>Coexisted peacefully humans for 50 years without killing a single person>It was literally as simple as just him deciding not to do itThe series is literally showing us that demon could coexist with humans by exercising the most basic amount of self control and understanding human morality, but yet the series still tries to say that they're just animals that can't help themselves. Why is this?
>gets BTFO in thread>thread dies>makes the exact same thread againI get it, I understand your spam nowyou have a humiliation fetish
>>288206476No, the thread died because people stopped responding to it. I wasn't even around for a good majority of it.
>>288206427Because the author is an idiot and clearly didn't know what the fuck she was doing. Same as with everything else in the show.
>>288206505So you weren't interested in getting answers to your question.
>>288206950No, I'm not literally able to look at my computer 24/7
>>288206427It's established that he's a freak. Demons do not normally act like him. Also, he was exercising that same level of self control when he decided to kill every single human he knows. Because in the end, he never learned what he wanted to. Human morality is completely alien to him. It's not just that he doesn't know what it is, no matter what he learns he can't understand. Demons don't experience malice, love, grief, or regret. It's like a blind person trying to understand what makes color beautiful.
>>288207117This is the excuse that literally every Frieren fan gives whenever a demon contradicts the supposed "evil nature" the demons are stated to have. I've heard similar arguments with Soltair too. The reality is that the author wrote them as free-willed, sapient individuals with senses of self and variance in personality, while at the same time, tried to say that they're all simply evil. Demons are more than smart enough to understand human morals. They already have a set of morals themselves. They believe that hiding your mana is wrong and that other demons dying is wrong. This isn't just their mimicry. It's something that Flamme states that only demons care about. >Also, he was exercising that same level of self control when he decided to kill every single human he knows.Okay, so what was stopping him from just not killing people for the rest of his life? >Demons don't experience malice, love, grief, or regretYou could be a completely emotionless automaton and still understand what morals are and why they matter to human beings. You don't have to experience emotion yourself to understand that humans dislike it when you kill people and that it will only make people hate them more and potentially drive them to extinction.
>>288206427>couldthe Iranians could all buy Levi jeans and headbang to Metallica but they don't particularly want to
>>288207183You forget, he's not an emotionless automaton. If he was, then you would actually be right about this story being dumb and inconsistent. He has his own innate drives and impulses as a demon. Like the need to destroy.
>>288206427Wasn't he snacking on enemies of the state?
>>288207273>He has his own innate drives and impulses as a demon. Like the need to destroy.Which apparently is so weak that he can just go "Eh, don't wanna kill people" and then not do it for fifty years and have zero trouble doing it outside of that.
>>288206967Fuck off, normalfaggot
>>288207314the series opens with the protagonist casually telling the love of her life she'll see him again in 50 years and demons aren't that much shorter lived than elves
>>288207413That doesn't refute my argument. He has enough self-control to not kill anyone for fifty years. What was stopping him from just not killing anyone for the rest of his life?
>>288207440what's stopping you from not wiping your ass from your hand and licking it for the rest of your life?
>>288207482Are you going to stop dodging the question? Or are you going to act like a typical Frieren fanboy who can't answer any direct questions or debate the terrible writing quality of the show?
>>288207482Non sequitur. Nta, but your rhetoric is shit.
>>288207440Theoretically nothing. But the exact same answer goes for the opposite, what stops him from killing for the rest of his life? After fifty years of learning everything he'd like to about humans, but never actually being able to understand it and answer his most sought after questions, he decided to kill everyone to see if that'd work instead. Despite being the exact same motivation for why he stopped killing, his curiosity turned to total genocide. And unlike his curiosity, his need to kill doesn't require logic to decide what to do about it.
>>288207569Not even Macht solves this though. He was motivated by non-predatory desires to feel specific emotions (malice and guilt) but his methodology to artificially induce them was doomed from the start in a way that wouldn’t have worked even for humans. The very fact at all that he was motivated to achieve a human emotion even if it ultimately failed is even further proof that they’re biologically capable of choosing coexistence.
>>288206427He is unusual and he was specifically trying to experiment to see what would happen after he breaks that peace after 50 years to see if he would feel something. If he wasn't trying to do that he'd have had no motivation to actually be peaceful
>>288207533what else do you think comes from the ass?
>>288207659in OP's case, cum
>>288207624You seem to have made your conclusion first and figured out your reasoning afterwards. Methinks you just want the human-looking character to be human.
>>288207528I can't imagine the kind of person who would enter a schizo thread and engage with it earnestly
>>288207183Consider this angle: Frieren has a reason to hate them the way she does and she might be wrong about some things. This still doesn't change the fact demons have no qualms about killing humans if they want to.
>>288206427So we're just going to ignore how he was killing aristocrats in the intervening years, and decided to turn everyone to gold when he got bored with the experiment he was conducting right? Also Macht is not normal in the same way the Demon King was not normal and that led to humanity being decimated.
>>288207440>That doesn't refute my argumentYour argument doesn't even refute the main point. They have an innate need to destroy; you stating that the need is weak enough to enact self-control over for a period of time does not change the fact that their innate need is still there, will always be there, and is a fundamental aspect of their being.
Don't care, didn't read, does not matter.TOTAL DEMON DEATH
>>288207820They don't seem to have an "innate need" the same way that humans have the innate need for water. Macht was able to stop himself from doing it for fifty years. Which shows that they can seemingly choose not to do it at all.
>>288208314Like how humans don't have an innate need for sex?
>>288207682>You seem to have made your conclusion first and figured out your reasoning afterwards.No, I'm pointing out how the series is constantly contradicting itself on what it wants the demons to be.
>>288208339I don't see where the contradiction is
>>288208367The series near constantly tells us that they're just like wild animals or predators that can't help themselves, but yet constantly shows that they have self control over their own behavior.
>>288208314They don't seem =/= they do not. You having feelings that maybe they are like us because of an already weird outlier case,(whose timeframe might not even equate to a minute in their viewpoint and still FAILED) does not change what we are repeatedly shown, which is them giving in to their innate desire EVERYTIME.
>>288208418What was stopping Macht from just not killing people forever if he could just simply choose not to do it for fifty years?
>>288208403>but yet constantly shows that they have self control over their own behavior.NTA but self control is still not the same as saying they don't inherently view humans as prey and lack the capacity to understand human emotions like empathy and love. Aura's goons could also pretend and hold their killing instincts back but at the end of the day it was all just a ruse. There is no contradiction, just readers that don't understand that insulting a creature isn't the same as accurately describing their nature. That's why examples are necessary
>>288208328This isn't comparable to sexual arousal. For Macht, the decision is shown as nothing more than just "Do I kill people or not? Ehh, nah."
>>288208475Part of the entire problem with the series' characterization of demons is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil. Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.
>>288208465His innate demonic nature to be hostile to other living things. It exists, you can't just self-control it away. Even domesticated dogs can bite their owners on occasion.
>>288208533>His innate demonic nature to be hostile to other living things.Doesn't seem to be very powerful if he could very easily suppress it for fifty entire years.
>>288208513>is that being a sociopath (which demons essentially are) doesn't necessarily make someone murderously evil.They are monsters which is not the same as being sociopathic. They are evolved mimics and trying to project human flaws and characteristics onto them is on it's face a trap and we see this happen multiple times in the story. There are also other examples of monsters in Frieren that utilize human qualities to prey upon others and the main differentiating point from them to demons is that demons have a lot more processing power to understand how their deceptions can work. I'm still not seeing any kind of contradiction in the narrative as the only potential outlier is a demon regarded even by his own kind as being abhorrent in a way another demon was. Both of them ultimately did more harm to humans even if they thought they were pushing towards Coexistence.
>>288208567Again, this is not a refutation. This point you make does not dismiss the fact of the matter.
>>288208598Actually, it does. What you're saying here is that their demonic innate nature is essentially no different from me making a choice between what breakfast to have. AKA, nothing is forcing me to make that decision.
>>288208579>They are monsters which is not the same as being sociopathic.Distinction without a difference. They fundamentally act, talk and think like people even when nobody is directly observing them, which is another huge contradiction. They're clearly not just mimicking the behavior of humans. They have internal monologs, understanding of human morality, sentience, self awareness and intelligence. They're able to come up with complicated magical theroms that not even humans can do. They're also shown genuinely feeling emotions such as Aura crying before killing herself, or Lugner getting mad at Fern for hiding her mana, or him crying out Linie's name when she gets killed. (This catches him off guard enough to kill him too.) Even the most basic aspects about the demons are regularly contradicted. >"Demons only communicate to deceive.">Seconds later, shows demons communicating with each other, to share information, with no humans in earshot.These contradictions are so easy and so obvious to see that it's amazing so many people are willingly blind to them.
>>288208629>nothing is forcing me to make that decisionHunger would be compelling you to eat, so to does their nature compel them to kill. Maybe they don't have a biological need to, but the yearning is there regardless.
>>288208629>>288208328
>>288208714>>288208730Doesn't seem to be very powerful if he could very easily suppress it for fifty entire years. This isn't even acknowledging something very obvious, which is that humans and other races in the story are shown overcoming their nature, and yet demons are unable to for a reason that's never explained. It's essentially another Tolkien orc dilemma.
>>288208710>Distinction without a differenceNot really because it's a matter of core nature. >They're clearly not just mimicking the behavior of humans.Just tell me when you don't understand any point I make instead of making up an argument I never claimed. Noting that demons are evolved monsters with greater processing power is not the same as saying they don't understand what they are doing. It just says that they are intelligent enough to do it better compared to something like that dream monster that imitates loved ones from your consciousness. A demon would not choose to blatantly tell their target to kill them like the creature that imitated Himmel did. >They're also shown genuinely feeling emotions such as Aura crying before killing herself,Because I never said that they don't experience emotions at all. I said they don't experience select human emotions like love and empathy. They don't care about each other beyond their capacity to use another demon. They don't love one another either. Not wanting to die is a basic feeling and getting frustrated that things don't go your way are again, basic emotions. Countless animals experience those two as well. >"Demons only communicate to deceive."You realize that being able to comprehend language has a decided shape on how anything experiences the world right? Of course a creature that essentially has a human brain can continue to use that brain to develop things like social constructs, communicate concepts and ideas, etc, etc. What Frieren as a story demonstrates is that the end goal of such an existence is to harm and kill humans. Macht did not disprove this argument, he reinforced it by ultimately spending years murdering anyone that came to the golden city when he is strong enough to just put them in a statue. His latent malice towards humans won out even if he tried to mask it with the veneer of "protecting" a location he was fond of. This is again the same problem stated to plague the demon king.
>>288208773It's explained quite well, you just don't like it
>>288208773Not even going to bother engaging with you since you keep repeating the same meanginless drivel that has no salient point.
>>288208881No, it actually isn't. >>288208886You're just a retarded Frieren fanboy that has no argument.
>>288206427He's an indemonic freak, the others can't imitate him anymore than a normie can imitate an autist.
>>288208403Self-control is limited and doesn't last forever. They can control themselves, if they want, for some time. Then they'll run out of willpower and that's that.
>>288208403>The series near constantly tells us that they're just like wild animals or predators that can't help themselves> but yet constantly shows that they have self control over their own behavior...>...until they stop controlling their behavior because they can't help themselvesAre you stupid
>>288208861>Not really because it's a matter of core nature.Which is apparently something they cannot overcome, despite the fact that humans and other races clearly can?>It just says that they are intelligent enough to do it better compared to something like that dream monster that imitates loved ones from your consciousness. A demon would not choose to blatantly tell their target to kill them like the creature that imitated Himmel did.If they're that intelligent, sentient, and have such an understanding of human morality, then there's theoretically nothing stopping them from simply adopting another set of morals and coexisting with human beings. Macht did it for fifty entire years and it was no more complicated than him simply choosing not to do it. There was no innate driving making him kill people. It was an entirely conscious choice he made not to do it. There is absolutely nothing stopping them from coexisting. The entire argument is that demons with all of their sentience, intelligence, understanding human morality, and being intelligent on the level of a human being, means that they have all the components necessary to choose not to be evil. Which the author has no real explanation for. So, in order to curb any hint of a dilemma, they give you an answer that's just summed up as "They're evil, because they're demons. Don't worry about it.">They don't care about each other beyond their capacity to use another demonLugner literally cries out her fucking name and that drops his guard enough to allow him to be killed.>and getting frustrated that things don't go your way No, this is beyond that. Lugner says that Fern is a disgrace for hiding her mana and that she should be ashamed of herself. This goes beyond simple frustration over not getting his way. This demon that supposedly has no morals is claiming that an injustice was done, and that some type of social wrong had been committed. This is not the way that a sociopathic predator species thinks. (1/2)
>>288208861>Macht did not disprove this argument,Actually, he literally did. He was motivated by non-predatory desires to feel specific emotions (malice and guilt) but his methodology to artificially induce them was doomed from the start in a way that wouldn’t have worked even for humans. The very fact at all that he was motivated to achieve a human emotion even if it ultimately failed is even further proof that they’re biologically capable of choosing coexistence.
>>288207183Do you realize that Macht did what he did in order to understand guilt, that to achieve this he pretended to be obedient and that he never really stopped killing because Gluck continued to order him to kill political opponents?I swear, sometimes I think that the people here and I read different things, Macht can't live among people BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO. Maybe he could have developed a friendship-like relationship with Gluck, but he cares about other people about as much as you care about ants. If you see an ant crawling around your yard, you won't care and will probably ignore it, but the moment that ant crawls into a place that bothers you, you'll kill it without hesitation, Well, that’s how Macht sees us, we aren’t people in his eyes; we’re food, because Demons specialize in HUNTING HUMANS.Asking demons not to eat humans is like asking Hannibal Lecter to do the same. He might not kill Clarice Starling, or even the people she cares about, but he won’t stop killing because that is his nature and that's not going to change.
>>288209033>Which is apparently something they cannot overcomeI'm not going to engage your circular argument. I already pointed out that Aura's goons also "overcame" their predatory nature for their deception and that went unopposed by you so either you concede that any and all demons are capable of holding back, or you think they must instantly want to kill a human upon sight. >then there's theoretically nothing stopping them fromThis is why you are constantly failing to grasp a really simple story concept. They aren't fundamentally human they are monsters. They lack a critical element that would allow them to properly change morals the way humans can. >There was no innate driving making him kill people.He was still killing over those 50 years. He just got an excuse for removing political enemies. And again, once that time ran out he was even more rutheless to people exploring the golden city for literally no reason. He does not have to impale people on golden spikes. >Lugner literally cries out her fucking nameBecause he wanted backup against Fern. This is made abundantly clear, he only wanted to save his own life> Lugner says that Fern is a disgrace for hiding her mana and that she should be ashamed of herself.Because demons believe in might making right so hiding manga, and subsequently getting tricked by that tactic, upends his own worldview. He's literally just salty for getting played. >>288209085>He was motivated by non-predatory desires to feel specific emotionsAnd it failed because he fundamentally cannot experience it. From back when he forced children to kill each other to sitting in the golden city. He never changed who he was at the end of the day. His own kind call him out on this. Coexistence isn't an achievable goal by the story's own examples. Why you cannot accept this is beyond me.
>>288209166>I already pointed out that Aura's goons also "overcame" their predatory nature for their deception and that went unopposed by you so either you concede that any and all demons are capable of holding back, or you think they must instantly want to kill a human upon sight.You're literally proving my point. You understand, this correct? They are portrayed as having all the self control to choose not to be evil and yet the story is trying to say they can't be anything other than evil.>This is why you are constantly failing to grasp a really simple story concept.Nah, I think I'm pointing out how shitty the writing of the story is. >They lack a critical elementOkay, what is it? Because the story never explains it. >He was still killing over those 50 years. No, he was ordering other people to kill them. Which doesn't seem at all consistent with how demons behave in the show. >Because he wanted backup against Fern. This is made abundantly clear, he only wanted to save his own lifeThen why would he let his guard down so much as to be killed? That makes no sense.>He's literally just salty for getting played.He believes that a norm he subscribes to has been violated. That goes beyond him being upset about being tricked. This is something that only demons are stated to care about. Why the fuck would a predator species even think like this?>And it failed because he fundamentally cannot experience it.Just because you cannot experience it doesn't mean you can't understand the importance of human morals or change your own beliefs. See the androids in Star Trek as an example.>Cannot acceptI cannot accept shitty writing, yeah.
