Is this a plot hole or can someone explain it to me. Why does Kaji think that Lilith is Adam when he's the one who delivered the Adam embryo to Gendo?So Kaji is the one who delivers the Adam Embryo to Gendo in episode 8. He knows Adam is in an embryo form, and presumably that Lilith is the angel that is crucified in the Terminal Dogma.However, if this is the case, why does he tell Misato that Lilith is actually Adam in episode 15? Does he know that the angel is actually Lilith and is lying to Misato, or does he genuinely think that Adam has suddenly grown giant and been imprisoned there.This is made more confusing by the fact that Kaji's motivations are left intentionally ambiquos. We never know if he is truly working for NERV, Gendo, the Japanese government, or SEELE.So what do you think of my question. Does this have a canon explanation, is it a plot hole, or was it left intentionally ambiguous so that we don't actually know the answer?
Maybe the embryo was a missing piece.
>>287590256The real reason is that the Adam/Lilith split happened very late in production. This was originally supposed to be a regrown Adam from the embryo.The in-canon reason simply would be that Kaji just didn't know that much at the time.
>>287590594It pisses me off that people pretend that you're an idiot that doesn't fully understand Eva when you point out that there a BUNCH of plot holes that were caused by the fact that they were genuinely making it up as they went along and throughout most of the story the creators themselves genuinely had no idea what the lore was. Eva is a masterpiece but it's not flawless.
>>287590256all the lilith stuff is confusing to me. kaworu goes down (after seele told him that gendo has adam in his hand), maybe thats related to kaji information, people think adam is down there and only gendo knows the truth. the angels attack terminal dogma because they are attracted to lilith? why? but what about adam? the lilith introduction is so weird, they didnt even know how the third impact works so its existence was really necessary at that point?
>>287590880How it is a masterpiece if it is full of holes? Some info is left ambiguous but there isn't any real hole (arguably the kaworu scene). Everything is a masterpiece nowadays...
>>287590880There's no such thing as a plot hole in the first place, only idiots think about these things
>>287591190Fuck you. Retards like you lets lazy writers put zero effort into their work.
>>287591069The Angels attacking Tokyo-3 before Adam is even brought there in episode 8 is another huge plot hole that has no cannon explanation as far as I can tell.
>>287591701The only retards are those who sit around thinking about nonsense like "plot holes"
>>287591753your position contradicts the very point of creating stories. Why should we even get invested in stories if the creators themselves don't care enough about it to make it consistent? Do you just watch anime with your mouth open drooling, just observing the action and never once thinking about the plot, characters, or deeper meaning?
>>287592102You don't learn anything deep looking for plot holes, that's the whole point. It's an activity retards engage in for entertainment because they are too dump to actually analyze stories. That's why it's so popular on the internet and has become so widespread in the braindead cinemasins style commentary. It's a crutch for people who approach art from a position of entitlement ("Why should I even care!?") because they are driven by the need to make themselves feel superior to art to cope with the cognitive dissonance that results from inherently knowing the truth of how dumb they really are.Every second spent looking for, thinking about, or talking about plot holes is wholly wasted in meaningless stupidity.
I'll demonstrate a perfect example of why people who look for plot holes are completely incapable of understanding art.>>287590256>He knows...and presumably that Lilith is the angel that is crucified in the Terminal DogmaWhat prompts this assumption?
>>287592399It's true, it's better to turn off your brain and enjoy great works like JJK or Naruto! This plot-hole and bad writing shit is for nerds!
>>287592642>bad writingOh, it is you. I'm never sure until you talk like that.
>>287592399internal logic is extremely important. is ok to enjoy random shit because it has great visuals, but is also ok to say its random shit. low-level nitpicking is retarded but its a flaw anyways; structural inconsistency is crucial and its analysis is not retarded at any level. op saying kaji should know about lilith is retarded, thats true. but eva has some decent bullshit, like what the fuck is the third impact? what the fuck gendo wanted with rei? why angels attack?
>>287592560Why does he assume Adam has suddenly turned from a tiny embryo into a giant?
