>>288024261
He and Hideki Kamiya are the only japs that have never been wrong about anything

>>288024261
He was just kidding

>>288024699
>Hideki Kamiya
What did he say?

>>288024699
>Kamiya
His last successful game was released 22 years ago.

>>288024982
and how long has it been since Torishima's last succesful manga that he editored?

They hated him because people DISTORTED the truth

>>288024261
I love Torishima, he's so funny
And now the manga community has their own Alan Moore

>>288025853
Don't compare Torishima to retarded fat communist

>>288025853
The "manga community" being a bunch of retarded westerners in this case.

Given the absolute deluge of complete and utter trash Toriyama has produced since Torishima was his editor, I came to the unfortunate realization that early Dragon Ball Z would have never been a thing without Torishima, which is the only part anybody actually cares about.

>>288026938
he was against Goku growing up which is something that Toriyama wanted because it would make fights easier to draw though

DB > Z until namek >> buu > namek > everything else > cell

n-nyooo...
https://www.cbr.com/dragon-ball-editor-slams-daima-akira-toriyama-final-anime/

>>288027031
Super is better than Z and DB but worse than GT and Daima

>>288027260
>Super is better than Z and DB
Why do you think so?

>>288027300
Jiren is the best villain in the series.

>>288024699
Kamiya is cringe, and Torishima is wrong about Urasawa being the closest to Tezuka

>>288024992
He hasn't been an editor for a manga since DB you schizo
He moved on to being Editor-in-Chief
1996-2001 he was on charge of Jump, that was a great era

>>288025452
He didn't distort shit

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>>288027260
>>288027310

>>288027031
>boo > namek
No
Namek is the best Z arc

>>288029029
New EiC is literally just following Oda's orders to axe everything and protect Kiyoshi (Oda's assistant/secret son which he gives him 20 cps a year), akane and roboco
No shit he says Oda loves one piece a little too much

>>288024699
He thought One Piece would be a failure. Regardless of what you think about its quality, he's dead wrong.

>>288029271
And this is why endless generals like /wsj/ were huge mistakes. It birthed actual schizos like this.

>>288024261
>>288024699
Based Torishima

- He was strongly against making Goku an adult. He was seriously worried it would kill DB's sales.
- He hated how Toei handled the Piccolo Daimao fight. The team was the same one from Dr. Slump who are great at comedy but sucks at fight scenes. This was one of the low points.
- Because of that mess, they decided to rebrand the franchise with Dragon Ball Z and bring in a new team.
- The team who worked on Z is the same one that worked on Saint Seiya.
- Torishima considers these two moments the toughest in Dragon Ball's entire history.
- The actual reason it's called Z is because Toriyama thought Z was the last letter of the alphabet, so nothing more would come out after it.
- When DB ended, the manga industry crashed down. According to him, GT was made because otherwise half the industry would lose their jobs.
- On the subject of Dragon Ball Daima, Torishima made it no secret to express his disdain and said: "Daima is shit. Everyone at Toei hates me. Daima betrays Dragon Ball; it's slow, stupid and the first episode is useless. I have no idea how it was approved in the first place."
- Torishima thinks old manga are much better than modern manga.
- Torishima says today's manga suck because they rarely take the actual print into account. They don't take into consideration the two pages of a spread and he blames smartphones for it.
- Torishima also criticized modern manga heavily. He says most current series are overloaded with narration and explanations. A proper manga page should be readable in just 3 seconds, echoing the philosophy of the Father of Manga, Osamu Tezuka.
- According to Torishima, Weekly Shonen Jump (and manga in general) became much wordier as the readership aged. Mangaka began writing for adults instead of kids, changing the whole style.
- He thinks One Piece sucks because it's no longer really a manga for kids due to that.
- Torishima doesn't think there's a single good manga today.

>>288029452
>- He was strongly against making Goku an adult. He was seriously worried it would kill DB's sales.
He was wrong about this and admitted it

Other based things he did
-Criticized Sakaguchi for Final Fantasy not being good enough(particularly the villains) because he wanted FF to be a rival for DQ
>Came up with the idea for Chrono Trigger and pushed hard for it

>>288029452
Also he told Toriyama to be a character designer for Dragon Quest

>>288029677
>>288029662
Post more Toriyama and Torishima lore

>>288029716
There's a lot of stuff
Too lazy to post it

>>288029452
>Mangaka began writing for adults instead of kids, changing the whole style.
I hate how true this is

>>288029881
To be honest that is just sugarcoating things
I'm 31 but that doesn't make Nu Piece any less unreadable
Nu Piece fails as a manga

Other series getting wordier also doesn't make them any more adult
It just means they are made my mediocre mangaka who overuse dialog as a crutch, and who don't trust their dumb audience to understand their poorly drawn and poorly conveyed slop

So yeah, Torishima is just being nice rather than just calling them for the piles of shit they are

>>288024261
literal who?

>>288030088
With Toriyama the most important man in manga/anime in the last 50 years
You wouldn't be an anime fan if not for Torishima

>>288030088
Old man that want to be relevant in the holy year of 2026

>>288030088
>>288030125
Samefag cuck

>>288030088
Can somebody give actual qrd? It's really ass to google info about producer.

>>288030122
I doubt it when I only took an interest after Death Note
>>288030134
Guess again

>>288029452
>Torishima thinks old manga are much better than modern manga.
Opinion, not an objective statement
>Torishima says today's manga suck because they rarely take the actual print into account. They don't take into consideration the two pages of a spread and he blames smartphones for it.
He read modern One Piece and use that to generalize the whole scene
>According to Torishima, Weekly Shonen Jump (and manga in general) became much wordier as the readership aged. Mangaka began writing for adults instead of kids, changing the whole style
Read CoroCoro then. Japanese kids still love that magazine nowadays.
>Torishima doesn't think there's a single good manga today.
He ought to read outside of WSJ too.

>>288030217
>Japanese kids still love that magazine nowadays.
Yeah, because the target audience for that is even lower than Jump.
Which should be around 13. But instead the average is 18.

>>288030172
>I doubt it when I only took an interest after Death Note
Death Note would probably not even exist if not for Torishima and Toriyama
Torishima and Toriyama created modern manga/anime and Dragon Ball made the medium popular internationally too
The moment that Toriyama dropped Dr. Slump to the public the whole industry changed, before that manga was a whole other ball game

You don't understand the domino effect the Torishima/Toriyama duo had on Japanese pop culture as a whole
Shonen Jump went from 2.8 mllion readers in end of 1979(shortly before Dr. Slump premiered in January 1980) to 6.53 million readers in 1995
Toriyama and Torishima started all that with Dr. Slump and continued with Dragon Ball, and in other forms of entertainment with stuff like Dragon Quest in video games which basically birthed the Japanese RPG and had a gigantic impact in Japanese culture

Again, none of the series you love(which will most likely be post-Toriyama) are not a given that they would even exist in a world where these two didn't exist

>>288030217
>He read modern One Piece and use that to generalize the whole scene
Not true
Torishima knows what he's talking about
He still actively reads manga
He namedropped Hirayasumi as the only current series which feels relatable

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Honestly the double spread accusation riles me. Yes there are bad ones out there but almost all mangaka nowadays, even those that work digitally, still respect the gutter line.