>>288209113There's a pretty massive difference in ordering people to be executed and purposefully doing it yourself in order to satiate some desire. The fact that Macht never once participated in a killing himself suggests that he's very easily able to suppress that urge.
The author got bored with demons because they are one note villains. Pretending to be anything more than a unfeeling monster every time one of them showed up to get turned into a donut got old.
>>288209314>You understand, this correct?No>They are portrayed as having all the self control to choose not to be evilThey are portrayed as having the self control not to act on impulse like that younger demon Himmel had to kill did. Because the older they are the wiser they become. Doesn't change that Lugner is a liar trying to murder an entire town and Macht ultimately turned on humans. Please specifically address this point and how it doesn't refute the claim that demons predate humans on a fundamental level. >Nah, I think I'm pointing out how shitty the writing of the story is. Frieren isn't high art but you picked the single worst topic to claim is badly written. >Okay, what is it?>Because the story never explains it. It did for Macht unless we're now pretending his flashback arc didn't happen. >he was ordering other people to kill themWe are literally shown Macht killing noble families under Gluck's orders. He wasn't a middle man he was the sword used to clean out the fortress city. >Then why would he let his guard down so much as to be killed?Being distracted that the person you wanted to back you up died is not an incomprehensible action anon. >He believes that a norm he subscribes to has been violated.So he is still salty that he got played. Glad we agree. >Why the fuck would a predator species even think like this?Because they possess increased reasoning capabilities which means they can experience a wider range of thoughts than a bug can. >Just because you cannot experience it doesn't meanFull stop, it does. >See the androids in Star Trek as an example.Different fictional story, different fictional rules.>I cannot accept shitty writing, yeah.Well if this thread is your best argument for why it's bad. All it does is make me think you are autistic or trolling. And since I tend to lean towards non malicious motives for how others post. You are probably just a retard and I'm sorry for you.
>mfw some whafag got so assblasted by frieren they started schizoing out and making constant bait threads
>>288209549>Please specifically address this point and how it doesn't refute the claim that demons predate humans on a fundamental level.Sure. By having sentience, intelligence, an understanding of morality, and knowing human morality, you have all the components necessary to choose not to be evil. Demons are also portrayed as having self control to be able to do so.Any creature with human like sentience and intelligence should be able to coexist, and that the story doesn't offer and adaequate explanation for why they can't other than "its demons and it's in their nature" which means effectively nothing. So far, nobody has refuted me on that premise. >Frieren isn't high art but you picked the single worst topic to claim is badly written. This is a retarded way to try to look bipartisan. "There's criticisms you can make, but not those ones!" >It did for Macht unless we're now pretending his flashback arc didn't happen. It did for Macht unless we're now pretending his flashback arc didn't happen. Saying that a person is a sociopath doesn't fundamentally make them incapable of morality or self control.>We are literally shown Macht killing noble families under Gluck's orders. So not out of some innate demon desire to kill people?>Being distracted that the person you wanted to back you up died is not an incomprehensible action anon. He literally cries out her fucking name, and lets his guard down enough to be killed. That's not just wanting someone to back you up. That looks like a clear display of empathy.>So he is still salty that he got played. Glad we agree. He's mad a norm he believes has been broken. A supposedly amoral being believes that a moral was violated.>Because they possess increased reasoning capabilities which means they can experience a wider range of thoughts than a bug can. So they should have the ability to change their beliefs and not be evil anymore then. >Full stop, it does. Plenty of sociopaths live normal lives
>>288206916I thought the author was male and the artist was female.
>>288209549>Different fictional story, different fictional rules.Retard cope.>Well if this thread is your best argument for why it's bad. All it does is make me think you are autistic or trolling. And since I tend to lean towards non malicious motives for how others post. You are probably just a retard and I'm sorry for you.You have no arguments, retard. Frieren is written like dogshit.
>>288209339You didn't get it at all. If it were up to you, Hannibal would be free and running his own restaurant..
>>288209653>you have all the components necessary to choose not to be evilKilling humans isn't an issue of morality for demons. They don't think of humans as equals worthy of that. Hell, they don't view each other that way either as their entire species lives by Might makes right. >Any creature with human like sentience and intelligence should be able to coexistNot by the rules and examples of the story>and that the story doesn't offer and adaequate explanation for why they can't This whole chain is filled with explanations from the story itself. You not getting that is not a problem with the writing. >Saying that a person is a sociopathI didn't call him a sociopath. I said he was a monster failing to overcome his base nature which includes the lack of key human emotions that would make true co-existence possible. >So not out of some innate demon desire to kill people?I was refuting your point that he was some kind of middle manager, and the argument that he didn't kill people either during his tenure as Gluck's servant or as the stewart of the golden city. He was always killing people, he never stopped and he didn't care about the act either because he doesn't care about humans. >He's mad a norm he believes has been brokenYou're just repeating my same point with different words. He's still salty>So they should have the ability to change their beliefs and not be evil anymore then.Story says no>SociopathYou can say it over and over but they are not sociopaths. They are inhuman monsters.>>288209672>Retard cope.Ok, let me bring up how replicants in Bladerunner work to explain how Pennywise the dancing clown just needs to be given a chance to not eat children. >Frieren is written like dogshit.If only you actually proved that by using the story specifically and not your sophistry about the potential for change in sapient being as a general concept.
And it's worth noting that demons are not above hiding their mana to initiate a trap or ambush. The whole concealing overall mana amounts is just a foreign concept because demons are less cooperative with each other than humans are, so an obvious display of dominance is how they have cultured themselves and subsequently how they intimidate human mages.
>>288209835>Killing humans isn't an issue of morality for demons. They don't think of humans as equals worthy of that. Hell, they don't view each other that way either as their entire species lives by Might makes right.That doesn't refute the argument. Are you going to address them having all the components to do so? Because if that's the case, then they can't be pure evil.>Not by the rules and examples of the storyYes, the rules are retarded. We're allowed to critique them. >This whole chain is filled with explanations from the story itself. You not getting that is not a problem with the writing."It is their nature" Despite the fact that elves and humans can overcome their own nature so it's not even consistent within itself.>I didn't call him a sociopath.I called him that, because that's essentially what demons are explained to be in the show. >I was refuting your point that he was some kind of middle manager,None of this is showing that he has some innate desire to kill humans that cannot be overcome. In fact, the opposite. >You're just repeating my same point with different words. He's still saltyYou're not addressing that this supposedly amoral being somehow cares about morals. >Story says noFor reasons that are never explained, and retarded.>You can say it over and over but they are not sociopaths. They are inhuman monsters.That have the same level of sentience, understanding of morality and intelligence as humans. Distinction without a difference.Ok, let me bring up how replicants in >Bladerunner work to explain how Pennywise the dancing clown just needs to be given a chance to not eat children. The story never explains why demons can't change their behavior despite them having all the components necessary to not be evil. There's no rules here to begin with.
>>288209835>If only you actually proved that by using the story specifically and not your sophistry about the potential for change in sapient being as a general concept.Any creature with human like sentience and intelligence should be able to change their beliefs and coexist with human beings. The fact that the story gives them all these capabilities and yet they are unable to for a reason that is never explained is a moral dilemma that the series isn't solving. It's another Tolkien orc dilemma.
>>288210118>Any creature with human like sentience and intelligence should be able to change their beliefs and coexist with human beings.At the end of the day the story isn't badly written. You just don't like the rules and keep repeating yourself as if you are the high authority on how demons in one story work.
>>288207183It's as simple as Demons see humans the same way we see non-pet animals, most of us don't care if one dies unless we have a personal attachment, and though we can understand the reasoning behind their actions, we're just as liable to kill them if they get on our property or call animal control that will likely euthanize the animal once it's taken away.
These pseudo intellectual morality arguments are always a fun read. I'm genuinely convinced anyone who sympathizes with the demons is autistic.
>>288210179>At the end of the day the story isn't badly writtenActually, yeah it is. There's a ton of writing problems, not limited to shitty worldbuilding, shitty characters. But I'll style on your ass even more. Here's some ways that the demons contradict themselves. Demons are consistently said to use faking empathy/emotion as a survival tool/tool to trick humans to kill them. Yet in chapter 72 we see a young demon actively ask for Revolte's approval, despite being unaware of any humans around, including Genau who ends up killing him. When Macht is in his last death throes, he literally goes to see Gluck despite the human offering 0 survival utility. This directly contradicts what we've been told, and there are a few other examples of demons acting with emotion against their survival even when there are 0 humans around (or at least to the demons' knowledge).Another reason demons are said to be absolute evil is that they are biologically incapable of having a moral compass and also biologically incapable of feeling human emotions. Except of course at the end of the El Dorado arc Frieren herself admits that this is not an absolute truth, despite the constant drivel from both characters and the narrator. An actual example is that demons believe it wrong and disgraceful to hide one's mana level, showing clear ability to distinct right from wrong, which directly implies they would be wholly capable of adoptingWhen put into context of Frieren's interactions with Fern and Stark, points 1 and 2 start to conflict heavily with the themes surrounding her journey and especially Himmel's entire character.
>>288210179-Frieren is the most vehement demon slayer in existence, and believes wholeheartedly that demons have 0 irredeemable qualities- When fighting Macht, she admits that the small possibility exists that a demon can overcome their biological wiring, but isn't willing to consider the sacrifice required.-Yet when teaching Fern/Stark, she constantly alludes to Himmel, who is on record stating that anything is possible, even overcoming one's biological limitations no matter the difficulty (aka him not being the destined hero). It's clear what the writer is TELLING the readers, but there are plenty enough examples contradicting those words that present significant issues with the stories theming that bring up doubts about the story's quality.The criticism is that despite constantly TELLING readers that demons are verbatim 'pure evil' and 'cannot change their nature' through multiple avenues including Frieren, narrative voices, and even the demons themselves, we are shown multiple examples contradicting this. This is a moral dilemma specifically because Frieren's argument for eradicating demons is predicated on the fact that demons are pure evil/irredeemable. The argument is that if demons are in fact not pure evil (which we have reasons and evidence to doubt) then it is a problematic philosophy that the story is presenting as justice, with troubling real world implications given how popular Frieren is. It's not an argument that humans should seek to coexist with demons, nor an argument about how demons are actually good people, it's a stance that eradication of a race that isn't irredeemable, even if they're mostly morally reprehensible, should be met with disquiet instead of fanfare.
>>288210194I am autistic and I'm pretty sure you have to be a normie to sympathise with the demons
is this dude running his posts through AI or is this just pure unfiltered autism
>>288210199>There's a ton of writing problems>continues to still only focus on demonsLet's not forget that Macht did try and threaten Gluck in his last moments. Some people interpret that as him forcing his death sooner, but the reality is he was a broken machine on it's last legs. Whatever sentimentality he had with Gluck was not won over by a positive feeling and he died a dog's death. Frieren saying maybe it could happen came with a steep cost of lives. I'll again point out that the Demon King had tried to understand humanity and co-exist and he shrank the population to something like 1/4 it's total and still apparently failed. Just because the story presents an idea that nuance might exist doesn't mean it is actually there. Frieren is allowed to have self doubt and demons are allowed to just be amoral creatures at the end of the day. This is not some contradiction and is not automatically evidence of bad writing.
>>288210261x2 Only a textbook normie with his head up his ass could be stupid enough to defend a demon
>>288210223Humans, elves, and dwarves aren't inherent monsters, anon, and the demons are both monsters AND choose to treat other beings like shit. You're just a dark triad schizo mad that an Asian cartoon (you didn't even read the manga) gave people an easy to understand warning manual about you and people like you.
>>288210282>Let's not forget that Macht did try and threaten Gluck in his last moments.That's not refuting anything I just said. He went to go see Gluck despite him not having any sort of survival utility for him. >I'll again point out that the Demon King had tried to understand humanity and co-exist and he shrank the population to something like 1/4 it's total and still apparently failedWhich is retarded writing because they're far more than smart enough to figure this out by themselves. They're also apparently dumb enough to keep killing people despite it not even being needed for survival or that them killing people will turn others against them. >amoral creatures at the end of the day. Except for them having morals about other demons dying or hiding your mana of course.>This is not some contradiction and is not automatically evidence of bad writing.You didn't actually address anything. You're dancing around it like every other Frieren fanboy who tries defending this series does. >>288210572>Inherent monstersWhat about them makes them so different that they can't do it?
>>288210614>I don't like the fact that the story doesn't let demons actually have a change of heart>therefore it's shit writing
>>288210614They're bipedal mimic chests, wired to the core only to deceive and prey upon others. What elements of sapience they might have always gravitate to and double down on these cruel and predatory aspects without fail. They even disintegrate into magic upon death rather than being true flesh and blood, further highlighting that they're unlike anything natural. The demons are a representation of dangerous lies and sheer spite in and of themselves, along with being a benchmark for how far a human, dwarf, or elf could ever morally fall. Frieren isn't some /pol/-bait race war manga, that's an excuse by people who feel outed by the fact that the warnings about demons' behaviors are also handy warnings in general.
Frieren won. Bigly.
>>288210747>They're bipedal mimic chestsSlight correction. They are evolved shadow creatures that could only imitate sounds. Mimic chests are more like horseshoe crabs in that they stopped evolving ages ago.
>>288210723The story gives them all the components to change but then says they're incapable of doing so. That's bad writing.
>>288210747They have all the components necessary to not be evil despite saying that they're pure evil. There's no explanation for why they cannot change compared to all the other races that can.
>>288210904>>288210932>Can't feel love, can't regret, can't feel grief>all the gomponents necessary
>>288210932They don't have the components, and what choices they can make all return to being as harmful as possible for everyone else.
>>288207117I'll be honest, this tracks but it certainly was not a very satisfying conclusion. It also seemed to not really play nice with how the rest of the series treats demons.
>>288211010Being a sociopath doesn't make you incapable of morality. You could be a completely emotionless automaton and still have morals. >>288211014They have sentience, intelligence, understanding of morality, and seemingly understanding of human emotions on par with Frieren at the very least. Along with self control over their own behavior.
>>288211091Morals caused by what though?
>>288211111Logical reasoning and deduction. Especially given how they can understand how their actions affect other people.
Well, OP, I can't be assed to read through all the arguments for and against your position in this thread but I will say that the Macht stuff did ultimately disappoint me and I think for reasons similar to what you listed. The demons act too human even when there's no reason to for me to buy the explanation provided by the text. Macht being a freak does explain it, but it is a very boring conclusion.
>>288211125And why do they value how their action affect others?
>>288211152Yeah. The problem is that they try to make the demons seem as though they're totally alien, while at the same time, even when nobody's watching them, they essentially just act like people.
>>288211183They have the ability to choose to value it is the point.
>>288211191That's not an accident, the entire point is that they are alien but have become extremely human looking on a superficial level so you would never be able to tell unless you had proper experience that reveals their true nature
>>288211235Why do they choose that
>>288211241They act like this even when nobody's watching them though. There's very little difference in how they behave around people versus how they behave around each other.>>288211152It tries to be more complex, but ultimately comes back around to the same simple conclusion. "They're evil, because they're demons."
>>288211263So?
>>288211292So, they're not "entirely alien" if they're acting like this. They just act like people with a serial killer gene.
>>288211091Basic animals have sentience, anon, that's different from sapience. The demons don't actually understand morality, just that something called it exists among other species. Their "self-control" is only a delay to better achieve the massacre they hoped for or gravitated toward in the first place.
>>288211385>Basic animals have sentienceThey have it on the level of a human being, at which point they're more than just animals.>The demons don't actually understand morality, just that something called it exists among other speciesThey literally do. One of the first things that Flamme explains about them is that they have a moral code involving who has the biggest mana and about other demons dying. This is why Lugner got so disgusted with Fern hiding her mana and calls her a coward and a disgrace over it. >Their "self-control" is only a delay to better achieve the massacre they hoped for or gravitated toward in the first place.What's stopping them from just not killing people forever?
