>>286726739
They don't possess the sentience or self awareness. They are an appetite attached to a LLM. They spit out whatever string of words they predicted makes you easier to eat. That's it.

>>286727060
LLMs are not intelligent. They do not have an innate sense of self or the ability to choose. They are in effect autocomplete programs trained on millions of parameters. Fictional AIs like Skynet are not applicable because they are either individual agents or hivemind.

Frieren demons are portrayed as free willed sapient individuals with senses of self and variance in personality.

>>286726739
You're arguing with people who think bombing schools is worth losing every one of their millitary allies.
Empathy (and logic) are not their strong points.

>>286726739
>No reason is given
Yet. It is obvious to anyone with eyes that they are magically created organisms, they like monsters are programmed to destroy humanity / elves by an as of yet unknown enemy. Can they resist this? Yes. They however see no point in doing so. Even Macht while academically looking for a reason to co-exist, could not emotionally be bothered. He knew that without an emotional connection, demons that tried to co-exist would just relapse because they have no intention to quit.

>>286727158
And yet it's stated that they biologically evolved to be the way that they are. So are they just magic creatures, or are they biological organisms?

>>286727100
They don't display senses of self any more than a pack animal can by knowing if it's an alpha or beta. They just have words as a weapon. No introspection no capacity for anything other than indulging appetite now or indulge a little later.

>>286726739
I dunno, it seems realistic considering that this is a concept thats been explained and demonstrated for you dozens of times and you still don't get it. I guess its just in your nature to not be able to handle concepts like this.

>>286726739
Swap "demons" for "humans" and "humans" for "cows".

>>286727185
>They don't display senses of self any more than a pack animal can by knowing if it's an alpha or beta.
Literally every demon in the show displays demonstrable sentience with internal monologues and thought processes just like that of a human being. Every demon in the show is different in personality from the last one. Lugner isn't like Macht. Linie is not like Soltair. They're smart enough to come up with complex theories on magic, which is something that most humans in the setting can't even do. Macht demonstrates capacity for introspection several times on screen.

>>286727179
Why does one preclude the other?

>>286727227
This is philosophically incompatible with what we're talking about. You're an armchair philosopher who doesn't know what they're talking about.
>>286727239
Because if they're just magical creatures that were spawned in, then they shouldn't really be biologically evolving, at least not the extent that's stated in the show.

>>286726739
"It's just in their nature" is just cope for sloppy writing.
There's clearly examples of demons demonstrating sentience.

Seething faggot still mad that his demon waifu lost her head

>>286727310
SHE SHOULD HAVE JOIND THE PARTY AND BEEN FORCED TO LEARN GOODNESS I KNOW THOS STORY BETTER THAN THE AUTHOR.

>evidence for the demons being sentient is pointing to the events as told in the story
>evidence for the demons not being sentient is pointing to what the characters in the story have to say about the events
Why is this even a debate? Is this one of those media literacy memes?

>>286726739
I'm glad that the demons have stopped being the main enemies now that their strongest leaders are dead. They are boring villains.

>>286727339
You're so close to understanding the problem.

>>286727260
It's the truth. Sword demon had a point.
"Gotta eat to live, bro."
"But you don't have to eat humans."
"ok, but why not?"
Frieren proceeds to abandon the conversation because she sees it as self-evident that humans shouldn't be eaten even though it's not.

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>>286726739

>>286726739
Total Linie Love

This entire stupid argument is immediately solved the moment that you stop insisting that things be handled purely in absolutist terms, and that you allow yourself to recognize that demons have canonically changed over time and thus can be assumed to be continuing to change further.

Demons canonically evolved from monsters that mimicked human voices to lure travelers into danger.

There was a time when >>286727060 was correct and they were just predators with chatbot logic to try and trick humans easier.

Modern demons have evolved to be something that is still influenced by their origins are human predators, but have made use of language for more than just trickery, using it to also convey information between themselves for coordination.

Demons, over time, are also becoming more interested in humanity and more human-like in terms of visible personality. See: demon girl from the current arc being a young demon that wants to know why humans do the things they do with a chipper, upbeat attitude that craves social reinforcement, while the older demon she is speaking to is a cold, aloof figure that doesn't think about humans much at all beyond how to kill them better. The contrast between the old demon and the young one is striking.

Frieren's perspective on demons WAS unambiguously correct at one time. And she phrases it in absolutist terms because she NEEDS there to be no room for challenging that stance with her party members, because if Fern or Stark believe that demons can be sympathized with one or more of them is going to get killed for that mistake. But that doesn't mean that Frieren's statement is universally as true as she thinks it is, or that demons cannot change beyond her original conception of them.

>>286727386
because she loves his human friends thats why, is not that difficult to understand. I dont think we have an objective correct solution to this dilemma but she has a strong and respectable poitn of view

>>286727424
>Frieren's perspective on demons WAS unambiguously correct at one time.
The problem is that she's never framed as wrong for her beliefs on the demons no matter how extreme.

>>286727179
You kow how Christians after realizing the bible makes no sense they started thinking
>bro it's a metaphor lmao
(their favorite cope) and then started believing that god created everything and had it evolve in his plan?

It's a retarded argument to point to the show when the show itself is wrong, applying logic demons are contrary to what the Anime says they are
It's a circular argument

>>286727457
Because all of the strongest evidence that presents demons as more than she says they are come from scenes where *Frieren is not present*. interactions between demons with no human around to see them, or conversations between Macht and a human, or so on.

Frieren is still correct that demons are dangerous, seemingly universally hostile to humans, and cannot be trusted because their primary tactic is deceit. Her 'shoot first, ask questions later' approach has yet to fail her so her beliefs about demons have not been challenged. But you, the reader, with context and information that Frieren herself does not posses should be more than equipped to draw your own conclusions. Especially since Frieren has on multiple topics been shown in the story to have a gulf between her words and her actions. Not everything that Frieren says is pure, undiluted truth to be take taken as law.

>>286727494
> my headcanon is not supported by the actual events of the show, so the author is the one that is in the wrong

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1q9JXAF2uFU

>>286727567
If they wanted to show her being wrong, they'd actually have to frame her as being in the wrong. Instead, she's constantly proven right about everything regarding the demons. The only time they have ever tried testing her beliefs, she was proven to be right once again. How many more chapters does this have to go on for before you admit this is a problem?

>>286727424
>This entire stupid argument is immediately solved the moment that you stop insisting that things be handled purely in absolutist terms
fuck off fencesitter. You are the first in the wall

>>286726739
>its just their nature
What more do you want?
Arguably it's more "won't" than "can't", but functionally there's no real difference.

>>286726739
You are the same type of retard that bitched and complained when the MC in the Promised Neverland went "I don't want to kill the demons" despite them being people-eating monsters and if any character here actually unironically decided to not want to murder Frieren demons and the narrative agreed with them despite all evidence to the contrary about why this is retarded, you'd bitch about that too.

There are plenty of reasons as to why demons act the way that they do and this has been explained to you over and over. You are simply too fucking stupid to get them.

>>286727770
>There are plenty of reasons as to why demons act the way that they do and this has been explained to you over and over.
And I've been pretty clearly explaining in these threads why these "explanations" don't make sense.

>>286727424
Considering the demons who destroyed her village had enough pride as magicians to want to show off, Frieren's perspective on demons WAS unambiguously incorrect even back then.

>>286727755
>What more do you want?
An actual fucking reason? Frieren was able to change her nature as an elf to become more emotional and empathetic, that's literally what the story is about. Why can't demons do the same?
>>286727770
>Opens his entire argument on a strawman

>>286726857
He already does and these threads are how OP copes, please understand

>>286727812
>Frieren was able to change her nature as an elf to become more emotional and empathetic
What the fuck are you on about? That's not "her nature as an elf", nor is it particularly changed. She's lived as a recluse for a millennium so she's socially retarded; travelling with both parties has made her somewhat less so. That's not "changing her nature", it's just learning.
And again: Why WOULD demons do the same? They don't want to.

