pacifism doesn't mean christianity. why can't christian anime fans differentiate between a good cause and a religious ideology? that's why they hate on vinland saga because thorfinn follows a path of absolute pacifism even though he don't believe in jesus and christianity
>>287284301they should have drowned thorfinn in a swamp
>>287284318people like thorfinn makes this world a better place. why would anyone wanna kill him?
>>287284301Trigun did everything Vinland Saga did better, while being actually entertaining and more thematically sound.
>>287284301No that's not it at allI'm a Christian anime appreciator and I hate on this because it's deranged nonsense by a man who hates you for disagreeing with his worldview I'm not even a pacifist, absolute pacifism is against my religious beliefs
christians hate vinland saga because it's weak pussy shit where you let evil prosper despite having the capacity to stop itchristians care about making the world a better place so they go on righteous crusades
>>287284334>people like thorfinn makes this world a better placePeople like Thorfinn end up getting murdered along with their families
I'm surprised anyone even still care about this shit considering how the Manga ended.
>>287284351Can you imagine Vinland's author trying to write a character like Wolfwood? He'd be incapable of making him a good person.
Thorfinn was viking Sasuke complete with ninja-running along walls & seething while listening to Linkin Park and then he just poof turned in to a sanctimonious cult leader who lets people get killed because he was le enlightened now and smug in his moral superiority. Thorfinn was a mistake. he was always terrible.
>>287284301You are aware that the real Thorfinn later converted to Christianity and spent the rest of his miserable life as a priest right
>>287284428epilogue is coming soon, all of your doubts will be solved
>>287284488Author's an idiotAll there is to it
>>287284532The real Thorfinn is not related to this propaganda piece
>>287284488I knew the story went to shit when they sidelined Canute when he was a major thematic figure.VS went wrong when it just started being all about thorfinn.
I have no enemies. I love every single person on this planet. We should all be together. If we can't even coexist among our fellow humans, how would we do it when aliens come to our planet?
>I have no enemies.I do not consider any man my enemy. I do not spend my time thinking about how take things from others, or hurt them, or kill them. I spend my time thinking about myself, my family, and my community, and how we can grow to make our lives better, without ever wasting a moment wondering how I could make someone else's life worse.
>>287284429He'd be entirely incapable of it because a character like Wolfwood would shit on Thorfinn's retarded philosophy. Which became the backbone of Vinland Saga after the slave arc. I.e. the last time Vinland Saga was good. A Vinland Saga that actually progressed Thorfinn as a character throughout the entire story would be a completely different manga, made by someone who could recognize that 'Don't fight ever for any reason at all, regardless of what is happening, or if fighting would save someone's life, or even show that you can fight' is a retarded philosophy that doesn't apply to today, much less medieval Europe.>>287284539I remember people coping about this, and then the Volume release came out and there was no epilogue lmao.
Hi Vinland Schizo.Looking to ragebait anons again?
>>287284570>If your solution to some problem relies on "if everyone would just..." then you do not have a solution. Everyone is not going to just. At no time in the history of the universe has everyone just, and they're not going to start now.
Reposting.
>>287284657Using google lens on this greentext has the AI generate an counter-answer to this post. It's interesting to say the least.Part 1/2The image contains a 4chan post presenting a highly critical "hot take" on Thorfinn, the protagonist of Vinland Saga. The anonymous user argues that Thorfinn is a selfish, narcissistic character whose shift from "ultraviolence" to "ultrapacifism" is just another way of avoiding accountability.Here is a breakdown of the argument presented in the post and a look at the broader context of the series.Summary of the Post's ArgumentThe poster makes several aggressive claims to support the idea that Thorfinn is the "villain" or a "bad person":Pointless Violence: He chose to stay with Askeladd’s band and kill innocent people for a revenge quest he could have abandoned at any time.Selfish Penance: His shift to pacifism is framed as a "mindbroken masochist" phase where he forces his self-hatred onto others.Dangerous Idealism: By preaching "total pacifism" and a "fairy-tale country" (Vinland), he leads people into danger but refuses to fight to protect them when things go wrong.Escapism: The poster views both his warrior phase and his pacifist phase as ways to run away from the consequences of his actions.The "True Hero": The post concludes by claiming Askeladd was the actual hero of the story.
