answers on. It didn't work out the way you wanted to, but it was very transparent move
>I did just now get a bit heated
That's cool little buddy, too bad you've been fuming the entire time though

>>283547373
>Also you don't need nukes to wreck A society, which this world has many of, so bigger ones can squash the smaller
Oh no no no are you saying that societies can end
But ours hasn't yet
That's illogical breh, hypocritical even

Isn't Squealer a direct reference to the character of the same name in Animal Farm? There's tons of similarities between them.

>>283547375
Was submitting to slavery the rational take then?

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>>283547232
>Ah so it has to do with it but isn't actually about it? Curious.
This has to be the most embarrassing reply I've read today kek

>>283547379
>despite nothing I said having to do with semantics at any point

Bringing up this whole insanely retarded semantic tangent about whether we were "discussing the drone operator problem" has been entirely your doing.

The last time we talked about the actual core of our argument was when I said
>And just because something has a few rules doesn't make it any less of a handwave and lame convenience, funny that the same anon you mention also doesn't like it.

After which you continue banging on this retarded tangent, so you're either a massive hypocrite or just really dumb.

>That's cool little buddy, too bad you've been fuming the entire time though
We both know who's been fuming the entire time, you had to make like five butthurt passive-aggressive posts before even semi-properly replying.

Why is no one mentioning the fact that Squealer did unbelievably awful things to like half his own species as well?

>>283547418
Are you getting senile now too? >>283545416

You already tried that one retard-kun.

>>283547481
Was killing your own kind the rational take then?

>>283547537
Because Squealerfags unironically missed the point. If you watched til the end thinking "Squealer was right" you ignored a huge chunk of the story and the reason why Kiroumaru and half the clan didn't side with his genocide.

>>283547554
Are you? >>283545488
Hypocrite KEK

>>283547595
Gotta crack a few eggs

>>283547537
>>283547647
they were uncle toms THOUGH traitors are worse than enemies

>>283547700
Keep following the chain down, you'll find that you're the one out of arguments. I'll accept your concession, you can save face now.

>>283547527
>insanely retarded semantic tangent about whether we were "discussing the drone operator problem"
This has absolutely nothing to do with semantics. Neither has the dilemma by the way
>the actual core of our argument
I don't care what you consider your core argument to be. It wasn't what we were talking about initially. Besides even your "core argument" -- that basically just amounted to crying a lot how you didn't like a thing -- was debunked by me and other anons multiple times. And it literally does not matter because our initial convo was about something else. But you can't admit to this because you lost the convo and deflected, I get it little bro
>We both know who's been fuming
Damn man, now you even copy your insults directly from me, I don't know if you're literally at a melting point or if I'm getting my cock sucked

You still didn't answer my question by the way, what do you think it will benefit you at this point to cry that you wanted to talk about something else, when you engaged me for 5 hours regardless?

>>283547764
Do the same and explain why Ze Real World logical and Ze Anime World illogical
Oh you can't right, hypocrite

>>283526156
isn't there a 4chan banner with this thing

>>283547504
Are you confused about something or are you the other butthurt anon who keeps talking in circles? Yes, talking about something that's related to a concept does not equal discussing said concept as the focal point, the only retarded thing is I still entertain semantic arguments because they're so boring, but people love to resort to those when they exhaust everything else, really should learn to cut them off early.

>>283547537
Because it's understood that despite his ace in the hole, Squealer was in an extremely precarious position the entire time and there was absolutely no way for him to stage his uprising without getting his hands dirty. Dethroning the queens and unifying the majority of queerats by way of conquest were steps he had to take, or he might as well not have bothered to take on the fight against the "gods" at all.

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>>283546057
Fucking lmao

>>283547851
Wow...what a terrible rebuttal

>>283526156
>People that don't have the urge pop up constantly
the last one was 200 years ago, speedreader. maria's kid wasn't a fiend and he was only created because group 7 in general was an experiment with reduced brainwashing (that got a ton of people killed including the person who came up with it)

>283547849
God you're so stupid, don't reply to me please

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>>283547851
>Squealer was in an extremely precarious position the entire time and there was absolutely no way for him to stage his uprising without getting his hands dirty. Dethroning the queens and unifying the majority of queerats by way of conquest were steps he had to take
Yeah that sure didn't bite him in the ass huh?