>>288211459What's stopping you from killing yourself right now? I know this will be interpreted as just "lol, kys" but this is an actual genuine question that really relates to the conversation.
>>288211091>and seemingly understanding of human emotions on par with Frieren at the very leastFrieren is often stoic but she is not lacking for emotions, her expressions are tempered by her incredibly long life but they are still there. Not a single demon has ever experienced Grief or longing.
>>288211508It's not about that. It's about whether or not I have the ability to do it. Demons seemingly have the ability to change their beliefs given everything that we've seen about them.>>288211539Frieren literally couldn't understand certain emotions at the very start of the series. Demons are on par with her.
>>288211575>Frieren literally couldn't understand certain emotions at the very start of the seriesAnd then you flip to page 10 of the first chapter and the realization of loss hits her like a truck. Name a single demon who had an epiphany like this which resulted in them expressing a genuine emotion they were stated to not possess already. Did macht ever understand Grief or malice in the end?
>>288211622Are emotions responsible for you having a moral compass? Yes or no.
>>288211628what does that have to do with Frieren being able to feel sad while demonkind cannot?
>>288211676Understanding doesn't mean you have to feel them yourself.
>>288211701Did you mean to reply to someone else because I agree with the story that demons are not capable of feeling certain emotions, much less understanding them as evidenced with Macht. Frieren can both feel and understand emotions however which makes her fundamentally different from demons despite the lack of expression she exhibits most of the time.
>>288211575No, that's exactly the thing. You do genuinely have the ability to kill yourself. But you won't. It's completely natural and healthy that you won't. For demons, the urge to destroy could be seen in a similar way. It might be a sign of maturity and level headedness to not kill people at every available chance. Extraordinary restraint perhaps, to wait fifty years and not nuke an entire city when you have the ability to. But to just never kill, ever again? That's insane. It'd be like a human that has no desire to live and would commit suicide on a whim rather than because out of a deep soul crushing despair.
>>288211768That literally doesn't change the fact that they have the self-control to not do so. Why aren't you addressing this?
>>288206427>50 yearswas it?
>>288211799What is there to address? Do you really mean to tell me that every demon could just randomly decide "hey killing humans is bad" and then never do it again? Surely not, so what is your point?
>>288206427>this vegan hasn't killed a single cow in 50 years, therefore all humans are capable of not killing cows, so why don't they?
>>288211823>Do you really mean to tell me that every demon could just randomly decide "hey killing humans is bad"Yeah, literally. Considering all it took for Macht was to just go "ehh, nah." and that was it. I seriously don't understand how people try opining for Frieren like this as if there's some super deep meaning to analyze, when it's shallow as a puddle.
>>288211800OP is confused. Macht lived in Weiss for around 30 years where he was killing humans while under Lord Gluck's order before he turned it into gold. Then Macht was sealed there for another 50 years where he was very much killing people.
>>288206427What do demons eat?
>>288211823>Do you really mean to tell me that every demon could just randomly decide "hey killing humans is bad"Yeah, literally. Considering all it took for Macht was to just go "ehh, nah." and that was it. I seriously don't understand how people try opining for Frieren like this as if there's some super deep meaning to analyze, when it's shallow as a puddle. >>288211856Yes. Literally. All humans could go vegan if we collectively decided to do so or had to do so.
>>288212011>Considering all it took for Macht was to just go "ehh, nahwas this before or after he spent years making people kill each other so he could study human emotions? Or was it before or after he started impaling people on spikes to mark his territory. I'm trying to think about when he decided that killing humans was bad.
Why didn't Frieren just grab the magic item of Aura to make all demons good?
>>288212011You so very obviously came to what you wanted the answer to be before you figured out what logic would lead to that answer
>>288212072You so obviously don't have an argument.
>>288211459They don't have it on a human level, you've missed parts of the story. Flamme explains that demons have a social structure, not a moral code, regarding power-level dickwaving. Lugner was seething that he got tricked while also hoping that if he spewed baseless insults at Fern she'd do something stupid and he could capitalize on that to try killing her. The demons have tried killing people forever, but the people have fought back.
>>288212141>They don't have it on a human level, you've missed parts of the story.Where? The demons demonstrably show sentience on the level of a human being. They come up with complex theories regarding magic, which is something that most humans in the setting can't even do. >not a moral codeIt is a moral code. They think that hiding your mana to trick people is wrong. This isn't even something that's part of their hunting strategies, because it's something that only demons care about.
>>288212175The demons sift through magic like a dog uses its sense of smell, anon. The demons don't have a moral code, they have social rules, mainly forced by them on fellow demons because they like feeling that they can tell other demons truly have smaller magidicks than them at any given time.
>>288212175>They think that hiding your mana to trick people is wrongThey are perfectly willing to hide their mana. Mana showcases are just ways to assert dominance in all other cases.
>>288212264Demons not understanding or adhering to human morality doesn't mean they still cannot have their own societal rules. The problem you are having is that you think there is only one morality instead of examining what demon's lack that every other sapient being in the story doesn't.
>>288212115Your entire argument is "This one guy did a thing once, so all of them should be doing it forever"Setting aside the fact that you're assuming he's normal when he's very specifically stated not to be, and the fact that him doing it once is not proof it could be done forever, you're relying entirely upon "Everyone should just" and not a single intelligent person in the world makes an argument based on if everyone would just. Everyone will not just, everyone has never ever in the history of the world just, and everyone will not just now. And you mean to tell me that this is bad writing because everyone will not just?
>>288212290Anon, holy fucking shit. You're missing the point. The fact that they have the capability of self control AT FUCKING ALL means that they have the capability to choose not to do evil. The fact that they have an understanding of morality, sentience, intelligence and ability to learn, means that they have the ability to choose not to do evil. If a race is sentient, they can't be pure evil, because they have the ability to choose not to be, even if the majority of them choose to be evil anyway. Get it? Got it? Am I going to have to repeat myself again? Or is this finally getting through your tard helmet?
>>288212310>Am I going to have to repeat myself again?I wish you would stop repeating yourself because you keep making the same arguments, getting debunked, and just loop back to your first statement as if you proved something. Demons not immediately killing every human on sight is not a sign that their somehow capable of truly co-existing with everyone else. They inherently don't view killing humans as good or evil. They genuinely don't care
>>288212348>They genuinely don't careI guess Macht didn't spend an entire arc trying to figure out how to coexist with humans. He didn't care at all, I guess.
>>288212310We already got the guy that chose not to. He couldn't understand no matter how hard he tried, and attempted to resolve it by falling back on his instincts and killing everybody.
>>288212354>I guess Macht didn't spend an entire arc trying to figure out how to coexist with humansAnd he failed to even after 80+ years of trying. All he accomplished was a lot of human suffering and the only good he did was because a human took the wheel and guided his killings to the benefit of the city of Weiss.
>>288212354He didn't try to coexist for its own sake, he tried because he hoped it would help him understand something. And when it failed, because he doesn't have what's needed to get it, he stopped without any regrets. Because he didn't care about coexisting. He just wanted to do science.
>>288212396>>288212372>>288212356He was motivated by non-predatory desires to feel specific emotions (malice and guilt) but his methodology to artificially induce them was doomed from the start in a way that wouldn’t have worked even for humans. The very fact at all that he was motivated to achieve a human emotion even if it ultimately failed is even further proof that they’re biologically capable of choosing coexistence.
>>288212409His methodology wasn't flawed. He was literally incapable of understanding the contradiction of his curiosity. Frieren calls him out on it and he's stumped as to why she even brings it up.
>>288212447>Why would you ask me such a thing?Holy shit lmao. The series doesn't even have an answer for it's own contradictions. It's hilarious and sad how obvious that is.
>>288212447You're not addressing the point. The very fact at all that he was motivated to achieve a human emotion even if it ultimately failed is even further proof that they’re biologically capable of choosing coexistence.
>>288212484>You're not addressing the point.I am addressing the point succinctly. Demons are capable of complex thoughts but two demons have seriously considered the option of co-existence from their own perspective and it's had catastrophic consequences because they cannot truly understand or even exhibit the necessary emotions to facilitate the act. What you are not addressing is that the attempt is not proof they can achieve it, anymore than a dog emulating human sounds will never result in a real-life talking dog.
>>288212409>Be weirdo>Wanna understand human emotions>Hold off on killing everyone>Human ally finds guys for me to kill in the mean time>Act like human for fifty years>Whole city loves me>Still don't get it>Still wanna kill everyone>Fuck it, maybe I'll feel bad if I kill them all>Nope, just disappointed that I never figured it outSure, maybe it could happenBut you are seriously gonna tell me it's bad writing that we haven't seen a demon that did it?
>>288212510The fact that he was even able to think of this plan and try to feel a human emotion at all is proof that they're capable of choosing coexistence. What you're talking about is the fact that he failed. Not about the fact that he tried to do this at all. All of this is further proving the point instead of debunking it.
>>288212533Why is the attempt proof of the possibility?
>>288212510>anymore than a dog emulating human sounds will never result in a real-life talking dog.I still don't know how you can see them talking, acting, and even thinking like people even when nobody's around and still, somehow, think that this is all just mimicry or an attempt at it. They communicate like humans do, even among themselves, they have personal goals and interests. This doesn't quite feed into the narrative that they're just automatons with an elaborate database of canned responses, like a large language model chatbot, in order to regularly have a nice meal of human flesh. If they have that level of reasoning and cognitive abilities, they should be able to grow beyond their base instincts. I wonder if there's still some missing info regarding demons, how they came to be, why they evolved to oppose humans and not, say, deer, if its just a meal they look for.
>>288212546Because it shows that they're capable of doing it at all. All they'd need is a better understanding. But the plot is preventing them from doing so. Which is the entire argument. They're badly written.
>>288212533>The fact that he was even able to think of this planThe plan that involved making humans kill each other, including children, so he could study their reactions? >>288212550My analogy wasn't meant to say that demons aren't sapient. My analogy is that dogs don't have human vocal cords and cannot do something we can because of biology. I don't think demons are automatons, I think they are just smart predators lacking a truly human perspective. The story agrees at the end of the day regardless of how specific characters, who have clear grudges, frame things.
>>288212570>The plan that involved making humans kill each other, including children, so he could study their reactions?Yeah. He's still biologically capable of choosing coexistence even if his plan failed. What about this are you not understanding?>lacking a truly human perspective.They show understanding of human emotions and morality on par with Frieren at the very least as she is shown to be able to understand some of them at the story's beginning. The story is just retardedly written and the demons behave like idiots.
>>288212599>What about this are you not understanding?Why an intelligent being thinking he can do a thing matters to the fact that he fundamentally cannot. And why this matters to the entire species that has spent the better part of 2000 years killing humans. >>288212599>on par with Frieren at the very least as she is shownHere we go repeating things that were prove wrong. Frieren is actually capable of feeling the things Demons cannot. That it took her a millenia to achieve this is not to say that Demons will ever achieve it themselves.
>>288212560>All they'd need is a better understanding.It has been explained to you so many times why they cannot understand. Unlike you, who are simply refusing to understand.
>>288212636>Why an intelligent being thinking he can do a thing matters to the fact that he fundamentally cannot. And why this matters to the entire species that has spent the better part of 2000 years killing humans.He's biologically capable of choosing coexistence. Being a sociopath doesn't mean you can't have morals. You have no argument against any of this, and you're not making one against it because you know you don't have one.>>288212640Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.
>>288212666What leads you to conclude on an intellectual level that murder is wrong?
>>288212696>What leads you to conclude on an intellectual level that murder is wrong?Logical deduction.
>>288212666>He's biologically capable of choosing coexistence.He's capable of entertaining the idea of coexistence>sociopathThey are monsters that look like people. Not people with neurological disorders. You treating a demon like this is what gets you eaten alive.
>>288212702That's like saying "science" when asked how how you determined a cure for a disease. Like, yeah I fucking hope you did science rather than just making shit up, but I wasn't asking if you did science I was asking what science you did.
>>288212704>He's capable of entertaining the idea of coexistenceThey are clearly aware that humans generally want to kill them because the demons kill humans. They know that there are a few extremely powerful non-demons who kill very powerful demons.Therefore the weaker demons have an incentive to not attract the attention of those powerful demon-slayers.The simplest and easiest way to do this is to not kill humans (which they have no incentive to do in the first place). The reason they have not is because the author is bad at writing and clearly didn't think things through.>They are monsters that look like people. Not people with neurological disorders.This is the entire fucking problem with this conversation. You are NOT operating under logic or literary understanding, you're arguing with fucking feefees that nobody is talking about or gives a fuck about. You're opening your mouth and spewing whatever FEELINGS you have, rather than THOUGHTS. I've lost my patience with you because you are clearly a fucking retard who does not think.How many fucking times do we have to tell you that NOBODY is talking about whether it's a "good" thing, or whether you can be "friends" with demons. You stupid illiterate nigger.Just shut the fuck up now, retard. You were never even talking to us to begin with; just the voices in your head that comprise the strawman you perceive us as. God, I fucking hate stupid "people". At least the demons could hypothetically be trained; you're too fucking stupid. Like trying to teach a worm to do tricks.And no, humans aren't demons. But "demons" are "humans" because they are a fucking portrayal of a facet of human characteristics presented in an exaggerated manner. Because there is no other fucking metric for sapient life in reality and thus all fantasy races are merely derivative of humanity.
>>288212742>Therefore the weaker demons have an incentive to not attract the attention of those powerful demon-slayers.They do this by following their own instincts which is learning how better to trick and interact with humans. >which they have no incentive to do in the first placeThey evolved from human hunting monsters. Their incentive is biological even if it's been wrapped in a higher intelligence. >You are NOT operating under logic or literary understandingYou mean by reading and understanding the rules of the story presented to me? >you're arguing with fucking feefees that nobody is talking about or gives a fuck aboutThe projection here is hilarious because I've only ever argued and posted facts and pages from the story. Meanwhile you keep screaming about how demons SHOULD just decide to not kill humans and the only reason is because logic somehow dictates coexistence would be achievable absent a human centric moral system to make them actually care beyond scientific curiosity at best. >rest of the postLooks like the demon lover is having a melty. >and thus all fantasy races are merely derivative of humanity.Yeah I know. But that also comes with the caveat that fiction allows forfantastical races to be governed by rules. And the rule in Frieren is that demonkind is incapable of actual coexistence because of their nature and evolution. The ones that try wind up fucking humanity over harder than the standard fare. If you can manage a reply that doesn't devolve into shitting yourself and projecting, I'll be surprised.
>>288212813>They do this by following their own instincts which is learning how better to trick and interact with humans.So, you're simultaenously claiming that they don't understand humans while at the same time claiming that they know enough about humans to mimic them and infiltrate them? And they have enough higher level thinking to be able to comprehend this, but they just don't? Do you not see the obvious contradiction here?>Their incentive is biological even if it's been wrapped in a higher intelligence. So they have enough intelligence to seemingly overcome their base biological instincts like humans and other races but they somehow can't? We're now up to two contradictions.>You mean by reading and understanding the rules of the story presented to me? You're unable to think beyond what the story tells you. AKA, you're a retard.>The projection here is hilarious because I've only ever argued and posted facts and pages from the storyYeah, and I've been telling you the whole time why what the story presents is retarded and you're an even bigger retard for not questioning it or seeing how stupid it is in the first place. >Meanwhile you keep screaming about how demons SHOULD just decideIf they have their interests as a species in mind, then yes. The simplest and easiest way to do this is to not kill humans (which they have no incentive to do in the first place). The reason they have not is because the author is bad at writing and clearly didn't think things through.>Looks like the demon lover is having a melty.Frieren fan can't read.>But that also comes with the caveat that fiction allows forfantastical races to be governed by rulesAnd these rules are allowed to be critiqued and called out as retarded and contradictory.>demonkind is incapable of actual coexistence because of their nature and evolutionDespite the fact that humans and other races can clearly overcome their nature and coexist?
>>288212702Go on, explain the logic.
>>288212888>Demon kill human>Humans hate demon>Humans kill demon>Demons don't want to die>Therefore demons don't kill humans if they don't want to dieIt's literally that simple.
