I am glad that opinion on this has shifted so much over the year and now that people are constantly shitting on it. Schadenfreude for all those times that Zerocucks would proudly claim that zero is the best fate.
No, pretty sure people still it the best. Fate itself is just considered dogshit
>>285136603Not really these days. There's a lot of pushback against those who consider it the best.
>>285136561Do you really waste space in your brain on this?
>>285136746>>285136561It's still universally beloved, just not sucked of as hard as before because unlike the time it came out when we only had the Deen anime to compare it against now we also have good UBW and HF adaptations.
>>285136746>There's a lot of pushback From fatesnfags? lol.
>>285136561LolLmao even
>>285136746Only by VN purists. People who aren't suckered in to the fate deepweb don't have that autism and find Zero the most comprehensive watch. And in the cases of "primaries", the pushback has been there from the start. You need to get out of that bubble, bro. Zero is still widely liked. It's the IP as a whole that has taken a hit.Funnily enough, I think SF will resonate decently well with normie fanbases
>>285136847Fakeout
>>285136561Zero is the most juvenile Fate entry. Makes sense that people would reconsider after growing up.
>>285137014the most "juvenile" element of Zero is an add-on from FSN
>>285136886Kek no. I saw this getting shat on in r/anime threads. The series has definitely lost its luster.
Fate was good for one thing...Chloe.
>>285137278Go the fuck back
>>285136561I don't care. I'll still watch Strange Fake nada I will enjoy it.
>>285137314begone, prillyafag
>>285137360>>285137360>Focus is on the king of jobbersShan't be watching.
>>285137278Listening to Redditfag is one of the worst things you could do
>>285137014This. As a 33 year old, I now prefer Shirou's unrealistic but admirable goals and worldview over Kerry's who in hindsight comes off as more immature than early series Shirou.
No opinion changed, people just grew up and realized fate is for virgin losers
>>285137996Shirou's goals aren't admirable. He has something that he loves, and wants to do it even if it's impossible. But attempting it, knowingly, includes throwing away the people that matter to him and ignoring their pain. As an adult, I find that behaviour immature and narrow-minded. What I approve of Shirou is his grit and perseverance, which is absolutely needed in the world, but his inflexibility is damning. Fortunately, HF exists as another side to him. So overall, he's definitely much better than Kerry, who just never grew up.But anyone who thinks that hurts FZ's narrative did not watch/read FZ. Kerry being a stunted man is the point. He never got over his PTSD
>>285136561>I am glad that opinion on this has shifted so much over the year and now that people are constantly shitting on it.its literally only from fate fans lol. The rest normal people think that Zero is better and why anime onlys get recommended to start there for a reason. UBW by ufotable can't stand on its own without fate zero
>>285136904slop
>>285136561Fate Zero is a bit overrated but so is the Fate franchise as a whole.
>>285137278go back
>>285138264It's incredibly selfish to demand that someone live the way you want them to just so YOU can be happy. As a human being, Shirou has the right to decide his way of life and future.
>>285137996>>285138264HF, CCC and FGO have the same message>what do Sakura's servants Medusa and Angra Mainyu have in common? Being innocents who were demonized and wrongly persecuted by the ones around them>Killing Dark Saber means growing up>MC convince Nurse Sakura to go with him in the real world.>He get his real body back and Sakura, symbolic of having a "Yamato Nadeshiko" type, the "idealised Japanese woman." is next to him for whatever reason>Say goodbye to your servant, symbolic of letting go to Otaku trends and becoming a real adult>accept boring world, move on and become a salary man so you can be happy>get nympho wife so you can improve Japanese birthrate>Stop being a filthy otaku that uses media for escapism >Nintendo? Sega? PS2? Grow up, otaku>it's time for you to grow up, get a job and then a big titty wife and stop with all this escapism UBW nonsense>just get a big titty gf and get a job. it's that easy>Shirou was finally taking his own selfish needs seriously, which is what any healthy human being needs >HF final ending where literally the theme of the story actually comes together, about how the grail war was mistaken from the start and they needed to just let go of it, with Ilya tying together her character arc from the entire game about also putting her hatred aside and making peace with her family, when the other ending doesn't address shit and leaves you on a shitty note>the Yen is now almost as weak as the Turkish LiraNasu kinda hates Otaku and wants them to stop watching anime and live their lives, every writer that likes Nasu ends up copying his ideals. Which results in "Escapism isn't healthy, you should work a menial job and shut the fuck up, you aren't a hero, being a salaryman is the real heroism buddy".Kiritsugu was trying to tell Shirou that the real Seigi no Mikata are working Japanese salarymen
Shirou becoming a hero makes the world a little more interesting, so I'd say that's always the better outcome.
>>285136561the novels and actual story were never particularly liked by TM fans. It has cool twists and concepts but Urobuchi's characters are very one note which means Saber feels bastardized compared to actual Nasu shit. current TM would not let anyone but Nasu even write a story like thisthe adaptation is excellent though
>>285141858He certainly does, and he should also be aware that his way of life is harmful to those who cared about him. That's equally selfish. I won't tell him how he should live, but he must be aware that he is causing pain.
>>285142004>which means Saber feels bastardizedI've never agreeds with this.I've always felt this is propaganda by FSN fans who hate how she was treated, but Saber is consistent to me. She hates to lose. She has hangups over her rule. And she does value a knight's honor. She will also kill children if they are masters (Rin and Waver)
>>285142068>lets lancer fuck off on a pinky promise he won't kill her master and ruin everything she's fighting forIt was stupid, her character was fucked. The butcher can talk all he wants about how much he loves saber, but to anyone else it looks like Zero's only purpose was a hammer to bash her character over and over.
>>285137014>>285141901>be shonen vn known for having a highschooler date king arthur and "you dodged my undodgeable blow">yup it's the other slop that's juvenile >actually fate is very deep and mm a subversive deconstruction yup whatamireading.jpg
>>285142044Shirou is someone who's keenly aware of the pain of others. To stifle that element of himself is to live in pain until the day he dies. In Heaven's Feel, that's the compromise he chooses to make.No matter what, someone will always be in pain. Every decision we make comes at the sacrifice of something. You jist subscribe to the notion that the pain of friends and family is more important than the pain of strangers. But in the grand scheme of things, one person's pain isn't worth mpre or less than that of another. From an objective point of view, all pain is equal. Based on this view, YOUR argument is the selfish one. You don't have the right to decide whose pain is worth more. You're just forcing your self-righteous views on thers, and condemning them for not following the way of life you consider just.
>>285136561>I am glad that opinion on this has shifted so much over the year and now that people are constantly shitting on it.Where are you seeing this?
>>285142241OP's literally, unironically a redditor
>>285142004>>285142068My issue is that F/SN Saber feels like a bunch of different personalities smashed together to fit different situations, and I struggle to call it the perfect marriage of Exemplary chivalrous knight and idealistic martyr, a pragmatic ruthless terminator, and a blushing maiden.Zero Saber might not paint a flattering picture with all the flaws it displays, specially so for a Saber fanatic who fully buys into the setting's narrative that she's actually unironically perfect, but god dammit, at least it picked a lane.
>>285136561it still is the best Fate
>>285142237>Shirou is someone who's keenly aware of the pain of others.Why didn't Shirou just have boundaries and not feel like he has to take responsibility for other people's problems?
>>285142291Because his brain's broken. The fire drove him insane and this is how his madness manifests. He can ignore his compulsions and pretend that they're not there, but they will always exist.
>>285142291>Why didn't Shirou just have boundaries and not feel like he has to take responsibility for other people's problems?that's literally the point of the vn.
Was Archer wrong?
>>285136561Nope, it's still the best Fate media to date. Your gaslighting won't change that fact.
It's weird how people keep missing that Shirou has LITERAL brain damage.
>>285142044The problem with empathy is that there are many more people who happily take advantage of others peoples empathy. NGOs, various religious organizations and other volunteer work would not exist if people were as selfish as you proclaim they are.Shirou has too much empathy, integrity and self accountability to dehumanize others. Empathy and letting people take advantage of you are not the same thing, and that is where Shirou has gone tragically wrong.Shirou saved Shinji's life, stood up against Zouken for him.And how does the little bitch repay him? By taking advantage of Shirou's kindness, walking all over him like a doormat and treats Sakura very poorly and abuses her on a daily basis.Here's the thing about empathy: when you're too empathetic, people will take advantage of you, they'll cry crocodile tears while they beg you to gradually destroy your own life inch, by inch
>>285142486Shirou's not that easy to take advantage of. He has high tolerance, that's all. Crocodile tears don't work on him, and THAT'S why Archer got betrayed. Someone close to him got spooked by his relentless pursuit of justice and realized he might be on the chopping block someday. So he sold Archer out and got him executed.