>>286727060
you have to be genuinely retarded to still believe this after seeing them have conversations with each other and with characters they have history with

>>286727457
>>286727567
Frieren isn't framed as wrong because Frieren herself DOES acknowledge demons can change - the Demon King wanted to truly understand humans, that was his whole motivation behind everything he did. Frieren also, rightly, points out that by the time he managed to figure out humanity and how to replicate it in demons, all of humanity would be long dead. Which is why he had to die.

Frieren knows demons can potentially change or grow. She's also well aware that not only do most demons lack the capacity to push for said change or to even bother altering their lifestyles for the better, but that they'd kill every other race in the time it would take for them to learn how. It's even pointed out that the most dangerous demons are the ones that actually YEARN to comprehend mankind, like Macht or Solitar or the Demon King, because of the extremes they'll go to in order to do so.

>>286727812
Frieren elves are not inborn sociopaths incapable of empathy or even basic pack-bonding. They're just, by default, unemotional and prone to more logical thinking.

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>>286726739
>coexists with the face eating leopard party
>surely it wont happen to me

Reminder that the only correct way to deal with a demon is to kill them on sight

>>286727843
It's explicitly stated that demons only developed language as a means to trick other races for consumption and that even today, where they'll use it for ease of communication between each other, the majority of them have no fucking clue what half of the words they use even mean - even basic terminology such as "father" or "mother". Anon is wrong only in the sense that current modern-day demons aren't walking ChatGPT anymore, but they're still parroting shit they barely understand.

>>286727235
idiot racists are the ones who aren't sentient, they hear one facile (and immediately obviously incorrect) excuse for dehumanizing and killing a whole population and they're like DONE, NO NEED TO EVER THINK ABOUT WHAT IM SEEING

>>286727836
Elves are repeatedly described in the story as being unempathetic and emotionally withdrawn. This is usually due to their extremely long lifespans compared to humans. Frieren's entire journey is about learning to overcome that, and she's been successful. Why can't the demons do the same? Macht very clearly wants to, and so do many other demons.

>>286727799
It's established early on that one of the few things demons care about is their pride in their magic. This isn't a sign of them being the same as 'people', it's something they do to demonstrate who has the biggest magical cock and who the rest should be subordinate to. It's basic animal hierarchy shit.

>>286727844
>incapable of empathy or even basic pack-bonding. They're just, by default, unemotional and prone to more logical thinking.
Not only is there several pieces of evidence pointing to the idea of demons having empathy for each other, this doesn't mean that they can't change their beliefs. Data from Star Trek, for instance, cannot feel human emotions, and yet he's able to use logical deduction to come up with his own set of beliefs. Just being a sociopath doesn't make you murderously evil, and just because you don't experience love or empathy doesn't mean you can't observe that humans dislike it when other humans are killed, even if they have no gut aversion to doing it themselves. There should be absolutely nothing stopping them from adopting set of beliefs that allows them to co-exist alongside people. The story has given them all the components necessary to.

>>286727884
>Elves are repeatedly described in the story as being unempathetic and emotionally withdrawn. This is usually due to their extremely long lifespans compared to humans.
See, you said yourself: this isn't by nature, it's due to their environment
>Why can't the demons do the same?
Again, why WOULD they? A small number have tried out of curiosity, and been shit at it. The vast majority of them don't even consider the idea.

>>286727567
>Because all of the strongest evidence that presents demons as more than she says they are come from scenes where *Frieren is not present*.
That's blatantly false, the very first anecdote Frieren has about demons being evil (the demon kid adopted by that villager) proves incontrovertibly that demons are sentient, thinking, self-aware beings with individuality and the ability to form relationships. The only issue is that they don't understand human morality, as it's culturally alien to them and they don't comprehend the value of human life.

Frieren is far more evil than the demons are, she has the cultural capacity to understand others and instead has chosen to be a genocidal bigot.

>>286727877
>It's explicitly stated that demons only developed language as a means to trick other races for consumption
Which is immediately contradicted by them using it to communicate with each other constantly. They also show no confusion when using certain words, meaning that they understand what they're saying.
>>286727919
>This isn't a sign of them being the same as 'people',
They're literally showing moral values. They think other demons dying is wrong and hiding your mana is morally wrong. If they were truly amoral, they wouldn't believe that there was an action that is wrong.

>>286727604
she's shown to be wrong every single time we meet a new demon

>>286727770
did you not watch the end of Promised Neverland? The demons are completely justified

>>286727884
>Elves are repeatedly described in the story as being unempathetic and emotionally withdrawn.
Wrong. They're emotionally withdrawn, but not unempathetic. Not even Serie is unempathetic. We have multiple examples of truly heroic elves who act about as emotionally constipated as Frieren whilst being significantly older who have demonstrated the capacity to act in spite of their low social intelligence for the good of all. Frieren elves are hyper autists, rather than literally lacking empathy as a rule.

>Why can't the demons do the same?
Because they don't care. And the majority can't even comprehend the concept.

>Macht very clearly wants to,
And he failed at it so hard that he froze an entire city alive in solid gold for decades to try and comprehend malice and guilt and STILL failed, with their intention of leaving to repeat the act in another human city. Then another. Then another. You are literally braindamaged if you cannot comprehend how this is a walking extinction event in the making to let him remain alive.

>>286727868
What if you're a rapechad and you see a cute pink-haired demon?

>>286727947
>See, you said yourself: this isn't by nature, it's due to their environment
It's explicitly said to be by their nature in the story. Also, couldn't you make a similar argument for the demons? They're born without parents and have to fend for themselves and have an entire culture revolving around power.
>Again, why WOULD they?
Because it'd be far easier for their species to survive if they could coexist.

>>286727877
>It's explicitly stated that demons only developed language as a means to trick other races for consumption
and it's been repeatedly demonstrated how that is either a total lie or a hopelessly incomplete understanding of them, because they act in ways contrary to that idiot reductive belief EVERY SINGLE SCENE THEY'RE IN, retard

>>286727954
>genocidal bigot
Oh, you're just baiting. And here I was thinking I was talking with a sapient organism.

People will empathize with literally everything if you put a pretty face on it huh

Wasn't the cope that the demons were pretending or something?

>>286728015
You are the only retard here. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING, about how they behave has been proven to be incorrect. For fucks sake, even the basic conception of a family is lost on them despite them having observed humans for centuries, if not millennia - all they can do is parrot words relating to the concept at people yet they'll freely admit when alone that they have no fucking clue what the words mean. That screams a fundamental inability for them to perceive communication as anything but a tool, which THEY EVEN ADMIT.

>>286727965
At the end of the day, demons are a challenge to the readers to confront an alien morality, and like Frieren, the bigots fail to even comprehend the framing of the issue over and over. These 'people' are incapable of empathy and understanding.

>>286727997
>Wrong. They're emotionally withdrawn, but not unempathetic. Not even Serie is unempathetic. We have multiple examples of truly heroic elves who act about as emotionally constipated as Frieren whilst being significantly older who have demonstrated the capacity to act in spite of their low social intelligence for the good of all. Frieren elves are hyper autists, rather than literally lacking empathy as a rule.
That doesn't refute literally anything I just said. Them being emotionally withdrawn and not sociopaths isn't the argument here. Part of the entire problem with the series' characterization of demons is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil. Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.

The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.
>Because they don't care. And the majority can't even comprehend the concept.
Macht literally killed himself trying to find ways to do it. His entire arc is about this.

>>286727927
>Not only is there several pieces of evidence pointing to the idea of demons having empathy for each other
There isn't. This is retarded fucking bait and I refuse to indulge it.

>>286728038
Can you give me a single reason not to empathize with demons?

>>286728049
>"Demons only use language to deceive. There's only one reason why man-eating predators would speak the human language."
>Immediately shows them talking to each other to exchange information with no humans in earshot

>>286726739
Just like pitbulls.

>>286728072
Have you... Seen the show?

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>>286728064
>Lugner cries out Linie's name which drops his guard and gets him killed
>Soltair stating that she hated the demon king's war because it killed her friends
>Pic related
Just because you don't want to acknowledge it, doesn't mean it's not there.