>>283547895
>dude just live as a slave in conditions where your hive might get fire wiped at a whim
Rats were gonna get the canti anyway at some point, at least go out doing shit

>>283547762
Kiroumaru hated Squealer more than living under the Cantus rulers it was less about being an "uncle tom" and more than he saw Squealer for the faggot he was when he wipped out clans who didn't side with his regime

>>283547918
He had to try. Hindsight is 20/20. That some queerat traitor might cause the whole plan to fail would always have been a possibility. The plan could've failed in a variety of other ways too. Maria's kid could've just died to some stupid accident, or could've turned out to be an actual fiend, or whatever. But even with all these risks attached, it was the best shot by far.

>>283529394
>Since the Death Feedback is supposed to activate when they think they're killing a human, which makes it not activate when killing queerats
they don't think they're killing humans and against human form queerats it occurs
>or activate by mistake when tricked by imagery and so on
it does
>>283530784
>Things went to shit only because there was a cascading shitstorm that required every piece to fall just right
in the LN it is made explicit that every event was caused by group 7 having reduced brainwashing based on the orders of that bitch from the ethics committee so she could find a successor and she frequently intervened in order to keep the cast from being liquidated. idr if that was in the show but it probably was
>>283536743
also all of their relatives are killed if a fiend is confirmed
>>283547537
>>283547647
>>283547956
kiroumaru makes it explicit that he agreed with squealer and had attempted to do the same thing when he tried to originally find the psychobuster. he was motivated entirely by a personal grudge against squealer

>literal retard arguing for hours about a thing that's explained in the anime
How does /a/ do it?

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>>283547936
>Man living under this grueling regime where we have to live every wake and hour om the eye with people who hold tremendous power to kill us in an instance is horrible huh? Btw Squealer just got himself a new power that he's using to forcefully make the other clans unite under him to take down the Canti so let's do that instead

>>283548017
Yeah, and they came so close to winning too
What a bunch of good rats

>>283547767
>This has absolutely nothing to do with semantics.
To exactly what capacity we have discussed the drone dilemma is nothing but pure semantics, if you can't recognize that you might be even dumber than I thought. You went on about it for like 3+ posts of babbling about whether we in fact talked about it or not. At this point you're getting too assblasted for me to tell if you're trolling or just that retarded though.

>I don't care what you consider your core argument to be.
Imagine writing something like this and still thinking people will take you seriously after.

>And it literally does not matter because our initial convo was about something else
Cool imagination bro, you literally quoted the start of our discussion a few posts ago.

>But you can't admit to this because you lost the convo and deflected, I get it little bro
>trying to sound like a zoomer

Yeah I'm sure some autist defending his ancient favorite anime for the last 5 hours is hip and down with the youths, hahahah, embarrassing.

>Damn man, now you even copy your insults directly from me, I don't know if you're literally at a melting point or if I'm getting my cock sucked

We both know you never got your dick sucked, also I was and still am mocking you.

>You still didn't answer my question by the way, what do you think it will benefit you at this point to cry that you wanted to talk about something else, when you engaged me for 5 hours regardless?
We did talk about what I wanted to talk about, IE the relation between the feedback and the society in the anime for the most part, you're just too fucking stupid to have the slightest bit of reading comprehension, I guess.

>>283548007
>kiroumaru makes it explicit that he agreed with squealer and had attempted to do the same thing when he tried to originally find the psychobuster
Damn I forgot all about this. Based rat king

>>283548007
That's literally what I said retard. Kiromaru would have sided with the rebellion if Squealer didn't start misusing the power like a retard. It also showed that Squealer would have just made another society previous to the Cantus users of yesteryear when he started destroying clans who didn't side with him

>>283548007
>kiroumaru makes it explicit that he agreed with squealer
No he didn't. Kiromaru always hated him because he knew he couldn't trust him but he shared the same resentment of living under the Canti. In the end Kiromaru took the pragmatic approach and made sure that his clan would be spared when he gave up his life to stop the psychobuster

I always wondered why they didn't just engineer the psychic shit out of society

>>283548103
You can agree with someone and still not like them as a person, anon.