>>288212813Just because demons don't experience love or empathy themselves doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill people, or realizing that murder will turn humans against them, or even deciding for themselves that murder is wrong on an intellectual level even if they have no gut aversion to it.The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals, but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. It says that demons lack empathy, but their characterization is more like demons have the Evil Gene and are cursed by an evil deity such that their reasoning and understanding of the world inevitably misleads them into evil, even when they are trying to avoid it, and even when it's completely self-destructive and self-defeating for their goals.No, stop. Don't just try handwaving this away with the semantics of them being monsters. Actually address and respond to this.
>>288212880>So, you're simultaenously claimingno. I'm saying that demons have a spectrum of emotions and thoughts that overlap with humans. However as it relates to their ability to avoid attracting the attention of demon hunters, and otherwise surviving into their older years. part of that comes from better understanding how to trick humans. Again, the younger demon Himmel killed was bad at this and it got her killed. The only reason she even survived long enough to off the Mayor was because Himmel didn't heed Frieren's warning>So they have enough intelligence to seemingly overcome their base biological instinctsNot to the degree humans can override our own evolutionary instincts as proven within the story>You're unable to think beyond what the story tells youI can't sit there and say a story is bad because it doesn't adhere to logic that doesn't exist within it or rules from other properties like the retard that brought up star trek. >why what the story presents is retardedWe get it, you want demons to not be horrible monsters and somehow capable of being good. They aren't and this makes you seethe >If they have their interests as a species in mind,They don't beyond the two freaks (3 if you consider Soltiare who absolutely dissected humans in her spare time) which isn't good for your argument>Frieren fan can't read.Aw, you didn't launch into a bunch of sentences implying that I'm having a schizo moment even though I have only been replying to posts in the thread with extreme precision? You didn't whine about strawmen that didn't exist and you can't provide a single example of one? >And these rules are allowed to be critiquedBut you haven't proven the rules are contradictory with examples from within the text. Your only contradiction is that you think they should operate differently and they don't. >Despite the fact that humans and other races can clearly overcome their nature and coexist?Yes, we aren't demons.
>>288212920>doesn't mean they're incapable of observing that humans dislike it when you kill peopleThey observe it. Why does this matter or why would they change? >or realizing that murder will turn humans against themWhy wouldn't they just murder more humans or find ways to get humans to de-escalate while they can continue killing?>The series tells us that demons are just monsters and animals,Biased characters call them animals. The story shows intelligent monsters>Don't just try handwaving this away with the semantics of them being monstersOk, they are still monsters with a high degree of intelligence but the complete lack of capacity for specific human emotions. This is a fake world with fake demons and this makes you shit yourself in anger because you desperately want them to be capable of any measure of goodness and they just aren't. Look, I get it. I think Gary Gygax and Tolkein did a huge disservice to contemporary fantasy with the Alignment system of D&D, and the Orks being evil and corrupted elves or whatever. But if you are going to shitpost an entire day about a story you are reading. Actually read and understand it first and then argue why it's badly written on those terms.
>>288207276Yeah. He was still killing and devouring people, he just relinquished his choice of who to Gluck. And after 30 years of service he got bored and turned the entire city into gold, including Gluck.
>>288212981That is literally what you're saying. They're smart enough to seemingly overcome these base instincts, but they just can't for a reason that's never explained. That's bad writing. >Not to the degree humans can override our own evolutionary instincts as proven within the storyYeah, and that's bad writing. >I can't sit there and say a story is bad because it doesn't adhere to logic that doesn't exist within it or rules from other properties like the retard that brought up star trek. It's bad writing because they seemingly have all the intelligence, self awareness, understanding of morality, self-control, etc to be able to seemingly stop doing this, but they can't because the plot demands that they act like retards so that Frieren can be epic and based and kill them. The author doesn't know what the fuck they're doing with demons, and it shows. The demons are stated to act completely alien, but yet the way that they act doesn't support this. They act just like people, even having very human like moral values such as trickery being wrong and other demons dying being wrong. The only explanation for this is bad writing.>you want demons to not be horrible monsters I want them to be well written, to which, they are not.>They don't beyond the two freaks (3 if you consider Soltiare who absolutely dissected humans in her spare time) which isn't good for your argumentWhich is retarded writing, and what you're pointing out isn't disproving that. They're way too smart to be acting the way that they do. >Aw, you didn't launch into a bunch of sentences implying that I'm having a schizo moment even though I have only been replying to posts in the thread with extreme precision? Nah, I'd rather keep a retard like you in check by pointing out how stupid your arguments are.>Your only contradiction is that you think they should operate differently and they don't.>Demons only use language to deceive>Yet they also use it to exchange information
>>288213021>They observe it. Why does this matter or why would they change?Because they don't want to be killed by humans and their survival as a species depends on it? >Why wouldn't they just murder more humans or find ways to get humans to de-escalate while they can continue killing?Because they don't want to be killed by humans and their survival as a species depends on it? >This is a fake world with fake demons and this makes you shit yourself in anger because you desperately want them to be capable of any measure of goodness and they just aren't. There's constant contradictions about this. They contradict their supposed evil nature so much, that it almost makes it look like they're going to subvert it. I've pointed out several examples in this thread already.
>>288212981>But you haven't proven the rules are contradictory with examples from within the text.This one panel contradicts literally everything we know about demons. They don't have paternal feelings, they don't feel affection for each other, and supposedly don't give a shit about each other. That's all contradicted with this.>B-but he just wants approval for selfish reasonsHe cares enough about what this demon thinks that it wants them to praise them.
>>288212666>but animals (and other monsters) don't behave like that. They actually do though. Macht is the equivalent of a tiger in a circus. You can raise a tiger cub, feed it, care for it, train it, and do everything imaginable to make it attached to you. But at the end of the day it's still a wild animal that can decide to kill you at any time. The fact that it can coexist with you today doesn't mean it'll continue to do so the next day. It takes generations of breeding and artificial selection to make animals that are consistently safe to be around, like dogs.
The problem with demons for me is more so that they’re BIOLOGICALLY driven to be antagonistic in the story and contradict the very themes of the story. Like, the story will give you characters that are, by all means, intelligent enough to make detailed plans, discuss about the world and their place in it and say that they can do nothing but destroy. The story will tell you they’re like animals, but characterize them as people. The text of the story and how it’s presented are contradictory. It will give you characters that are smart enough to communicate and manipulate people, and say they have the urge to kill people and can do nothing about it. And whenever this is pointed out, some retard will point to a panel in the manga and say>“See? It says demons are basically animals”Pointing out one point in the manga doesn’t make the manga non-contradictory.We’re told that demons don’t feel empathy or guilt explicitly for the purpose of killing humans and that coexistence with them is pretty much impossible and if it were, it would get millions of humans killed in the first place so it’s pointless to even try. THAT’S my main problem with the demons in Frieren. It’ll give you characters that think and ponder and explore in very human ways and say that all they’re good for is killing. It’ll make good and evil a matter of biology.And it clashes with themes of the story. Frieren is about connecting with the people that you love, hearing their dreams and feelings, and cherishing the time you spent with them and then it’ll point at the demons and say “Except for them. Fuck them”. And internet discussions don’t help it. >“WOWZIE! Frieren’s so based for ignoring that demons pleads for mercy. Eradicate the demons! Isn’t it great, not having empathy for your enemies”?I’m upset with them very much from a Doylist perspective. In an attempt to subvert a trope, it looped in on itself and does basically nothing with it.
>>288213105>They actually do thoughNo they don't you actual fucking retard. Tigers are not sentient on the level of fucking human beings. Demons are. Wild beasts are not intelligent and able to communicate with other species. Wild beasts do not understand human morality or strictly adhere to their own. Wild beasts do not possess all the components necessary to adopt human morals. Demons do. They are incomparable to animals.Respond to this without strawmanning, doing a red herring or ignoring the points in this response.
>>288213050>That is literally what you're saying.It's not but strawman away>It's bad writing because they seemingly have all the intelligence, self awareness, understanding of morality, self-control, etc to be able to seemingly stop doing thisThey don't because they would first need to actually care about human life and value anything other than their own survival>I want them to be well writtenThey are adequately written. You just don't like it as evidence by this thread>Which is retarded writingAgain. Something you don't like isn't automatically bad writing>Nah, I'd rather keep a retard like you in check Lol, Lmao even. >Because they don't want to be killed by humans and their survival as a species depends on it? Some demons are shown to care about demons as a whole like the Demon King, Schlatt, and that one guy with the century long curse. And it's dubious if the latter cares about anyone other than himself. Demons are generally individualistic. Teamwork and group survival are tertiary thoughts to them for the most part and groups are formed out of necessity. >>288213095 doesn't contradict shit. >They contradict their supposed evil nature so muchIt's evil from a human perspective but demons don't care about our concept of good and evil in the first place.
>>288213107>The story will tell you they’re like animals, but characterize them as people.A couple characters call them beasts and animals but clearly have a bias and disdain for demons. Other characters treat them exactly as they would another human to terrible ends. The only contradiction is that people take the former group as speaking as a narrator and not a character in a world. >It’ll make good and evil a matter of biology.The setting already has many other species of monsters. All of them disappear into a black mist when killed like Demons, and their origins are unknown but clearly malicious towards the rest of humanity. So yes, in this case good and evil from a human perspective are a matter of biology for demons. That says nothing about the more nuanced approaches to the topic exhibited by the actually human characters. >And it clashes with themes of the story.If demons were the only characters the cast interacted with you might have a point. But the story has groups like the Shadow Warriors who actually embody an analysis on the themes of the story and demons are largely just a big bad monster for the story to use as an easy antagonist. And as a vehicle to explore humans better when interactions occur.
>>288213122>It's not but strawman awayYou're literally too retarded to know what your arguments even are. >They don't because they would first need to actually care about human life and value anything other than their own survivalThey don't even seem to care about that because they keep killing people and keep dying, which is exactly what I'm critiquing. >Again. Something you don't like isn't automatically bad writingLe everything is subjective cope>Lol, Lmao even. Yeah, it is pretty funny how easily I'm destroying you and your retarded series. >demons don't care about our concept of good and evil in the first place.If that's the case, then they wouldn't think other demons dying is wrong, or that hiding your mana to trick them is wrong.
>>288213185>You're literally too retarded to know what your arguments even are.I know what I'm arguing. You don't know what you are arguing against. The actual story or your expectation of the story. >which is exactly what I'm critiquing. Yes, you are mad that there is a fantasy race of creatures hostile towards humanity on a biological and thematic basis even though you mistake their sapience for the potential for good despite all evidence to the contrary and an entire arc explaining why this would never work. >Le everything is subjective copeSee, another strawman. I'm not saying everything is subjective. I'm saying you don't like something and that's the basis for your critique. Not actual contradictions or flaws within the narrative as your examples have been thoroughly debunked and eradicated. >Yeah, it is pretty funny how easily I'mLol, Lmao even>If that's the case, then they wouldn't think other demons dying is wrong, or that hiding your mana to trick them is wrong.What does group survival and a petty instance of pride most likely born from instinctual displays of power have to do with the concept of good and evil from a human perspective? Or are you trying to confuse the topic by pretending that demons having their own internal code of morality means they can actually integrate a compatible human morality system? Because as has been tirelessly discussed, they cannot.
>>288213120If tigers were sentient they would still be able to kill people at a moments notice. People don't kill people because we have emotions and social norms that go against it. An individual of another species with entirely different social behavior would not think killing humans is bad just because it has higher reasoning. Any decision to not kill humans would have to come entirely from a place of cold hearted logic. Which is probably possible for Frieren demons, but it's not something they have any incentive to do. The balance of power between humans and demons isn't lopsided enough to make demons feel like they need to stop killing humans for self-preservation. Animals today don't normally hunt us because we can snuff out man-eaters in record times using current technology. Greater Demons on the other hand can spend literal centuries going around killing people, the fact that demons that old can even exist shows that humanity isn't oppressive enough to force demons to rethink what they're doing.
>>288213162>The only contradiction is that people take the former group as speaking as a narrator and not a character in a world.These characters that you're talking about are meant to be the word of god and not some fallible, easily proven wrong people that aren't meant to be framed as 100% in the right. Frieren's characters ARE the word of god. All of it is very simple, and spelled out. All of it is easy to understand and apply. Which is why these contradictions are so obvious that anyone with a brain would be able to pick up on them. >So yes, in this case good and evil from a human perspective are a matter of biology for demons. Which... is exactly my problem with it. You're just pointing out the problem. Good and evil being a matter of unchangeable biology is a rather problematic mindset and doesn't bode well for the rest of the series and its themes. >and demons are largely just a big bad monster for the story to use as an easy antagonist.Yes, and they contradict the story's themes, which you haven't actually addressed or refuted.
>>288213220>I know what I'm arguing. You don't know what you are arguing against. The actual story or your expectation of the story.I'm arguing against the actual story you fucking retard. I'm pointing out how it's own logic doesn't make any fucking sense, and all you've done is repeat what the story says. Yeah, no shit, we know what the story says. It's retarded, and I'm pointing out why. >Yes, you are mad that there is a fantasy race of creatures hostile towards humanity on a biological and thematic basis even though you mistake their sapience for the potential for good despite all evidence to the contrary and an entire arc explaining why this would never work. I'm pointing out that a purely evil race cannot be sentient. Because if a race is sentient, they cannot be pure evil. To be sentient, and to have all the free will that comes with that, means the capability to choose to do good. They cannot be treated as pure evil in that case. That's what makes it contradictory and badly written. You still are not understanding this nearly five hours of arguing later.>Lol, Lmao evenContinue coping.>What does group survival and a petty instance of pride most likely born from instinctual displays of power have to do with the concept of good and evil from a human perspective?They literally think that hiding your mana to trick them is wrong. They treat it as an injustice, like Lugner did with Fern. He wasn't just pissed off about not winning, he was pissed off because he felt like an injustice had been done to him. He calls Fern a disgrace and says that she's disgusting for doing so. He considers what she did wrong. There's no reason they would consider an action wrong if they were truly amoral. This isn't a part of their mimicry either since it's something that only demons are stated to care about.
>>288213220>Or are you trying to confuse the topic by pretending that demons having their own internal code of morality means they can actually integrate a compatible human morality system? No. If they have their own system of morality, and understand what morality is, on top of being sentient, they should be able to adopt a different set of morals. No explanation beyond "it's just nature, despite the fact that humans and other races can overcome their nature" is ever offered. They're just "evil because they're demons". That's literally all it is. The author is a retard and you're an even bigger retard for trying to defend this godawful dogshit.
>>288213233>If tigers were sentient they would still be able to kill people at a moments noticeIf they were sentient on the level of a human being, they'd be able to be communicated with and thus become another moral agent on the level of a human being, and thus, very easily, we could solve a conflict with them non violently if there was ever any, because now they'd have the capacity for higher level thinking and morality.
>>288213233>but it's not something they have any incentive to do.If a race is sentient and capable of free will and change, then they can't really be "pure evil" by definition because they'd have the ability to choose not to be evil.Demons having intelligence and an understanding of human morality means they have all the components necessary to choose not to kill, or to adopt a different moral code. Several of the demons even expressly want to, so its not a matter of pure choice. The problem is the manga gives no explanation for why they cannot change that would not apply to the human characters in the story who can.At a basic level, if Demons are capable of intelligence and reasoning, or even just pure selfishness, their behavior makes no sense. Even a complete sociopath with zero regard or understanding of others is capable of blending into society by learning simple cause and effect.A Demon that lies and mimics humans only to advance it's own selfish agenda, ultimately should just live the lie so much that they understand how to navigate human society without provoking any possible threat to themselves. This is especially true because Demons don't actually need to feed on humans in order to live, therefore their incentive to kill humans is not very high. Even a wild dog can understand conditioned principles of consequence, and a rat won't press a button that only shocks them with no reward.