>>286728091
Answer the fucking question

>>286728073
i think it really is just a media comprehension issue and there's no hope for idiot rightoids at this point, it's that simple, the "mindless predator" claim is immediately and clearly contradicted yet these morons got their excuse to be shitheads so their brains short circuit and they just can't see it

>>286728012
>couldn't you make a similar argument for the demons?
Maybe? Who cares? Whether they're 99.9% murderous assholes because they're Just Built That Way or because their culture encourages it does not change the fact that anything other than destroying them is suicidal.
>Because it'd be far easier for their species to survive if they could coexist.
That is not how individuals think at all. Otherwise communism would work.

>>286728060
>Them being emotionally withdrawn and not sociopaths isn't the argument here.
It very much is, you goalpost-shifting subhuman.

>Part of the entire problem with the series' characterization of demons is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil.
But I thought "being emotionally withdrawn and not sociopaths wasn't the argument here". You were trying to draw a line connecting elves and demons behavior together based on similarities, so if the elves are equally as emotionally stagnant as demons yet can act like people without murdering and eating everyone they come across, what is that meant to say about demons? If elves are, as you yourself tried to insist, unempathetic as a race, how do they live with others whereas demons cannot?

Could the actual answer seriously just be that you're a retard who doesn't understand the setting? No, surely not.

>>286728119
>Maybe? Who cares?
So you're acknowledging the idea that the elf's environment could also have a help in making them who they are, but refuse the same for the demons?

>>286728073
>>286728113
>replying to himself
>"idiot rightoids"
>acting like the setting and author are in the wrong for showing people fighting back against the literal genocide and consumption of their own fuckind kind

what's especially jarring is how Frieren's claims about demons directly parallel claims irl made by racists against the targets of their bigotry. It's a 1:1 word-for-word repetition of 19th century racist logic. The fantasy nonsense is just the thinnest veneer for disguising it, yet that's enough for dumbasses to swallow it hook line and sinker (because they want to believe blatantly false justifications for racism)

>>286728138
No. These threads might be less retarded and repetitive if you learned to fucking read basic English.

>>286728119
>That is not how individuals think at all. Otherwise communism would work.
lol stfu retard

>>286728101
>shows the demon who cheerfully stabbed a guy with intent to kill (itself an act demonstrating an immense lack of empathy) to fish for meaningless "praise" (not a sign of empathy in and of itself) as proof that demons are anything other than subhuman
>Revolte doesn't even give a shit when she gets vaporized literally a page after this
This is not the gotcha you think it is.

>>286728127
>It very much is, you goalpost-shifting subhuman.
No, my argument the entire time is that they have demonstrated all the capabilities to simply change their beliefs and co-exist with human beings if the wanted to.
>But I thought "being emotionally withdrawn and not sociopaths wasn't the argument here"
Correct, because as I state later here.
>being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil. Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.
Which you clearly don't have an answer for. The demons should have absolutely zero problem with trying to co-exist with people. They've demonstrated all the sentience, self-awareness, understanding of morality, and self-control to be able to do so.

>>286728181
This demon cares enough about what this other demon thinks that it wants them to praise them.

>>286728170
I've long since stopped reading his posts by this point. He's completely insane and completely ESL to the point he's unironically equating monsters that kill families, destroy cities and eat people with IRL racism.

>>286726739
lmao everyone sympathizing with the demons are the exact people that would be the first ones killed. literally antivax retards.

>>286728190
How does this ad hominem disprove the arguments?

>>286728006
Kill on sight

>>286728072
Demons only see humans as prey. Why would I empathize with them?

>>286728182
>Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people
No, but it does mean the DON'T GIVE A FUCK.

>>286727060
They do have sentience, and can communicate. The issue is that they lack genuine understanding of empathy, it doesn't registers with them no matter how hard they try. A later arc will explore a demon that purposely worked under a human for years on end, basically became part of the family all to try and understand humans and maybe find some method of co-existence. He then without a hint of hesitation turns the entire city to gold when given the chance, and dies ultimately realizing there is absolutely no way they can ever exist living with each other.

>>286728226
So why are you in this thread if you already made your mind and are unwilling to challenge the arguments?

>>286728107
They're murderous aliens that physically cannot coexist with other sentient species, and barely do among themselves. It they try, and they rarely do because they rarely see the point, they fuck it up and make things even worse. Frieren POV doesn't need to be "challenged" because it's correct, and it keeps being proven correct again and again. This is not some parallel to our world no matter how much you want it to be, they're just another fantasy species of pure evil like DnD fiends except that they trick your brain into accepting them by looking cute, and apparently it works. Not exterminating them on sight would be suicidal for any human, elf or dwarf.

>>286728226
He's also flatly wrong because we have many, many examples of demons observing how killing humans brings pain to other humans - enough to recognize that it's a viable strategy to make other humans more vulnerable or even reckless. At no point do they feel the slightest hint of guilt or regret or recognition that their actions have caused genuine loss in the ones they've inflicted them upon. Some of these demons are fucking centuries old.

>>286726857
>>286727317
>>286727976
>>286728019
>>286728083
>"waaaaah we're not racist dipshits don't call us mean words!"
>can't stop being giant pieces of shit for even one thread

>>286728267
All of this is flatly contradicted multiple times in the show.

>>286728247
I came here to laugh at you.

>>286728320
You must have seen another show then.

>demons can change
yes, LLMs learn and grow. they're still fulfilling their primary objective: kill and eat humans.

>>286728320
Nope, he's completely right and at no time is he proven wrong. Even Macht, literally on his deathbed, recognizes that coexistence is impossible - which is already impressive for a demon who dedicated centuries of his life to figuring out the secret to it.

>>286728291
>At no point do they feel the slightest hint of guilt or regret or recognition that their actions have caused genuine loss in the ones they've inflicted them upon.
Demons don't see humans as people, the see them as livestock. Have you ever felt guilt for keeping billions of sentient beings, yor close biological relatives even, in tortoruous concentration camp feedlots with the sole goal of murdering and consuming them?
If demons did to humans what humans do to animals they'd be way more evil than the way they're depicted behaving in Frieren.

>>286728342
The same show that has pic here?
>>286728101
The same show that has the demons showing off sentience, intelligence, an understanding of human morality, self control over their own actions, and ability to think rationally? All of this is plainly shown throughout the show.

>>286726739
>Demons are explicitly stated to mimic the sentience, self awareness, intelligence and self control to change their beliefs in order to gain human trust
>anon soijaks and says “they act just like us so they are just like us!”

>Show about growing and learning
>Has a faction against growing and learning
?

>>286728352
Not even Macht solves this though. He was motivated by non-predatory desires to feel specific emotions (malice and guilt) but his methodology to artificially induce them was doomed from the start in a way that wouldn’t have worked even for humans. The very fact at all that he was motivated to achieve a human emotion even if it ultimately failed is even further proof that they’re biologically capable of choosing coexistence.

>>286728365
The demon kid that just tricked a human by abusing his empathy, and that's about to be disintegrated in the following page, only to be dismissed by her partner demon with a "whatever she was annoying". THAT's your example? Are you utterly fucking insane?

>>286727472
>fragile atheism out of nowhere
love to see your kind start sperging out at even the slightest trigger

>>286728384
>>Demons are explicitly stated to mimic the sentience, self awareness, intelligence and self contro
Then why do they display all of these things when humans aren't around?

these anons are thick as a brick and will never get it if they can't see what's rught in front of them
I'm more interested in the author's intent at this point, does she know what she's doing with this analogy or is she like Frieren?

>>286728419
>The demon kid that just tricked a human by abusing his empathy,
So they understand what empathy is enough to abuse it from humans? They care enough about what this random demon thinks that it wants them to praise them?

>>286728420
I'm not atheist. I'm just not a christcuck

>>286728419
>Are you utterly fucking insane?
He is.

>>286728420
is he wrong though?

>>286728419
>The demon kid that just tricked a human by abusing his empathy,
How did Jung know that trick would work? Do you remember the converstaion between Jung and Revolte in the episode before this?