>>287592903>structural inconsistency>what the fuck is the third impact? what the fuck gendo wanted with rei? why angels attack?really?
>>287592903>structural inconsistency is crucial and its analysis is not retarded at any level.It's retarded at every level. Every question you asked about "bullshit" is meaningless trivia. Everything important about third impact was communicated to you because you only need to know what it means to the characters. It's not a real thing, it's not like you can learn anything by someone making up a fact sheet for a fictional event. Funnily enough, otaku commodified just that sort of trivia and as the pinnacle of otaku productions, NGE spawned its own sub-industry of churning out trivia to be sold to the masses.>>287592999As pointed out, he knows Adam was a giant being that reverted to an embryo that he delivered. What is Kaji's total amount of information about Lilith?
>>287593071so the only important about a piece of media is the emotional aspect? we can have random shit happening in the background whith lasers, vampires and flying cars but we should focus only in the romance between two guys that are fighting for no reason? you are reducing everything.this reminds me about this anime movie, maquia (by okada). the whole plot was a rushed mess with political plotlines that went nowhere, random timeskips, characters going nuts, dragons, explosions...but the ending has this mother crying over her child, all the movie was about that cheap emotional moment
>>287593071What's the point of execution by that logic?
>>287592999he knows adam used to be a giant white humanoid, and he knows the embryo was still alive and trying to grow even when it was sealed up in a block of plastic. given what he knows it's a reasonable leap of logic upon finding another half-restored giant white humanoid a month or so later
>>287593606quite literally thistransparently obviousI don't know why people are so desperate to poke holes in good stories
>>287593447>we can have random shit happening in the backgroundYes that's exactly it, the emotional/thematic aspect of a story is the only thing that has meaning. Vampires are meaningless bullshit, aside from the impact on the audience. Vampires are random bullshit so the only thing that matters is how you use your words/art to move the audience with your depiction. Consistency can have value in terms of things like large metaphors where an inconsistency could obscure the connection, which is supposed to produce an emotional/intellectual resonance in the viewer. Otherwise, anything like realism or being realistic is purely a stylistic choice that has no actual value.>>287593482What do you think was the logic behind his execution?There's a very specific line where the audience should immediately know he's going to die (besides any of his own lines laden with cynical acceptance of the inevitability of being put down like a dog).
>>287590256>Why does Kaji think that Lilith is Adam when he's the one who delivered the Adam embryo to Gendo?Because no one except Seele and Gendo knew about Lilith's existence.He probably didn't even know there was an angel crucified until much later.>does he genuinely think that Adam has suddenly grown giant and been imprisoned thereSandalphon went from its embryonic state to a fully grown Angel in matter of seconds so it's not crazy to think that the same happened to Adam.>We never know if he is truly working for NERV, Gendo, the Japanese government, or SEELEKaji was a triple agent: he officially worked for Nerv/Gendo, but was also working in secret for the Japanese Govt. to investigate Nerv and Seele; and for Seele to keep an eye on Gendo.>This is made more confusing by the fact that Kaji's motivations are left intentionally ambiquos.His goal was to "find the truth". I suppose his reasons weren't explored further on the series due to lack of time.
>>287593901NTA but you are deeply undervaluing consistency by equating it to realism. Consistency is more about things having a logical/understandable outcome for a given input. This is important in a story with stakes as people need have an idea of what would happen if certain events were or were not to occur. If you have random bullshit that isn't at least addressed then the audience ends up not caring as much. This is because the random bullshit can not be accounted for so anything can happen due to the random bullshit (in the most extreme of examples). As anything can happen so no action/inaction from the characters can influence the outcome.
>>287594091Thanks, finally an actual answer
>>287590256>We never know if he is truly working for NERV, Gendo, the Japanese government, or SEELE.But anon he's working for all of these. And more important, for his own motives.
>>287594181>Consistency is more about things having a logical/understandable outcome for a given inputThat's what themes are for. Actual logic is totally pointless because stories use their themes to tell you if an outcome is going to be good or bad. NGE is a great example of this because it uses all sorts of weird editing techniques and other forms of direct sensory overload to establish long running emotional/thematic logic like the connections between the color red and pain or water and comfort(/the womb). The vampire thing from before makes it clear too. When a vampire shows up in a story, dumb people ask how it works and smart people ask what it means.
