For the people who are tired of being told they are abusing their dogs due to baseless claims.For dogs who are allowed off-leash or working towards being off-leash because no dog has true freedom like running around with their own will.Only webms of training dogs are allowed.
Dogs shouldn't be kept off-leash, dogs don't deserve "freedom" because they are animals that we tolerate in a human society. They don't have the intelligence and understanding needed to make good decisions, thus they do not deserve "freedom" in our society.Just tie a long leash to a tree, away from people, on private property and your dog will never be able to tell the difference between that and being "free".If you let your dog be off-leash, you're a selfish retard, a danger to your dog and to the rest of society. Reconsider your stupid views.
>>4783282based and true. no dog is ever 100% trained. they are not robots. even police dogs trained like roman soldiers, and even service dogs that have never known evil, bite their handlers and disobey - and dogs are apex predators. off leash dogs are disrespectful and dangerous to other peoples property. what if someone was walking their rabbit or cat? that's their pet on a leash, controlled, it doesn't deserve to die, and no matter how hard you hit the shock collar or how reinforced you thought your training was, dogs can and do decide that today, your pain isnt enough, and your treats arent enough, for them not to eat that tasty animal. the dog is not dangerous to people, they are still a good dog, but it is just their nature and you will never, ever fully suppress it, and the laws in your area might treat your dog more like an inanimate object and mandate they're destroyed as reparations.
>>4783307Seeing eye dogs are trained using the inclusion of positive punishment as all dogs should be. The best method has won time and time again and proven itself to be non-abusive as guide dogs are one of the most docile and stable dogs available. People rely on them to obey with their lives.From the seeing eye dog manual:>Use a snapping or popping motion with the leash while the leash is still slack.>If the puppy doesnt stop trying to pull… strengthen each correction.They also encourage the use of headcollars and chain training collars.https://www.scribd.com/document/291083588/Puppy-Raising-Manual
>>4783307>you shouldn't let your dog be happy b-because there's a 1 in 20,000 chance something (entirely preventable) happensJust watch your dogs’ surroundings and call them off before that and you'll be fine 99.99% of the time. Also what dog do you have? Eitheir none or some geriatric senior dog whose mind is broken to think the world only exists with a 3-foot tether. Sad. If you don't train your dog to be off-leash you're doing it wrong and don't deserve one.
>>4783496>scribd dot companyOff leash fag tier research. >>4783497Famous words spoken before an off leash mutt wrecked or was wrecked by another animal.What part of your dog might not respond to a shock collar on max dont you understand? This happens every time with off leash dogs. It’s against the law because it keeps happening and dog owners keep saying “skill issue. MY dog is a robot without free will and is perfectly controlled”.
>>4783497your dog will ignore you one day no matter how good your treats were or how harsh your punishmentmost dogs who die on public or others property were escaped, or purposefully let off leash. then you read the archaic dog shooting law from the frontier days and you cry because your only option is to go home and accept that you were an idiot, or kill the man who shot your dog for being within 2 miles of his chicken coop.
>>4784273>>4784323>animal murder fantasyNo dog it is then.
>>4784331Either that or they think all dog owners live in redneck ghettos and have some poorly trained feral mutt.
>If you let your dog off leash, one of these days all of your training will fail because this happens almost daily, dog owners running behind their released pets screaming and holding shock collar remotes before their pet gets hit by a car or vanishes and turns up dead because of some ornery farmer or psychopath with a gun collection that he thought needed to taste blood (also see: cops)>Even dogs that have daily professional training fail to obey their owners, and that definitely isn't your dog>U R FANTASIZING ABOUT MURDERING MY PET! REDNECK GHETTO! POORLY TRAINED! "I am different, my dog is different, you must hate dogs"Famous last words before honk honk screech yipe "but i used a heckin prong e-collar and i had high value treats and and..."Keep your off leash games to secure areas. No dog is ever 100% obedient. You're playing games with your pets life based on the poor assumption that they comprehend the difference between staying near you because of a tether and staying near you because they are afraid of an electric shock.
>>4784344Off leash people are the same people who think their magic training will stop a pitbull from performing its genetically predetermined function and killing the nearest dog or toddler without warning.
>ignroing previous posts to fuel your maniaWeird how they never show their dogs.
>>4784373Follow leash laws. Letting dogs off leash outside of designated areas is objectively dangerous.Even hunting hounds that are state sanctioned for off leash use on huntable lands get lost/killed all the time, even with the best possible training. I doubt your sheepdog wandering around suburbs is such a dog. You're having lots of fun because you have an easy breed to train but disaster is a when, not an if. All dogs disobey, or get caught up in something you didn't expect.
I've totally lost my social life between my job, and my hobby being only working with my dogs for ~5hrs a day walking and training 7 days a week. To get better at training I've begun leash and obedience training other people's dogs for free. Hopefully one day I can study enough, and get enough experience I can start charging and become a part time dog trainer. This was my first client a chowchow mix with lead reactivity, fairly bad anxiety, food aggression, and dominance problems (probably from his anxiety being unchecked for so long). He's doing way way better now thanks to the owners working with him every day I'm not there. Lesson learned here is don't let teen girls get dogs that cannot physically handle that are also inherently stubborn, and aggressive.