>>288030317
>You don't understand the domino effect the Torishima/Toriyama duo had on Japanese pop culture as a whole

Explain more please

>>288030344
Nah you have to go into cherrypicking mode to even find those terrible spreads. Also no comment on Hirayasumi, it's a good manga.

>>288030217
Corocoro is for 7 year olds. Jump is supposed to aim for the 9-12 crowd.

I don't know, I mean guy really don't want to serialize One Piece back in the day.

retarded thirdies fellate elderly man, got it

>>288029418
>Someone was wrong once 30 years ago? That means literally nothing they say can ever be right again!
Not how it works, retard.

>>288029662
>-Criticized Sakaguchi for Final Fantasy not being good enough(particularly the villains) because he wanted FF to be a rival for DQ
For clarification, this happened after FF3 and Sakaguchi admitted he was right, that his criticism came from a place of knowledge of someone who thoroughly played his games. IV came to be the result of that.

>>288030344
>>288030385
I'm a massive Torishima fan and I have no idea what he's on about Hirayasumi. Perhaps the manga changed after I dropped it, but I ended up dropping it when it ended up becoming yet another dragged on love triangle drama romcom.

>>288030447
He constantly makes fun of himself for misjudging One Piece like that. He knows he's not perfect, but he still knows what he's talking about better than most.

>>288030480
He was absolutely right, FF3's story and villains are awful.

>>288029452
>- Torishima says today's manga suck because they rarely take the actual print into account. They don't take into consideration the two pages of a spread and he blames smartphones for it.
>- Torishima also criticized modern manga heavily. He says most current series are overloaded with narration and explanations. A proper manga page should be readable in just 3 seconds, echoing the philosophy of the Father of Manga, Osamu Tezuka.
I can see where he's coming from, but personally, I've been reading a lot more manga nowadays than when I was a rugrat, and been enjoying it a lot more too. Lot of new artstyles nowadays that are trying something fresh, even if the stories aren't 100% unique. But I'm an adult now, so I guess I kinda prove his point.
>- He thinks One Piece sucks because it's no longer really a manga for kids due to that.
Absolutely based king opinion. Nikatards and sakugafags seething in 120 frames per second.

>>288030354
Go look at manga pre-Toriyama
The quality standards were much lower
There was also the whole manga vs gekiga thing

Toriyama changed all that(in less popular alternative circles Otomo as well around the same time) when he premiered Dr. Slump
A new more artistic and individualistic movement started with him

Shortly after that we have stuff like Hisashi Eguchi's ''Stop!! Hibari-kun!'', Hara's/Buronson's Hokuto no Ken, Tsukasa Hojo's Cat's Eye and City Hunter etc.

Dr. Slump's massive popularity(20 million copies sold in 1st year) spearheaded a manga revolution which allowed new blood to spread their wings instead of sticking with the old manga industry conventional art styles from 70s and before that the manga industry kept sticking to for decades

If not for Toriyama, manga and anime would continue looking like Speed Racer and would never become popular with international crowds
As such, in that kind of world, I struggle to see Death Note existing

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>>288029452
Honestly, that's pretty tame compared to some other WSJ editors

>>288030480
>For clarification, this happened after FF3 and Sakaguchi admitted he was right, that his criticism came from a place of knowledge of someone who thoroughly played his games. IV came to be the result of that.
Actually IV kinda underperformed too because Amano wasn't popular with Jump's audience
So Torishima called Gooch and told him they need to do something about this, that they need to advertise FF5 differently(show some of the story beats to the audience to get the audience's attention) and FF5 then sold a 2.5 million copies or so which was significantly more than FF4

>>288029452
>According to Torishima, Weekly Shonen Jump (and manga in general) became much wordier as the readership aged. Mangaka began writing for adults instead of kids, changing the whole style.
True. Its not just manga problem either. Western comics those days are made more for 30 something adults that stuck to their teenages heroes rather than for young readers.

>>288030492
Well he said that it's relatable, didn't read anything about him calling it good

I don't agree with Torishima on everything(for example his praise of Urasawa, saying Urasawa is the closest to Tezuka or something along those lines) but for the most part it's crazy how much we agree

such a kind smile but the eyes deeply haunt me
voids

>>288030534
>but personally, I've been reading a lot more manga nowadays than when I was a rugrat,
Because it's more easily accessible nowadays for foreigners like you

>Lot of new artstyles nowadays that are trying something fresh
Oh this is fucking rich
No there fucking aren't
Too many series having nu-calartsesque art, especially on Jump
Looks like pixivslop
Modern mangaka can no longer make memorable male character designs anymore either
It's all generic Kiritoclone self-inserts or fujoshit
This is because they are terminal coomers who are obsessed with drawing anime girls

>Wanpiss
I just have to say that Wanpiss is no longer for anyone but the blindest of fanboys
I'm an adult but Nupiss is just horrific to the eyes, get that shit away from me

Torishima is sugarcoating it with the ''adult'' stuff
He's definitely right that Nupiss feels like a storyboard for Toei's anime which is where he really zeroes in in some of the major problems

>>288030590
Yeah he's sugarcoating things if anything(except with Daima which he absolutely hates kek)

>>288030637
>Western comics those days are made more for 30 something adults that stuck to their teenages heroes rather than for young readers.
You mean American comics
And American comics have been mostly capeshit since the 50s
Which is sad when you had absolute masters like Winsor McCay in the early 1900s

>>288030620
Nonetheless, IV was a massive improvement and step-up in regards of storytelling and characters.
It's not like IV bombed either. 1.5mil is crazy good for the time.

>>288030708
>Too many series having nu-calartsesque art, especially on Jump
What is that supposed to mean?

>>288029881
>>288030637
The kidult is gonna cause a massive crisis in a decade or two. It's all fine and dandy for now, but sooner or later they're gonna start hitting their forties, fifties and even sixties and their bodies won't be able to keep up anymore.
On top of kids not being born in enough quantities, they aren't being nurtured nor taken care about properly nor is knowledge and know-how being passed down either so all sorts of crafts are experiencing slow degradation and stagnation.

>>288030708
>Too many series having nu-calartsesque art
What the actual fuck are you talking about?

>>288030708
>Too many series having nu-calartsesque art, especially on Jump
>Looks like pixivslop
Seems like an exclusive Jump problem. It's observable in the past couple of years that the overall quality of art in Jump has deteriorated.