Another perfect exampleWe aren't shown Kaji's killer, we just see him with a final tug at our emotions and the cold fact that he's dead. Doesn't matter who did it, just that you're sad he's gone as we knew he would be due to all the fatalism in his dialogue. You don't need to make some of chart to follow his allegiances to see if he's going to die, as soon as he is pegged as a double/triple agent you should emotionally understand he's marked to die.
>>287594290Themes are important. However, themes will not cover over plot consistencies. Using the vampire example: if a common/pre-established weakness of vampires does not affect one of the vampires in the story nor is the reason why it doesn't affect that vampire explained then it will break someone's suspension of disbelief. This is important as the suspension of disbelief is what allows people to get invested in the story, and thus the themes. So the more you break the suspension of disbelief, the weaker the themes become.
>>287594570>suspension of disbeliefNonsense for stupid peopleYou aren't ever supposed to lose sight of the fact that you're engaging with a crafted work. Your disbelief must be honed into the lens that allows for close reading.
>>287591717>The Angels attacking Tokyo-3 before Adam is even brought there in episode 8 is another huge plot hole that has no cannon explanation as far as I can telltrue
>>287594653Ah. You one of THOSE people who likes to read 4th wall breaks and don't care why things are happening in a story so long that it "fits the theme", even at the expense of characters or the story's stakes. In Amerimutt words:If a story is a cake: you are the type of person who would eat nothing but icing as it is the sweetest part of the cake and will ignore the foundations of the cake despite it giving the cake its flavour.
>an entire thread of people filtered by EvaGrim.
>>287594808>don't care why things are happening in a story so long that it "fits the theme"There's no other reason to care, it's fiction. None of it is actually happening and so there is no "why" beyond that it was invented to manipulate your emotions. Stories are not math problems that are supposed to cleanly balance out to zero and be reproducible by peer review. These "foundations" you're talking about are flavorless, nutrition-less structures that just serve as a platform for the icing to sit on. The vampire thing is really interesting again because you referred to common weaknesses as if storytellers are supposed to adhere to the random expectations people have from other stories. You're supposed to forget you know anything about vampires other than what the story in front of you says about them.
>>287594903Using the same logic, then why do people care about themes and why are themes important? It is just fake right? Why care if a character acts completely out of character? You are correct when you say that stories aren't reproducible. However, my point is that the "flavorless" parts you disregard are important as they are what help give the story meaning. Characters are important as they guide the viewer through the story and help explore the themes. Characters themselves aren't themes. Disregarding characters and characterisation hurts the story and thus the themes. On the vampire topic, notice that I said common or pre-established. The pre-established case covers instances where what is presented contradicts "what the story in front of you says about them".
>>287595068>It is just fake right? Why care if a character acts completely out of character?You're so close to being able to graduate grade school and regulate your emotions properlyYou aren't supposed to care, it's a sign of mental illness if you start looking for plot holes and get disturbed when you find them
>>287595144Why do you care about themes then? Explain it to me, mister Lit Major.
On the topic of mental illness, when did you start making threads complaining about things like plot holes and "bad writing?" How many total threads would you estimate you've made since then?>>287595202Because artists create these works to communicate themes to an audience, there's no other reason to care about fiction
>>287595343>there's no other reason to care about fictionNTA but why do you care about how other people consume and interact with fictional media? And if you don't like how others interact with fictional media, why engage with them to begin with?
>>287595343So you care about themes because artists created stories to talk about themes. To me that is an extremely reductionist way to view stories. There are numerous good stories where the characters and world are more important than themes. Hell, EVA is so good because the characters and world are interesting, not just because of the themes.
