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File: HtbmxLy.png (1.38 MB, 2048x1879)
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WHAT IS SPECULATIVE EVOLUTION?
Speculative evolution is the exploration and imagining of how life might evolve in the future or could have evolved in alternate pasts. It's a multimedia sci-fi genre that harnesses scientific principles to create detailed and plausible hypothetical creatures, ecosystems, and evolutionary histories.

RESOURCES:
https://speculativeevolution.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Tutorial
>One-stop shop for relevant background information for starting a project

http://planetfuraha.blogspot.com/
>Fantastic blog covering all sorts of spec evo topics in-depth

https://specevo.jcink.net/
>The Speculative Evolution forums, full of resources and ongoing projects


RECOMMENDED PROJECTS:
https://pastebin.com/zhBbaNTB
>Link to a PDF of Wayne Barlowe’s “Expedition”, a seminal work of speculative evolution full of incredible paintings and illustrations


https://youtu.be/Rbi8Jgx1CNE
>”The Future is Wild”, a CGI documentary following the evolution of life on Earth in the far future

https://pastebin.com/esdFrSEZ
>Dougal Dixon, arguably the father of speculative evolution. These are links to PDF’s of his books “After Man”, “The New Dinosaurs”, and “Man After Man”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egzZv8tqT_k&list=PL6xPxnYMQpquNuaEffJzjGjMsr6VktCYl&ab_channel=Biblaridion

https://sites.google.com/site/worldofserina/

https://sunriseonilion.wordpress.com/

http://www.cmkosemen.com/snaiad_web/snduterus.html

https://www.deviantart.com/sanrou/gallery/56844005/nau

http://www.planetfuraha.nl/

https://multituberculateearth.wordpress.com/

https://sites.google.com/view/lokiworldofrats/home

https://specevo.jcink.net/index.php?showtopic=4578&st=15

https://www.deviantart.com/bicyclefrog

https://hardeshur.blogspot.com/p/main-page.html

https://rylmadolisland.blogspot.com/p/main-page.html?zx=bba41f9d602b6b9a
>>
>>4894711
these look like the worms that crawl up in a milf's asshole to breed her in my fetish story
>>
Offf to a great start I see.
>>
>>4895293
Can you post it
>>
>>4894711
Saw this pop up in my feed the other day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYTvdEwlkk8&t=10s
Seems really fucking stupid, from the very idea to the designs
>>
>>4894711
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egzZv8tqT_k&list=PL6xPxnYMQpquNuaEffJzjGjMsr6VktCYl&ab_channel=Biblaridion [Embed]
just finished watching this whole series
pretty kino
kinda annoyed that both lineages of land animals have 4 sets of walking limbs and 6 total eyes as an ancestral trait, though.

does genetically engineering animals to live on human space colonies count as spec evo
because I've got some cool animal ideas but I'm thinking of them in context of my oneill cylinder fantasy world wherein they'd probably have been engineered.
>>
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Sapient Mixocete just dropped!
>>
>>4895535
This! All he needed to do was knock off a pair of eyes or add some to one group.
>>
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here's an idea
Carnivorous Sauropods
>>
>>4895661
The only way it could work would be as an opportunistic omnivore scavenger
>>
>>4895661
>>4895713
In theory it could work on an island environment. If Cold-Blooded Goats could evolve (Myotragus)... Neck should be shorter though and skull larger as a predator however.
>>
we have a discord right, and its dead
should it be shilled here more
>>
>>4895752
Usually I would /pol/post but the new spam rule is overburdensome. I'm more of an /an/poster tbqh.
>>
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This is my imaginary island country of Regalia, located in the northwestern Atlantic.

What kind of endemic wildlife would be feasible to exist there? The nearest landmass is Newfoundland in Canada.
>>
>>4895422
seems like he smoked the kaimere ganja
>>
>>4895752
yeah it's 100% dead last post was in like march
>>
>>4895931
based upon its location just southeast of newfoundland, it'd probably have mostly similar mammal fauna, but more limited.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mammals_of_Newfoundland
unique species might include minuscule subspecies of black bear and deer.
>>
>>4895604
The fucks a mixocete?
captcha: S O Y M A N
>>
I'll just leave this here:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/scientists-observed-evidence-evolution-real-120000860.html
>>
>>4895962
QRD?
>>
>>4896167
I'm just saying the designs for those tyrannosauroids remidn me of kaimere's designs in their head ornamentation
>>
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>>4896049
Well it's a descendant of Whales from the Early Oligocene if they hybridised at that date 32 mya on another world, giving them a mixture of features from Odontocetes and Mysticetes. This one is from a lineage that became amphibious.
>>
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https://youtu.be/q455668UgWc?si=Ck1Gox5uLnz-UR_q


put on your baseball kaps, because this shit's a wild ride.
>>
>>4896448
I'm gonna put my thinking kap on instead
>>
>saw a vid where scientist prefer humanity not going the tech/singularity route and let us evolve naturally. fuck bots that may put us in a matrix
>>
>>4896447
I can barely see anything
>>
>>4896520
Sorry I have a shitty camera.
>>
>>4896574
Apology accepted, don't let it happen again.
>>
>>4896580
Going to charge up the ol' tablet. Has a good camera.
>>
>>4896586
Good, can't wait to see what you got.
>>
>>4896588
Soon now...
>>
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>>4896588
How's this?
>>
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>>4896597
>>
>>4896597
>>4896599
Why's it so humanoid? Where'd the back legs come from?
>>
>>4896600
Came from several Atavisms quite early on. No land predators on the planet's since only else is Brown Algae, Krill, Fish and Squid so became quite advantageous.
>>
>>4896601
Do you have land fish and land squid and land krill?
>>
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>>4896599
It probably shouldn't have a tail fluke or such an expandable throat if it's so adapted to land.
Also nitpick but most cetaceans only have 4 fingers in their fins, not 5.
>>
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>>4896603
What forced them onto land facultatively was actually giant predatory Fish. The land became somewhat of a retreat. There is Sand Hoppers and Land Kelp however of which take the niche of Insects and Land Plants respectively.
>>
>>4896605
Delphinids have 5 phalanges, the Mixocetes retained 10 on the front and 8 on the back since they come from earlier Oligocene stock.
>>
>>4896607
>forced them onto land facultatively was actually giant predatory Fish
I find this unlikely, airbreathers just have far more potential to get bigger than water breathers. Megalodon was probably pushing the upper limit of what size animals with gills can reach.
>>
>>4896610
The difference was Mixocetes were toothless with baleen not long after the hybridisation event of their early Oligocene Ancestors, limiting their future niches. I could see Xiphactinus-like descendants of Ray-Finned Fish popping up.
>>
>>4896612
But also eating small oily Fish and Squid as well as Krill as echolocators oddly enough, the Mixocetes could power their yuge brains.
>>
>>4896612
>The difference was Mixocetes were toothless with baleen not long after the hybridisation event of their early Oligocene Ancestors, limiting their future niches
I could easily see them adapt their baleen into quills that function like teeth.
>>
>>4896605
It's truly barely adapted to land, only going there to retreat and collect stuff, they even burned flotsam to keep warm in winter in their pre-civilisation state.
>>
>>4896615
Some Macropredatory Mixocetes do, just not this one. One could argue the filter-feeders became safer on land with all those big Teleosts and Macropredatory Mixocetes. Like somewhere between a Shorebird and a Flamingo with traits of Otter and Beaver in there.
>>
Can you have a insect a bit like eevee where what it can metamorphize into multiple different things?
Instead of two sets of DNA where one dies and the other is activated, it has three sets, two potential things that it could turn into, but which one it does turn into, is influenced by the environment. So it could have one form being of a butterfly sort, and another form being of a beetle sort.
>>
>>4896621
Would be quite cumbersome, but sexual dimorphism could be a thing with this.
>>
>>4896448
The giant crocodile turtle is probably one of the most plausible spec designs i've seen in a while since it's just a giant snapper, bear turtle is also cool
>>
>>4896621
epigenetics can go a long ass way if need be towards generating different morphologies
most plausible might be an aquatic nymph form insect that either morphs into an aquatic adult or a terrestrial adult depending on environmental factors?
>>
https://youtu.be/Be_W5rPSXKI?si=ui1SiLmYSdB-mpxP
some type of coastal parrot adapting to durophagy, eating various crustaceans, perhaps molluscs. Bonus: using their legs and beaks to pull them along coral and/or seaweed/kelp instead of swimming. Mite b kul.
>>
>>4896621
I think ants do this? as in some become a queen or worker or something. not exactly sure if that's true or how it works though
>>
>>4895931
To determine that, you would have to answer the following questions:
>how much of Regalia was covered by ice during the ice age?
>if Regalia was completely covered up by ice, then has Regalia had a land connection to North America since the ice melted?
>if not, then when did Regalia last have a land connection to another landmass, or has it always been isolated?
>>
>>4898221
other important question is how long ago did human got in the island
Because if the Europeans were the first ones he could justify even pygmy mammoths
>>
>>4895293
We need spec takes on hentai tentacle monsters/parasites fr!
>>
>>4896621
I guess something like locusts having differences depending on how the environment and abundance of food is. Its called phase polyphenism
>>
Alright, here we go
>holocene extinction occurs
>most birds and rodents, and some monkeys, felines and canines survive
>birds end up dominating due to generally superior eyesight and moderate sense of smell, versatile beak for scavenging, generally higher average intelligence, social behavior
>also, they have lower body weight due to pneumatic bones and thus require less food to survive, have generalist diets, more efficient respiration than mammals, and can fly and leave environments easily
>birds end up diversifying rapidly while mammals are relegated to rodents, monkeys and the odd small carnivore
>millions of years later
>birds on land evolve analogs of elephant birds, terror birds, oviraptors, utahraptors, neimengosaurus and paraxenisaurus, before figuring out to extend their tails by making the fused bone large
>in the sea gigantic penguins fill the niches left by whales, dolphins and seals, and gigantic storks and flamingos abandon wings and become plesiosaur analogs
>the mesozoic dinosaur dominance never ended, it merely took a short break during the late cenozoic
>>
>>4898514
to be fair, synapsids and sauropsids have sort of been alternating dominance, there's nothing inherent to either that would suggest they naturally belong on top