>>285136561It's still my personal favorite Fate thing.
>>285142237Nah. My argument is that he be aware of what he does and make his choices. His choices will hurt his loved ones because he finds him dream beautiful. That makes him selfish. My argument can't be selfish, when I'm not forcing him to act in any particular way, dingus. And yes, I can definitely berate him, because it's selfish. To think of yourself and ideals and prioritize them over others is selfish by default
>>285142436The UBW anime is the only adaptation that actually touches on it accurately, and people call that shit because it lacks the inner monologues telling it to you straight out and instead respects the viewer's attention span to deliver the information as visuals.
>>285142213Yeah, Saber's a knight. As a reminder, Diarmuid had previously gone through lengths to meet her chivalry. Is it placing an amount of trust in another knight? Sure, but that's the era they lived in. Diarmuid was 100% trustworthy because he ddin't kill Kiritsugu. That's not bastardizing. Saber accepted Kojiro's chivalry in FSN and was going to provide her true name in turn. When she found out Caster killed her master, Saber went to kill her on the spot. Saber has always had impractical ideals. She just never had a fellow knight in FSN so nobody to bring that side out of her. Conditions and circumstances change responses. That is the whole fucking point of FSN so it's ironic that it gets ignored for Zero. That's not character assassination.
>>285141901The crazy thing is he's never really reassessed from this message. He's been pushing it for over 20 years. The ending of FHA was literally, "it's time to say goodbye to these characters, and go live a real life." Meanwhile the 70th Fate show is airing RIGHT NOW, in 2026. He pursued his dream of making visuals novels. Every single one has been some level of success, with the potential exception of Mahoyo (still getting a high budget movie, though!). Bet on Tsukihime becoming a fighting game? It turned into its own franchise. Dabbled in gacha? Turned Fate into a literal multi-billion dollar franchise.The guy lives Fate/UBW. He tells YOU to be HF.
>>285142781All it takes is a command seal from Kayneth, a known asshole magus, and lancer would have gutted Kiritsugu through his bitchass tears. It was 100% bastardizing, Kiritsugu had every reason to handle (urobutcher's) saber with a 10 ft pole in all of their interactions after that.
>>285143089>All it takes is a command seal from KaynethLikewise, all it takes is a command seal from Kiritsugu to summon Saber there. Reminder that Kayneth already wasted a CS earlier and Diarmuid resisted it. CS are the trump cards of the war. Wasting another one so early against a single master is a stupid idea.>Kiritsugu He distanced himself from Saber from the beginning so no idea why this makes any sense.
>>285143089The problem was how he did it. The way he went about it was needlessly cruel. Kiritsugu pretends to be someone who prioritizes pragmatism, but he went out of his way to cause Kayneth as much pain as possible.
The whole "I will accept your honobru duel" shit that Saber does with Kojirou and Dairmuid has always been retarded, She runs around with an invisible sword for fuck sake & one of the first things we ever see her do is jump over a wall and try to go to town on Archer without asking questions.The Kojirou case is 100% Nasu's Japanese autism making him write a samurai duel, just because the guy is a (Fake) Samurai named after a Samurai known for a duel.I'd say maybe 75% of Saber's writing in F/SN actually tries to build an interesting take on her character that isn't just generic knight, despite being based on the figure that was the blueprint for generic knight. The last 25% is pure schizo writing to justify her making braindead decisions or getting Worfed.
>>285143638Code of chivalry apparently dictates that she answer with her own name if someone gives theirs but that's it. She was totally gonna Excalibur his ass before Shirou stopped her.
>>285143638>saber arrives at caster protected gate>has to fight servant to proceed>fights servant>HURRRR WHY DOES SABER FIGHT THE SERVANTretard
>>285136561zero was the first one I watched. I watched the rest after that and the only one that approached being as good was prillya
>>285143722Her opponent is literally only able to exist on a single path & her master is currently in an unknown state captured inside, Assassin is the perfect target for blasting & moving on.
>>285143797If she uses Excalibur, she won't have enough energy to fight Caster. For much of the war, she was only good for one shot because Shirou couldn't supply her with energy.
>>285143916Saber is highly resistant to magic & Caster is a joke without the plot bending over backwards to allow her to use Rule Breaker on people.
>>285144061Kuzuki was there too and using Excalibur in the Fate route caused her to faint. Can't save anyone if you're unconscious.
>>285143797>only able to exist on a single pathcaster's barrier funnels Heroic Spirits onto the temple stairs>her master is currently in an unknown state captured insideher Excalibur is an Anti-Fortress NP. when she fights Rider on the rooftop she says she doesn't have to worry about the collateral damage she does with it. you seriously think she can just blast towards the temple full of monks and shirou?>blasting and moving onshe can't "blast and move on" she would be a mana-drained sitting duck for the servants watching this shit go down>>285144061> a joke without the plot bending over backwardsoh so now the plot matters?retard
>>285136561It’s the second best fate, nothing to be ashamed of.
Needs more B.B.
>>285143722The issue isn't the fight, it's Saber dropping everything even her actual name because etiquette demands it. It's the contradiction of being both a symbol of chivalry and a ruthless pragmatist willing to commit heinous acts for the greater good. Either she's the shining example of a knight and thus her actions are bound to the ideals of chivalry, or she isn't. Fate wants to have it both, to Saber's detriment.
>>285144462>Fate wants to have it both, to Saber's detriment.fate is ABOUT the exploration of this idea, in both emiya/archer and saber. holy fvark there are some retards who really just like the moving pictures and then make shit up afterwards
Anyone else remember that true assassin was able to endure Saber's magical wind blast because he lived somewhere windy thus getting her into a trap with the Shadow? Or am I misremembering the reasoning for that nonsense?
>>285144498That would make sense if it meant that Saber's pragmatism made her a bad knight or that her chivalry impeded her from acting optimally, but the franchise is very insistent on her being utterly perfect and doing everything perfectly right. The idea works for Emiya, because the contradiction fucked him over and the story makes no excuses for his way of life leading to tragedy and failure as a result- For Saber, however? She gets to have her cake and eat it too, and any negative consequences of her way of life are the explicitly the result of external factors and people who just couldn't handle how perfect she was.Just look at Zero. It's like the one work in the franchise that dares to paint Saber's traits as flaws that lead to bad decisions, and people fucking despise it for it, with the rest of the franchise tripling down on perfectoria. You can say that the idea is explored, sure, but it rings hollow when the answer you give is "yeah so she could be both of these mutually exclusive things no problemo, and it would have worked forever, if not for the universe itself being against her".
>>285144462>Fate wants to have it both, to Saber's detriment.Bro come on that's literally the point of the VN.
>>285136561Gachacuck stirring shit up I see.How painfully obvious.
>>285144840The whole idea is that Saber was the perfect fit for the role. It's that star trek quote "It's possible to commit no mistakes and still lose, that's not weakness, that's life."Saber chose to abandon her own self-fulfilment for her potential talent as a King, pulled it off, but suffered tragic consequence not of her own volition or fault (unless you count being flawless as a fault).F/SN delves into her human side rather than her history, where she repeatedly makes mistakes in the story from recklessness to indecision like the part on the bridge.Saber was a perfect King, not a perfect person, because she neglected her humanity.
>>285142436Yes. The heroines are there to give Shirou something more important to him than the goal of being a superhero, preventing him from going off the deep end and becoming the world's janny/Kerry 2.0
>>285144962Do you think Shirou would have turned out more stable if Kiritsugu made him obsessed with getting his dick wet instead of saving the world?
>>285143234we're talking about the man who would rather shoot down a plane than have it attempt an emergency landing.
>>285144802He has the Protection from Wind skills. Remember that Heroic Spirits are spawned not just from factual history, but from fantastic tales and myths about them, so their abilities are many times exaggerated or amplified from their living incarnations.