>>287595487Don't you think it's sad that there is an entire generation of children too stupid to understand storytelling and art because of the proliferation of garbage ideas about "analysis" on the internet?Think about it this way, these degenerate retards are so lacking in consciousness that they can never understand and enjoy your favorite anime.>>287595513The characters are the theme of NGE. It's literally the pinnacle of late stage otaku focus on character appeal and that itself is part of its thematic content. Do you think it's random that Misato keeps promising fanservice?The setting is just as important to the themes. Again, do you think it's random that we get this weird limbo Japan that's "futuristic" but also has corner stores just like contemporary Japan and familiar markers like cicadas twisted out of sync or the strange notion of cyclically destroyed and moved capitals?None of those things are important because of any "consistency" in worldbuilding like a realistic presentation of the aftermath of a major impact-like event but rather because they blend the familiar and the alien to manipulate the audience, and to comment on Japanese society.
>>287591069Because Adam deactivated itself. Maybe watch the show or something.
>>287591069>kaworu goes down (after seele told him that gendo has adam in his hand)Kaworu doesn't need to merge with the actual Angel, he can just find a being that was born from Adam and doesn't have a soul.Unit-02 contains a soul (Asuka's mother) so the only thing left was the crucified body at the Terminal Dogma.It's just a theory, but I suppose Kaworu thought that the being held there also descends from Adam, or is part of the actual Angel.It was only after he was right in front of Lilith that he realized that Seele lied to him.
>>287595642characters are the themes If that is your view of the story, then doesn't that mean that the characters should be consistent and act in ways that are logical to themselves in order to make sure that the theme itself is logical and consistent.
>>287595642>Don't you think it's sad that there is an entire generation of children too stupid to understand storytelling and art because of the proliferation of garbage ideas about "analysis" on the internet?I do think it's sad. Unfortunate, even. I have friends that are unable to understand themes, character arcs, or the basic cause and effect of stories they consume, subsisting purely off of how it makes them feel in the moment, only to later go onto YouTube searching for a 1-3 hour essay of someone spoon-feeding the deeper meaning to them. They likely forget it after that, too.>Think about it this way, these degenerate retards are so lacking in consciousness that they can never understand and enjoy your favorite anime.And this is why I try and keep my engagement with others and their perception of fiction to a minimum. I know people are going to, willfully or unwittingly, fail to understand and enjoy things the way I do. I keep myself content by choosing not to know what they think. It's lonely, and a little narrow-minded, but it beats having that feeling of forlorn frustration that others can't love something you do.My point originally was that if the way others engage with fiction bothers you then it's best not to engage, though I understand and sympathize with your point about disliking how others fundamentally cannot share the same experience. Good post, anon. I agree with you completely, I just think it's best to let people who want to stay ignorant do as they please.
>>287595824Not really, they only need to act in ways necessary to communicate the themes, which need not be logical or consistent themselves.These autistic fixations have never really had a place in art and storytelling, at least before mass consumer media and the internet
Sega does what Nintendont
don't feed the trolls
>>287595942>consistent characters and themes never had a place in mediaAnon, it weakens the theme if an author/director is trying to convey one thing and then does/shows something that completely contradicts the initial thing they are trying to convey without addressing the contradiction. This is because they are sending mixed messages that go against each other and therefore suggests that the messages don't mean anything.
>>287596104Sort ofBut most retards just nitpick irrelevant details and don't even understand what would actually be contradictory.This thread gives perfect examples with the insane questions about Kaji that are all very easily answered if you just...watch the show closely. The type of people who go looking for flaws in media are the dumbest people who are incapable of finding those flaws and just sort of start complaining that their random expectations about vampires were ignored or that the mechanics of a fictional metaphysical catastrophe aren't explained in lecture format.
>>287590256Op, do you remember that everyone was told on lie after another? Even kanji was told a lie after another and his obsession was to find the truth. He delivered the embryo to gendo, so he may have assumed it grew back up to what Lilith is now. Remember all of this was one lie after another. When you thought you get a straight answer you actually got another lie. It wasn't until the end of Eva was when Misato explained shit. The whole thing even plot wise, when we the audience entered this show, were told a set of lies. Even the people who knew the truth was one step behind the biggest liar, Gendo.Gendo knew how to manipulate people, even kanji. It's not so much a hole but a deliberate plot misleading.
