What was the message of Vinland Saga?
>>284585951Based message but you don't have to word it so gay
it's ptsd and backlash from the cultural standards he grew up withironically, had he grown up in a more peaceful society he would probably had ended up with less of a non-violence policy
>>284585951If you want to go on an adventure, make sure your leaders aren't a Pacifist Faggot and a Simp.
>>284585951"I have depicted myself as the pacifist chad and you as the backwards savage-jack"That's literally it
>>284585951Bully pacifists until the stop being retarded or they will cause death and destruction.
>>284585951>cultivatedropped
>>284586074How is the message "based"?Yeah sure, HE might be at peace, but it doesn't discount the death and suffering that was led by his decisions. His victims definitely didn't enjoy the same emotional enlightenment. In the end, he put his own ideology over the well being of those whom entrusted him with their lives.
>>284586804>>284586830>>284586870Aggressive, low-IQ barbarians
the message is that Trans Women are Real Women
>>284587110Based
>>284585951Did it finish?
>>284589478Yes, months ago
>>284587096Congratulations, you're the target audience Have fun only being able to read as deep as the author intended you to
>>284587622Nah as cringe as tranny Thorkell.
>>284586680>>284586830>>284586870Just because you dont agree with thorfin's extremist pacifism doesn't mean it's bad character growth. It's literally good writing. You're just retarded because you don't have empathy
This shit should've ended where season 2 of the anime did, everything following Farmland Saga was absolute dogshit leading off to killing of Einar and immediately ending the manga with "idk we'll go somewhere else lol" was as bad if not worse than Attack on Titan. I'll never understand how Yukimura wrote both halves of the story.
>>284590470>t. moeshit low t tranime enjoyeryou will never be thorfinn, tryhard pseud
All of the retards calling him cucks for being a pacafistt are overweight internet warriors who literally spend all day larping as someone who's eventually going to "do something" (they never will)The message of the anime is entirely correct lol..simply look at who's disagreeing and laugh
>>284590572>t. IQ <65just kill yourself, fucking subhuman. people like you are the reason why we have wars and tribalism in this 3dpd shit world
>>284590584this. The same fat fuck /pol/ niggers calling him a weak cuck will cry glowie when you call them out for not doing shit.
>writing finally looks like it's going to get good again with Thorfinn's ideals really being put to the test and the flaws exposed, with everyone around him paying the price>no actual resolution they just kill off the 2nd most important character and the series is overWHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY THINKIIIIIIIIIIIINGGGGGGGG
>>284590590how the fuck do you take any of that from my post you fucking idiot? You realize "I have no enemies" was from the end of Farmland Saga right?
>>284590590Luckily your tribe will die in this generation by based India/Chinese. See ya in hell trans.
>>284590674i'm a high t musular man with convictions, tranime enjoyer. there's a reason why i related with thorfinn, but what would a neckbearded goy know
pacifism and egalitarianism is so le hecking based and wholesome chungus!! *gets culturally enriched by brown people to extinction*
>>284590584>>284590608Stop simping for a male 2-dimensional character.
Thorfinn would 100% be calling for infinity indian immigrants in the modern day
>>284585951Ultimately, the issue with the series is that it set to explore pacifism and its extremes, but in the end, did not provide a compelling argument for it, but rather ended on a general note of continuing the search for peace.
>>284590584now try reading the manga
How do you respond without sounding mad?
>>284590781He doesn't know how take care of it
>>284590781How the fuck did the guy who write the Askeladd scenes end up writing this clusterfuck?
>>284590802>He doesn't know how to take care of her
>>284590814got married and turned feminist (literally said this in one of the volumes), started putting trans shit in his manga and went off the rails with suicidal ideology
>>284590845>started putting trans shit in his mangawat
>>284590893you'll find out next season, secondary
>>284590893trans vikings were always a thing, chud
>>284590974>All of Cordelia's pivotal moments are due to being born a manWhat did Yukimura mean by this?
>>284590525Why do you think that's what's going on here?>>284590575Why would I want to be Thorfin? Sure he was a great man, stuck to his principles no matter what because he thought he was doing the right thing, but he was wrong.