>>287284657The problem is that it was written by someone who unironically sees this and thinks "that's what a good person would do"
>>287284681Part 2/2Counter-Perspective: The Theme of RedemptionWhile the poster’s view is a common "cynical" take found in anime circles, it ignores the central philosophical question of Vinland Saga: Is it possible to truly atone for an unforgivable past?Accountability vs. Guilt: Thorfinn doesn't view his pacifism as "running away." In the "Slave Arc," he realizes that he cannot bring back the dead, so his only path forward is to build something that offsets the destruction he caused.The "First Resort" Problem: Thorfinn’s struggle isn't just about not fighting; it’s about his vow to find a "first resort" other than violence. He acknowledges that he is a "bad person" (a recurring internal monologue), which is why he feels he has no right to use violence ever again, even in self-defense.Askeladd as a "Hero": Calling Askeladd the hero is a popular but controversial take. While Askeladd is a charismatic and brilliant strategist, he is also a mass murderer and a manipulator who ruined Thorfinn’s life. He serves more as a deconstruction of the "Viking Hero" than a traditional protagonist.Why this is a "Hot Take"This post is a classic example of media contrarianism. It intentionally flips the intended narrative (Thorfinn's growth from a beast to a man) and reframes it as a character flaw.The author of the manga, Makoto Yukimura, has often stated that the series is a critique of violence in history and fiction. The tension the poster feels—the frustration with Thorfinn's refusal to fight—is actually a deliberate part of the reading experience, meant to make the audience question why we crave violence in our "heroes."Do you anons agree with what the AI is saying?
Thorfinn should have killed Floki.But by that point he was already pussy-I'm sorry a stupid pacifist so he didn't do it.
>>287284681>>287284695>AIKill yourself kill yourself right now go drink all the funny chemicals in your house bathe with a toaster jump off the roof run in the freeway sleep on the train tracks attack a police officer
>>287284301The author has a disgusting philosophy and has to fabricate this absurd story narrative to deliver it. But even in the context of his own crafted story it doesn't work.Thorfinn can only practice his "pacifism" from his unnatural pain tolerance and physical fortitude that he built through combat. It's from a position of strength that he projects his desire for peace. NOBODY can achieve that peacefully, he had to achieve that through violence.Nobody can practice, follow or live up to his example. The author is More "liberal" than he is Japanese, he's a self hating retard who is mind broken by shame for historical grievances. His story is fucking retarded and he loathes his son for pretending a stick is a sword, a natural desire for a boy to learn self defence. The author preaches an ahistorical, nonsense belief in deterring violence and maintaining peace.
>>287284681I really really sincerely hope you kill yourself. What the fuck is wrong with you.
>>287284570give hate a chance
>>287284837What the fuck kind of glue did YOU sniff as a kid?
>>287284860Fantasy?It's very clearly supossed to at least be based on historical reality.
don't caremade me want to exercise good will and good faith for the world and my peers, 4chan is allergic to all of those things and extremely conceited so its only natural that they will hate themes like these in their japanese intellecual cartoons
>>287284870Based on but more in style of a myth than realistic real things happening
>>287284872Brother I hated it because it's an absolute failure of everything you just said was good about it
>>287284872Happy it did that for youDosen't change the fact the writing sucks tho
>>287284920The writing sucks because he can't be honest about the subjectGood writing requires honesty, and he chose to write a story about the things he lies to himself about the most
>>287284860>is that a...pacifist???>NOOOOO I WILL SLAP THE SHENANIGANS INTO IT
>>287284301Looking back how the hell is this the same author who wrote the prologe and Askeladd? It feels completely different.
>>287284872Media literacy so bad you started living better after reading a bad story with a bad message.
>>287285001Just my bad guess but 1/3rd of Japan uses Twitter. Back 10 years ago they were getting bombarded with retarded libshit algorithms and a not insignificant amount of Mangakas were mindbroken into acting like bluehairs. This author and witch hat atelier come off like authors who spent too much time in California.
>>287285006I hate the phrase "media literacy" every time I see it some dumbass is using it to argue you're a bad person for disagreeing with their gay ship or calling them out for insisting that Naruto would be a communistBut you actually are correct here, so cheers to that
>>287285037cheers, it's not a bad term, but like you said, retards abused it. reclaiming it is my intention.
>>287285001Honestly it feels like a miracle this man managed to write that first arcBut the signs were thwre from the beginning, if you look for them
>>287284681>>287284695Half of this is just a summary of the post and the other half is just bullshit which is addressed in the post since Thorfinn doesn’t actually make anything better or improve anything. He leads a bunch of people into getting killed by injuns only to fuck off back to Greenland.