>>287596161Ok. I now understand where you are coming from. It isn't that you view themes as the ONLY thing that matters. Rather, you view themes as very important and view people who focus on minor details without factoring in the theme as people who focus on the irrelevant thing. Fair enough. Sorry for autistically nitpicking your arguments even though I sort of agree with the basis of your argument (replace themes with broad characterisation and narrative).
>>287591069The angels either were driven to be the ones who ruled earth as god or the angel species and went after Lilith. Some were drawn with that desire or were just didn't have anything in mind. When they first moved Adam kanji had to ride with a battle ship with auska to protect it. You could say Lilith was partly a decoy until Adam showed up at nerv but who knows. The major reason, imo, the majority went after Lilith was because that's where humanity's cradle of life was and where the black egg was, the white egg of Adam was turned into the moon when Lilith landed. (This info was based off of the PS2 Eva game.)>>287591069>but what about adam? the lilith introduction is so weird, they didnt even know how the third impact works so its existence was really necessary at that point?Third impact can happen various ways. If Adam revived it would mean the death of humanity. That's it.Merging Adam and Lilith would make a god. Which was never supposed to happen in the first place .
>>287596215>Even the people who knew the truth was one step behind the biggest liar, Gendo.And he was one step behind the actual biggest liar, Yui
>>287596340Well said
>>287591753That's such a silly statement, I don't know how you aren't ashamed of yourself for making it.
>>287596574What have you learned from looking for plot holes? It's an utterly pointless activity that idiots engage in to waste time while they wait to die.
>>287596613I learned how to not leave plot holes in my own writing. You're posting on /a/, do not presume to lecture others on wasting time.
>>287591113There’s more to art than being foolproof to nitpickers
>>287596640What have you written that was so popular people would give a fuck to poke holes in your writing?
Because he didn't think the hidden truth of the world would be so gynocentric...
>>287591069>>287591717>the angels attack terminal dogma because they are attracted to lilith? why? but what about adam?The Angels can feel that there's a progenitor at Nerv HQ but they can't tell if its Adam or Lilith. They just follow their instinct.Gaghiel just happened to appear at the right moment and place.
>>287596640Do you have some litrpg trash with detailed and consistent stat pages collecting dust at 0 views on royal road or something?
Eva is shit they don't even explain what tax policy the magi dictated as a shadow government
>>287590256Eva's lore and world building is not important, it's just there to seele the premise and atmosphere.
To be fair did the lore even matter, half the characters don't pay attention to it, only selee and gendo.
>>287594290>When a vampire shows up in a story, dumb people ask how it works and smart people ask what it means.what if the way it works is supposed to to into and reinforce what it means, and helps to make that clear to the viewer?Consistency and logic can be quite integral to conveying the themes of a product.
>>287599836No they're completely irrelevant. Fodder for youtube shorts that retards watch to go wow I never noticed that plot hole before goldfishing to the next 30 second clip. That's the level of depth of plot hole discussion.
>>287590256Evangelion never made any sense and anyone who pretends to understand it is a pseud
>>287594091>and for Seele to keep an eye on Gendo.when was this revealed?
>>287599958You are being rather obstinate. A consistent world and story that reinforces the theme of the product is quite capable of enhancing the conveyance of that product’s theme to the viewer. Now it is certainly possible for a creator to focus on this too much and stymie their own work by getting too caught up in autistic details. And it’s not like a plot hole is going to ruin a show necessarily. But a certain level of consistency if executed right can help the viewer understand the theme.You’re acting as though these things can only ever hurt a work of fiction and I think that is rather silly.
>>287600117>when was this revealed?HOLY SHITThis is one of the most signposted facts in the entire series. Episode 20 starts with Kaji sarcastically talking about SEELE before it cuts to them; later in the episode during another SEELE scene they are talking about a bell that didn't ring and it cuts directly to Kaji.
>>287590880The ending should tell you very clearly that nothing you watched mattered and you should go out and touch grass. Anno is a hack and likes to waste every one's time with his mental illness.
