why's this considered a pinnacle show? is it just because i don't like sports that i'm ambivalent about it? I'm 60 episodes in and it's entertaining enough but not life changing or the pinnacle of story. No, the animation doesn't bother me, it's purely the subject matter and writing.
It's not about sports. It's about how post-war Japan can mess you up.
>>284963784It's because you're a faggot.
>>284963784>Joe>sports
>>284963784If you're watching something just because you feel like you have to, you'll never actually get it.It's like how people force themselves to watch Citizen Kane and don't get the hype around it, because they're looking for whatever it is they want out of a film, rather than actually taking in what the media is offering.
>>284964098and wealth inequality, and institutionalized violence, and self-destruction in the name of manliness & honor, and people with nothing to gain or lose looking for a good death, and how "polite society"'s endless bloodlust
>>284963784it gets good from season 2 and onwards. if you're at episode 60 of s1, you can start season two
>>284964207i don't think this is accurate, in my case at least. I didn't go in to it with any expectations and amd just taking in the story as it progresses without trying to analyze what might come such as in ep 61 where yabuki loses by tko. I didn't think joe would win or lose before watching it. Maybe I'm filtered because while i see what >>284964098 and >>284964208 are talking about it doesn't make me change my thoughts on the show overall. I really do wonder if it's just the sport aspect for me because those themes are usually quite good. I see them in the story and understand it's a part of his character and how much his coach believes in the dream and sets his hopes in joe but the whole thing just falls flat for me despite similar themes not set around sport aspects are usually my favorite.
>>284963784it's because Joe is based. just seep in his basedness
Because it's good drama and Joe is a well written character.Don't listen to this retard >>284964305S2 is where it goes downhill.
>>284965616The only blemish I can think of later on is the 2 IQ monkey boy and he's in both iirc.
>>284963784People pretend to have watched/read it
I honestly didn't like the anime and dropped it after episode 25 (the recap episode). I then read the manga and liked it way more.
>>284963784What Joe does remarkably is to show psychological suffering. Check again the early scenes where he throws his coach down a flight of stairs, or after Rikishi's death, when he sees a child toy that stops working and instantly gets PTSD.It is not really a sport show, and if anything, it portrays fighting sports just as stupidly as Baki. But that wasn't its forte, as I said. Moreover, the MC's archetype of a young man in perpetual and physical clash against his surroundings, is something lost to time. It's like watching a period drama with nobles wearing victorian clothes, that's behaviour that simply isn't portrayed any more in culture. They would shoot it down as toxic masculinity, if anything.
>>284965693They changed Joe's whistle and ruined the entire S2 by doing so.The parts of the story that overlap are objectively better in S1.
>>284965616said before and will say it again, watch AnJ1 to episode 50 and then switch to AnJ2the joining the circus part is pure filler even you can feel it without knowing it
>>284965934both true but I wouldn't go as far as to call it ruined. It's still Joe.
the lesson to be learnt is that marrying your childhood sweetheart and getting a stable job is the way to go even though noriko probably never got joe out of her heart
>>284964208Midwits always project the same concepts
>>284966165Are you retarded? That's exactly what Joe is about.
>>284965934>Got rid of the whistle Did they also get rid of the happy flute inst? The flute and the VA's falsetto of 'noriko-chan' as he bikes around is engraved in my mind
>>284966165Those are big topics on Joe though which end up leading him to his death when he could had a better life by just giving up boxing.
>>284966596>better life by just giving upIf you're a man, there is no such thing.
Have you found it yet /a/non? Whatever it is in this life that makes you feel like burning
>>284964451This is the kind of level-headed self-examination we don't get enough of. Good thread everyone.
>>284967739This is exactly the kind of thought that you aren't suppose to have anon, the kind of masculinity that leads you to your death isn't worth having.
>>284969851Or is it? Joe achieved the kind of excellence, fame, and satisfaction that most of us will never.
>>284970235What good is any of that when you're dead?
>>284969851Highly disagree. It's better to die doing what you love than to live with the nagging feeling that you could have gone further if you hadn't given up.