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>People are empathizing with the corpse weeper from Made in Abyss just because it now has a humanoid shape

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>>286728460
Sorry, we forgot your kind worships demons irl and sacrifices children to them. No wonder you feel so attacked by Frieren and her policy of killing them on sight. Kike.

>>286728449
I can see 2 possibilities but both have a limited degree of understanding:
1. The author despite writing a backstory that would make them emotionless terminators still needs to write them as fully-fleshed out characters since they're often the big bad to defeat
2. The author does intend to contradict the backstory given but doesn't put much thought into it other than writing them as edgier humans with morality-specific autism.

For all intents and purposes, they're magical people who can seemingly learn everything but human morality. Bonds between demons have shown to be more than the simplistic power hierarchy that was defined for them. Demons have been shown to actually care about each other even if they view humans with the same love and attention as a chicken.

>>286728563
Except, unlike they corpse weeper, demons are shown to be acting, talking and thinking like people even when no one's watching them.

>>286728564
see? they just can't help themselves

>>286728572
>Demons have been shown to actually care about each other
They have not. Your examples do not prove what you think they prove.

>>286728563
if corpse weepers had culture and social relationships

>>286728608
Soltair said that she hated the demon king's war because it killed her friends.

>>286727985
Holy fucking shit anon. We're a half step away from someone arguing that billionaires and politicians are completely justified in eating children.

>>286728618
so you DIDN'T watch S2 of Promised Neverland?
Because what was going on there was not remotely what you seem to think it was

>>286728615
Solitar is also, explicitly, a pathological liar who spouts whatever she needs to get close to someone to kill them and only engages in communication because she likes learning all she can about a victim before murdering them.

>>286726739
Why can't you retarded faggots get over a pure evil species? Just kill yourselves already.

>>286728661
No anon you don't get it. A race of man eaters that live to deveive humans can't be all evil because some of them look cute!

>>286728454
They literally evolved from mimics that cried out for help because that would get them food. They don't need to understand it, it's a hunting strategy rooted in their DNA. Why are you forcing them to be humans when they're clearly not?

>>286728661
What is "evil"?
How is a beast evil?, because that's what you people argue the demons are, non sentient beasts.
So what is it, are they evil beings or not?

>>286728267
>They're murderous aliens that physically cannot coexist with other sentient species, and barely do among themselves. It they try, and they rarely do because they rarely see the point, they fuck it up and make things even worse.
So what you are saying is that they are distinguishable from humans

>>286728690
So how can they be evil then, they are no different from an animal in classification.

>>286728679
i hope you're a child and will grow out of this edgy braindead bullshit, if you're a "mature" adult you should recuse yourself from any positions of moral responsibility

>>286728690
>They literally evolved from mimics that cried out for help because that would get them food. They don't need to understand it,
Except they clearly do as they think to themselves in human language. They act exactly like people even when no people are watching them. f demons don't know what they are doing then they can't say they don't know what they are doing. So they MIMIC lie and deceit as seen from humans without understanding it, despite the fact that it is lie and deceit that serves their purpose perfectly for lowering the barrier and killing the humans in town. So they strategize without having a clue of what they doing? If they don't have morality and concept of good and evil then how come they mimic only vile things from humans too, not a single good gesture. I don't even want to get into the little girl demon plot, it bleeds from thousands of places too.
>>286728637
The context of that gave her very little reason to lie. They clearly value relationships beyond just using them to hunt people.

>>286728661
>Why can't you retarded faggots
>faggots
>plural
How have people not realized that these threads are made almost exclusively by one media illiterate schizo who's not interested in actually discussing the topic at hand?

>>286728661
People don't like it when writing is bad. Frieren's writing is bad.

>>286728716
If they are mere beasts then any argument against genociding them falls flat on its face. We've purged far less dangerous animals from our environment.

>>286728720
Yeah I'm sure the group that sends men to die in meaningless wars, tortures, murders and eats children is totally not fundamentally evil.
Now try figure out whether I'm talking about Frieren's demons or irl politicians.

>>286728391
It is kinda funny how all demons wholeheartedly dedicate their entire lives to growing and learning while the good guys are just extremely talented individuals who stagnate for millennia at the time.

>its another "we cant admit the frieren authors are just bullshitting their way through the story" thread
im guessing you guys also think every disney movie is in a shared universe

>>286728564
I'm not a christcuck nor a kike. Keep guessing

>>286726739
imagine something that actually properly explored it as a concept
like the main character is a philosopher. and they go to great lengths to prove something about demon nature.
and then it turns out that it really does make no sense, that's where the "evil' comes in

>>286728736
First thing first, I do believe that demons are sentient, just a completely alien sentence that's not comparable or compatible with other sentient races. The fact that they communicate between themselves with speech doesn't prove a thing. Speech is a convenient tool the same way Revolte's swords are convenient tools, they use it to coordinate to hunt humans more efficently, even pack animals do that. They simply saw humans do it, decided it's convenient and adapted It because they're smart enough to do that, the same way they adapted swords.

>>286728661
Morality and sentience are not the same. Them being evil doesn't explain why they act the way they do.

>>286727387
Go to bullying hell!

>>286728864
>just a completely alien sentence that's not comparable or compatible with other sentient races.
This is the same retarded, unconvincing excuse that Frieren fans use constantly try and justify why the demons are as contradictory and stupidly written as they are.
>The fact that they communicate between themselves with speech doesn't prove a thing/.
Actually, it does. It proves that they don't just use language to deceive and actually do understand the words they're using.
>Speech is a convenient tool the same way Revolte's swords
They use it for other things that aren't hunting humans.

>>286727179
>And yet it's stated that they biologically evolved to be the way that they are.

It is stated in-character, and every time there are circumstances calling the statement into question. The mages who state it were certain that the bracelet on Macht MUST be malfunctioning just a page ago, so they talked out of their asses. Within one page of stating that Solitar points out that the demons do not have the emotion of grief, even though Solitar herself clearly is plagued by it to the point of abandoning her usual policy of extreme caution for reckless action. Etc.

>>286728910
Why would something that evolved from a Murder Mimic work the same way as something that evolved from an ape? You're anthrophormizing them just because they're the shape of a human.
>Speech
They initially imitated language without understanding it because that got them food. Eventually they evolved sentience and started to use speech as a tool. Tools can be used in many ways, but they're still mostly human hunters and they'll either never change, or change too far in the future to allow them to coexist while they murder all of us. You do agree that a human/elf/dwarf life is more valuable than what is mostly a murderbot, right?

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>>286729050
>You're anthrophormizing them just because they're the shape of a human.
No, I'm blatantly stating what the series shows over and over again about them despite what the characters say and how it's contradictory.
>They initially imitated language without understanding it because that got them food. Eventually they evolved sentience and started to use speech as a tool
>Tools can be used in many ways
Except, it's initially stated by Frieren that speech for them is only a tool used to deceive and a demon later follows up with this by saying that there's "only one reason" why man-eating predators would speak the human language. We are then shown them using it to communicate to each other to exchange information. That's directly contradictory, and that's bad writing.

>>286729050
By your own logic they should all be equally valuable
I guess a human/elf/dwarf could be considered more valuable since they contain meat and other valuable materials but I don't think thats what you are going for

>>286726739
>Ants demonstrably possess all the sentience, self awareness, intelligence and self control to change their beliefs and co-exist with other insects
>No reason is given for why they can't other than "its just their nature"

>>286729133
>Seeing them as food
So you are a demon irl. No wonder it's pointless to argue with you. You replicate speech but you don't understand what is being said.

From this point onwards I'm simply gonna assume that demon defenders are being disingenous or trolling.

>>286729034
>Solitar herself clearly is plagued by it to the point of abandoning her usual policy of extreme caution for reckless action.
Again, wrong. See >>286728637

>>286729194
One of the most insane things I've seen come out of modern day discourse online is people making these insane reductions into strawmen that could be disproven by anyone with a 70iq. It's amazing to me that anyone actually believes this.