>>287600287gomen, it's been a while.
>>287600337The ending couldn't have been facilitated without the events shown to us in the show. Both the "physical" set up of the Angels being defeated, Unit-01 having consumed an Angel, the MPEs being made, the Lance of Longinus being away from Earth, among other things, as well as the "psychological" set up of Shinji being mentally weathered to the point where Instrumentality plays out the way it does, are all contingent on what happens in the show. That episode 25 + 26 are a mess due to production constraints, or that End of Evangelion goes through a whole philosophical rigamarole only to end with just Asuka and Shinji on the beach, doesn't mean that what happened before that didn't matter. In fact, seeing these characters go through the trials they do is paramount to the show's core theme of human connection and the message given in End of Evangelion that your bonds with others, while scary and often painful, are better than nothing at all. You can't poignantly deliver that message without context.As for Anno, he only became a hack after he saw that his nonchalance, likely caused by his own mental problems of being incapable of honesty due to fear of criticism, was a favorable and popular persona to adopt. He saw that he could be safe by being aloof, but then the disconnect of his lived lie and the earnest response his fans gave to him and his show made him detest the culture that propelled him to fame, because he never got over his own issues. In fact they were likely worsened by his wife, especially when you look at the Rebuilds and what 3.0+1.0 does to Gendo's characterization and how it ends Shinji's story.
Gendo was talking about how Adam was growing very fast.
WHAT DID GENDO SAY TO RITSKO AT THE END PLEASE TELL ME ITS BEEN 16YRS
>>287604334I'm your father.
>>287604334I fucked you, bit nevar loved you, i was just waiting for ma waifu Yui.
>>287604334your mom was hotter
>>287604334Kys whore, bang!That felt good
>>287604334the game
>>287604334A common theory was that he said "I needed you" but the source for that was conjecture Rei/Lilith taking on the form of Ritsuko and typing "I need you" on Maya's computer. In the Manga he says "I loved you" which is as close to concrete evidence as we're ever going to get for what he said in EoE.
>>287604334I need(ed) you.>>287604793manga is sadamoto's own thing and gendo saying 'I loved you' just feels out of character.
>>287604098With Fuyutsuki, about how Adam's growth is on schedule and being controlled with the Spear of Longinus they just retrieved. It just makes more sense.
>>287604334A lie.
>>287590256>Why does Kaji think that Lilith is AdamHe doesn't.>Le plotholeNo plothole here, just OP being retarded.The one who thinks Lilith is Adam is Kaworu, not Kaji.
>>287600287>>287594091>>287594203>>287590256Lmao, there is no answer for it. Kaji did the shit just for fun, Both his employers benefited thanks to him.Also, there's no "third" side because jap gov stands on side of "others" with Keel as chairman
>>287609217>"kaworu, gendo has the embryo of adam in his hand, ok?">"wakarimashita">*goes to terminal dogma anyway*
>>287590256Old anime required you to be smart enough to connect the dots simple as that retard, not like now that they explain everything like if is made for mentally impaired that go full retard going "is a plot hole" when it isn't.If you were smart and watched the series you would understand and know everything.
>>287610385Оk, smart ass. Tell me who killed Kaji.
>>287590256Eve is Lilith's mask.Sensory reality is Eve.Awakening Lilith ends and remakes the world. ie removing her mask and seeing her true face, which would be removing the veil. Rei is just the veil / anima personnified. It's why Gendo only interacts with Shinji through Rei. It's essentially symbolic rape of the conscious mind by bypassing it and going directly to the subconscious.
>>287610478
>>287610118None of the governments unanimously submit to NERV/SEELE and Kaji's spying is literally part of their attempt to figure out what the fuck the real plan is anyway. Kaji goes along with it because that's precisely what he wants to know. He makes himself useful to all those conflicting employers because that allows him deep access. Turning on the government gets him into the secret government, turning on the secret government gets him in with Gendo, and while working with Gendo he's tasked with things like transporting Adam that give him direct glimpses of parts of the real game being played. He's doing it all for the same reason he gives Shinji while watering his melons.>>287610477Tell me why it matters who killed him
>>287610478>>287610522Adam and Lilith are the right and left hemispheres of the brain. Lilith is the thinking and perceiving kernel of the unconscious mind, buried under the ocean. She is the unseen architect of the veil, the mother or motherhood itself, and the origin of the fundamental icnompleteness which allows people to exist as individuals on Earth.