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>>288030217
>>288030344
People keep misreading the two page comment, it's not about spreads, it's about two page composition.
And he's right. I don't tend to read a lot of manga because most of it is just very boring to read and feel like they had minimal considerations for how two pages would look together. Go open up any part of Dragon Ball and you can see how every two pages is structured well to have the reader's eyes flowing in the right direction.
Torishima spoke about why this could be before where too many mangaka are inspired by other mangaka rather than other mediums and real life. Araki had a similar thesis.
If you only read manga, you're gonna just make manga the way you "expect" it to be, and a lot of people now expect manga to be something casually read on a phone. Toriyama didn't have these expectations because he didn't read manga, and it led to some unique page compositions like this one, where he uses the second page as a tone setter for the first. Obviously the return is going to be the first thing you see, and a manga reader making manga would put that as the first page for the reveal- but the first and second page are part of the same composition. He did a similar thing with Freeza's surprise return during the fight on Namek.

>>288030767
Compared to DQIV the year before it's not impressive
Also that's lifetime sales which FF3 also sold similar numbers(1.4 million overall)
FFIV sold 200K on its first day, whereas FFV sold 900K
Huge jump

When Tori criticized Gooch, Gooch was there to promote FFIV
FFIV didn't improve numbers from FFIII that much, so then Torishima contacted Sakaguchi and told him they need to think of a new way to advertise the next Final Fantasy.
After they did that FFV took off big time nearing DQV sales.

>>288030920
>After they did that FFV took off big time nearing DQV sales.

What went right with FFV?

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>>288030916
Then it's more bizarre then. Mangaka that serialized in magazine still storyboard in two-page structure with the intention of page flipping.

>>288030772
>What is that supposed to mean?
Look at Ichi the Witch and especially stuff like Hertz
Also anything that has 2 colored hair(especially on male characters)
These mofos think they are Kazuki Takahashi but they can't pull that shit off without it looking like tranny garbage

>>288030862
No, it's a problem in other magazines too
Shit like Bokuyaba from Sunday for example
My god what an ugly ass manga
Too many pixiv hacks with no formal art training

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>>288030968
Ichi's nothing like Takahashi or like calarts, it's a shojo-style going for soft pastels and a more magical approach to its art. Whether or not it succeeds at that better than Act Age is debateable, as is whether it's unique or not, but it's probably the least offensive example you could have pulled out of modern Jump.

>>288030996
Bokuyaba is great, you massive faggot.
Also it's not even in Sunday, not even same publisher as Sunday.

Is this interview actually posted anywhere or do I have to rely on a message board post containing an English translation of an Italian translation of a Japanese interview?

You should take a break from this thread and look back at what calart really is.

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>>288030939
Shit google translate
https://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/April_4,_2016_-_Denfa_Minico_Kazuhiko_Torishima_Interview.html

Picrel
More info on the link
It has the OG interview on moonrunes and that shit google translate
Dracula = Dragon Quest btw

>>288024261
the truth that dragonball shit is for kids? how is saying one piece is for adults bad? its actually makes dragonball more shit

>>288031183
both are manga from a teen-oriented magazine

>>288031053
Pixiv = Japanese deviantart/calarts
I call it calarts to insult it, but Usazaki can't draw for shit
Act Age was ugly too, it's like an amateur pixiv hack trying to emulate Reiji Miyajima who is actually a skilled draftsman

The Kazuki Takahashi lines was aimed at any manga which has character with 2 colored hair
So many manga nowadays attempt this but they end up looking like unappealing tranny Vtuber shit
It's especially terrible when they try to do it with male characters

Another one I despise is Oshi no Ko
It's basically a polished Act Age but 100x more annoying looking
I especially hate the stars in the characters' pupils
It's the most zoomer looking shit I've ever seen
It makes me want to punch the characters in the face
At least Act Age didn't have that obnoxious shit I suppose

>>288031060
Bokuyaba is shit and ugly as fuck
You're right it's Champion not Sunday, my mistake
The point remains

>>288031183
Found the wanpisser
Torishima is just being nice with the ''adult'' crap
What he means is that only old ass fanboys who read this trash for 30 years are willing to put up with Oda's chickenscratch scribble bullshit anymore

>>288029452
> When DB ended, the manga industry crashed down. According to him, GT was made because otherwise half the industry would lose their jobs.
What industry? GT was an anime original, it didn’t affect manga.

>>288031305
>Oshi no Ko
>polished Act Age
You're too kind. I still feel like a sucker for being strung up in that shit way too long, plot's way too much nonsense crammed into one series and uses shock value to keep its readers reading. I finally woke up when Aka did a fake-out on Akane dying, just to break her and Aqua up and keep the relationship war still going, and then when Aqua leaks the twins' birthright secret just to stop the media from calling Kana a stupid ho, I was able to finally break away, completely retarded. I heard the ending was total shit and ended up as misery porn, but can't confirm that. Never get divorced, Aka's a total example of that.
>I especially hate the stars in the characters' pupils
Soon as the anime came out and everyone was Yoasobi-posting for months, I started to share this opinion.

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>>288031163
Chrono Trigger creators Hironobu Sakaguchi, Yuji Horii and Kazuhiko Torishima were not pleased that the confirm button changed to X to confirm instead of O to confirm for the PS5 in Japan!

Sakaguchi: “Now, X is confirm, what the heck is that about?”

(They all laugh and there is even some clapping)

Sakaguchi: “I think you’ve got to be kidding me, right?”

Torishima: “Circle is confirm!”
Sakaguchi: “That’s right!”
Torishima: “I can’t believe it!”
Sakaguchi: “I really can’t believe it.”
Torishima: “I totally agree with that.”

Horii: “Ah Sony…”

Extremely based

>>288031421
>GT was an anime original, it didn’t affect manga.
Man you are fucking retarded
Manga and anime inter-related
When DB manga ended Jump mag lost almost a million sales and a lot of animators risked losing their job after the DBZ anime ended less than a year after

Toei were desperate to continue DB, so GT happened

DB was worth 30 billion dollars by 2004
In similar veins: Why do you think Boruto was made as soon as Naruto ended? Why do you think Pierrot kept milking Shippuden for another 2 years with fillers after the manga ended?
It's the exact same situation
Only in the 90s Boruto would have been axed early like GT because 90s industry was still way healthier compared to 2010s

>>288030916

Torishima left around Piccolo Daimao. The editor that followed was the one who pushed Toriyama to do more world ending threats because that boosted Dragon Ball's popularity during Piccolo and is what led to Saiyajin and Freeza in particular.

After King Piccolo/Piccolo Jr., Vegeta & Freeza, the fans would have been completely disappointed if Android 19 & 20 were the big villains of the next arc. Toriyama wanted to make the next villains go back to having goofier designs, but Torishima knew that's not what the fans wanted.