also might be the issue that rodents like rats are just about the most effective predators of small birds imaginable
>>
>>4895293
Are you that politics guy that got caught looking at hentai?
>>
>>4898534
... you realize how little that narrows it down?
>>
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anyone know of whoever artist cooked this amphibian Champ, and that squid Ningen?
>>
>>4898514
>birds end up dominating due to generally superior eyesight and moderate sense of smell, versatile beak for scavenging, generally higher average intelligence, social behavior
Why didn't this lead to them dominating after the K-Pg?
>>
>>4899504
because many more mammal lineages survived the Kpg extinction then bird lineages
>>
>>4899614
Even if thats true why would it matter? many more lineages of dicynodonts survived the permian yet it's not them who eventually dominated.
>>
>>4899617
because it means that are more variation and niches that can be explored right way enabling them to diversify and take over quicker

>many more lineages of dicynodonts survived the permian yet it's not them who eventually dominated.
No, only three lineages of dicynodonts survived the great dying less than the number of Archosauromorphs lineages that survived the great dying and the number of avian lineages that survived the K-pg extinction
>>
>>4899614
Issue I guess is trying to think of an extinction event that would leave significantly more avians alive than mammals
especially given the "bat" factor, its exceedingly difficult to dream up any scenario that would hardly kill bird lineages while simultaneously wiping out most if not all bats

I'm also not quite sold on birds winning out an evolutionary race against rodents in an extinction level event, the latter are far more adaptive due to lower generational time
>>
New Kaimere video
https://youtu.be/g9Xbvp_FBF8
>>
>>4899954
stop posting this tranny project

also it's so strange that I almost always happen to check this thread soon after you shill it here, I only check it like twice a week maybe. I wonder why it always syncs up like this.

but yeah not a fan, as always.
>>
>>4900069
Lemme guess... it's "tranny" cuz one of the mermaid homunculi are spliced with a fish that can change sex, like how ya freaks proclaimed Serina had that too just cuz of the tripodal deer fish having the same biological quirk?
Or mayhaps it was just a brief passing mention of a human character being one? "oooh NOOO, the bare minimum example of a sample of the human condition included, oh the horror!" stfu no one cares for you, die alone and in the dark, forgotten and unseen, unloved, anon.
>>
>>4900113
Alien Biospheres also had it
Really none of that ever struck me as "tranny"
But rather because spec-evo tends to try and use things that are less common in our world but still interesting
>>
>>4900113
https://youtu.be/5SIo4sq1Kc8?si=pFebzQ9crut-faAy
the entire project is an excuse to write fanfiction (multiple books) about his particular tranny butch lesbian black waifus. Disingenuous retard.
>>
Serina went to shit the second they added sentient species
>>
>>4900291
and unfortunately once you add them you sort of have to focus on them because most of your audience is now fixated on them
>>
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Seems like europa is being discussed again. What sort of life can exist here? Most life will probably stick to the ocean floor since that's where the energy is but also the pressure is so high, even tardigrades from earth wouldn't survive. Does that write off the possibility of large multicellular life?
>>
>>4900290
Waow based!
>>
>>4900291
>sapient*
>>
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I'm building a honeybee seed world, it's got no vertebrates. Three arachnids, one oceanic crustacean and mainly Apis melifera and (eight species of) plants.
I've got one spec evo video, and I'm working on the second quite feverishly.
https://youtu.be/0_HwP-ePjdU
>>
>>4900747
just bee urself
>>
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What would be a fun way for giant flightless birds to lose heat

One idea is thermoregulation through the beak. This works on some species like the big-beaked predators but there's herbivores too which have much smaller heads and beaks, where this wouldnt be an option.

Another would be a wide variety of vasculated crests on the beak and head that function kind of like the ears of an elephant.

Another would be to make them bald or at least very sparsely feathered above certain sizes.

Another would be to have a series of wattles and all sorts of fleshy bits dangling down from their head and neck, however if these birds would fight I imagine they would get all ripped up.

Another would be that they evolve some rudimentary sweat glands. However I'm not sure how necessary sweating is. Despite it having a huge advantage in dumping heat it also means that they would need to drink an ungodly amount of water. Also, elephants despite also being enormous and warm-blooded, hardly sweat at all.

Last thing I can come up with is they coat their legs in moisture from their mouth or something, the way kangaroos lick their forearms to cool down.
>>
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>>4900778
I'm also considering the shapes of the bill. For something that big, it can't dance around on one foot to kick things, and so it has no other way to capture and kill prey besides the beak. As such the feet have no talons and are purely concerned with weight distribution and locomotion, while the beak has to be a highly versatile tool thats extremely specialized. Yet I've mostly just used the general terror bird or eagle-type beak with a single hook at the end, which were all used in conjunction with talons on the feet. Imagining it taking down something the size of an elephant, I don't know if that kind of a beak would be enough. Should there be some serration involved? Maybe multiple tomia? Or should the beak instead be shorter and more macaw-like, a pincer shape used to exert more force.
>>
>>4900784
pseudoteeth might work
>>
>>4900778
I think ostriches have stretches of bare skin under their wings that they can beat their wings over to cool their core a bit, that might work on a larger scale. You could also have them use their neck and the muscles that controls their ability to fluff feathers so they could raise a bunch of sparse feathers arranged in like rings or something to cool off their neck, maybe.
>Another would be to have a series of wattles and all sorts of fleshy bits dangling down from their head and neck, however if these birds would fight I imagine they would get all ripped up.
Or it could serve as thick, fleshy armor like a badger or bear has. Might work.