>>287610579Lilith plays all the parts. Most people are engulfed by ehr and incorporated into the hive mind. She jumps around and will interact with you through people.
>>287610566Tell me why it doesn't matter when whole argument happened on basis of whom actually he served
>>287610704Who does Shinji serve?
>>287610752>ShinjiWe are talking about Kaji
>>287610756
>>287610522
>>28761080243, 34. You see her mask through 34. She sees you through 43. 4/3 is part of the sphere volume formula. Crucifixion is April 3rd. etc. There's a templar story about how they skinned some woman alive, drive a double lance through her heart, and then burned her. Their depiction of Lilith is basically this.
>>287610785Shinji and Kaji serve the same person, it's the same answer for both and the identity of Kaji's killer has nothing to do with it
>>287610477what the fuck? it doesnt matter. it literally doesnt matter at all. everything is a plot hole then, why are we alive? this is too much autism, and i am very autistic when analyzing media but god this is too much
>>287609217>He doesn't.He literally tells that to Misato in this scene.
!
>>287610865Lilith is also basically Selene.>In his dialogue between Aphrodite and Eros, Lucian also has Aphrodite admonish her son Eros for bringing Selene "down from the sky".[84] While Quintus Smyrnaeus wrote that, while Endymion slept in his cave beside his cattle:Divine Selene watched him from on high,and slid from heaven to earth; for passionate lovedrew down the immortal stainless Queen of Night."Endymion is cursed with eternal sleep. Selene visits him in his dream.It feels sad because it's probably true.
>>287610947
>>287610959Compare this to Lilith in the show. The bound goddess. What is Rei, what is Lilith? Why does shattering Shinji's mind and awakening Lilith end and remake the world? Is the story of Endymion and several others. Lilith is also part of the qlippoth. And a lot of EVA is MKULTRA Monarch and SRA type systems. That's why clones are color coded blue eg.
>>287611020
>>287611116Alone, alone. You were always, alone.Too bad, so sad.
>>287611116>>287611169In case you can't tell, they're the same image. Lilith with wings spread and the last frame. 6 on each side, 1 in the middle. they even made her a redhead who stays awake outside the VR dream, in eXistenZ.
>>287610928kaji didnt know about lillith. he gave the embryo to gendo and we see how fast angels grow in that lava episode. the adam to lillith switcheroo was changed very late, for some reason. i still dont understand the point of lillith because we dont even know how the third impact started and her existence is basically filler. also, kaworu goes down to terminal dogma searching for adam but surpise!—before that seele told him about the hand's embryo, confusing. since everything related to it was so vague you can argue it doesnt matter but it is messy anyway
>>287610887>everything is a plot holeEverything seems like that only because it is a way of how storytelling is build in NGE.>it doesnt matterIt matters actually. But only when you look at plot separately from story.In fact, the only thing that matters is the outcome of Instrumentality project which Anno failed to depict for three fucking times in a row
>>287611251Op is, surprisingly, right. People value more the idea of eva that the execution and think characters with dark pasts and well-written development are enough to carry the whatever shit is happening behind them. They are developing thanks to the whatever shit so at least be consistent with it. Well the fans ate the rebuilds like cake so im not surprised
>>287611863>People value more the idea of eva that the execution and think characters with dark pasts and well-written development are enough to carry the whatever shit is happening behind themAs they should, only dumb contrarians care about consistency
>>287611863>Op is rightAt what?He didn't lie to Misato. At ep15 he just thinks of it as a truth and *maybe* because Gendo told him that.By the time Misato gets info via chip from pill it seems that Kaji discovered the truth himself or got close enough to Gendo or Gendo's secret. (which is probably the reason of why he was shot (and apparently the one who did it could be Fuyutsuki)) Anyway none of these can be considered as plot hole because they are not important to the outcome
I liked Evangelion but let's be honest. They certainly made shit up on the go a lot and some of you here are theorycrafting better "plot" than was actually intended.Hell, I'm actually convinced Yui was shrewder than ANY of the other protagonists, and wanted to be absorbed by the Evangelion to become a divine figure, just not aligned with Seele.I prefer to see NGE as, well, a demonstration of deconstruction. It never mattered that anything tie up cleanly. What mattered is to see your "super robot setting" using all the archetype of the genre, but resulting in something that more realistically messed up.Acting like the red blooded main-character like Asuka did, do not give you plot armor.Being the mysterious lancer-type character like Rei was, can mean a truly fucked up origin.Being the son of the mad-scientist defending Earth from alien, doesn't mean being on the good guy side.I also believe the idea of Eva trio being a genderbent take on the regular super-robot trio.