At least in Cell's arc the editors were the ones bitching about the designs "and oldman and a fatman?", "just two teenagers?", "he looks too bland, but he still can transform right?" "he looks like a moron!". If anything, Kondo and Torishima were the ones that made Toriyama go for more serious designs.

Toriyama said he originally had more plans for Semi Perfect Cell but decided to rush him to Perfect Form after Torishima complained

Toriyama changed the villains from 19/20 to 16/17/18 in response to a phone call from Torishima, who was not his editor at the time, but Toriyama respected his opinions regardless.

You can see the precise moment that editor left during Cell, when Toriyama introduced Satan and had more comedic beats like Kaio-sama's death.

>>288031557
>When DB manga ended Jump mag lost almost a million sales and a lot of animators risked losing their job after the DBZ anime ended less than a year after

Is this why they made so many filler episodes and movies?

>>288031424
I was talking about the art style being more polished
No doubt whoever draws Oshi no Ko is a better drafstman than Shiro
Although they also made the art style far more obnoxious

My only big problem with some current manga is that the paneling is atrocious and it's too hard to understand the action.

>>288031507
Japanese "communication" is baffling. It's like they just keep repeating each others statements and going ohhhh ahhh in some weird perpetual circlejerk.

>>288031507
>Horii: “Ah Sony…”
Kekaroo

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It's strange that Torishima disliked Demon Slayer, as that series is probably the closest to what he seemingly wants out of manga: very basic, simple, straightforward, and accessible, especially compared to JJK.

>>288030637
>>288030637
American comics were always wordy, since they were always very short (rather than being bundled in large compilations like shounen jump or volumes, with compiled volumes only starting being released decades later) and wanted to keep kids reading each comic for a while.

>>288031557
>When DB manga ended Jump mag lost almost a million sales and a lot of animators risked losing their job after the DBZ anime ended less than a year after
And GT wouldn’t have affected JUMP’s sales, and the animators would have had other anime to work on, it’s not like DBZ was the only thing.

>>288031589
>Torishima left around Piccolo Daimao.
No
Tori left after 23rd TB

>>288031631
Well the filler episodes and movies were made during the manga's run.
But DBZ didn't have that much filler episodes, it was just poorly paced like One Piece to not catch up to the manga.

Toei didn't want to give up their cashcow. Shueisha also wanted to continue making money from DB too of course. That's why GT was made.
But it didn't work out because GT was shit.

>>288031715
It's not strange at all
Kimetsu is a poorly drawn amateurish manga relying on exposition telling you what's happening in the battle because the author can't draw for shit
It was entirely carried by the anime

Trying to compare it to Touch is a disgrace
Touch is brilliantly drawn and holds up to this day

>>288031715
I can't speak for Torishima, but me personally, it screams "style over substance" like no other series that came out of Nipland. Basic bitch samurai demon story that opts for drawing cool special attacks and spreads to disguise the blandness of the story and characters. I coulda sworn Torishima was commenting specifically on the anime for this, in which he's completelty vindicated, because it really popularized this trend of adding slowdown and sakuga to every single series and scene, filling colors and shit all over the screen, making characters warp all over to show speed, animating every single frame of hair flowing - it's plain ol' overstimulation shit made to entertain everyone that the globalists locked in their homes.

I'm genuinely curious as to what Torishima thinks of Kagurabachi, because that's just the final form of Demob Slayer's most obnoxious aspects. I'm still waiting on everyone to finally say "Guys, we were joking, this actually sucks, we were pretending it was cool the whole time, like in the beginning, when we posted that key art and were making Morbius memes over how edgy it looked."

>>288031755
>And GT wouldn’t have affected JUMP’s sales
Shueisha would get their cut if GT was successful
Merch sales, maybe video game tie-ins and so on too

But GT ended up being a flop so yeah

>and the animators would have had other anime to work on
There would be less animators employed and the anime they would work on wouldn't be long-runners and would not be as profitable
You really don't seem to understand how business works and you're not thinking of the industry as a whole

Remember, this was also before Pokemon anime was a thing
Pokemon anime coming out and blowing up in popularity was a huge relief for the industry(until Porygon happened and then things looked dire for a while until it came back the following year)

>>288031853
No he basically said UFOTable did a good job but that the source manga was shit
This is basically a fact because it didn't blew up in popularity until the anime

I remember Kimetsu being shilled from Togashi and 2 other mangaka early on in 2016 and it still sold jackshit until the anime 3 years later
Disgusting

>>288031911
>But GT ended up being a flop so yeah

Why did GT flop?

>>288031321
Bokuyaba is cute and lovely

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Z movies were supervised by Toriyama and he designed most of the movie characters

>Toriyama-sensei drew all the enemy characters, such as Coola and Neiz, up to and including a height-comparison chart. They even came with colors, so there was no need to change them. There would be no point in changing them. (laughs) It made it a breeze being the one making them, so I was grateful.

>The enemies this time were all Toriyama-sensei’s designs. I was amazed every time at the abundance of characters Sensei could pull out of thin air.

— Minoru Maeda

The absolute GOAT

>>288031951
Because it was shit

>>288031972
The art is ugly

>>288031951
The same reason why everything after a
Z ended up being shit. It became too self referential and too afraid to try anything truly new. Everything after Z is just a retelling of a prior ararcc

>>288031975
He didn't supervise them, he just contributed some character designs. He's later gone on record saying he didn't like Toei's original writing very much, especially not the way they wrote Goku as Superman Jesus.

>>288031589
You mixed up the story on the Cell arc. It went
>Gero & #19
Torishima called to complain when he saw them in the magazine.
>#17 & #18
Torishima again.
>Cell (Second Form)
That was Kondo, who said he "looks like a moron- but surely, he transforms?" if I recall.
I also imagine Toriyama always planned for more jinzouningen in the arc and was just starting with #19 and #20. We'll never actually know, but I doubt someone who had written lengthy arcs would begin one by immediately introducing and then fighting the main antagonists. Generally though, Toriyama's guidance from Torishima was always good, in addition to Toriyama himself having a good sense for what works and what doesn't. Some examples
>cutting the main story of DB short to switch over to a tournament to fill out the remainder of his planned time for it
>after 12 chapters of "Goku Show" DB in the RRA arc, Toriyama returns to the two biggest members of the side cast, Kuririn and Bulma to liven up things
>taking from martial arts films by having the next antagonist group be a rival school to add natural drama
etc etc
Hell, people blame everyone but Toriyama for Gohan being short-changed in the Boo arc, when that was something Toriyama readily admitted to doing himself, and I get why. Gohan wasn't the type of protagonist he liked writing and would've been very boring to follow compared to a Goku, Arale, or yes, even Trunks and Goten.

>>288031340
holy cope, keep reading kiddy manga

>We need a manga for kids!
ENTER KIYOSHI, kek

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>>288030916
Well, print is dying. This would hardly be surprising.