>>4784557After just a week he's barely checking people when he used to constantly nip, and defiantly jump on people. Funny enough he only started jumping on people because he's too excited this week. Hopefully that'll be easy to fix now that he's significantly more mentally well.
>>4784559Excellent progress anon! BF Skinner’s literature is a great resource.
>>4784574I'll definitely check it out thank you. I just bought a business phone so now I can print business cards, and make a website without doxing myself so hopefully I can get another client in the near future. Pic unrelated just my dogs.
>>4784574Which book of Skinner's would you recommend as a starting point to his concepts most useful for dog training?
>>4784578The Behavior of Organisms: An Experimental Analysis (1938)The thing about Skinner, is a lot of his works have been misinterpreted over the years by people who are trying to sell their own services so go into it with a clear mind and don’t be persuaded by any blogs or websites claiming to know what his works are about. Adapt your understanding first.also, these are college and university level readings, so if you’re not really prepared for all the jargon and technical terms, then maybe look elsewhere. The man Skinner himself was an academic and professional, his works are of the same quality.
>>4784585>1938, BF (((skinner)))A visionary of his day, today he appears to be a surly ignoramus who did not appreciate the complexity of the mind. His procedures often ruined animals. The associated fallout created issues we now know are caused by the method that he considered caused by character flaws.
>>4784592i personally would not listen to a man who said the brain didn't need to be understood, just coerced. a mind is internally rational but not necessarily externally rational in accordance with our limited view of the world.reminder, the only aversive skinner actually used was negative reinforcement and the removal of it being positive reinforcement. this is the single most destructive training method you can apply to a dog and is almost guaranteed to cause apathy and anxiety. even directly punishing them is less of a big deal.
Awe, look at Zak George’s unpaid little intern drones trying to derail. Positive Punishment isn't abuse.
>>4784597Skinner never recommended positive punishment actually, and he only used painful negative reinforcement under laboratory conditions.he considered it abusive and ineffective in the long term.
>>4784597says who, some scrawny sophomore who needed prongs to train an aussie and a fat beagle, the two easiest breeds to own next to obese golden retrievers?
>>4784600Reading comprehension issue.>>4784601Rude and incorrect.
>>4784609>Reading comprehension issueYou read skinner's lifes work againBesides being wrong on principle (species specific neuroscience has way more to teach us about training than a 90 year old attempt at reverse engineering the vertebrate reward system, and human neurological studies have informed ad campaigns and social media design - behaviorism is a flawed "science" just like human "psychology" and a saliva sample can tell us more than guesswork and unintentional anthropomorphization) , he didn't actually ever recommend positive punishment be used.You're so brain broken by /dog/ running a BTFO train on your prong-yanking "dog daddy" videos that you missed why skinner actually sucks. He sucks because he's wrong on principle and the only pain he believed worked makes punishment look preferable.
>>4784615Lol, you're a brainless.My claim>Positive punishment isn't abuse Your response>some tldr cope seethe essay about a dead psychologist. My new claim>1 + 1= 2
>>4784624Positive punishment is abuse if it causes pain. If you’re a literal autist who neither reads nor speaks between the lines because the autistic are less than human and belong in camps, then you probably would think you were being told that gentle leash tugs and verbal corrections are abuse. But actual humans without developmental delays would believe you were talking about an actual punishment, which is causing harm and saying that it is not abusive. Hence clever apes aka autists eventually go insane and shoot up the nearest school. If you would defend causing pain, then that’s what us souled beings call psychopathy.
>>4784628>B-but dog daddy popped a prong collarThese are not all positive punishment techniques.
>>4784635Autist confirmedWhen will you report to the socialization camp?
>>4784615dogs need to be slapped
>>4784641Food for thought. If one thing is obsessively on your mind and you keep repeating it; it may be a projection.
>>4784600>IneffectiveLook I hate giving my dog juice as much as anyone but when he was about a year old and it came time for him to learn to hunt he still had total puppy brain and didn’t give a shit about anything but chasing birds. One beep. One buzz. One shock. Hasn’t been an issue since. It’s widely practiced and effective. So I can say with a certainty that assertion is wrong. Float all the nerd stat propaganda out you want. It fucking works. Plenty of people may misuse punishment but the right pressure, at the right time, fucking works.
>>4784600Look, if you want to train your dog using a limited scope of stimuli and reinforcers be my guest. I'm not arguing with someone who can ONLY train sit and down.
>>4784658Skinner never advocated for using punishment after the fact to deter a behavior. That’s because he also saw it as negative reinforcement at the same time and a source of unintended consequences. The man trained pigeons to guide bombs. You should trust him on this one thing at least because it’s also the view of neuroscientists. a lot of dogs bite people and painful punishment is believed to be a contributing factor because the stars align and an old, unnoticed stimuli returned.