>>285145041>than have it attempt an emergency landing.And risk innocents if any of the zombies survived? Kiritsugu made the right choice there. It was the only choice.
>>285145041If even one zombie bee made it out of that plane it would fuck up an entire city at the minimum. He made the right call.
>>285145070>>285145101I should have known you retards didn't know planes can do emergency landings into the sea as well. No innocents or cities anywhere nearby when you're surrounded by miles and miles of water. Kiritsugu had a boat and the pilot's room had windows.
>>285145062It very much just feels like a bullshit slippery slop/excuse that when taken to it's logical extreme makes every Tibetan or Mongol hero the bane of Wind based Servants, or similar bullshit regarding resistances multitudes of Servants could/should have but don't because the writer didn't think of a way/reason to include it.
>>285145041>>285145070The big question here is them not having any way for Natalia to escape the plane so Kiritsugu could blow it up without remorse. I get that they're not supposed to be omnipotent or anything close, but surely if you're going into a plane to kill a fucking vampire mid flight, I'd assume you'll have an exit strategy prepared, in case the dead apostle sniffs you out and goes ballistic.Not even flight needed, just a shitty magical parachute would do the trick
>>285145316>Not even flight needed, just a shitty magical parachute would do the trickDoesn't Tokiomi literally do a feather-fall off of Gilgamesh's ship in order to speak with Kariya, like 4 episodes prior? (He might have done actual magical flight, but I'm pretty sure he just slowed his fall all elegant like from what I remember.)
>>285141901>Nasu kinda hates Otaku and wants them to stop watching animebut also keep giving him money through a predatory gacha game, okay.
>>285143703She cannot fire Excalibur in that temple gate, so no. She had no chance of winning that fight in her state and others could be listening. It was an impractical decision
>>285144840>if it meant that Saber's pragmatism made her a bad knight or that her chivalry impeded her from acting optimallyshe is good at being a knight, yes. she is an autistic workhorse. she was blind to scheming in the Round Table (this is Arthurian legend btw) and the scabbard got stolen and she was overthrown by Morgan and her kingdom fell apart. everything was decided by dancing to the tune of fighting as king forever and that all fell apart when reality kicked in. she did her best which was NOT GOOD ENOUGH.>some shit you made up about emiyaemiya didn't regret his life until he was forced to kill as the price to save people. you keep thinking that "bad stuff happens to you = you fucked up, good stuff happens to you = you're an absolute legend!!!">obligatory fate zero throat creampiealright>"yeah so she could be both of these mutually exclusive things no problemo, and it would have worked forever, if not for the universe itself being against her"wow almost as if people don't exist in a vacuum, way to miss the point with that strawman
zero would be dogshit if it weren't for them
>>285137014>Zero is the most juvenile Fate entry that's FGO
>>285136561Just a reminder that Zero is a MASTERPIECE that respects the original work almost 99% in every way, including characters, themes, moral and ideological conflicts, lore, etc.Zero is an example of how prequels should be written, and the hate it receives from traumatized crybabies will never change that.It's a masterpiece on par with Stay Night.
>>285147205You'll never get through to them. Uro wrote all of F/Z just so he could inaccurately depict saber as a loser destined for punishment. Zero is the kind of story that attracts tertiaries who would never have any interest in actual fate. It's a superficial, empty narrative that fills in the gaps with pointless suffering. I am convinced that ufo chose to animate it first specifically to lure in casuals.
>>285147205>Saber’s voice in reply is heavy.>For her, it is too risky to state her true name.She cannot reveal her true name no matter what torture she receives, and she has no intention of revealing it.>But that is only for the sake of victory.She cannot disgrace the faith of the knight for such a thing.from https://fatestaynight.vnovel.org/fate/6th-day/8#page42holy smokes, a webpage hosting the VN?? now surely there is no excuse for not reading Fate/Stay Night...
>>285136561Zero is the best fate tho
>>285136904Sex with Director Olgamarie!
>>285147561your frustration is misguided, I am sharing the good word of the VN. at ease, soldier
>>285136561Urobutcher might be spotty at times, but Zero is one of his best works.There's a reason people like Kiritsugu, Waver, Kariya and Iskander.
>>285147593nigga I am quoting the book and linking a place where people can read it. not looking good...
>>285147316We love loli here, normalfag. Go back.
>>285147563Olga lives on, thanks to the Throne. All that black hole did was ensure her eternity, just like with ORT Xibalba.
>>285136561>I am glad that [headcanon]
>>285145805the main reason to fight for the protagonist of FGO is: "to survive"what do you think about it?
Urobuchi seemed to really hate wide eyed idealistic characters.
>>285147390Stop coping. Zero wasn't written for Saber. Nasu gave Urobutchi the directions and specifically told Butcher that it would be a bad end for her. So he fucking directed it that way. That did not mean she was written wrong. That did not mean Zero was shallow. You're just a shallow waifufag
>>285147852Wouldn't even say this is especially true. There's a character like that in TBF who grows and gets a happy ending. Naive people get taken advantage of, but that doesn't mean they deserve to get fucked over.Who in Zero even matches that description? Waver? I don't think so
>>285147205>>285148033Sorry, what is this supposed to prove? The mention of Saber and Kojiro proves that Saber will forego pragmatism to meet chivalry. Which your very quote says that she does. Saber struggling with giving away such crucial information does not change the fact that she would have done it. So Chivalry is very important to her, regardless of the consequences.>compare that to her bromance with DiarmuidSorry, did Saber give away any of her weaknesses in the first meeting with Diarmuid? She never explained the length of her sword or her identity. Diarmuid figured it out through facing her. Your counterargument is beyond superficial. It also goes against one very crucial detail. Diarmuid is a knight that opened up to her first, and Saber reciprocated. That's different from how anyone in FSN actually behaves. Using this, VNfags might as well argue FSN is a shitshow because characters will respond differently in different routes. No shit. That's the point of the game.
it's fake
>Whereas Zero saber would've insistedOn what basis? What in Zero would lead you to believe that Artoria would *insist* on the matter to a knight that she is meeting for the first time?>She is very friendly with Diarmuid who is figured out her identity. F/SN Saber would've made him target no.1 for murder due to that knowledgeNo basis for this either. Diarmuid figuring out her identity as a show of skill is something to find impressive, and Saber has constantly praised her opponents. Her goal is killing Diarmuid regardless to win the war. What changes here?> She would neverThat is an assumption. One you cannot draw from based on a single meeting with Kojiro.
>>285141901speedreader kun...
>>285147852>>285148069To be fair, Urobuchi became less of an edgelord in the 10 years between writing Fate/Zero and Thunderbolt Fantasy.>There's plenty of righteous people who are easily tricked because of it. You can regret being deceived, but don't you regret trying to do the right thing.
>>285148988I like both versions of his writing to be honest
>>285148653>“I cannot believe it. You have measured my sword without using any magic nor exchanging blows with me.”>“Oh, are you surprised? But this is just a street performance. As I am an unorthodox sword-user, I only improve on such techniques.”>“I see. It was your way of fighting not to meet any of my blows, but parry them. I see the term unorthodox comes from how much of a coward you are.”saber "praising" Kojirou>"Fine, then this is it. If you are unwilling to do so, I will show you my secret technique first.”>Saying so…>The swordsman with the longsword comes down next to Saber.>“What?”>To relinquish his advantage of being overhead is the same as losing for Assassin.>Assassin is certainly a skilled swordsman, but that is only with the conditions of these geographical features.>If they are to fight on the same level, it is possible for Saber to repel Assassin’s attack and slash his neck.>But Assassin would know this as well.>So why?saber "not letting Kojirou break his lance"Kojirou is the guy who opened up to Saber first btw, why didn't she reciprocate??? >Zero [...] Artoria would *insist* on the matter to a knight that she is meeting for the first time?maybe the fact that she engaged him in conversation instead of going in like she did vs Emiya, Cu, Medusa, Heracles (lol), Gilgamesh (even with Shirou next to her) in FSN?
>>285137996Shirou's speech in the basement in Fate route would 100% trigger Sakura though.
>>285142237>From an objective point of view, all pain is equal.Then he is free to switch with one of the orphans in Kirei's mana battery farm.