At least he doesn't suddenly shill modern Manhwa garbages.

>>288032953
Judging from his comments, he would probably gouge his eyes and then shot himself the moment he sees a single Webtoon "page"

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>>288031715
animeonlys have no idea how much the Demon Slayer anime elevated the source material, pic related

>>288031853
he compared the Demon Slayer manga to raw coffee beans while saying that the anime is processed coffee beans ready for consumption

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>>288029452
Being against making Goku an adult is the only thing I hardly disagree with him. My favorite thing in DB is how the time progresses compared to other manga of the same genre. While in most shounen the MC begins as a kid or in his early teens and finishes the story as a young adult or in his late teens, DB is still the only one where the MC begins as a kid and ends as a grandfather.

>>288033164
>coffee tastes like dogshit
>millenials and zoomers are obsessed with it and keep taking pictures of coffee all dressed-up and covered in sugary bullshit and talking about how cool it is and how pretty it looks ans how they can't live without it
Actually genius comparison when you read into it.

The "calarts" poster went completely unhinged. Try that again without the buzzwords, you are commiting the same nonsense as the average modern writer, you are making crap that's only pleases you thinking this is some kind of soapbox, when in reality anyone seriously discussing this thing here despises thay shit.

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What if they adapt the original 3 hour script Toriyama wrote for Broly for Super kai?

>>288033312
It's kind of baffling since you'd think after Toriyama's death they'd be marketing in a big way having something like that.

>>288033312
I hope, the biggest flaw in that movie is how Bardock's death has 0 emotional weight compared to the original OVA

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>>288030916
>it's about two page composition.
That's still a thing, a necessity even, in modern manga.

>>288025853
Moore is an influential writer, Torishima is known as the guy who tortured Toriyama and now is looking for scraps.

>>288026293
Moore's spit is worth more than this leech you brown faggot.

>>288024261
What does he even do anymore other than yell at clouds?

>>288033290
You have not drank real coffee in your life.

>>288033867
Go fuck a fish you crazy commie

>>288033106
>words words words
how the fuck did this crap sell 200m?

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>>288030492
>I'm a massive Torishima fan and I have no idea what he's on about Hirayasumi
I think I have an idea

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>>288037097

>>288033212
Hindsight is 20/20.
It's easy to say that making Goku grow-up was the right choice now because of how well it turned out and yet even now those same worries that plagued him back then are mainstay in the industry now. From a business perspective, it's a risky as fuck maneuver. Why do you think, for instance, every "timeskip" is just 2 years on average or something like that and is treated as some sort of insane revolutionary hype as fuck change to the status quo?
People are finicky. Recognizability is important. It's the same reason why they dropped the RoF outfits back to the Z ones.

>>288037203
In DB's case the timeskip was necessary because Goku having a chubby kid body made action harder to draw so he needed an adult body to unlock Toriyama's full potential

>>288037611
Sure, but again, hindsight is 20/20. It's a risky business decision that could easily destroy the entire's character appeal for the audiences because of how drastic the design change could be.
>WHERE'S MUH CUTE CHUBBY GOKU I HATE HIM NOW THAT HE'S AN UGLY ADULT FUCKING DROPPED
There's a timeline where that happened. Where Z got a Boruto-tier butchering.
We've seen series gone to hell for far smaller changer in the character design of the main characters.

>>288034863
real coffee hasn't been tried

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>>288037766
It's risky but necessary if you want to convey progression and not feel like the characters are stuck on a limbo. Fore example I hate how in Gash Bell 2 Gash is doomed to being a eternal manlet just because he holds the curse of being a mascot character and needs to be cute forever even though his father is kaiju-sized.

>>288038351
At the end of the day, all of this is a business. No matter how much love to pretend otherwise.
For the sake of the artist, and for the sake of the art itself, it may be necessary, but we all know pockets are more important at the end of the day.

is this thread about MTL mistranslation?

これも誤訳か語解釈、切り取りの最たる例で、鳥嶋さんは「(国にはそれぞれ土着の文化や習慣、風習がある。だから喜怒哀楽のポイントやツボも国や文化によって違う(それが面白い)。だからこそ)日本の漫画は日本人にしか描けないし、例えばイタリアの漫画はイタリアの漫画家にしか描けないだろう。だから(それぞれの国の漫画家は)日本の漫画の模倣をする必要は全くなくて、むしろその土地の文化を汲んだ新しくて誰も見たこともないようなワクワクするオリジナル作品を作ってほしいし、そうあってほしいって話したんですよ。

Or just typical shounenwar schizo shit?

>>288038439
Shounen wars of course

>a problem is that Mangaka began writing fo adults instead of kids
Sure, but what kids? Remember your birth rate crisis? There are no kids to read manga now, its obvious they would change their focus to adults
And this is a global problem, every adult is a manchild nerd now and it will be worse in some years
>JJK, KnY and CSM are shit
I agree with CSM. KnY and JJK are inoffensive but CSM is just ugly and gross
>Everyone at Toei hates me
Kek

>>288033867
>leech

Let's be honest Dragon Ball would've been a failure if not for Torishima. Also, reminders that Toriyama was in the Paradise Papers leak of 2017 for using tax havens.

>>288033312
>3 hour movie script by Toriyama

May Toriyama rest in peace, but I never found his writing, especially post Z, to be engaging at all. Worse because I think his humor sucks too.

>>288024261
Well back in the day maybe.

>>288024261
He had an interview with Miura 10 years ago
https://www.crunchyroll.com/news/features/2016/8/12/feature-berserk-discussion-explores-kentar-miuras-roots
https://www.crunchyroll.com/news/features/2016/9/22/feature-part-2-of-berserk-discussion-urges-miura-to-try-a-new-story

>Recently, Kentaro Miura got in contact with me on doing an interview about Berserk. So I sat down and read the whole series to prepare for that. What I told him in that interview is that if he had met me much earlier, Berserk could have been much better and probably finished by now, with you working on something new instead.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2016/10/15/kazuhiko-torishima-on-shaping-the-success-of-dragon-ball-and-the-origins-of-dragon-quest/

More recently
>Matsuyama: I'd like to ask you one thing. In Berserk, Casca finally awakens.
>Torishima: I'm not really interested.
>Matsuyama: What?! It's been 22 years, Casca.
>Torishima: I told Miura-san himself that I don't really like the way the story of Berserk has developed since "Eclipse". To be honest, I'm not interested in it as a reader, so I haven't read it. Sorry (laughs).
>Matsuyama: You're from Hakusensha, right?
>Torishima: I'm now the chairman, so I no longer have direct responsibility on site (laughs). But... not finishing the drawing when it was in its prime, and drawing it now in the flow of the story, may be good for the fans, but I think most people will feel like "So what?" It may sound blunt, but you can't do the same manga for 10 or 20 years. The reason is that a weekly magazine has 50 issues a year. 50 stories. So, if you do it for 10 years, that's 500 stories. So what stories are not completed?