>>4900784
Shorter crushing beak makes more sense to me. Could also develop spurs on their legs so that they can us it to hold an animal down after making a first bite; that could let them use their weight to their advantage without dealing with fast kicks.
>>
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>>4899102
fr tho, did some legendary drawfag just... randomly popped in and cooked such kino shit in that old spec thread on /x/ b4 fading into the abyss??
>>
>>4900747
Nice work anon! Don't forget that most of the bees are solitary
>>
>>4901364
Thank you, the purple lineage has already reached a solitary niche, so it's gonna blow up soon.
>>
>>4901316
would you the beakussy?
>>
>>4901474
>>
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>>4900747
>That one clam world project with dog sized bees
>>
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Anyone knows what will happen to an ecosystem if the insects are the size of dogs?
>>
>>4902942
what kind of insect, thats pretty important
>>
>>4902942
Carboniferous 2.0: Hymenoptera Boogaloo
>>
>>4902961
Every insect.
From bees to ants to bugs to flies to maggots.
What i want to know is can dog-sized insects still participate on decomposition process?
>>
>>4903262
>bees, butterflies, and other general pollinators
no more fruit bats or hummingbirds, giant flowers get bigger
>ants, termites, and other colony insect
theres a problem now, where they basically strip the land clean around the nest for underground farms
>flies
not much changes really, i guess birds would get fucked up or get more food
>beetles and other detrivores
probably going to be rarer because theyre going to strip the land clean, at a certain point theyll stop eating shit and eat normal things
>predatory insects
very dangerous, predatory beetles will fuck up a lot; parasitic wasps, cazadores;
>>
>>4903262
A dog sized bee would not be able to fly to begin with unless it's wings changed completely
>>
>>4903265
>not much changes really, i guess birds would get fucked up or get more food
>falcons and other agile predatory birds getting in an arms race with giant flies to become agile enough to catch them
>birds and giant flies darting and weaving through forests at break neck speeds and making turns that would normally obliterate something of similar size
Sounds kino actually
>>
>>4901316
still wondering, btw...
>>
>>4898542
I mean he is famous for being caught and lying about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWg6z5ODZBY
Also he was just a /lit/fag sorry.
>>
Has anyone ever tried some kino shit like pondering the ecology of Hell/Inferno and/or Heaven/Paradiso? Think that could be an interesting gem
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=el97A8PMqbQ
>>
>>4904458
Midwit core channel
>>
>>4904376
Wayne barlowe did hell
>>
>>4904547
Shame the demons are often literally just humans, sure i'd be fine if they're still humanoid, but literally got human/simian features, especially the face
>>
>>4904376
>Has anyone ever tried some kino shit like pondering the ecology of Hell
This was my original project when I was like 15 years old
Nothing remains of that except shitty pencil drawings and terrible writing
>>
>>4903265
giant ants would probably adapt to live in far smaller colonies, like dozens or hundreds individuals at most.
>>
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>>
Anyone know any good spec evo games?
>>
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>>4896448
>>
>>4906223
There aren't any besides spore, is there?
>>
>>4896621
Epigenetics are a hell of a drug
I'm fairly sure Ants do this

Maybe you could work that into a non-colony arthropod
>>
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Parasitic Isopod that replaces your dick but is otherwise fully functional and benign. It even replicates sensation and becomes completely enslaved to the host's nervous system.

It is also quite large

would you, /an/?
>>
>>4906298
>>>/d/
>>
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>>4894711
I think a pantherine with high visual acuity would absolutely dominate as an apex predator and eventually have a longer rein than that of the sabertooth cats.

Also, is the fact that the Ndagong Tiger was able to drive a sabertooth cat and a giant hyena species to extinction and mesopredator status respectively mean that the pantherines are overall superior as predators to machairodonts?
>>
>>4906849
it means that in that specific instance it was better. It really could have gone a different way had the populations had only a few changes, like a behavioral quirk or something.
>>
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>>4901316
>>4899102
you guys remember me?
>>
>>4906223
Adapt if its finished already
Thrive if it ever comes out
>>
>>4906916
We do, whom are thou, oh great and mysterious drawfag?
>>
>>4907007
Thrive has really nice roots, but I highly doubt it's going anywhere, sadly.
>>
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Bird-bugs
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>>4906906
The Ndagong Tiger grew in size specifically to compete against the hyena add sabertooth cats, that's pretty impressive.
>>
>>4895293
You should ask for your brain to be preserved post-mortem for studying.
>>
>>4906849
>the Ngandong Tiger was able to drive a sabertooth and a giant hyena to extinction
Citation fucking needed, otherwise, this is nothing more than a personal headcanon
>>
>>4907888
Again, source or gtfo.
>>
>>4907898
>>4907899

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283496418_Niche_overlap_and_competition_potential_among_tigers_Panthera_tigris_sabertoothed_cats_Homotherium_ultimum_Hemimachairodus_zwierzyckii_and_Merriam's_Dog_Megacyon_merriami_in_the_Pleistocene_of_Java

>On Java during the Pleistocene, tigers of more than 300 kg occurred, but these are restricted to a single Late Pleistocene faunal unit, while Early and Middle Pleistocene tigers possessed body masses comparable to those of historic Javanese and extant Sumatran tigers. However, former studies have excluded carnivores from the Middle Pleistocene site of Sangiran where tigers co-occurred with machairodonts (Hemimachairodus zwierzyckii and Homotherium ultimum) and the large Merriam's Dog (Megacyon merriami). The aim of this study is to test if large tiger individuals occurred already in Early and/or Middle Pleistocene sites in Java and evaluate competition potential among carnivores from Sangiran and its consequences.

>We calculated body masses and prey mass spectrum for tigers and potential competitors using linear regressions. Niche overlap was then estimated based on the prey mass spectrum after which niche-overlaps were used as indicators for competition potentials. Reconstructed body mass for H. ultimum, H. zwierzyckii, M. merriami are154 kg (comparable to Homotherium from Untermassfeld), 130 kg and 52 kg, respectively. The niche overlap be-tween tigers and Merriam's Dog is highest (100%) while it is comparatively low (60%) between tigers and H. ultimum.

>Tigers have not increased body mass before Ngandong faunal level, but competitors like Merriam's Dog seem to have decreased body mass to avoid competition with tigers. The sabertoothed cats on the other hand seem to have been unable to adapt to competition and went extinct.
>>
>>4894711
Can you reupload the Dougal Dixon books?
I'd really like to see those.
Im pretty sure libgen doesnt exist anymore or something.
>>
>>4907842
seeing shit like this just makes me mad. This is clearly an example of some soulless ESL retard who grinds fundies 24/7 but has absolutely no imagination. "what if x... but really y?" is the absolute worst trope in spec evo. This is awful.
>>
>>4908317
Go to sivatherium
>>
Tell me about your worlds reefs
>>
would there be any reasonable pathway towards penguins re-evolving claws at the end of their flippers to assist with rock climbing for nesting purpose?
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>>4909727
Given that the hoatzin manage to reevolve wing-claws I think would just need a mutation to reactivate the win-claws delevopment pathway and it being an usefull enough trait to to be selected
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>>4909727
Their wings already have that... material, can't remember what it is making their wings rigid, they could easily have it either create a keratinized sheath on the end or have some of their scale-like feathers just get even harder.
Also I kept trying to look it up and even broke down and asked an AI bot but I couldn't find any references to it. Anyone here know what it is? I can't tell if it's ossified tendons or what
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>>4909747
the evolutionary feedback here would be, if not too unlikely, for the penguins to nest on rocky shores near cliffs, and being able to get higher up the cliffs for nesting purpose having positive fitness

though I suppose that having non-streamlined fins would perhaps be too much of a negative and it's far-fetched to go to retractable claws immediately

>>4909826
can't find it either, but does sound interesting
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>>4908970
is that a website?
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>>4910554
yes
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJ2e-4d_UvI&ab_channel=SpeculativeWildlifeResearchCenter
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>>4912046
My bad
>>
How do you guys find antarctic chronicles?
https://sites.google.com/view/antarctic-chronicles
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>>4912492
I just had a lot of fun looking through davis' hotdogs' google maps info based on looking for pictures of grasses and greens in antarctica, it's pretty dang funny. Would share but 4chan keeps marking it as spam.
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>>4912587
I have no idea what you're talking about.
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>>4912492
I really don't like the "intelligent but not really" crows he adds in. I always hates that birds aren't good enough for speccers and they always have to throw in a mammal for "variety" but I feel as though they were a particularly bad way to do it. Not to mention most of the animals they brought with them didn't have any lasting impact.
Also the not sapient part really irks me. He wants all the advantages of a sapient species but doesn't want to deal with anything else so he makes eusocial crows that still do animal husbandry and agriculture and make tools. Speccers relationship with sapient animals is such a let down, they are incredibly reluctant to use them for some reason. I don't really know why, it's not like it'd be hard to get rid of them knowing the expected trajectory of human civilization.
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>>4912820
truly a shame few writers take full advantage of the opportunities to write something alien that corvids offer for sapience

here you'd have a sapient species that, unlike humans, cannot easily win from large predators
that alone already changes up the dynamic of their stone age immensely

flight also allows much greater mobility, lower body size means drastically less food is required, so the mechanics of agriculture again would be radically different, perhaps to the point that true sedentary agriculture never develops
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>>4912834
>here you'd have a sapient species that, unlike humans, cannot easily win from large predators
I think you underestimate how big of an advantage sapience is. While they might not be able to bonk predators with big rocks, they can make make traps to kill them.
>lower body size means drastically less food is required
Per individual, but all that means is you can support more individuals. I don't see agriculture being substantially different for sapient birds than humans.
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>>4912837
sure but that's an increased level of complexity needed, and even then, simple traps often require significant physical effort in order for it to be effective, anything the size of a corvid can't make a deadfall trap that reliably takes out a wolf or a bear for example, nor can they excavate pits large enough to hinder larger animals without extraordinary effort