>>287285187He didn't even build shit his vinland "paradise" is literally just a bunch of houses,1 arheind statue, and forest, it would have no walls if someone hadn't pointed it out thankfully or else more people would have died.
>>287285231Part of me wonders how he got away with it. You would think that the survivors and or the relatives of the deceased would look for a wergild. The retard led a bunch of people into a shit show and then went back to where he came from. Someone is going to come and kick his ass and they would be 100% within the right for doing it.
>>287285346It because the manga is written so Thorfinn's always right, i was laughing when they were justifying having no walls in enemy territory.
>>287285371It gets to the point this stops being a story and just becomes propaganda
>normal person: i have no enemies>4chan user: everyone is my enemy i should kill everyone because they're all my enemywhy are we like this?
>>287285465It's not even good propaganda, it contradicts itself, on one chapter they are like "a true warrior dosen't use swords", then in another they get attacked by natives using swords.So which is it does violence work or not?
>>287285484Kids these days don't appreciate subtlety and craftsmanship when making a strawman these days, I swearYou all just go "yeah, he's shaped sorta kinda like my opponent. Looks ready ro attack"
>>287285484>appeal to normality>strawman>weProjecting hard here
Manga can never be anything more than cheap shit for children and men-children.Get over it, nerds.
I wonder why no one points out the schizo who makes these thinly-veiled Vinland Saga threads just to strawman anons who criticize it's story and always responds with "nuh-uh, you're retarded" at every point.It's just tiresome. The Schizo who haunts the Demon Slayer threads has more entertainment value.
>>287285764Tell me more? Is he some faggot who got obsessed with it due to it appealing to his midwit sensibilities?
>>287284428honestly people don't hate Vinland Saga's ending enough,even shit like JoJolion ended better
>>287285764midren is trash and the most overrated garbage anime ever made. now cry a river
Absolute pacifism is an absolutely ridiculous ideology and is itself borderline evil.
>>287284301it should have been set in feudal japan when they were cracking down on christianity rather than a place, time and people that the author has at best a surface level understanding of
>>287285967It should have been written after the author got beat up in real life and came back with a brain
Arnheld's past is actually retarded when you think about it.>Their village in Sweden has been involved in a conflict over an iron mine.>The men want to go to battle to obtain the metal while the women doesn't want the men to join in because they are satisfied with what they have.>All the men, including the younger ones leave to participate in the conflict and left the women, elderly and children behind.>The village women ran out to see ships, thinking the men returned.>The ships turn out to be an enemy village who attacked them while the men were away. They raze the village, Civilizations far more ancient than they are learned to build walls and have some manpower to protecr their lands yet this little village in Sweden who involved in a conflict had so lax security?
>>287286305You expect an understanding of war from this man?
>>287286305Honestly the whole norse culture is depicted bizarrely, there's barely any exploration on their actual beliefs and architecture and stuff, it's just like>Yeah they are warmongering barbarian minus this guy here and his son for some reason.It's ironic because non norse get actually explored like Askeladd (welsh) or Einar (English) or the natives of Vinland, lmao.
>>287286326Just pointing it out that even in the good arcs like Farmland had early warning signs even before the Baltic Sea Arc.Heck, Arnheld's past also clearly showed Yukimura's bias towards women. Clearly, he thinks all women don't want more resources for their village and are simple satisfied with what they have.It's no different from the women who joined Thorfinn's expedition in Vinland who wholeheartedly agree with his dumbass take that walls are bad and their settlement doesn't need them.
>>287284372the catholics are poor christians at best>idol worship>death toll in the hundreds of thousands if not millions>constant heresies, often ended violently by catholic inquisitors>long line of shithead popes>pope lives in a palace over a hoard of priceless relics and treasurejesus would be ashamed
>>287286355Does vs even mention the norse pantheon?
>>287286415Listen man I think Catholics are nuts too but you don't get to attack my boys over shit they didn't actually do
>>287284301he had faith that being a kinder person was worth it even when it was to his disadvantage, which does more to follow the teachings of jesus than most christiansnot to mention the saga of erik the red literally ends with everyone deciding Vinland is untenable and leaving for home, which is how any of them lived to tell the tale at all
>>287286424yes but only some godsAnd they say it's made up
>>287286424During the Baltic Sea Arc, one of Thorkell's warriors died in battle and expects to see Valkyries carring him to Valhalla. Instead, he just sees pitch black nothingness and wails that he believed in religion.Of course, the Indian Shaman during the final arc sees a vision of future european colonization like black slavery, cowboys, pollution and even the fucking atomic bomb testing in american soil and this convinces him the settlers are bad.Yeah, Yukimura is ideological hack.