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>>288031589
>Toriyama said he originally had more plans for Semi Perfect Cell but decided to rush him to Perfect Form after Torishima complained
That's kind of a shame, I was not much of a fan of 2nd cell design either but do agree that part of the arc really could have used something extra

>>288038439
I'd take what Torishima's agent, Naz Chris, says with a grain of salt. She had once asked another fan to remove some Torishima translations that weren't even wrong. I read one of her translations, it didn't change the gist of the fan translation and was just more verbose. So this is just a matter of brushed ego from someone who's never gotten media training, has a team that's never gotten media training, and the lot of them continue to misunderstand the global scale that DB and their statements are on

There are more nuances in her clarification, sure, but the core remains the same and that is, Torishima is against the idea of foreigners drawing manga which is disheartening for international fans who grew up with manga but not a surprise as the Japanese don't want foreigners in their industry and take their jobs. They usually don't let foreigners officially produce manga for their publishers and appoints them to subordinate roles. You have yet to see a manga done by a foreigner breakout.

>>288024699
>never been wrong about anything
He thought Resurrection F was a great script. That film is fucking terrible.

>>288031715
I think this curmudgeonly old fuck just doesn't like manga.

>>288040829
>You have yet to see a manga done by a foreigner breakout.
Boichi is Korean. Ain't many varieties of "foreigner" that the nips hate more than the gooks. I imagine Torishima is absolutely livid that he was allowed to illustrate a manga published in WSJ, and even more so that it was very successful. No number of good points made nor sound insights into the manga industry provided will ever change the fact that Torishima is a bitter, miserable motherfucker.

>>288031972
The protagonist is a pathetic doormat and Anna is an awful partner for allowing him to be humiliated in service to keeping their relationship a secret.

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>>288040829
Its a little humorous that the shonen manga creators themselves heavily parallel the chosen one MCs they write
The shonen MCs get ahead in life due to the combination of a special birth + hardwork + talent

>>288040829
Its not so much about the translation but autism about what they control.

>>288024261
He made a lot of great points like modern manga being too expensive and how awful spreads look in physical format because they are now made with phones and tablets in mind but people are focusing on his dumb boomer takes

>>288042101
That's because most if his good takes on modern manga are gimmes that most any fan of the medium would respond to with, "Yeah, obviously". His boomer takes stand out as being especially deserving of derision because they're just that fucking bad. So it's hardly a surprise the people focus on the dumb shit he says on account if being an old man still stuck in the late 90's who probably doesn't even know how to operate a smart phone, let alone posseses the capacity to understand why people might want to use one to read manga.

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>>288030741
>Winsor McCay
MY man!

>>288042384
>narration attached to literally every panel
Just write a fucking book at that point. Books are great. But excessive narration defeats the purpose of comics as a medium.

>>288042524
I agree.
This was a newspaper comic from 1905, so they were still feeling out the medium.

>>288042566
Yeah, looking at some of his other stuff it doesn't seem indicative out his style on the whole and looks like an outlier. It's definitely early enough to be given a pass. Certainly more of a pass than Togashi will ever receive for doing that shit throughout most of HxH because he made a power system so fucking convoluted that the only way to understand it at times is to affect narration on the panels that literally explain what's happening since it wouldn't be readable through illustration alone.

>>288042249
> that most any fan of the medium would respond to with, "Yeah, obviously"
Hunter x Hunter is a globally beloved manga work.

>>288042964
And even the people who love it consistently point out that it has issues with excessive narration.

>>288024261
Hope this old fart kicks the bucket soon

>>288043155
You can't love it and find that to be an issue anon. Its an integral part of it.

And that's assuming what you say is true which it isn't

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>>288030916
Same pic btw. That composition is basic and what you said there applied to this page as well. Toriyama is great, I'm not denying that, but my god the glaze that you will construct to elevate him sometimes is hilarious.

>>288024261
Senile old man.

>>288032355
>He's later gone on record saying he didn't like Toei's original writing very much, especially not the way they wrote Goku as Superman Jesus.

Heck, he said this back then. It's not a new thing. there's an interview quote from 95 where he complains about how Toei writes Goku.

>>288031853
Kagurabachi really does feel like a shitpost parody of shonen manga. We can't expect much from zoomers, though.

>>288045200
the MC dressing like a school shooter makes it hard to take seriously

>>288024261
The scrubbed Dragon Quest interview still makes me kek, total burgerfat death

>>288033212
>>288037203
The riskier thing to do was shelving Goku for like 75% of the manga. I'm surprised Japanese readers were okay with thar

>>288046275
I don't remember Goku being gone for like 300+ chapters.

>>288030939
Lenna and Faris then even a loli replacement party member.

>>288039613
Early Dragon Ball was actually funny. Everything comical you remember watching Z we have Toei to thank.

If we're going to talk about two page composition can you start bullying the storytime threads into doing two page posts?

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>>288046619
I kid you not there are some faggots that despise when you do storytime in two-pages structure. Their brain were already fried with all the scrolling from the smartphones.

>>288024261
I hope and I aspire to become a professional hater the way Torishima is. And the way he commands attention or just makes the community seethe at his presence is a sight to behold.

>>288029881
no they're writing for midwit manchildren who thinks walls of text or unnecessarily complex power systems that just ends with plot armor is mature writing.

>>288024261
he came back from retirement just to surpass Miyazaki as the grumpiest motherfucker in Japan

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>"NOOOOO! STOP QUOTING EVERYTHING MY BOSS SAID YOU DISGUSTING GAJIN!!! WHY WON'T ANYONE HIRE HIM?!?!?!"

>>288046275
Because Goku then arriving to rescue everyone after the arc threat and dangerous situation has been slowly and carefully built-up through the rest of the cast = hype.
It's a certainly much more effective method than giving every single character their own meaningless literally who minion so that everyone can have "their moment" that ultimately amounts to nothing in the long run and doesn't matter at all whatsoever and only serves to completely murder the pacing and drag the story on.
And for burger retards to latch on and then start crying about MUH POTENTIAL MUH SCRIMBO BIMBLO HAD SO MUCH CHARACTER POTENTIAL THEY GOT LE WASTED THEY DESERVED TO HAVE 100 FOCUS CHAPTERS THE AUTHOR WASTED THEM BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW
Maybe it was because Toriyama was a lazy faggot, maybe he just knew his limits and knew there was only so many characters he could truly handle, but whatever the reason was, the result is the same. Sometimes, less is more.

>>288041488
Most pr teams would prefer the translated statements that get spread to be their own approved translations, there's nothing unusual about this.