>>285149510nice try kotomine
FSN Saber would have agreed with Kerry's method and fought without questioning until they got the grail because she saw herself as a weapon.She also would have see her sins in letting Lancelot reach the stage that he was in FZ, but nonetheless would have put him down like a rabid dog since he did kill Gareth, Aggravain and Gaheris.
>>285149634She also would not have broken down and cried after being confronted one (1) time about her ideals. 15 days for Shirou to get>Okay I won't regret it at leastmeanwhile mr. butcher can shart out what Fate/Zerosissies consider a fair scrutiny of a lifetime of rule
seibafags getting angry at zero for shitting on saber because it takes a critical stance on the character when the rest of the franchise cynically rapes her by introducing 1000 different "secretly was a girl all along" historical figures which makes her entire dilemma ridiculous in-universe
>fate/zerobrains shifting the goalpost to waifus
Events are loosely canon, personalities are not, they acknowledged continuity issues with FSN anywayThat's why everything past FSN is vague about what happened before the current story
I read FSN before I read Zero.Zero is better.Zero doesn't demand I wade through 12 hours of of bullshit, with 20 minutes of relevance sprinkled about it like a treasure hunt no more than 2 minutes contiguous like a treasure hunt, so I can get to one really fun scene. The people who try to tell you it's all relevant, that it's all pulling together for scene setting vibes, are liars. The only relatively economic story telling is found in HF, but by the time you've gotten there you've paid with your time already in the other routes.Zero is a lot the same. It gets to cheat by piggybacking on all the time you put into reading FSN. >>285136746It's less people's issues with the writing and more how they like modern ufotable's style more. Even the UBW anime gets shit on for looking not right to people who imprinted on shit like KnY.
>>285149892you've read Hollow ataraxia and garden of avalon and say things like that?
>>285149916>anon read Zero
>>285150103I had to. You don't remember how bad the secondary bullying was around 2010? Zero > HF > the restAnd my personal morality is so utterly divorced from what Nasu and Butcher are whining about it's not even funny. But they are the best written.
>>285149142Artoria's first fight with Diarmuid has her divulging absolutely nothing to him that he didn't figure out himself. Then he had to resist a command spell because his master forced him to work with Berserker when he refused. There is already rapport built between Saber and Diarmuid by this point.> Saber sacrificed an entire village to protect Britain as a whole in the war. Oh god, not this again. This is a fucking myth. A long, on-going war that can't be solved by lone duels is not a comparable point. It's also really fucking exaggerated. Saber didn't kill her people. It was the village resources that were used to fund the army and could be recovered. This way there would be no victims. There wouldn't even be destruction to the land.>So she believed she should make sacrifices before the war to prepare the army and to defeat the enemy efficiently. She would exhaust one village to prepare the army, defeat the invaders before they could damage the land, and save ten villages.> We will win, so there will not be any victims.>>285149323>saber "praising" KojirouPic related. First words Saber ever utters in the VN are praise of Rin's abilities as a magus. Which is exactly the whole problem. You're up in arms over something as simple as banter and compliments in battle, which can be given according to a whim. That is what you take for character assassination. Ridiculous. Diarmuid appealed to Saber from the very beginning, and that earns her respect. That simple.
>>285151106>Oh god, not this again. This is a fucking myth.Nasu elaborated on it in Garden of Avalon, and it did make her look bad.
>>285151144>It was a common practice to suck up small villages, to prepare armaments and rations,in order to build up an army for the battle to defend the island.>There were many Knights who were against letting the villages dry up.>It was an extra sacrifice for the knights and a dishonorable thing to do.>There were no knights who would accept to do it, even knowing that if they did not do so, there would be way more casualties.>——————“In what world would a king sacrifice his own homeland while having barbarians as his opponents?”>It was already decided where the villagers were going to resettle, but there was no way to heal the hearts of the people whose homelands were being taken away. Many of the soldiers of country were raised in such villages.>——————“These are the measures to win tomorrow. I hope all of you can endure with me.”>In this sense, there was probably no knight who has killed so many people as she has and was hated by so many humans.THIS is what's said in Garden of Avalon. Did you read a different novel from me? If so, please cite exactly how horrible Saber was to her people. I would also like to remind you that affairs of the kingdom weren't Saber's alone. She had Agravain to advise her, and if you know anything about that man, he did everything he could to be the villain so Camelot would keep running.
>>285151176Ctrl + F for the part where she admitted that she had asked her people to keep enduring (like her) and finally realized that they were normal people and thus couldn't keep doing what she was trying to do.
Anything not Stay Night and Hollow Ataraxia is trash
>>285136561It's funny that Butcher wanted people to believe Lancelot could take on Gilgamesh and was a "counter" to him
>>285151239He did lolIn the Fate Zero event in FGO Jet did beat Gil, though not without the support of future Waver and the mc.
>>285151239Butcher thinks of powerlevels in the absolute broadest sense. He doesn't actually care much for it in any of the works he's written.
>>285151264Butcher has character pointlessly struggle against each other until one of them instakills the otherThat is literally how every fight in Zero ends
>>285136904>dies>undies immediately What was even the point? We One Piece now?
>>285151299give them your fucking money, paypiggy
>>285136561It's still better than any Stay Night route
>>285145760I think it's a nice touch that despite historically his favourite was the Illiad, he picked up the Odysee from the bookstore.
>>285151106>>285148151pic related ...after she almost kills Archer by sensing his master and then holding said master at swordpoint.I do understand characters do different things in different contexts. But this is how I see it. The Kojirou encounter happened at least twice. Here's UBW Saber>Her Master is on the other side of that mountain gate.>But the Servant in front of her is way too strange.>He reveals his true name willingly.>He does not have a stance, and his cool enmity is transparent.>She cannot figure out his power because of his transparency.>She can see his power as a Servant.>Assassin is not a strong Servant, so it should be easy to defeat him. But her instincts are telling her something different…>That she cannot beat him in a normal duel.>“I do not have any business with you. Move, Assassin.”>She suppresses the strange unease and glares at Assassin.she doesn't care to give her name. Fate Route was already in this thread; her chivalry code was invoked but it ultimately didn't matter. I think that makes it quite a flexible and not at all binding oath, and therefore quite improbable that it would actually affect her decision making in the face of defeat or victory. However, Diarmuid reveals his presence, laments he can't give out his true name, tickles her belly and then she rolls over and now the spear is holding her hostage. The improbable is now real. Again, I know that Nasu is not a god and can fuck up and I might be wrong but I think that is counter to how Saber would be characterized. respect for digging into the VN btw
>>285151299She's an unBeast so she undies
kek anti zero cucks lost
>>285136746Fate is dogshit.Zero is one of the better entires. Probably the best.
Fate Zero is still the best fate
>>285136561zero is dogshit, not canon and butcher lost to nasu. Contrarian glazers on suicide watch.
>>285136844Mostly from Altria fags, really. Most of the complaints are very minor details regarding her character that don't matter at all and no one would care about unless she is their waifu.
>>285136561>the entry that turned fate and type-moon from a comiket otaku curiosity into aniplex's biggest money maker is bad, actuallyholy historical revisionism
>>285152972fate zero took a step so fate could run
Saber treats Diarmuid as a knight because Diarmuid is a knight just like her. He aligns more closely with her morals and values. There is literally no other Servant she encountered who shared a moral code similar to hers outside of Diarmuid.Kojirou is a cunning fox and belongs to the Assassin class. One would hardly take the words of an Assassin or Caster class Servant in the same way they would take the words of a Servant who fights head-on like the other classes. Obviously, Berserker is an exception.Saber felt an obvious sense of comfort talking to Diarmuid. It’s like one geek talking to another. Kojirou was never at that level of closeness with her, nor was he looking for it. His only goal was to gain a sense of purpose through a fight to the death with a worthy opponent, nothing more and nothing less.Kojirou didn’t offer praise out of chivalry or a code, because he was fundamentally empty. Even at the end, he says he had completely misunderstood Saber. He just didn't lie to her and saber knew that. Givin' his own name its a pretty big thing for a servant. Saber was always honest about her code in zero and in SN.
>>285136561It's not that F/Z is bad, it's just that F/SN is a masterpiece, which makes Butcher's stellar work seem lesser by comparison.
>>285152998More or less my views on the subject. DIfferent strokes from different folks. Saber is quite biased against assassins and casters. Gawain shows that kind of disrespect too.
