There's no good reason why intelligent animals shouldn't be considered non human persons and have the same rights protecting them as humans.
what qualifies as an "intelligent animal"
>>4873732You don't need to have it explained to you how animals are intelligent, I think you're being disingenuous. But for starters, animals that are clearly self aware and have great problem solving skills, like parrots, crows and ravens, dolphins and whales, elephants, who are actually capable of creating art for the fun of it
>>4873732Anything that’s capable of tool usage.
schizo thread
not only schizo thread but bait thread
what could have been....
>>4873737Define tool usage. Some sea urchins have been known to use shells as hats to protect themselves from the sun. Is that tool usage? If not, why not?
if it cant talk english it'll die under my boot and there's nothing you or it can do about it. if it was so clever why didn't it kill me yet? I'd be giving this 'amazing being' the finger right now and it either cant comprehend it (because its stupid) or it can and its crying because it cant do anything about it.
>>4873796It's not bait, I meant what I said
>>4873731We can't have any expectation of any other animals to follow laws in the same way we can expect an adult human who we can communicate with to follow explained laws. Children also have less rights than adults, and also there is no real expectation they can follow the law till their teens.Also, rights are not based on intelligence
>>4873731They should protect me first
>>4873731do pigs count, or do you eat bacon and not think about pigs
>>4873731I don't believe all humans pass the mirror test or are sentient and I don't think animals are actually aware they are going to die one day. Knowing you are mortal and will die one day is the only true proof of sentience. Talking, using tools, doing things, etc. is not proof of sentience.
>>4873880then you are truly rarted
>>4873737This. For too long ants have been deprived of their human rights.
>>4873731>non human persons>human>personYou are a fucking retard OP. Person means an individual human. Using both human and person is redundant. "Persons" is an archaic version of the word "people" used only in English legal literature due to the holdover of legal precedents where the word was still in the public lexicon. You are basically saying you want animals to be recognised as non-humans which is what we do already. There is even special legal protections for animals already in place to protect their welfare. Law and ethical systems which most other countries do not even have.
>>4874303>You are a fucking retard OP. Person means an individual human.Yeah, I'm saying we need to expand the definition to include animals that are comparably intelligent to humans. Like Cockatoos and other parrots. Are you slow?
>>4874306>Yeah, I'm saying we need to expand the definition to include animals that are comparably intelligent to humans. Like Cockatoos and other parrots. Are you slow?If you cannot even correctly provide an expanded definition and just call them non-human I am afraid to say you are retarded anon. You did not even bring up parrots specifically in your post you just said "intelligent animals" in a nebulous manner.
where ar etheir marvels? where are their great advancements? their tools? they have none. and if they cannot show us that or anything like it, they are still little more than animals. only being slightly above a cockroach
>>4874303frogs fucking suck you retard
>>4874345Fuck you frogs are awesome
>>4874134>Giving ants human rightsWe barely get along as a society now. Can you imagine the chaos if ants were allowed to vote? Elections would implode because they'd all vote for their selective queen.
>>4874347toads are way better
>>4874345>>4874347>>4874370Frogs and toads are friends, not enemies.
>>4874372this is true, the book the toad and the frog clearly states this
>>4873731They can enjoy rights when they pay taxes, freeloading cunts
>>4874380We as the most superior life forms on the planet have a moral obligation to be kind to lower animals. The same way we are obligated to be good towards people with mental disabilities.
>>4874402>The same way we are obligated to be good towards people with mental disabilitiesThat is a social rule that only people who don't want to portray a bad image to others and women apply. There is no societal obligation to be good to people with mental disabilities (leeches).>>4874306>include animals that are comparably intelligent to humans. Like Cockatoos and other parrotsSince when are those comparably intelligent to humans? As much as you're a fucking retard, you're still smarter than the smarter parrot.
>>4874424>Since when are those comparably intelligent to humans?Do you know anything about cockatoos?
>>4874402As someone who has had a career in working with people with mental disabilities, I can tell you that even the most regressed man is eons more intelligent than an animal. They are not even comparable.>>4874424I am just going to assume you have never interacted with families or communities that support people with mental disabilities. If you did you would not be so coldly technocratic or utilitarian to write them off as leeches.
>>4874450>I can tell you that even the most regressed man is eons more intelligent than an animal.Parrots are clear evidence against this. All you have to do is watch some youtube videos of them
>>4874453I will do you one better: I have first hand experience with African Greys due to family members. They still do not even compare to a man with a mental disability. Even a non-verbal man has a level of sophistication that a parrot that can talk cannot match. If you want to advocate for parrots being socially intelligent enough to be given some level of attention sure. But as soon as you start to try and equate to the mentally disabled and why they are protected in society you have lost any ground you have tried to build.
