>dude, shingeki no kyojin is great! it's like none other!>it's shit>dude, jujutsu kaisen is great! it's like none other!>it's shit>dude, boku no hero academia is great! it's like none other!>it's shit>dude, kimetsu no yaiba is great! it's like none other!>it's shit>dude, chainsaw man is great! it's like none other!>it's shitIt's funny how as the years goes by and there's an oversaturation of shounenshit, and Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto and Bleach are still better than whatever slop is churned out today. Dragon Ball is 40, One Piece is almost 30, Naruto is 25 and Bleach is almost 24 but they managed to outlive every title from their era and you can bet they will also outlive the mediocre zoomer shounen era.
YYH clears
>>287255560Replace Bleach with Gintama
>>287255560>Bleach is almost 24It turned 24 last year faggot
The thing about them is that they paved the way for the slop of today, in terms of the ideas presented and power systems establishedWhether this is a good or bad thing is up to you to decide but it makes the slop of today seem less original as a result
>>287255560>Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto and Bleachlol just lol at shounenfags
What's on the Mount Rushmore of "posted it again"?
>>287255560>bleachbro thinks he's part of the team
>>287255560>Ring ni Kakero>Hokuto no Ken>Saint Seiya>Dragon BallThose created the basic formula everybody still use to this day
>>287255743Not when the pasta was created
>>287255560>outliveThats also the fucking problem>Dragon Ball turning into compost faster than Toriyama's corpse>Bleach having a pitiful revival and dying again>Naruto turning into an aBORTion>One Piece slowing down in sales every year and holding shounen backIf all of them actually fucking died the industry might have a chance to move the fuck on.
>>287255560Where's kinnikuman!?
>>287255622/thread
>>287255560>SnK the least shounen out of all of these, it is its own thing>JJK its fine, but also a poor man's HxH>BNHcan be hype and has nice action, good contender for spiritual successor>Kimetsudidn't see it, has great animation but looks like the biggest case of a 7/10 show possible>Chainsaw manhas great action and hooking narrative, but its also a heavy seinen when Fujimoto feels like it, not enough variety of villains and (lasting) supporting cast
>>287255560>Kinnikuman>Hokuto no Ken>Dragonball>Hajime no Ippo?JoJo comes from HnK, Bleach/Naruto (since they've been more inspirational than OP) come from DB, so I don't know what would be a fourth shonen that's been as influential. Bleach would be the closest, but surely sports nekketsu has something that's the equivalent of DB, right?
>>287255560Replace Ichigo and Naruto with Jotaro and Kenshiro
>>287258504All shonen is down stream of devilman.
>>287258504>JoJo comes from HnKonly the first 3 parts.
>>287258504>Bleach/Naruto (since they've been more inspirational than OP)This is because that OP is so unique to its setting, power building and world building that there's no way to actually make a series influenced from it without straight up copying it. Which the Japanese are not going to do because of their honor system. Naruto, Bleach etc have generic settings, structures and characters that make it easy to put in your work.
whats the modern rushmore look like?>Demon Slayer>Chainsaw Man>JJK>???
>>287259137Define "modern" but the newest 4 manga to hit 100 million copies sold were:Demon slayerAttack on titanJujutsu Kaisen My Hero Academia
>>287259004Id say Toriko feels closest to replicating One Piece. Really, the problem/obstacle that's next to impossible for modern shounen series to clear due to the current landscape of SJW, is that you need lots of time and worldbuilding to replicate One Piece. As a new shounen, you have to hit the ground running and hit high points to attract readers, otherwise if you take too long with planting the seeds for later developments then you'll likely get axed before they bear fruit.
>>287259989Oh wait, I forgot about Fairy Tail, that was kinda close to being One Piece in vibes with a group of characters going on adventures on a magical setting. Too bad author overdid it with the "friendship" shit that no one really took the series that seriously anymore.
>>287255560Soul eater (manga,not the butchered version that is the anime) was peak shounen.
>>287255560I truly think Goku is in the same tier of being recognizable as Superman.
>>287255560Simple facts.