>>284590614Nothing Nothing at all Thorfin is the author's puppet to show how much better his worldview is than yours
>>284590814Genuinely he doesn't understand what was good about what he wrote
Thorfinn made his pacifism everyone else's problem. He could only afford to hold that ideology because of the strength he built up courtesy of the men who believe in the opposite of what he does. No matter what situation he puts himself into he can get out of it in spite of his pacifism, not as a result of it. Canute's men never would have accepted Thorfinn were he not strong enough to withstand 100 punches, he would be nothing but a fool.The same cannot be said for those who follow him. What other choice do they have but to stand by the absolute pinnacle of strength that he represents? The only man who can truly lead his people, and yet through his own selfish beliefs he does nothing but lead them to ruin while he lives on continuing to espouse his ideals that have accomplished nothing. Thorfinn is the villian of Vinland Saga.
>>284585951Pusuit of a pacifist life is hard and nigh impossible, but it deserves sympathey
>>284591489>No...this manga is...BAD...I want...I need...MORE violence and deathThis is you. It's clear to see who the real villain is.
>>284591906The manga is bad not because violence and death is good, the manga is bad because it presents Thorfinn and his ideology as good to Einar's dying breath. How many innocent people died as a direct result of Thorfinn's refusal to use his strength for the bare minimum self-defense? There is no resolution, no achievement. Thorfinn fails to protect a single person throughout the entire second half of the manga, many innocents dying as a direct result of his ideology while he continues to walk free thanks to the killers who raised him.He abandons those who wish to stay in Iceland and gives no choice to the ones who ultimately choose to follow by taking away from them the strength he and others who follow hold. His followers only escape from Vinland thanks to the strength of those willing to fight and defend the weak, including Cornelia and Hild. They did not survive thanks to pacifism, they survived thanks to strength. Einar did not die because he rejected pacifism, he died because Thorfinn led them naked into hell.It's deeply hypocritical and flawed when you think about it for more than 5 minutes.
>>284591906Violence in service of defending those who can't defend themselves is good. Thorfinn coerced weak people to travel to a violent land with no means to defend themselves and refused to use violence to defend them.
If only this story never changed from being a euro version of Kingdom
>Author has some knowledge about history unlike Yukimura.>Shows off the pros and cons of war and violence.>Pulls off a believable happy ending.Pure kino of a historical manga.
>>284585951rather than a message it is a self admission by the writer>I have never touched grasspacifism is a self destructive, spoiled and childishly naive ideology that leads to degradation and destruction of everything its practitioners hold dear. There is no need to even argue about it because it is self evident to anyone who has ever went out of their room. War requires discipline, progress, innovation, efficiency and competence, it forces to strive to perfection and mercilessly crushes those who are unfit. Pacifism demands all its practitioners to die like cattle the moment someone doesn't want to play their game.
>>284585951>>284587096If you hold a gun and I hold a gun, we can talk about the law.If you hold a knife and I hold a knife, we can talk about rules.If you come empty handed and I come empty handed, we can talk about reason.But if you have a gun and I only have a knife, then the truth lies in your hands.If you have a gun and I have nothing, what you hold isn't just a weapon, it's my life.The concepts of laws, rules and morality only hold meaning when they are based on equality.The harsh truth of this world is that when money speaks, truth goes silent. And when power speaks, even money takes three steps back.Those who create the rules are often the first to break them. Rules are chains for the weak, tools for the strong.In this world, anything good must be fought for.The masters of the game are fiercely competing for resources while only the weak sit idly, waiting to be given a share.
>>284592228>i depicted myself as the chad "left room" to your "stayed in room"This is how I know it is a larperIf whenever you walk to the market, you walk into open warfare...what kinda suburb do you live in? Are you sure it is not your brain on lsd imagining all this? This may or may not be true for a manga that depicts a different society, for a modern society it is larp.