And you can't always rely on traps, the advantage humans had was that a group of 10 or so humans with simple wooden spears are a sufficient threat no predator wants to risk it, which means that humans can if surprised still drive them off

As for supporting more individuals, there's limits to how large stone age groups can get due to lack of any established organization, even if the corvids would have significantly higher social capacity than humans, you'd still end up with groups reaching that max social carrying capacity, while requiring drastically less food

combine this with it being drastically harder to defend pastures, domestication of large animals being more difficult due to size differences, I could very well see rather than true agriculture, Amazon tribe style forest management being the default, with groups migrating between carefully managed gardens of fruit bearing plants, fish ponds etc. which don't require constant attention and can be left to recover without oversight

and this sort of semi-nomadic lifestyle being the basis of cultural development rather than true sedentary agriculture
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>>4912847
wouldnt they just do slash and burn
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>>4912847
>anything the size of a corvid can't make a deadfall trap
Why not?
>or can they excavate pits large enough to hinder larger animals
Why not?
>without extraordinary effort
As we are all aware, sapient social animals are completely and utterly, hopelessly incapable of this.
>advantage humans had was that a group of 10 or so humans with simple wooden spears are a sufficient threat no predator wants to risk it
This isn't true, look up the tsavo maneaters. Even up to the gunpowder age it was common for humans to be eaten by predators.
> there's limits to how large stone age groups can get due to lack of any established organization
This isn't true either, the incas managed a level of organization comparable to any medieval state despite being in the stone age.
>domestication of large animals being more difficult due to size differences
Just domesticate smaller animals.
>>4912850
Birds already do this lol
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>>4912850
that's a possibility, but I figure that treetop dwellings would be a rather elegant and natural means of living for sapient corvids
setting up traps that deter predators near those is also significantly easier

naturally there would be a lot of different types of behavior, and it's very likely some of them would practice slash and burn, but clearing burned terrain is not always that simplistic
slash and burn can also be used as a precursor to managed gardens rather than true agriculture, I believe the New Guinea people practiced this
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>>4912851
both the making of the deadfall and the pits large enough to deter large predators require significant physical effort that would be extremely difficult for animals that size, not to mention animals lacking arms to help lift and dig
while not impossible, the effort required would make it impractical

In effect for them to create a deadfall against a bear would be about equivalent to humans making a deadfall suitable for a diplodocus, and doing so without using your hands

Also why individual humans getting picked off by predators happened, no predators on earth consider or have considered, at any point, homo sapiens to be a reliable prey animal
it's also, paradoxically perhaps, easier to pick off farmers than picking of hunter/gatherers who would be in tighter groups and more likely to carry weaponry

As for the Inca, I should have said stone age hunter/gatherer, the development of the Andean cultures is a long process comparable to agricultural societies elsewhere on the planet just without significant use of metal tools
>>
should note that I'm not against sapient birds practicing true agriculture, it's a strategy we know works after all

But rather than I consider it a bit of a waste for spec-evo projects to not at least explore a bit how the different physiology of birds could potentially lead to different civilization origins and survival strategies

Speculative cultural evolution in addition to speculative biological evolution so to speak
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>>4912856
>both the making of the deadfall and the pits large enough to deter large predators require significant physical effort that would be extremely difficult for animals that size
Just work together.
>>4912856
>not to mention animals lacking arms to help lift and dig
>while not impossible, the effort required would make it impractical
Just use their feet and beak.
>>4912856
>In effect for them to create a deadfall against a bear
How about use a different kind of trap for bears such as a pit trap? Hell I've never even heard of humans using deadfall traps on bears. I don't know why you're so set in thinking only in terms of deadfall traps.
>Also why individual humans getting picked off by predators happened, no predators on earth consider or have considered, at any point, homo sapiens to be a reliable prey animal
Tell me how I know you didn't look up the tsavo maneaters
>I should have said stone age hunter/gatherer
With that qualifier I don't see how the point is relevant.
>>4912859
>I consider it a bit of a waste for spec-evo projects to not at least explore a bit how the different physiology of birds could potentially lead to different civilization origins and survival strategies
Wholeheartedly agree, I just don't buy any of the reasons you give for why birds would have a substantially different technological trajectory than humans.
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>>4912852
but wouldnt they just live in a spot that is relatively unassailable and harvest the area around, like a beehive, essentially a fortress or castle
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>>4912863
Digging is more than just moving dirt around though, it requires working through plant roots, removing rocks, moving earth up and away from the pit and doing it all fast enough to be effective
bird feet are generally (there's some exception, but those are not usually among the more intelligent clades) rather poorly suited for any form of digging, especially in rougher soil

>tsavo maneaters
Those were an exceptional circumstance and not indicative of larger species-wide behavior for lions, not to mention the circumstances do not in any way reflect hunter/gatherer tribes
I'm talking more general behaviors here
Furthermore, if they had attacked a group of workers armed with spears they would have in all likelyhood died or at least been sufficiently wounded death was inevitable

>>4912863
I still do believe the combination of drastically lower body weight, inability to use weapons that deter large predators and flight would make certain survival strategies that remained more niche in humans significantly more likely to work for them
The example here being semi-nomadic environmental management rather than true sedentary behavior
This doesn't "have" to be how it goes, I'm not claiming that, I'm simply giving arguments as to why the strategy "might" work better for them than for humans
And even so, there's 2 locations on earth where successful cultures used such strategies, Amazon rainforest and New Guinea
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>>4912864
That's actually what I'm suggesting they would do, have fortified locations, treetops being an example of such a location, from which they harvest the surrounding area
The notes in addition to this I make is that it could make sense for rather than true agriculture have managed highly productive environments that allow for easy foraging, and that they would be semi-nomadic, moving between fortified positions to allow a managed environment time to recover to allow for future exploiting
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>>4912867
>Digging is more than just moving dirt around though, it requires working through plant roots, removing rocks, moving earth up and away from the pit and doing it all fast enough to be effective
Why couldn't birds do this?
>bird feet are generally (there's some exception, but those are not usually among the more intelligent clades) rather poorly suited for any form of digging
Okay, I figured this went without saying for sapient animals but evidently not. I meant with tools, not their bare feet.
>Those were an exceptional circumstance and not indicative of larger species-wide behavior for lions
Actually it was for the time period for africans to be eaten by lions. We only think the tsavo maneaters exceptional because they targeted a european project.
>Furthermore, if they had attacked a group of workers armed with spears
spears>guns is a rare take
>>4912867
>inability to use weapons that deter large predators
Are they incapable or would they just have to use different weapons to humans?
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>>4912899
>spears>guns is a rare take
that was not the takaway from this, the workers were unarmed which was the case because they were workers in an industrial society, tribal societies would have each member be armed to some degree and proficient with it's use
obviously if all of the workers had rifles that would have worked out a lot better

that said there are some edge cases where a spear is more useful, if you're in a circumstance where aiming might be difficult and you can't guarantee a shot to immediately disable the animal, a spear genuinely might work better since the animal would have to impale itself on the point

>I meant with tools, not their bare feet.
And we are talking primitive tools here, stone, wood, bone, getting through tree roots with that is difficult even for a human, if you've ever had to dig anywhere near roots you'd know even with a spade, a tool far above the abilities of a primitive society to construct, roots can be a bitch
Birds simply don't have the leverage and physical strength to use tools to properly get through roots in any appreciable timeframe
Not to mention that removing rocks that are trivial for a human to move would require major effort for them
Remember, you can only get your tools so sharp and durable without access to at least bronze metallurgy

And again I never said it was impossible, but I'm merely saying that to dig a pit trap for a large animal is such a major undertaking that for their primitive societies it would not be worth it, and generally most means of securing the ground level against large predators and large herbivores are impractical for them
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>>4912899
>or would they just have to use different weapons to humans
I've actually thought this through and just about the only portable weapon I could see a stone-age corvid use that could incapacitate a wolf, would be grooved knitting-needle like carved pieces of hardwood, inlaid possibly with obsidian and coated in poison dart frog poison or something equally fast acting, used by precariously divebombing the creature and either directly injecting it or perhaps if they are weighted carefully dropping it

Nothing that requires physical strength to kill seemed plausible, nor any held ranged weaponry, since they have neither arms nor the lung capacity for blowing weapons, nor could they carry and load tension or torsion weapon other than weighted darts dropped straight down