>>285151106>Artoria's first fight with Diarmuid has her divulging absolutely nothing to him that he didn't figure out himself.Nobody claimed she did. We are talking about her reaction to her id being discovered by Diamuid afterwards. Her entire bromance with him.>Saber didn't kill her people.I said "Sacrificed" you dumb ESL. That's not the same thing as killing. When she couldn't defend a village she would strip it of its resources to deny them to enemy. "Scorched earth" was a standard practice at the time. It's mentioned in Shirou's dreams in VN.And yeah, that is in direct contradiction with her unwilling end Diarmuid's curse to save innocents. Even the most charitable interpretation of her actions (simply stripping villages of resources and resettling them) makes it a direct contradiction of her action of actions towards Lancer. She calls her injury a proud war scar she carries(LMAO), one that she only wants to settle with in a fair battle while they're both facing a threat that could end up killing thousands. That's not even being chivalrous, that's being 80 IQ.This is what you zerotrannies do, pick up one moment in Fate where she was barely chivalrous with Kojiro (while ignoring her entire inner conflict over just giving him her name) and use that to justify her braindead "muh Chivalry" attitude in Zero. You take a passing remark she makes towards Rin to justify her being bffs with Diarmuid(even though she never acted that close with any enemy including Rin).
>>285153039Avenger wasn't evilSakura was evilThis is not a joke. Avenger lacks personality and a will of his own. Everything Sakura is doing is of her own desires.
>>285153127I’m going to ask you an honest question. Do you really believe that, at that point in the story, Saber wouldn’t have sacrificed those thousands of people if saving them meant decreasing her chances of winning the Holy Grail by 50%?Because basically, that is what it means for Diarmuid to destroy one of his Noble Phantasms: he is losing 50% of his chances to win the Holy Grail War.I’m certain they could have eventually defeated Caster with that same NP Diarmuid possessed which prevented regeneration. There would have been casualties, but it wouldn't have been impossible. You have to look deeper into the characters.Remember that bad ending where she betrays Shirou in the church basement, for example. Saber would prioritize obtaining the Holy Grail over many things. Unconsciously, those kinds of desires influence the way she perceives certain things.In this case, Diarmuid sacrificing his NP—and effectively half of his chances at victory—is something she wouldn’t do. In contrast with her code and her morals, her reaction is appropriate.read this >>285152998 as for what she was in good terms with Diarmuid
>>285153414>—
>>285153433Not an answer tho.
>>285153912Those are two totally different things. Like I said, it’s about her desire for the Grail vs her morals.You’re talking about killing innocents for a win and that clashes way too much with her ego. She wouldn’t do that unless she was totally corrupted by the Grail, and even then, from what I’ve seen of Saber Alter (I don't play FGO), I don't see her doing that.Having a logical sense of self-preservation isn't the same as being selfish. Saber wouldn’t sacrifice her NP or give up the Grail like that. There’s more than one bad ending that shows this.Angra Mainyu can corrupt her through the shadow because her wish for the Grail is what corrupts her. Saber has morals and a code but she also has desires. Those desires have a dark side just like any other wish and that influences how she reacts.You’re just looking at the character in a really superficial way.
>stale F/Z bait thread with copypasted posts from the archive>>285147563ThisPost Olga. Nasu knows the heart of man.
>>285137996>>285138264Shirou is generic wish fulfilment garbage. If you want that slop, even Touma in the novels does that gimmick better. Kiritsugu is one of the few protagonists I've ever seen that actually puts a fucking map on the table and strategizes. And he uses his plot armor tactically, unlike Shirou who just gets beat up by Gods and comes to school the next morning like nothing happened. Not saying Kiritsugu is some kind of amazing character but he's a breath of fresh air compared to most protags. Fate as whole is just chuuni bullshit you enjoy as a teen. Once you actually read novels, actual novels with good writing, not hentaishit, you will realize this.
>>285153039>>285152890>>285151239Fate Zero has Iskandar. That automatically makes it better than FSN.But it just does the Holy Grail War better. In FSN it's just japanese people in mostly the same area. Whiny annoying unlikable teenagers with too many boring high school scenes. In Fate Zero it's people from all over the world, the characters themselves are just more interesting and more charismatic. Even Waver the bitchboy is more charismatic than the bitchtwinks in FSN. The betrayals and relationships were just more compelling in Zero. Saber and Kerry's dynamic is not something I've seen before or done since, the MC not even giving the main heroine a chance and staying stubborn till the end. Both want justice but both were too far up their own ass and they both lose in the end. Most fiction don't have the balls to end a story like that (although it is a prequel so it's less cool than it would have been) And both had valid points, Kerry treated the battlefield as it should be, a war is a war. Saber in a suit riding a motorcycle against Alexander the Great in a chariot was just a fun cute idea. The masters and servants in Zero were so entertaining compared to any other Fate series.
>>285154465>Fate Zero has Iskandar. That automatically makes it better than FSN.Very low IQ thing to say. Not reading the rest.
i like it back when it was airing, since kiritsugu's schtick is basically>bullets vs magic
>>285154465Iskandar is cool in the first watch.But in the end I realized that he's just a dumbass.The other works wanking him to be some strong top servant is ridiculous.
>Saberfags perpetually uppity over Urobuchi showing the King of England has no clothes
>>285154824urobutcher is one of those fags who criticizes everything in the world but has no fucking idea how to fix it
Saberfag melty ITT
>>285137996You're not kidding. I find Sherou legitimately inspiring and am using the high jump allegory to turn myself into a bureaucrat, tackle corruption from within and serve the people.
>>285152998>There is literally no other Servant she encountered who shared a moral code similar to hers outside of Diarmuid.Cu Chulainn, whose fight coincidentally mirrors the Diarmuid fight. She doesn't give a fuck about the continuation of the battle in the basement though, and I don't remember her pretending to be Gae Bolged while she and Shirou retreated>Talking about classes and then making exceptionsDo Rider classes count as head-on? Saber thinks Medusa is a demon. Are the "Knight" classes honorable? Gilgamesh. "Archer" Emiya fights head on and he obviously mirrors Artoria so he should be considered as another Servant who she cut down instantly instead of yapping to first.>Saber was always honest about her code in zero and in SN.The moment Saber makes an exception in her chivalry because of her desires is when it stops being a binding or critical oath. Again, she flat out states being compelled to give her name in return - REGARDLESS OF CLASS - and then doesn't. How does this bridge Zero and SN?
>>285154921fat bitchI don't play fgo or read case files btw
I don’t think FZ was intending Iskandar to be ‘correct’, he was inspiring, but he was explicitly called a tyrant, and he didn’t refute that. He never won the actual argument of what makes a good king, he just pointed out what it did to Saber.
>>285154465>the characters themselves are just more interesting and more charismatic.They are not, don't fucking kid yourself.>Kerry is your typical 'lo and behold my guns' mc>Saber got nerfed>Iri is just a damsel>Tokiomi is a backstabber acting like a noble>Gil is also nothing special, even though he was somewhat better than his version in FSN>Kayneth is just a retard>his fiancee is a bitch>Deermud is also a dumbass>Waver is okay, but he has more common with a typical underdog mc like Shirou>Dude is fine, but got hyped way too much despite the shit he did back when he was alive>Gilles and his master are designated villains to be killed>Kirei is still himself, but it's not like he was shining in FZ>100 Hassan got killed and that's what everyone remembers>Kariya is a retard>Jet is a retard>Zouken is a designated villain to be killed in the sequel>Sakura is a damsel
>>285155090He's the one character who escapes unstained in regards to character and dies getting exactly what he wanted.
>>285155090Expanded universe makes him the worst king out of all of them. Saber's and Gil's reign had to end due to the Age of Gods ending. Iskandar just ends because it just does.
>>285155172I wouldn’t say he got what he wanted, but regardless, he still lost. The point of his character wasn’t really to break down his ideals, but to inspire Waver. Having him go out with some dignity was meant for that purpose. That doesn't mean he was correct. His answer suited himself, it wasn’t a one size fits all.
>>285155062All TITS
>>285155295>tfw FGO mc is actually strong enough to hold the earth with his arms for a few minutes
There's no thread on /v/ and nobody in /jp/ has answered as of yet, so I'll try asking here.Is there a source, like an interview or something in the text that implies the bad/dead ends are canon? From everything I can find, people are just extrapolating that they are, despite the fact some seem to actively go against Shirou's character (as opposed to, say, moving back vs moving forward).