>Toriko>Agravity Boys>Undead Unluck>Death Notethere you go, ezpz
>>287260050that and it was just generally subpar next to One Piece anyway
>>287256611>>One Piece slowing down in sales every year and holding shounen backManga sales are irrelevant to One Piece at the level it's at right now. One Piece as a franchise is bigger than the manga itself, and sustains itself from elsewhere. That is: toys (only behind DB and Gundam), the TCG (which is outselling YGO and Pokémon), the live action show (which cost $200 million to produce), etc. Sales might be important to your favorite series, because it's smaller and irrelevant, but for One Piece, manga sales are peanuts.
astro boy, goku, doraemon, zaku
this is just popular shit, naruto is trash
>>287255560CHADgon CHAD.....
>>287255560Goku, Bejita, Gohan, Piccolo are more popular than Naruto and Bleach
>>287256104Remove Saint Seiya for Kinnikuman and this is accurate.
>>287255560You forgot one.
>>287255560>Retards don't know what a Mt. Rushmore is supposed to beIt's meant to represent foundational influences, not just big things. Goku is the only one who should be up there. Otherwise it should be shit like Astroboy, Fist of the North Star, Space Battleship Yamato, Lupin III, etc. You know, things with actual genre defining history.
>>287259004>that there's no way to actually make a series influenced from it without straight up copying itYou're making Mashima-sensei cry
>>287255560Conan more popular than Bleach and Naruto.
>>287255560you're supposed to spell it "shonen" for maximum troll factor and so it gets caught by my filter
The correct answer is:>Kid Goku/Arale>Kenshirou>Seiya>Suguru or Jotaro/Josuke
>>287258732It still actively references HnK all the time, hell, part 6 has Ken and Raoh straight up cameo in the plot.
>>287255560OP should be thrown off of Mount Rushmore
>>287255560yeah no modern shonen comes close to cultural relevancy of big three. maybe JJK and it's only close to Bleach (weakest of big 3)
>>287255560>DB>HnK>Kinnikuman>Saint Seiya (or swap for another Masamo series like Ring no Kakero)This pretty much covers everything.
>>287255560>No Yotsubashit Rushmore.
>>287265318>part 6 has Ken and Raoh straight up cameo in the plot.When?
>>287265466I'd consider dropping Saint Seiya for Kochikame. Gag/occupational comedy manga don't have the sheer grip on magazines they used to but Ryo's earned his pound of flesh
>>287256611>One Piece slowing down in sales every year and holding shounen backOda doesn't even care about Manga sales anymore himself. He is focused on online, anime, and live action. Case and fucking point, he drew the reveal for the final villain and literal devil of the world between two pages.
>>287255560Dragon Ball, HxH, Jojo's, FMA.
>>287263885Saint Seiya brought the fujos in mass to WSJ and shifted the shounen designs from huge muscular guys to pretty boys. Only for that it deserves its spot on the Mount Rushmore of shounen
>>287268938The last 3-4 years he wasn't doing so well he is actually in a dangerous position. Hope he bounces back but he definitly needs to regroup.
>>287255560100% correct.
>>287256611Bortuo will never be canon regardless of what anybody says. Naruto ended when Naruto's name stopped being in the title.
>>287255560Saint Seiya or Ring ni kakeroKyojin no HoshiHarenchi GakuenHokuto no KenProbably missing some shitty gag manga that only japanese boomers know.
>>287260882>>287265895It might not matter for Oda but it does for WSJ. It's their only remaining golden goose and they will go out of their way to astroturf it as long as they don't have a succesor or a companion ip to match OP which is retarded, unrealistic, delusional and dragging down the industry like a bubble waiting to pop.
>>287255560Replace either Ichigo with Tanjiro or Goku with Gon.
>>287255560>BleachUndeserved
>>287255560Replace Naruto and Wanpiss with HnK and Makibao.