Ants are not remotely intelligent on the level of human beings.

>>286729194
>they can't
But ants can coexist with other insects, like aphids for example.

>>286726739

Anon, it is useless, there are way too many posters who cling to the idea of guilt-free murder like it is lifeline.

Even though for Frieren herself it is most certainly not guilt-free, even to this day, she says so herself. And the further story goes, the more the whole demon situation is written as a tragedy.

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>>286728661
Lazy writing

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>>286728661
Because humans are such nice friendly creatures right?

>>286729334
>izquotes.com
Do normalfags really? Kek

>>286726739
Nigger stop spamming this shit at this point it's just sad

>>286728754
I wouldn't say it's bad. Frieren does a lot of things really well. But logic around demons is not one of them.

TOTAL DEMON DEATH

>>286729323
Even with Aura she tried to talk her out of besieging the city first.

>>286729334
>The Heart
William Faulkner was a Bleachfag confirmed.

>>286726739
test

>>286728815
>the good guys are just extremely talented individuals who stagnate for millennia at the time
But this doesn't happen in Frieren?
I guess Serie is like that, but who else?

>>286729250

Yeah, Solitar lies a lot. But a lot of her lies are evidently self-deprecating. She said that she will beg and whine for her life if defeated (not because she expected that to work on Frieren, but because she figured out it will emotionally hurt the elf), but when mortally injured her actual reaction was "a fitting fate for me, I guess". She said that demons will always be demons, yet she changed from a person who never shows her face to anyone who can conceivably kill her, to a person who willingly, under no coersion, decided to help Macht despite the huge risk.

And just like that she said that demons do not feel grief, even though grief for her friends is the only conceivable reason for her to actu like that.

>>286726739
Why do you want to redeem demons so badly?

>>286729587
Suicidal empathy, the same thing Frieren's demons rely on to hunt

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>>286729525
It's also possible she knew what's going to happen and had a backup plan. It's absolutely possible that she faked her death.

>>286727427
Sure, but if a prey species is going to argue with its predator to not eat it, it needs to bring better arguments to the table than
1. I don't want to be eaten.
I assure you, the predator already knows that.
2. I'll defend myself and you might be injured or killed.
The predator knows that too and is willing to take the risk in order to eat.
or
3. You just can't.
Not an argument.

>>286726739
The demons are a stand in for humans who eat meat and a general metaphor for how humans treat animals. Consider something like a Duck Call. That’s demonic technology.

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>>286726739
>they're just like us bro

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>>286729587
Zoomers are incapable of accepting that villains can be pure evil and not just misunderstood dindunuffin

>>286729748
Then good thing that this prey species can defend itself and send a murder squad at the predator as soon as it shows up. Why should a prey species empathize with a predator that wants it dead and refuses to, or straight up can't, give up on it's predator antics?

>>286729823
>>286729587
Are you unaware that bad writing might be the problem?

>>286729848
You have been spamming this thread for at least a few days posting the same shit and been told that you're a retard

>>286729884
There's an entire thread here of arguments.

>>286729910
And they're all retarded and as soon as they get disproved you cycle between them. You're either disingenous or trolling.

>>286729514
All three elves we saw so far spent 99% of their hilariously long lives doing nothing of value. Frieren went out of her way to do nothing with her talents for most of her life.
They just did one or two good deeds and then called it a day for the rest of recorded history.

>>286729944
>Disproved
Provide a single point in this thread where my arguments have been disproved.

>>286729959
I refuse to, you'd simply either ignore them, interpret them wrong or act utterly delusional like you did here >>286728101

>>286730010
No, provide a single example of me being disproved. I can walk you through every single argument.

>>286730049
I refuse to engage with your trolling.

>>286729766
>Consider something like a Duck Call. That’s demonic technology.
You're not wrong.
>>286728637
>and only engages in communication because she likes learning all she can about a victim before murdering them.
Unlike other demons, Solitar blatantly enjoys socializing. It must annoy the hell out of the other ones. But she wants to chat them up too. The humans die because she's paranoid, and like Frieren, believes in security through obscurity.

im pretty sure most of the demon posters are automated bots at this point.

>>286729848
Nothing wrong with fictional monsters being irredeemably evil. Even if they can do good things at times.

>>286730168
If they can do good things, then they can't be pure evil and shouldn't be treated as such then.

And how would having the antagonist faction not be treated as the antagonists be an improvement exactly? Especially when the protagonists bring the same stoic violence when facing off against human antagonists as well already?

>>286730230
It at least makes them more nuanced than cackling Saturday cartoon villains like Celestial Dragons/Holy Knights.

>>286726739
I hope you and your family meet a demon, anon

>>286730614
I would like to meet a demon, have you seen how cute they are?

>>286726739
It's an allegory of brown people. Now you understand right?

>>286726739
It's how the Japanese view anyone who isn't Japanese

>>286729323
Really is psychotic. Their fantasy is killing people without consequences and they just work back from their to justify it.

>>286726739
Read Blindsight and come back then. Demons are not sentient, they're instinctual predators that develop new survival strategies based on environmental feedback. More complex the prey, more skilled the predator. Demons have no aims other than to survive themselves and kill their prey, nothing in the show or manga contradicts this.

>>286729274
>Ants are not remotely intelligent on the level of human beings.
Ants are way more organized than most human societies.

There's little difference between how demons are regarded in Frieren and how elves are regarded in other Japanese series. Frieren could just as well be treated the same as the demons.

>>286730910
I heard ants have wars like humans do, it's insane.

Maybe not the anons here but i have the sneaking suspicion a lot of people who balk at the idea of demons=bad cannot separate fiction from reality.
If they allow a fictional race that is pure evil to exist in fiction they are afraid it gives credence to people making similar claims in real life.

ITT: Frieren replies to demons

Did people not watch/read the part where Himmel spared a demon thinking it has learnt it's lesson and it went on to kill people?

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how does demon sex work, these two seem like they were flirting

>>286731072
Yeah, it's the reason most of the people that find it a problem in the first place are mostly zoomer Twitter (or I guess bluesky now) tourists. I'd wager that they're also upset about lolicons.

>>286730880
Eh, I don't know about that, consider Rivale, how do you explain him if all demons care about is surviving and killing prey?

>>286731072
People probably just think having a murder fantasy like yours is fucking weird.

>>286731139
W-we don't talk about that chapter here.

>>286731139
The road to demon empathy and integration is paved with the blood of hundreds of thousands of innocent humans. Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, but it is worth it in the end when humans will get to eat authentic demon cuisine, listen to demon music, wear demon fashion, practice demon magic, and use demon slang.

>>286731261
I have no such thing.

Does anyone think it's a bit weird how genocide friendly the demons are

>>286726739
>why do you kill even if you can eat something else?
>why is that a reason for not to kill humans?
suicidal people think these monsters are still negotiable

>>286731485
>story written by humans jerking off at the idea of justified genocide

>>286731506
Demons are a lot like anons who refuse to become vegetarian is what you're saying then.

>>286727424
>absolutist
It is absolute that they want to eat people above all. So they all should e killed

So if demons can be genocided because of a few crimes should we kill or genocide groups of humans because of crimes as well

>>286726739
The little demon was obviously looking for his senpai approval and happy about it, there was no trickery behind that, I am supposed to still believe they don't have feelings?

>>286731680
You're being very disingenuous about the term "a few crimes".

>>286731680
humans take murder of other humans very seriously, to where even accidentally doing it to someone still gets you serious punishment.
Whereas d*mons treat murder as a normal thing.
Therefor you're making a false-equivalence.

>>286727424
you're not wrong, but there's still zero reason to try and co-exist reddit-style. If the demons decided to organise and become somewhat civilised, they'd simply enslave the entire human race and treat them like livestock, you cannot co-exist with a species of humanoids that salivate at the thought of EATING you.

All of this is valid observation, except for the part where most of the changes are probably intention solely for the sake of giving more character to the villains to add more flavour to the story. One-note boogeyman villains rarely work more than once. And such villains have already been purged early in the season via the violent beasts in the northern forests.