>>284970395We're all going to die. Joe achieved something before he did. Putting your ideals above your own life is a staple of both fiction and reality.
>>284970235>excellence, fameunc gonna kill himself so people think he's cool lol>satisfactionFor 5 minutes, then he died. The rest of his life he spend unsatisfied.Healthy people can be happy in life even if they don't become number 1. Joe was broken, that was the point. Unique and worthy of respect but broken.>>284970618What exactly did he achieve though? He killed and crippled a bunch of people, left his friends and loved ones behind low key traumatizing them.If Joe wanted to "do" or "achieve" something he could have just as well stuck around to take care of the children.Joe just did what he wanted to do and it was incredibly damaging all things considered. But the point of the story isn't what's right or wrong. Joe did what his instinct told him to do, no point in judging that.
>>284970618No, that's just empty romanticism for human failures who can't comprehend being able to achieve something AND not dying in the process.Fetishizing martyrdom is deeply morbid behaviour, doubly so when it's for pure egotistical reasons, even more so when it's something fueled by underlying despair and suicidal tendencies rather than actual ambition towards something constructive and creating some good legacy for those who come after.Nothing about Joe's death was noble, Joe is not meant to be a role model, the entire manga is a cautionary tale about the evils of its time and how they scar and bring people to the brink, Joe did not achieve anything because he was so twisted he could see nothing outside of boxing and he didn't see any future for himself either which is why he chooses to die on the ring doing the only thing he could understand.It wasn't an act of desperate heroism like Musashi's death in Getter, he wasn't trying to achieve some legendary feat, he just didn't want to keep on living and nothing about this is admirable or desirable.Joe was just a highly damaged human being running on fumes, he hurt himself and everyone around him because of the shitty life he found himself in and rather than trying to find some way around it he just went full retard because he was THAT damaged, Joe's death is tragic precisely because he couldn't achieve anything of worth in his life and died like a dog.Joe didn't have any ideals either, he was just a random fucking bum in post WW2 Japan who was good at punching people, punching people was all he knew and all he had so he went with it to the bitter end without acknowledging any of the other choices he had, he was a selfish, damaged bastard who died a pointless death after living a worthless life and he left nothing but pain behind.
>>284971275So what, life has to be measured in how "constructive" you are according to society's values? Joe chose the way he wanted to live and did his utmost to pursue it. That drive in itself is a beautiful thing. You can only fault him for the pain he put on his loved ones in the process.
Joe died at a world title fight and the champion went away in a nervous breakdown and prematurely aged 20 years. He must have changed the sport forever.
>>284971275If you look at life with such a loser's mindset, then every life must be worthless.
>>284971551There's no objective measure to life's worth other than maybe how happy you were through it all, and Joe was factually not happy for 99% of his life.Joe was a terminally depressed man driven to suicide and nothing about this is beautiful, the very fact that his entire life amounted to being punched to death and punching others to death when he could live his life longer in healthier, more self respecting ways with people who loved him but deliberately chose not to due to his blind obsession is the entire cornerstone of the drama, Joe was a fundamentally broken person, he was blind to all the other possibilities he had and too stubborn to change his ways despite having the chance to lead a happier existence.He chose to anhero himself instead, without achieving anything but a scenic death on the most important match in his whole life, I have no idea how you could find any of this beautiful or desirable, nevermind the fact that he fucking lost.Having strong convictions is only admirable if they lead to something beneficial and tangible for you or somebody else, drive in itself is neither ugly nor beautiful, it's the results and aims of that drive that matter.A meth addict also has incredibly strong drive to fuel their addiction, many even kill others people due to that drive but nobody would argue that's beautiful, and at the end of the day Joe was nothing more than an broken addict who killed himself over his addiction and deeply hurt the people who loved him many, many times.>>284972229>Not wanting to waste your life being a bum, dying on the ring AND losing a world title because you're a bum is a loser's mindsetYou need instrospection on top of literacy.
>>284972281You need a testosterone replacement therapy.