>>287255560Actual red pill:>first big twoDragon Ball and JoJo>second big twoOne Piece and Naruto>third big twoDemon Slayer and Jujutsu Kaisen
>>287269994>top rowBig Four by sales and impact of all time>bottom rowBig Four by sales and impact from around 2000
Saint Seiya>Yu Yu Hakusho> Bleach> JJK
>>287270337Replace Rangiku with Yoruchi
>>287255560>It's funny how as the years goes by and there's an oversaturation of shounenshit, and Dragon Ball, One Piece, Naruto and Bleach are still better than whatever slop is churned out todayTrue but only to a point. Naruto got really bad after pain and One Piece turned to shit after the time skip. Should have just stopped in 2010
>>287270924Lmao even
>>287255560That's because modern shonen often explode because of anime production quality and social media virality. Shows like JJK, CSM and KNY trend globally overnight thanks to a factor of>viral clips>TikTok edits>seasonal anime hype>streaming accessibilityBut hype driven by moment to moment spectacle fades fast once the anime season ends. Older shows didn't rely on viral moments, they relied on years of weekly exposure. DBZ, Naruto, Bleach and OP had hundreds of episodes and constant TV presence. They also came out pre-social media era so they had tike to accumulate cultural impact. Basically, they became background culture, not just seasonal hype.Also, the simple boring truth is just that the internet moves on very fast. Back in the 2000s, fans had fewer franchises competing for attention. Today audiences juggle:>anime>games>streaming>TikTok>VTubersSo fandoms rotate faster. A show can be the biggest thing on earth for 6 months and then vanish from the public consciousness.
>>287265750during Bohemian Rhapsody there is a panel that talks about how Kenshiro and Raoh destroyed large parts of Tokyo with their fight
>>287269394They probably gets royalties and a cut in some deals anon, theres a reason WSJ has Luffy as their face 24/7 and they dont give a shit if a volume sells 1m or 1.5m
>>287255560Ichigo does not belong there. Dude is barely a character after the first arc.
>>287272423Commercial success =/= impactA franchise can generate a substantial amount of money and have no impact, it happens all the time Spirited Away made way less money than both Demon Slayer movies and it still inspires. I don't think anyone talks about those Demon Slayer movies anymore outside the fans
>>287264790Naruto was one of the main inspirations behind both MHA and JJK.
>>287255586lolThere's a reason no newgens go back to read/watch YYH but everyone does it for DBYour shit is irrelevant and lame and once you die nobody will care while DB will pass on from generation to generation
>>287260882>>287265895>>287269394One piece tcg sales have exploded so hard that it sold around 30b+ yen just last year. This alone dwarfs anything the manga could offer even it sold 50m+ copies a year. And this doesnt count merch or other shit. Dragon Ball and One Piece have completely transcended manga sales and all that shit. They are multi billion dollar IPs mate
>>287255560I'd say SnK is Bleach tier. The characters are the weakest part but other than that Bleach tierKnY is Kenshin tier. Not quite up there with the big3 but still solidJJK, MHA, CSM are Katekyou Hitman Reborn tier, just random shonen sloppa, dime a dozen every generation
>>287272568You know what it takes for a movie to be high-grossing? People watching it. And we're talking about both of the two highest-grossing movies in Japanese history. If that's not impact, then nothing is.
>>287273049Are you pretending to be retarded? Did Doraemon: Nobita's Chronicle of the Moon Exploration have a bigger impact on anime than My Neighbor Totoro? Because it grossed more.
>>287261579Damn, DB is DIMES!!
>>287263885SS is the blueprint of YYH and Bleach and the fujo shounen industry.>>287256104Captain Tsubasa deserves a mention.>>287258616Go Nagai in general.
>>287273235>impact on animeDishonest use of the word. There is no such thing as "impact on anime". Anime doesn't exist in such a way that impact applies to it. You're talking about influence, which I never did.