>>288213239>These characters that you're talking about are meant to be the word of goBased on the fact that they are important? Or the fact that what they are saying holds up under scrutiny? >Good and evil being a matter of unchangeable biology is a rather problematic mindsetWhy? There are other characters and other ways to examine the themes of the story while still having a race of evil evolved mimics. Hell, Macht does a great job because his failure still showed us a lot about humans. >and they contradict the story's themesWhy is it bad for the themes of the story that some characters don't engage with them in a completely positive manner? >>288213287>>288213300>I'm pointing out how it's own logic doesn't make any fucking senseYou haven't>a purely evil race cannot be sentientWhy can't a fictional race be evil by human standards again? >They literally think that hiding your mana to trick them is wrongThis means they can be good by human standards because?>they should be able to adopt a different set of moralsWhy?
>>288213363>Based on the fact that they are important? Or the fact that what they are saying holds up under scrutiny?Based on the fact that the story never once frames Frieren for being in the wrong despite all the contradictions that are shown of the demons. Based on the fact that this is a shounen story with incredibly easy to understand themes and a story that's basically spelled out for you. This isn't something complex.>Why? There are other characters and other ways to examine the themes of the story while still having a race of evil evolved mimicsBecause biological determinism goes inherently against the theme of the story being about how everyone's experiences are valuable and we can learn something from them. Creating an entire race that, by that same logic, then says that there are certain groups that are just not worth considering, goes against that whole theme entirely. >Why is it bad for the themes of the story that some characters don't engage with them in a completely positive manner?Notice what you're doing here? I'm talking about the base concept of the demons, not what the characters are thinking of them. You're fundamentally incapable of separating an in-universe explanation from an out of universe meta critique. >You haven't>Demons only communicate to decieve>Seconds later shows two demons communicating with >>288208710>The entire scene with Master Revolte and the demon child>>288213095NONE of which you've addressed by the way.
>>288212905That doesn't make it wrong that makes it dangerous
>>288213363>Why can't a fictional race be evil by human standards again?Because to be sentient, and to have all the free-will that comes with that means you have the ability to choose not to be evil, and the entire race cannot be treated as such if they have that choice.>This means they can be good by human standards because?Because to be sentient, and to have all the free-will that comes with that means you have the ability to choose not to be evil, and the entire race cannot be treated as such if they have that choice.>Why?Because to be sentient, and to have all the free-will that comes with that means you have the ability to choose not to be evil, and the entire race cannot be treated as such if they have that choice.
>>288213407>Based on the fact that the story never once frames Frieren for being in the wrongThe constant complaining seems to indicate that some people think she might be wrong despite also taking her words verbatim. Almost like it's some kind of contradiction and there's more nuance here>about how everyone's experiences are valuable and we can learn something from themYou can learn from bad things. Demons provide a simple lesson>I'm talking about the base concept of the demonsAnd I'm asking how this base nature contradicts or otherwise undermines the themes of the story. Seems like Demons are perfect for their purpose and allowed someone like Lord Gluck and Macht to explore humanity for an entire arc along with Denken and other characters. Even if the end result was the realization that Macht was not able to achieve even an iota of his goal and instead the commentary on humanity for his part was somber. >Demons only communicate to decieve>Seconds later shows two demons communicating with This is always a retarded talking point. I and many others have addressed this>NONE of which you've addressed by the way.I did. You didn't like it>>288213432>Because to be sentient, and to have all the free-will that comes with that means you have the ability to choose not to be evilThey don't have a concept of evil aligned with how humanity views it. X3 because you keep repeating yourself like it proves a point.
Frieren threads remind me of D&D threads>Demons and devils are evil aligned!! Stop humanizing them!!Literally the same discussions
>>288213491You're giving OP too much credit
>>288213477>The constant complaining seems to indicate that some people think she might be wrong despite also taking her words verbatim. Almost like it's some kind of contradiction and there's more nuance hereThe problem with this idea is that the characters and the story never once frame Frieren for being in the wrong about any of this regarding the demons. If this was meant to be about her growth as a character, they would have shown some acknowledgement about her being wrong, but they never have. >You can learn from bad things. Demons provide a simple lessonWhich goes against the themes of the story.>And I'm asking how this base nature contradicts or otherwise undermines the themes of the storyI literally just explained it. Because biological determinism goes inherently against the theme of the story being about how everyone's experiences are valuable and we can learn something from them. Creating an entire race that, by that same logic, then says that there are certain groups that are just not worth considering, goes against that whole theme entirely. This is why I keep having to use the repetition. It literally will not break through your tard helmet no matter how hard I try, it seems.>This is always a retarded talking point. I and many others have addressed thisSo address it and refute it.>I didNo, you didn't.>They don't have a concept of evil aligned with how humanity views itOh, okay. What's stopping them from aligning themselves with how humanity views it? Regardless though, I think I'm done for the night, and I think I've more than shown how stupid the writing is, and how even more willingly ignorant and stupid the fanbase of this show is .
>>288213520>Willfully ignorantYou've done nothing but ignore the key points this whole time
>>288213568Says the guy who couldn't respond to any examples of contradictions when presented.
>>288213590Weren't you leaving?
>>288213307They would have the capacity for higher thinking, but not morality. As a predatory species that needs to eat meat to survive, the tigers would have to evolve their own version of sentience that excludes empathy for other species. Tigers that feel bad for the deer they're supposed to eat would simply be weeded out by natural selection. Guilt and fear of consequences are the two main things that allow humans to coexist without murdering each other for the slightest inconveniences. Coexistence based solely off the fear of consequences may be possible, but that can only happen if murdering humans isn't something they can easily get away with. Sentient tigers in our world would probably play nice since doing otherwise would mean getting tracked down and shot dead by firearms they have no answer to. Sentient tigers in a medieval fantasy world, that can also fly around and cast magic on par and sometimes even better than human magic, likely wouldn't see treating humans well as necessary for their survival.
>>288213611Demons don't have to eat people to survive. This entire comparison falls flat.
>>288213520>The problem with this idea is that the characters and the story never once frame Frieren for being in the wronDidn't people ITT bring up the fact that Frieren admits that Macht might have been able to achieve some semblance of humanity, but it would require a mountain of bodies? Convenient that this is forgotten when convenient>Which goes against the themes of the story.How? No story is beholden to the idea that every single moment positively reinforces the themes. Inverting and subverting themes are also valid methods of storytelling>Because biological determinism goes inherently against the theme of the story being about how everyone's experiences are valuable and we can learn something from themYou can learn from bad experiences and some people don't learn at all. Look at the shadow warriors. The old man in that unnamed village who realized he actually had a family learned. I doubt the current group of shadow warriors will and they will undoubtedly die for it. It's a lesson and exploration of the theme>So address it and refute it.Scroll up>What's stopping them from aligning themselves with how humanity views it? Biology>I think I'm done for the nightLater bitch. Cool your head and actually think next time you read a story instead of regurgitating talking points that would have gotten off tumblr a decade ago.
>>288213624Them not needing to eat meat to survive doesn't matter if they descend from a predator species that did need to eat meat to survive. Developing sentience does not automatically entail developing a mindset that's 1:1 with human beings, if anything the opposite is more likely because we are dealing with something that is explicitly not a human, or even related to them.
>>288213095>Selfish sociopath demands praiseRevolte would be just as likely to kill that one himself for daring to ask something of a stronger demon.
>>288213734>Revolte would be just as likely to kill that one himselfYou don't even have to go that far. When that demon child is killed Revolte didn't even care because he only wanted an opening to try and save his own skin. To him that kid was just a contingency based on his observations of humans, just like how he knew there would be someone left behind to protect the corpses of those slain.
>>288206427>without killing a single personhe killed dozens of his human handler political enemies & their families and soldiers/servants
>>288212310I don't kill any chickens, yet I still eat chicken every other day
>>288206427He was rules-lawyering his murder compulsion by saying to himsefl that he would kill everyone... but later. Just like before that he was doing so by making humans kill each other. He could not do deceive himself anymore when he realized that his human friend can just die naturally from old age at any moment.>but yet the series still tries to say that they're just animals that can't help themselves. The series does not say that, though.
>>288207183>The reality is that the author wrote them as free-willed, sapient individuals with senses of self and variance in personality, while at the same time, tried to say that they're all simply evil.Depending on how canon the second prelude novel is, they all are born with an irrational urge to kill specifically humans (eating is unimportant, but, well, if you feel hunger, eating is the logical step). The urge can be fought with sheer willpower, but also they all are feral apex predator children, whose instinctive reaction to real or perceived threats is attacking, rather than trying to talk things out, and just like with humans, if you really want to do something, your brain starts throwing "rational" reasons why you should. And by the time they're powerful enough that survival is not an immediate concern, and they have time for real introspection, they have slaughtered so many humans that killing them is internalized. And the story very obviously treats all of this as a tragedy. That's the whole reason we're having these threads. Pic extremely related.
>>288213817>When that demon child is killed Revolte didn't even care because he only wanted an opening to try and save his own skin.If he didn't care, why even waste breath on praising her in the middle of battle? Note, this is not a series, where anyone ever has a strong outward emotional reaction to bad things happening to their comrades in battle.
>>288214656>why even waste breath on praising her in the middle of battle?Revolte didn't praise the younger demon. It was the retard congratulating himself and the very next page is Revolte not caring and only thinking about how clever he was for using such an opportunity.
>>288213687>The old man in that unnamed village who realized he actually had a family learned.It only took him about half a century and a sizeable pile of corpses, and he still tried to kill Frieren for no other reason that she was on his meaningless list, and only hesitated at the very last moment. Shadow warriors are quite clearly human counterparts to demons. They are introduced to show that human biology does not keep you from being turned into a living weapon that keeps killing because that's what weapons do.>>288214685>Revolte didn't praise the younger demon. Anon, you must have eyes if you post in this thread. Use them. The picture is already posted for you convenience.
>>288214711>It only took him about half a century and a sizeable pile of corpsesHumans can feel emotions like the ones the shadow warrior in the village felt. Demons would never>The picture is already posted for you convenienceContext is clearly not your forte and given your post I still thought you would have left already. Revolte doens't actually care about that dead demon so whatever technicality you thing exists for "praise" starts and ends with "this retard thought I cared about him but I never did" and if you think otherwise, explain why Revolte previously explained his tactics for attacking mages on the backline and why this differs from using a younger demon to distract anyone that puts up a fight. His praise is hollow like any demon expression of camaraderie or cooperation.
>>288214738>No, I won't use my eyes!Ok, whatever.
>>288214758>No, I won't use context and obvious facts in front of meOk, whatever.
>>288211539>Not a single demon has ever experienced Grief Solitar. Suicidal depression, even.>or longing.Macht.
>>288206427Did the anime cover this arc? Thinking back, It’s probably the last arc I enjoyed from the manga before I dropped it
>>288213105>But at the end of the day it's still a wild animal that can decide to kill you at any time.In fact, no. He won't decide to kill you at any time. His just won't be able to communicate frustrations building up in him, because you don't share a language. And you would probably ignore dangerous signs, because things worked out before. >It takes generations of breeding and artificial selection to make animals that are consistently safe to be around, like dogs.Yes, not all creatures are mind-broken loving slaves, and even dogs lose that trait after 2-3 generations of living on the streets. So?Anyway, the whole fucking "discussion" mostly exists, because in the real world the difference between a person and a non-person is having a language. And every single fucking time anyone tried to draw the line differently, it served as a justificaiton for atrocities. Frieren draws the line differently. Using arguments which are immediately vitiated by the story itself. The only reason not to discard the whole setup as a thinly-veiled dehumanization propaganda is the fact that the story increasingly indicates that things are, in fact, more complex than they seem.
>>288206427You do not understand because you are reddit.
>>288212447>He was literally incapable of understanding the contradiction of his curiosity.He can, though. Literally from the first pages of his flashback he understands that his actions result in humans feeling fear, sorrow, rage, anger and hatred, which directly translate into a desire to kill. Even a completely emotionless automaton who just does not want to be pestered would have concluded that maybe he should not slaughter humans, or at least limit himself to clear self-defense. Even a heartless predator who only pretends would have invoked some by-the-rote bullshit along the "I've changed now, and slaughtering adventurers who wander into my domain despite my spectacular wanings is a justified self-defense".But in this page Macht cannot draw conclusions literally any being capable of basic logic would be able to draw. This has to be either shit writing, or a pointer that the demons' behavior is malevolently altered to the point where they cannot question the need to kill humans. Since the introduction of the shadow warriors, whose rationality shuts down the same way, I'm inclined towards the latter.
>>288215191>But in this page Macht cannot draw conclusions literally any being capable of basic logic would be able to draw.You're being too autistic over this. People, demons, all living things are inherently driven by emotion rather than logic. Logic is an advanced capability of reasoning to best determine an action that resolves in your emotional needs (including survival and overall satisfaction) being fulfilled. Human society and coexistence is only possible due to specific emotions that we have developed alongside evolution. Feeling satisfaction from being part of something greater, feeling love and care for your family, friends and neighbors, a strong distaste for needless death, guilt, a need for external validation, etc. These feelings are inherent in us and allow us to feel best when we align with society. "What's stopping demons from coexistence" is the wrong question (as you know) because it assumes that they have a motivation for coexistence which they do not since it brings them no happiness. It does nothing for them. Asking "What reasons do they have to coexist?" is the better question. So far curiosity and survival were shown. Both fleeting and difficult to control/predict from the human side.
>>288215769I genuinely applaud you for a your thought-out answer. And I do believe that in principle there is nothing wrong with the story that features solitary bipedal big cats growing to be smart and strong and magical enough to treat humans as mice, while also being so pretty that we're instinctively driven to adore them in- and out-of-setting. Set at the time when humanity finally advanced enough to get an upper hand against its predators.I just don' think that Frieren is this story. For starters, if demons are actually predators, why they mostly receive no positive emotional reinforcement from slaughtering their prey, or are surprised and even a bit ashamed of it? Especially given that eating humans is also unimportant to them: there is no unavoidable physical need (though mana-rich humans are nutritious), and there is also no emotional drive to take a bite, even when you're riled up and need to recover your strength and the victim is easily available. Instead they treat they slaughter along the "it's just what we do, shut up and stop asking questions" line.> "What's stopping demons from coexistence" is the wrong question (as you know) because it assumes that they have a motivation for coexistence which they do not since it brings them no happiness. Asking "What reasons do they have to coexist?" is the better question. I disagree with the notion that coexistence brings them no happiness. Let's look at Solitar first. A demon uniquely positioned to do just what she wants. And what she wants is to read books, chat with humans and to set up a fucking natural history museum, surprisingly devoid of creepy shit you would expect from a demon, like human exhibits. Would not her ends be better served by establishing a relationship with humans that won't require from her to murder everyone after every conversation and depopulating whole areas? Obviously yes. But she doesn't even try, and brushes off the very idea with versions of "that's just how things are".
>>288216162(cont.)Then Macht is obviously happier living in Weisse than he ever was before or after. Not only he says so, his "I'm so bored with this life" face disappears for the entire sequence. And as he turns the whole city into gold, he does so with the explicit hope that the bracer would kill him. Again, he says so, and later confirms in his internal monologue. After the bracer does nothing, he does not move from the single spot for fuck knows how long - travel from Auserst to Weisse takes Frieren and Denken about a year (a full circle of seasons passes), and while Serie's party probably was much faster, she still doesn't know teleportation. Even for a long-lived creature this is quite extreme and indicates a severe "what have I done?" moment.The obvious question then is: if coexistence actually satisfied his emotional and intellectual needs, why Macht still could not help but turn the city to gold?
>>288216234>if coexistence actually satisfied his emotional and intellectual needsIt aligns with what we know of demons. He was able to kill plenty without repercussions. He should be happier there and consider coexistence a great boon since he was in a unique position where he could indulge in his joy of killing without any repercussions. He also didn't need to worry about other demons backstabbing him. He was in a demons paradise. >why Macht still could not help but turn the city to gold?Because his need for climbing the social ladder wasn't met. Demons are, even more so than us, a very hierarchical species. It'd be unnatural for him not to sabotage himself in a desire for greater things after fulfilling his other needs and living in perfect safety. Overconfidence is a slow and insideous killer or so they say.