>>283548070
>Kiromaru would have sided with the rebellion if Squealer didn't start misusing the power like a retard.
you mean if squealer hadn't carried out an actual rebellion? all kiroumaru cares about is his heckin' queen and begging humans to allow him to exist
>>283548103
>Kiromaru always hated him because he knew he couldn't trust him
he hated him because he loved his queenerino more than actually overthrowing humans
>In the end Kiromaru took the pragmatic approach
he stopped a golden opportunity to overthrow humans

>>283547798
Our reply chain starts with me saying that random people would exploit the feedback system and get around it which would end that type of society due to their superpowers, while in our world personal power is much more limited. Hell it's probably even impossible for any individual unless their generals/deep state/billionaires etc. agree. Maybe if you could read you could have saved yourself a lot of time.

>>283548135
They didn't want to give it up. And maybe they were paranoid that it might reemerge somewhere else, and then they would suddenly find themselves in the role of the impotent baseline humans who get dunked on by the new breed of psychic tyrants.

>>283548154
Kiromaru and Squealer had different insights is what I'm saying, them not liking being ruled under the Canti doesn't mean they would have gone about the same way. What turned Kiromaru against Squeeler is when he started killing his own kind.

>>283548175
>you mean if squealer hadn't carried out an actual rebellion?
No retard when he started killing his own kind at that point in became less about the rebellion of a race and just ruling through power the same as the Canti he despised.

>>283548202
>What turned Kiromaru against Squeeler is when he started killing his own kind.
Kiromaru was a warrior who had led his troops against his own kind too, in service of the "gods" at that. He was just asshurt that Squealer got the better of him.

>>283548065
>To exactly what capacity we have discussed the drone dilemma is nothing but pure semantics
None of that had to do with semantics. Why do you want to take this to semantics so bad? I know the answer though, it's desperation
>you literally quoted the start of our discussion a few posts ago
Yeah, because you were confused about what we were talking about. Are you still confused?
>trying to sound like a zoomer
>We both know you never got your dick sucked
So mad lmao, at least you didn't copy me verbatim this time
>Imagine writing something like this and still thinking people will take you seriously after.
Oh wait you did, never mind. You're so mad and stupid
>We did talk about what I wanted to talk about
Then what's the point of spending the majority of your post-argument cope crying about how I'm a big meanie because I didn't start the convo by talking about the exact thing you want to talk about? Why reply to me for 6 fucking hours while pretending that my posts had nothing to do with the topic? Fucking laughable, you basically confirmed what we both knew already. There's no honest confusion of any kind, you just lost the argument and thought it would be a good optic to pretend it d-d-doesn't m-m-m-matter because you actually wanted to talk about something else

>>283530784
and also the fact that they could only do that in the first place because they got weaker retrains since they were an experimental gen

>>283548246
>No retard when he started killing his own kind
what the fuck are you on about, queerats fight all the time. kiroumaru is explicit that it is about the queens being heckin' enslaved
>We cannot let him create a society where queens are lobotomized and turned into slaves.

>>283548175
>he hated him because he loved his queenerino more than actually overthrowing humans
Why do people keep forgetting that Squealer started killing his own kind? Kiromaru literally said he wanted to overthrow them but he hated Squeeler for what he did

>>283548190
Ok babe now read the chain all the way to the end and come up with something that isn't circular and hypocritical

>>283548297
see;
>>283548291
again, queerats fought frequently before squealer unified the clans

>>283548271
>Kiromaru was a warrior who had led his troops against his own kind too,
No he didn't. The mock battles between the clans isn't the same thing as Squeeler killing entire clans and queens

>>283548291
>>283548329
see
>>283548339

>>283548339
>The mock battles between the clans
they're not mock battles you idiot, the losing colony gets all its members enslaved.

>>283548291
>>283548329
You are literally making shit up
> squealer unified the clans
He literally broke up the parts who didn't side with him and subjugated the ones that did forcefully. That's the opposite of unification

>>283548359
>they're not mock battles you idiot
They are retard its why when Squealer started breaking protocol that he got called into questioning

>>283529648
tell me more

>>283548383
>>283548398
>But the objective of war is to capture and enslave the opposing colony, so tactics that would cause mass deaths are unsuitable.
>The queen is executed and the rest of the members become slaves. As long as they live they are treated as less than scum, and when they die they are left out to rot and fertilize the fields
either they changed it in the anime or you skipped entire speeches

>>283547764
>says accepts concession
>keeps still obsessively replying
Kek

So this retard is trying to say is that Kiromaru should be ok with siding with someone who will wipe out of his clan at a moments will?