>>287272568This is true. A franchise can make tons of money while having surprisingly little lasting impact. It sounds paradoxical, but it happens more often than people think and it usually happens when a franchise is built to maximize consumption rather than meaning, novelty, or artistic identity.Some franchises are just engineered to be broadly appealing rather than memorable. They can succeed financially due to distribution power, marketing, and brand momentum. And a lot of them also use familiar tropes, safe storytelling, predictable characters and market-tested formulas. This makes them easy to watch and easy to sell, but they rarely create moments that stick in people's minds or influence other creators. You can just compare Avatar with Star Wars for comparison. One made more money but has surprisingly little day to day cultural footprint. The other changed storytelling, merchandising, and fandom culture.Also, cultural impact requires friction and risk. Works that shape culture usually have at least one of these:>a distinct voice>a new idea>a strong emotional identity>quotable dialogue>aesthetic innovation>controversial themesFranchises optimized for mass markets often avoid risks, which ironically reduces long-term impact. Demon Slayer played it safe throughout its run; good guys are good, bad guys are bad, they each get their little tragic sob backstory for a few moments before the story moves onto the next bad guy and people moves on with their life. Nothing really lingers in Demon Slayer.
>>287273460>You're talking about influence, which I never did.What did you think the word "impact" means exactly, dumbass
>>287273460Yeah, there is. This is semantic dodging. Of course impact exists. You could call it influence, industry impact, cultural impact, aesthetic influence, whatever. But pretending the concept doesn’t exist is just you doing mental gymnastics. By that logic you couldn't say NGE impacted anime, DB shaped shonen, Akira influenced cyberpunk and Sailor Moon shaped magical girl anime.You tried to say because people watched it and it made money, it had impact which is just silly. Revenue mainly tells you how many people bought tickets/subscriptions/ merch. How effective the marketing and distribution were. How well the franchise fits into existing corporate ecosystems. It doesn't measure whether people think about it later, if they'll quote it or analyze it. A movie can sell millions of tickets simply because it's part of a huge brand, has massive marketing, is the biggest release that month and is algorithmically recommended everywhere. People watch it then move on immediately.
>dragon ball yes>narutomaybe>wan piss, bleachno
>>287274323One Piece is definitely there too. It's so synonymous with shonen that One Piece is one of the first thing that crosses people's minds when they think of shonen.
>>2872740402 is fake and gay. 1 is the actual definition of the word.
>>287274460So you're just pretending to be retarded, got it
If your shounen is only capable of producing shitty 13 episodes courses every 2 year then it's shit. I am sorry, but that's how it is. Chad Big 3 literally made their own fanfic bullshit just to keep it running, every week for years. That's popularity.
>>287274323>wan piss>noIts literally the most sold WSJ manga of all time. You can cope all you want but it mogs every single thing that ever made it out of WSJ
>>287274442One Piece has had pretty much no cultural impact or influence though. Bleach and Naruto have both been huge sources of inspiration for later battle shonen, but the same cannot be said for One Piece.
I think it is important to make a distinction between the demographic of shonen and the "genre" of shonen (battle action adventure manga)If you want to encompass the demographic into 4 Rushmore style heads you need to include a sports manga like Ashita no Joe or maybe if you think the spokon aspect of shonen sports is core to the identity you would have Star of the Giants. The romcom/harem/ecchi genre is also important to the demographic so something like Urusei Yatsura should be included. So let's go with Joe, Urusei, Fist of the north star and Devilman.
>>287275199>no cultural impactWrong.>or influenceAlso wrong. One Piece's influence is more subtle.
>>287275112>Kimetsucuck bait and switch tactics because no one wants to talk to him about his dead irrelevant manga over in his little threadChop chop, Tanjiro needs you
>One Piece has no cultural impactYou'd have to live under a rock to believe that when this series blew up for the past 6 years since the 2020s started.
>>287275609>>287275797>one piece matters because they teamed up with sports niggerball!!!
>>287275886>muh niggersCope.
>>287255560Fist of the North Star, Kinnikuman, Saint Seiya,.Dragon Ball
Same energy as...
>>287276218...this.
>>287275886is this you?
>>287256104Fist of the North Star's impact will definitely be felt long after every worthless piece of nu-shounen is forgotten by the mindless whores that consume it. Even if Fist of the North Star has been relegated to a pachinko franchise.