>>288216352NTA but I still don't see why they simply don't put themselves at top of human structures if they could coexist even in limited degreeLike Bantu used to hunt and eat pygmies but also enslave them and use as laborers and auxiliaries - we do not see similar mechanic here
>>288206427Macth is specifically stated as an eccentric among his kind. He circumstantially decides to observe one person due to curiosity and his interpretation of that person´s wishes end up turning the whole city to gold anyways. That is not empathy nor understanding, his pledge of loyalty meant nothing, he just swore it because it allowed him to do as he wished unhindered.
>>288216389>I still don't see why they simply don't put themselves at top of human structuresWell, you can't just put yourself at the top of something just like how I can't just put myself in as president starting tomorrow. That stuff takes a lot of effort no matter how you go about it and once it happens you then have to govern it which is a whole 'nother ordeal in it's own right. >we do not see similar mechanic hereI would say that's because that's an entirely different setting but there isn't necessarily a reason why some demons shouldn't have human slaves somewhere we haven't seen yet. On a larger scale it wouldn't make sense since humans are the dominating race here.
>>288216470they have both power and intelligence and have some sort of hierarchyon the other hand when some humans are strong enough to fight on equal grounds with demons, most are just defenceless and would die to wet fartso if anything, the demons don't put themselves on top of human or get human servant of slaves mostly because they don't any need for it, same as they feel need to slaughter humans even if there is no immediate gaini agree with the other anon that their blood thirst against humans is probably mostly biological, aka basic needmaybe they are some sort of biological weapons or automatons or something that later achieved sapience but still didn't overcome their programmed imperatives - thus hunting humans and being unable to coexist
>>288215083It's the most retarded writing.
>>288213687Okay, retard. It's obvious you aren't getting what I'm saying in the slightest. You can keep bringing up explanations within the series that explains why the demons are the way that they are, but that fundamentally doesn't change my criticism, especially when said explanations about the demons are constantly contradicted, which you have never once argued against. I've brought up multiple times these contradictions and you have not addressed them at all.>Scroll upYou didn't address the point of language being a tool for deception being contradicted and you didn't address the fact that the child that's praising master Revolte is clearly showing feelings that the demons are stated to absolutely not have. He's acting happy and excited like any normal human kid would. >Didn't people ITT bring up the fact that Frieren admits that Macht might have been able to achieve some semblance of humanity,She is still framed as 100% in the right, regardless of her admitting that. She still wants to genocide all demons, and the story is still completely on her side in wanting to eradicate them. The story does not frame Frieren as being too extreme in her beliefs, ever. >BiologyThat same biology that gave them higher level thinking in the first place? It's so obvious how flimsy of an answer this is and you're only using it as your final trump card because you have nothing else to argue against me with, even despite repeatedly showing you how stupid of an answer this is. I'll refute your retarded reasoning about the story's themes in a second.
>>288216162>I genuinely applaud you for a your thought-out answer.I don't know why but I feel like I should give this more of an answer. I don't think that the other replies given to you weren't thought out. The issue is that (I think) you're on the spectrum. Normies have an instinctual understanding of how social interactions work but they don't necessarily understand them on a level beyond that. The reasons given to you in this thread are self evident to normies. If autists who are lacking that instinctual understanding take normies by face value they'll be left confused like you are. So I just tried to convey the underlining concepts that guide normies from a (I think) fellow autists perspective.
>>288206427People only like Frieren because the MC is a pro-genocide racist.
>>288213687>How? No story is beholden to the idea that every single moment positively reinforces the themes. Inverting and subverting themes are also valid methods of storytellingExcept the demons do not reinforce the themes at all, or subvert them. They're biologically made to be the way that they are and they never had the choice to be good or understand people in the same way that Frieren did. A way to subvert would be having the demons be entirely capable of choosing good but still choosing evil.You can smooth out the logic of the world as much as you want, explain why the demons are the way that they are as definitively as you can, but doing so does not change or justify what a world created to be like that is promoting. What its logic is telling the audience it values, or if a story with that logic is even good in the first place. The story of Frieren is ultimately one about empathy and learning to appreciate and understand others. Even those you might consider less than. This is shown repeatedly through her large life span compared to humans and her great power. And yet, through its own logic the story proudly says that some beings are just wholly undeserving of empathy entirely not for any specific actions they might take but just on the basis of their existence, they are in fact lesser. Frieren's journey is one about seeing how others around her benefit her life and have their own complete and complex experiences that are just as valuable as her own. And yet through its own logic the story says that the experiences of some beings are just completely worthless by virtue of them being born as something that can only cause harm. A story about how anyone can overcome their own limitations even those imposed by the nature of their birth and how they can always achieve the impossible, repeatedly shows us characters that it says will never do so no matter how hard they try.
>>288214625That fundamentally does not change the criticism that I posted. They're far more than smart enough to overcome their base biological urges, but the story won't let them because of bad writing.
>>288213698>Developing sentience does not automatically entail developing a mindset that's 1:1 with human beings,Developing sentience means that you have the capability of changing your mindset in the first place. Especially if you are on the level with a person.
I just wanna kill humans. I was born that way. No, I don't wanna coexist. That is gay.
>>288217069>through its own logic the story proudly says that some beings are just wholly undeserving of empathy entirely not for any specific actions they might take but just on the basis of their existenceThe dosis makes the gift. The story recognizes the value of empathy and also the danger of being empathetic to people who mean you harm. The demons basis of their existence influences them to undertake specific actions at a great rate which are wholly antagonistic to the concept of empathy and human cooperation. Wether you see real world politics in this or disagree with the authors opinion is one thing but the world buidling is not badly written just because of your difference in opinion, anon.
>>288217030>The issue is that (I think) you're on the spectrum.I was never formally diagnosed, so, I guess, I can mostly pass for a normie, but I'll freely admit that I'm quite antisocial. So, thanks for your efforts.
>>288217315>the story recognizes the value of empathy and also the danger of being empathetic to people who mean you harm.Through no fault of their own other than being born a certain way. Stop doing this thing where you refuse to acknowledge the actual point and instead keep tap dancing around it. You're being super dishonest like every other Frierentard that tries to argue against this.>The demons basis of their existence influences them to undertake specific actions at a great rate which are wholly antagonistic to the concept of empathyAnd I've explained why that's bad in terms of what the story is trying to say and the themes. You sound like you've opened up a thesaurus and are trying to make yourself sound as complex and as "intelligent" as possible to give your posts this aura of sophistication. Perfectly in like with a pseudo intellectual, nothing anime like Frieren.>the world buidling is not badly written just because of your difference in opinion, anon.Except this isn't a difference in opinion. This is just the "everything is subjective" cope to try and dismiss any criticism. Everything that the story is presenting as it's themes and messages are entirely contradicted by the existence of and the idea of the demons.
>>288217406>Through no fault of their own other than being born a certain way.Yes, what a tragedy isn't it? Plenty other tragedies out there. People with BPD have usually been severely abused during their childhood. Sadly no matter the backstory without treatment they are a danger to anyone who offers them empathy. Luckily for them they weren't born with it thoughever so treatment does exist and is considered generally effective. People born with fetal alcohol syndrome are far less lucky. Their sociopathic tendencies are far harder to deal with. Tragic backstories or luck of the draw are ultimately no more than a sentimental thought for after the problem has been dealt with in whatever way fits the situation.>This is just the "everything is subjective" cope to try and dismiss any criticismThe concept of suicidal empathy is very much a widespread concept among professions that work closely with rejects of society as a means of protection.
>>288217315My problem with this take is that marking people who mean you harm with horns greatly simplifies and distorts the supposed moral lesson. Frieren on the first glance, appears to be a reaction to various "my own Dragon Quest with blackjack and hookers" works where demons are just people with horns and whatever animal features, who get unjustly vilified. (See Helck, for one of the better examples.) Lugner and Macht specifically take shots "solving long-running existential conflicts is as simple as getting rid of prejudice" drivel. Which is usually drivel, yes. The problem is, just sticking it to fantasy works you don't like does not make for a compelling message and "they're evil because they're evil" is less deep than actual Dragon Quest.
>>288217501>Yes, what a tragedy isn't it? Plenty other tragedies out thereOne that entirely contradicts the entire themes of Frieren. Something that you are still. not. grasping. Holy fucking shit, how many times am I going to have to explain this shit to you? Also, all of those examples you are giving are literally proof against the exact opposite point that Frieren is making here. Empathy, and change is completely possible in those people, yet in demons, it's not. What about this are you not understanding? >The concept of suicidal empathyOh, I'm dealing with a retarded Pollack. Something that makes up a large portion of the fanbase of Frieren in the west.
>>288217555>>288217555>"they're evil because they're evil"are they?they just like to kill and eat people, there are more of force of nature like earthquakes or tsunamisyou don't really negotiate with sort of these
>>288217563>Oh, I'm dealing with a retarded Pollack.Lol I knew it. You're entirely driven by politics.>>288217555>My problem with this take is that marking people who mean you harm with horns greatly simplifies and distorts the supposed moral lesson.>The problem is, just sticking it to fantasy works you don't like does not make for a compelling message and "they're evil because they're evil" is less deep than actual Dragon Quest.I guess? I don't know if I feel the same way. I don't see a need to make it more obscure and grayish. Black and white isn't inherently bad just like how gray isn't inherently good. Imo if the author wants to convey the limitations of healthy empathy in todays climate then it's better to make it black and white since even then some people are just unwilling to refuse the entire concept based entirely on what it would mean for their specific interpretation of the real life world.
>>288217069>And yet, through its own logic the story proudly says that some beings are just wholly undeserving of empathy entirely not for any specific actions they might take but just on the basis of their existence, they are in fact lesser.But is it? Here's Frieren and the very opponent she addressed here:>>288214625the demon who pressured her physically and mentally, and intentionally tried to make Frieren mad, and brutalized her wards for shits and giggles. And yet Frieren is clearly unable to uphold her promise about feeling no grief. Your points might have been valid based on earlier arcs, where demons are just episodic villains with little development. Yet by now the series is clealy in KnY territory, where demons still have to be put down, due to colossal danger they represent, but this is painted as a tragic necessity.
>>288206427Because Frieren is poorly written with zero direction. Watch Witch Hat Atelier if you want consistent world building, coherent themes, and a plot that doesn't meander.
>see lions can co-exist with lambs because this one isn't currently killing them>Yeah he's going to do it eventually, but the fact he isnt doing it right now means it's possible There's something about Frieren that causes the contrarians towards the series to be particularly retarded, and you know it's entirely because they equate it to real world politics somehow and it hurt their feelings, so they constantly feel like they have to disprove the series
>>288217563>Oh, I'm dealing with a retarded Pollack. Something that makes up a large portion of the fanbase of Frieren in the west.You can't really blame them. They are inundated with garbage like wojaks, mspaint FBI crime stats, aislop, and bad evangelical films because they're incapable of making good art. So Frieren is a step up from their perspective because it isn't a low effort shitpost nor a scam from their own party.I'd be a hardcore Frieren simp if I had to watch dogshit like Animal Farm on repeat.
>>288217915No one has an issue with objectively evil races in anime, you'd realize this if you weren't a tourist. Gurren Lagann, Transformers, DB, DBZ, Hunter x Hunter, Gantz, and Berserk have them.In reality, Frieren is just badly written.
You really just kept going instead of leaving huh? >>288216993>You can keep bringing up explanations within the series that explains why the demons are the way that they are, but that fundamentally doesn't change my criticismBecause you are trying to force the writing to work based on your own ideas and not it's own terms. And then crying about a made up "contradiction" as if the story is wrong for not making demons work the way you want them too. It's like someone complaining that the T-1000 should be capable of feeling empathy just because a reprogrammed T-800 eventually started to experience something resembling the human experience. >>288216993>You didn't address the point of language being a tool for deceptionread >>288208861>She is still framed as 100% in the right,About demons being irredeemable or about how demons might eventually be able to experience the human emotions they lack with enough time and bloodshed? >That same biology that gave them higher level thinking in the first place?Being smarter doesn't change the fact that they can't feel things like humans can at the end of the day. >>288217069>Word vomitOnce again. Why do the demons specifically have to positively reinforce the themes of the story. Why can't they exist as an antithesis to the journey of Frieren due to their total lack of ability to grow on an emotional level? Why is it bad writing for bad people to exist in a story? We obviously know that the Demon King was like Macht and said king established his capital on the ground Flamme said that human should could manifest. If you weren't blinded by your desire to force demons into a single interpretation you would see that this is still approaching an examination of how a fundamentally broken creature like a demon runs counter to humanity and why this discrepancy leads to destruction. Demons don't need to succeed to engage with the themes. That's your delusion.
>>288206427Doesn't that prove, rather, that co-existence is possible? Imagine a psychopath who makes a genuine effort to reform, and he eventually realizes after a decade that nothing fulfills him as much as killing people. Then there's an entire race of them, and they all feel just as empty inside unless they're horribly killing someone. The impulse will never go away, they cannot change, they will always crave it, and so they must all die.
>>288217992>Gurren Lagannwhat evil races?
>>288218036>It's like someone complaining that the T-1000 should be capable of feeling empathy just because a reprogrammed T-800 eventually started to experience something resembling the human experience.In the convoluted depths of the Terminator canon, Skynet eventually discontinued the T-1000 series, because they've started to develop too much independent thought and consequently deviate from their directives. Given that your opponent insists on sapient creatures being able to do exactly that (especially if they are not actively monitored for deviancy by an overlord AI), you're not helping your case.
>>288217915I feel like that is an unfair summation of the position. A lion is driven on instinct, a demon clearly doesn't have to be. Logically, a demon can conclude that their behavior provides them with no benefit and countless difficulties and adjust their behavior accordingly. If withdrawal results in serious physical and psychological aftereffects, then they might decide the drawbacks to not killing humans are significant enough to continue killing. But Macht shows that he can comfortably survive without killing humans. You can say "it is in his nature" but he's not an unthinking beast, he can evaluate things rationally. This isn't real world politics, this is just philosophy. Like, I'm not shitting on Frieren or being a contrarian, just the conclusion of Macht's arc made the entire thing seem pointless in a way that makes me question why even create Macht as a character.
>>288218036>Because you are trying to force the writing to work based on your own ideas and not it's own terms.Because the terms that the story lays out are retarded and I'm showing how they are. >Made up contradictionsI've repeatedly shown you multiple contradictions and you've danced around and refused to directly address them. Demons are stated to only use language to deceive. Then are shown using to for exchanging information. Demons have no parental affection. Then a demon child wants Revolte to give that to them. >ReadThat literally didn't refute a single thing I said. The story SAYS they only use language as a tool for deception, then shows them not doing that. You're just giving overcomplicated explanations for what's so obviously and clearly bad writing. They use language as a way to exchange information, not just to deceive. >About demons being irredeemableAbout her desire to genocide all of them based on them being irredeemable.>Being smarter doesn't change the fact that they can't feel things like humans can at the end of the day. Feeling things and being able to come to logical deductions and coming to your own sense of morality are not the same thing. You keep trying to confuse the two because you know that it disproves your entire argument.
>>288218036Demons can be demons, but why even raise the question if the answer is just "yeah, they're demons" after a bunch of chapters? Why make a "rational" demon if he ultimately decides that doing things out of a self-defeating biological instinct is the correct course of action?
>>288218036>>Word vomitLol, is this all you have left to dismiss everything I'm saying?>Why can't they exist as an antithesis to the journey of Frieren due to their total lack of ability to grow on an emotional level?They aren't the antithesis, because unlike her, they never had the chance to grow and change because of the nature of her birth.>Why is it bad writing for bad people to exist in a storyReductionism into strawman. >We obviously know that the Demon King was like Macht and said king established his capital on the ground Flamme said that human should could manifest.Not related to my argument.The entire idea of the demons being a foil to Frieren falls flat because they never chose to be the way that they are, according to the story's logic.