The issue with these types of weapons is twofold,
one it requires consistent access to a source of fast-acting neurotoxin, both to the source and means of preservation
and two, that these weapons are not necessarily effective as deterrent nor can they be considered self-defense weapons since using them against an attacking creature is most likely going to result in the death of at least one, and likely multiple tribe members
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>>4912492
thanks for sharing
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>>4906916
Fr tho, got a name, neat spec drawfag?
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>>4912972
depending on how big they are, that wouldnt really matter, dropping a rock on something is pretty effortless that you wouldnt need poison, im not a physicist and i dont know the exact calculations, but im pretty sure if you drop a 5lb rock from 30ft high, youre going to break some bones, and i think youre underestimating darts, because you have to consider that youre flying and theres a bunch of you, you can wear something down and wait or just harass it until it dies. the rules of engagement changes entirely because as a bird you live in 3D rather 2.5D
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>>4914696
while it's true a 5lbs rock in theory could do a lot of damage, in practice there's a couple of issues

first issue of course being that corvids aren't capable of flying with a 5lbs rock, even the common raven, the largest corvid, only had a body weight of about 4lbs, crows of all flavors being significantly lighter

secondly there's the issue of aiming, 30ft is a long way for a rock to fall, and wolves are unlikely to stand still for that entire period, aiming made even more difficult by the awkwardness of the flight with a large rock

third is that they'll only be capable of carrying a single rock each, so each missed drop requires them to go back to the designated rock storage area (or dart), this also lowers the response time significantly, since they can't carry a large enough rock with them at all times, and without said rocks they are defenseless
this contrasts with humans in that a human with a handaxe and the knowledge to use it, is already a sufficiently dangerous threat wolves are unlikely to go for them

fourth of course being that they need sufficient clearage above the head of the wolf to drop said rock, which is not always going to be an option if they are currently attacking your burgeoning agricultural site or camp or just in general, exist anywhere near a forest

being a bird who lives in 3D is a major advantage, as long as you do not have a location to defend, which if you are trying to engage in traditional agriculture, you do have

as for underestimating darts, do remember we are talking about a stone-age society, bronzeworking would change up the dynamic significantly for how effective darts can be, but that would still be a fairly long way off at this point (and being birds, mining would be significantly more difficult, but that's another discussion)
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Now dropped rocks do have their use, a communal carrying system where multiple corvids (I'm assuming the stone age corvids are the size of a common raven, things get easier if they are a bit larger) use a clever net or suspension to carry heavier stones or darts around, then use those for hunting
Grazing animals are more likely to stand still long enough for the falling object to strike them, and in this case it's the corvids who set the rules of engagement
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>>4912972
>I've actually thought this through and just about the only portable weapon I could see a stone-age corvid use that could incapacitate a wolf, would be grooved knitting-needle like carved pieces of hardwood, inlaid possibly with obsidian and coated in poison dart frog poison or something equally fast acting, used by precariously divebombing the creature and either directly injecting it or perhaps if they are weighted carefully dropping it
You've not thought very hard then, turns out the terminal velocity of an arrow is only a little bit less than one shot from a bow so all a bird would need to do is drop an arrow from high up to get a pretty dangerous weapon.
I can tell you I certainly wouldn't want a flock of birds trying to turn me into a pin cushion.
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>>4914761
except you're forgetting a massive factor when it comes to dropping an arrow as opposed to shooting it
it does not start out at it's maximum velocity, it's initial drop will be slow, erratic and completely unpredictable because you're dropping an arrow down

The entire point of an arrow is that it's launched at an initial high speed so it's trajectory is stabilized
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>>4914773
And?
A problem easily solved by quantity.
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>>4914776
Or just by the bird diving with it to keep it stable while it builds up speed.
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>>4914776
the quantity problem is not easily solved because they'll be unable to carry multiple arrows with them in flight, arrows are fairly unwieldy for an animal the size of a raven after all, nor are they an easy common carry item, part of why I settled on poisoned darts is that a raven could reasonably carry multiple with them without impeding them
A weapon you don't have available simply isn't a good weapon

Then there's also the time lag issue, even under perfect conditions, a typical stone age arrow will need a 200ft drop just to achieve the same impact velocity of a bow-launched one at 50ft, and that again, is without accounting for air resistance and turbulence on part of the dropped arrow

even as
>>4914778
suggests, for the bird to dive with it, this would not change this equation
we're talking at minimum more than 3 seconds of just falling and needing a sufficiently open space to allow for a drop like this to be done, if the bird in question dives with it, it needs to allow for a safe drop for said bird,
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>>4914783
>the quantity problem is not easily solved because they'll be unable to carry multiple arrows with them in flight
Oh my god, I mean multiple birds not 1 bird carrying a bunch of arrows. Do I really have to spell out everything for you?
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>>4914784
which means that they'll have to fly back to wherever the arrows are stored and that to respond to the attack of a single predator you need an immediate response from over a dozen birds just to be capable of having a chance of threatening them
you simply don't seem to understand that requiring elaborate coordinated responses to a single threat is a major issue
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>>4914788
>you simply don't seem to understand that requiring elaborate coordinated responses to a single threat is a major issue
No it isn't! Thats how humans have always done it! Rambo is not a true story, multiple people responding to threats in a coordinated fashion is the norm, not some unreasonable pipe dream. Like come on man are you for real?
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>>4914773
>The entire point of an arrow is that it's launched at an initial high speed so it's trajectory is stabilized
thats not how that works, like at all. the fletching and the spine control the trajectory, launching an improper arrow from a traditional bow destabilizes it greatly because of the archers paradox. the only reason why they switched from darts to bows was because you can carry more arrows and you can launch them farther
https://youtu.be/EfgMfSZiQSU?si=pheZcrUEBEfHS5wv
as you can see here the dart stabilize themselves in flight
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>>4914790
There's a whole spectrum between going Rambo and requiring an elaborate coordinated response
3 humans who each quickly grab a spear or handaxe they were carrying along are a sufficiently dangerous threat that predators will avoid it, this is not coordinated or elaborate, just 3 people who grab the weapon they are currently carrying
Hell 3 people (talking stone age people in good condition and practiced) who each grab a random rock from the ground already are from the moment they pick up a rock, an existential threat to a wolf

And that was why I considered poisoned darts to be the most effective weapon, because it's a weapon they can carry around, and immediately without need for planning can present a threat with to a wolf
a coordinated attack such as what you're suggesting could work but by that point, the wolf has already made it's opportunistic kill, and has run off
Same thing with being able to drive off predators while traveling, again the unwieldy nature of arrows for a raven sized creature would make it unlikely for them to carry such items with them nor be capable of using them in a timely fashion to respond to sudden threats

>>4914806
We're not talking a launched arrow here nor a weighted dart though
at 200ft up in the air, turbulence against a 20g arrow will make it's exact trajectory a lot more difficult to predict
There's also the factor that thrown darts only really work for humans because we're physically adapted to throwing objects
I'll admit I was wrong about the speed factor for the arrow though
Question is, would a stone age society be capable of creating arrows that are fletched properly that they can be dropped from that height in windy conditions and consistently hit their target
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>>4914835
>We're not talking a launched arrow here nor a weighted dart though
that doesnt matter
>at 200ft up in the air, turbulence against a 20g arrow will make it's exact trajectory a lot more difficult to predict
nigga, no, you dont need 200ft, 30ft is enough because gravity takes care of it
>There's also the factor that thrown darts only really work for humans because we're physically adapted to throwing objects
nigga, no, once it reaches the apex of its arc, gravity is taking over and is doing on the all work, which is just the mass of the dart and the force of gravity, the only reason why its moving forward is because of being thrown
>Question is, would a stone age society be capable of creating arrows that are fletched properly that they can be dropped from that height in windy conditions and consistently hit their target
its really not that hard considering them being birds, they would understand the purpose of airfoils, so they would reach their conclusions to drag much quicker. and thats also saying the birds are retarded since they wouldnt understand the concept of DESCENDING/DIVE BOMBING in the air, things that they doing naturally already. and stone age doesnt mean anything since that just means theyre not smelting, technically the aztecs or the inca never left the stone age(no metals worth smelting) and only used stone tools, but they have pretty advance civilizations and techniques that are quite marvelous
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>>4914848
>30ft is enough because gravity takes care of it
Nigga, at 30ft up even in vacuum it only impacts at 13m/s which is less than a third of what even a stone age hunting bow would hit at
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>>4914848
>and stone age doesnt mean anything since that just means theyre not smelting
Also I was, if you go back in the conversation, quite obviously talking about pre-agricultural tribal societies since the discussion evolved from one about how and if agriculture would evolve in those societies
oh and the idea that the Inca and Aztec didn't smelt metals is kind of funny, since you know, they had more than a little bit of gold
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>>4914778
haven't read the whole discussion, but couldn't a sapient bird people develop spears/arrows that they dive down with to build up speed and release when they have the right trajectory to still make it a projectile and still being out of harm's way?
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>>4914879
If birds were actually as smart as popsci rats say they would already be doing this and orcas would be using harpoons
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>>4914879
they're definitely weapons they could use, and with larger birds, something the size of a larger eagle and with carrying capacity approximating them, could develop spears that could hurt something the size of a wolf severely

the issue is sort of that we were working with corvids, and even the common raven which has the highest carrying capacity only maxes out at about 200g and comfortable carry at 140g which severely limits the effectiveness of weapons they can carry against larger animals

corvids also aren't particularly known for high speed diving and course the lower the weight of the weapon that's being carried, the higher the velocity needs to be, and with it, the higher up the dive needs to start

there's also the factor of practicality, while divebombing weapons can work offensively, if you need a significant dive for it do hurt something, it can't be properly used defensively