>>287286456to be fair what little we know about old norse paganism is mostly what christians bothered to write down, and they were not kind.modern norse paganism is for selling little Thor hammer necklaces.
>>287286507Yeah fair but it's still weird how most of the norse we see are almost caricaturers, like warrior who Valhalla.
Exept thorfinn and thors of course, he's the exeption, for some reason.
>>287284409Because of people who want to make the world a worse place
>>287286507No wonder why, considering they saw it as "those barbarian cults that are burning and looting our churches" or "that nonsense we used to believe before the missionaries came to save our souls"
>>287286487Oh shit i forgot about the shaman vision that was hilarious,bro was seeing atom bombs.
>>287286415Europe was never really christian, it was just something we painted on our shields while doing the same shit we'd done for a millennia before that
>>287286541i think the blood eagle is a christian invention. its comically brutal.but yeah, northwestern european christians had pretty good reasons to fear and detest the pagans.
>still thinking that this manga has some philosophical point to make after the author repeatedly stated that he thinks only man is responsible for war, all women are good and that his sons are evil for playing with wooden swords
This guy was right and Thorfinn's a hack of a leader.
>>287286593If Europe was never Christian then nowhere was
>>287286593You wouldn't even know who Plato was if christian monks didn't preserve the greek teachings.
>>287286628>You don't know unless you try>tries >FailsWhat now, thorfinn?
>you see, this famous king of the danes, who willingly converted to Christianity after seeing that despite being conquered they had massive cities and great works of art and a populace that cared for each other, was actually fighting against God>I know this because I visited Sweden and they told me all about the culture they hate>also I am disappointed in my sons because I know they will be violent for no reason, I wish I was a woman instead, women never do anything wrongWe talked about this shit years ago already, you're an actual grade A cocksucker if you think Vinland Saga is intellectual.
>I have no enemies>except other men who don't believe me when I say I have no enemies
>>287284301Because Christians can't fathom someone being a good person and having a sense of right and wrong without reading the book that tells you what's right and wrong.
>>287284301It has nothing to do with religion.It's the usual shounen good boy shit. Everyone is tired of moralizing wimp shounen protagonists.People want to watch cool sutff happening, they don't want to be preached at.The problem here is that he used to be cool, there used to be cool characters, and then they turned him into this. It's a bait and switch. This is not what people have signed up for.
>>287286902your pic looks coola magical girl series where the norse pantheon is cute girls sounds fun. they made combat aces into cute girls in Strike Witches, so why not.make pants optional as well.
>>287286818How do you decide what's right and wrong, little buddy?
>>287286818When's the last time you talked to one without calling them evil
>>287286818Yeah those atheist states like Cambodia and China and Soviet Russia are really good and moral.
>>287286937synthesizing Objectivism with Ethical Altruism.
>>287287002You don't know what that means and entails. Altruism still has to be defined with what it actually is. You have to define what "help" means and why it's a net positive. I know you're probably underage and have heard about these terms a couple of weeks ago for the first time, but you should read into it.
>>287287002>synthesizing Objectivism with Ethical Altruism.Objectivism has several built-in non-negotiables: Rational self-interest is the moral standard, your own life as the highest value, sacrificing yourself for others is immoral, and helping others is only moral if it serves your values (not duty). Ethical altruism is prioritizing the well-being of overs over your own, moral worth increasing through self-sacrifice and your interests are not morally privileged. You want to "synthesize" something that outright rejects each other. The moral axis doesn't align at all.You might as well have said "I'm going to make fire wet", you pretentious fucking queer.
>>287286937From anime.>>287286955Always?>>287286959I don't really care about politics but yes, they are?Also, every developed country seperates state and church.You think Russian citizens aren't Christian or something?
>>287287092>I don't really care about politics but yes, they are?...You genuinely have no clue what anyone is talking about, am I right?
>>287286818your atheist morals are derived from European christainity and would be completely different if you were raised outside of the west>>287287002even rand and libertarianism is derived from chirstianity and the personal relationship with god vs collectivism seen in islam/judaism/all of asia
>>287287092Does this retard really think soviet were a paragon of morality?
>>287287092Nigga they killed people in those countries for being religious, you fucking retard. Cambodia had concentration camps for the religious and intellectual (and anyone perceived as such). What the fuck do you mean "I don't really care about politics" lmao.