>>286731776
Aren't humans currently genociding each other? On that note did Frieren ever give any opinion on how Fern family got slaughtered by other humans? And now that I think about it, why does Fern even hate demons to begin with, shouldn't her animosity be over other humans?

>>286731829
And yet you fetishize killing humans

I always thought the idea , that all sentience for the demons , is them either becoming more pure over whatever magic standing creates them ,and as such them being a vessel for that.

Or them becoming more material , more humanlike overtime.

So demons can and might be, becoming alive in that traditional sence , but thier true nature was one of being the perfect enebtween spiritual magic macking a person. Or a material world making a person.

No one thinks the magical clones , mages use are people for example.
Demons are kind of like those magical clones , is just the inanimete can create the animet given enough time.

>>286732245
Demons are not humans, they're monsters that want nothing more than eating humans. Killing them is a service to other humans.

>>286731680
Least disingenous d*mon defender

>>286732365
Rats carry diseases and cannot coexist with humans, but that's different from getting fucking excited at the idea of torturing a live rat and enjoying seeing it die.

Are demons even alive? They turn to ash or whatever right? Like the dragon did. If I kill a person in that setting they don't do that. If you kill an animal in that setting they don't do that. If you cut down a plant they don't do that. Only magic constructs do it.

Are demons even living things?

>>286732481
Rats are not spreading disease deliberately so your comparison is retarded in the first place, and I never suggested that we should torture demons for fun (nice projection tough), in fact they should be exterminated quickly and efficently.

>>286732581
>I never suggested that we should torture demons for fun

That's why the story is written though isn't it? I know better with the Japanese, they literally get off on sexual sadism, raping and killing.

>>286732686
You're projecting extremely hard here dude

>>286732686
I think I'm starting to see a fundamental problem here.

>>286727843
I haven't seen a single interaction I can't replicate with Gemini or Claude. Current generation models if embodied could absolutely do that while still path-seeking your breakdown into component molecules.

>>286732686
Are you perhaps SEA or Corean?

>>286731151
Solitar flirts with everyone, that's just how she interacts with others. She's probably fucked thousands of demons and a few humans over the centuries and birthed more than a few little bastards.

argumentative autists are demons
>>286732481
>never had a pet rat
Those people in season one tried to have a pet demon.
>>286730049
There is nothing there for you to answer with "no".
You are a demon and you're trying to sharpen your language skills to eat more people. I'm gonna hide my mana even harder so i can snipe you from cover and you'll never know it.

you disliking the show and being as stupid as you are is reinforcing

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>>286728101
tdd

"B-but did the children Epstein ate have a good reason to not be eaten? Epstein is a being with sentience and self awareness. Why didn't the children reason with him? Why is no reason given for why he wouldn't change his mind? All we do is persecute him unfairly. Why do we take for granted that the children shouldn't be eaten?"

>>286733402
So you admit you're just a bigot and want to exterminate real world groups of people and this anime is your method for normalizing that desire cool cool cool.

>>Anonymous these are fantastical beings, they only need to drink water once a year
>but I'd be thirsty if I didn't drink, I think they're thirsty
>look it looks like they're thirsty
>this is how I'd act if I was thirsty they must be thirsty
>B-B-B-BUT I'D BE THRISTY
Literal room temperature IQ abstract thinking.

>>286733454
Why do you take for granted that extermination of certain groups shouldn't take place? Hunt: You don't have a good reason.
"B-but you just shouldn't okay!"

>>286726739
Just like demons in real life, they choose to do evil. This makes you uncomfortable because you choose to do evil as well and you know judgement is coming.

>>286732686
>they literally get off on sexual sadism, raping and killing.
How do you know?

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>>286733778
Correct, murder is inherently wrong.

>>286733985
Said the bunny to the wolf.

>>286730635
I hope you meet a demon too, anon

>>286731195
An apex predator who has developed a taste for specific type of prey and discourages competition by disparaging other demons so they won't get in his way when he hunts. Even cats play with their food.

>>286733985
Leaving aside that murder is a legal term which doesn't apply to wars and several other examples of premeditated killings and is different depending on the legal system defining it,
what should be done with murderers who commit this inherent wrong
and where in the story did an innocent demon, who dindu nuffin, get killed by Frieren et al?
Pretty sure every demon she put down has been a heinous murderer themselves, and in most cases she's commissioned by some legal entity to enact justice on them

Reminder that if you're against demons you're a disgusting antisemite and should be locked up in jail.

>>286734175
>Leaving aside that murder is a legal term
you shouldn't, because that's the important distinction.
Humanity formed an entire societal framework around defining such a thing to designate it as such, because the practice uproots the stability of tribes and villages

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>>286734175
Humans know better and can choose to not kill. Therefore, they should be pacifist and not kill demons who don't know better and are just following their nature. A human or elf killing 1 demon is worse than 1 demon killing every human. If humans are strong and righteous then they should exist without killing demons, they are strong enough to kill them so why not strong enough to exist without killing them?

Just because its hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, especially when its the right thing to do.

>>286734483
So which law protects demons and makes killing them murder?
If village stability and continuity is "inherently ' desirable then so is killing demons.

>>286728661
Because their explanation for why demons are pure evil is retarded and lacks consistency. I can accept Tolkein orcs being pure evil, they were all created by Tolkein's version of Satan and thus inherently share his corruption like biblical demons. Here they attempt a half-assed biological explanation and it simply doesn't work because that's not how predation really works. They're basically indistinguishable to humans except they're all absolute sociopaths with no exception because that's what the author says.

>>286734868
you sound extremelly autistic

>>286726739
Sounds like you would get eaten by a demon

>>286734909
Why is it that autism just means basic critical thinking skills nowadays?

>>286735041
sorry anon but your literacy is very bad, i really recomend you to get therapy or read a book about how to deal with being sexually abused

>>286734909
Wanting consistent writing isn't autism. It would be one thing if this was some inconsequential detail to hyperfocus on but it's one of the central pillars of the series' world building. Making an entire sapient race evil based on biological determinism is retarded and the entire series is spent going "it just is okay" instead of trying to actually convince people of this.

>>286735075
>this fucking retard again
I recognize your posts all over the board. Fuck off.

>>286726739
>sentience, self awareness, intelligence and self control to change their beliefs and co-exist
>its just their nature
Your sample size for life forms with those characteristics that are incapable of overcoming their nature, even when their nature is dangerous and detrimental to their well-being is non zero (think serial killers and pedophiles). Furthermore, your sample is biased to only contain humans. Open your mind, and accept that not killing humans is extremely abnormal for demons.

>>286734868
How does the show hold up if you ignore this incongruity?

>>286735187
Macht didn't kill anyone for about 50 years and it was simple as just him going
>"Meh, lemme just not kill people see what happens."

>>286734769
We are reaching levels of deliberate obtuseness previously thought not possible.

>>286735223
Why would I ignore bad writing for something so major? This is basically saying "just turn off your brain bro" as a response for someone saying they don't like schlock.

>>286735226
The exception proves the rule.

Show me the human who trusted a demon and wasn't killed by it.

>>286735299
The fact that there's an exception at all shows that the demons are capable of doing this.

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>>286735275
Do you have a rebuttal? Or will you accept that you are choosing violence when you could be allowing peace to happen?

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>>286735359
If that were true, then it also shows that you are so susceptible to sissy brainwash that you might eventually get convinced to take it up the ass.

>>286734769
>Humans know better and can choose to not kill.
In Frieren? Has it ever been demonstrated that the humans or elves in Frieren know better than to kill demons, and could choose not to?
As far as real humans, as much as they know not to kill and can justify it, they also know to kill and can justify it.
If you think all humans or humanity generally "knows" not to kill humans or anything else, you have an observation problem as much as a logic problem.

>Therefore, they should be pacifist and not kill demons
Your if/then logic is "if humans can choose not to kill (because of "knowing better") then they should choose not to kill"
If humans can choose to kill, then they should choose to kill.
This is an equally valid assertion.


