>retards tellingly default to blaming Lee and Hackmoto for hard work VS talent shitflinging>completely forget this scene or the majority of 2000s games even just loosely adapting it
>>284599468Vegeta was still much stronger than Goku here, goku surpassed him through bs zenkai on the way to Namek. His zenkais resulted in higher boosts simply because he’s the MC
>>284599539Goku still wounded Vegeta's pride with nothing but good teachers and training. He lost that beam struggle then resorted to using Oozaru when it's only reserved for conquering planets.
>>284599468It’s because Rock Lee brainwashed people into thinking Naruto was about hard work despite the fact that he always got his ass kicked
Fact is, it's not about talent or hard work, but using either for a good cause.
>>284600276This. Most of the talented heroes in these works end up having to work hard anyways.
>>284600205Naruto VS Neji was still about the underdog overcoming his destiny as inferior.
>>284599468The idea of being sent to an easy planet as a punishment is so funny. "Oh woe is me, I get the payday for way less effort than the others"
>>284600445Low hanging fruit. It's an insult as warriors.
>>284600445The bad part is that you get dumped in the middle of nowhere as a toddler where you'll likely die and have no opportunity for career advancement
>>284600445No such thing as difficulty, all kids sent to planets would lose their consciousness once they become an oozaru
>>284600393Neji lost though.
>>284601637Yes, the point is they completely shit on the message later by making him right about destiny.
>>284599468It's both talent and hard work. Talenrt makes it easier for you to learn and make you be able to achieve highs points higher than the possible high points of others but you still have to learn and train to achieve these high points.
>>284599539Unironically how did Goku show up on Namek stronger than Vegeta when Vegeta was also farming zenkai boosts from getting his ass beat.
>>284603563Goku trained better by pushing himself to the limit at each level of gravity then recovering instead of just repeatedly nearly getting himself killed like a retard. King Kai already taught him this.
>>284603563Goku trained during his entire trip to Namek. Also Vegeta wasn't really farming on purpose.
>>284603843Saiyans get a bigger boost from actual combat though.
>>284603563Ok I'll do a short storytime
>>284604146
>>284604166
>>284599468Goku vs Vegeta was a fight between the MC and a major antagonist, it was a brutal fight Goku and friends barely won. The theme is put to rest there and doesn't show up again.Lee vs Gaara was between a side character and a major antagonist. Lee lost, but not before cultivating a huge fanbase. Then Kishimoto made a mistake, he continued the idea with Naruto vs Neji. Now it looks like Hardwork vs Talent is a big theme in Naruto. Then Kishimoto fucks up again ages later by making Naruto and Sasuke the ultimate gifted children. What does this mean? The manga looks like it's saying Talent is superior. This was unacceptable to people because Talent is the more grim answer of the two. Hardwork gives hope because you can always improve, Talent gives despair because it means you have to roll well at birth, else you're fucked. Naruto mindbroke its fanbase of Leefags. Now Narutofags look for Hardwork vs Talent in all shonen, and if they imply Talent is superior then that manga is instantly shit.
>>284604189
>>284604218
>>284604120Never told>>284599468This is a great scene. Goku ACTUALLY embodies nurture vs nature here, because all his accomplishments needed him to meet the right people.
>>284604237>>284604218Toriyama was unrivaled
>>284604251People discredit all the great teachers who made someone like Goku into a master fighter able to stand against Piccolo, Vegeta or Frieza.
>>284603563goku's base power level on namek was actually relatively low. Ginyu was able to control his power level just like the Z-Warriors, but he only managed to squeeze 23.000 out of Goku's body which is actually lower than the max strength Vegeta had at the beginning of the arc. The reason Goku was so strong was because he kept multiplying his power via the kaioken in short explosive bursts.
>>284605755Goku's power was like 90,000 even without the Kaioken. Ginyu gauged his max at around 85,000, and then when Goku used the kaioken it shot up to 180,000. Ginyu was way worse at controlling Goku's power even not accounting for the kaioken.Of course part of the point of power levels is that they are a flawed way of measuring how strong someone actually is. Goku was stomping Jeice and Burter while their scouters read 5,000.
>>284600276>>284600351Yup. Vegeta was complacent with his power and coasted on it until that point. Happens a lot in real life to people who peak early.
>>284605995I guess that tracks, I forgot goku actually announced when he decided to use the kaio-ken for the first time. Thanks for the correction
>>284604251>Never toldThe boost vegeta got from krillin and the boost goku got from ginyu were greater that what goku got from training.
>>284604251>Goku ACTUALLY embodies nurture vs nature hereGoku has been on performance enhancing drugs ever since drinking the sacred water. I can't believe they never made him take a piss test for the tenkaichi budokai.
>>284606784Vegeta got meager +30% boosts from Zarbon and Recoome. None of that is supposed to make sense numerically.
>>284599468You can tell Toriyama hadn't thought up Vegeta's backstory here yet.He was still a child when his planet was destroyed, and he spent most of his life as Frieza's slave. He never really benefited from being an "elite" and was surrounded by non-Saiyans that were stronger than him.Goku had a relatively comfortable life on Earth, made lots of friends, and had several mentors.
>>284607284He was already the strongest Saiyan in history when he was a child, and I guess he took a lot of pride in bossing around Nappa and Raditz
>>284607284Vegeta was only weaker than Zarbon/Dodoria, the Ginyus and Freeza. I can see him having spent so many years destroying weaklings he'd have unwarranted arrogance as an elite fighter.
>>284607444Before he came to Earth, Vegeta was only about as strong as Cui
>>284607466Yeah that's what I said. Believe it or not, Cui is kind of a big deal relative to the random ayy. At this point in the story at least.
Are there any doujins with Cui bullying shota Vegeta? Surely there's at least one.
>>284606086This is exactly why everyone objects to saying Bejita is a smarter fighter.
>>284608339Vegeta being a smarter fighter might only be true with DBS TARDku
>>284608339Vegeta is smart at fighting dirty and bluffing but he is a retard at training