>>284591489I don't get how the guy who made Askeladd's story ended up with the 2nd half of Vinland. Just wanting to coast on the steady paycheck it provided doesn't really explain it either. It's like the author was split into two halves and the worse half kept winning
>>284590781
>>284590781>drives out the nordcucks saving his people from sickness>takes all their stuff>becomes the new clan leader>laughs at them while flashing the shit you stole from them when they leavepsychopath indian Vegeta won so hard
It's about how pacifism could lead to a better path for everyone and that most of our violence and problems are fabricated, not inevitable. It also shows the drawbacks and pitfalls of trying to live by a better standard in a world like this. I think most of the critics of Thorfinn's philosophy and how things turned out ignore how stupid most of the decisions leading to violence are. The manga shows this over and over again. People are chained to what they feel is normal, what they believe to be inevitable, and what they think is just practical. Violence with the natives in Vinland only happened because of people making decisions that they think had less risk without actually thinking it through. And even then it took a cascade of several bad choices by the people to turn out as poorly as it did.Critics manage to ignore all of that and then ignore all of the times the manga illustrates the flaws in Thorfinn's pacifism. They act like the series is trying to sell absolute pacifism as something to actually do rather than portraying an ideal coming into contact with reality. Everything the priest says during the first part of the story sailed right over their heads.
>>284592860it's so fucking funny to me that Yukimura can draw this scene and then still try to say "see guys pacifism is correct"some real Rent a Girlfriend shit
>>284593070>They act like the series is trying to sell absolute pacifism as something to actually do rather than portraying an ideal coming into contact with reality.I really believed Yukimura was actually going to do this once they arrived in Vinland and shit went bad but then the final chapter happened. Thorfinn never paid the price for his choices he always got away scot-free while the weak people he strung along suffered. Einar's death was EXPLICITLY a result of Thorfinn's choices and it's basically just glossed over as he leaves Vinland to go fuck his wife somewhere else consequence-free.
>>284593070I think their main problem was that there was thesis and antithesis, but no sensible synthesis. It's blueballing at best and makes the author look naive at worst.
It's quite rare for a manga to piss me off but Vinland Saga did it so well. Thorfinn and Yukimura's ideals are an utter insult to the name of pacifism to the point it's better to call it masochism instead.
>>284585951Fathers are important, the lack of a father figure may lead to abnormal development.
>>284593444bro Thorfinn had TWO fathers
>>284593109He lost his brother and his expedition failed. Plenty of people died. That's not consequence free. One of the story's themes is that who lives and who dies isn't some proof of merit or virtue, hence people like Canute and Thorfinn surviving despite everything and many good people and innocents dying.Einar died because of his own choices: He chose to go with Thorfinn on the trip, he chose to side with the group preparing for war, he chose to fight despite seeing what it does to others, and he chose to side with the truce at the very end despite the risks of that, too. He tries to claim he had no choice but realizes quickly that it's just a platitude to comfort himself. His choices led him there.>>284593252The synthesis is pretty clear: Trying to do the right thing is risky, but it may be worth it. Things only get better when people try again and again to do something better than their ancestors. Thorfinn was too early and too unlucky, but he showed that it was possible.I think it's the idea that things could be better if we were willing to take real risks is what pisses a lot of people off. You don't have to look further than this thread to find people who think violence is inevitable in an absurdly broad sense and that it justifies just about anything as long as you come out on top. The notion that they could be (just could!) wrong is deeply offensive to them.
Vinland saga is quite a great manga if you stop reading it before the farm saga.
>>284585951The weak should fear the strong
>>284593672Might makes right
>>284590525The only issue is that the story glazes him endlessly and refuses to acknowledge his failures outside of portraying him as tragic hero.
>>284585951Understanding that there is evil in the world and it must be cut out is based. Having "no enemies" interpreted in the wrong way becomes some self righteous defeatest mindest that gets innocents, your people, your family and everybody that you love killed.
>>284585951The problem with Vinland Saga to me, and what ends up somewhat deflating its message, is that it can't decide if it wants to be a grounded, realistic show or a battle show with an undefined magical power system. The first season is a bit more of the latter, the second season a bit more of the former. Its much harder to take "I have no enemies" literally in the former case.That being said I think Thorfinns whole character arc is so beautiful and well-crafted that I can still somewhat forgive this. I pretty much choose to interpret "you don't have enemies" in the most general and abstract way possible, one of mindset, not that its literally always possible for a mortal being to rise above the strife and conflict of the world.