>>284972381I'm hairier than you'll ever be
>>284972281You say there's no objective measure and then try to judge by how "healthy" or tangible it is. Even with happiness, that's not very defined and changes from person to person. Joe knew what made him the closest to being fulfilled which is just as valid as going for daily comforts and a lot better than trying to seek instant gratification like your meth example.
I think life is going to be miserable for me no matter which path I take so I'll settle down for whatever it's easier.
>>284971275Can see what you meanJoe's lifestyle wasn't something to emulate, but it was all he had. He had no family, friends, no future, nothing before he meet Rikiishi and boxing, the scene of Joe running at the beach of the jailplace define it too well, he finally found a purposeStill no matter how good or noble his actions became over time, he still lived the life of a broken man. Following his passion, even if that costed him friends, rivals, but he keep walking his path, he walked more than any one else.A man does not need a greater purpose than himself to live his life to the fullest.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kqd1Bbm9jB0
>>284971275People do love the idea that Joe died achieving something great, but the manga really makes it clear how ghoulish this all is. Dezaki adds a fair bit of romanticism (as is his flair), but the message is still the same.Joe in the manga is a ghoul by the end. He's constantly shown in non-boxing scenes with grim or a face cast in shadows, he starts looking like Kim, and everyone he fights either ends up broken or already is broken.The final sections of the series include>his best friend (in the ring) getting brain damage>being unable to relate to his other best friend getting married and moving on with his life>rejecting the woman who loved him>dragging Jose down to his levelLooking at it plainly like that, Joe's story is very tragic, it's a story where the last quarter is mired in small and large personal failures.
>>284972549Of course I have to try to judge, all of us do, I had to especially since YOU brought that up in the first place.>Joe knew what made him the closest to being fulfilled which is just as valid as going for daily comforts and a lot better than trying to seek instant gratification like your meth example.But all Joe's ever had was literally the instant gratification of punching people on the ring, Joe did not even exist outside of the ring.He even literally spells it out for the audience and I have no idea how you can miss it especially since>>284971551 was already posted in this thread, Joe was a literal junkie and his own personal meth was boxing.Which is again, nothing noble or anything that should be seeing as something to emulate, the empty machismo moralism of>Well at least he died doing what he loved so you can say he lived his life the best he couldis nothing but cope from people who also wouldn't have a smidgeon of the conviction (read: despair) he had to pull off the same feat.Joe's life was a full-on tragedy and I blame Dezaki being too good at his job and warping the actual themes of the manga/show through his own romantic lens, but even if you never read the much more raw manga version you should have the critical thinking necessary to go beyond the surface level romanticism of Dezaki's aesthetics.
>>284973674I think you aren't smart enough to realize that the alternative was never good.
>>284972549No? It's say a lot of times that boxing doesn't really makes joe happy and that he doesn't find it gratifying, he only does it because he doesn't know how to do anything else and because he is chasing the understanding that he had when fighting Rikiishi and that is why he focus so much on Roberto and in Mendoza.The only momento when Joe was truly happy was when he forgot about boxing.
>>284973805No, the alternative WAS good, but Joe became simply too broken to even consider it.That's the fucking point of the entire manga and Joe's character, holy shit, how many times do I need to repeat this, Joe was a broken shell of a man.Read the fucking manga.
>>284973902Salaryman cope.
>>284973674>the instant gratification of punching people on the ringIf you think that's what he's literally talking about when he talks about burning to ash, it flew over your head. Toward the end of the first anime, Joe brings up an analogy of climbing up the tallest mountains. The point for him is overcoming the greatest, most impossible challenge. Otherwise, he would've been satisfied as the same streetfighting bum he was at the beginning.>>284973825>and because he is chasing the understanding that he had when fighting Rikiishi and that is why he focus so much on Roberto and in Mendoza.That's what I mean by fulfillment.
>the key to happiness is being content with mediocrity, because that's what author-kun said
>>284974143>The key to happiness is dying a dog's death chasing highs that do nothing but hurt you and everyone around youWhy aren't you killing yourself fighting against unsurmountable odds then?Joe lost btw
>>284974251Because my passion isn't getting punched on the head by people.