>>283548422
they didn't change it, the guy you're replying to is just a shitposter who argues in bad faith

>>283548450
kiroumaru only cares about his heckin' queen you moron
>We cannot let him create a society where queens are lobotomized and turned into slaves.
>We cannot let him create a society where queens are lobotomized and turned into slaves.
>We cannot let him create a society where queens are lobotomized and turned into slaves.
clans were getting wiped out for years prior to squealer. even the go genius clan got wiped out

>>283530513
we saw how in one of the middle age kingdoms that popped during the millennia that unrestricted cantus could destroy entire nations

>>283548450
None of the other clans had a problem. Everyone else trusted Squealer and look at that, they were so close to victory until Uncle Tom fucked up everything. If it weren't for Saki, Tom's clan would've been wiped out too btw.

>>283548422
It was literally in the anime as well
>>283548459
Dont samefag

>>283526156
SQUEALER DID NOTHING WRONG

>>283548486
...so what is your point? you accept that the anime says that that's what "mock battles" were like?

>>283548484
You literalluy didn't watch the show

>>283548476
Your retarded argument is literally
>Its okay when Squaler does it
When the whole point of the conflict between them was that Squealer was wippingout clans left and right. Nothing in that even supports your claim you fucking faggot

>>283548190
>starts with me saying that random people would exploit the feedback system and get around it which would end that type of society due to their superpowers
Which doesn't happen btw
Your argument is so shit

>>283526156
It's about gun control

>>283548484
>None of the other clans had a problem.
Wrong

>>283548533
Whole point of the conflict was to be free

>>283548533
>When the whole point of the conflict between them was that Squealer was wippingout clans left and right.
i have fucking quoted kiroumaru saying;
>We cannot let him create a society where queens are lobotomized and turned into slaves.
you thick shit. again, clans were wiped out BEFORE squealer

>>283548571
see
>>283547375

Burger detected

>>283548274

>None of that had to do with semantics. Why do you want to take this to semantics so bad? I know the answer though, it's desperation
You lack so much self-awareness and reading comprehension it's actually hilarious. Yeah I'm desperate to keep talking about semantics even though I've said it's the one thing in arguments that pisses me off. But we were done arguing at this >>283546519 point where you stopped responding to anything actually related to the show and have been going on about semantics and nothing else no matter how much you screech it has nothing to do with them. Every post past that point is you being a mad bitch and me egging you on, because what else am I gonna do when we're not talking about the show anymore? Which again was your choice not mine, I can call you a retard all night if you want me to.

>Yeah, because you were confused about what we were talking about. Are you still confused?
Clearly you were the one confused. At the end of this post you admit to this being a post-argument, which means that you admit that what I said was the actual argument, was in fact the actual argument. God you're so dumb.

>mad mad y r u so maaaaad
If you weren't zealously defending an ancient anime in this place I'd think you were new to the internet with how lame your insults are, but sadly you have a learning disability and/or zero creativity.

>There's no honest confusion of any kind, you just lost the argument and thought it would be a good optic to pretend it d-d-doesn't m-m-m-matter because you actually wanted to talk about something else

You're factually the one who stopped talking about the show first in order to "post argument" fume at me, so I already acknowledged you coped and consneeded, I'm just replying to get you to fume more at this point as there's obviously no real argument.

>>283548578
Which is your retarded ass misconstruing the sentence
>clans were wiped out BEFORE squealer
Wrong again dipshit

>>283548547
>Which doesn't happen btw

Which is why I initially said the setting wasn't realistic in that regard. Sorry retard-kun, I know this must be hard for you.

>>283547375
this is 100% some kind of nordcuck socdem
>>283548604
>Which is your retarded ass misconstruing the sentence
hahaha
>Wrong again dipshit
i have literally quoted this;
>The queen is executed and the rest of the members become slaves. As long as they live they are treated as less than scum, and when they die they are left out to rot and fertilize the fields
from the time the kids first encountered the queerats and before squealer rose to power. you're simply dumb and probably a nordcuck

Why does Gigarat care about his queen so much?

>Are all Squeelerfags this retarded

>>283548651
he's a dumb reactionary

>>283548642
So you're just arguing in bad faith then

>>283548676
>ignores everything i've said and just screams ad hominems
incredible

>>283548639
>Which is why I initially said the setting wasn't realistic in that regard
Then you are using a LITERAL FUCKING HEADCANON as an argument
Holy shit you can't be a real person

>>283548761
>pointing out a discrepancy between how humans act in real world societies and a fictional society which is still comprised of humans is "headcanon"

Retard-kun, please.