>>284593634>Einar died because of his own choices: He chose to go with Thorfinn on the trip, he chose to side with the group preparing for war, he chose to fight despite seeing what it does to others, and he chose to side with the truce at the very end despite the risks of that, too. He tries to claim he had no choice but realizes quickly that it's just a platitude to comfort himself. His choices led him there.And yet through all of that ultimately Einar would still die in the end. Because he's weak. And Thorfinn would live. Because he's strong.
>>284593634>One of the story's themes is that who lives and who dies isn't some proof of merit or virtue, hence people like Canute and Thorfinn surviving despite everything and many good people and innocents dying.If you don't think the strongest man alive challenged only by Thorkell himself and fucking KING CANUTE surviving isn't proof of merit or virtue I don't know what to tell you nigga. This is some real Ninja God Naruto shit.
>>284593766This. Ultimately the concept behind Thorfinn's ideals was admirable. The "I have no enemies" moment is extremely powerful. Unfortunately the way he later conducts himself based upon that serves to do nothing but jeopardize the safety of everyone searching for the safety Thorfinn pretends to offer. Throughout the entire second half of the manga he does nothing but gamble with other people's lives and act sad when it doesn't work out at every single turn.
>>284593775>That being said I think Thorfinns whole character arc is so beautiful and well-crafted that I can still somewhat forgive this.you ain't gonna think that once the rest of it gets animated lmfao this series REALLY should've stopped exactly where season 2 did.
>>284593842>>284593824And yet strong people die all the time (Askeladd, Bjorn, King Sweyn, Thors, every viking soldier we see that dies). It's not based on merit or virtue. Canute's aims of peace by violence never pan out. He unifies his burgeoning empire and it violently implodes within a decade of his death after being united through conquest. Askeladd's death only buys a short reprieve measured in years for Wales.>>284593886>but jeopardize the safety of everyone searching for the safety Thorfinn pretends to offer. Thorfinn is very upfront about the risks involved in this expedition and what the aims of it are. People signed on and then didn't listen to him which made the situation worse every time. At no point is the expedition to Vinland portrayed as a sure thing - it's a massive risk, a huge chance, but perhaps the only one they have. They and the natives end up recreating what they're avoiding out of fear.>>284592058Not using violence was the entire point and it was one they signed on for. Thorfinn didn't coerce anybody. The Vinland expedition was known to be risky out the gate.>>284590781Thorfinn's making that face because he knows Ga'aoqi's arrogant enough to think having a shiny sword will bring him nothing but prosperity. He knows the war's not going to earn them anything. If Ga'aoqi survives his ambitions, he's going to have brought nothing but suffering to his own people for no reason.
Yukimura's strongest and gayest soldier
>>284585951I think at first the guy just wanted to make a cool historical fanfic based on the sagas but it lost the plot and he ended inserting his pacifist tendencies into it too much.
The author is clearly a pampered child with never had problems that required force.
I have no ACKKKK BUT I WATCH VINLAND SAAGAAAAHHH
>>284594189This, editor should have told him to stop inserting his thoughts into the story, and write it from a third person perspective.It almost makes me wonder if yukimura even had an editor because i don't understand how this got past that.
“I’m like Guts but instead I’m a major pussy ass bitch”Is still the best quote to describe the series
>>284585951Hate, violence and conflict might give you a sense of belonging and purpose but they ultimately contribute nothing of substance and value to your existence.
>>284594214>guy who preached violence>gets clipped by a schizo>muh pacifismmuch to think about
>>284594259>older than Vinland saga and wrote half the Bible When I am weaker than you , I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles ; when I am stronger than you , I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles .
He had to put in the Viking trannie but Canute the character he set up since season 1
>>284594314*not Canute
>>284585951>What was the message of Vinland Saga?No clue, I never read this tranny shit.
The pacifist message is so annoying too because it's so counterproductive, they could have easily won against the natives, and easily established the colony with no problems, if they had dropped the no violence rule, since they have superior weapons and men, but nooo we gotta prove the point,that we have no enemies, even if literally doing violence is how we actually get no enemies.
>>284590525TheMC is quite literally the worst part of the manga because of how forced and boring his story is.He starts as a boring edgelord and ends up being a boring pacifist. When Askelaad died the story became so boring it's unbearable.