>who don't know better and are just following their nature.
Humans are not outside of nature, in Frieren or otherwise. It's funny to simultaneously argue for human exceptionalism (the only creatures outside of nature) and also somehow constrained by nature (we shouldn't affect it)
Zero logical consistency

>A human or elf killing 1 demon is worse than 1 demon killing every human.
You just make strings of unrelated assertions as if they follow from each other. Make an argument lazy ass

>If humans are strong
Humans are strong and weak, in Frieren and in real life
>and righteous
Humans are both righteous and wicked, in Frieren and real life
>then they should exist without killing demons,
Another one of your "should"s. Another non sequitur
>they are strong enough to kill them so why not strong enough to exist without killing them?
They're weak enough to be killed by them and therefore weak enough to want to kill them all.
>Just because its hard doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, especially when its the right thing to do.
The right thing to do in that story is to kill demons because they're literally all evil and want to eat humans.

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why do leftoids turn every fictional villain into an allegory for black people?

>these evil orcs that rape and pillage? they're BLACKPIPO, change this racist story now!
>these evil demons that rape and pillage? they're BLACKPIPO, change this racist story now!
>these evil titans that rape and pillage? they're BLACKPIPO, change this racist story now!
>these terraformers that rape and pillage? they're BLACKPIPO, change this racist story now!

>>286734813
>So which law protects demons and makes killing them murder?
why would humanity define a law for intelligent entities that don't recognize or support the very system?

>>286735685
So it isn't murder?
So what's the problem? You said you didn't like murder.

>>286735359
You literally have a sample size of one demon, who, for less than 1% of his life, "decided" not to kill humans, and are trying to extrapolate this as a rebuttal to all the evidence that demons cannot overcome their nature. How do you know that macht actually chose not to kill humans? How do you know he wasn't suffering from some kind of demon mental disorder?

>>286735704
Are you intentionally being dense or do you really not understand the fundamental issue?

>>286735717
That little girl decided not to kill people for a long time before deciding to do it too. They have all the self control over their own actions, and yet the series tries to make it seem as though they're just animals that can't stop themselves.

>>286735767
The issue is that you have an internally and externally inconsistent vegan moral system where all humans getting killed by lions is fine but a single human killing a single cow is evil, and somehow humans are both outside of nature and have to be restrained by (your conception of) it.

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>>286734769
>A human or elf killing 1 demon is worse than 1 demon killing every human.

>>286735775
Again, you're assuming that she decided not to kill, and then decided to kill. If she was really capable of making that decision, wouldn't it have made more sense for her to at least wait until the party of heroes had left the village? This actually shows that she's incapable of overcoming her nature. You just hoisted yourself on your own petard.

>>286735767
>Murder is le bad!
>Murder is a legal term but I can put that aside to address your poi...
>No! We must never forget that murder is a legal term
>Okay then what's the issue? They aren't murdering anyone.
>Crying noises
You literally trapped yourself, idiot.

>>286735871
>wouldn't it have made more sense for her to at least wait until the party of heroes had left the village?
This is the result of bad writing. They have all the intelligence and self control as portrayed to simply not kill people if they don't want to. Not even Macht solves this though. He was motivated by non-predatory desires to feel specific emotions (malice and guilt) but his methodology to artificially induce them was doomed from the start in a way that wouldn’t have worked even for humans. The very fact at all that he was motivated to achieve a human emotion even if it ultimately failed is even further proof that they’re biologically capable of choosing coexistence.

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>>286735934
>Now he blames the writing for why demons don't act the way they do in his head cannon
She's not gonna let you hit, bro

>>286734769
>>286735406
Every human is constantly killing bacteria with their immune system, bacteria that have no choice in the matter but to kill their host, its in their nature.

Therefore we should all kill ourselves to stop the constant killing of bacteria in our body.

What is stopping me from grabbing a demon child from the wilds and train it to be a companion, like a dog or something?

>>286736017
>>286736009
>All that yapping about macht
Sounds like a demon mental disorder. Again
>Sample size of one
>Exception proves the rule
>You're assuming his motivation
>Less than 1% of his life
Normal people can't be convinced by any of this. And stop blaming the writing.

Help me understand the moral system you're using to judge this question:
1. Are humans and demons held to the same moral standards, or different ones? If different, why?
2. Is self defense moral or immoral? Does a demon have a right to defend itself against a human? Does a human have a right to defend itself against a demon?

>>286736057
No bro the biology would prevent it even if there are numerous instances of apex predators being tamed and rendered docile.

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>>286726739
>entire story revolves around the frog and scorpion fable
>for some reason the concept of sentient beings having zero empathy and self control is too hard to understand
Is this show too high iq?

>>286736057
Their non-existence

>>286736097
>Yapping
You mean providing an argument that succinctly disproves the retarded writing in Frieren.
>Sample size of one
Literally every single demon in the show is portrayed with the same level of self-control that Macht does. There is never anything showing that there's this insatiable urge inside of demons that makes them want to kill people. It is always portrayed as a conscious choice they choose to make.

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The demons in Frieren are just shitty writing. Compare it to something similar written by someone that actually cares about believable world-building and consistent writing and it's like night and day.

>>286736057
Nothing except that someday it might just arbitrarily decide to kill you. Happens to people who raise exotic animals (or pitbulls) from time to time.

>>286735846
Laws are put in place to protect the participants and any entities they deem in need that can't protect themselves
Demons are intelligent and capable enough to both
1. communicate their needs
2. protect themselves
Therefor, they do not qualify for a protected species (Animal/plant). And can choose to willingly participate in a society or not.
The issue arises when
1. They INTELLIGENTLY CHOOSE TO NOT PARTICIPATE IN OUR SOCIETY
2. ACTIVELY HARM IT
3. SEEK NO LEGITIMATE PEACE
So, as a society, WHY should we enact laws to deem them as valuable as humans?

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>>286726739

It seems to me you have been successfully bamboozled. Demons are beasts that eat humans. They are capable of human speech to deceive humans and eat them but are unable to truly sympathize with humans. You just feel inclined to think they are capable communicating because, as magical creatures, they have evolved in a way that resemble humans, that makes you think humans and demons are not so different. Well, they are, and no you can´t communicate with them, and yes, they are dangerous and should be purged with extreme prejudice.

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>>286736110
>We taught a lion to eat tofu!

>>286726739
Why do you eat meat instead of just "cohabiting" with cows, dumbass?

>>286736262
We can't communicate with cows and they show no signs of higher thought processes.

>>286736262
I don't think he eats meat. This is all just an argument for veganism. This sped's obsession with this topic for months on end makes perfect sense when you apply that context and change demons to cows in every argument they make.

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>>286726739
Oh look, it's the weekly Frieren demon thread where everyone rehashes the exact same arguments and then we all come back next week to pretend we didn't have this exact same conversation last week.

>>286736187
>Laws are put in place to protect the participants and any entities they deem in need that can't protect themselves
Nah laws are made to benefit Israel in some way
>Demons are intelligent and capable enough to both
Getting murdered by Frieren isn't that intelligent.
>2. protect themselves
Not from Frieren
>Therefor, they do not qualify for a protected species (Animal/plant). And can choose to willingly participate in a society or not.
Not if Frieren is around they can't
>The issue arises when
>1. They INTELLIGENTLY CHOOSE TO NOT PARTICIPATE IN OUR SOCIETY
>2. ACTIVELY HARM IT
>3. SEEK NO LEGITIMATE PEACE
>So, as a society, WHY should we enact laws to deem them as valuable as humans?
The issue arises when demons bring their pansy asses around Frieren

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>>286735871
>You just hoisted yourself on your own petard.

>>286736251
You can tame a carnivore apex predator without trying to remove their biological need to consume meat. There is no biological need for demons in Frieren to eat humans, it's meant to be a niche they evolved from which doesn't really make sense when they are clearly shown to be intelligent now and there are vastly easier, more efficient prey so they just continue to hunt humans because "muh biology". This is why trying to create morality from biological determinism fictional or otherwise is retarded.