>>288040829
>So this is just a matter of brushed ego from someone who's never gotten media training, has a team that's never gotten media training, and the lot of them continue to misunderstand the global scale that DB and their statements are on
Nigga, you seriously think someone who's worked on this business for like close to a century and has accomplished more than everyone in this thread multiplied x100 combined doesn't know any of those things?
He just doesn't give a fuck. He's old, retired, and just messing around with his pals on a livestream show. Making retards like you butthurt is just the cherry on top of the case.

>You have yet to see a manga done by a foreigner breakout.
Gee, I wonder why.
Bet you'll say it's because of a heckin' racism. Too bad we all know the real reason why, even you, no matter how much you pretend otherwise.

My question is why is he the only former editor that seems starve for attention?

>>288049186
He's an absolute industry legend that was EiC of the world's best selling manga magazine at the time it was selling the best. Dude's famous for a reason.

>>288049050
Who the fuck even is this Naz guy?

>>288049224
It was also during his period that Weekly Shounen Magazine managed to surpass Jump's circulation.

>>288040829
>You have yet to see a manga done by a foreigner breakout.
Love Bullet.
https://www.cbr.com/love-bullet-creator-america-manga-release/

>>288049186
Because he's THE editor.
How many other editors can you even name out of the top of your head? Everyone fucking knows who Torishima was because he's the one who found and made Toriyama and together they pumped out Slump and Dragon, two of the most influential works in the entire industry.
The real question is why retards like you are acting like he's some random and not someone with an extremely storied career.

>>288049050
I'm really baffled at how so many retards genuinely think Toriyama hated Torishima because of Marishito. Isn't it obvious to anyone with two brain cells to rub that that was simply Toriyama fucking with him? Like, do those people even have friends? Do they just not have friends to mess around with?

Do anon in this thread actually read Slump?

>>288030805
>they're gonna start hitting their forties, fifties and even sixties and their bodies won't be able to keep up anymore.
Keep up with what?

>>288049186
Because he wants back in. He's literally seething about how no one wants his he'll with Dragon Ball. Toriyama didn't hire him to run his production company. Toyo doesn't want his help with his manga career. Nobody at Toei is turning to him for Dragon Ball anything.

>>288049277
The anime actually aired and got dubbed locally in my country back then.

>>288024261
So, he's the real creator of DB?

>>288046275
When you think about it, the whole Cell saga was fucking crazy, Goku only had 2 fights in the whole arc and he lost both.

>>288029452
>two pages of a spread and he blames smartphones for it.
i always read on a PC monitor thesedays. yes, webtoons are cancer. look what it did to Clevatess!

otherwise DBZ did sell more than internationally than OG DB, which was basically forgotten.

>>288029662
>>Came up with the idea for Chrono Trigger and pushed hard for it
based and gooder taste

>>288040241
>you can't do the same manga for 10 or 20 years. The reason is that a weekly magazine has 50 issues a year. 50 stories. So, if you do it for 10 years, that's 500 stories. So what stories are not completed?

endless slice of life namek.

>>288049408
>>288049533
Cell saga is Gohan's arc.

>>288024261
He's like John K minus the underage girl grooming

>>288033212
>>288037611
>>288037766
>>288038351
Goku becoming an adult is very much what made Dragon Ball good. It lead to CHANGE, which was one of Dragon Ball's main drive. It also introduced themes of family which carried a lot of DB's longevity and resonated emotionally with many people. Modern shonen going with one 2 years timeskip and one final 5-10 years timeskip for the epilogue is so bad.

>>288049533
>>288049408
Dragon Ball doesn't have that many fights compared to lots of other shonen.

Toriyama was one of the worst George Lucas Syndrome sufferers in the entire industry.

>>288030349
Great artist.

>>288030916
Two pages composition is one thing but it's not that rare. But Toriyama's page to page paneling work is crazy good. I wont say he's entirely peerless but he definitely stands at the top.

>>288046571
This is stupid. Toriyama is incredibly funny. He's a comedy mangaka first, which is what makes his paneling and pacing great. Meanwhile Toei is known for HORRIBLE pacing and flanderization so stupid it's obvious they're writing for 5 years old. Toei is everything wrong with Dragon Ball, besides some iconic soundtracks.

>>288049186
the media gave him a platform 30 years ago and since then the media has stopped being able to make outspoken rabbi figures, so '80s - '90s grandpas like Tomino are all there is

>>288029040
learn to read retard, the PEOPLE distorted

>>288038439
malicious translation on social media is a given

>>288033106
The Kokushibo fight is unfathomably superior to all of Dragonball put together.

>>288031715
A bit harsh on Demon Slayer but based
>>288041054
nah he's right, golden age of manga is over

>>288031853
zoomers and shitskin's obsession with sakuga has ruined anime. JJK is the prime example of this disease.

>>288050553
*was funny
The lamest shittiest Slump joke is still a million times funniest than the greatest Daipa "joke".

>>288051051
Daipa is incredibly boring and sterile. It's really nothing like how early DB used to be.

>>288049270
typical of the terminally online

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>>288050818

>>288051616
Not bait.

Reminder that the social media shonen retard hate of the week is the manga that does exactly what Torishima says. Dandadan has the exact same slapdash week to week celebration of the author's childhood interests as DB by a good but dumb artist and does gimmicky stuff like not using sound effects to put the art front and center.

>>288027031
Namek>Saiyan>Android/Cell>23 Tournament>Piccolo Daimao>22Tournament>Red Ribbon>Buu>21 Tournament>1st Dragon Ball Hunt

>>288046571
>Early Dragon Ball was actually funny.
I doon't find any of the perverted humor in early Dragon Ball funny. I like fanservice as much as the next guy, I just find the gags in that era very Juvinile.

People rag on Torishima for how strict and harsh he was toward Toriyama when he was his editor and during the Android saga, but he's pretty much the reason Dragon Ball is as popular as it is to begin with. Without him, Dragon Ball would have died after the 3rd or 4th arc and fell into obscurity.

>>288051919
>Without him, Dragon Ball would have died after the 3rd or 4th arc and fell into obscurity
You can't say for sure because nobody knows how things would've evolved otherwise. Toriyama was still the one actually driving the show, you could replace Torishima with another editor, you could think Toriyama might have made one or two choices differently, but you can't do this without Toriyama, period. Torishima might have been a good editor (in some regards) and he might have also done some bad in other regards. He was against Goku growing up, ffs.
Basically, you can't take the end result (DB being so successful), which might have happened differently anyway, to prove Torishima was a godsent or something. He might have done good work, but he's still very subject to legitimate criticism.

>>288051939
Toriyama had good ideas, but his direction for the series wasn't keeping the audience interested. People were getting bored and dropping off from the manga during the Red Reibbon saga and Torishima pushed Toriyama to introduced a strong opponent that Goku would spend a few chapters struggling to beat which is how we got Tao Pai Pai. He also saved the anime when it was falling off in ratings during the 22 Tenkaichi Budokai because he realized that the art style was the problem since the producer and much of the staff were carried over from Dr. Slump and were unsuited to handle a series focused on action.