>>4784663the old “works fast doesnt mean works well” and “dogs are half instinct and not all of them are suited to the made up hobbyjob you want them to do” problems…
>>4784663There's nothing wrong with training your dog at the threshold. You should. Thresholds are dynamic. This whole “try to prevent bad behaviors instead of managing them” is one big cope that is unrealistic. Left the door open? Whoops your dog is gone never to be seen again.Dogs pull you on the leash? Whoops you dropped the leash and the dog is gone never to be seen again.Left food on the counter? Whoops your dog ate it and will now die within a day and will never be seen again.Prepare your dog for the real world.
>>4784674Weird how so many people manage to do this without "giving their dog juice"Imagine having a dog so insane and/or stupid that you need to zap them over leash pulling or not running away. Does the dog even like you if it would run away in the middle of a walk?Such is the life of mentally healthy animals instead of neurotic "drive"-ridden hobbyjob dogs.
>>4784691Link some clips of real-world obedience achieved with positive reinforcement only. It's really that simple. Criteria:>dog doesn't rush through door>highly reinforcing stimuli on the other side of the door (squeaky voice, small animal)>no “juice” aka positive reinforcement only
>>4784691>image of a dog wearing a martingale collarBe careful, that's punishable by firing squad according to Reddit trainers.
>>4784601CorrectOP has hot takes for owning a self training cuckold and a toadline
>>4784696>other anon never followed upGee wonders.
I'm getting a miniature poodle in the fall and have been reading a lot about training. I feel like I'll have my hands full, being my first dog and all, but I read that poodles really enjoy having a job. So I was wondering if maybe I could train it a bit for some service dog things, I mean it's a miniature so I can't do a lot of service dog things, but maybe I could train it to find my phone or pick up things for my elderly dad if he drops them or tasks like that? I'd obviously focus on obedience training first, but as the dog gets better at that would it be silly to try to train for task oriented things?
>>4784557>Lesson learned here is don't let teen girls get dogs that cannot physically handle that are also inherently stubborn, and aggressive.I'm sure there are lots of exceptions, but every family I've known that got a dog for their kids..... it ended up being the wife's dog in the end. They get the dog when they're in late middle school, then high school comes along and they get busier and have more friends/lose some interest in the dog, then they go to college or get a job. It's an awful idea to get a teenager a pet. It's a better idea for the PARENTS to get a pet while the kids are young enough to enjoy them, but then when they go off to school or get married or whatever the empty nester parents now have a doggo
>>4785139calm down bro, it hasn't even been a daythis isn't a fast board like /g/, which I know you use frequently
https://youtube.com/shorts/dWuHg5myaLI?si=bwx5izLH6cxx8EjF
Why are dog owners obsessed with this off leash shit and then why do they wonder whats with all the found german shepherds in shelters>noooo the training was supposed to work i used a shock collar nooooo why is my dog running awayIts because you leave your door open for no reason and repeatedly zap your dogCatchads just dont leave doors open saving untold hours and several hundred dollars
>>4785165Cats escape regardless if you left the door open for 1 second or 10 minutes.
>>4785165When i was a kid my neighbor installed one of those "electric fences" where the dog get zapped if they cross through the fence. well this golden saw an animal and chased after it through the fence, got zapped, stopped, and then tried to get back in to go back to the owner but kept getting zapped. He got zapped so many times he ran off. I was a kid then and spent like three hours trying to find the dog. Eventually founding him hiding under a tree all dirty and crying.
>>4785170My cats are loyal because i dont fucking electrocute them meanwhile you’re sweating bullets because you dropped your genetically cucked sheepdogs leash in a churches backyard and constantly fantasize about your pets running away from you instead of asking why they would>they havent been shocked enough thats whyTypical doggoplasmosis victim zozzle. Cats that do go on an adventure come back of their own volition btw. Would your heckin pupper?
>>4785176I don't use shock collars and cats return to their own homes because it's a source of food/reinforcement. Dogs are smarter and understand that I am the source of food/reinforcement therefore always come back to me. Both my bloodhound and border collie return to me at the end of our day.
>>4785176What type of argument is this? Appeal to schizophrenia? Catfag bingo>dog torture >toxoplasmosis>outdoor cat>console war instigationCats are based you are not.
>>4785182>my beagle/toadline mix escaped twice and my aussie is afraid to leave because i verbally threaten him with neutering and no more “special belly rubs” dailyZozzlePeak doggoplasmosis
Some cats are honorary aryans and welcome into my high-trust society.
>>4785189>>4785188What cat do you have?
>>4785189Very true There are good candidates
>>4784663After the fact? No. I would agree that’s retarded. Correction during the act? Very effective. Snake proofing isn’t fun but it’s necessary in a lot of instances. >Get snake>Put it somewhere dog will easily find it>Give dog the juice when he investigatesRattlesnake bites dramatically decrease. Unpleasant but important.