>>284594156>Not using violence was the entire point and it was one they signed on for. Thorfinn didn't coerce anybody. The Vinland expedition was known to be risky out the gate.Thorfinn is still a hypocrite, because he's secretly 20 times as fit and agile as any other settler in his groupand he continues to use these abilities to survive, while preaching that force isn't necessaryhis lifetime of combat experience is what's making his "peaceful diplomacy" possible in the first place
>>284594156>Canute's aims of peace by violence never pan out. He unifies his burgeoning empire and it violently implodes within a decade of his death after being united through conquest. Askeladd's death only buys a short reprieve measured in years for Wales.This is a profoundly meaningless statement. China, Japan, Italy, United States and a bunch of other nations were united permanently or formed through violent conquest."Violence doesn't offer lasting solutions except when it does" - thank you, mr Yukimura, very profound.
>>284594349Before God I swear this creed: my rifle and myself are defenders of my country, we are the masters of our enemy, we are the saviors of my life. So be it, until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.
>>284594156>And yet strong people die all the time (Askeladd, Bjorn, King Sweyn, Thors, every viking soldier we see that dies). It's not based on merit or virtue.top kekAskeladd, Bjorn and Thors all died because they chose itand they were able to choose it because they were the masters of their own fateit's not even about what I think about violence, it's that the manga keeps depicting violence as powerful, in direct opposition to its supposed message
>>284592058>Violence in service of defending those who can't defend themselves is good. Thorfinn coerced weak people to travel to a violent land with no means to defend themselves and refused to use violence to defend them.Wasn't this the main theme of the Gundam Wing sequel movie?
>>284594392>were united permanently or formed through violent conquest.>"permanently"To what end? Qin Shi Huang killed twice as many people in 20 years of conquest and repression than the previous 200 years of open war between the warring states. China's entire history is unifying and then exploding, killing more people than a disunited China ever did. Unifying Japan just led to them intentionally killing off as many of their own people as they could in failed invasions of Korea and, after industrializing, raping all of Asia and then being nuked. And America, once it was done with its various genocides, internal conflicts, and border wars just turned its violence outward to nobody's benefit, not even its own.>>284594349Violence is how you create enemies. That's the point. Even if they somehow managed to genocide all of the Lnu in the area while still retaining enough settlers to sustain the colony, that only buys them time until the tribes beyond begin to move into the area or other expeditions arrive and the fight begins anew. You secure your borders and people by making friends and allies - even bellicose nations understand this.>no problemsPeople die in war. Even with victory a bunch of settlers would've died. Their own civilian women and children would've died, too.>>284594374>while preaching that force isn't necessaryBecause it's not. Thorfinn doesn't think you shouldn't defend yourself, but he avoids force whenever he possibly can because the mere threat of it provokes violent reactions. The entire conflict with the Lnu occurs because everybody ignores him and follows their "common sense" from societies broken by conflict, even though the entire point of the expedition was to do something different.>his lifetime of combat experience is what's making his "peaceful diplomacy" possible in the first placeEverything about the fort and the sword flew over your head. The threat of strength is what instigates conflict.
>>284594297Not even the same nation/country
>>284594727Nah bro your retarded, go die from your suicidal pacifism if you want just don't include me
>>284594595How can you claim to be the master of your own fate if you "choose" to be a man of war and die violently? Wanting to kill and wanting to die is mental illness, and those "powerful" men are slaves to it.
>>284594349>>284594727Si vis pacem para bellum
>>284594595Bjorn was already dying when he performed suicide-by-Askeladd. It's no different than if he'd fallen on his sword or bled out on the field - he was already dead from his wounds. His death was already certain before he made the choice to fight Askeladd to enter Valhalla.Thors didn't choose his death. Askeladd had ensured it with the archers and Thors was just at peace with it. Thorfinn survived because Thors appealed to what heart Askeladd had left, not because Thors beat his ass.Askeladd's the only one that chose his own death.>depicting violence as powerful, in direct opposition to its supposed messageThat IS the message. Did you not understand the extremely obvious sword metaphor that he had the characters explain out loud for the particularly stupid readers? Violence is portrayed again and again as powerful, seductive, and enticing. Characters choose it because they are enraptured by it or think it'll solve their problems. Sometimes it can, the story doesn't shy from that, but it also causes new ones. That's the tragedy of the story of Arneid, of Ketil's sons, Canute, the colony, Askeladd, and everyone else. Violence is the easy path even if it's more destructive path.Pacifism, peace, and love are constantly shown to be the harder path. That's the inherent struggle of the manga; doing the right thing is difficult and dangerous and often has no material reward.