All in all though I do think spears have their use, and especially larger darts carried by multiple corvids sharing the load, but I am doubtful that they could defend burgeoning farms with it

which goes back to my original argument that cultured corvids might favor alternative forms of cultivation over agriculture that do not require constant defense
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The basic issue with the entire above conversation is that one person is only thinking in terms of problems rather than solutions.
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>>4915561
Don't quite understand that reasoning, plenty of solutions were offered, just more the reasoning that sometimes the solution is not to make something work, but rather to do something else
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>>4894711
What is this, a "What if Polychaeta worms filled every niche?" speculation?
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>>4900290
never saw that vid and t be honest his humans vid are the weakest and i despise his noble savage infatuation
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what if bunnies evolved to be predators
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>>4894711
someone should revamp (pun unintended) the FVZA, basically, it's a literally more kino version of SCP by a long shot with never really deviating/derailing into more fantastic nonsense with the specimens they study. With updated science too like giving the vampires incisors & the hosts teeth to shed to make room for the new set of chompers & not having the vampire bat be the cause, those fuckers live too far away to be the culprit.
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>>4916720
Are you going to do anything with the premise or is this post it?
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>>4916720
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what extinction event would wipe out mammals but not harm birds
maybe disease?
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>>4920503
Impossible. Birds are fragile. Anything that wipes out mammals would wipe out birds and any food supply.
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>>4920503
There has never been a mass extinction event due to disease and anyone who suggests it as a mechanism for mass extinctions in their spec has shown themselves to be a midwit.
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>>4920503
drought, birds and reptiles do not urinate, they pass uric acid instead so theyll spend less water pissing, which also means they can survive on ketosis or whatever so they can burn fats and proteins over carbs which requires water
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>>4920503
You don't need a single extinsion event, just a series of minor events that either affect mammals slightly harder or that birds are capable of recovering better each time
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>>4920503
Mass rabies event
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it's up
https://youtu.be/jXqc_zKqrbs?si=ljlCBy1MU6HT03K9
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>>4922667
I like turtles
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Merry Holidays, anons.
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>>4922667
Visuals got worse
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Whats series?
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>>4896610
agreed, land would provide more rich oxygen environment (in theory)
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>>4923792
Kappa
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>>4923801
isnt that literally the opposite of reality
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Idk why nobody up there mentioned the possibility of sapient corvids killing/driving off large animals by dropping fire on them.
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>>4923813
No, Oxygen availability in water maxes out at 8 mg/L whereas air has 250 mg/L. Air provides about 30 times the amount of oxygen as water.
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>>4924501
it's definitely an option, probably most likely through the use of fire pots since carrying an open flame under you while flying is probably a bit too precarious
issue with fire as a defensive weapon when dropped is that, for obvious reasons, it's not the best choice to use in a location you actually care about if it goes up in flames and that an animal who's fur is on fire is not immediately disabled and in it's panic is liable to kill at least a couple of your own, if it's much larger than you

for fire defense I think what might suit corvids more is rather than dropping fire to directly injure animals, to use burning branches held in their beaks for intimidation purpose

A coordinated intimidation display by the whole tribe, taking advantage of their 3 dimensional movement, could easily give the illusion of a much larger fire, especially at night or in otherwise darker locations

In general, intimidation tactics would suit sapient corvids well, current corvids already use intimidation and mobbing tactics so it's reasonable the sapient version would have more advanced versions
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Thinking about sapient corvids and domestication of other animals again and trying to figure which would work best.
Although I could do with feedback and suggestions and in general any form of input what so ever.

Domestication of wild cattle seems unlikely, the size difference is immense and corvids can't naturally digest lactose at any stage of development.
Similarly horses would appear to be too large to be truly domesticated by corvids, and for humans, domestication of horses started with hunting them.

Wild goats are smaller but they're highly wilful creatures and again, the lack of lactose tolerance at any stage of development might prevent their domestication.
Wild ancestors of sheep had different temperaments too, and wool is a post-domestication trait, although their skins might be valuable enough corvids would go through the great effort.
Pigs had as major advantage they seem to swap between wild and domesticated morphology easily and a more passive domestication that is feasible for smaller corvids might work, though pigs are generally only useful if they can be used for their meat, so any corvid trying for this would need to devise a way to reliably slaughter them
Vicuñas, if the corvids are successfully capable of expanding into their habitat, might also be worth the effort, similar to sheep, but they are still very large animals compared to corvids

Rabbits on the other hand, for mammals, would have little to no issue being domesticated by corvids, who might even interact with them better than humans due to more similar sizes
Cats, despite the cute videos of crows playing with cats, are simply too dangerous for them to actively pursue domesticating, to them a cat is as a tiger is to us, an exotic pet maybe, but not a readily domesticated animal
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For avian domestication, corvids of all sorts already seek out eggs for consumption, gaining a steady and reliable access to them through domesticated fowl, land or water, which can be fed on plant-based refuse the corvids do not (wish to) consume seems almost too obvious a path to follow
Similar to fowl, I can't find any obvious barriers to the domestication of pigeons for corvids either
Size difference is not sufficiently large that, while roosters are much more of a threat to corvids than they would be to us, it would be beyond reach of their intelligence and creativity to find a way around this
And in general when it comes to avian domestication, corvids being capable of flight themselves and with a much greater capacity to mimic bird calls, might even make several bird species that are uncommonly domesticated by humans at best, staples for any corvids
The taming of raptors might be possible, especially if the sapient corvids are on the larger end, similar to common ravens in size, since the common raven rarely sees predation by raptors as adults and the absence of obvious predator-prey relationship is a fairly basic necessity for domestication (similar to how wolves have no obvious predator-prey relationship with adult humans) and their use in hunting and even as flying beasts of burden (large raptors being capable of flight with loads significantly in excess of what even the strongest ravens can) would be an obvious advantage

On the insect side, domestication of honey bees and moths might actually happen even earlier than it did in humans, especially for bees the ability for corvids to keep bees in elevated positions for safety would make them even more expert beekeepers
And here also it would seem likely that they would domesticate several insects that are uncommonly kept by humans, corvids being natural insect eaters to a far greater degree than humans
>>
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And while I've skipped past a lot of potential domestic animals, the most prominent one I've skipped sofar is the most obvious one: the wolf
Ravens have already been observed to integrate themselves into wolf packs, wolves having no obvious predator-prey relationship with them and their cooperation giving mutual benefit, with ravens acting as aerial spotters for wolf herds
They even engage in play and other social interaction with wolf pups and as a result it might seem that domestication, despite their great size difference might, and would, be plausible
But here, I'd also like to suggest an alternative to domestication: mutualism at an evolutionary level
The path from any current extant corvids to a true cultured one with intelligence comparable to humans is still a long one, which leaves room for other animals to evolve alongside them
And in this I see the potential for the increasingly more intelligent corvids, which increasingly higher energy needs, to increase cooperation with wolves long before they reach the point they begin forming actual societies, and in turn cooperation with corvids being increasingly more beneficial to the pack and an increasingly greater selective pressure being exerted for docile behavior towards corvids and the shunning of individuals which harm their avian partners
This is of course speculative, but then again this is the right thread for speculation, however I see a world where by the time sapient corvids reach their true stone age, they have long since partnered up with what is by now a distinct canis subspecies separate from both wild wolves, but also not being dogs, in a relationship that is not quite domestication
Again though, all of this is personal rambling which I can easily be wrong about
>>
>>4925606
what environmental pressures would need to exist to push cats toward human-level intelligence?
>>
>>4925772
the extermination of everything bigger than a cat, which is never
>>
>>4894711
>WHAT IS SPECULATIVE EVOLUTION?
Nobody cares you fucking autistic genetic reject. Holy shit.
The list of autistic youtube/reddit/4chan shit that no employed sane person with a family cares about -