>>285153156You fell for the man-eating rapist geezer lying to manipulate the hero into betraying the heroine and the Christcuck villain going on a pretentious pro-life spiel because he'd rather destroy the world than not force his fetish for evil on others. Angra Mainyu was consistently shown to literally be all evils of the world ever since the first route. Claiming that it doesn't have "a" will is pure sophistry, because it's all ill will in existence concentrated into one distilled substance that corrupts others.
>>285155348
>>285155531>despite the fact some seem to actively go against Shirou's character (as opposed to, say, moving back vs moving forward).Just bad decisions. Nothing really against the character. Archer is Shirou yet he wasn't the same Shirou we see in Fate routes for example.
>>285155570Then Shirou going full retard and just giving Kirei his command spells is also 'in-character'?
>>285155616What's out of character about it?
>>285143638Her sword is invisible not because she's underhanded but because Excalibur is THE most famous sword in all of human history, everyone would know who she is on sight.
>>285155550
>>285155570My issue with that is that while many are simply bad choices, some like Bad End 20, where he agrees to work with Caster, feels a bit 'too' out of character, even in spite of the fact she was threatening Taiga. But some people use them to inform Shirou or Shiki's characters, and I'm not really sure that's appropriate. To be honest, double checking the Dead Ends in Fate, there are fewer than I remember that seem completely unreasonable.
>>285155790F/HA Angra Mainyu=third war Angra Mainyu=/=F/SN Angra Mainyu. In F/SN, it's the evil deity that the people who sacrificed the original person wished for due to the grail granting that wish after he was reabsorbed into the grail after the third war, and in F/HA, the original person who the people sacrificed got summoned as a servant just like he was in the third war.
>>285155777Weakness doesn't seem to matter that much in Fate though.>Shirou knew it was Cu day one>never bothered to have Rin prepare dog meat to ask Cu to eat it>everyone knew it was Herc day one>nobody bothered to use hydra or centaur blood arrow against him>Kayneth knew Waver would summon Dude>never bothered to prepare poison against him
>>285155908>never bothered to have Rin prepare dog meat to ask Cu to eat itI guess it might have been worth a shot to ask her to do that. Chinese food is her forte, after all.
>>285148988Friendly reminder that Rebellion ended with a death count of negative three.
>>285155884PFFFFFFFFFFFF
>>285155908>implying Cú didn't know about the loopholes in his own geas>implying hydra or centaur blood is easy to come about in the modern age>implying Alexander didn't die of alcoholism instead of poison
>>285155945It's been a bit, but I recall him basically changing the subject and pointing fingers at her specifically, before getting interrupted by Assassin.
>>285155908Didn't Alcides get one shotted by Hydra venom and only survived cause he's an Alter?
>>285156096>only survived cause he's an Alter?You mean>only survived cause Narita is a hack
>>285155908ironically the only place where that applied was Prisma Illya
Op. You should stop being terminally online on 4chan and reddit. Those are delusional echochambers and not represent the mass in any way. Majority still thinks it is better than forced juvenile romance and boring slop ideals of generic mcs made to sell without a second thought of the setting. Beside teens, most dont take interest in bunch chunni kids or care about their opinions.
>>285152946well i always hate these fags. Hope they give her to gilgamesh under the shits like timeline corrupted to reset her state to virgin as canon going forward and make them jump off the roof is funnyI doubt she can ever be reappeared in fsn or had a romance route if Nasu met gen urobuchi before FSN existed. Zero is more fitting as natural endpoint for her. Zero is main default now and her in fsn seems just redundant
>>285157647holy fucking retard
>>285136561>WAHHHH >ACTION SCARES ME!!>PLOT SCARES ME!!!!>ENDINGS WHERE EVERYONE LOSES SCARES ME!!>WHY CANT EVERYTHING BE ABOUT SLICE OF LIFE AND ROM COM LIKE MY OTHER ANIME!?!?!?!
>>285157748Damn mad over truth? Both of creators now are talentless hacks can't create anything that original anymore so they just keep it as it is to leech off till what possible till Typemoon dies She has been reused outside of fsn a lot so fsn isn't true endpoint anymore. It is just too many retards can't realize they want to change her.
>>285157882Completely SoL episode with Seibah and Iri would go hard.
I still think it's funny that after all this time you faggots still don't know the lore and still haven't read garden of avalon.
>>285157985If it isn't digested into 24 episodes that I could watch then I will ignore it.Simple.
>>285155908>nobody bothered to use hydra or centaur blood arrow against himBecause Hydra Venom is one of the rarest things you can find in the modern day, retard. >>285156687>>285156096Alcides survived because it's not an insta-kill. What killed Heracles wasn't the damage, but the excruciating pain it causes.
>>285156020>>285158018>hydra venom is super rare>what is UBW tracing hydra arrows which aren't divine
>>285158077>dude who can trace only blades efficiently tracing an extremely complex venom he's never seenI wonder why he never thought of it
>>285136561>ImplyingZero is great and the best thing to come out from this franchise. Fuck offNasu WISHES he was cool as Uro
You shouldn't be allowed to take part in conversations about Fate lore unless you can draw a floor plan of the Emiya residence from memory.
>>285154465Iskander is so overrated it's not even funny
>>285157934you're retarded
>>285158265>kills the designated jobber class>annoys everyone else>dies
>>285154465>Fate Zero has BRO ALELELELELELE kek, KEK
>>285158265I've never anyone so overwanked as much as him. His post-Zero stuff is fucking ridiculous.>considered a Top Servant equal to Cu, Lancelot, Karna>bumped up to a Divine Spirit in Case Files>IH has been buffed where his Army has their servant stats but they'll still have no access to their NPs
>>285154465Exactly. Variety is what nailed it over same 3 tropes of highschooler boring slops that have been done to death billion times before. I think this is the mentality of the fags in here about original creators = better and are good than other they see as a threat
>>285158385I mean with Cu and Lancelot there, the Top Servant classification means absolutely nothing
>>285158290what is your argument buddy? offered no argument then called others retard
>>285158385>IH has been buffed where his Army has their servant statsWasn't this always the case?
>>285158290I think you are another sabercuck that have bought all her merchs and spent your life over simping her. Lmao all the waifu money pumped into Nasu hoping he gave a shit about her then all money got pumped into a guy who isn't a waifu. I know it is scary to think that Nasu is charge of the ip and he can do whatever and cucks all her simps as a waifu later.
>>285158433the evidence speaks for itselfyou talk like a fag and your shit's all retarded
>>285158403Those 2 can beat Iskandar lmaoFuck, Medusa can beat him with ease.>>285158460I don't remember but IH has actual servants that are stronger than Iskandar himself stat-wise.
>>285158543Still not a real argument? All are delusional personal attacks that hold no weight
>>285158609>All areESL ass faggot retard
>>285158616Well Mr. native english speakers please give your argument if you are so fluent in english. Being raped after decades and non native english speakers must have been hurt
>>285158265He doesn't even "look" like Alexander the Great, more like Philip, and why use the Turkish nameHe should have been a Gilface
Show blew its load early.
>>285136561Literally one of the greatest prequels in the fiction. Ufotable's anime aged like shit though. Official LN translation when? Seriously how has this not happened yet?
>>285158695Gilgamesh and Alexander should switch appearances
>>285158695>d why use the Turkish nameAre you seriously asking why Nasu used the wrong name when choosing to use the completely fictional Altria over the proper female Roman Artoria?
>>285158385>considered a Top Servant equal to Cu, Lancelot, KarnaNot Karna but Iskandar was already considered equal or above Cu and Lancelot in Zero.>IH has been buffed where his Army has their servant stats but they'll still have no access to their NPsAlready a thing in Zero.
>>285158695>He doesn't even "look" like Alexander the GreatYou fell for the Roman grift.
>>285158755Cu is basically Irish fucking Hercules. It's not even close.
>>285158695Wasn't Iskandar what the persians called him...
>>285158755Iskandar's has no feats that makes him equal to them at all.He can't even beat Gilles' monster lmao
>>285158767Irish Heracles is still not Heracles. Diarmuid is Irish Lancelot and that doesn't mean anything.