>>4874458Ok, how are they not comparable to mentally disabled people? What do they have that parrots lack?
>>4874325>You did not even bring up parrots specifically in your post you just said "intelligent animals" in a nebulous manner.I clearly used them as a foremost example seeing as how I used a picture of one as the OP
>>4874461That is not how this works. You have to show how they are comparable because you made the claim to begin with. You need to demonstrate that parrots are capable of some level of sapience, something which humans with mental disabilities still posses with rare exceptions such as severe brain developmental defects which borderline on vegetative states anyway.
>>4874469>. You have to show how they are comparable because you made the claim to begin withThey form very strong attachments to people, they can learn the context of words and use them themselves in ways that seem applicable, they are great at problem solving and can do math. How are they not comparable to a severely retarded person?
>>4874470>They form very strong attachments to people, they can learn the context of words and use them themselves in ways that seem applicable, they are great at problem solving and can do math. How are they not comparable to a severely retarded person?Because all of that is applicable to dogs too yet they are still regarded as not being sapient. Just because parrots posses social compatibility does not make them sapient.
>>4874473dogs can't use words themselves and as far as I know, they cannot do math or figure shit out like how to unlock cages and open things
>>4874473Also, sorry because I thought of this after I hit post, but how do you define sapience? If it's about not being able to proficiently use a human language, were prehistoric men not sapient because they didn't have languages?
>>4874474actually they can do all of that, even use wordsbut not coherent combinations of them>>4874477the man line is drawn with abstract language
>>4874470>>4874473>>4874474When I see an African Grey use the word goodnight to indicate that he wants to go to sleep it is quite remarkable. Or when he pushes dings a metal bowl for more food. But it does not compare to a person with down syndrome seeing a dragonfly at a pond who then smiles amusement when it lands on his hand.>>4874474>>4874477It is the property of being sapient, the property of possessing or being able to possess wisdom. Wisdom being able to considered abstract thoughts or concepts. There is entire field of care pertaining to theory of mind which is about how the mentally disabled process abstract concepts day to day. Something which has never been proven for parrots or other intelligent animals.>If it's about not being able to proficiently use a human languageI have already said it does not have to have a verbal requirement. Parrots are intelligent creatures. If you want to give them legal protections fine. But they are no where near the level of humans. I am now going to go do some shitposts now because it is clear you are just hellbent on humanising your favourite animal.
>>4874487>But it does not compare to a person with down syndrome seeing a dragonfly at a pond who then smiles amusement when it lands on his hand.You've never seen a parrot be amused or show wonder at something?>It is the property of being sapient, the property of possessing or being able to possess wisdomDude, I just want to know what "wisdom" a severely retarded person has ever shown you. I want to make clear, severely retarded. Like nonverbally retarded, I think we would both agree they are humans and deserve respect yes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-V549kpdMQHere is a parrot clearly showing wonder at something new to him
>>4874506my toad does this now where are his stone tools.
>>4874512Toads and frogs can't use tools of any kind, some birds can. There's no equivalency.
>>4874520toads show wonder, yet they have no tools
>>4874427what country do you live in?
>>4874449retard>>4874427>something or other economyNothing to do with the economy and everything to do with being a resource waste, whether in a small tribe, or in a big society. They will not (or should not) have children, and they bring very little contribution and take a lot in our current society. It's not only they bring little, but that regardless of how much work goes into them and their education, they barely become a regular human being and will always depend on others.>>4874450>am just going to assume you have never interacted with families or communities that support people with mental disabilitiesI have, luckily I do not share any blood, but some parts of my family have a downie and some other mentally retarded woman, and I have interacted with more too. Experience is exactly why I say what I say, they are just eternal children. They take and give nothing back.>inb4 something about me being emotionally deadPerhaps, but still not wrong. City dwellers under 75 IQ should not be alive.
>>4874934>Experience is exactly why I say what I say, they are just eternal children. They take and give nothing back.If you view communities and societies from a purely materialistic world view you are either an autist who by demographic are the most likely to rely heavily on gibs programs behind minorities or you are a technocrat who sees societies like a spreadsheet. There have always been cost sinks in human society like old fucks or the physicaly malformed. These cost sinks traditionaly do not heavily impact social support structures, but we now live in a globalised world order where some foreign family with no connection or contribution to a community can turn up and absorb surplus resources without giving any back. The disabled can be managed, but due to external sources they can no longer be sustained easily. The answer is not to hell with the vulnerable because you would be throwing baby out with the bathwater. You say to hell with metropolisation.