Liminal spaces
Minecraft / roblox / lego
SCP foundation
creepypasta
The Lost Media Wiki
speculative evolution
Franz Kafka
H.P.Lovecraft
Indie games
Sonic
Oneyplays
Gamegrumps
Destiny
Pokemon
Digimon
Furry shit
Hasbin Hotel
The Amazing Digital Circus
Mr Beast
Crypto
Forex
Nick Fuentes
Vaush
anime
pepe/basedjack
etc
>>
>>4925772
don't think there's any reasonable way for any felinae to reach human level intelligence without a long evolutionary process that changes them to a significant degree as to be almost unrecognizable as a cat purely through environmental pressures

That being said, the chance of humanity creating intelligent cats at one point is all but guaranteed as long as we don't blow ourselves up
>>
>>4925783
waow so many based subjects (minus nasty/degen cringe shit like Nick, Vaush, & crypto), thx fren.
>>
>>4925783
I'm married thobeit
>>
>>4925844
Intelligent animals are worse pets for wageslaves. People bred dogs to be dumber. Why would they breed an even dumber animal to be smarter?

Cats are so dumb they cam happily spend 20 years in an apartment with just one friend, a cat tree, and some string hanging from the ceiling to swat. Simple lives simple minds. Smarter cats would suffer like this. See anyone who owns a bigger cat species. They need yards, walks, and actual experiences like dogs.
>>
>>4925986
simply because if humanity doesn't blow itself up and keeps expanding, at a certain point the number of people who want intelligent cats will be bigger than the current population of earth and they'll have the means and ability to make it happen
>>
>>4925997
Humanity will blow itself up if it keeps expanding. The most optimistic space empire fiction still doesnt have room for dogs or cats, just tribbles.
>>
>>4926006
Data had a cat, a female one that even got pregnant on the Enterprise.
Archer had a beagle on his ship.
>>
>>4926016
I don’t watch star trek, i have sex. i just think tribbles are funny and a potential future evolution of either teacup poms or those really fucked up cats

based on their reproductive rate and purring, probably a type of cat
>>
>>4926006
having space for cats or dogs is literally the least concern for a space empire
room is the one thing they have almost infinite of
>>
>>4925313
Water is also 816 times denser than air.
>>
>>4900113
One of the major human characters in the books (world famous hunter) is trans this is a worldbuilding point in the first shortstory the character appears in (with a kaimere chud as the pov) (the tranny is an elf ripoff)
But who cares he only has like 2 videos where that is even mentioned
>>
>>4926134
Litre is a measurement of volume not density
>>
>>4920503
Just have a hothouse earth for a long time, with numerous mass extinction events hitting mammals hard, reptiles replace mammals in most niches. Only problem is mammals are masters of burrowing. So its hard to see a scenario where they disappear fully without birds also going.
>>
>>4925997
>if humanity doesn't blow itself up
>>4926006
>Humanity will blow itself up if it keeps expanding.
literally the lowest IQ stance you could have
>>
>>4920503
If all life was essentially wiped out on all the continents but a mega-new zeeland existed which had some survivors then birds could survive while mammals are gone. Since there would be no mammals on mega new zeeland to survive.
>>
>>4926186
even there unfortunately it wouldn't quite work because new zealand has native bats so there's no reason to assume a much larger version of new zealand also wouldn't have native bats

you might in that case end up with the incredibly weird situation where the only surviving mammals are marine mammals and bats and whatever happens to the resulting arms race to recolonize terrestrial niches
>>
>>4926187
Marine mammals are not surviving anything that kills most other mammals. They are all too big. Oceans are always hit hardest by such events anyhow. Bats are few enough that they could go extinct by chance. I think thats easy enough to believe
>>
>>4926184
and it's not as if mammals can't adapt to hothouse periods, early eocene was by literally every definition of the word a hothouse period and it saw massive diversification in mammals, even despite the presence of several different types of large reptilian predators
>>
>>4926188
bats are a very diverse, numerous and notably adaptable group of mammals though
and if the extinction event is of the sort where you have complete glaciation of all landmasses except for this mega new zealand, it could have a fairly large amount of survivors among marine life despite having 99% extinction rate among terrestrial vertebrates
>>
>>4926187
bats kept down by birds
>>
thoughts on Kappa so far?
>>
>>4926229
>>4922753
>>
>>4926198
bats are capable of coexisting and competing favorably with similarly sized birds, it's really fairly difficult to think of an extinction event that would wipe out all bats while not wiping all birds in the process
>>
>>4926273
If it gets really cold then bats would suffer tremendously since their wings can't have insulating fur on them unlike birds. So a couple flash freeze events could realistically do them in or cause their numbers to plummet into irrelevancy while birds dominate.
>>
>>4926273
>sapient corvids evolve
>corvid civilization develops a militant anti-bat ideology
>corvids exterminate all bats
>sudden superpandemic wipes out the sapient corvids so you don't need to keep them in your scenario
>>
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>>4900747
New episode, finally edited and all.
https://youtu.be/ANbgxJ7EnmM
>>
>>4900747
What's that one deviant art project?
>>
If you had to make a seed-world, what creatures would you put on it?
Sort of a weird one at first, but there's some potential in various skinks, by virtue of their reproductive methods ranging all the way from reptilian eggs to genuine placental viviparity
>>
>>4928353
always thought it would be fun to go with cuttlefish (trained to eat scallops) - scallops - those jellyfish that photosynthesize. And as little as I can otherwise. Like some algae and various plankton sure but make it really basic and alien. No life on land at first. You know.

do not steal my idea I might make something with it at some point
>>
>>4928353
I've been dreaming of the day where somebody would ask me this

>Vertebrates
>>
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>>4928929
>Invertebrates
>>
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>>4928931
>Flora
>>
>>4928888
didn't know there were photosynthetic jellyfish, that's pretty neat, thought that was just limited to those photosynthetic sea slugs
restarting the entire world without vertebrates absolutely would get alien very fast

>>4928929
>>4928931
>>4928933
really extensive list, lots of very interesting choices
only placental mammals being bats definitely would get unique fast
>>
>>4929008
What about only marine tetropods being snakes? Or only elasmobranch being a freshwater ray while the holocephali dominate the ocean? Or that same thing but with the lobe finned fishes taking over the oceans from the ray finned ones? I'm basically everything this guy >>4908390 hates.
>>
>>4929039
Not sure you are, it looks more like a dislike for spec-evo projects that just end up with slightly different versions of modern day creatures

with your project it would depend, like if your snakes ended up doing interesting snake things in the ocean that's fine, but if your snakes turn into baleen whales it's not
>>
>>4929089
Aren't mosasaurs just kinda big marine snakes anyhow?
>>
>>4929117
they're monitor lizards
like genuinely just giant marine monitor lizards
the sort of weird thing is that mosasaurs never re-evolved again because there's plenty of semi-aquatic monitor lizards
>>
>>4928353
I'm glad you asked
>Reptiles
Microraptor
Painted Turtles
Garter Snakes
Leopard Geckos
Orodromeus
Morrosaurus
Gigantophis
Sea Krait
Tuatara
Priosphenodon
Rahonavis
Austroraptor
Dimorphodon
Tapejara
Yutyrannus
Chinese Alligator
American Alligator
Northern Pacific Rattlesnakes
Mountain Dragon
Leatherback sea turtle
blotched blue-tongued lizard

>Birds
Psilopterus
Dinornis novaezealandiae
Emeus crassus
Anomalopteryx didiformis
Dinornis robustus
Emu
Lesser Rhea
Greater Rhea
Turkey
Pheasant
Teratornis
Blue Jay
New Zealand kākā
Kea
Kākāpō
Kiwi
Dark-eyed Junco
Cedar Waxwing
California Scrub-Jay
Yellow-rumped Warbler
Willow Ptarmigan
Trumpeter Swan
Sandhill Crane
Downy Woodpecker
Tinamou (All 6 species)
Upland goose
Chiloe wigeon
California quail
Andean flamingo
Andaen Condor