>>284585951nips can't write vikings for shit (neither the french for that matter)
Post prologe VS was a mistake, this manga should have stucked with the north sea politics invasions and all of that instead if deviating into this drama pacifist redemption bullshit.
>>284594983there is nothing easier than doing nothing
>>284594856That'd be more compelling if it wasn't a phrase from a culture founded by belligerent rapists who never once desired peace. I've got a better one:ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant>>284594782I'm not a pacifist in the way Thorfinn is, I just understand what the story is saying. I think it's pretty clear that most of the people in this thread complaining about the story fundamentally misunderstand it because they have difficulty even trying to understand ideas they don't agree with on gut reflex. That and/or very poor reading comprehension.>just don't include meThat's literally the point of Thorfinn's pacifism. People need to opt into it. He can explain and preach and demonstrate it, but he won't force you to do so. Why does it piss you off when people don't want to kill people?
>>284594727>To what end?you're fucking retarded
>>284595139>Muh poor reading comprehensionOr maybe the message is shit, ever thought of that
>>284595152>When many flag become one flag that better because it just is, okay?Outrageously stupid. Beyond parody. Every example you gave just demonstrated that unification was nothing but a power grab by elites that killed even more people than disunity did. Since you're very stupid, here's an example that would actually work for the point you were trying to make: Switzerland.
>>284594727>Everything about the fort and the sword flew over your head. The threat of strength is what instigates conflict.get off your high horse, anonit's not about the fort, it's about how Thorfinn is constantly in personal danger, and constantly solves it by having badass agility and combat awarenessother anons already pointed out how his "pacifism" is unreachable by normal people without protagonist powersyou're saying his philosophy is right, if only the whole world worked differentlyyeah, I bet it would great in some hypothetical other society that is unlike oursand Thors was the sameall this nobility and peacefulnessbut it turns out, when shit gets tough, it's really helpful if you can solo 30 pirates
>>284595208That'd be a fine point to make, unfortunately the people in this thread aren't articulate enough to make it because not one of them has been able to understand what the message actually is before criticizing it. They don't disagree with the message because they don't even understand it; they disagree with a vague impression of the message.
>>284594983>Pacifism, peace, and love are constantly shown to be the harder path. not only harderbut ineffective, and ultimately powerlessit's not the harder solution, it's not a solution at allall the people I mentioned chose to die, because they chose their lifethey weren't thrust into it because someone else raided them or enslaved them or whateverBjorn died a warrior, just like he wantedThors negotiated with Askeladd thanks to his strength they could do that because they were strong
>>284585951didn't read any of the midwit replies (every reply except mine)The message of Vinland Saga is:>You can find a niche financial success by pandering to Westerners, even if you're a braindead bugman who lectures people by attacking strawmen.
>>284595274Sure i acknowledge im retarded, but even i can see how shit and forced the pacifism is
>>284590525It is incredibly shit character growth, because both Thorsd and Canute were both superior in how they framed these ideals. Thorfinn was just a retard.
What even was the point of the pacifism anyways if they have nothing to show for it in the end. Literally none of it mattered tier ending. It's such a bad ending im not surprised nobody even talks about it anymore.
>>284595235>it's not about the fortIt is about the fort. Thorfinn can defend himself from most personal danger, but that would only be a counterpoint to if he was expecting other people to do so or thought it was necessary to his philosophy. He doesn't display how strong he is to dissuade violence as part of this - he understand that, just like the fort, showing your propensity for violence puts people on guard. It makes a compelling argument for them to prepare for what violence you COULD do to them by attempting to meet it in advance. And once everyone has hammers all of the problems start looking like nails.Anyway, at no point does Thorfinn believe that the way forward is for everyone to be able to fight like him. He sees resorting to even non-lethal violence as a failure of his. You can call it hypocritical, and sure, but it's also something he could only reach by being steeped in violence, just as his father had.>his "pacifism" is unreachable by normal people without protagonist powersThorfinn didn't achieve his own ideal of pacifism, either. And part of the ideal is that you risk your own life by pursuing it. That includes being willing to die.>but it turns out, when shit gets tough, it's really helpful if you can solo 30 piratesWas it? He still died. And they only sought him out because of his violent past.>you're saying his philosophy is right,I'm not.>if only the whole world worked differentlyThat's how philosophies work, yeah. We have an objective reality, but our subjective perceptions of it influence our decisions. We're not entirely rational creatures. We can see aspects of Thorfinn's philosophy working today. But no philosophy is coded into reality. Many people try to claim that "might makes right" is some natural law, but if I accurately identify that the sky is blue and you cave my skull in with a rock, that doesn't actually change the color of the sky. You're still not right.