>>4873736this. humans have human rights because they're needed for our survival in a modern society and this compels people to comply and obey authority so our rights will be granted. non human animals dont have human needs so granting them our rights makes no sense. also with rights you gain duties, cant expect apes or parrots to behave like a good citizen.the only law other animals truly follow is reproduce no matter what, kill or be killed.
>>4874953>look at these other people they're worse!Take a wild guess as to which meat grinder I would send any subsidy abuser including those you listed.>old fucksThey were young once and most of them have earned their rest.>physicaly malformedThe difference is that these people can more often than not use their brains, and are able to peform desk jobs or similar where their impairments do not significantly degrade performance and can be happy without bringing other people down with them.Retards are akin to toadlines. An abomination that should not exist.
>>4875013>The difference is that these people can more often than not use their brains, and are able to peform desk jobs or similar where their impairments do not significantly degrade performance and can be happy without bringing other people down with them.Yeah, guess what you can do with people with mental dissabilities but functional bodies? Menial or labour tasks.>But some are so mentally stunted they cant comprehend tasks!And there are people so physically malformed that they cannot adequately communicate or contribute knowledge. Either side of the coin can go in either extreme and more often than not mental dissabilities can contribute just as physical dissabilities can. If you are going to rev up a new Aktion T4 program you might as well push in the cripples too. Or better yet stop playing favorites and remove all forms of malformation in a domestic population entirely and acually perform proper active eugenitics.
They aren't us. Stop being a moral busybody. It looks bad on you
>>4875030>Menial or labour tasks. Please make list of these tasks you speak of that retards can perform without an issue that could not be outperformed by far by a 95 IQ person or simply automated.>And there are people so physically malformed that they cannot adequately communicate or contribute knowledgeYes vegetables should not be kept alive either, it's an insult to their existence.> Or better yet stop playing favorites and remove all forms of malformation in a domestic population entirely and acually perform proper active eugeniticsWhat makes you think I wouldn't if it was left up to meHonestly it feels like either you completely agree with me and are just slowly trying to make a list of all the genetic waste we would dispose of, or we are so far apart in morals and opinions that what you find outrageous I find agreeable.
>>4875049I assure you the only ground we share is the acknowledgement that eugenics divorced from moral or ethical considerations is a societal net positive. There is not doubt in that fact, disputing it is stupid. But I do not believe in active solutions. It always leads to mass murder and I do not think it is an unreasonable response for most men of sane mind to recoil at the prospect. Even from a materialist perspective you would cause issues societally with mental deterioration of the executioners who will then go on to be deviants or a bias in selecting the abhorrent and sociopathic as they best thrive in such occupations. I believe in passive solutions. T4 was a thing to begin with because extermination programs in germany and on the eastern front was fucking up the morale of german troops so other methods were sought out. Even then these techniques which were applied to camps had an effect on guards and personel to the point that being assigned to a camp was seen as punishment or pulling the short straw. Leisure facilities were essential in this regard.This is all stupid. If you are concerned about net positives or losses in social resources go for those who do not share your culture or heritage instead. They are responsible for the bulk of societal problems and are far easier to manage.
>>4875064Eugenecists are destructive hubris laden freaks. No matter what you can not make eugenics objective. It is always opinion based. The great irony is that removing eugenicists is a great act of eugenics. Down with the self important psychopath. An opinion everyone can agree on except for the victim.
>>4874402If by being kind you mean eat the ones that taste good and keep others as pets then sure
>>4873731Sapient and human are two different things you whinging fucknut
>>4875064>This is all stupid. If you are concerned about net positives or losses in social resources go for those who do not share your culture or heritage instead. They are responsible for the bulk of societal problems and are far easier to manage.Like the other anon pointed out it is simply my opinion and neither you nor I can influence any of these policies or end up causing genocide. If you want to ask me for my real solution it would be to run mandatory genetic tests on all babies and if any anomaly (multiple cromosomes, known mutations that cause other syndromes) is detected force an abortion by law if there is no significant danger to the pregnant woman. It's not like the world isn't already dystopian enough, however this would never happen because our governments want to lower the IQ average not increase it, only place I could see this happening in is China.
>>4873731I would like to see the cope claiming koko the gorilla wasn't on the level of a retarded human. She absolutely had abstract thought
>>4875453>koko the gorillaHE FELL FOR IT KEK
>OK so what rights do you want>[Incomprehensible chirping]
>>4873737I would expand on this to say "using tools to make tools." I don't count a birds picking up a stick to push a cracker out of a box "tool usage"
>>4873731>>4873734Meds
>>4877501>2 people remember sovl>medsget lost pharmaberg
>>4877502>t. /pol/ack troonschizo
>>4877503rent free
>>4877379>push a cracker out of a boxthis is what landlords are doing in america