>>284974375You don't need that kind of passion to kill yourself if you truly believe that's how you achieve greatness.Tezuka for instance did it by simply drawing too hard, and he inspired an entire industry to do the same, so what are you waiting for?
>>284974021>The point for him is overcoming the greatest, most impossible challenge.Anon Joe cared about overcoming that mountain because that mountain was Rikiishi, he deep doesn't care about boxing or being the best, he even becomes a street fighter again after Rikiishi's dead because what he really wanted was the connection that he had with Rikiishi, that is why he only comes back after they show him that Roberto could be another Rikiishi.>>284974143It's not that happiness is in mediocrity, it's about how what he wants is not in what he is doing. Joe's happiness was never on boxing but that was the only thing that he understood, so he did it until he die
>>284974529But I'm already following my passion which has brought many positive things into my life, while at the same time taking me away from others. That's just how life is. Killing myself won't change anything in my case.
>>284974850And how did Joe killing himself changed anything?
>>284973958You can laugh but Nishi got his happy ending.>>284974143>I can't be happy unless I'm number 1Sad Americans can never understand Japan it seems.Maybe one day you will grow up and realize.
>>284974961He would have to quit boxing.
You suppose to read Joe. Not watch it.
>>284975012Someday you will grow up and realize that a bunch of japanese people live unhappy and miserable lives, which is why they idealize things like highschool and escapist fantasies. I'm not American btw.
>>284975024How is he being dead equals him not quiting boxing? last time I check the dead don't play boxing at any level
>>284971275Joe took it to the extrema but that was to show how broken of a person he was. We can respect and even admire Joe for the things he achieved but we can also realize he was a mentally disturbed person that ended up in a early grave.
>>284975203Now pull up stats from other countries.
>>284975251>How is he being dead equals him not quiting boxing?He didn't quit. That's why he died.
What makes you happy, anon?
>>284974532And the reason Joe cared about Rikiishi is because of how much of an idealized guy he was compared to him. That doesn't contradict what I'm saying.
.
>>284975509The virgin Takamori vs the Chad Itagaki
>>284969851>This is exactly the kind of thought that you aren't suppose to have anonWhy do you say that? Yes his life is tragic, but all life is tragic in some way or another. The main difference between him and geriatrics who succumb to age in a retirement home is that he chose the terms he went out on.You could argue that his death was "pointless" in the sense he did it out of completely selfish intentions; he was particularly suicidal after Rikishi's death, and inadvertently giving Carlos brain damage did not help matters either. At the same time though, he was a positive influence on many people's lives and gave them hope for the future. A new tomorrow. Tomorrow's Joe.
>>284975425I would say that it does contradict what you sat when Joe was pretty satisfied and happy when he lost to Rikiishi, he didn't show a lot of care about surpassing his impossible challenge and going to the next thing, he was happy being at the same level as Rikiishi in my opinion
>>284975251He's boxing Rikishi right now in the night sky u materialist.
>>284975680He did all he could so that makes sense in that moment. It's not like he had much time to digest it either before Rikiishi croaked.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qz_6-2Xt9N8His only mistake was dying
>>284965616Joe's manga is more remembered than its anime, for what it's worth. Not that parts of the anime adaptation aren't individually famous but overall it holds true. The back half of the manga is better, the original anime is better directed and drawn than 2. Comes down to what matters more to you the viewer. For my part I agree with you than Joe 1 is a much better show but I also get why people who are less "visual medium" than I am would like 2 more.
>>284975567>is that he chose the terms he went out on.But that is the thing anon, that is what I think is the tragedy of Joe, he didn't choose the terms in which he when out because he didn't choose anything, he just did what he always did because he doesn't know what else to do, he found something special with his fight with Rikiishi, so after Rikiishi dies he chases after people that could recreate that something special doing the same things that he did until he dies.
>>284976253I'll consider starving yourself to dead instead of moving weigh class to fight a moron a mistake
>>284976699Joe's tale is negative only if you disagree with amor fati. It all comes down to perspective.