>>287287092>Separation of church and state means there is no such thing as an inherently religious or inherently athiest society
>>287287092>I don't really care about politics but yes, they are?
>>287287082ayn rand is dead and leonard piekoff is senial. i will do what i want with her philosophy.the hardcore edge can be sanded down. one can embrace secular rationality and see that altruism has been a major force for good.
>>287287092ah yes the good and moral stance of beating babies against tree trunks because their parents wear glasses. sugoi atheist-chan
>>287287141What do you MEAN the "hardcore edge"? It's the fucking core of the moral axis of the ideology. Please tell me how you define these things if you take out the core definition.
>>287287092>From anime.So your morality unironically comes from jap animated entretretaiment?
>>287286959Tell me lies tell me sweet little lies
>>287287141You literally don't know what these things mean. You're just saying words and change their meaning on a whim. You even admit right here that you think you can just remove the non-negotiable trait of the philosophy without issue.
>>287287108>your atheist morals are derived from European christainitythis is the root of the problem, Christ could not have envisioned a greater love for ones fellow man than that of communism
>>287287175helping people out even if they dont totally buy in or are confused by the philosophy. rand was hostile to anyone who wasnt a slavish follower.she would let a trainload of her ideological enemies die, even if her hand was on the rail switch. one can be a utilitarian without embracing slave morality.
>>287287176Seeing how he thinks Cambodia is a nice country that never did anything bad, I can believe it.
>>287287195>Christ>CommunismAh yes Jesus would have definitely supported authoritarianism and massacres in the name of the party.
>>287287104Yeah, so? Doesn't mean I'm wrong does it now.>>287287108But that has nothing to do with your argument.So people outside of the West are inherrently worse people because they weren't raised on """Christian""" morals?>>287287113Sure but who didn't?>>287287176Yes.
>>287287200You're not adressing the argument. Please define objectivism if it's not self-serving and considers self-sacrifice immoral. You're just saying words without meaning.
>>287287225eat my asshole
>>287287223I appreciate trolling in a Cuckland Saga thread but we had a somewhat nice discussion going on man.
>>287287223>So people outside of the West are inherrently worse people because they weren't raised on """Christian""" morals?i didn't say worse, i said different
>>287287195Communism is philosophically built upon envy, denial of individual responsibility, and categorizing people by who you're allowed to hate
>>287287278tied up with honeyed words. its literally the road to hell paved with 'good' intensions
>>287287240I knew this is a talking point but I didn't expect everyone to go apeshit over a mundane statement like saying you can be a good person without believing in god or the bible.Then again this is a Vinland Saga thread so meltdowns are to be expected.>>287287276But if good morals come from Christianity then how could people in non-Christian country have good morals.Being different is a given but since the assumption is that being a good person is a result of Christian morals, lacking Christian upbringing would mean you wouldn't become a good person.Looking at that it should be obvious that the Christian morals and upbringing isn't what brings forth good people. Especially since devoted Christians can be horrible people.
>>287287321Good heavens you misunderstood everything
>>287287321Nigga you said concentration camps can be good and moral.
>>287287321>Looking at that it should be obvious that the Christian morals and upbringing isn't what brings forth good people.jesus espoused a humanist and altruistic ideology in the form of parables. literally all the good parts of the bible are jesus.in fact the jefferson bible is the bible with anything not pertaining to jesus stripped out. no supernatural crap, no old testament stories. it begins with his birth.you should check it out, its easier to see the moral core there. remember jesus began teaching at a time and place were roman militarism was at its zenith. so powerful was the message that emperors embraced it and threw down their pagan idols.
>>287287321Morals come from Christianity why do you think a lot of countries chose it?It's because their previously morals sucked.
>>287287363it depends on who you put in them
>>287287390>it depends on who you put in themUhh you actually defending gulags?
>>287287321>But if good morals come from Christianity>the assumption is that being a good person is a result of Christian moralsagain you're straw manning. i said different.>Christian morals and upbringing isn't what brings forth good people.all depends on what you consider being a 'good person'. raping and enslaving non-believers is what makes a muslim a 'good person' within their morality as that is acting in the same manner as mohamed god's most perfect human and final prophet. obeying your elders and parents even when its to the detriment to yourself to the point where you're practically a slave until you have your own family to abuse is what makes a good person in many asian cultures.
>>287287387cynics might note Christianity promises the meek salvation and the kingdom of heaven, at a time when 99pc of the population was dirt poor. it appeals to the masses in a way paganism did not.