>>284594787now that's just sophistryyou can do better, anon
>>284595523>>if only the whole world worked differently >That's how philosophies work, yeah. We have an objective reality, but our subjective perceptions of it influence our decisions. We're not entirely rational creatures. We can see aspects of Thorfinn's philosophy working today. But no philosophy is coded into reality.I'm sorry anon, I can't do ityou seem eloquent, but it's like you've dug a really deep well from which you exclusively speakI don't have the energy to correct youyou're so entrenched, you're beginning to deconstruct and subvert basic notions just to make them fit your point
>>284595139>I'm not a pacifist in the way Thorfinn is, I just understand what the story is saying. I think it's pretty clear that most of the people in this thread complaining about the story fundamentally misunderstand it because they have difficulty even trying to understand ideas they don't agree with on gut reflex. That and/or very poor reading comprehension. pot calling kettle blackdid it occur to you that maybe people are not necessarily expressing their own ideas, but are saying that the manga does a poor job of conveying its ideas? are you the only one allowed to discuss a viewpoint that is not your own?
>>284594727>To what end?All you can do is deflect. You said the message of the manga is 'violence doesn't offer permanent solutions' when it empirically does. To what end is meaningless, there can be many various ends.Canute's empire, British empire, USSR etc fell apart but Italy exists as it does because it was conquered by Rome. Same deal with other nations mentioned, they exists as they do today because of violence.Pretending there is some kind of one definitive rule is retarded.
>>284585951Cuckoldry is okay.
>>284594392>China, Japan, Italy, United States and a bunch of other nations were united permanently>permanentlyI doubt it.
>>284592177That author also has a weird fixation for loli rape. Yukimura would never.
Pozzed piece of shit.
>>284585951violence is bad or something
>>284590781Yeah and it worked so well for native americans
>>284596406The fact that they will collapse eventually doesn't invalidate they were unified for ages.
>>284594392>China, Japan, Italy, United States and a bunch of other nations were united permanentlyItaly is trying to disunite all the time, and the autonomist movements are incredibly strong there.CHina also has quite strong autonomist movements both in the south and west, that oppose the northern dominance.US is solely held together by ducktape called glowies.Japan is an outlier, mostly due to the fact that it is culturally homogenous and unification happened thousands of years ago.
>>284594727>To what end? Qin Shi Huang killed twice as many people in 20 years of conquest and repression than the previous 200 years of open war between the warring states. China's entire history is unifying and then exploding, killing more people than a disunited China ever did.And enriching everyone in the times it wasn't exploding and killing everyone. Notice how most Chinese inventions and economic growth happened when China wasn't disunited? Even the Chinese knew this, that's why in Three Kingdoms period Jiang Wei got told to stop his retarded expedition wars to restore the Han Dynasty and Shu Han surrendered for the sake of the people and Wu surrendered even more easily because disunity brought only more war.
>>284597313>unification happened thousands of years ago.???
Yukimura writes catolism / cristianism as lefty reddit user
>>284594727>To what end?Peace and prosperity.It doesn't matter if its not "permanent", nothing on this world is permanent, only death. Not even the MC's philosophy offers an actual effective answer.You can say that he just bought some years to Wales, but I'm pretty sure several people at Wales would be happy with that. You can say that X or Y nation didn't last, but that doesn't take away the moments of peace and prosperity it generated in between.The world is ciclical, it has highs and lows, rebirth and decay. There is no answer that bring stasis other than death.
>>284598334Reddit hates Christians, anon.
>>284585951AI-tier quote.