>>285158755Cu deserves top servant status. Lancelot maybe, maybe not, he's known to be amazing but gets overshadowed by others of that era then spergs out. Karna is gay Indian OC and I don't like how boring he is in apoc.I can see Alexander definitely being better than Lancelot as a servant, but it's hard to say if he's really top tier since Waver was such a bad master. He definitely would be if he was allowed to spam IH freely.
>>285158737Nasu intends Artoria but can't spell for shit
>>285158791>He can't even beat Gilles' monster lmaoHe doesn't have an anti-fortress Noble Phantasm.
>>285158819People said that he prefers Altria because it sounds similar to Alter.
>>285158762Only the eyes are different
>>285158818>it's hard to say if he's really top tier since Waver was such a bad master. He definitely would be if he was allowed to spam IH freelyYeah, the reason he could only use IH a few times is that he had to use his own mana because Waver wasn't giving him enough
>>285158809Keep in mind, Cu is gimped by having Kirei as his master and under command seal to fight weaker than he normally does. Archer with infinite mana couldn't do shit to him. Lancelot isn't even a top tier servant. Saber acts completely fucking retarded against Deermud. It's ridiculous. Fucking Urobutcher.>>285158844what an idiot
>>285151239It's even funnier that Nasu wants people to believe that Shirou can beat Gilgamesh even if he was holding back.
>"Iskandar is strong!! It's just Waver being a shit master!">"Lancelot is dogshit!"Lancelot has better feats than Iskandar and his Master is the worst one.
>>285158809>>285158869Both Cu and Deermud get fucked by the servant system. Deermud's whole thing is using a sword and spear at the same time, he actually has 2 sets for when he's fucking around and when he's serious. As a servant he would definitely be better as a saber, but still much worse than in life. Of course he's still a shitter and gets gored by a boar because he was using his weaker set for no reason.Cu has a lot of extra hax from abilities that are only given to his caster and berserker counterparts. Runes and warp spasms are like half his legend. Still he's much better than Deermud.
>>285158896Shirou is a proper hardcounter to Gil. >>285158929I'm not saying he's dogshit. He's just not nearly on the same level as the real top tiers. Lancelot can fight good and use anything as his NP.Cu is a fucking mage, lancer, and even a goddamn archer if he abused the bullshit that is his spear rolled into one.
>>285158936Runes are not exclusive to his Caster form. He canonically can use some of them even as a Lancer.
>>285158896Shirou never beat Gil solo though. He had help from Saber, Rin and Archer.If Archer didn't summon Rho Aias protecting him from Gil when he was standing still and chanting to activate UBW, he'd die.And Gil was holding back in the fight anyway
>>285158977>And Gil was holding back in the fight anywaywe're back to this fucking cope huh
>Gil was about to use FUCKING EA against Shirou, an NP that GRINDS GALAXIES into his enemy>Holding back because muh armor
>>285158950Neither Shirou nor Lancelot hard counter Gil. Knight of Owner is a soft counter that stops working the moment GoB is opened to maximum output. UBW is a hard counter to GoB spam if it can be set up, but tons of shit that Gil owns could counter it and I'm not just talking about Ea.
>>285159012>tons of shit that Gil owns could counter it and I'm not just talking about Ea.sure
>>285158950>Shirou is a proper hardcounter to Gil.He's a high schooler going up against a servant. It's absurd.>>285158977>And Gil was holding back in the fight anywayNo matter how hard he's holding back, he has to have brain damage to let Shirou cut his arm off.
>>285158981>doesn't wear his armor>never use Ea straight away>shoots swords knowing Shirou can trace them when he can just shoot a blunt weapon or literally anything else and he'd winHe can shoot a shield or a fridge or something lmao
>>285159026>He's a high schooler going up against a servant. It's absurd.My anon in autism, a high schooler can cut up the Ultimate One of the earth
>>285159037technically maces and hammers are just blunt swords
>conveniently ignores how Shirou had help from 3 people; 2 which are servants>"he hard counters Gil!"Shiroufags are retarded as usual.
>>285159037UBW is able to trace more than just swords, getting more difficult the more they drift from that concept. Other melee weapons are easy.
>>285159073>Gil has the help of dozens of orphan children over a decade>"he was holding back"
>>285159086Shirou could also just make sword versions of those. He already does arrow-sword versions.
>>285159012>tons of shit that Gil owns could counter it and I'm not just talking about EaWhat are you talking about?
>>285159137Probably that "Gil has everything imaginable," bullshit.
>>285158936Talking about Celtic servants, Fionn is the one who really got fucked over, not necessarily by the servant system per se, but by FGO's writing gimping him for no reason when he should be one of the strongest servants in the entire franchise.
>>285159231Fion sucks cause he's male trash
>>285158566the fuck is cu or lancelot gonna do about hetairoi? we've already seen lancelot get btfo by the chariot alone
>>285159735>army of heroic spirits with no NPs, protective or offensive>anti-army NP
>>285159735>what is anti-army Gay Bulge
>>285159754>>285159774>5-40 targetshave fun trying to do anything to 10000+ attackers
>>285159790He only needs to kill Alex
>>285159790>what is low mana cost>what is A-rank agility>what is Protection from Arrows
>>285159800how is he gonna do that? the chariot is too fast to avoid or hit without guaranteed hit bullshit which thrown gae bolg doesn't have while he has to avoid all the attackers at the same time>>285159813>low mana costbeing favorable and saying he has to kill only 5000 enemies, can he use it 100 times in one battle? i doubt it. and that's while trying to not get killed by the army, some of them being other legit heroes. can cu normally fight even five heroic spirits at once?>A-rank agilityassuming they don't stat-match him (ptolemy has A agility too for example) having to run away while avoiding thousands of enemies and the chariot at the same time isn't viable>PfAwow, they can't get him with a thrown spear. not gonna help against getting piked.
>>285159910Let's think outside the box. Can he use his conflagration rune to do AoE damage? Can he challenge Iskandar directly to single combat like it often happens in ancient epics?
>>285160056>>285159910And technically, we know for a fact that he has a rune as Lancer that prevents an opponent from fleeing.
>>285160056>runesto some degree probably but iskandar is going to have his own mages too in the hetairoi. >single combatwe have examples going both ways. 1v1 me bro vs artoria where iskandar chose to save waver rather than kill artoria, and 1v1 me bro was gil where he got shitstomped despite using his army.
>>285160084>to some degree probably but iskandar is going to have his own mages too in the hetairoi.lol no
>>285160084Lancer is absolutely godlike in 1v1 so trying to appeal to Iskandar's machismo and asking him to single combat might just be his best shot. Can Iskandar allow to lose face in front of the hetairoi by refusing the duel?
What are we even talking about? Iskandar has already beaten Cu in Extella.
>>285160220>ExtellaWhy are you bringing up your love for dogshit here?
>>285160081Ath nGabla only works on the Knights of the Red Branch. Bazett who is their successor is able to deny it too so it's not even a good rune.
>>285160234>i-it doesn't countGotcha, thanks for the concession.
>>285136561The objective anime adaptation ranking>El Melloi Casefiles>Heavensfeel=Zero> FGO Camelot>>>UBW>FGO Babylonia>>>>>FGO Solomon>Apocrypha>>>>>>>>>>>>>Deen>Last Encore
>>285159910>the chariot is too fast to avoid or hit without guaranteed hit bullshitThe internet says the chariot's top speed is 400 km/h. I really doubt that this would in any way pose a problem for a servant with a rank agility.
>>285160264I guess EMIYA, Tamamo, and Nero are all Karna tier then
>>285160240I only played HA so I didn't know that it had such restrictions. But I don't remember Bazett ever implying that she could just no sell its effects.
>>285160291Apoc is better than el memelioi>But muh waver shillzero secondary lol
>>285160294A-rank agility Artoria couldn't avoid it (and her Excalibur activation was slower than the chariot charge). Lancelot had A+ agility and couldn't dodge it either. >>285160323Bazett repeatedly refuses to fight Cu in the Ath nGabla scene until he taunts her enough that she gets mad and accepts the 1v1. It's not some brainwashing rune or even strong magic, the Red Branch swore a vow to accept it but that's it.