>Amphibians
crab-eating frog
Uranocentrodon
Giant Japanese Salamander
hellbender salamander
Prionosuchus
bull frog
red-eyed tree frog
grass frog
Columbia spotted frog

>Mammals
Steller's sea cow
Taeniolabis
Megatherium
Mylodon
Hesperotherium
Ancylotherium
Elk (Cervus canadensis
Moose (Alces alces)
White-tailed deer
Macrauchenia
Toxodon
Pacific Mastodon
Leptictidium
Marsupial mole
Ectypodus
Filikomys
Austrotriconodon
Cronopio
Coloniatherium
Sudamerica
Necrolestes
Short-Faced Kangaroo
Bobcat
Mountain Lion
Japanese macaque
Barbary macaque
Pronghorn
Forester Kangaroo
Platypus
Echidna
Cheetah
Blue Whale
>>
>>4929147
>Arthropods
Brine shrimp
Hover Fly
House Fly
Lady Butterfly
Dun-bar moth
Bluet Dragonfly
Bumble Bee
Buffalo Treehopper
Weta
Potato beetle
Crane fly
Giant Water Bug
Green Mantisfly
Jewel Beetle
Wolf Spider
Orb Weaver
Midge
King crab
Snow crab
Dungeness crab
Horseshoe Crab
Sheep Crab
Pacific Sand Crab
Fiddler crab
Brontoscorpio
Pterygotus
Anasobella asper

>Fish
Northern snakehead
Sockeye salmon
Pink salmon
Chinook salmon
Atlantic salmon
Brown trout
Atlantic hagfish
River lamprey
Ratfish
Atlantic sturgeon
Conger eel
Alligator Gar
Channel catfish
Roach
Tench
Bitterling
European pilchard
Freshwater sardine
Eusthenopteron
Kenichthys
Hyneria
Acanthostega
Gold Fish

>Flora
Diatoms (yes I know)
Everything found in Tasmania, New Zealand, Alaska, and Chile, Argentine Patagonia, and Northern California

The planet is roughly the same size as earth and has two supercontinents, one in the North and one in the South will start with a climate roughly similar to that of the Mid-Piacenzian Warm Period where it will stay for about 2 million years, before a near miss with large asteroid sees the rock get torn apart and turned into a ring around the planet which will result in a 20 million year long Ice Age.
>>
>>4929147
pretty extensive list, lots of interesting ones among it
20 million year ice age probably sees more than a little bit of extinction
>>
>>4929150
>20 million year ice age probably sees more than a little bit of extinction
It's based on the theory that the Hirnantian glaciation was caused Earth getting a ring after a near miss with an asteroid about the same size as the one that killed the dinosaurs.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X24004230

I tried to go with animals that are already more adapted to a cooler climate to give them a better shot to survive the initial climate change and radiate into new species during the glaciation. Unfortunately, most of the Multituberculates and Meridiolestids lived in fairly warm conditions, but given that they are small generalists, they'll probably be able to do okay, especially with no rodent competition.
>>
>>4929154
>https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0012821X24004230
that's pretty fascinating honestly
and also sorta funny about the multituberculates, given they're subject of an active spec-evo project
I guess roads not taken are always fascinating

also sort of unrelated a bit but with the blue-tongued lizard, if you're interested in viviparous lizards for spec evo, kinda hinted at it before but there's one that goes even further than it

Trachylepis ivensi isn't just viviparous, they have a full placenta complete with invasive chorion cells which is, effectively, identical in function to a mammalian placenta, it's eggs are effectively vestigial at this point and only exist to perform the function of the mammalian egg cell (they are 1mm size at max and contain no yolk)
>>
What genres of movies/games/comics/whatever work best for spec evo? Mocumentaries sure, but what gels best with this level of worldbuilding - the type that provides 0 motivations or characters or setpieces, and only maybe setpieces or set dressing? What are some spec evo projects you'd like to see explored in a medium in a non-mocumentary lens?

bonus points for not mentioning any really popular spec evo media like alien planet or subnautica
>>
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In the spirit of >>4931011
>>
Have ya'll ever went off the deepend with your discussions going over weird shit like what conditions would have to biologically met for a creature to naturally produce a beverage with the chemical makeup of soda?
>>
>>4900333
Ok so think of Earth but life never evolved past the Archean and early Proterozoic, plus theres no light so all life is stuck as simple chemosynthetic microbes.
>>
>>4931263
how deep does Jupiter's radiation penetrate into Europa? Could be funny if there was radiotrophic stuff there
>>
>>4931249
A couple times yea. One time I got really hung up on wanting to use seriemas but also not wanting them to be able to fly, so I came up with this elaborate lore where all the seed seriemas had a protein injected into them that altered their genetics and made their wings all shrimpy like a galapagos cormorant. I then thought "why the fuck am I doing this? This is retard." And stopped trying to make it work.
>>
>>4900333
The only way to make life evolve past simple microbes living in and around hydrothermal vents is to use hypotherical methods of energy production like kinetotrophs or magnetotrophs or thermotrophs or whatever.
>>
>>4900778
we love a nightmaw
>>
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Summary of my spec evo project
>>
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>find fun spec evo project
>creator starts getting attention
>he gets a boner from this
>now his pfp is a furry and he has they/them pronouns in bio
>>
>>4931419
wow based, link/source to this creator?
>>
>>4931528
the superliminality project or whatever it's called. Searching "golbo" on youtube should find it.
>>
>>4931380
Whats the premise?
>>
what if New Caledonia but big?
>>
>>4931643
What if you got a girlfriend?
>>
>>4931647
That's literally half you niggas.
>>
>>4931632
Basically an alternative timeline for the evolution of animals on Earth. Its basically "if _ was _!" but actually interesting.
>>
>>4931643
Giant skinks hunting giant geckos.
>>
>>4931380
id like to see where the psuedobilateria go
>>
>>4930655
bumping my question to bump the thread because it got covered up
>>
>>4931380
Why aren't you doing anything interesting with proarticulids?
>>
>>4932877
Sports movie with sentient crows
>>
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>>4933771
that sounds rad as hell, I'm writing that down and hope it gets made one day.
>>
>>4933771
honestly, it would be pretty fun to try and figure out what kind of sports crows would come up with

flight just changes things immensely
>>
>>4933298
Honestly this is a good idea. Take me like a day and I'll come up with maybe 3 or 4 phyla give or take.
>>
>>4933771
sapient* cows r already very much sentient
>>
>>4933987
https://www.manospondylus.com/2022/02/the-life-of-charnia-masoni-and-friends.html
You read this blogpost, it's very informative of this branch of life.
>>
>>4934053
shut it nerd
>>
>>4933298
Ok I actually got off my ass and did.
Behold: the Virozoans.
These are highly specialized and reduced parasites that have evolved to be similar to viruses. They also share many similarities with real-life myxozoans, which are also highly reduced parasites.
Virozoans live inside of other cells during their "larval" (archula and trypanula) stages. Some are anaerobic, meaning they can live without oxygen. Others can move around inside their host around during the adult stage.
The adult stage is what identifies them as being related to proarticulates. Most virozoan adults have glide symmetry, where they produce more trypanulas or archulas. They also retain the majority of cell types from when they were still free-living, such as glandular cells, amoebocytes, ciliated cells, etc.
>>
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>>4934742
Interesting way to go with it. Although with their only trait still connecting them to proarticulids being glide symmetry they could've easily been descended from petalonams too.
Planning anything with trilobozoa?
>>
Thought about the Bwik, Sapient Ducks descended from hybrids of these on a seedworld.
>>
>>4934746
Basically already did that with diplostomes and diplocephalians.
The thing with virozoans and how they evolved is that a petalonam is more equipped towards filter feeding than grazing microbial mats off the ground. A proarticulate is more placozoan than petalonams, so it would make more sense for them to evolve into virozoans rather than petalonams.
>>
>>4934771
>the Gugugligagabibuibbibwikwikbwikbiksluppyduppynanas
>a hybrid between key limes, moa dna extracted from a subfossil, and an armadillo
>it lives on the planet Whenua-4
>it's sapient and has bioengineered spaceships to colonize its moon
>they speak through their anus
>>
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>>4934998
No (You)!
>>
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>>4931380
drew a phyllozoan larva
>>
Are there any speculative fictions out there that deal with alternative dinosaurs or what they might've evolved into if not for the spicy space ball?
I'm a fa/tg/uy looking for inspiration and hoping to get a steer.
>>
>>4935416
oh boy are you in for a treat



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