>>288218120>In the convoluted depths of the Terminator canonLook, I don't care about what comic book or novel that tidbit came from. The point is very clear as to the issues with projecting anything resembling human choice and empathy onto an entity that literally does not have the capacity for such within a specific story. >>288218156>Because the terms that the story lays out are retarded and I'm showing how they are.Failing is more like it. >I've repeatedly shown you multiple contradictionsNo>The story SAYSCharacters say but it's obvious they are still intelligent and their usage of language goes deeper than base mimickry because of that intelligence. Flamme and Frieren being dismissive of them is not the story saying demons are just parrots. >Feeling things and being able to come to logical deductions and coming to your own sense of morality are not the same thing. And this is why Macht could not understand human emotions like Malice or Grief. You are so close to understanding this simple topic but fall right at the finish line. >>288218167>but why even raise the question if the answer is just "yeah, they're demons" after a bunch of chapters?To provide some nuance on the exploration of a flawed entity incapable of having a true human experience despite their obvious intelligence? To give a little depth to an otherwise antagonistic race in a fantasy setting? >>288218197>The entire idea of the demons being a foil to Frieren falls flat because they never chose to be the way that they are, according to the story's logic.Why does an antithesis have to have a chance or choice in their flaws?
I think your rhetoric isn't doing you any favors here, OP. You might want to turn down the debate club tactics and maybe shift away from blanket statements like "bad writing". I genuinely think you have a point regarding some of the stuff we've seen with demons, but you drowned it out with your uneven focus and your desire to get the last word in with every single person trying to poke holes.
>>288218218>Failing is more like it.Yeah, that's what you're doing. Failing to show how I'm wrong.>NoYes.>Characters say but it's obvious they are still intelligent and their usage of language goes deeper than base mimickry because of that intelligence.So they're contradicted. They use language for more than just deception. Which directly contradicts what both Frieren and the demon says. Literally the demon agrees with this. So are the demons just so retarded that they don't understand themselves?>And this is why Macht could not understand human emotions like Malice or Grief. You are so close to understanding this simple topic but fall right at the finish line. As someone else already pointed out: He can, though. Literally from the first pages of his flashback he understands that his actions result in humans feeling fear, sorrow, rage, anger and hatred, which directly translate into a desire to kill. Even a completely emotionless automaton who just does not want to be pestered would have concluded that maybe he should not slaughter humans, or at least limit himself to clear self-defense. Even a heartless predator who only pretends would have invoked some by-the-rote bullshit along the "I've changed now, and slaughtering adventurers who wander into my domain despite my spectacular wanings is a justified self-defense". But in this page Macht cannot draw conclusions literally any being capable of basic logic would be able to draw.
>>288218218>Why does an antithesis have to have a chance or choice in their flaws?Because in order to actually make a foil for Frieren, they'd need to have a choice in the matter like her. If they don't, then there's really no foil here.
>>288218218>To provide some nuance on the exploration of a flawed entity incapable of having a true human experience despite their obvious intelligence? To give a little depth to an otherwise antagonistic race in a fantasy setting?I mean, that is a noble goal and I understand why you might want to do that, but the entire conversation is that this ultimately falls flat because the conclusion is the same ultimately simplistic idea that even when a demon examines something logically and concludes there's no benefit to killing, they will continue to do so simply because it is in their nature. This would be fine except we've seen that demons can contradict their nature so it raises a bunch of questions in regards to why they would choose not to if it provides them no benefit and shows that they are capable of simply weighing pros and cons. You can argue that it provides pleasure like nothing else or something, like it secretes a hormone. But Macht's behavior and demeanor does not change when he's not killing indiscriminately, so the effects are minor the grand scheme of things while the drawbacks are patently obvious.
>>288218279>As someone else already pointed outPretending you are a different person is not a good look anon. Things capable of complex thought use language for more than just mimicry. At the end of the day this doesn't override their evolutionary limitations when it comes to human emotions and concepts. >>288218297>Because in order to actually make a foil for FrierenWhy is having choice a requirement to be a foil? >>288218317>but the entire conversationThis entire conversation is about how OP didn't even remember that Macht spent 50 years unnecessarily killing people purely because he didn't care about human life. After he spent the better part of 30 years killing other humans he didn't care about because another human convinced him being hired muscle might help him understand humans better. He turned that human into a gold statue with no intention of releasing him and when this contradiction of "coexistence would mean not doing that" he was utterly flabbergasted why anyone would even point this out. There was never a contradiction in nature, only a confusion on his part between what he wanted to explore and what he was capable of experiencing.
>>288218218>To provide some nuance on the exploration of a flawed entity incapable of having a true human experience despite their obvious intelligence?What is "true human experience"? Can you frame it in a way that won't make it sound like Frieren (the story) argues for extermination of non-neurotypical people?>>288218135>Like, I'm not shitting on Frieren or being a contrarian, just the conclusion of Macht's arc made the entire thing seem pointless in a way that makes me question why even create Macht as a character.Being generous to the author, the revelation dropped by Lowe in Ch.147 is largely true. The purpose of Macht's arc then was to show the horror and tragedy of demons. And the conclusion of the series is uncovering their true origin, tied to the origin of magic and probably to Aureole (why the DK's castle stands right on top of it?) and, hopefully, doing something to fix the situation.But given faltering schedule of the manga before the latest hiatus, the author had simply written himself into the corner, and arcs starting with the mage exam were just placing black boxes, with no idea what it is inside.
>>288218456Okay, so I'm glad you took the first sentence, took a chunk of it and argued against OP's position rather than my own. Good talk. Regardless, he spent 30 years only killing humans per instruction and felt no worse for wear and was allowed to "coexist" as in, not be killed or stopped. If rationality is the premise of his character, there's no reason for him to choose to stop following that system for no benefit to himself and then getting himself killed for it.
>>288218513>in a way that won't make it sound like Frieren (the story) argues for extermination of non-neurotypical people?People really bend over backwards trying to make monsters wearing the guise of humanity into analogies to real life humans.
>>288218706>monsters wearing the guise of humanityPhrase as meaningless as "true human experience". If not in general, then in the context of Frieren. Listen, buddy, in the series where perfectly normal humans use child soldiers, and carpetbomb cities with magic, and kill just because someone long ago commanded them to kill, you better have some actual fucking explanation regarding the difference between a human and a monster.
>>288218770>you better have some actual fucking explanation regarding the difference between a human and a monster.How did the saying about talking with a leftie go again? Talking is meaningless because they'll just pretend to not understand or something like that.
>>288218456>Things capable of complex thought use language for more than just mimicry.Would have been nice if they had told us that, instead of making a blanket statement saying that they could only use it for deception, and then contradict themselves moments later. That's what you're still. not. acknowledging. They are contradicting what they say, versus what the demons actually show on screen. Stop being slimy and address this fucking point already.>Why is having choice a requirement to be a foil?Because it then would match with Frieren's character arc. Not having a choice means that they don't line up and are, as such, not a true foil. Actually address the arguments. Or don't. It's fun watching you desperately try to dance around them.
>>288218935This is literally what talking with Frieren fans is like. They'll pretend that justifying things with in-universe statements refutes an out of universe meta critique of a story. They'll pretend as though a watsonian answer can somehow overpower a doylist answer. They'll pretend as though the contradictions that are blatantly shown on screen simply don't exist.
>>288218770>you better have some actual fucking explanation regarding the difference between a human and a monster.Monsters don't have the capacity for grief and malice, among other emotions and concepts, at all. Even the shadow warriors have a sense of duty and true camaraderie
>>288219045It is hard to evaluate why a demon would start killing indiscriminately if the result is no benefit to the demon and him getting killed in retaliation if we assume Macht is acting rationally at all. Malice or sadism would be an explanation, but if Macht doesn't have that, he appears to only be acting upon the requirements of the narrative.
>>288206427It's incredibly simple.Let us assume that demons have intelligence and their primary goal is survival. Let us assume that their motivation for killing humans is survival. We can observe that the survival strategy is failing because their efforts have only resulted in humans becoming increasingly adept at killing demons. One might infer that the demons who attempt coexistence are motivated by this observation. A demon in this position should conclude the solution to coexistence is to not kill humans, but none ever do. Why is this? Because they're cosmologically evil in the setting. They're made of mana particles, the same as other monsters in the setting, which are distinct from normal animals. Beings created from mana particles have destructive impulses that prevent any logical or emotional reasoning that would lead them to the conclusion that nonviolence is the optimal behavior. They may entertain nonviolence, but are ultimately compelled to conclude that nonviolence has no value compared to killing. >but emotionsNot relevant. It doesn't matter if they experience none or some of the emotional range of humans, they will never feel emotionally inclined to stop them from killing humans.>but moralityAssuming demons have a sense of morality and don't view killing as morally positive, it's not a moral issue. The idea of not killing is brought up not on moral grounds, but as a scientific curiosity.>but Frieren saidBiased source who doesn't really care for the particulars of the subject matter, just uses rhetoric to quash sympathy in others and make it easier to kill without question.>but 50 yearsMay as well be 50 days considering the lifespan. Demons have the mental capacity to question the worth of killing humans, but lack the mental capacity to conclude that not killing is worthwhile.You are assuming that if a creature is intelligent then they must have uninhibited cognitive ability, which is not the case with demons. The inhibition is evident.
>>288218981>instead of making a blanket statement saying that they could only use it for deception, and then contradict themselves moments later.>Why would demons learn the human language?>only to deceive>*the human language*Bruh. The human language. Not a language. THE HUMAN language. Not just any language but THE HUMAN LANGUAGE. The reason why SPECIFICALLY THE HUMAN language is chosen by the demons is to deceive. They didn't ask "Why did demons learn ANY language" but why specifically THE HUMAN langugage >>288218279>>288219005Uh huh, sure, anon. You do you.
>>288219150not truewe kill people because we want to
>>288219186Yes and they are shown using human speech to talk to each other even when no humans are around to exchange information.
>>288219150>Because they're cosmologically evil in the setting. They're made of mana particles, the same as other monsters in the setting, which are distinct from normal animals. Beings created from mana particles have destructive impulses that prevent any logical or emotional reasoning that would lead them to the conclusion that nonviolence is the optimal behavior. They may entertain nonviolence, but are ultimately compelled to conclude that nonviolence has no value compared to killing.Was this stated or is this a conclusion you've drawn from the narrative? I mean, it is as fine an explanation as any, but I still think that means the Macht arc really failed to add much nuance to the whole affair. I do think that the use of the term "destructive impulse" is at odds with the presentation of Macht as a character who theoretically arrived "rationally" to his conclusion, but maybe I was simply believing his facade.
>>288219330Why speak the tongue of man? Why aren't demons speaking their own language
>>288219373I don't know. Ask the retard of an author that wrote them like that.
>>288219330Because that page didn't ask the question "Do demons communicate?" or "Do demons have a need for a language?", it specifically asks "WHY DID DEMONS CHOOSE SPECIFICALLY THE HUMAN LANGUAGE FOR COMMUNICATION?"
>>288219465They only use human language to deceive. Then seconds later shows them using it for reasons outside of that.
>>288219522Lmfao toddlers have a greater mental capacity than you do.
>>288219636I'm literally showing you what the text says and shows how it contradicts itself. You have no fucking argument. We know.
>>288218060They have their own set of morality, they understand what morality is, they know about other standards of morality, they have all the brain power to make their own decisions. There's literally nothing stopping them from adopting a different set of morals, but the series never explains why they cannot do this.
>>288219354Inference, but why else would the story draw a distinction between "monster" and "animal"? It's used by the setting to justify the existence of inherent evil from an anthrocentric point. Humans can be evil, but are not inherently so; as such, inherent evil must be something inhuman. The juxtaposition comes from placing that inherent evil into a human appearance.Macht might think he's being perfectly rational, and indeed he might not feel particularly strong emotional motivation to kill, but that comes back around to his mental inability to conclude otherwise.
>>288219817>they have all the brain power to make their own decisionsI think ultimately this is the thing that isn't true within the narrative. We're just supposed to believe that despite the appearance of rationality, they fundamentally have some sort of mental block when it comes to logical evaluations of pros and cons in regards to murder. The story doesn't "explain" it, but it does point to it and the conclusion of the Macht arc ultimately supports it. It doesn't mean I like the arc or think it is particularly well done, but I don't think it is just nonsense.
>>288219784Alright, I'll endulge you. What would have satisfied you? For them to start growling at each other to communicate? Clicking their tongues, a made up language, telepathy? Or have them instinctively understand what their superiors ask of them without visible communication? Or do they need to be purely solo actors? How would two demons meeting each other work? A non-verbal threat would be communication in itself as well so should they just not acknowledge each others existence?
>>288219904Well, that's convincing to me. It doesn't mean I like it, but it does fit the facts in universe. I still don't find it very interesting, but I don't find Frieren as a series all that interesting since it stopped doing SOL stuff as much. Macht was still better than the mage exam at least.
>>288206427Solitar has the highest IQ yet still gores humans for the lulz
>>288219970I mean, I'm not OP but I think solo actors would make sense with demons as described by the narrative. As for meeting of two demons, they would presumably function the same way other independent animals operate for the most part. Basic non-verbal communication largely driven by actions in order to achieve their own personal goals.
>>288219415You do know. It is because their usage of humanity language comes from their ancestors and their continued predation of humanity. Being smarter didnt take that disposition away
Why is Frieren the only series that has a retarded schizo try and whitewash the demons on it? You dont see this for the other 3000 series with demons
why do you retards still reply to OP instead of just reporting his troll threads?
>>288220128the other shows whitewash the demons themselves so OP doesn't have to
>>288220128I'll be honest, if it wasn't for Macht, I wouldn't spare a second thought about demons in Frieren. But Macht made it seem like there was more to them.
>>288220081That would change the entire setting. Demons are hierarchical creatures. The demon king couldn't exist with such a premise. There are other series that show more animalistic/bestial creatures like you are describing.
>>288220267I mean, yeah. Though I will say that in most settings, a "demon king" would simply be the most powerful demon. True, there wouldn't be a war as such. But it isn't that I desire a setting where demons are animalistic/bestial, my issue is that Frieren as a series has demons that aren't that but has characters describe their psychology in ways that would realistically lead to that. Now, you can say, "Oh, well, Frieren is just exaggerating" or something, but that isn't how the narrative paints the character and the scenes where these exchanges take place. I know this is a common sticking point, but the demons saying "mother is a word that makes humans not kill you" has a lot of dramatic flair as a reveal, but makes demons seem like morons or parrots rather than anything intelligent given their resources and in some ways, society. I hope what I am saying makes sense.
>>288219970>>288220092What would have satisfied me is the author not making the word of God characters make blanket statements about how the demons behave only to contradict it moments later
We’ve had this argument over and over again. Frieren is wrong, objectively and provably, when she says Demons are “animals” incapable of emotion or higher thought. We see Demons experience anger, frustration, pride, etc, and we see these things happen when there is no need for them to pretend. What actually seems to be happening with Demons is that they lack the capacity for empathy and are a race of high functioning sociopaths. It’s just baked into their dna that positive emotions and empathy don’t register. We don’t have an example of a Demon literally being raised from the moment of birth by another race, so we don’t really know if it’s possible for their inherent nature to get overcome with nurture.(it might well drive one mad to set learned behavior against instinct). They *do* seem to be inherently evil. And that’s fine, but they aren’t ai chat models along the lines of what Frieren thinks. They know what they are doing. Any “good” demon would just be a demon willing to not eat people, because they judge it advantageous for some reason to not do so, and in that context I’m not sure how you could ever befriend or trust such a person.
Well, maybe the story is filled with unreliable narrators
>>288220646>not making the word of God charactersFrieren is the person that declares a chest safe and the next panel she is waist deep in a mimics digestive system. "Word of God" isn't stretching how literal you should take her opinion on a subject she clearly has baggage with since demons nearly eradicated the elves. Flamme is not any more credible as she waged a one-woman against demons for years before taking on Frieren as a student.
>>288220686(Cont) It feels like there is probably a niche for an enterprising demon to play the long game and become known as a “good” example of their race for the sake of becoming an immortal king over the human plebs or whatever, but what we’ve constantly seen is that sooner or later most demons will simply snap and be unable to keep their appetite downSubtlety isn’t really their strong suit. We haven’t really seen a demon use tactics like seduction, or something that requires emotional manipulation beyond a very basic “mommy” thing, and even that demon just acted like an autistic emotionless shell before betraying the village. She didn’t really try very hard to “infiltrate” beyond one word
>>288220788I mean, Macht didn't feel like he snapped though. The narrative seemed to paint an image that he somehow rationally thought that killing people is worth it, even though there's no actual logical reason depicted. Even through the eyes of a demon.