>>288052040
>He also saved the anime when it was falling off in ratings during the 22 Tenkaichi Budokai because he realized that the art style was the problem
The anime artstyle didn't change at that point in time, and the anime always had horrible art, disgusting pacing, and generally speaking was the version you'd watch if your brain was underdeveloped
>he told Toriyama to add Taopaipai
Yes, great job Torishima, nobody would've ever thought of that. Truly a magnificent save.

Again, you can't just look at things in retrospect to fish for glory. If I get someone late by speaking to them for too long but it coincidentally prevents them from being hit by a car, I didn't really save their life.

>>288051867
I accept that japs actually find Dr. Slump, Dragonball, and gintama funny even though they're unfunny to everyone else

>>288052219
They're funny. Toriyama is funnier than your favorite mangaka. It's not even close. Toriyama's sense for paneling and art comes from his comedic roots.

>>288052075
>The anime artstyle didn't change at that point in time, and the anime always had horrible art
That was the problem. The series was becoming more action oriented and brutal, but the anime wasn't accommodating it. Toei didn't relaunch the series until after the Piccolo Jr arc, but they still did it after his advice.

>>288052242
I know you think shit is hilarious

>>288046201
Its probably why he gets so much hate now.
>>288049050
That's actually one of the few times were naz is correct though.
>>288051867
> I just find the gags in that era very Juvinile
They're for 10 year olds.
>>288051939
>You can't say for sure because nobody knows how things would've evolved otherwise.
Then you can't praise anyone for anything.
Not to mention Torishima is literally the reason Toriyama got to make a serialized manga in the first place.

>>288052296
The relaunch didn't help because the anime looked worse in Z.

>>288046201
>>288052419
>Its probably why he gets so much hate now.
What did he say in the Dragon Quest interview?

>>288052321
You have no taste

>>288052816
He and Hori said that they think the whole body type a and b is retarded.

>>288024699
They are the only japs that are able to stop the gaijin from reclining to the maximum level.

Im so glad im an oldman that stopped watching dragonball with Z and does not have an inch of interest of reading all those new series.

>>288052695
>The relaunch didn't help because the anime looked worse in Z.
In what way?

>>288049050
Chainsawman kinda deserves it after the trainwreck that was part 2

Chainsawgod buckbroke these boomers. Imagine ever watching a single episode of dragon balls this shit is like for 5 year olds

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Current manga>>>>>>>>>>>>>boomershit

>>288032825
This is a cope
Manga is dying not print
>but muh digital sales
All niche stuff aimed at older demographics, which means kids/younger gens in Japan are not reading manga

>>288032658
Ah yeah, Wanpiss, the adult manga which never kills off any character

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>>288050818
>The Kokushibo fight is unfathomably superior to all of Dragonball put together.
kys

>>288033867
Moore is some faggot hippie nobody cares about
Torishima along with Toriyama changed the manga/anime and video game industries forever

>>288053628
the only thing I agree with Moore is that the trend of making capeshit nihilistic crap that he himself started with Watchmen is retarded

>>288039490
Why are you faggots so obsessed with Dragon Ball but neglect that Dr. Slump was a mega-hit that changed the entire manga industry before that?

>>288037097
>>288037160
>Anti-Isekai
based

>>288050287
>Goku becoming an adult is very much what made Dragon Ball good.
Shut up you fucking asshole troll.
Dragon Ball was always great from chapter 1.

>>288040829
>which is disheartening for international fans who grew up with manga
*americans you means
Other countries(like France and Italy) have their own respectable comic scenes
It's only amerifat weebs who want to be manga authors

And btw it happened once
Some American spic iirc got published on a niche manga magazine, he was decent, but it wasn't a huge deal or anything

>>288049277
I read Slump. It is hilarious. I don't really have anything to say about any of this shitflinging though.

>>288049577
Namek lasted 87 chapters on the manga, and when you binge-read it feels like 40 chapters especially because the chapters are 15 pages long

Namek being long is an anime meme
Which btw at least for Namek it made sense for it to be long in the anime because they were exploring another planet
Cell and Boo arcs feel much longer in the anime because it's mostly Earth but for whatever reason people never give any shit to those

>>288050003
Enough of these garbage takes
John K is a failed cartoonist
Torishima is the godfather of the modern manga industry since 1980

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>>288053127
OG DB was mostly on model, had better pacing and even animation. DBZ had some of the most disgusting episodes known to man

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>>288051939
I can say for sure because if not for Torishima discovering LAZYyama the faggot would have continues begging his mom for cigarette money.
Toriyama literally owed EVERYTHING he became to Torishima.
That people like you somehow still keep trying to pretend that Toriyama was a unparalleled genius (which he was in some ways but that's not the point) that was fighting the good fight against the evil big bad world that didn't let him ever be the a real artist™ and because he was always fighting against the evil forces of the league of editors which never allowed him to unleash his full powerlevel as an artist because 99%of his powerlevel was used up fighting against them.
This magical Super Saiyan God Ultra Instinct 4 Toriyama Creativity Unrestrained Toriyama you people have made up in your head NEVER existed. He was, by his own admission, which you would know if you'd read Slump or many of his other manga where he'd shared tidbits of real life, a total and complete BUM.
You wanna know what the closest this magical Toriyama you delusional idol-worshipping fanatics looks like? Look no further than Daima. That is your hero when "unrestrained".
But sure, keep trying to tell me everyone was holding poor widdle Toriyama back. Toriyama was somehow the only exception in the whole wide world of the artist stereotype of needing someone to wrangle them and keep them in line so that they get their head stuck up their own ass.
We get it. Toriyama was your idol. Toriyama made a lot of things that mean a lot to you. Nonetheless, Toriyama was simply just a man, and like all men, he had plenty of faults and was not perfect. He often, constantly, criticized and laughed at his own faults, shamelessly admitted them even. Certainly exaggerated for the sake of making it more funny than it really was in reality. But even the man himself knew it and admitted it. Why can't you fanboys do the same?
Good lord.

>>288053714
I don't mean DB wasn't good from the start, I mean Goku becoming an adult is the embodiment of what made DB good. Embracing change, always trying new and fresh stuff with a great artist at the wheel.

>>288042659
Winsor McCay invented animation you uncultured swine
Go look at Little Nemo(1911), Gertie the Dinosaur, Sinking of the Lusitania

Without him you literally wouldn't be here
Animation probably wouldn't exist

Comics and Animation owe so much debt to him

>>288052836
>>288052816
Oh, I read it and they conflated it with the same puritanical Western standards that made them make the female warrior show less skin. They seem to genuinely not understand why people would care about "male" and "female". And a lot of shrugging over how values are different everywhere. It really isn't a big deal at all. Nothing to get upset over, even if you're woke.