>>287613984>wanted to be absorbed by the Evangelion to become a divine figure, just not aligned with SeeleHer talk with Fuyutsuki in the flashback near the end of EoE lends credence to that idea. She says they were intentionally making Eva a God in man's image, and she then says that Eva will exist after the Earth, the moon, and the sun are all gone. Knowing that would happen before the contact experiment means she likely wanted to be the soul inside the Eva, but then the reasons can all be broken down into wanting to safeguard Shinji, selfish immortality, or some grand preservation of mankind.
>>287613984>Hell, I'm actually convinced Yui was shrewder than ANY of the other protagonists, and wanted to be absorbed by the Evangelion to become a divine figure, just not aligned with Seele.Congratulations, you figured it outNow the real question is...did she tell Gendo beforehand what the result of that experiment was going to be?
asuka>>>rei>misato>>>.................................>>......>>>>>>>mari
>>287614488Misato>Ritsuko>Maya>Rei>Yui>Hikari>Asuka>Mari
>>287613984>>287614231I thought Yui must have been nuts from the beginning because her college work drew Seele and she probably wrote the original instrumentality plan herself. She changed her mind when she had her own kid, just not all the way.
>>287614637I see her as a more successful version of Kaji who found out there was a plan and made herself the one who could write it for SEELE because that's the position that would let you steal the script from them. It's somewhat likely she picked Gendo precisely because he'd never move on from her and had Shinji because her plan called for a pilot.Gendo is obviously not the one in charge because the deviations from SEELE's script never serve his purpose of joining with Yui. He could just let their plan go off flawlessly and meet her. Shinji getting in the robot and becoming the one given a choice about instrumentality doesn't actually matter to Gendo, and if it was supposed to be part of his plan why would he throw Shinji in the trash for a few years? Gendo was working off Yui's plan, and he wasn't filled in entirely on what it was. He couldn't emotionally deal with Shinji and wanted to use Rei to finish everything up, then reaches out to him suddenly when he needs a spare. He had hunches Yui might react to Shinji, but he's always gambling she's going to do something when he throws Shinji into the latest meatgrinder.
>>287611236>kaji didnt know about lillith>kaworu goes down to terminal dogma searching for adam but surpise!—before that seele told him about the hand's embryo, confusingIt's been already explained.>i still dont understand the point of lillith because we dont even know how the third impact startedHave you watched End of Evangelion?
>>287613984>>287614964this is all but explicitly statedgendo is also a gambler in general, people kinda think of him as a schemer and planner but really his main positive quality as a leader is his poker face. he can sit there cold as ice and project total confidence to his underlings while actually taking absurdly risky swings
>>287617462Even without the audio, her voice gives me chills.My favorite thing about that whole backstory bit is that the audience gets it from Fuyutski's PoV tainted by his jealousy of Gendo so that it's really easy to write him off as an asshole who tricked Yui and sacrificed her himself, but the entire time Yui is indicating she's the one controlling Gendo.
>>287617698yeah i think it's really effective how you never quite get a straightforward read of yui, (maybe in EoE i guess) otherwise it's through the eyes of someone with a lot of strong and complex feelings about her, even shinji
Bump.