>>288220776Literally, the only single time they ever challenged her on the demons was with the demon child and himmel. And guess what? She was proven to be right again. And the series has never challenged her again despite going on for over a hundred chapters. How long does this have to keep going before you admit this is a problem?
>>288220421>my issue is that Frieren as a series has demons that aren't that but has characters describe their psychology in ways that would realistically lead to thatIf you mean that they aren't master of their own biology then I can't agree. Most humans are slaves to their biology and you could realistically argue that all of them are. The whole "What does free will even mean?" debate is endless but Frieren takes things as they are rather than trying to enter that debate. Either way animalistic/bestial describes something else than the philosophical debate of what free will entails.>Frieren is just exaggerating"It's not exaggeration. It's a summarization with the autistic details left out. Everyone who isn't an autist immediately understands that, like every other living being, demons too communicate and understand Frieren's words as "The primary reason for why demons chose the human language as a means of communication rather than any other means is due to it allowing for the possibility of decepting their prey".>but the demons saying "mother is a word that makes humans not kill you" has a lot of dramatic flair as a reveal, but makes demons seem like morons or parrots rather than anything intelligent given their resources and in some waysI don't know. Intelligence has many forms. The sentence has a bit more depth than just being a dramatic flair. It shows demons ability to recognize patterns in humans and abuse it for their own gain. It shows demons incapability of understanding familial love. It shows their utter disinterest of even pondering about the reasons for why the word mother influences humans. It perfectly encapsulates the demons relationship with humanity.
>>288220858The fact that demons have a culture and the ability to properly experience sapience as opposed to being like the actual animals the series features proves Frieren wrong. The fact that demons still eat people and try to fake humanity to survive and get closer to them doesn't change that.
>>288221006But the issue is that she's never framed as or acknowledged as wrong. There's a difference between these contradictions existing in the writing and the story and characters acknowledging it. If this was meant to be part of Frieren's growth, it's doing a bad job because its not actually acknowledging anything nor is challenging her directly to confront her beliefs.
>>288220900Disinterest is such a loaded term to use when it is an active dismissal of what essentially amounts to military intelligence. It isn't a tidbit or bit of trivia and should be plainly obvious with any long-term interaction with humans (which we've seen). This sort of thing is why the question about communication comes up because it makes demons come across as beings that can listen and imitate sounds without necessarily understanding language (beyond a rudimentary grasp). And because this is the context in which Frieren's statement comes up, it is easy to understand why people might take it too literally. The fact that demons can recognize patterns in humans and abuse them for their own gain means that it should be trivial for them to recognize what a mother is from even a month around humans and pass the information through their society. The fact that they can not understand the obvious logistical benefits of doing so makes their actions seem genuinely unintelligent rather than simply removed from humanity.
My main problem with the idea of the demons being emotional mimics or whatever is that at no point in the entire series do they really try and sell thatThere’s like the one singular conversation about them pretending to mourn their war dead one time and that’s it. It feels like a predatory species of infiltrators should be doing stuff like visiting the market and making fake friends and helping old ladies cross the streets while secretly operating as a serial killer. Instead we get dead fish eyes and monotone. Why would anyone fall for this? Like with the kid demon, I can get that, nobody wants to kill children. But they don’t really seem to take this stuff seriously. The more effective tactic would be to fake assimilation and live as a parasite. Nobody is going to be tricked by some grown ass man with horns giving you the thousand yard stare lmao
>>288221152This is also further compounded by the fact that the other characters look pretty blank and monotone too. The demons ironically have the same emotional range as everyone else.
>>288206427>>Coexisted peacefully humans for 50 years without killing a single personUntrue. Gluck asked him to kill people and he killed them. He killed demons too.>>288220061She trolled Frieren entirely for the love of the game, but she kills everyone she meets because she's paranoid.
>>288221082>it should be trivial for them to recognize what a mother is from even a month around humans and pass the information through their society.I can see the argument you make in your post but I think this is where I take issues with. I don't think that the sentence implies that demons are incapable of understanding the definition of what a mother is. Rather that that description is incapable of holding any meaning for them. Even if they intellectually understand that a mother is a female who had birth they have no frame of reference as to why that should hold the meaning that humans give to it. They couldn't even start to understand it. Nor could they communicate it to others. It's like a blind person trying to explain to another blind person about how the colour red differs from the colour blue. They can't have the language to communicate because none of the words related to the discussed topic would hold any meaning to them. The military intelligence bit is already done. They figured out a trigger for a predictable response.
>>288221395They don't have to meaningfully understand the warmth and love of a mother to convey "humans spend their initial years with the being that produced them and distinguish them from their peers and treat them differently in the following ways, using the following expressions (see attached) for reasons not worth investigating". A blind person can't explain what red is to another blind person, but can say that "sighted people use the term red to refer to the following items" so if a blind person had to pretend to know what red is, they could say "oh, like a rose".
>>288221070>But the issue is that she's never framed as or acknowledged as wrong.She isn't wrong that demons are an existential threat. She is just wrong in the sense that her reductive statement doesn't perfectly reflect how demons truly operate. >If this was meant to be part of Frieren's growthUnless the demon king arc eeally goes places, Frieren is not a story about how she learns anything useful through or from demons.
>>288221395This only goes so far imoIf you realize your enemy is deathly afraid of peanut butter, it would behoove you to probably learn a few basic facts about why they fear peanut butter even if it makes no sense to you. It really feels like they are a dead end species relying on burnt out tactics. Terminal decline just like the elves. Pretty much everyone should be aware of what they are by now. The demon king seemingly being the only demon in history capable of long term thinking is very grim for them
>>288221578>>288221632Good points. Would require some changes to the current characterization of demons though. They are shown to be arrogant, care little about each other and stuck in their ways. Like one of you said they are similar to elves in the sense that they do not prioritize the survival of the species the same way humans do. As I said intelligence can come in many forms and is not equal across different areas of expertise. Nor does it always lead you to the right conclusions or even if then the individual may choose not to act on the right conclusions they do find.
>>288221852I can agree with that. The only real reason I even started bitching about demons in Frieren other than "They're kind of boring as villains" is because the Macht arc put so much focus on their inner world. I can't help but feel the narrative is trying to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to demons. Treat them as complex in order to build suspense and intrigue, but keep them ultimately straightforward for the needs of the story.
>>288221852>that they do not prioritize the survival of the species the same way humans doThey are basically sociopath wolves. Their sole societal limiter is personal power, so every demon is their own petty warlord until an alpha shows up and makes them their bitch, at which point they seem to instinctively submit. I’m pretty sure it’s mentioned at one point that prior to the demon king becoming a thing, they basically just didn’t have a social order *at all*, and were basically just in a state of anarchy, constantly at war with and eating their own species 24/7 more than anything else. They don’t have a direction now that he’s gone, beyond eating and maybe revenge among the old hands who remember the glory days(at least as a demon would qualify glory days)
Imagine how funny it would be if they do actually come across the one in a billion demon who is trying to do the good person understand others thing for real and Frieren kills them out of spite anyways because she assumes it’s a complex larp lmao
>>288219045>Monsters don't have the capacity for grief and malice, among other emotions and concepts, at all. Demons fail this critera then. Solitar obviously feels grief (she says she doesn't but that is as much of a lie as saying she would beg for her life, if defeated; indeed, she draws attention to this emotion unprompted). Macht learns guilt, if only at the end. Lugner feels malice and also feels guilty about his desire to torture Fern just for the sake of getting back at her, and not because it serves a tactical goal. >Even the shadow warriors have a sense of duty and true camaraderieShadow warriors are yet to be put into a situation where they have to choose between a comrade and a mission. None of them had yet to take the sort of risk Jung took willingly. Also, the shadow grandpa did not kill out of duty. He straight-up said that assassinatons were giving his life meaning. This is a direct parallel with demons.One of the root causes of threads like these is that demons are presented as incompatibly alien and destructive, but then they just don't do anything above and beyond evil humans would be committing if placed in similar circumstances. For example, if we replace Macht with a human archmage from a hated minority amoral enough to take a "wetwork for shelter" deal, he probably would have nuked the city right after hearing the demand to put himself into a magically enforced slave contract.
>>288219150>Beings created from mana particles have destructive impulses that prevent any logical or emotional reasoning that would lead them to the conclusion that nonviolence is the optimal behavior.Sky mountain dragons are not aggressive. Golems act depending on their programming. >You are assuming that if a creature is intelligent then they must have uninhibited cognitive ability, which is not the case with demons. The inhibition is evident.Yes, it is. However, having a behavioral inhibition triggering a murder impulse does not make someone cosmologically evil in this setting. Because again, we have shadow warriors, who just flip out from a normal person to ruthless assassin the second they see someone from their hit list. I
I wonder if the evolutionary reason for their sociopathy and lack of empathy is to make them less likely to sympathize with the prey they are trying to imitate. A tiger might not feel bad about eating a boar, but most sentients would need some way of deferring guilt. Making it virtually impossible for them to sympathize with any other species goes a long way toward making sure they are mostly focused on food
>>288223299>having a behavioral inhibition triggering a murder impulse does not make someone cosmologically evil in this settingNta but I’m unsure that this distinction truly matters. Whether they are inherently “evil” or not, some biological or magical imperative is making them act in a way totally incompatible with civilization. Their primary diet is other intelligent races. This in and of itself is a hard limiter on any concept of reconciliation. The only distinctions in how demons view humans seems to be: rats to be exterminated, cattle to be eaten, cattle to be studied before they are eaten. Those are the camps. That no demon in all recorded history seems to have broken that formula says something about them as a race yes? It genuinely seems to be the case that only the demon king was capable of understanding that demons could be more than *only* predators(and the DK was still hella evil). Not even his lieutenants seem to have gotten the message.
>>288222388The problem with this series is that it stops two steps from doing something interesting to shake up the status quo. The story doesn’t move forward because it’s already been completed from Himmel’s previous adventures.The current arc is trying to hype up Serie’s assassination, but anyone who thinks about it five seconds knows that it won’t be happening. Frieren doesn’t even care if Serie lives or dies either.
>>288223048>Solitar obviously feels grief (she says she doesn't but that is as much of a lie as saying she would beg for her life, if defeated; indeed, she draws attention to this emotion unprompted). Macht learns guilt, if only at the end. Lugner feels malice and also feels guilty about his desire to torture FernNone of these are accurate reads. Soltair was a demon to the very end. Macht never really learned guilt, he learned he's not different than other demons and also afraid of death. Gluck even highlights that Macht didn't get it in the end. lugner didnt feel guilt, he wanted to insta-kill Fern and when he failed he switched to interrogation. And getting mad is not the same as being malicious. >Shadow warriors are yet to be put into a situation where they have to choose between a comrade and a mission.That doesn't negate my point. They already have capabilities demons do not because they are human after all. >One of the root causes of threads like these is that demons are presented as incompatibly alien and destructive, but then they just don't do anything above and beyond evil humans would be committing if placed in similar circumstances.Do you think it is a coincidence that the more human the monster, the more human their methods and reasoning? Not just in this story but in general for fiction.
My main problem with this series is just how stupid everyone is. The characters, the races. Himmel is too stupid to just straight up go for it or be forward with his feelings(even elves should understand the concept of mating pairs), Frieren is too stupid to take hints or process anything, Elves in general are suicidal as a race and don’t understand or care about their looming extinction(no species evolves like this), Demons are too stupid to think past the immediate lunch, etc.
>>288223885>Whether they are inherently “evil” or not, some biological or magical imperative is making them act in a way totally incompatible with civilization. Yes.>Their primary diet is other intelligent races. This in and of itself is a hard limiter on any concept of reconciliation.If it was the case, I would agree. But it is not the case of a diet. Macht turned interlopers to gold instead of eating them even when he should have been ravenously hungry after decades of imprisonment, during which he also trained hard to develop his golden shard storm. It is clear that food in general is not a hard necessity, at least for old demons. Rather, they have an irrational murder impulse that is possible but hard to resist, may manifest itself as rationalizations for murder rather than straight-up non-physical hunger, and is compounded by the fact that their "upbringing" is already sufficient to make them sociopaths. Presense of this impulse makes coexistence impossible as they stand now, but also opens the door for a clean-cut magical fix, where you aren't mindraping a whole race, but removing something that was alien and detrimental to them. Also, if Lowe is right, Flamme's and Solitar's evolutionary explanations are bullshit. Demons were created.
>>288223299Golems are artificial constructs. Shadow warriors are humans, which as previously mentioned are not inherently evil; their behavior is a product of conditioning. You also have the logic backwards. Demons aren't evil inherently evil because they have a murder impulse, they have a murder impulse because they are inherently evil. And if you're going to hang on to the exception of sky mountain dragons, I will amend my statement thus: a being created by mana particles is subject to limited cognition based on the intent behind their creation. The point being that demons, like (most) monsters, were created with the express purpose of being evil, both in universe and out of universe. One can only speculate on the in universe explanation, but the consequence is obvious.
>>288224365>Rather, they have an irrational murder impulse that is possible but hard to resist, may manifest itself as rationalizations for murder rather than straight-up non-physical hunger, and is compounded by the fact that their "upbringing" is already sufficient to make them sociopaths.I do kind of wonder if you captured a baby demon how much you could fix simply by not forcing them into survival of the fittest at first breath I’ve seen other people broach that, but I agree with you that they obviously have a genetic killer impulse of some kind. It almost makes me wonder if doing that wouldn’t just make them worse, since they’d have a full suite of learned emotions and love to larp on the hunt, as opposed to normal demons who wing it
>>288224196>Soltair was a demon to the very end.Lol wut.>>288217751Do you really believe that acting like this while on death's door is some sort of elaborate trolling? >Macht never really learned guilt, he learned he's not different than other demons and also afraid of death.Holy autism. Not only the feeling of failing to live up to a moral ideal IS guilt, Macht was not trying to survive at any cost, even as he blamed himself for it. He's beelining for the place where Gluck should be.>Gluck even highlights that Macht didn't get it in the end. Gluck thinks Macht was his true friend in the end. He values the memory of their friendship so much that he's willing to go to the gallows rather than say "Macht tricked me". And you know why? Because Gluck is smart enough to see that Macht, who no longer could even lift a hand "threatened" him only to protect him (both to make Gluck step away and to give him that very excuse to avoid execution that Gluckl refuses to use). That's what he meant by saying that Macht died gloriously, like a true scoundrel.>lugner didnt feel guilt, he wanted to insta-kill Fern and when he failed he switched to interrogation.Fern thought he missed her vitals intentionally. There is no reason not to trust her. He lied about missing by accident, and "switched to interrogation" exactly because he thought that hurting her for no rational reason is unbefitting of him.
>>288224373>limited cognition based on the intent behind their creation. The point being that demons, like (most) monsters, were created with the express purpose of being evil, both in universe and out of universe. One can only speculate on the in universe explanation, but the consequence is obvious.To be honest, this is sort of inherently tragic. I’m one of the more liberal people here in my interpretation of the argument, granted, but it does seem to be the case that the demons we’ve seen who start to adapt beyond *just* their evil base instincts and become “characters” all tend to have some sort of mental block preventing them from following that line.
>>288224824I agree.
>>288224750>Do you really believe that acting like this while on death's door is some sort of elaborate trolling?I think she genuinely doesn't feel positive or negative towards her imminent death. At best she's actually amused it is finally happening. That is not sorrow. >Not only the feeling of failing to live up to a moral ideal IS guiltHis thoughts are cold and logical. Not filled with grief but a detached realization that he wasn't that different from the demons he looked down on. Returning to Gluck is sentimentality, not guilt. >Fern thought he missed her vitals intentionally.You are correct. However that only shows arrogance which is not a feeling stated to be alien to demons. Pride is a big thing for them.
Bump
>>288206427It's that Frieren is a massive racist and while you might say "le epik based racism xD", the point is that the author unknowlingly wrote a comically racist society that is likely not going to reach any conclusion, despite the humans being positioned as somewhat antagonistic to the elves.
The reality is that they're written like shit and the author didn't know what they were doing.
bump