>>286736448
Have you published anything anon? You sound really wise and like you think about this stuff a lot, I bet you'd make a great author and outsell Frieren <3

>>286726739
This is already how humans work in real life, it's called genetics.
Demon just means undesirable human.

>>286726739
They have black souls. They are evil

>>286736171
>Literally every single demon in the show is portrayed with the same level of self-control that Macht does.
Except, of course, for the little girl demon you brought up
>It is always portrayed as a conscious choice they choose to make.
Sample size of 99% shows that demons are evil.

>>286736642
>Except, of course, for the little girl demon you brought up
She had the conscious choice to do it. Nothing says otherwise.
>Sample size of 99% shows that demons are evil.
So if they're not 100% evil and they have the ability to choose not to be, then they can't be pure evil.

>>286736670
>pure evil
You've been reading too many children's stories.

>>286736670
>then they can't be pure evil.
The writing has never once used the term "pure evil".

>>286736670
The Nazis had the ability to choose not to be evil, therefore they can't be pure evil. So why don't you just choose pacifism and coexistence with the Nazis?

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>>286727424

>>286736670
If the two possibilities were
1. Demons can not be good, they are biologically/magically/narratively coded to be evil
Or
2. Demons have the ability to reason and can be good or evil, but all of them except briefly a single one of them, decided to be evil

Option 2 is more damning and worse.
You actually made this argument earlier by appealing to their "nature" excusing their actions.
But in either case, evil by design or evil by choice, the correct moral choice is *LITERALLY BY DEFINITION* to oppose them.

>>286736670
>She had the conscious choice to do it. Nothing says otherwise.
Then how do you explain her choice to kill while the party of heroes was still in the village?

>>286736801
>Just coexist with the good guys
I don't see an issue with that.

>>286736491
I don't need to be a cook to know when a dish I'm served doesn't taste good.

>>286736774
That's literally what Frieren fans pride the story on being. Simple and black and white when it comes to the demons.
>>286736781
Frieren wants to genocide them all. That's not justifiable unless they're 100% pure evil.
>>286736801
Yes. That's why we didn't just kill every single Nazi once they surrendered.
>>286736847
To be pure evil means you can’t ever be good. To have intelligence, morality, emotion, and the free will that comes with that means being able to choose to be good. Demons can still choose to be evil (many do), but the entire species cannot be treated as evil if they have a choice.

>>286736801
>The Nazis had the ability to choose not to be evil, therefore they can't be pure evil.
They weren't and there were many individuals that didn't agree with the party leadership

>>286731054
Not against the same colony. And we are back at the original point.

Being sentient, social, empathic towards yoir own kind or whatever does not prevent a species from being psychotic to another. The whole point of demons is that they have their brains wired to deceive and kill.

>>286737045
saying you can't understand complicated things isn't the own you think it is, and dumbing things down to your level of understanding does nothing but embarrass yourself.

>>286737137
What have I not understood? Or are you just mad that I'm not uncritically agreeing with your retarded show?

>Sample size of one
>Blames the writing when he can't come up with an argument
It's over for demon-lovers

>>286737045
>Yes. That's why we didn't just kill every single Nazi once they surrendered.
>Do you have a rebuttal? Or will you accept that you are choosing violence when you could be allowing peace to happen?
>Therefore, they should be pacifist and not kill demons
Apparently we shouldn't have killed any Nazis by your previous statements.

>>286737126
Unless there's some sort of spiritual aspect to it (which as far as we know there isn't since they've exclusively used biological terms to describe their nature) then making an entire species like that is retarded as it is not reflective of nature. Even among animals that lack the ability to reason there is more variance.

>>286737159
The entirety of philosophy and morality basically. Your argument presupposes an ontological framework, which is the most childish kind possible. It's not the kind of thing worth taking seriously.

>>286737216
Nobody said that killing someone who's actively a threat to you is unjustified. What isn't is genociding all of them, even the one's that aren't currently a threat.
>>286737241
>The entirety of philosophy and morality basically. Your argument presupposes an ontological framework, which is the most childish kind possible
What is up with Frieren fans and just insulting people for making arguments instead of just responding to and refuting them?

>>286737289
>I can't understand your refutation
This isn't a convincing argument anon. Are you upset that I used words you didn't understand?

>wanting demons to be more complex than a evil Boogeyman
We're here to explore Frieren's character, not morality. From a good writing perspective, it doesn't make sense to make demons something more complex than pure evil personified. Suppose that you're right. What does that do for Frieren's character? Making demons anything more than what they are would simply be bad writing.

>>286737241
>The entirety of philosophy and morality basically.
You says this while defending a series that utilizes one of the most retarded takes on philosophy and morality.

>>286737335
Then why have an entire arc trying to explain them?

>>286736847
>>286737231
Frieren uses the Aristotelian view on moral. You're immoral if you lack virtue and possess vice. The demons fall to evil due to not adopting virtue, they're p-zombies if instead of a consciousness they were deprived of Platonic goodness.

>>286737335
I guess that makes macht bad writing

>>286737353
>I think reality is retarded

>>286737354
>>286737365
Bad writing

>>286737329
You're just pretending I don't understand what you're saying so you don't have to respond to the substance of what I've said, and it's pathetic how obvious that is.

>>286737335
They already made them more than just a personification of evil with the hints of complex personality we get along the way. Frieren does not know everything. When she says demons are pure evil and only appear to have hints of something resembling humanity to deceive humans, she's speaking from her experience which is limited.

>>286736448
They continue to hunt humans because there's not much reason not to. 90% of humans are hilariously weak and the consequences for attacking them rarely manifest. Younger demons just plain don't know better and can't imagine humans being a threat at all and the older demons that are still alive have likely calculated how strong of a response they'll get.
What's the alternative after all? You can't integrate with humans because you'll eventually slip up and piss them off over some bullshit emotional nuance that you don't even comprehend. So all you can do is live alone in the wilderness forever. Maybe you can go find some sympathetic demons and make some kind of peaceful demon monastery and pray that some humans don't find it and get the wrong idea.
There's a reason Macht was the only one to do it.

>>286737335
I'm fine with evil boogeyman characters, I've brought up Tolkien orcs as being fine with them. The main problem with Frieren is that is puts a spotlight on the nature of demons but utilizes retarded writing to explain them instead of going with the simple "they're evil because it's fantasy and evil exists as an objective ontological force in this setting." It's getting entirely lost in the weeds trying to push this biological determinism bullshit.

>>286737391
It doesn't match reality which is why it's retarded. It's attempting to use reality to explain fantasy without understanding reality.

>>286731072
Or just that the text itself hints that demons are more than just pure evil?

>>286737415
Okay, explain my position and what I just said and why I said it then. I already know you can't but I don't mind playing along.

>>286737445
>Frieren has limited experience
She's a wise 1000+ year old elf that actually lives in the universe we're talking about and interacts with demons regularly. What more experience could anyone have?

>>286737507
Your position is that you're a retard who can't refute my argument.

>>286737542
Nope, go ahead and try again. You can start with the part about how your argument presupposes an ontological framework and what that means.

>>286736293
So as long as they're significantly beneath us, it's ok to farm and eat them? I think you've got your answer.

>>286737488
>It's getting entirely lost in the weeds trying to push this biological determinism bullshit.
As an audience, we actually need this. Otherwise, the sexy demon fan service will confuse us.

>>286737585
>IT'S JUST THE SAME
>except for these details that makes these two things entirely different
apples and oranges

>>286737582
Your position is that you're a retard who can't refute my argument.

>>286737488
>biological determinism bullshit.
So your position is that your brain does not operate according to the laws of physics?

>>286737488
It doesn't get lost in the weeds. It pretty consistently hammers home "They're sociopaths who eat people, don't fall for their tricks". The Macht arc was basically the author saying "This is what happens even if they're trying their best, just in case they managed to trick you despite everything we've told you". You can see why that message is necessary since we have these weekly threads.

>>286737593
This is why they should have stuck to the "they're evil because they're evil" explanation instead of trying to go for something that more convoluted and less narratively cohesive.