>boku no hero academia is great!Genuinely who says this? The overwhelming majority of it is dogshit plus even the final arc sucked. The beginning showed sone potential and it was sort of exciting all the way up to the Todoroki fight. After that Horikoshi wrote boring shit as if he didn't expect the manga to go that long without being cancelled
>>287275676I dont take orders from browns
>>287276694Jeremy does. This is his thread if you didnt noticed
>>287260882Fact, I even saw in Turkey they sell Luffy/Zoro figurines for tourists
>>287277196>he bumped his little dead thread againAtta boy. That's more like it.Tanjiro-chan needs you more than ever.
>>287277498>KnY out of nowhereStill mindbroken 7 years later?
>>287255560should just be demon slayer and dragon ball
>>287277633Anon... OP is literally name-dropping Kimetsu no Yaiba and some guys are talking about it too (and its lack of impact). You seem obsessed with little old me, but alas, I am just a boring old man. Waste no more time on me, Tanjiro and his friends needs you!
>>287255560>No Doraemon>No Shin-chan>No Meitantei KonanWestern Goblin hands created this.
>>287255586Falls off HARD after the tournament. There's not a single good arc, and then it has one of the worst endings I've ever read.
>>287277774>Op and some guysYour samefagging game is weak
for me; is not being able to imagine Chad losing.
>>287277935But enough talk about your little KnY clubhouse thread. Tanjiro-chan is calling for you, and he misses you a lot. Don't leave him hanging!
>>287260882It's just like Pokemon. The franchise has outgrown the games, the games are only to introduce new things for the franchise to iterate upon. Merchandising is the dream for all media.
>>287260050>that was kinda close to being One Piece in vibes with a group of characters going on adventures on a magical settingthat's too much of a generic premise to say anything like that is close to one piece, no? in any case, mashima is a toriyamafag (dragon ball and dragon quest) just like every other shonen mangaka of the 90s/00s so him and oda are just part of that group who grew on dragon ball and played jrpgsif you mean the artstyle, yeah i can see that with rave master, but ft didn't take long for fairy tail to have its own style
>>287255560There is nothing to discuss or even ponder about those showe cause their setting is boring as fuck and is the sameModern day Japan is a lame setting for a fantasy story. Point of fiction is to escape from reality. If i want to see Japan, i can just buy a ticket and visit Japan. Is why the only ones that that still persist are the ones with a mystical and unique world>Dragonball>HxH>One Piece>Naruto>Bleach(bot counting Karakura Town since most the plot takes place elsewhere)>FMA(setting is realistic but unique and not modern day cityscape)>Gurren Lagann>Yu Yu Hakusho(demon world)>Jojo's despite being in the real world is set in unique and interesting places like Egypt and SardiniaJJK fx is just dry without a unique and interesting setting, so all you have left to interest readers are character interactions, but Hokazono sucks at that shit too
>>287264790>Astro Boy/Mazinger>Sailor Moon>Goku>Lum?That way you have mecha, majou shoujo, battle shonen and romcom. Nagai, Takeuchi, Toriyama and Takahashi are probably the most influential
>>287279128Naruto is literally modern times but with ninjas and no guns
Shounen fags should be fed into woodchipperswhat a fucking waste of oxygen and foodturn them into mulch so they can produce something valuable for society
>>287279175Shounen does not refer to any specific type of anime or manga
>>287279128*GegeBut Kagurabachi also sucks tbqh. i insta-drop any fantasy story that's set in Japan.
>>287255560Shonen peaked with HxH and Gintama
>>287279157Naruto is in a fantasy worldJJK and Kagurabachi are just Japan which is boring
>>287274323Authors still talk about being inspired BY Bleach to this very day and Bleach as a franchise still gets tons of promotion and merchandise unlike other 2000s jump series.
>>287279128>cursed energy can pretty much only gather up in japan>so japan has evil super powerful curses running around killing people>and also psychotic sorcerers with magical powers>somehow all of world history has gone exactly the same as in real life>none of the major world powers are aware of the existence of cursed energy at all before the events of the plotjujutsu kaisen literally has the worst and laziest worldbuilding in all of shonen
>>287255560I didn't read/watch dragon ball, but out of the other 3, I don't think even one would land in my list of top 5 shonen manga. Maybe One Piece but only pre Punk Hazard.>are still betterby what fucking metric?