>>284976436Joe 1 is by far one the greatest series ever made. Meanwhile the manga, while legendary, has more competition. The work of Tezuka, Ishinomori and the gekiga legends never got an anime series this good.
The anime adaptation is seriously horrible. Joe 2 is great though, and I can't believe people actually prefer one.Anyway, drop it and pick up the manga. It's great.
>>284975012>You can laugh but Nishi got his happy ending.Nishi's a second choice and his wife will forever be pining and thinking over a dead man who was also once Nishi's best friend.His life is bound to become utterly miserable sooner or later.
>>284979957Life is nothing but compromise, really. Nishi could very as well be a pillar of the community and endlessly gratified through that as well.
>>284979957I second this. Nishi got the short end of the stick.
>>284979957You're a clown if you think the girl will waste a thought about Joe in the years to come.Normal people don't obsess the way Joe does over Rikishi. They are gonna move on have a bunch of kinds life a normal life. Once a year they'll visit Joe's grave and get sad over a guy she liked as a dumb teenager.>>284980565I don't see it. Joe died as a virgin, Nishi has decades of happiness with his new family and friends ahead of him.
>>284982313>Joe died as a virgin, Nishi has decades of happiness with his new family and friends ahead of himThat's like your projection, mate.
>>284982393You're either delusional or a troll if you think Nishi didn't get a happy ending.
>>284982463Calm down, Nishi. It's just another ending. Millions of people marry and form a family, yet end up being miserable.
>>284971275It's heroic; you wouldn't get it because you are not a real man (no honour)>>284965608He really wasMakes me want to hijack an airplane and defect to North Korea
>>284965730well dezaki was a hack, so that checks out.
>>284983191Chiba praised him a lot. Watch their interview together.
>>284983041>It's heroicwhy don't you anhero yourself then
>>284963784After world war 2 there was a conscious movement encouraged by the USA occupational force to defang Japanese martial arts away from a focus on combat practicality and move towards the emphasis on character building that was already present from people like Funakoshi, but definitely taking center stage in post world war Japanese culture. Ashita no Joe represents an earlier conception of masculinity that resonated with many people culturally and despite being about western boxing was a closer approximation of what it meant to be a warrior in the spirit of budo etc. Many Japanese combat sports athletes even outside of boxing in mma or kickboxing cite Joe as an inspiration and Japanese fans often love people who show guts and spirit even when they lose like Sakuraba in pride.
>>284983191It always makes me laugh when people call legendary artists (in any field) "hacks." Keep doing your thing, anon.
>>284983977It crearly makes you seethe
>>284983041>Makes me want to hijack an airplane and defect to North Korea
>>284984007It really doesn't, it just means you're passionate and arrogant. Even your reply just now has the same tone. You think whatever you've got to say is so important that other people will react strongly to it. I'm a lot less invested when it comes to the classics, that's all.
>>284971275Youre missing the point trying to think what Joe achieved in the grand scheme of things or what he did for society and other people, because these things are irrelevant to him.The point is that Joe was a guy that was meaninglessly wandering through life until he found a passion and purpose in boxing, in climbing higher up the world of boxing to fight stronger and stronger people. He fundamentally still remains a greedy and violent person but boxing is the only way for him to channel these vices into something purposeful. The series already makes the point that although he is capable of finding friends, family, and even a lover, he only trusts himself to be a person that ultimately can only live for himself, and thats why he pursues his passion to the point of becoming self destructive.Instead of sucking up to the society that abandoned and scorned him as a drifter and even after getting the chance to join it as an upstanding citizen Joe instead chooses to pursue a self-determined and thus greater purpose, like Rikiishi. Even though he didnt "contribute" to society, even though he didnt live long or get rich or gain status he dies satisfied because the true value in living lies in accomplishing in what you yourself believe to be meaningful rather than what other people try to impose on you.
>>284984339tl:dr; you agree that he's not supposed to be a role model and he's a broken man
>>284984058Nice ted talk but I'm not the same anon you were originally replying to.