>>283548821
>this is an argument now because I think people should act like this
Holy shit please be a bot oh no no

Why didn't they just keep some anthrax around?

>>283548864
I think that the human race in stories about the human race should act the way the human race does, yes, hot take I know.

>>283548593
>you stopped responding to anything actually related to the show
Ironic, first you started crying that I wasn't talking about the exact thing you want to discuss, and when I followed your deflecting for the sake of the convo, you jobbed that tangent too, with multiple anons in fact. Rest has been just pure cope about semantics
>even though I've said it's the one thing in arguments that pisses me off
Then stop doing it retard, I'm not going to debate fucking semantics with you, who cares. You're not equipped to do that anyway. You probably threw this fit in the first place because you didn't know what the drone dilemma was and you thought it had something to do with semantics
>At the end of this post you admit to this being a post-argument, which means that you admit that what I said was the actual argument, was in fact the actual argument
Literal schizo babble, zero logic. I don't care what you think the real argument is, said this multiple times
>mad mad y r u so maaaaad
Okay you're actually melting. I knew it was happening because the way you copy my insults pretty transparently shows when they hurt bad lmao
>I'm just replying to get you to fume more at this point
The "I'm just an epic troll" defense is a classic cope for sure. Too bad we both know what's going on, though. I've met a few obsessive shit flingers who get so invested in their farts that they seriously think they can somehow turn around the optics on this one, or that something good happens if you keep crying for another 6 hours. Try that one out though, maybe on page 10 someone will finally recognize that your epic headcanons ackhtually make you sound smart. Go on little bro, be a real human

>>283536037
Cantus is literally toxic
Is explained in the show that all the monsters in the new world are basically mutated animals by cantus that don't actually follow real evolution
All the subconscious nightmares of the human mind transform the ecosystem in a real nightmare were monsters are designed to murder you
The "sacred barrier" system was designed to push all the cantus toxicity out of the village and in the end they end up fucking the whole world

>>283548960
>humans must act like how they act in my headcanons or I get mad
That's great honey, now get back to writing your fanfic

>>283548450
>>283548476
The point of the show is that Squealer lost because he was too human.
He couldn't factor other queerats not wanting to be actual humans and actually wanting to remain queerats with the queen system and being subservient to cantus users

>>283549025
the show doesn't have a point. again, the events of the show only occur because team one had reduced brainwashing and frequently got bailed out by the head of the ethics committee because she wanted to retire

>>283548593
You didn't (You) one of my posts by the way so I won

>>283549060
Doesn't Saki monologue the point in the ending

>>283548961
>Ironic, first you started crying that I wasn't talking about the exact thing you want to discuss

You butt into a convo about a specific thing and I'm the one "crying" for trying to keep you on track of said specific thing, holy shit you're so fucking autistic. Re-read what you just wrote, please, you sound like an absolute retard no one should waste their time talking to, I wonder how long it's been for you that you've met someone with the patience for your degree of aspergers, I almost feel bad.

>Then stop doing it retard, I'm not going to debate fucking semantics with you, who cares. You're not equipped to do that anyway.

You've been doing it for almost three hours lmfao, I've already pointed out the exact spot the argument ended.

>Literal schizo babble, zero logic. I don't care what you think the real argument is, said this multiple times

Now this is schizo babble, no one sane would read "I don't care what you think the real argument is" and take it as anything else. Nice deflection by the way on you admitting as much when you dropped the term "post-argument", you completely owned yourself with that one.

>Okay you're actually melting. I knew it was happening because the way you copy my insults pretty transparently shows when they hurt bad lmao

I thought "no u" was a bad comeback. Oh wait that's right you have a learning disability and/or zero creative thought.

>The "I'm just an epic troll" defense is a classic cope for sure.

There is no defense here, we clearly haven't been arguing about the show in a while, so yes what else can I do but make you seethe more? Again you admitted as much by acknowledging a post-argument. Well, I am trying to get you to be more introspective but I don't have high hopes for that one.

>>283549073
This, there's posts he ignored so I got the last word

>>283549113
(You)

>>283549093
her point is we must...le change!!! which is dumb and meaningless

>>283549011
Was reality my headcanon or the lack of what happened in the show? It can't be both at once, come on retard-kun I know your two sweating brain cells can do it.

>>283549155
>W-w-w-w-as r-r-r-real---
Yawn
Get more realistic headcanons