>>287280899IIRC, Jujutsu is not only a thing in Japan. It's *mainly* a thing in Japan because Tegen optimizes everyone's CE with her barriers. It's still bad worldbuilding, though.
Shounen manga hasn't grown or evolved since Kinnikuman.
Most nu-shonen suffer from Too Many Characters Syndrome. Instead of focusing on the handful of characters that initially got the audience hooked, they continually introduce new ones that the audience has no investment in. No amount of flashbacks can force that investment, and the intrigue of a new character with a new design or power wears off quickly. So they rinse and repeat to keep the audience interested.People want to see the core characters develop in real time. They want to become even more invested in the relationships and motivations that the series promised it would explore. People followed Demon Slayer to see Tanjiro turn Nezuko back into a human. People followed My Hero Academia to see Deku grow into a brave hero. People follow Fullmetal Alchemist to see Ed and Al get their bodies back.Jujutsu Kaisen and My Hero Academia are especially guilty of this. The audience really doesn’t care whether the hero/sorcerer of the week or the villain/curse user of the week wins the fight. The focus should be on developing the characters you already have instead of constantly introducing new ones.
>>287281341Dragon Ball says hello, it revolutionized the genre
>>287281486I don't like there being so many characters myself. I know it's common in shounen and the writers are basically forced to include more characters for merchandisimg, but it's too many to keep up with and you get less of the characters you really like. JJK and MHA keeps introducing new characters, be it the good guys or the bad guys, and I don't find myself caring about anyone specifically. Likewise, Demon Slayer sidelined the main characters in favor of the side characters, and the writer tried to give everyone their own little dramatic battle but I didn't care about anyone of them because I didn't spend time with these characters to get to know them. I'm sure the author felt attached to these characters and they felt more grander in their head, but the way the actual story played out, the story barely explores them until they're about to die and then the writer just exposition dumps their tale and expects the audience to cry for these characters. I think the writer bit more than what they could chew trying to juggle so many characters and factions. Which is the same that can be said for JJK and MHA to a greater extent. Nu-shounen seems to have a problem with loads and loads of characters.
>>287281486Imagine typing this when OP and Bleach exist.
>>287282381It took One Piece decades to start to suffering from this problem
>>287282410And?
>>287282440NTA but the point he made is that One Piece juggled its ensemble well for a long time until it became a problem much later whereas those other modern day shounen have this problem if juggling an ensemble from day 1
>>287281486>Instead of focusing on the handful of characters that initially got the audience hooked, they continually introduce new ones that the audience has no investment inthat's what made dragon ball so special and unique to this day tbdesutoriyama started with only goku and bulma, but he was always introducing and adding new characters to the cast. some stayed and became staples, others became background characters, others had their time before getting sidelined, but it was an evergrowing group that by the end became a big groupalso, the characters actually grew up and were allowed to age. i doubt any mangaka would be allowed that nowadays, but the balls to have goku suddenly show up as an adult and then just like that reveal only a few dozen chapters later "oh yeah, here's goku's son i guess". yamcha, tenshinhan, piccolo, vegeta, 18... in retrospect, it's weird how previous villains just become part of the gang, and there's not a big speech about them becoming good, just "yeah well you didn't kill me so here i am" and goku is just like "oh ok".it's very refreshing to read a story that starts with a boy and ends with the same boy spending time with his granddaughter.i guess my point is that dragon ball knew how to do that and offered a decent explanation for it. roshi realizes his students surpassed him, yamcha and tenshinhan realize they can't hang with the super saiyans, krillin becomes a dad...
>>287281486I miss Yamcha, Oolong and Bulma being actors in the plot too.
>>287255560>The Mount Rushmore of ShounenThat's 4 piles of turd
>>287255560>Bleachlol, lmao
>>287282748Toriyama knew how to adapt. People liked Goku and Vegeta so he made it the Goku and Vegeta show and dropped all the dead weight instead of acting like they always mattered.
>>287259629Chainsaw man has at best 40 millions copies sold.
>>287255560> Replace Ichigo and Luffy with Inuyasha and Ranma Now it's perfect