>>285160336Lol no. The apoc anime is not a good adaptation, and the original Apoc LN isn't good to begin with.
Iskandar is a top servant and very strong. Genuinely, the only way you'd deny this is being a tertiary or from some Saberfag zone like Reddit.
>>285160345It's been a looot of years since I read HA so I'll trust you on that. I only remember that after he inscribed the runes on the ground she says that it's a runic spell that forbids the challenged target from retreating until either Lancer or the challenged target dies.
>>285160416Well, not only the challenged target, but also forbids Lancer from retreating as well, IIRC. Basically the VN described it as the designated "1v1 me bro" rune.
>>285160393>Zero fag calling anyone a tertiary
>>285160453Yes because I read all novels and played the games, shitposter
>>285160294Maybe you should actually either watch or read Zero. Iskandar was separated by 100 meters. When Saber activated her NP, he crosses nearly that full distance before she can swing her sword. And even his failure is attributed to his concern over Waver. If he had been 10 meters closer, Saber would have died. Rider’s chariot is fast as hell
>>285159774Anti army targets. It does not guarantee success.>>285159813Low cost GB is for the thrust version
>>285154973>Cu ChulainnThey are totally different people. Even though Cu is a hero and has the morals of one, he doesn't have the attitude of a knight nor does he appeal to Saber’s tastes the way Diarmuid did. Diarmuid just behaved like a decent knight and as a Servant he is pretty chill and honest; he simply appeals to Saber’s preferences more than any other Servant. Regarding Cu, if you look at it from her perspective, the first thing she saw was a hero trying to kill a teenage mage who clearly had no talent (since she wasn't getting enough Mana from Shirou). Diarmuid, from their first encounter, acted in an exemplary way in her eyes, challenging her from a safe distance with his presence. People have preferences. Diarmuid is closer to her personality. That’s it.>Talking about classes and then making exceptionsIt’s much more likely that a Servant from the other classes will face you head-on. My post clearly refers to "Servants who face you head-on." You’d expect an Assassin or a Caster to not exactly be in that category. About Medusa, I think I remember she isn't a normal Heroic Spirit, and she’s considered an Anti-Hero anyway, right? Saber has superior Instinct and can recognize Medusa’s monstrous identity.And finally, about Archer, you’re talking about a situation where there were two Servants extremely close to her Master right after repelling one of them who was trying to kill him. You don’t need much intelligence to understand what the priority is in that moment, especially after being damaged by a Noble Phantasm and not having enough support from her Master to heal. After losing her shot at the Grail in the last war, I doubt you’d wait for your opponent to get closer to your clearly rookie Master or to yourself while being wounded right at the start of your new chance to get the Grail. You’re ignoring the circumstances.
>>285154973>>285161130>she flat out states being compelled to give her name in return - REGARDLESS OF CLASS - and then doesn't.She doesn’t do it because Kojirou didn't introduce himself out of a code of chivalry or morals. Kojirou is an Assassin class Servant, but he is an honest person. Those are two logical reasons to take him at his word and not reveal her identity, don't you think? Regarding the classes, I already explained that before. Kojirou is a —SERVANT— who faces you directly, but he is still an Assassin. That’s a valid reason to take his words seriously but stay on guard. When Kojirou reveals his honest motives in UBW, Saber understands him completely and decides to show him her full skill as a sign of respect, and she even apologizes to him for treating him like he didn't deserve her full attention.
Saber is a Hisuiface
Arcueid's big fat futa cock trending because of that melty blood figure is funny
>>285159137If Gilgamesh starts bringing out shit other than swords and spears, things would start getting rough for Shirou. It doesn't matter anyway. Gilgamesh will always, always lower himself to his opponent's level without exception. He will never use more power than strictly necessary. Naked Gilgamesh will never appear when battling Archer.
>>285136561zerocucks aren't even fatefans
>>285136561Zero is better than any FSN adaptation.
This is what a semi-serious Gilgamesh looks like:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oBrfmQ1-Z0>Gate of Babylon deployed all around the battlefield from all angles, ready to fire at any moment>Ea out, fired as a normal attack without reservation>Freely using Enkidu to restrain and restrict enemy movements>New Anti-Divine Noble Phantasm, Utu Duranki EX , the arrow Marduk used to defeat Tiamat at the world's genesis
>>285161180The reason she doesn't give her name is because Assassin explicitly admits that "Sasaki Kojiro" isn't actually his name. The name is meaningless to him and can't be used to exploit his weakness.
>>285163699then Nasu isn't even a fate creator himself if he allowed it to be adapted and a part of the series rofl, what with these childish hates without a braincell put into it. It is more fate and respects the concept than what Nasu does with the series later.
No versions of Fate are good it's a terrible story.
>>285163994they hate it because it does not have a school boy that they can self insert into
If Kiritsugu was going to kill Kayneth and Sola-Ui from the outset, why didn't he just kill them immediately? Why give them the illusion of hope? Why wait until Kayneth begged to be killed? Is that really pragmatism?
>>285163947No. It's because he stops her. He doesn't want to help caster and doesn't care about her name. He only seeks meaning in a battle to the death.
>>285163947>Assassin explicitly admits that "Sasaki Kojiro" isn't actually his nameThis happens after Saber decides not to give her name. Whether or not it was a "true" name had nothing to do with her decision.
>>285164543First, he needed Sola as a hostage, then he needed Kayneth to order Diarmuid to die to maximize efficiency. It's ruthless. Because of the contract, he could no longer kill Kayneth or even order Kayneth to be killed.
>>285164193Same thought. Just look at a sad fuck a few thread before insulted without offering any real arguments at the thought their waifus and lores can be changed in the future for longevity. They don't care about the series but more like identity and waifus that they have been invested so much while the series has moved on a long time ago. All the damage controls and hates on some obscure forums or online won't ever reach the creators on what they want to do with their own ip. Even if it does then why should the creators care beside they enjoy it or not. Gatekeeping is a waste of time on big ip like this anyway
>>285164855Seems excessively roundabout and causing more pain than necessary. I feel like if it were Archer, he would have ended their misery much more cleanly and efficiently. I always felt that Kerry's methods were much more messy and extreme compared to someone like Archer. Then again, in exchange, Archer was also generally chattier.
I think the difference between Kiritsugu and Archer's brands of pragmatism lie in how much they value efficiency + their own individual hang-ups and character flaws.I wouldn't call Kiritsugu a perfectionist, but he's someone who will always insist on getting his odds as close to 100% as possible. If it's possible to raise his odds of victory from 98% to 99%, he will take it, not matter how much time, money, effort and resources he needs to get to that point, provided it's possible at all. Obviously, he has his limits, but the more he can guarantee his victory, the better. Archer, on the other hand, would deem going through so much trouble to raise his odds of victory by just 1% to be inefficient. Obviously, the lower your odds of victory the more than 1% matters, but if he can already confirm a 98% shot, he won't go out of his way to chase after another 1%. Destroying an entire hotel building, for instance, in order to take out his target, probably isn't something he'd normally consider.To put it another way, Kiritsugu is someone who will blow off a target's arms and legs if he believes it will raise his odds of victory, and only after he's confirmed that the target is a wriggling stump on the ground with no way of launching a counterattack, will he then finally end their life. Archer would just shoot them in the head.
>>285165795Their personalities play a large factor in why they are the way they are. Kiritsugu is someone who is constantly plagued by feelings of inadequacy. He believes that his humanity is a weakness that he needs to suppress in order to maximize his efficacy, and to that end he will go out of his way to perform unethical or inhumane acts purely in order to "force" himself into the role of an absolute pragmatic killer. He overcompensates for his own feelings of weakness. Going back to that hotel example, Kiritsugu actually considered just blowing the hotel up while everyone was still inside, but at the last minute, his conscience got the better of him and he issued a bomb threat to force an evacuation. Archer, of course, probably wouldn't even consider such a ridiculously excessive action in the first place. Even if he'll kill an innocent to raise his odds of victory, the kill an entire hotel of innocent bystanders just to kill one mage when no lives were immediately on the line would be pretty absurd by his standards.Shirou is someone who sympathizes with both victims and villains and would prefer to spare both if possible. Obviously, he can't, so he settles for ending their lives as quickly and efficiently as possible. In general, he won't prolong someone's suffering if he can help it, even if it might slightly raise his odds of victory.
